Curated Muse

2 Professional Artists, Two Dramatic Style Changes: What We Learned

• Aunia Kahn & Michael de Vena

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Show Notes: https://hyperluxmagazine.com/2-professional-artists-two-dramatic-style-changes-what-we-learned/

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, wonderful humans, and welcome back to the Curated Muse podcast. And today I have Michael DeVenna with us. It is not just me this time, and it's not an interview. Michael is a co-host and a part of the gallery and magazine, and we'll come on here and we will chat about things that we normally chat about in the privacy of our own studio on a more public platform. And today we are going to talk about changing styles. We did do another episode not that long ago about that, but it was more of a general discussion about it rather than talking about it as two artists. Michael and I have both had long-term careers where we've had long-term styles that have defined us as artists, as professional artists in the gallery world. And we both shifted at a very similar time. The difference between Michael and I, though, is he took a really big break for a few years to be able to move away from the world and explore his creativity. Mine was more based in I became not allergic to all the mediums in the world, which is great. Worrying about dying if I touch paint. And we both started our own exploration. So in this podcast... We are going to talk about this because we talk about it together and we feel like as two artists that are going through something similar, we can share this with our audience. So let's go ahead and welcome Michael to his first podcast ever as a host and as kind of a guest. You're like a guest host, like a ghost host. So as we're sitting here staring at each other, because clearly we've never done this before.

SPEAKER_01:

As we do daily.

SPEAKER_00:

As we do daily. Yeah, so talk about your journey. It's a real interesting one.

SPEAKER_01:

For me, the shift was watching it happen to a lot of people through the years I knew and couldn't really relate because I was so locked into my own journey, my own art practice. And I just personally hit a point after many, many years, over a decade, of... missing who I was 20 years ago, which was a painter and involved with a certain kind of painting and a certain kind of practice that I let go because illustration became part of the forefront unexpectedly. And that was a great ride. And I don't know, I think part of it was age, part of it was personal contemplations that happened all at once. And it really made me think about what I wanted. outside the career aspect of it, which had been my life. You know, the obligations that we all go through of galleries, the business side of it, the monetary side of it and the growth side of it. And it just hit a wall. And for me, I took some time off for almost two years And I went back to painting, and I went back to a new practice, and I went back to just letting things go, almost like I was a child again. Not being influenced, not thinking about anything, not following the art world at all, really.

SPEAKER_00:

Trying a lot of art supplies.

SPEAKER_01:

Trying every art supply that I've ever known since I was a kid, including crayons. And it led me to touch upon where I left off nearly 20 years ago, like I said. And that was... the spawning effort of it all, where it led me to where I am now, which is maybe not what I expected or what a lot of people expected, but it is definitely the most, I don't even know what a good adjective would be. It's the most complimentary to my personality of a place I could have been that I didn't know that I was lacking all these years. And so that in short is is my journey and why we do talk about so much because it's still after i mean it's a little over a year but it's been a two two and a half year process it still blows my mind every day like what am i doing why am i here what am i creating and it's kind of surreal but it feels like home and so that's why i keep going

SPEAKER_00:

So you're still second guessing yourself, even though we sit in the studio and you feel really good about what you're doing and like, enjoy the process. You're constantly second guessing yourself all the time, which is kind of hard to watch. And I think we both do that. But for you, like, where does the second guessing come from in that? If you feel like it's so home, like,

SPEAKER_01:

I think, I think part of it has to do with the The analogy I use mentally is, say that you want to get back on track and get healthy, get fit, if you will. And you start going to the gym or taking long walks and you have goals. And then you kind of detour and get kind of complacent and you... kind of fall off the wagon, right? And so it starts to feel like I'm falling off the wagon because everything starts to become too easy, too simplified. I can't identify with who I am because you still connect to who you were or what people might even expect of you. All those things come in all the time. It's just, you know, psychology 101 just happens. Doubt is there. So for me, I feel like I have to question it. I have to engage with doubt. And sometimes it's pleasant, sometimes it's not. It's not like I'm saving lives, I'm just creating artwork. But it's at such a personal level, almost a religious level, that I have to give it massive respect. And so I just try to work with the doubt and the challenges and obstacles that pop up all the time. Because you can't slam decades together. of being one kind of human being with one kind of philosophy and certain kinds of ethics. And then all of a sudden overnight, it shifts so drastically that you're just going to figure it all out within months or a year or whatever that that doesn't happen. Maybe it does for some people, but for me, it doesn't. So I kind of get off on the experimentation process. And sometimes it is about deep self-doubt and questioning myself and feeling foolish. And then other times it's like, I'm just a little kid and I'm playing and it feels awesome because the sense of play is where it all started. And so that's where I go. I try to remind myself it's the sense of play. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm doing this. It's when I was happiest a long time ago. And to maintain this with longevity, I'd have to keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's hard to have a sense of a play when you're a professional artist. I mean, I'm not saying there is an artist out there that can do that, that their work is just play. but almost any career artists that I know, there's stress behind it. There's exhibitions and expectations of fans and all of that. And then you also, I'm going to say this too, you also pivot back and forth. Like you start into this new path, but then you're like, well, that other path had, had, you know, fans or, you know, people got it. And the minute you start like shifting completely, and I'm not talking adding a different color palette or something I'm talking, Michael and I both shifted completely. Like I, It wouldn't even be recognized as each of our works. I mean, some people say, yeah, it kind of does. If you put the works next to each other, you can see the hand touched it. But Michael went from completely black and white, super refined, illustrative with gold to these nonsensical, crazy colors. And I've always been a little bit more of a muted palette person. never really bright, just kind of more calm, chill colors. And I'm also kind of like circus. So it's kind of like a circus sideshow in our house. Like we're like, okay. And here comes the, what were we calling that color that I was using? Like Sherbert. It's just like, that's crazy amount of Sherbert. And so you, you question it because sometimes the other work for both of us maybe seemed a little bit more serious or seemed a little bit more accepting in the world, right? Versus what we're doing now. People are like, The heck is going on? And when I started putting it out a couple years ago, I did go back and forth. I have been going back and forth. I went back and forth with my solo show just recently, where I went back into more muted, more technical, rather than being more experimental. But during that process over the last few years, I did have a Patreon. And when I basically posted, like, this is where I'm going to be, you know, if you don't like the bright colors, feel free to leave. I mean, of course, I didn't say it like that. But generally speaking, like, this is not a phase. This is where I'm going to be. I lost half of my Patreon followers. So it's like, we have to decide whether or not, and I mean, like, you guys listening and us, Do we want to stick with the work that gets the most support and gets the most opportunities? Or do we want to stick with the work that gives us the most happiness? And apparently, for a lot of people, those worlds do not live together. They are mutually exclusive of one another, which is challenging.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's kind of symbiotic with how we will often look at what's the old adage of Question your ideologies, question your beliefs, right? And so with your creative world, I feel it's the same exact thing, whether it's on a personal level, spiritual level, creative level. Question what your ideologies are. Question what your goals are. Question of why you're doing what you're doing. How long have you been doing it and why? Are you happy? Are you content? Is there something more? Just dig deeper. You never know what you'll find.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree. It's a very, very true aspect. Do you feel, and I'm asking you like I don't live with you, right? What is the biggest reward that you get from like going after the thing that you want, even though you're not getting the likes or the response maybe from galleries and things that you would hope being a professional artist for so long?

SPEAKER_01:

Honestly? I kind of got a big kick out of it, not right away, but probably in this past year. There's a joy that starts to happen for me when you just don't care anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

It's also an age thing.

SPEAKER_01:

It's also an age thing. Yeah, which is true because a lot of people say that with anything. You get to a certain age, I'm a man of a certain age.

SPEAKER_00:

You're a man of

SPEAKER_01:

a certain age. You just

SPEAKER_00:

are. A certain caliber of age.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you just don't care anymore. And that's for good reason. For me, that was part of it, I think. It was taking it to a personal level.

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

felt before, like, I don't know if you did, you'd have to tell me. I felt almost like a performer. There was a lot. It was like having a day job and being a performer and entertainer where you're expected to do a certain line of work, quality work, get paid for it and do it again.

SPEAKER_00:

And maybe not get paid for it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's

SPEAKER_00:

the other thing too, right? Because it's not like you have a guarantee that you're going to get paid for it.

SPEAKER_01:

No, you don't. And that's always in the back of your mind. But as we know at a psychological level, we know that it's natural. for the brain to evolve. That's just neuroscience, right? We have to evolve and learn and keep going, especially with age too. The older you get, the more you learn, the more interest you have mentally and physically, the healthier you are. And that applies to your art as well. And so for me, that was pretty evident that it was not growing. It was stagnant. I didn't realize it because you just get used to it. It's like a warm and fuzzy blanket. It's what I do. And then... then you realize there's something missing, you know, it's like being in a bad relationship for a long time. You realize there's something missing. I should probably check in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong. Let's be clear. There's nothing wrong with changing, like not changing your style or continuing to do things, you know, that are just, they feel right to you. And not everybody needs to ship. Some people will do the exact same thing. for the entirety of their life. Right. But there are others that like to explore and grow, but then feel within a box, especially if they are in a professional atmosphere to not shake things up and not, you know, create any sort of disconnect. Cause it takes a long time to become a professional artist. It's not an easy task to be exhibiting and doing that. So then it's like, it feels very fragile. Like, you know, You don't want to screw that up because not everybody gets that opportunity. It's an amazing place to be in, but also is it sucking your life dry? Are you just a vending machine? Are you just producing the thing that... is expected of you. And we talk about this all the time, the difference between the blue chip world and the mid-tier world. Mid-tier world has, you know, not all, again, everything we talk about is, you know, in general, generalization, it's not a hundred percent, but a lot of mid-tier has this, they expect artists to come to the table with work that they recognize because that's what they're going to give to collectors as a gallery or curator, right? You expect a certain type of caliber of work, a certain style, right? Because if you go and you shift yourself completely, your collectors aren't going to be there. It's just the way it is. Unless they're just radical. I have one person like that, that every time I shift to do something, they want a piece of the shift. But then you look at the blue chip world, you know, like... A lot of artists there are always evolving and changing and the collectors want new because that's really focused more on investment than anything. The new is like investable rather than the new is just interesting and someone wants to buy it. And so that's kind of the difference between those two worlds where they can do whatever they want and because they have a monetary value associated with their name, it doesn't matter what they produce. But then in the mid-tier world, it's more about what you produce doesn't matter match the caliber and subject matter, theme, feeling, emotion that a typical collector would want so that they can sell the work. But it makes us wonder, like, are they happy? Are they doing that because they love it? Are they doing it because they have guaranteed collectors, they have guaranteed galleries, they have relationships that they have spent 10 to 20 years building? It's scary to think about somehow fracturing those relationships.

SPEAKER_01:

it's true in all aspects of the art world doesn't matter which tier you're on or if you're a professional or not but it is true from the very top it's just standard to know that a lot is expected of you stay at an upper tier if you're part of that gallery system to evolve every season and learn. It's embraced, it's acknowledged, it's rewarded. I've experienced that in my own little way too. And I also have had friends that have been in different parts of our world as myself experience that as well. And so it's all relative to your own experience, but it's something worth looking into.

SPEAKER_00:

So this episode ended up being longer than I think we both thought it could be. We could probably go on and on about this because I think every day we at least have an hour conversation about this over the dinner table or in the studio. But we will be back again with another episode of the Curated Muse podcast. And I'm so excited this time around doing a podcast to have a co-host because I don't necessarily like talking to myself all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

it was a privilege to be here

SPEAKER_00:

all right well everybody will see us again

SPEAKER_01:

let's do it again