Paging Dr. Mom
I was a medical student with two kids, trying to keep it all together. I constantly felt like I had to defend my decision to chase a meaningful career and raise a family at the same time. But professional women with children shouldn’t have to choose between ambition and motherhood.
Paging Dr. Mom is a podcast for the women doing it all and wondering if it’s ever enough. If you’ve ever felt the pressure to be everything to everyone, this space is for you. I’m Dr. Angelle Downey, a family physician, single mom, and host who believes we can thrive, not just survive, through the chaos.
With real talk, expert insights, honest stories, and a few good laughs, we’ll navigate the mental load, burnout, identity shifts, guilt, and joy that come with being a high-achieving woman in a messy, beautiful life. Together, we’ll cry, connect, and grow into the strong, wise women our kids are watching us become.
Let’s build a life we don’t need to apologize for and actually love living.
Paging Dr. Mom
11: Parenting Strong-Willed Kids Without Losing Yourself: Insights with Michelle McVittie
Parenting isn’t always picture-perfect and sometimes it feels downright overwhelming. In this episode of Paging Dr. Mom, I sit down with parenting coach and child life specialist Michelle McVittie to talk about what it really takes to raise strong-willed kids, support children with ADHD or anxiety, and stay grounded as a mom in the middle of it all. Michelle shares practical strategies for handling emotional dysregulation, building cooperation at home, and finding confidence in your parenting without burning out. She’s all about realistic, doable steps that bring more calm and connection into family life.
Connect with Michelle at momthemanager.ca and on Instagram @momthemanager. Don’t forget to grab her free resource What the Baby Books Didn’t Tell You.
This episode includes a paid partnership with BetterHelp. Click the link, betterhelp.com/drdowney, to get 10% off your first month.
Click below to purchase the 365 day journal I created called Enough As I Grow. I am a proud affiliate partner with Amazon and will receive a commission from purchases at no extra cost to you.
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Email: drangeladowney@gmail.com
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🎵 Music: Upbeat Strings by Evan MacDonald
Today's conversation is all about the messy real moments of parenting, when your child pushes back, emotions running high, and you're left wondering if you're doing it all wrong. We're gonna dive into practical strategies to handle strong-willed children, or children with anxiety or ADHD, and maybe most importantly, regulate our own emotions in the process. If you've ever felt like the default parent, stretched thin or just tired of the chaos, then this episode is packed with tools that you can actually use at home. Hey, hey, I'm Dr. Angela Downey, and this is Paging Dr. Mom, the podcast for women who are juggling careers, kids, chaos, and cold cups of coffee. We're talking about the real life behind the resumes, the messy moments, big feelings, and how to stay human when you're doing all the things. If you've ever felt like the only one trying to keep it together, you're not. We're gonna laugh, cry, vent, and thrive together. So here we go. Hello to all my busy mamas. I'm Dr. Angela Downey, and I'm so glad that you're hanging out with me on Paging Dr. Mom. This podcast is for all of us who are just trying to keep it all together while juggling kids, careers, and whatever else life throws our way. We will explore all of those moments that we definitely wouldn't be putting on our resumes. I want to introduce you to today's guest. Michelle McVitie is a child life specialist and parenting coach with over two decades of experience in pediatric, medical, and mental health. She is the parenting expert for CHCH Morning Live and is widely recognized for her practical down-to-earth approach. Michelle specializes in supporting families with strong little children, ADHD, anxiety, and parenting teens. She helps parents navigate emotional dysregulation, build skills at homes, and create a calmer family environment. I'm so excited to have Michelle on the show today. She brings such a down-to-earth and practical approach to parenting that I know is gonna resonate with so many of you. What I love about her is that she combines years of professional expertise with real life experience. So the strategies that she shares are not just theory, but they're really doable for everyone, and I can't wait for you to hear her insights. Hi, Michelle. It's so great to have you on Paging Doctor Mom today. I've been watching your Instagram account, and I've really been looking forward to finally being able to talk to you.
SPEAKER_01:Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm really glad. So why don't we maybe start by having you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your journey to becoming a parenting coach?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I am Michelle McVitie and Mom the Manager is the name of my business because I'm the manager of my home. It wasn't always that way. I was doing all the work, not doing any delegating, burnt out, and trying to figure life out. Um I became a mom, what, 28, married at 23, married at 26, you know, like just like jumping in. This is fun. And then life, you know, got a little bit harder. You know, my husband and I were trying to figure things out, and what I realized is I wasn't the only one. And the more that I started working with families, I worked in I've worked in pediatric, medical, and mental health for over two decades. So I see parents struggling. I'm trying to figure all this out, and especially I would notice this with moms. So I wrote a book called I Quit, Oh, Wait, I'm the Mom. And then, yes, right. I know we can't quit, but we want to, right? And then it's like, darn, I have to go make sandwiches. Darn, I gotta drop this one off to camp, or you know, whatever it is. Um, and I realized there can be different ways because I started doing it. I started practicing what I was preaching, and I wanted to support parents, especially mothers that felt so defeated and stuck. And because I work in the mental health system, I know the wait lists are frustrating. That a lot of children don't get diagnosed, will never get a diagnosis, and so it's like, see you later, have fun and good luck. And the world is overwhelming with amazing information, but also information and people that maybe are not the right fit. So I wanted to make it easier, and that's why I started Mom the Manager. I started putting information out there, and it led me to this journey to continue building my business.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. That's a great thing that you're putting out there because there are a lot of people who need resources. And you work a lot with strong-willed children. Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, strong-willed children. You know, I feel as though those are the children where a parent has three kids and you parent child A and B. The strategies work. You read the books and then you have this other kid, you know, and you're just like, what is going on? Why am I in negotiations with a six-year-old? Or this kid just doesn't quit. Um, and I feel, especially in the beginning, this is how a lot of children present that will later maybe get a diagnosis of ADHD, maybe ADHD and autism. Some are just strong-willed. I have one of those, and I have a husband that is the same way. I might be a little bit that way too, but I was a pleaser, right? I was a pleaser. Um, so that's why I thought let's help these parents out. And this is the language I was noticing parents using. I've got this strong-willed child. I love them. They're gonna be great lawyers, but right now I need them to clean the room, to get out of the house, and to stop arguing over every little thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's interesting that you mentioned like that third child comes along because you can parent the first two, the first three, the exact same way that you were before, but each child is just so different, and their personalities are different, and how they're gonna react to your parenting is gonna be different as well. So no child can really be treated the same way.
SPEAKER_01:You're right, yeah, and that can be really frustrating for parents because this child should be doing this. You know, the first two are listening, the the five-year-old has it figured out, the ten-year-old, I still have to remind. They should, they should, they should, and then you're shooting all over the place and feeling stuck and defeated, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, what do you think moms misunderstand about strong-willed kids?
SPEAKER_01:I think they um I think a lot of it is that they're doing this on purpose, and sometimes if you cry in the candy aisle and you get your candy, um, it's working. So, you know, why not? Um, I think also parents forget, and I have a child development background, right? So I look at a child differently. Um, it's actually one of my superpowers to be able to step into a teenager's shoes, a child's shoes, and say, let's look at it this way. And parents are very rational and they look at a very emotional child that should know better. Because on Monday and Tuesday you knew this, and now Thursday we're melting down over soccer cleats that you said you wanted and you wanted to go to soccer, and I've spent six hundred dollars, and now we're sitting here on the floor, I'm crying, you're crying, and we're looking at an emotional child with so much rationale, and we just want it to stop, right? We just want this, just listen, just do as you're told. And when you've got a strong-willed child, the more you get into a push and pull, they're like, Let's do this. I am not backing down, you're not hearing me, you want me to listen to you, but you won't listen to me. And parents are like inflexible with an inflexible child, and that's where that push and pull really doesn't work, and then some parents will start giving in, and others feel I have to lay down the law more, and it causes more and more chaos.
SPEAKER_00:I've definitely tried to put my foot down and be like, no, this is the way it needs to be, and you need to get in line, and it just doesn't work. So, how can we shift our perspective and make it seem like it's less of a battle?
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think this is the piece where people are getting really frustrated with gentle parenting, and they're saying, This doesn't work. You know, when I grew up, this is not the way that it was, and I'm fine now. Um, and sometimes that's questionable. You know, a lot of us are dealing with things or thinking, geez, I had ADHD all these years and I'm getting diagnosed in my 30s, right? So are we doing as well as we could have? I mean, that's another that's another segment, but um what we really want to look at is where is this child coming from? Where are we coming from, and can we meet somewhere in the middle?
SPEAKER_00:So you mentioned a couple times, you know, ADHD, children with anxiety, and that can often add another layer of stress. Can you talk about that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think that's the piece where it's kind of tough where parents may not know that this is ADHD, and we really do not diagnose kids until they're usually in grade one. Some kids do get diagnosed earlier, but it adds an extra layer. So when you look at a child, you want to understand that they're really functioning with an emotional brain, right? So we want to keep that in mind. We can be firm and kind with our strategy, that you can feel a certain way, you can be angry right now, but we are still doing A and B. But I'm gonna do it calmly and I'm gonna see your struggle. But your struggle does not mean that we part the ways and just allow this behavior to win. Of course, you're not saying that to the child, that's an inside thought. Then you have a child with ADHD. So if we look at a child with ADHD, they're up to three years behind in executive functioning skills, such as impulsivity, emotional control, and they're already emotional beings. So it's not in the DSM, but it should be like you've got a super feeler here, lots of emotion, stuff that just doesn't make sense to us. They are really, really black and white and rigid and really justice driven. This is not fair. I will follow a rule if I believe in it. So all these pieces, when I say that to parents, they're like, yes. And then we've got a five-year-old that is actually responding more like a one or a two-year-old, but want to hang out with the ten-year-olds. It can feel very frustrating. So, really understanding the brain that they are super impulsive, they need lots of love and attention, lots of patience, lots of structure and consistency, even if there's going to be a meltdown. Then you asked about anxiety, and some children with ADHD also have anxiety, so you are dealing with developmentally, maybe a child that's a little behind, or maybe they're ahead, but their ADHD is holding them back in certain ways, socially, for example, or behaviorally. And then we're gonna add the anxiety. Not necessarily all children with ADHD have anxiety, but if you have an anxious child, I feel like parents are scared to break their child. I have heard that a lot. Um, and I've worked with parents of teenagers that have children that have this entrenched behavior because it's been years and years of avoidance and the meltdowns, and like, how dare you do this to me? I can't believe you're doing this to me. And parents are like, I don't know what to do. And then it's years and years, and some kids haven't gone to school in years, and then it's harder to get them out. Do we put them in camp? Do we take them out when they are really struggling? And let's just let them stay home. And that accommodation teaches a child they can't do it. It teaches a child that whatever you're worried about, well, that's gonna happen. And you know what? If it does happen, you don't have the tools to deal with it, so I'm gonna bubble wrap you, and then when you're 15 or 16, I've had enough, and let's put you in the world. And they're like, You've been telling me for years I can't do it, and I can't do it now. And now you want me to jump on a bus, you want me to go to school, you want me to get a job, and I'm really struggling.
SPEAKER_00:So, is that what you mean by parents are afraid to break their kids? We shelter them from things that are making them anxious and just keep them away from those situations.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it's very well intentioned, but that accommodation of saying you can avoid, it's okay, I will step in, I will fix, I will protect, says you can't do it, and it perpetuates this behavior that is attached to anxiety, but we need to teach them that they can do it, and I'm gonna stand beside you to support you until you don't need me anymore.
SPEAKER_00:So, how can you go about talking to your kids about these things and trying to get them to try new things that they're nervous about trying?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the first step is to be curious instead of judgmental and trying to validate where they're coming from, just repeating what they've just said. So you're saying, if we go to this party, that no one's gonna talk to you. Hmm, okay. So I wonder why you were invited. If no one is gonna talk to you, I thought it was your best friend that invited you. Because what do we want to do? We want to jump in, it's fine, everything's gonna be great. This is your best friend, stop worrying, and then this kid is like, but I am worried, so what's the matter with me? Or what? I'm not gonna bring this up again, and I'm gonna turtle. That's what I call it when they kind of shut down. I'm gonna turtle, or other kids melt down, don't make me go, I don't want to go. Having a meltdown, breaking things, and we can see that it's coming from anxiety, not feeling hurt, feeling overwhelmed. We can have two different responses. So being curious and trying to understand, and also checking your own emotion, especially if you are a super feeler yourself. I'm one of those. Um, how much do I push this kid? What am I doing? I don't know how to respond. Um, but that's another piece is just being mindful. Is this helpful? What is the message I'm giving my child by allowing them to avoid or telling them not to worry about it? How can I approach this a little bit differently?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sometimes I go back and I think, well, when I was a child and I was going to this party, I knew how nervous I felt and how uncomfortable that was for me. And it hurts me that my child might be going through the same thing, and it's I I don't want to do that to them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, very valid, very valid. It's it's all well-intentioned, and we just want to wrap them. Like we probably wanted to be wrapped up. And the thing is, is that it's a it's a fine line of saying, I'm gonna wrap around you, I can validate you. Yes, this is so hard, of course. You know, you don't know what's gonna happen. Um, but let's just try, let's get into the car, let's get our outfit on. One step forward that you're not gonna try to convince them, you're just saying, This is hard, you can do this, we have said yes, and we're gonna follow through and see how it goes. You may have to stick around, you may have to be close by. It's not so much like in the parking lot, like stressing where the child can see you in the window. Um, but if it's a younger child, you may have to stay at a few parties and help them to interact with their friends and not be sitting on your lap the whole time, for example.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So being in the kitchen and helping the other parent with their party while your child is in the basement playing and realizing that this is okay and that you probably can go.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. And that's harder to do when they're older, right? So the sooner we can get started, the better.
SPEAKER_00:So you often say that you can't change your children, but you can change how you respond. Um can you give us an example of what that might look like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, well, I can give you a personal example, actually, and I've I'm a mom of an adult and a 17-year-old now, so um two very different personalities as well, brought up in the same home. Um, so you know, my son um was struggling a little bit with his last semester. I don't think he realized that he was struggling until it got to the end, and he's like, oops, or maybe like percentages or different things were just not coming together. Um, and I've talked to him. I've like, do you want to plan? Do you want to work on this? And it was really frustrating for my husband and I because he was saying, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good this whole time. And we're thinking, grade 11, bro, like we gotta figure this out. If you want to get that D1 scholarship to baseball, you need these grades, not just skill. All rational thoughts for us, all adult things, and we're looking at this child still in our eyes, going, You said you had it, and here's the proof you didn't, and now my anger wants to come out, my judgment wants to come out. But what I did was I checked myself before I walked in, and I just said, This is my concern. My concern is you will not be able to reach your goals, that these decisions that you're making now are going to affect your future, and that you will look back and say, Mom, you didn't do enough. And he said to me, Mom, this is on me and these are my goals. So he because it's done, there's not much he can do, right? With when he had a good semester, first semester, second semester, not so great. And then I remember before school started again, I said, So how are things going? What's your plan? You know, just like what are you gonna do this year? And he's like, Well, a lot has to change. And I saw the proof. I'm seeing the proof, getting up early, sleeping better, better study habits, going during his spare to do his math homework. Like things that I was like, okay, he needed the support. I gave him a lot of rope, even though I kind of regretted it, and it turned into some some friction between my husband and I because he wants to jump in, he wants to take things away, and I was feeling it just wasn't the right approach. I'm not saying that that's not the right approach with some kids, but with my son, I knew he could do it. He just had to get that motivation within him to do it because he really wants that carrot.
SPEAKER_00:I um yeah, I've struggled with with that for a long time. I've I've always had some control issues, you can call it. That I talk about on my other podcast, the codependent doctor. But um, so it's hard for me to know when to let go and how to let go, and for me to especially as the kids get older, it's one thing when they're younger and they need a lot more guidance, but at some point you need to get to this point where you kind of trust that you've done a good job and you need to let go, but I still find it really difficult. So, how do you know how much to let go, how much to get involved? I mean, I really like your approach. Um, I think that's great, but it's it's a fine line, and it's hard to know how much to how much to say, how much to put out there, especially one's 17, but the other one's over 18. You know, they're an adult now, um, and they're not coming to you for help.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, and that is the thing, is that um you don't know, and when it gets in the way of life, right? So if you say, I'm gonna give you a chance and let's try it, so you're gonna see, okay, do you need some help? No. Okay, so let's try this, and how long are we gonna try this for? It might be for a whole semester, maybe for your child, it's gonna be for a week or a month of them trying because they really want to do well, they don't want to screw up, um, but checking in and seeing how it's going because where is the proof that this is going well? And if it's not going well, then I need to step in. I will step in and work with you because I really want them to problem solve, I want them accountable. Even with a four-year-old, you can still ask them what is helpful, A or B, so they're part of that decision. They may not have as many ideas, but they may. So, looking at how is it getting in the way of their life and saying, okay, this isn't working with me saying, you go for it, you've got this. What I need to do is take one step forward, and then what systems do I need to put into place? And I really have to check in and not assume that they're screwing up, not assume that they're not gonna do it, because even the children with ADHD, I feel like parents, and I remember this one client where she was just like, see, I let him go to the park, and then he did this. This is why I never let him go, and this is why I'll never do it again. And instead, it's saying, Okay, let's look at the situation. You build resiliency by using these situations that didn't go well, understanding where they're coming from, how can they do a redo? Are they able to problem solve? If they could do it over, what would they do differently? And coming at it with that didn't go so well. Let's talk about this when I'm calmer and you're calmer, and let's give you a better way to practice and do this and try again versus holding them too tight and not allowing them to do the thing.
SPEAKER_00:So we started off the conversation by talking about strong-willed children. So, is there a good approach by getting them more involved in the conversation and what do you think you need? Does that help with stopping them from being so strong-willed and fighting you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, and I think it's that mindset shift, right? Which you've you know, you've asked that question, and I think it's a great question, because I think when parents look at a strong-willed child, they're like, we need to stifle this, right? Like they're going to take over. And when I give them an opportunity to share, it's not saying, okay, whatever you want, but what it's saying is, I will listen to you, and you need to listen to me, and how can we make this work together? Because even with the littles, right? And I'm not talking like two-year-olds, I mean, that's that's a different ball game. Um, but I'm talking like four and five, where you've got these really intelligent, um, strong-willed kids that if I just come in and say enough is enough, um, they're gonna push even harder. So instead saying, I see a problem, I feel like we are screaming and yelling in the morning, and it's not a fun way to start our day. What do you think would be helpful to get the day started? So you're having these conversations, and that's why I use collaborative problem solving and emotion coaching, and they're both evidence research-based strategies because they work, but we're not talking about everything, and we're not just allowing a child to always have their you know opinion, and we need to do this because sometimes you just have to do the thing, right? There are times and places, but when you give a child an opportunity to feel heard without judgment, without jumping in to justify why you did something or why that's not okay, what you're teaching them is that your opinion is important, but so is mine, and now we need to work on this together. And that's where I include the behaviorism pieces with this model as well, because structure, um, transitions, timers, sometimes routines, um, consequences, natural consequences work to change behavior. But if you have a strong-willed child and you're like, we're doing this, this is how it's gonna be done, they're like, Oh yeah, bring this on. I'll show you what's gonna get done.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes you just don't have time for it, right? You're busy, you're running, you got all this shopping to do, and you're just dragging your kids behind you to get it all done. So sometimes that time restraint makes it really difficult. Um, and I know sometimes I've gotten to the point where I was like beat red, and I was like, oh, so angry. And do you have any suggestions as to how we can manage our own emotions in those moments so that we don't get pulled into all the chaos?
SPEAKER_01:And I know it is hard. I mean, we are women especially, um, we are like CEOs of companies, you know, running organizations, doctors, lawyers. Like, we are not um doing we're we're using a lot of our energy and our brains. We are equal to our partners in being involved in the world. There is more pressure. We are doing camps, we're doing this, we're doing that with our kids. Um, it's not like it was even a few years ago, where Sundays we stayed home. Now it's like, are you kidding? And I've got two kids in rep sports, right? Like there was no rest for the wicked. And you know, and you don't want to punish your child and not do the thing, but it's exhausting, and then social media makes you feel guilty if you're not doing all the things. So for yourself, it's saying, Okay, they're in a fire, I'm not going to jump into the fire. So that self-care piece and also delegating, picking your battles, and saying, I need to tag team with my partner, or I'm going to call mom, my mother, and grandma to say, Can you talk to this little guy right now? Because I need to step away. And that community parenting has really gone away in our world. We're very isolated, and it's saying, I'm saying I can't do it all because I still want to have a career or to work out or to see my friends. I can't just be a mother or a parent. I have to kind of look at what is important to me, what is important to my family, and how is this working out? And if I'm doing all the things and I am go, go, go, go, go all the time, we tend to overdo it. We tend to do all the things, forget about it. Even if you know your partner says, I'll do it. No, there's no point, you're gonna do it wrong, then I'm gonna be annoyed, I'm just it's gonna be quicker if I just do it, and then you're burnt out, your head is like barely attached, and then this kid is melting down over putting on his boots in the blizzard, and your head pops off. So it's really about stepping back, looking at who's around you, how much do you really need to do? And I'm talking micro practices, okay? Like I'm not saying you need to go and get a spa treatment. That's lovely, but you can't do that every day. Micro practices. Five minutes of sitting and doing a mindfulness exercise, um, reading a book, putting your phone down, turning it off at a certain time, connecting with a friend, taking a bath instead of a shower. These are things that lower your stress levels, and it helps you to pause because we are going constantly. And how do you pause when you're at a 12 and then somebody looked at you the wrong way and you're like, what did you say to me? You know, like you want to pause, and this is usually your kid, you know, that you're like, and then we get into it. And what if your partner steps in? Do you feel now they're coming in and I'm feeling undermined? Are they actually stepping in to support me? And that's where there's a big disconnect. I never give clear answers, it's really complicated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, for sure. And it's interesting how you mentioned the partner stepping in because that's supposed to be a good thing, and we're supposed to be co-parenting and doing things together. But sometimes when my partner would step in, I would actually push them away because I always felt like you're right, like I was being underminded, or this is the parent who's gonna come and save the day, and you know, this is my battle, get out. So it's it is hard, and and I think that's where communication with your partner comes into play, knowing your partner's gonna have your back instead of. Of undermining you.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, correct. And I think too, like I remember this one family that I was working with where the husband was apprehensive to work with me because I think he thought it was going to be the women against him. So I did a little questionnaire and I said, okay, where are you? And where are you for with your thoughts on behavior? Even is this child doing this behavior on purpose? Like I really wanted to understand where they were coming from. And the wife was here and the husband was here. And I'm like, we really need to chat before moving forward. I want you to both feel supported. And I actually said, like you're thinking I'm going to be fluffy and everything's wonderful, and butterflies and fairies. And actually, I believe in building resiliency. We can do that kind, we can do that firmly and consistently. And I am going to help you two come together because this isn't actually working, because you come in to be the enforcer, and that doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel good for the relationship with your child. And then your wife feels you have stepped in too much and been too harsh. So then she feels like she needs to come in to hug, to be like, don't worry about it. It's only going to be for an hour, not for a week, or whatever that is. And then the two of you are fighting. And that communication piece can be really, really hard when you're so emotional and you're in it. So that's the piece that I love when couples will come to me and we can kind of work on that and pause and tag team, check in to see, do you want me to step in here? And I don't need to step in to punish, I just need to step in because I'm calm and you are you've had enough, right? And do that when you're like at an eight, not like a 12, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Right. So you you've talked about building a clear parenting plan. So what does that look like in day-to-day left family life?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I think what I what I always ask a family is what are your daily and weekly struggles? What are things that come up on a regular basis that you're like, this isn't working? Um, and really looking at your your priorities because I have talked to parents and they have a list of things going on. Um, so okay, so we've got a list here. Where are we gonna feel a little more confident, or we're already halfway there? So let's take a look at the strategies you're using and let's tweak them, and then you've got a consistent plan. And then what I do is I create a lot of resources because parents do not have time to read books, and if they do, that's amazing. But I'm not gonna be like, Can you read this book before we meet the next time? So I do Cole's notes, I keep things really simple the way I like it. I want to, you know, give me the language. And I've actually had a mom say to me, like, even though some of this language is for younger children, I use it because it helps me in communicating with my child. I don't necessarily use this with my child, but um, like we don't sit down and read this together, but I read it, and then when I talk to my child, then I'm using this language and it really works. So having that plan is saying, okay, what are our goals, and then what are the strategies to go along with it? And then here are the resources to keep you on track. Um, because just like potty training, you don't have the same strategy and you don't have the same goal until they're 15. Like we're trying to get them on the potty, and that's where those systems are really important. Once we've created change, then we're moving on to the next thing. So the piece too where I feel a lot of parents are coming to me because they've read the books, they've tried the things, and it's not working with this child, and we do a lot of like role-playing, and they're and I sometimes will be the kid, you know, and they'll try to talk to me, or the other way around where they're being the child. So I can really understand, okay, this is what it's like in your home, and I can tell you, I'm actually feeling frustrated right now with this response from you. So, really validating them and saying, How is this working for you to respond this way? And how can I support you? What's gonna work? Let's try this and let's check back in.
SPEAKER_00:It's funny you mentioned potty training um up until the age of 15 or something, and I was like, How do you potty train until 15? And I was like, you know, that's true, it's like a constant struggle in my house, right? It's keeping what goes in the potty in the potty and not all over the seat or in front of the toilet. So it is potty training is definitely an ongoing struggle for a really long time. So when you work with parent with parents of young kids, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see?
SPEAKER_01:Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Um ask you about teens as well after.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, yeah. I think with the littles, um, I think they are just like they they don't realize how much they have to repeat and less talking, right? Like we talk too much, we overexplain, keep it simple, and then the other thing is where are the visuals and checklists, right? Even for the littles. Look into a daycare. Do they micromanage all day? Absolutely not. They're singing songs, they're helping with transitions, they're turning the lights on and off to be like, okay, we've got a few more minutes. They're not just like stop, let's go. Enough is enough. Oh, we want to play longer, okay, another 15 minutes. That doesn't happen, you know, and we're all doing this together. We have a routine, we have structure, and it works. But when we go home, we only have one, we're tired, or maybe we've got a few, and it's just like, let them snuggle with me. I love this, and then it's like they're in my bed constantly. I'm exhausted, I can't do this. It's really just stepping back to say, is this getting in the way? What's the message you're giving? And being clear and concise and consistent that you're got emotional, yes, very consistent, right? Especially with the strong-willed child that's like she gave in once, let's go.
SPEAKER_00:I just need to push a little bit more and she'll give it to me again. And then push a little bit more. Yeah. Yes. I definitely remember um being in a restaurant and you know, and telling my child she can't cry in a restaurant. There's a lot of other people around. And I was like, we need to go home. We can't eat here. And and actually having to get up and go in the car and wait for our food to come, put it in boxes and and go home. Just and like it didn't it didn't happen again, but I didn't want to start this big battle in the restaurant, and I also wanted to know that there'd be consequences if you know you're running around and crawling under other people's tables, it's just not gonna work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that's really valid that you did that because that could have turned into fine, what do you want? Here's my phone, do this because we're staying here and stop embarrassing me. And that's where that cycle is really hard to break because parents may parent differently in public. What are other people going to think? Um, and then it's like fine, have the candy in the candy aisle, but what we're teaching them is that this behavior does work, and it could have been taking a break, you and your husband, your you and your partner deciding, okay, what are we gonna do here? Let's plan ahead for next time. And you said it didn't happen again, so I think that that's great because your partner may see it one way and you may see it a different way, but how can we tag team? Because actually, your skills may be different than your partner's skills. Um, and then how do we kind of make this work? Because some people are better at being consistent, and some people are better than better at like invalidating and being calmer, so make it work together. So that's great that that worked out for you, and sucks that you had to leave. Um, but you really you really, you know, set that that message that this isn't gonna work, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, what are some of the big mistakes that you see people making with teenagers?
SPEAKER_01:Hmm, yeah, this is a tough one. Um, and this is where I feel parents um have parented a certain way, they've done things a certain way, and then they're like, What have I done? And then I also see parents that are having a hard time letting go of control, and then they want to put more rules down, they want to be more strict, they want to take things away instead of working with this teenager or preteen that developmentally is appropriate from wanting to step away from you more, from wanting to be independent, but how can we do this in a safe manner? And let's talk about it. Because there's a lot of uncomfortable conversations that come when a child is trying to be independent. The social media and all those things are really, really hard. So parents will just say, just don't, and they're not allowed to have it. Meanwhile, their friends all have TikTok, Snapchat, whatever it is, and then they are like, I'm not communicating now, and I'm out of the loop this way. So instead, you can still say no to it, but let's talk about how you would eventually be able to have more freedom. What does it look like that you can show me you can problem solve and try things? And let's have these conversations. But these are uncomfortable conversations for us to have as adults, and we have to tolerate our own distress, and sometimes it's like if I just if I just look straight ahead and the chaos is all around me, it's all gonna work out, and that's how a lot of us were brought up. We just figured it out on our own, but we are doing things differently. So, how can we help transition? Each child is different, but having those conversations um is really important, and letting them try instead of saying, I don't like this, this is too much. They they're you know, they're 15 and they're acting like they're 25. Well, can we meet somewhere in the middle? And do they have the skills to do it? And are you just assuming they're gonna make poor decisions when they haven't showed you any of that proof and that builds resentment? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I one one thing that I and I don't know how I came up with this. Maybe I was listening to some parenting podcasts, but when my kids asked me what is my curfew for tonight? I'm going to such and such a place. What's my curfew? I never really gave them a time. I just said, Okay, well, what what do you have on your plate for tomorrow? And then we would kind of like review their schedule for tomorrow. I'm like, wow, that sounds like a lot, or you've got some free time. Like, what time what what do you think is reasonable for tonight? Um, as far as the curfew goes. And then they would kind of think about it and they would say, Well, probably like 10 o'clock. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that that sounds reasonable for me. Have have a good night. And um they they always came home on time, and I don't know if I was just blessed, maybe I just had good kids. I don't know. So I don't know if that was maybe like a strategy and letting kids kind of have some input on on what they needed and having them think about you know what their plans were for the next day. Is that something is that is that a good strategy to have? I love that strategy.
SPEAKER_01:I've done the same thing. Yeah, I've done the same thing um with mine, but again, you're you could you've got to look at where where your child is at, where their skills are at, have they proved to you that they can make this decision, and I will allow you to make this decision, but if you're not following through, then we're going to have to um check in. And how do you show me that I can trust you again? Um, and what you're doing is collaborative problem solving, right? This is where you're coming from, this is where I'm coming from. What do you think? And because you gave them that autonomy, you may have already been thinking 10, but it's coming from them. So great strategy, especially if you've got strong-willed children that I already have an idea, but I want to hear from you. You're coming up with all the things I'm saying, but it's but you're like, I this is my input, this is what I say, and I'm over here going, okay, that was good. I was gonna say 10 o'clock. And if not, maybe if they said like 12, I'm thinking 10, can I say I'm thinking more 10:30, maybe 11? 12 o'clock is a little late, right? So kind of finding that middle ground, I think, is really important. And if they don't follow through, if they're making poor decisions, then how do we help them make better decisions, build resiliency, problem solving, and sh how do they take one step? You're not just saying, okay, let's try this again, possibly, but what's one step forward, and then we can extend this and extend it until you can prove this to me.
SPEAKER_00:So we were talking earlier about ADHD and how their their brains are kind of a couple years behind sometimes. I think it was with the way you described it. So in teenage years, how does that come into play, let's say, for something like setting a curfew or trying to do that collaborative process?
SPEAKER_01:It's complicated. It's so complicated because children with ADHD, um, you know, I I feel like social skills can be a real struggle um for them, and some kids not. Uh so, but if you've got a child that maybe is that class clown that really wants to be included, they have a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes, and are they picking friends that are appropriate? Do they want to be part of the cool crowd and just go along with what's happening? Those are the things that we want to watch our child to see. These are the things that we're working on at a younger age, where are they picking good friends? Not just the shiny kids that are popular, for example, but not a good fit, or you have nothing in common, and now you're constantly terrified that you're going to be, you know, judged, or that you're gonna you're not have these friends anymore. Um, so with these children, I would say you have to be more consistent. You would have to set up like a timer on their phone to make sure that they're back. You're gonna have to stay up, which is exhausting, you know, like to make sure that they come home. You're going to have to check in with friends more to see is this the right fit. Or I'm gonna call the mom and be that mom to be like, are you gonna be home? My son is saying there's a party, are you actually gonna be home? It's gonna drive them crazy, but you might have to go those extra steps because they're that kid that is so impulsive, right? And then this is fun, and my adrenaline is pumping, and we're going to the quarry when we're supposed to be a math, and then I'm standing on the edge, and am I thinking, how far is it down? How are we gonna get out? Is there enough water? They're not thinking, they're like, This is exciting, and then afterwards, maybe they make a poor decision, and we come in with, I told you you can't do this, we're never doing this again, and instead, that didn't go well, what's a do-over? And can you actually see how this could have resulted in something like that didn't go well, or an injury, or worse, right?
SPEAKER_00:So, looking back at your own parenting journey, what is one thing that you wish you had known earlier that might have made motherhood feel a little bit lighter?
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm a recovering pleaser and uh went to therapy to go through that because I realized it was getting in the way of my life. I did all the things and then was angry about it, or would like freak out. Um, and I remember my sister being like, What is the matter? And I was always the mother hen with her, and I'm like, I'm sick and tired of driving you everywhere, and she's like, Okay, like I didn't know, you know, like what you know, like I needed to learn to communicate, not do all the things, and to really check in with myself and say, Who is my team here? What is it that I need? Um, and have some better structure. I feel like for myself, the reason why the first year um of life with my daughter was more stressful was because I had no structure. Um, I didn't have her on a routine. I didn't know any of those things, and this is my problem. Sometimes, and I still do it, I come in and out. You know, like when life is stressful, I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna like not look at this right now because if I look at it, then I get overwhelmed, and then sometimes I freak out, sometimes I do nothing. So as a coping mechanism, I tend to not have structure, and I didn't realize that I needed more structure, I need more things in my life, and I need to stop trying to do it all. And when my partner pushes back to say, actually, this isn't working for me, and this is what we need to do to move forward, because I was getting lost in my emotion, my resentment was building, and I just was overwhelmed. So I didn't know about all these things that people maybe now were like, Are you kidding me? My daughter's 20, okay? So back then there was not as much access to information, and I just kind of was winging it. And what I should have done is stopped and said, What isn't really working here? Um, and how can I do things differently? And that's what I did with my son. I was like, okay, three years later, I'm putting him on a sleep routine, I am not nursing him to sleep, I am starting to work out, and I would take him to stroller fit. I started doing things for myself, I put them into daycare, um, and I was like, okay, now I have a process, and I've been scaffolding and scaffolding and scaffolding my skills as to what I need as a person, not just as a mom, what I need as a wife, not just, you know, I am the caregiver here, that we're in this together as team family, and it needs to shift as each stage of our relationship and our children's development changes to check in and to do all those things.
SPEAKER_00:You mentioned uh you have your book, I quit. Oh wait, I'm the mom. So you share your own story of wanting more in your marriage and motherhood. So, what are what shifted when you started asking for the things that you needed?
SPEAKER_01:What um happened was that I realized that I wasn't being hurt, um, and then I didn't know how to communicate that that this is not working well. What I realized was that the way that I just avoided did not did not work. And what ended up happening is that we went to therapy. What ended up happening was that we needed someone to say, This is this is how you work on this, that I have messages from my past that I did not want to hold on to anymore, that I wanted to change, that I was saying, I met you at 23, and now I want things differently. The world is changing, I'm changing along with it, and this is what I need from you. What is it that you need from me? We learned that in therapy. Um, and it really shifted our dynamic because I learned to find my voice, I learned to set boundaries, and what I learned was that if I set boundaries or I communicate with somebody, if they are my people, they will hear me. And maybe at first it'll be a little bit hard, but they will hear me. They'll own something and say, Yeah, that's my bad, or I didn't know you felt that way instead of making it my problem, which was what happened in my life in the past with friends and mean girls through high school where I would just take it all and it was my fault, and I started learning it doesn't work that way, and I have to be more assertive and step into my own power and not give energy to things that aren't serving me anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think I spent the first 15 years of my marriage just using avoidance and passive-aggressive comments, and it it doesn't get anywhere other than having a lot of frustration. So that communication and setting boundaries is super important. Agreed. Michelle, how can listeners find you?
SPEAKER_01:So I am everywhere. I'm momthemanager.ca. I'm in Canada, Hamilton, Ontario. Um, so that's the easiest way to find me. I'm on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. So if you're looking up looking me up, Michelle McVitti or Mom the Manager, I will come up. And you can also check me out on CHCH Morning Live, their website. I have a monthly segment as their parenting coach.
SPEAKER_00:Fantastic. And you've also got um a freebie that you're offering with what what the baby books didn't tell you. Got some free training.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, so it's resiliency building, all the things we talked about, um, and it's free for you to kind of say, where are we, where are we going with this child? Why are they struggling? Thinking about them as an individual, how we can support them with their emotions, with building problem solving and life skills, and just making sure that the community wraps around them as well. Um, it's many different steps, but completely doable and short and sweet, and you can watch it anytime.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing. And I'm gonna make sure that all of those links are in the show notes. Michelle, I want to thank you so much for being here today and for sharing both your wisdom and your personal journey. And I know that a lot of listeners are gonna be walking away with these fresh ideas and lots of encouragement. So it's been such a pleasure and a gift to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00:And thank you for hanging out with us on Paging Doctor Mom. If you enjoyed today's episode, go ahead and hit follow or subscribe so you don't miss what's coming up next. And if you want to keep the conversation going, you can find me over on Instagram at DRAngela Downey. I'd love to hear from you. Take care for now, you're doing better than you think. That is it for today's episode of Paging Dr. Mom. If it made you smile, nod along, or feel just a little more seen, then go ahead and hit that follow button and share it with a friend who needs to hear it. Take care for now, you're doing better than you think.