Paging Dr. Mom
I was a medical student with two kids, trying to keep it all together. I constantly felt like I had to defend my decision to chase a meaningful career and raise a family at the same time. But professional women with children shouldn’t have to choose between ambition and motherhood.
Paging Dr. Mom is a podcast for the women doing it all and wondering if it’s ever enough. If you’ve ever felt the pressure to be everything to everyone, this space is for you. I’m Dr. Angelle Downey, a family physician, single mom, and host who believes we can thrive, not just survive, through the chaos.
With real talk, expert insights, honest stories, and a few good laughs, we’ll navigate the mental load, burnout, identity shifts, guilt, and joy that come with being a high-achieving woman in a messy, beautiful life. Together, we’ll cry, connect, and grow into the strong, wise women our kids are watching us become.
Let’s build a life we don’t need to apologize for and actually love living.
Paging Dr. Mom
5: Parenting Through Overwhelm: How to Handle Disrespect, Parental Alienation, and BFRBs with Laura Hobson
In this episode, I sit down with Laura Hobson (@hopeandhealingcoach), a BFRB and habit coach who combines her background as a mental health clinician with her own journey through burnout and motherhood. Laura shares practical tools for handling disrespectful behavior, coping with the heartbreak of parental alienation, and supporting kids who struggle with hair pulling or skin picking, all while reminding us that self-compassion and letting go of comparison are key to thriving as parents. Connect with Laura on Facebook and Instagram, grab her freebie “5 Unexpected Ways to Hack Your Habit,” and learn more at hopeandhealingcoach.com.
This episode includes a paid partnership with BetterHelp. Click the link, betterhelp.com/drdowney, to get 10% off your first month.
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🎵 Music: Upbeat Strings by Evan MacDonald
In today's conversation with Laura Hobson, we're diving into so many things that are going to hit close to home for all of us how to respond when our kids are being disrespectful, what to do when you notice your child pulling their hair or picking their skin, and how parents can cope with the heartbreak of parental alienation. Laura also shares her own story of burnout, the lessons that she learned about boundaries and self-compassion, and why letting go of comparison is one of the most freeing things that we can do as moms. There's so much wisdom packed into this episode. You definitely don't want to miss it.
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, I'm Dr Angela Downey and this is Paging Dr Mom, the podcast for women who are juggling careers, kids, chaos and cold cups of coffee. We're talking about the real life behind the resumes, the messy moments, big feelings and how to stay human when you're doing all the things. If you've ever felt like the only one trying to keep it together, you're not. We're going to laugh, cry, vent and thrive together. So here we go. Hello to all my busy mamas. I'm Dr Angela Downey and I'm so glad that you're hanging out with me on Paging Dr Mom. This podcast is for all of us who are just trying to keep it together while juggling kids, careers and whatever else life throws our way. Each week I'll be chatting with some other busy women out there who really get it. We'll have some laughs and we're going to talk about those parts of motherhood that we definitely aren't going to be putting on our resumes. So if you're a little overwhelmed, feeling a little tired or just need to hear someone say that I'm with you, then you're in the right place.
Speaker 1:My guest today is Laura Hobson. Laura is a body-focused repetitive behavior and habit coach who helps people break free from unwanted behaviors so that they can take control of their life again. At Hope and Healing, she combines years of experience as a mental health clinician with deep empathy to guide clients towards lasting change, specializing in body-focused repetitive behaviors or BFRBs, such as hair pulling or skin picking, as well as other frustrating behaviors including stress, eating and procrastination. When she's not empowering clients to embrace radical self-acceptance, you'll hear her advocating for BFRB awareness, tending to her ever-growing plant collection or spending time with her two sons and husband. Hi, laura, it's great to have you on Paging Dr Mom today. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I am doing well and I'm so excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to have you here with us today, because the things that you talk about are so real and they're things that many of us feel like feeling overwhelmed at home and at work, and dealing with those tough parenting moments, and learning how to let go of comparing ourselves to others. I know that I need these reminders for myself, and my audience is going to find that your insights are both practical and super comforting. So, laura, I'd love to start with your story. You've worked as a mental health clinician and now as a habit coach. Can you share a bit about how your own experiences as mom and your profession shaped how you work and the things that you're doing today?
Speaker 2:Yes, so to give a bit of a background, I am a physician assistant in psychiatry and I ended up going that route in part because it was a real period of growth in my own life where I was coming to terms with my own trichotillomania, or hair pulling, and so it felt like a good fit for me to go in that field, both so I could learn how to help myself as well as take some of that information and help other people. So along that, you know parenting I think the things that have been most helpful in the coaching and in working in psychiatry. Parenting teaches us that we really don't have control over as much as we think we do. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I don't know about you, but I know I was one of those parents before I had kids that I was like here's how I'm going to do it with my kids and I'm going to set boundaries, and I'm going to this and that, and then you have kids and it all goes out the window, right?
Speaker 2:You realize that there's so much that you don't really have control over, yeah, and so I think that's been one of my really big lessons that helps me both, you know, as a mental health clinician and as a coach, is I've done a lot of work realizing what I can and can't control and so handing that over to other people. So much of our distress comes from trying to control things that aren't really ours to control, and so we can, when we can drop that struggle and set that down and say this is not mine to carry and I'm going to open my, I'm going to do the best I can but open myself up to possibilities that are maybe not ideal, that aren't my preference. We really we really allow ourselves to focus more on the stuff that we can control, which is my own emotions and healing my own wounds and showing up for my kids and parenting the way that I want to parent, instead of reacting like and the kind of parent that I wanted to be.
Speaker 1:And you know, life gets in the way, life gets really messy sometimes and I didn't always show up the way I wanted to. And you're right, you can't control all situations and you've got this little being who's got their own thoughts and ideas as to what they want to have happen. So you can't control other people, people and it's hard to let go of that sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so important with kids to let them be themselves, right. Obviously we have to keep them out of danger, right? But so often as parents, we've got our ideas of how we want it to be and then our kids want it to be something else. No-transcript that fostering that authenticity is really important, both as a mental health clinician and as a coach, and even as myself reminding myself so you shared that at one point you burned out trying to keep up with your colleagues.
Speaker 1:Is this something that you're OK talking about? Yeah, absolutely Can you share a little bit about that and what did you learn from it and what boundaries did you set for yourself to help get out?
Speaker 2:Yes, and so I also want to say the boundaries is something and I'll give a couple of examples but I want to say boundaries is something that I am still working at. It's something that I've come a really long way, especially in the past 10 years, and I recognize that there is more work to do. So I can absolutely give examples, but I want to be clear that I'm not at all saying I've got it figured out and I'm a pro at boundaries. I'm not. I may never be Right.
Speaker 2:So I remember one of my really big times of burnout. It was kind of we were a bit into COVID and in behavioral health. We were all doing telehealth, we were doing video visits, and so it became really easy to add somebody on at the start of my day or add somebody on at the end of the day, or maybe two people on at the end of the day, because I was home all the time. What did it matter? Whether I was in my office for an extra half an hour, hour or whatever, and that really started to pile up and I realized that I it just wasn't sustainable, and so thankfully, I was able to make adjustments to my schedule. I don't know if your schedule is the same, but anytime I make adjustments to my schedule, I don't always see the effects of them until a month or two or three down the road. It's not something where I can say I'm going to see fewer patients and magically next week that's what happens, right? So it did take some time, but that really helped me to use those boundaries to bookend my day, to say no, I really said this is my start time and I really said this is my stop time, and I need to be true to myself in sticking to that.
Speaker 2:The next one that really came, where I really had to evaluate it was I was just I was getting to the end of the day and had all these charts and I would go into the weekend with so many charts that needed to be done and I realized and I guess I should also throw in there I have ADHD and so this is something that I've been working to modify my environment to meet my brain's needs.
Speaker 2:But that definitely plays a role, and I for many, many years tried to fix my brain to meet my environment and other people's expectations, and so this was one of those moments where I dropped that struggle and I said no, I really need breaks during the day.
Speaker 2:So I redid my schedule so that I work in two-hour chunks now, and so that's 90 minutes of seeing a patient whether that is, you know, several follow-ups, or whether that is a new patient and then a half an hour for charting catch-up, responding.
Speaker 2:Nobody else in my office does that, and I had to sit with that discomfort of saying, no, I really need this extra time, I can't keep going without these breaks, because I get to the end of the day and I'm just done. And so that was another time where I really carved out time for myself and again had to wrestle with that idea of it's not what everybody else is doing, but this is what I need, and I can be amazing without being like everyone else. So often we think that for us to be doing well or to be good at something, we have to be well compared to someone else in this particular area or this particular category, and so a bit of it is dropping that struggle and putting down that fight of trying to be like everyone else, when my brain just doesn't work like everyone else's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've tried doing something similar where I've put 15 minute break in the middle of my morning and then I kind of feel guilty sometimes. I feel like, you know, rest isn't productive and I feel this need to constantly keep going. So I'll take a walk-in patient or, you know, I'll fill up that space and then I end up resenting it later. Right, I get tired and I'm like, why didn't I just take that break? But when I'm in that moment it's hard and I feel guilty sometimes and I need to like actively talk to myself and remind myself that it's okay to rest. And you're right, sometimes we compare ourselves to our colleagues who are, you know, seeing more patients in a day than we are. But it is okay to rest, but I need to tell myself that like all the time, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that guilt is something that I really did struggle with in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Now that I've been doing this for several years I've come to terms with it, but truly in the beginning I did have some guilt that I could be seeing more people or, you know, I could be doing more work or you know, for my specialty or something along those lines. And there really is a bit of wrestling with that and reminding myself that I am worth showing up for myself and no one else is going to carve out that time for me but me, and no one else is going to step in and say, hey, laura, you're drowning. Only I can do that, and so that's something that helps me remind myself, when that guilt kind of creeps in a little bit, to say no, no one's going to do this but me, and if I don't say I need this space, if I don't say I need these breaks, it's not going to happen and I'm going to burn out and I'm going to be less effective as a parent or a provider or a coach because I haven't met my own needs first.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely. Can you talk about maybe, how self-compassion helped you get through some of those times of burnout? Yes, so.
Speaker 2:I'm really, really big on self-compassion and this is something that has really grown over time, and so self-compassion for me again looks like putting down that struggle, and so often we have this idea of I have to do all of these things or it has to be this way. And I remember even talking to my husband once, feeling really frustrated and even saying something to the effect of if I don't do all these things, the wheels fall off and we crash and it's all over with right. There was so much pressure that I felt to keep all the balls in the air, and so self-compassion for me looks like no, I don't have to force myself into this list of things to do. I can take a break. I can, when I start to realize that I'm overwhelmed, go take 15 minutes to meditate or go water my plants or go just sit outside. And so self-compassion for me looks like really opening up and listening to what my body is telling me I need, rather than me deciding what it needs and then trying to force myself into that.
Speaker 2:And also some self-talk and telling myself you're doing the best you can, Even when it feels like the world is telling you you're not trying hard enough. One of the things that I often tell clients or patients. If you are telling yourself to try harder, you are already giving 110%. There is no more to give, and I know that because if you weren't already giving it, you would put that effort in right. So anytime I'm telling myself I need to try harder, I need to give more, I try to pause and I'm like nope, that's my signal that I'm already giving all that I have and then some, and it's not that I need to try harder, it's that I need to give myself some more space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting that sometimes I find it difficult to take 10 minutes to go and meditate or just go sit outside and breathe some fresh air.
Speaker 1:So, I struggle with taking that time, but yet I will easily find myself scrolling social media for like 20 minutes and getting lost in my phone. And it's important to realize that there are these periods of time in the day where you do have some time to do meditation or breath work, if that's something that you want to do, and to do something that's good for you, instead of just mindlessly scrolling social media.
Speaker 2:And I try to work it in through my day as well. I would say probably like 20 to 30 times a day. I pause to just take a big deep breath in and then sigh it out. Sometimes it's like a loud, audible sigh. That's okay, whatever comes out is fine, and so I do try to do that. I try to check in with myself regularly to see where are my shoulders.
Speaker 2:Most of the time they're up here, and so check in with myself and relax my shoulders and relax my jaw, and so that's something that I have kind of trained myself, so to speak, to do. It didn't come easily. This is like years of reminding myself over and over, but now it's become second nature to where I just notice to check in with myself multiple times a day to see where I'm at. The other thing I think is important is that we often think we need more time to get it all done. We don't actually need more time to do all the things. We need fewer things to fill up the time. And so, looking at it from that angle right, rather than how do I find 10 more minutes to, you know, to sit down and give myself rest and meditate, instead saying how do I eliminate 10 minutes of something so that I can create space for this thing that I know I'm going to feel better if I can just give myself the ability to pause.
Speaker 1:No, that's a really, really good point, because I'm always looking for extra time. But you're right, there are things that I can get off my plate and to find that extra time. So a lot of moms feel pressure to do everything perfectly, you know, to be ambitious at work, to be present at home and not drop a single ball. So you've said we can't do it all, and that's OK. So how can moms start to really embrace that truth without feeling guilty?
Speaker 2:It's unrealistic for us to expect that the guilt is not going to be there, but I do think that one of the greatest lies that we have been told as women is that we can have everything, and I believe that we can have anything we want, but we can't have everything we want.
Speaker 2:We really do have to pick and choose, and it's important to remember that every time we say yes to something that isn't really that important to us or isn't aligned with our values or goals, we are saying no to ourselves, or we are saying no to our kids, or whatever the case may be. But that's something that, for me, helps. It's a mindset shift that helps me decrease that guilt that I have to leave space for me, and every time I say yes to that thing, I'm saying no to myself, right? I think it also helps. A lot of times we feel guilty at the person or organization or whatever it is for saying no, and so one of my tricks there, my kind of hacks to make it feel less guilty, is to say not now, or we kind of leave the door open for opportunities later, versus saying no. That tends to make us feel a bit more guilty.
Speaker 1:So it also buys you a little bit of time to come up with. Is this something that I really want? Is this something I have the energy for? And if the answer is going to be no. How am I going to tell this person no, so saying not now or, you know, thanks for thinking of me and I'll get back to you. It just buys you that space to really sit with it and figure out if this is the right thing for you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So parenting kids can be really, really hard and sometimes you being a behavioral coach kids they talk back or they act disrespectfully towards their parents so and that can feel really triggering for patients and it hurts and it sucks, and especially when we're already stretched pretty thin. Our patience sometimes is razor thin because we've had a really busy day or we're feeling burnt out. Is razor thin because we've had a really busy day or we're feeling burnt out. So what's your advice for handling moments, those moments where your kids are being disrespectful, without escalating that conflict?
Speaker 2:Yes. So with that I try to remember, first and foremost, all behavior is communication, and so if my kids are being disrespectful, that communicates to me that they are feeling dysregulated, that there's some emotional imbalance or some emotional need that is not being met for them, and so I think that helps take away some of the like. We tend to take it personally right, like if our kids are disrespectful to us or talk back to us, we tend to take it as a you know, we take personal offense to it and we think that it says something about us. It says nothing about us and it says everything about where they are at in that moment. And their kids, their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed and they do not have the ability to regulate their emotions. And so I've got to give them a little bit of grace and space for that right. That's not to say that they can walk all over me, but some grace that they're going to need coaching to help manage their emotions. And so in those situations, first I take a deep breath and I think everybody in my house knows that when I am most frustrated is when I'm talking and I stop right, take a deep breath and I blow it out and that amount of time really is incredibly valuable for giving me the space to respond instead of react. It might not seem like that one or two seconds is that much, but it really, really helps me come at it from a place of compassion and trying to connect and then redirect. Because what happens in those situations is kids need us to connect with them, they need us to help co-regulate, they need to see us being calm in this situation, to know that it's okay to be calm when there's conflict, right?
Speaker 2:So many kids grow up in environments where they don't learn that it's OK to be calm in conflict. They learn that conflict means raised voices and sometimes even more than that, right? So when we demonstrate that for our kids that I am frustrated and I can articulate that I'm frustrated and remain calm, that helps them learn how to manage conflict. Them learn how to manage conflict and if you can't be calm, then walk away.
Speaker 2:There have been times with my kids where I've been like I need a minute and I walk out of the you know, walk out of the room and I give myself some time to think, and so that's not to say that I've never yelled and that's not to say that I've never done anything, that I didn't go back to my kids later and say you know what I don't like, how I handled that If I could have a do-over, this is what I would do differently, right? So I'm not at all saying that I'm perfect, but there have definitely been times when I can have the awareness that I'm about to say something that I regret and step out of the room for a minute, breathe. Tell my kids that you know we'll talk about this in a minute. I need a minute.
Speaker 1:There's two things there that you said that really resonated with me, the first one being just taking that breath. One, because you want your child to be able to see what it's like to manage problems when you're calm. But you need to regulate your emotions as well and remind yourself this is not something against me, right? This is not something against me, right? So you need to be able to have that time to figure out how you're going to manage your emotions before you can address anything with your child.
Speaker 1:The other thing that really resonated with me is when you tell your child that you need that time. You actually tell them I need a minute to think about this. And you walked away. You didn't just turn your back on them and completely left them in the dark wondering like what's going on? What did I do? Why is mom not talking to me? Right? You've told them, you've communicated that you need a little bit of time and that you're going to be back. I think it's really important for kids to know that you're not just ditching them, that you are going to come back and that it's OK to take that minute, so basically giving the silent treatment which is just so harmful. So I love that you know you say I need one minute to process this, I will be back, and I think that that's way better than a parent just kind of like staring blankly at a child and then turning their back and walking away, because it's okay to need time to process these things, but not alienate your child.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Speaking of alienation, one thing that we were talking about before was parental alienation and how tough that can be on a parent when your child is refusing to connect with you or they're refusing to speak with you. So for those living with the heartbreak of having a child who just doesn't want anything to do with them, how can they make sense of their child's behavior and how can they protect their own mental health in the process?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I also want to say to anybody else who is struggling with this that my heart goes out to them. This was something that I didn't even know existed until it was in my lap, and it's been, you know, the most heartbreaking thing of my life, honestly, and so I just want to say my heart goes out to those parents AF that help parents who are targets of parental alienation, and so one of the pieces of advice I would say is get support, whether that's through an organization or whether that's through a partner or an understanding friend, whatever it is. You need support. You can't do this alone. So I think that part is helpful making sure that you have support.
Speaker 1:What does that look like parental alienation, so like in your experience. What are some circumstances where parents might feel that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in my circumstances and others, there is the child is. They're really resistant to you. They don't want to connect. They come up with seemingly insignificant things like I don't want to go to mom's house because she makes broccoli for dinner.
Speaker 2:You know personally my older son. He won't say that he loves me, he won't hug me. I had that same issue with my younger son. We have worked through that. I hope to work through it with my older son at some point.
Speaker 2:There is this unreasonable siding with the other parent 100% of the time, even when it doesn't make sense, and so those are the things that, the ways that it comes up, and a lot of even professionals don't know how to identify it, because a lot of professionals look at it as, oh, they're not talking to mom. That must be because mom has done something wrong, mom has upset them that there's some type of abuse or neglect or whatever professionals overlook is that even when there is truly abuse and neglect in a relationship, that child still usually wants contact with the parent, right? We see it all the time where kids keep going back to that parent, wanting them to show up, to pick them up, wanting them to do this or that. Right? When there isn't somebody turning the child away from the other parent, that child still wants connection. Even when it's not good for them, they still want that connection.
Speaker 2:In cases of parental alienation, the child seems to have no problems whatsoever turning their back on that parent or not having contact with that parent or demeaning that parent, being disrespectful to that parent, and it's rewarded from the other side, it's rewarded from the alienating parent, or there's just an air of oh well, I know there were things that I have told my kid's dad, my ex-husband, and things about the kids that we needed to address, and basically he was like you know, well, I'm going to believe what our son says rather than the other parent, and so they have this alliance and I'm kind of out here, you know, trying to make sense of it all. And so those are some examples hopefully that helps of what parental alienation can look like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we went through a period of that with my son after my former spouse and I we separated and I guess when he started dating again, my son stopped talking or interacting completely with his dad, which was, you know, it was sad and he was hurt and I guess that was his way of kind of showing his dad that he was hurt. And it went on for months. He wouldn't look at his dad, he wouldn't speak. So it was hard on the family, it was hard on me and it was hard on my partner or my ex-partner. It was difficult for everybody and my son and we ended up going to therapy and we needed the help of a therapist to help us sort out what was happening. And everything got resolved. But it it's. It's really tough when you're in it it really is, and we tried to.
Speaker 2:We tried to do therapy, both therapy for myself as well as family therapy. Therapy for myself wasn't helpful. I tried several therapists but when they don't understand parental alienation, they tend to give you rules that apply to standard parenting practices, which it's not the same. It's not even the same ballgame when we're talking about parental alienation. And we tried family therapy but my ex-husband their dad wouldn't participate and he also didn't support our son participating, and so I couldn't even get our son to go to therapy. We went a couple of times and then he flat out refused, wouldn't get in the car, wouldn't do anything.
Speaker 2:And at that point you have to make a decision with therapy. If I force my kid to go to therapy with me and they feel like there's this negative association with it, we're not going to improve our relationship, we're not going to heal anything by me trying to force something, and so you have to make it. It's another situation where you think it's going to be one thing Right, and then you get into parenting and you realize that it's much more nuanced and it's much more complicated than what it may seem on the outside and you have to make different choices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't force people to do things. No, and it's hard because they've got their own ideas and yeah, no, that's. That's a very tough thing for parents to go through. So how can you protect your mental health during that process if things aren't going as planned?
Speaker 2:parents, we do fall into this trap of thinking well, my kid should respect me because that's what I want. And while it's great if your kid can respect you and it's great if you can teach your kid respect, if that's not something that your child can give you, then it's your job to find that support elsewhere. And all behavior is communication again. So when my kids and it took me a while to internalize this, but it's not personal the way that my kids are acting is a product of their other parent not being able to meet their own emotional needs in a healthy way. It's a product of my kid feeling kind of stuck in the middle of I don't know whose side to take and I don't know what feels safe. Safe and it doesn't feel safe to be with mom in an emotional way when I'm back at dad's. And so I think it's really important for parents in this situation to remember that it is not personal and that there probably will be feelings of shame or guilt or embarrassment.
Speaker 2:I know I really struggled in the beginning with what do people think of me? My son isn't talking to me, he's not being affectionate with me, they're going to think that I'm a bad parent, when I've really tried so hard to parent in a compassionate way, and in that I had to let go of what other people thought of me and ask myself am I parenting the way that I want to parent? Am I showing up in the way that I want to show up? I can't convince them that I am this parent, right? That's not in my control, again, and so what is in my control is to compare myself to. Am I being the parent that I want to be?
Speaker 2:So recognizing that it is not personal, I think is really important, and then also getting the support that you need. I also have times when I need to take a step back, even for my kids. For example, I said my son doesn't give me a hug or tell me that he loves me. Well, I can oftentimes say, hey, can I have a hug? And he'll stand there motionless and that's my cue that I may approach to hug him. I don't get a hug back.
Speaker 2:But, that's how that works. There are sometimes when I can't take the rejection, and so I just don't even ask for a hug because I don't have the bandwidth to take that Same thing, with him not saying that he loves me. Every time I tell him that I love him which I do often and I don't get it back. That takes some currency out of my emotional bank. And so there are some times where I protect myself a bit more, where you know he's getting out of the car and I just don't say I love you because I don't have the emotional bandwidth to take that rejection, to not hear it back Exactly, to not hear it back. And so my kind of rule of thumb for myself is to show up with love and compassion whenever I can, and when I find that I'm overextended, it's okay for me to take a step back and protect my own feelings for a minute until I can recharge my batteries and then come back at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in your experience in dealing with parental alienation, what do you think? So you said all behavior is communication. So what do you think they're trying to communicate to you? So for my son, who, you know, refused to talk to his dad when his dad started dating somebody else, I felt like he was trying to communicate that he was hurt or that he was, you know, angry that mom and dad weren't going to get back together again, was hurt or that he was, you know, angry that mom and dad weren't going to get back together again. So what do you think they're?
Speaker 2:trying to communicate when they, you know, become more blocked off from you. Yeah, it can be different things for different kids, but the things that you mentioned absolutely that they're hurt or that they're uncertain about the future. Kids need certainty, right. And so when they don't have that certainty, that can feel really scary. In my situation and many other situations, there's this sense of communicating that it doesn't feel safe to be close to mom and that's because there will be retaliation at the other parent's house if they express that they did enjoy their time at mom's or that they do care about mom. There will be.
Speaker 2:The trouble is with parental alienation. For the alienating parent, their love is conditional, it's only given if the child is doing the quote unquote right things, and so they sense that and they sense that it's not safe to be close to this parent because then they might lose the other parent's love or affection or approval or whatever it is. And so the communication is I don't feel safe being close to you. That they don't feel safe being close to us not because, in the case of parental alienation, not because the target parent did anything wrong, but because of the circumstances, because the alienating parent is not able to meet their own emotional needs and has to drag the kid into it to help meet their emotional needs.
Speaker 1:Laura, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be vulnerable with us, because I can only imagine that this is not easy for you to talk about. So thank you, thank you for that, and I'm sure that you know it's happened to me and there's other people out there who are either going through a separation or, you know, their kids are struggling with something. So I know you're not alone and I really appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to share that with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, and I think it's important for parents to speak up because, like I said before, this happened to me. I didn't even know that it was a thing. I even worked in psychiatry, I worked in a mental health field, and I hadn't been taught about this, I hadn't learned about it, and so I think it's. I think the more people who can speak up about it, the more awareness we can bring and and the more that people can get the support and the help that they need to get through these challenging times, because it is. It is heartbreaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. It's tough feeling rejected from your own you know, from your own child, and thank you, thank you for that. You also, in your profession, you specialize with body focused, repetitive behaviors like hair pulling and skin picking. You mentioned that you had trichotillomania. I know. Yeah it's been a while since I've had to say that. So for a parent who suddenly notices their child kind of picking at their sores repetitively whether it's, you know, anxiety or noticing bald spots what's the first best step? To respond with calm and support rather than panicking.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think step one is get curious. Don't jump to any conclusions. Get curious. Ask the kid hey, I noticed this sore is really taking a long time to heal. Do you know why? Or hey, I noticed there's this thin spot. Or I noticed that some of your eyebrow is missing. Do you know anything about this? Do you know how it happened? Asking and getting curious first. Now recognize that. Well. And also, I want to add, if your child says that they don't know how it got there, then definitely take them to a medical professional. Make sure that you rule out any hair or skin problems that can cause hair loss or skin problems. So that's really important.
Speaker 2:But either if the child says, oh yeah, I've been doing this, or if they don't find any medical problems, then keep an open mind and recognize that these behaviors are a symptom of something else. These behaviors signal that there's some type of dysregulation. Now that dysregulation might be anxiety or it might be neurodiversions. I see a lot of people with ADHD and autism who have body-focused repetitive behaviors BFRBs. So it doesn't have to be an anxiety type thing, it can be some type of other disturbance.
Speaker 2:And so recognize that it's a symptom of something else and the goal is to help your child regulate. It's really important when we're addressing body-focused, repetitive behaviors with kids that the behavior is not the focus, that using other strategies and other regulation tools, that that's the focus. We don't want to attach rewards and consequences to the behavior itself, because that promotes shame and it tells the kid the behavior is not okay and the kid is not okay if they're doing this behavior. So what we really want to do is keep an open mind and recognize that the behavior is just a symptom and look for ways to help the child regulate or redirect their attention or, in some cases, decrease stressors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, therapy, I'm sure is something that comes into play as well for a lot of people trying to manage these conditions.
Speaker 2:Yes, I will say, though it's unfortunate that there are very few clinicians that are trained to treat body-focused repetitive behaviors. So anybody who has a child who's really struggling with this, I strongly encourage them to look around for a provider who does have experience treating body focused repetitive behaviors, because for the for the therapists who do not have experience, a lot of times clients or children can feel like they are just spinning their wheels, and I know I even had one of the first therapists that I saw. He was very clear that he had no idea how to help me with that with the hair pulling. He said let's focus on this other stuff first, let's focus on these stressors, and while that was important, he was very open about the fact that he did not know how to help me with that. So I just want to add that you might have to shop around a bit to find a therapist who is experienced treating these, because many aren't.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. When we were talking earlier, we were talking about, like, how, as parents, we tend to compare ourselves to other parents and we get in this trap of comparing ourselves to other mothers. So what is one way to break free from that?
Speaker 2:I think, first, recognizing that we live in a competitive society and that doesn't always serve us right. Even from when we are children, there are growth charts that we are compared to other people, and then in high school we are ranked among our peers when do we fall? And so recognizing that a lot of that comparison has been kind of forced on us and we've been told this story that it's important, right? So it's not necessarily important. And I really try, when I notice myself comparing to other people, that I again try to ask myself the same thing with parenting how am I comparing to who? I want to be Right, because that's going to matter more to me than comparing myself to somebody else.
Speaker 2:I don't have any idea what's going on in that other person's life. Maybe they can do all of these things because they have less stuff going on, or they have more resources or more support, or whatever it is. I have no idea why they can do the things that they're doing. And so it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges for me to compare one aspect of my life to one aspect of another person's life and ignore all the other factors out there closed doors on their end.
Speaker 1:And you know, as a busy professional who you know is working full time and trying to manage a household, I'm not going to be able to bake cookies for that bake sale all the time, right. I'm not going to be that parent who can volunteer for every committee. And if I'm trying to compare myself to somebody who you know is a stay-at-home mom or whatnot, who is able to volunteer for all these things, I'm not going to be able to take on all that extra responsibility just to prove that I'm a good parent and I'm going to drive myself crazy and burn out really quick if I am trying to compare myself to somebody who's got a completely different situation than I do.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I see lots of them that on the outside they look like they're doing it all and on the inside they are so overwhelmed and they are so dysregulated. And so often we don't see that picture of people. We see the Pinterest or the Instagram version of people being on their vacations and we don't get to see the part inside that they're really saying I need a break or I need something to be different or this is not sustainable. We do see that in ourselves, right, and so again it's. It's comparing two different things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's really tough to to manage everything. And you're right, instagram sees all of our curated posts. Right, it probably took like 20 pictures, 20 family photos, to get that one good family photo and prior to that, you know, people were screaming and trying to figure out, you know what clothes?
Speaker 1:to wear and how stressful it was, and then you get this great picture, but we don't see what happened before it. So it is, we can't compare ourselves to to what we see on social media. It's just. It's not fair to us, it's not fair to our kids, it's not fair to anyone.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if a listener takes nothing else away from our conversations today, what's one piece of encouragement or permission that you'd want every working mom to hear?
Speaker 2:I want working moms out there to hear that it is OK to give yourself space, it is okay to be patient with yourself, it is okay to be compassionate with yourself, it's okay to meet your needs first, and all of that will help you show up as a better parent. When we don't do those things, when we don't give ourselves that space or that grace or that self-compassion, it creates more tension and it makes it harder to show up as a parent and in the world the way that we want to be. I think the permission slip that I would want to give is that it's okay to listen to your body, it's okay to meet your own needs, it's okay to be compassionate with yourself. Beating yourself up doesn't get us far. If it does, it doesn't work for very long. It's only a temporary kind of white knuckling solution long.
Speaker 1:It's only a temporary kind of white knuckling solution? Yeah, and you don't have to be everything to everyone either. You don't For sure? So, laura, I love quotes. Is there a particular quote that you love and that you'd like to share with us before we wrap up?
Speaker 2:Yes, so there are two quotes that I really love. One is by Naeem Calloway, and it is and hopefully I get this right sometimes the biggest step of our lives ends up or no, I'm sorry sometimes the smallest step ends up being the biggest step of our lives. Tiptoe if you must, but take the step that reminds me that it's okay to take those small steps and it's all.
Speaker 2:Those small steps add up to the big steps, because sometimes we come in with this idea that we have to do it all at once. So that reminds me it's okay to take little steps. The other one that I really like on my journey of becoming more authentic and listening to myself there's one by the trauma expert Bessel van der Kolk in the book the Body Keeps the Score, and that quote is the greatest sources of our suffering are the lies we tell ourselves. The lies we tell ourselves that we can do all of it, or that we shouldn't be overwhelmed, or that whatever is going on in our lives is okay when it's not. But I found that to be so true for myself that the greatest sources of my suffering have been the lies that I tell myself. And when I can be honest with myself, there's a disappointment of letting go that facade that I wanted to keep, but it really does decrease my suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and those are the lies that are going to keep us stuck. They really do. They really do Amazing. I love those, Laura. How can listeners find?
Speaker 2:you Amazing. I love those. Laura, how can listeners find you? So they can head to my website, hopeandhealingcoachcom, and I've got all kinds of resources there information I have some free guides there for people to check out. I also hold a monthly BFRB Body Focused Repetitive Behavior Support Group and lots of other resources there. So head to the website. You can contact me from there and check out all the resources that I have.
Speaker 1:I'm also going to put in the show notes a link to five unexpected ways to hack your habits. I think that'll be really great for the listeners today. Laura, thank you so much for helping me today and for being here. I really appreciate how openly you shared your experiences and your wisdom, and this is the kind of conversations that really helps moms feel less alone and more supported, because sometimes we do feel lonely out there. So I know that my listeners are going to take so much away from this and I'm just so grateful that you took the time to come here and be here with us today. It's been great, absolutely, and thank you to all of you who are hanging out with us on Paging Dr Mom.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed today's episode, then go ahead and hit follow or subscribe so you don't miss what's coming up next, and if you want to keep the conversation going, you can find me over on Instagram at drangeladowney. I would love to hear from you. That is it for today's episode of Paging Dr Mom. If it made you smile, nod along or feel just a little more seen, then go ahead and hit that follow button and share it with a friend who needs to hear it. Take care, for now. You're doing better than you think.