I Gave Up My Cell Phone for One Year (Here's What Changed) | Tommy Short

What would happen if you put your cell phone away for an entire year?

In this episode of Books4Guys, Chris sits down with former Division I basketball referee, Olympic official, executive coach, keynote speaker, and author Tommy Short to discuss his remarkable experiment of living 365 days without a cell phone and the life-changing lessons that followed.

After spending nearly two decades officiating Division I college basketball and working on the international stage with FIBA and Team USA Basketball, Tommy realized the pursuit of excellence had come with a cost. Constant travel, endless connectivity, and always feeling "on call" were pulling him away from the people and moments that mattered most. That realization inspired an experiment that challenged nearly every modern habit—and ultimately became his book, The Call I Almost Missed: 365 Days Without a Cell Phone and What It Taught Me About Love, Presence, and the Lies We Live.

Chris and Tommy discuss presence, technology, ambition, family, purpose, success, and why so many of us spend our lives chasing someone else's definition of achievement. Tommy also shares the unexpected lessons he learned during his year offline, the importance of embracing boredom, how removing constant distraction unlocked greater creativity, and why identifying what truly matters is one of the most important exercises anyone can do.

Whether you're constantly attached to your phone, trying to create healthier boundaries, or simply looking to become more intentional with your time, this conversation will challenge the way you think about technology, relationships, and living a meaningful life. 

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  Why Tommy chose to live an entire year without a cell phone 
•  How technology quietly steals our attention and presence 
•  Why defining success for yourself is essential to living a fulfilled life 
•  The surprising benefits of boredom and uninterrupted thinking 
•  How removing distractions improved creativity and relationships 
•  The importance of identifying what truly matters before it's too late 
•  Why being fully present is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone 
•  The books that have had the biggest impact on Tommy's life 

https://tommyshort.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

No, nothing, nothing plan. How about you? No, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

I'm gonna hit up a pool and uh yeah, just try to stay cool. Watch some fireworks here in Nashville. Nashville does a pretty awesome job of a fireworks show, and you can see it really like anywhere around the city, just because it's kind of small and intimate in that way. And so uh we've got a kind of a little rooftop hangout area we'll go watch the fireworks on. But yeah, other than that, no man, just just chilling. We've been traveling too much recently. So but no, Tommy man, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. As dude, I didn't realize this. It's been close to two months since we first connected and uh I think you and I talked on the phone for man, 40, 45 minutes, just going back and forth. And uh my wife was actually riding with me. We were on a road trip, and she was like, That's I was like, that's gonna be a good conversation. I was like, I know, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

High expectations now.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, yeah. But no, man, I've got your book posted on the website and I've had it up there. And I want to make sure I I tell the audience what your book is. It's called The Call I Almost Missed: 365 Days Without a Cell Phone, and what it taught me about love, presence, and the lives we live. And man, jump right in because you have a really cool background. We talked a lot about, you know, you were a division one referee. You do a lot of things now as far as speaking goes and all of that. But man, share your story and share why you decided to put the phone down for a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah. So uh appreciate you having me on today. I probably would go back to sixth grade and how I got into officiating. I was actually a hothead. And if they would have kept track of technical fouls in sixth grade basketball, your boy over here was the league leader. But I always appreciated the referees who came over and and spoke to me. Now, I never agreed with one thing that they said, but I always just remember, you know, even at 12, just kind of filing that in the back of my mind and saying to myself, you know, one day that's that's what I want to do. I want to be one of the referees that interacts with with the kids and um has a conversation. And obviously the players aren't always going to agree, but at least, you know, have that empathy, have that human connection. And so it's kind of like anything else. You know, a lot of player or a lot of kids at a young age wanted to play in the NBA or, you know, you know, pick your sport. I was kind of a one of the select few that wanted to referee in the NBA and never wanted to play. And so fast forward, I started refereeing high school basketball at 18 and you know, little kids' games and was fortunate to get into college and division one for almost two decades. And in that time, is I see the USA hat today. Um, we'll just pretend that was in honor of of my USA Olympic career, but was fortunate to get into FIBA, and so FIBA, you know, World Cup going on right now, FIBA is is the equivalent of FIFA. So we do all the international games, do the Olympics. Um I was fortunate to work with our Olympic team in 2012, 2016, and then also during my stint was able to travel overseas to referee some international tournaments. So context to tell you how I got to the year without a phone. Retired in 2020. We had just had our first kid. It wasn't because of COVID. Just realized, and I'm sure we'll get into it today, I just saw um the trajectory I was on with my career. You know, a lot of times people will discuss, you know, the benefits of chasing something, uh, which is great, but you also have to look at the cost. And unfortunately, on the path and the trajectory that I was on, the cost was I wasn't gonna be home between October and March. And for any of your listeners out there, if you have kids, like for me, I just I didn't want to be a FaceTime dad. Like it's one thing when you're 18, 19 years old starting to get into officiating, but then when you're 36 and now you have family responsibilities, those two just didn't align. And so walked away in 2020. And how I got to the point without a phone is that I used to be attached to it, right? So we would do we were essentially independent contractors. So I was doing my own hotels, flights, rental cars, and then we would get our game assignments online, you know, through our phones. So there was an unwritten rule at the level I was in officiating that you always got to be by your phone because you never know when you're gonna get that call of, hey, I need you to go here. I know you were supposed to be here. And Chris, I would say in two decades, I probably got two of those calls. But it was always just this unwritten rule of, oh no, you you never want to miss a call. And so to close up that that first question, I just made a rule with myself. And then a lot of sleepless nights after games, being a type A perfectionist, wanting to review the film instead of going to sleep. Hey, what did I miss? What did I get right? What can I do better? Because, you know, as a division one ref, we're working essentially five, six nights a week, right? There's not a lot of days off during the season. And so when I retired, I made a rule with myself that if I'm not able to fall asleep within five minutes and I don't, I don't set a timer, but just kind of in my head, then I'm gonna physically leave my bed and and do one of two things and and read a a book, which is um, you know, perfect for for today's conversation, like an actual book, not a Kindle, not an iPad. Or uh I I will go down to my office and write either pen and paper or on my whiteboard. And so it was June of 2023, just couldn't fall asleep, and the idea popped in my head. What if you want a year without a out a cell phone? Which is just even wild three years later, which is crazy. I think it's been it was like three years ago, yesterday, that I had the idea. So that's how we got to the year without a phone.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Man, that's crazy. First off, I did wear the USA stuff, partially for this conversation and knowing the work you did with the Olympic athletes and obviously World Cups going on. It's 4th of July. I was like, oh yeah, today we're going, I got the golf polo on, got the USA hat, which was beautiful. So, but no, I mean, Tommy, you did something really hard, man. And I've had discussions really the last couple of weeks with some other guests, and we were talking about that fine line of being a very driven individual and constantly it's a good thing in some regards. You all you want to self-improve, you want to accomplish more things. Like that's what we are as humans. You're pushing the limits, you're, you're, you're doing, you don't want to get stale. But there's also that content factor you want to have as well, to where you're not sacrificing your family or things that are important and losing just the beauty of life and experiences because you're constantly just trying to watch film or you know, be stressed about this or that. And so I can imagine for someone like yourself, even you know, you seem like an individual, like once you have an idea and you and you're all in, you're gonna do it. So in one regard, I could see where it's kind of easy because I'm the same way. I can say I'm gonna do something crazy. And I was like, Yep, I'm doing it, I can cut it, no worries. But at the same time, too, with what you're accomplishing and the direction you're going, I'm sure there was a little bit there where you're like, man, this is a tough decision to throw, put the phone away completely and not have any interaction on there. I mean, I I can't fathom. I mean, I'm sure I could do it, but I don't even realize how many times I pick up my phone throughout the day. I'm sure it's hundreds of times. And I think you shared a stat with me when we first talked, like the average time a person picks up their phones, like in the hundreds, maybe it's more than that. 205. Yeah, crazy. And you don't even, yeah, I would never even imagine it because it's just so second nature now. But as you started the process, what were some things that were more difficult than you thought? And what were some things that were easier than you thought as you got into the journey of having no phone for the year?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Well, I can tell you the the first day the the girls were out in the yard, you know, kind of towards the end of the day, and kind of wrap up in my office and and head out there. I don't even remember what they were doing, Chris, but you know, my first instinct was, you know, as a parent, well, you gotta take a picture because if you don't capture the moment, you're gonna miss the memory. And I just remember like reaching in my pocket and I'm like, yeah, that's not there. You better get used to, you know, either go get one of those disposable, you know, Polaroids or just be in the moment. And that was really, that was the only, I don't want to say rule, but that was kind of the only task I set for myself during that year was just just be the most present person in every conversation, in every interaction, personal and professional. And so that was really the goal. You know, a couple funny stories. And I'm like you, and I I said, if I'm gonna do this, I'm going all in, right? So the only time that and and once I turned it off, it stayed in the office. So it's not like I put it in my car when I took the girls to school. I didn't travel with it. It was just staying at home. And the caveat was if there's a true, you're gonna dial 911 knot, someone's got a stomachache, um, you know, you know, uh just any other situation. But if there was a a legitimate life or death, right? And I think that's kind of the bigger thing, too, is is too often in life, like we let someone else's priorities or something that's quote unquote urgent become our emergencies. And unfortunately, like that's just it's not true. One, but two, that's just a a kind of a crappy way to live if you're always just on edge and oh my gosh, I'm gonna miss something. I'm gonna, you know, I always got to be on call, if you will. Um, and and ultimately that's kind of like the last thing that made me go all in. And I I have a permanent away message on my email and I tell my clients, like, I'm not a fireman, I'm not a policeman, and I'm not an EMT. There's nothing in my world that's an emergency, right? Like, and I'll get back to you within 48 hours with email because email is not a texting service as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, there was some, you know, also kind of funny story. I think it was like definitely within the first week, one of the things I didn't think about was two-step text authentication. So just for your listeners too, I didn't take any I I needed my laptop, you know, as an entrepreneur and virtual coaching and speaking engagements, but I didn't take anything on my phone over to my computer. So no iMessage, no podcast. Um, I, you know, I didn't take anything and just transfer it because that, you know, would have been defeating the purpose. So I was on online one night, like paying bills and uh on my credit card, and I got the thing from Chase that was like, we just texted you the six-digit coat. And I'm like, well, I guess I'm gonna spend tomorrow at Chase and verify my identity. And so yeah, it took like four hours in in a local Chase branch with like a 26-year-old who couldn't fathom and understand how I was going a full year without a cell phone. But he's like, well, just go turn it on. I'm like, you you don't understand. Like, I'm going a full year without a phone. And he's like, is someone making you do this? Like, are you in trouble? I'm like, no. I when I was your age, I, you know, I didn't really have a phone. So like I know how to survive without it. Yeah, I mean, there were some tough parts throughout. There were some things that you just didn't realize. But I think kind of to summarize that is that, you know, too often in life, and this was one of the takeaways I had, is that we have this big vision of the future and we don't pursue it because of little inconveniences in the present. But I always say, like, if it was, if it was easier, if if it was, there weren't gonna be bumps in the road, I bet a lot more people would pursue whatever it is that you that you're going after. And so you just have to accept that it's not gonna be perfect, there's gonna be a lot of bumps, but just taking action is better than no action and and then just kind of figuring it out as you go along.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah. I'm laughing because I I didn't even think about that. I could imagine at the bank, you know, blink once if you need me to call help for you. Are you in a bad situation?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, I had my passport, um, a couple credit cards, my ID. Yeah, it was quite the uh it was like people were like coming out of like different offices. Yeah, yeah. It was like the murmur of like, wait, someone's going a year without a phone. Like, who is this? Who is this?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, it's always pushing a piece of paper, like you need help, yes or no. But no, you're right, man. I mean, we uh man, I and I everyone is faulted for this. You know, an email comes through and you feel like you've got to answer immediately, and it's it and my wife and I talk about this all the time. We're like, it's not we go on a walk, you know, we're like, hey, put the phone down. Like, we don't need to answer the text or the email, like we can call them back. But we it's a constant reminder, we're having to bounce that off each other because we just get so caught up in work or or certain relationships that we just feel like you have to respond. And it's just because it's been ingrained in us over the years by having this device that we can do it so quickly, you feel like you have to do it so quickly, and you got to kind of rewire your brain to think differently. And you and you went to the extreme to do it. You know, most people will won't do it, can't, you know, not that they can't, they won't. So it's just a it's just a wild thing. And and then, yeah, the picture thing too. You see people like always taking videos and pictures. And I'm sitting here thinking, I I looked on my phone before this and I was like, I have like 12,000 photos, and I'm like, when's the last time that I've even gone back and looked at a photo from 2016? You know, I haven't. So, like, what's the point of wasting my time not being in the moment? Because you always feel better being in the moment than than not, you know, and you just feel kind of I feel like an idiot now sometimes. I'm getting my phone out taking a picture, and I'm like, gosh, just in just appreciate what my eyes are seeing. So I'm working on it. But Tommy, as you as you went through this journey, especially as you got like ingrained in it and you got used to it, you you know, you no longer even, I'm sure as you got a few months in, you're not even thinking about the phone anymore. I'd I'd, you know, I'd love to know too, just kind of like your your re-entry into the phone world, like some of the boundaries you set and what that was like. But what were, I mean, what was your key takeaways in month 11 and 12 as you started reflecting on your journey of everything? What were some things that you were like, man, this was amazing. People need to know, you know, about this, or or what were some things that you, I don't know, were surprised about?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah. So, you know, I had three main ones, and I I shared one in the in the previous question of, you know, too often we don't chase this big vision in the future because of little inconveniences in the present. So that would be one. Second takeaway, we're all waiting for a permission slip that only we can sign ourselves, meaning uh I gotta wait until my spouse says I can do this, I gotta wait until my boss says I can do this, I gotta wait until my parent. And it's like nobody is gonna sign that permission slip for you to chase, pursue, or go after whatever it is, a relationship, a dream, a job, doesn't matter. And so I think we're all just kind of like, when is someone gonna give me permission? And it's like everyone is just kind of in this dance of waiting to get that permission slip sign, but the only person that can sign it is us individually. And then the biggest takeaway, Chris, was and and it was, it was it was as if God gave me the takeaway and then was like, hey, now I'm gonna show you what that means. So the biggest takeaway was things that don't matter don't matter. Unfortunately, we never take the time to truly identify what does matter. So we spend a lot of our lives chasing someone else's version of success. And on the outside, it looks great. It's you know, six, seven figure income, multiple houses, all the vacations, and and nothing's wrong with that. Like I want all that too. But are you chasing success on your own terms? And have you even defined what success means to you? Not what it means to your fraternity brother, not what it means to your sibling, not what it means to your parents. Like, have you taken the time? And I will tell you, coaching successful executives, that is the most common thing, is that they've not taken the time to identify what success is. They just kind of go to school and then get in the job and pursue the next promotion, and everything's great. Um, but there's they always kind of feel like there's this, that there's something missing. And then to to tie that off on the things that don't matter. And you alluded to this in in your previous question about re-entry. So there was things that don't matter. And then so I went August 6th of 23 to August 6th of 24. And I would say the last two weeks or so, my mom was starting to get sick a little bit. Um, just she's starting to show some cognitive things that in the beginning at that time, kind of end of July of 24, were just kind of odd and like, hey, we should probably, because prior to that, no health issues. And so, hey, let's, you know, check with the primary care doc, and then hey, let's go see a specialist, this and that. And so I had this whole plan of when the year was over, like, hey, these are the new boundaries. Um, and that kind of all went out the window because five days after I turned my phone on, uh, my mom went in the hospital for 105 straight days and never came out, ended up passing away. And so that was really the um biggest test, if you will, of things that don't matter, don't matter. Well, now, you know, here's like 105 days, if you will, in school of being present, just being in the room with someone who at that time is also nonverbal. So it's not like you can have this conversation and never really had the full diagnosis of, you know, we were throwing darts at everything. And then so after that, now I'm kind of to the place where, and we can get into this about how, you know, the relationship with my phone, but I I the analogy I use with people because there aren't too many people I can that there's no one actually that I can talk to about this experience that that understands it. Uh but the analogy I use is like, I don't know if, you know, in Nashville, Best Buy, or just think about any really like brick and mortar store that sells flash green TVs, right? Like if you think about the first time you walked in there and every TV has National Geographic or some version of, you know, fish or animals or, you know, lions in the jungle, whatever. And it's just like this crystal clear 4K, and you're like, oh my gosh. The analogy I use is like, can you imagine seeing that and then going back to a black and white TV? You would never do that because you're like, why would I do that? Because I see this now and I see what what's out there. And so for me, yes, I still have a phone, but I just can't look at it the same way now because of what I went through for a year and how I just because I wasn't interacting with my phone every time I was in public or with friends and family, it's just like my awareness was through the roof because I when I got bored, I didn't have the phone to pull out of my pocket. When I was in a conversation and just got bored or just wanted, you know, if there was an uncomfortable part, you know, we can pull out our phone. But when you don't have that, you're almost forced, unless you walk away, to just kind of sit in that boredom. And so that was for me, I just, yes, it's a great tool. You can do amazing things. It can, you can buy things instantly. But I think too often we go through life and and we don't have that reckoning or that awareness of how much time we're just looking down and scrolling with our thumbs um aimlessly. And look, I I was as guilty as the rest of us before that, but now I just I can't look at it the same after what I went through.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah. No, and I was actually a question I was gonna ask you was obviously like we're we're trained now to always be stimulated. If we have like five seconds of boredom, it's like, hey, what's on Netflix? Hey, what's on my phone? Hey, let me do this, let me do that. Did you have some experiences in it and you kind of hinted at it? Did you notice any like cognitive improvements as far as like critical thinking or imagination building? Or were you able to, or or and or did you find yourself meeting new people, having conversations with somebody that like you're at the airport, you know, instead of just sitting there, like did you strike up a conversation? Like, what were some of those moments that you noticed you uh I guess took a step out on to do, or some of those again, the way you think? Like, what were some of those improvements because of not having the phone?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah. So I'll I'll get to that part on the back end. The first part, the thing that I noticed, and I talk about this in the book a little bit, I think it's one of those things subconsciously we all do or did, but again, when you don't have your phone and you're out in public, you just notice this like crazy. And I would I would challenge your listeners and even yourself, like next time you're either at Starbucks or getting coffee with somebody or you know, uh having lunch or dinner, when there's more than one person, at least two people, and one of the people gets up to go to the bathroom, what do you think the first thing is the other person does? 99% of the time.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Grabs their phone, grabs their phone.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. And I don't think I either realized I did that or noticed it, but it was like without fail. That was the first, like someone gets up just to go to the bathroom, and then like you just said, like you can't sit with your own thoughts for 90 seconds. Um, so that that was the first thing that just really blew my mind of how often people do that. And then the the other thing remind me of the the other part of the because I I remembered that. Oh, what did I know? You know, the average person, I don't talk about this in the book because my book turned more into a memoir slash manifesto, as the publisher called it. So there I don't, I don't do you know, list research, I don't list the numbers, but we alluded to it earlier. The average person is gonna check their phone 205 times a day. So if you get just the average seven hours of sleep, that means you're reaching for that thing every five minutes when you're awake. And obviously we're in meetings or we're doing stuff, so there's gonna be certain times when we're not. So that means there's other times when it's like every 30 seconds, every 60 seconds, every 90 seconds. So just realizing I didn't have that ability. And then the average person is on their phone non-work related. The latest statistics I've seen is like four and a half hours. So I essentially got 68 extra days during that year. And so yeah, I noticed well, the two things. One, my creativity because I wasn't filling it with crap, right? Just on a whim. There was a lot of silence, obviously. Um it's not like I did, I obviously I had my laptop, I watched movies with the girls, it's not like I went entirely without screens. But but I noticed just just and you alluded to it, the cognitive thinking, the ability to just come up with thoughts, the ability to sit there in silence and and creative. And I the other thing too that was bizarre that I never realized so because I left it at home the entire time, there would be days when, you know, I'm taking the girls to school or just going to a meeting wherever, going to the airport. And on one hand it was like, wow, this is a completely freeing feeling because there's nobody in the world right now that can get a hold of me. But on the other end of the spectrum, almost within the same thought, it's like, holy crap, God forbid something happens. There's no way I can get a hold of anybody in the world. So it was like total freedom and total isolation all within the same thought and car ride. And that was a wild experience to continuously experience that day after day.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine man. And I and it's easy to say, you know, hey, back in the day when you only had landlines, like that's kind of I find myself talking about that all the time. I'm like, man, I wish we just had landlines and then catch me when I'm at home, but if I'm driving like nobody can get a hold of me, it would be so nice. But at the same time too, it's like you, you know, if if my dad has an accident, you know, I want someone to be able to get a hold of me and me be able to react quickly and and, you know, be on my toes in that moment. But yeah, man, it's just a weird place we're in because and technology is just moving faster and faster and faster. And I mean it's not just phones now. It's watches, it's glasses, it's all these things that keep us connected every second of the day. And you've got to be very intentional about setting those limitations to where you can be present and it get it just getting harder and harder. And I think I don't I mean man, I don't think there's a better time for your book to come out to just to kind of challenge people to be more intentional about that. And you hear it, I I think people know maybe now more than ever of just the importance of trying to be a little more present in in work and family. Like I hear the conversations from people all the time. It's difficult. But I think the the notion is there of like hey I'm I'm too connected. I need to figure out especially young people man we've got some young I even have some young neighbors and they're the best they're like dude I don't want my phone like I I don't want to be yeah I think you have like two ends of the spectrum you've got obviously like influence and let's record everything but then I've seen this group of people too where they're like yeah man I don't I don't want to be that connected I want to be more just me and free and talk and and how and it you know a lot of it probably came out of COVID too you know kind of a weird being shut out of that that social scene for a while I've seen you know young people want to go in the office more they want to be around people more. And I think that's refreshing. I think it's a very positive thing that we're seeing and I and I digress but I'm just thinking in general of all this stuff with connectivity and just the things that are out there and what we're seeing. But Tommy if as people read your book, I mean you're coaching people on this and and I've got a couple other questions I'm thinking of for you but if if someone doesn't take anything away from your book except just one nugget of information, what do you hope that one nugget is that sits with them that they take away?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

I would go back to my number one takeaway that things that don't matter don't matter. And as a I think we're similar, you know, type A wanting to go after everything but at the same time finding some sort of balance on the home front but for me is just if nobody took anything else away to sit back and take some time and identify what truly matters in their life. Just take blank paper just start there. And then even with the question that that I often ask my clients is like what's your definition definition of success? Are we even spending our time on something that we want do we even want the next promotion? Do we want the next title? What what is it that we and if you want that that's fine. I'm not here to judge I think what I always say too is like I'm not against the use of cell phones by any means. Like I think that would be tone deaf if I just came out and was like cell phones are bad. If you use a cell phone you know you're you're terrible person. But what I am against is burdening regret that may or may not surface for 15 or 20 years and then you look back on your life and you had eight hours of screen time but you weren't present for your kids or and and not not the big moments right like you understand too it's it's the random Tuesday nights. And I and I talk about in the book, you know, for anyone who's like well I don't even know where to start just find five minutes. And it seems so small but if it if you try to go cold turkey and do something like I did you're going to get frustrated and and just go back to your old ways. But just find little five minute segments whether it's with your kids, your spouse, whoever your colleagues and just start there and just be fully present and fully invested and and and listen to that person to understand what they're saying, not to reply. Because too often when we're in a conversation, we're listening so that I can tell Chris how great I am or as soon as I see Chris's lips stop moving, well I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna one up you and tell you about my vacation or it's just like no, just put put your ego aside and just listen to truly understand because that's the common or theme with all humans is like we just want to be understood. Whether you know agnostic of race, religion, sex like everyone just wants to feel understood. And and that was that was my big takeaway and just having random conversations during that year with people of you know obviously you would get the the crazy looks of like you're doing what? Right. You know, it started with this curiosity and then it's like how are you doing logistics and and that whole conversation but yeah just just take time to understand what matters in your own life because at the end of the day everyone has their own stuff going on and no one really is worried about what matters to Chris. No one gives two rips about what matters to Tommy but are you taking the time to identify what matters to you because that's that's the only thing that's going to matter at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah I love that obviously you're you know you're in a new not new but a different chapter of life than where you were at you know refing division one basketball games you know with with a focus on family and obviously you're you're coaching people now and you've got your book out. Do you uh do you foresee yourself down the road when when your kids are grown like reentering back into the sports space of of wanting to go back and ref again or is that something that's like it was cool I did it chapter closed yeah um I appreciate the question and people ask me that often and the short answer is no and I still miss the actual game.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I don't miss the 4 a.m wake up calls I don't miss being in a different city every night I do miss the perks of like the miles and the uh hotel points I do miss that. But again that you know like I started our conversation the benefit and the cost but the real reason why I I want to tell myself I could get back into it, Chris, but I know how much time and effort I invested on a daily basis like daily basis. We're talking north of four hours a day every single day in the case book in the rule book watching film prior to prioritizing nutrition and and extra I just like the level I was at just from a personal investment there's just no way I could just start you know this will be my I think next this upcoming college basketball season will be my seventh out of the game like you just it's kind of like when and I I this is kind of blasphemy but like even when MJ came back it he just wasn't the same. Right. And I know that's he's the goat and I'm trying I'm not comparing myself to that but just imagine if if a professional athlete just took seven years off. Yeah. Now I bet if I went back in the lab, if you will and really just but I don't I'm just at a I I've made peace of where that part of my life story took me. And as I look back, everything I did on the officiating court set me up for speaking, set me up for coaching, set me up for writing because I I often tell people it it was like getting a PhD in human behavior, how to be a great teammate, how to be decisive, how to take action, how to resolve heated conversations, how to perform under pressure when you've got all this noise literally and figuratively. So I I was you know kind of mad when I walked away because I'm like man I just invested almost 20 years of my life but I needed to separate myself from that space and and realize hey there's still a lot that I can take forward in this second mountain in this you know next part of my life journey career journey. But no I just I couldn't go back just because of and people have even asked would you go back and do like high school? No ego and pride I was I was making like $3500 a game on ESPN like I can't go back and make $50 you know at a high school game. I'll end with this like I wouldn't get back and honestly like the only thing I will not let my girls do, I wouldn't let my girls get into any form of officiating because parents are just whack jobs. I mean parents are out they're gonna ruin youth sports if they don't um get a handle on it. And so that's literally the only anything the girls want to do I will support them. I would never let them get into officiating.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah. No and I my wife coaches volleyball for 14 years went to three state championships and then she she stepped down for part partially that reason parents just being so involved now too involved ruining it for the kids just not letting them you know enjoy it. I mean things have changed you know a lot over but I'm glad you answered that question the way you did because I didn't think you were going to say yeah you want to get back into it. I just think you added to what you've already stated as you have new purpose you have new things you want to accomplish and achieve you're not chasing something because you think other people want you to or you think you should do like you've you've assessed what you want to do in life and where you want to be and and how you want to do it and so and you're taking that action to do it. A lot of people don't do that. They state doing something that they're comfortable they you know they're willing to sacrifice certain things and they just at the end of the I don't know 20 years that I bet there's a lot of people that look back and go like dang why'd I do that like I didn't even like doing that. I wish I would have done this. And you're minimizing those potential regrets you know down the road and I think more people need to hear that and approach life that way man life is so short. You know you got only so much time and if there's something you're passionate about and you and that wakes you up in the morning like man that's probably what you should be putting your energy towards because you you're not going to have all the time in the world to go do it. So I love that you answered it that way. Absolutely one last question for you Tommy I uh man I love this conversation again I love sports I love learning about you and like what you got to do then I love learning what you're doing now and just the impact you're having um but this question is specifically for uh you know books for guys purposes I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally and what's a book that you love to recommend to others uh can I give you three?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Man bring them on okay so favorite book of all time The Alchemist that was actually a gift to all the groomsmen in my wedding um and it's probably the number one book that I've there there's certain books I don't know if you're like this Chris that I will just I actually got this from my chiropractor there's certain books that I will just always have 10 15 copies on hand but I also one caveat if someone asked me I think before in life if somebody was like hey do you have a book recommendation I would just hand out a a blind book but now I I take a pause and I'm like hey what are what's what's top of mind right now like what are is there something like you've been thinking about or is there something and if not like I'll just I'll give you one that means a lot to me but I had a mentor share that with me and that really struck a chord with me as opposed to just giving out blind book recommendations. It was hey what's you know what are you thinking about what's top of mind but um so alchemist number one number two a man's search for meaning and the reason that book for your listeners so Victor Frankel was a psychiatrist and he was in the concentration camps with his family and had his entire life's work um stolen from him and as he's in the concentration camp just rewrites everything. And so the first half of that book is all the atrocities that he went through and his family and then the second half is essentially his you know life work that he rewrote. But when I was in college I took an international communications class and part of the reason I went there was it was in Poland and we got to go to Auschwitz in Birkenau. And so just being there firsthand to see all that and then reading that book I think obviously the book on its own has a uh a special place in my heart but then to actually be where he was is a completely different one. And then the third one I would say is the last lecture by Randy Posh. Have you read that one? Are you familiar with that? So I don't know if this is a thing that all professors do or they just did it at Columbia but he was retiring and so he's gonna give his last lecture and so it's kind of a pump fake because he has stage four cancer. And so the last lecture that he gives it's a great YouTube video and one of his friends actually after that lecture said hey we got to turn this into a book as he's dying and he's like nobody's gonna want to read this and he was like you you need to and so essentially his last lecture was he either had three or four kids. His last lecture was going to be all the stuff that he would never be able to teach his kids because he was you know death was inevitable for him. And so from that last lecture they he turns it in into a book. So I would say those those three books The Alchemist A Man's Search for Meaning and and the last lecture by Randy Posh.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Man great recommendations. I definitely want to read that last one I'm gonna look that up when we get off here and see if I can find that YouTube video that that seems very fascinating to me. But Tommy man thank you so much for coming on here and just just sharing your story sharing your story sharing sharing where your life's at now your experiences and uh and what you're doing man you've got so much I you can just hear the passion and the joy coming out of your voice and and what you're doing now and I'm so glad that we got connected because I can't wait to see all the amazing things that you continue to do and accomplish out there man and so thank you for being a part of the the Books for Guys journey with me. We're always here to support you any way that we can and man just can't say thank you enough. This was a fantastic conversation. I appreciate it Chris thanks for having me. Absolutely man thanks Tommy