Interview: With Skap Attack Discussing Lebron, & More

What if the legend you were sold never matched the game on the floor? We sat down with Jay Skapanick, the sports historian behind Skap Attack, to unpack how a generation of coverage elevated LeBron James beyond the evidence and buried the harder, sharper truths about Kobe Bryant. This isn’t about hate—it’s about the incentives that shaped what you heard every day and why so many fans now feel like their eyes have been gaslit for twenty years.

We trace the post-Jordan vacuum, Kobe’s pariah years, and the media’s bet on a single storyline that made for great segments but fragile fandom. Miami’s superteam era should have dampened MVP hype; instead, the narrative found a way to glow. Meanwhile, Kobe was told his rings didn’t count with Shaq, then dismissed when he won without him. The double standards become impossible to ignore when you compare coverage to outcomes, especially as Finals viewership slid while the debate shows got louder.

Then we shift to what real basketball value looks like today. Jokic and Giannis prove that substance still wins: small markets, no shortcuts, and championships delivered despite injuries and imperfect supporting casts. Jay lays out why Jokic’s decade without an All-Star teammate is historic, why Giannis is the most honest version of a two-way superstar, and how both represent a course correction the league keeps resisting. We also dig into the “fall guy” pattern around LeBron, the way teammates’ reputations shrink beside him, and why fans now demand a better standard for greatness.

Finally, we look ahead. With the Lakers pivoting to Luka and the cap realities closing in, where does LeBron find the farewell tour he wants? Do contenders have space or appetite? Jay maps the options, the ego calculus, and the pressure building as the media script collides with the salary sheet. If you care about basketball merit, context, and the truth behind the talk, this one will hit a nerve.

If this conversation challenged your assumptions, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a review telling us where you stand on Kobe, LeBron, Jokic, and Giannis. Your take might show up in a future episode.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Intro
• 1:15 Why Kobe Is Underrated And LeBron Overrated
• 3:10 Media Economics And Manufactured Narratives
• 8:45 Stephen A., ESPN, And The LeBron Industrial Complex
• 12:55 Miami Move, MVPs, And Coverage Double Standards
• 17:15 Post-Jordan Vacuum And Kobe’s Pariah Era
• 22:40 Ratings Decline And Star-First Strategy Backfire
• 27:30 The Pivot Problem: Life After LeBron
• 31:40 Younger Fans Waking Up To The Spin
• 35:20 Alpha Mindset: Kobe Vs LeBron
• 40:10 Modern Greats: Jokic And Giannis Respect
• 45:05 Jamal Murray’s Ceiling Vs Consistency

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Two of the things I'm most passionate about is LeBron is overrated as hell and Kobe Bryant is underrated. Uh, and those two things to me, as you kind of alluded to, are connected.

SPEAKER_01: 0:11

All right, guys, thank you so much and welcome. This is Stefan Piscano with the Stefan Piscano podcast. I had the great privilege and honor to interview Jay Skapanick, the content creator and founder of the YouTube channel Scap Attack, which is one of the fastest growing channels in sports media. At the time this episode's going live, he has nearly 100,000 subscribers. He's a sports historian and in a very, very short period of time has really taken the sports media landscape by storm. We got to talk with Kobe Bryant, LeBron James for nearly two hours. For those of you that are interested more in the entrepreneurial stuff that we normally talk about, you can just skip to about the hour and 20-minute marker because he did as somebody that's been a viral success with social media, really taking YouTube by storm. Like I said, he gave us some tips from an entrepreneurial standpoint on how to grow a YouTube platform that I found extremely valuable, and I think you will too. So I'm going to play that interview in a moment. This is a good segue into some of the Kobe LeBron stuff. But I think part of what that is, is obviously you're a diehard Kobe Bryant guy, as I mentioned at the top. When I first saw your video, and I've I've been obsessively a Kobe guy for his entire career and since, and when you grow up like that, it's a very lonely place, right? Because sports media for so long doesn't give that side of the coin, you know, because in my opinion, they make more money to have a current player debated against a retired player. So for them, it's it's a strategy with LeBron versus Jordan, LeBron. And then you're watching the games. If you're really a sports man and you're watching LeBron choke his ass out year after year, and just saying, Well, what I'm seeing with my eyes doesn't match the coverage that is being reported. When you, it's it's kind of like the old Rush Limbaugh saying he used to say, you know, people would say, Well, he's telling people what to think. And he would say, Well, no, I'm just reflecting what they already think, and they can't get it anywhere else. When I saw that first video, you reflected it so perfectly and with the analytical data did in such a beautiful way that it not only creates a view, but it creates a passionate follower. And because you are sincere with that, obviously, then it creates this cohesion that I think leads to the growth that you have. Is that just a completely organic process that it evolved that way? Or have you retrospectively looked at that at all?

SPEAKER_00: 2:40

Yeah, it's I mean, it's getting to the point now where it is, it's evolving. And I had really no idea what was capable on YouTube or you know, how people make money on YouTube or build businesses through it. It's rooted in my passion for the things I'm talking about. You know, I don't, I don't really make content just just to try to, you know, get clicks or views. I like basically everything I do, um, everything I'm working on every day is just something that that I'm passionate about, something that I want to talk about uh or tell a story about. So uh that that I mean that's absolutely like at the heart of everything that I do. And I don't think that that will ever change. And two of the things I'm most passionate about is LeBron is overrated as hell, and Kobe Bryant is underrated. Uh, and those two things to me, as you kind of alluded to, are connected. They're they're intertwined. A lot, a lot of a lot of people in my fan base or or subscribers think of me as an anti-Lebron guy, but it really is is more so born out of the fact that I'm a pro-Kobe guy. Yeah. So it that because Kobe came first, and Kobe owned that era first. So, like really, um, the ways that I feel about LeBron is just reactionary because of what I know to be true about Kobe Bryant.

SPEAKER_01: 3:54

Well, and you can feel just like how you can feel the authenticity and the sincerity of your content, you can feel the media manipulation with LeBron stuff to the point where I wonder when I'm watching some of this stuff, how many of these people on ESPN and FS1 even really believe it or realize what they're saying, or if they're just being compensated in some capacity or another.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

I I would think that there's a a very small percentage of these media flunkies and stooges out there that are that are touting LeBron that really truly believe what they're saying about him. I mean, first and foremost, look, we've seen the rift between Stephen A. Smith. He I use Stephen A. Smith kind of as a as a barometer because he is, you know, the preeminent voice for ESPN, you know, the maybe the most powerful uh, you know, sports entity, the di Disney Corporation and ESPN. And Stephen A. Smith is their their primary mouthpiece. And, you know, recently we saw over this last season, he kind of got into a fight with LeBron at Half Court during an actual game because of the way Stephen A. Smith was covering Brawny and you know, the the ensuing rift that ensued between Stephen A and LeBron at that point. But for years prior to that, you know, Stephen A. Smith has been just one of these sycophantic, you know, boot licker LeBron James supporters who have just been, you know, pulling him drastically up the all-time ranks and and talking about him, you know, in the same breath as Michael Jordan. I think in a in a private moment, though, Stephen A. Smith doesn't believe and never believed that, um, you know, in the first place. I, you know, I think he probably barely has LeBron on the on his top 10 fringe, but for whatever reason, he's been mandated from the powers that be within the the ESPN mothership that he's just has to talk this guy up and really just to ratchet up, you know, ratings and and try to, you know, cultivate viewers is pretty much the way I see it. And I think that is mostly true for most of these people that have been moving LeBron up. Because, Steven, here's the thing they they've been covering basketball for too long professionally, like they've seen too much. Yeah. Like, you know, it's not like they got flashy thingy from men in black and just totally forgot, you know, all of the all of the eras and all of the greats that preceded LeBron. And LeBron just has too many damn blemishes uh for these people to really actively believe that it's Jordan LeBron and then everybody else.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

Yeah, and this is the problem when I interview somebody that I'm such a big fan of because my brain's jumping around all over the place here because you keep saying things that uh get me excited. But I gotta, okay, I'm just gonna go with the most recent thing that popped in my head, which is over the years, because I remember when LeBron went to Miami to form the big three, I was so happy about it at the time because I was like, oh, good, he's never gonna win another MVP now. He'll never get credit because that's historically what it would have been for everybody else. And I've been shocked throughout his career for 23 years now, how the media covers for him time and time again, to where I mean, and even he said in an interview that first season in Miami, he said, Yeah, I think when we all joined up, MVPs were done for all of us, and it's about a bigger goal. And then he wins two MVPs. Now with the Luca stuff, you see Luca go from a universal top two, three player to a fringe top seven, top eight player by the media. It's just shocking to me that 23 years in, how they cover for this guy, and I can't think of any other reason than financial motivation, like you just said.

SPEAKER_00: 7:26

It it just has to be. Um, I and I think it I think it it honestly is like LeBron came along in a in a perfect time for him. Uh, because you know, my Michael Jordan, you know, he I think of Michael Jordan because, you know, I'm a child of the 80s and I grew up in the 90s. So I think of Michael Jordan's career as ending in 1998. But um, yeah, you know, of course he went to the Wizards for two years. I believe his second year was 2002, 2003, uh, was Jordan's like official last year in the NBA. The next year is the year that LeBron James came in. So the NBA was, you know, soul searching at that point, trying to find the next torch bearer that was gonna pick up for Michael Jordan. And of course, you and I, being Kobe guys, we're like, well, they don't have to look too far because they've got Kobe Bryant in the NBA right now. Like, what are we what are we even talking about? But for whatever reason, you know, Kobe had some right around that same period of time, uh, Kobe had the off-court, you know, transgressions in Eagle County, Colorado, in addition to at that point in time, they went through the playoffs that year. They lost to the Pistons. Shaq stuff, yeah. And then he forces Shaq, allegedly forced Shaq and Phil Jackson out. So then Kobe becomes this pariah of this selfish, shot chucking ball hog who would rather, you know, score points than win championships. So all of that coupled with the off-court stuff, like all going on at the same time that Michael Jordan was exiting the NBA, and then this chosen one, LeBron James, that one of you know the most heralded uh blue chip recruits we'd ever seen coming out of high school, just aligned perfectly with that time frame. And the NBA and all of the NBA's media just kind of married themselves to him at that point. And it's just been, I guess, self-preservation all these years that they that they their viewership to some degree is tied intrinsically to him. So they have to do everything they can to uplift, protect him. And of course, we see how that's gone for the NBA. Bad move because they're at nearly unprecedented low points in popularity and viewership.

SPEAKER_01: 9:36

And it well, and and this was what I was gonna say when I was originally um, and then you got me excited about all this other stuff. But that's the thing that is heartwarming to me is first I see your videos and I go, oh wow, well, uh somebody else exists that thinks this way. But not only, I mean, then I see all the people in your network, hundreds and thousands of people uh that realize this. And that's heartwarming to see that people see the same stuff that we see. And it and it actually feels like, and I don't know if it's just the YouTube universe I'm living in, but it feels like the majority of people realize this whole thing is a sham.

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

You know, a lot of people do. Um, and a lot of people, I don't want to age it or put, you know, put certain parameters on it based on, you know, when you were born. But I feel like my audience skew is a little bit older, like people, I think you and I are about the same age. People, you know, I'd say maybe like 30, 35 to 50 are like the real demographic, I think, that just they've just grown, they've just seen it throughout their lives. Like we've grown up watching it and and we realize it easier. To me, the most rewarding thing is when I get younger kids on my channel or in the comments that are like, yo, Scap, I'm you know, I'm only 22 and you know, you've opened my eyes. Yeah, I think LeBron's overrated now. I got Kobe over LeBron now. So I get I get quite a bit of feedback like that. So that that's really what what warms my my old heart at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 11:04

You know, Scap, I was gonna tell you because now, so I was born in '83. I think we're about the same age, like you said. I don't know how I'll just not, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

I was also born in '83.

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

Okay, well, so we're not all, brother. We're in our prime. We're in our prime. Telling you. Anyway, oh man. So let me ask you this. So it's been tied to, like you said, and I love the way you put it to people like Stephen A, people like ESP, even Skip Bayless, who I was a big fan of until he kind of went weird the last few years here, their revenue was tied in one way or another to LeBron. What do you think happens now that he really is at the end? And you're starting to feel some of this shift with the Lakers supporting Luca over LeBron and catering to Luca instead of LeBron. Where do you think this goes? Do you think it that they stick to their guns, or do you think that there is kind of a hard ending for him here?

SPEAKER_00: 11:57

Yeah, I think the NBA is in a tough place. They they basically painted themselves into the corner because they've tied themselves to LeBron and stuck with him so rigidly throughout the years that now it's gonna be a very difficult pivot point for them. They have a lot of great young stars right now in the NBA. Had they started marketing them more and building them more, you know, a couple years ago, they would be in a in a much better point for transition now. But now I think they're they've kind of they've just lost their way. So I think it's gonna be, they're probably gonna bottom out uh even more. I know it's hard to imagine uh because they're already, they're already at a pretty big low point here. Uh essentially, starting at the 2020 finals, uh if you want to call it that, the the COVID um, you know, affected season, that the last one that LeBron won, that is still now the lowest rated finals in in NBA final season. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

Okay. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 12:54

Yeah, I I believe the average viewer share uh per per game was like 7 million uh viewers, which is just insanely low. Um, you know, the if you go back to, I know it's a this could this is an outlier one too, but the the 98 last dance uh Jordan Bulls one, like that was pulling in, you know, upper 20, like 26, 27 million, and it peaked at like 35 million in one game there in that series. So, and LeBron and the Lakers were pulling sub seven mil per game in 2020. And it's been bad ever since. Uh, the last like four or five, not as bad as that, but it, but, but it really hasn't recovered. And I I feel like the finals are essentially a microcosm for the popularity of your sport. Like that that is the the pinnacle of the season. Like that should be the most watched moment um of the year is those the are those finals games. And when you look at how poor they are, um, comparatively speaking, from a historical standpoint, um it doesn't, it obviously does not speak um very favorably to what LeBron James has has yielded for the NBA. And I think it's it's actually gonna probably get worse when he leaves because that they're gonna just be at this crisis point where they haven't prepared anybody. And none of the viewers are prepared with this next wave because they've just stuck so rigidly to not just LeBron, primarily him, but even like Steph Curry and Kevin Durant. Like, those are still look at the Christmas games we have, Stefan, for next year. Like, it's it's still all built around LeBron, Kevin Durant, and Steph Curry. Like, we need to start thinking beyond that. Like Nicola. They haven't even pushed Giannis. I know I I hear you. I hear you. And it was basically like 2019 when when Giannis became, I think Giannis won back-to-back league MVPs and a defensive player of the year during those that 2019-2020 season. Then, of course, the emergence of Nikola Jokic came like immediately after that. And neither of those guys seem to tickle the fancy of the NBA's uh marketing machine. So I I just don't know what what has to happen to open these guys' eyes, but it's gonna take these these older statesmen, probably their retirements, for the NBA finally to begrudgingly move on.

SPEAKER_01: 15:08

Well, and uh I've got uh two things I want to hit on because you touched on something I've thought a lot about privately, and I wanted to ask you about, you know, going back to 03-04, LeBron comes in the league, Jordan retired the year before. I mean, the timing could not have been worse for Kobe for the reasons you alluded to, the Shaq stuff, the Colorado stuff. And it felt like they had no choice, like you said, to hitch their wagon to this guy. And then everything that's happened since then has been about backing up the opinion. I mean, I remember, and you might be one of the only other people on the face of the earth that might remember this, but it when the Heat went to the finals the first year when they ultimately got destroyed by the Mavericks, but when they beat the Bulls in the conference finals, they got I went to ESPN.com and I remember there was an article on the front page that said LeBron reaches his place as the greatest of all time. And he still had no championships at that point. So they were saying this, you know, before he had won any championships, and then it's just been about backing up that nar that narrative and that argument. Okay, so here's my question. If what they did with that strategy, if it's disgusting to basketball purists and people that really care about the validity of the sport, but it made them billions upon billions of dollars. I this is probably the most pro-Lebron thing I've ever said, but was that smart? Because I can as a business guy, I can understand like, okay, this is our marketing strategy. This makes sense. Let's do it. And who cares if there's 20% of the fans that see it and are upset by it, we're still making money.

SPEAKER_00: 16:46

Yeah, I mean, the NBA's always been a star-driven league. And they, I mean, it it it it absolutely LeBron. Look, if you love whether you love him or you hate him, uh, he he obviously he is a very divisive figure. So it it pr there pretty much is no in-between. You either love or hate LeBron James. Um, but he does engender, you know, viewership and and he and even just not just for the games, but for ESPN, like for all of their uh talking head shows, their debate shows and stuff. I mean, LeBron and the Lakers or LeBron and the Cavs or whatever, whatever team he's on, essentially, is always, you know, top-notch debate fodder. So it's it typically always leading the shows off. So I I don't think you can begrudge the marketing machine for making the decisions that they did. And it probably did, you know, even though the NBA is cratering out now, like I said, in its popularity, which they are, yeah, and uh and the viewership, but but yet they're still signing mega deals. That's what I mean. They just signed like a$77 billion deal or something like that, um, for 11, uh it's it's like 11 billion uh annually or something, nine or eleven billion annually, uh, with with NBC Disney and uh Amazon, I believe. So to your point, I guess from a from a marketing and from a dollar and cent standpoint, it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately, it it also put a lot of pressure on LeBron James, I think. Uh, pressure that he kind of helps to bring more upon himself. Yeah. And I I think it's it's destroyed his legacy to some degree, at least uh for people that are really paying attention.

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

Yeah, and I mean, I guess this is my nice LeBron portion of the podcast because, you know, I almost feel bad for him. And this is the question I've really wanted to ask you because I'm just curious if anyone else on the face of the earth remembers this. But there was a period in that time where, you know, inside the NBA had Kobe on as a guest. Um, and I remember they asked him who are the top five best players and who are the top five best teams in the NBA. And the tone of that interview, and I wish I could pull it up. Maybe I'll try to find it and put a clip in here. But um, the tone of the interview was like they were scolding Kobe. I remember he he included himself in the top five, and they said, Well, we're, you know, we congratulate you for putting yourself at fifth and not putting you at number one. That's humble of you. And he was like, Well, I didn't put it in order, I just tell you these are the top. And then they had LeBron on like a week or two later for the same interview, and they asked him the same questions. And uh LeBron said, Hey, if I see Kobe on the wing, I'm gonna pass it to him. And this was like his first or second season. And I remember thinking LeBron even realizes Kobe's better than him. And I almost feel like he was forced into this situation where he had to create this false narrative uh by the big wigs at ESPN or whoever to present himself in this way. It almost makes me feel bad for the guy. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00: 19:42

Yeah, LeBron, I think I saw him play uh in high school. I saw Kobe play in high school, and you could see the differential. I mean, you could see Kobe Bryant was an alpha on the court. You could just see his tenacity, his desire to just break down people, uh, you know, whoever was in front of him, even if it was three or four players. LeBron had this just passive mentality, even when he was playing against substantially undermatched players from a physical standpoint on a high school level. Like he still just had more of like a pass first mentality, even at that level back when he was 18, 17, 18 years old. And I don't think it never, it never truly changed. Like LeBron just he isn't, he doesn't have the alpha mindset. It's why he continues to roam around the NBA and try to join other, you know, alpha caliber players. And it's why he doesn't mind, you know, deferring or saying, even, I guess it even if just early in his career that he would defer to someone like Kobe Bryant. I think often of when they were all on the same team, the 08 Redeem team. And uh, you know, that they did do a good documentary uh piece on it about how just how in awe all of those guys were of Kobe Bryant at the time. And they were they were all established stars by that point in time. Um, you know, LeBron James had was was just on the cusp of winning some MVPs, and and you know, Kobe came in and and basically all of them, even LeBron admittedly, was like, yo, this guy's just different from us. So I mean, they they could LeBron could admit it at least at an early stage. Now, of course, he's his brain has been warped and he just thinks he's the greatest.

SPEAKER_01: 21:19

Yeah, and that and that's why I have no sympathy for him now. Because yeah, the last 10-15 years, he's bought all in. And and hey, I mean, why wouldn't he? He's worth a billion dollars for doing it. And if you're gotta get, you know, honestly, if somebody gave me a billion dollars to act like a fraud, I would do it too, honestly. So, I mean, whatever. But I mean, it's it's inferior for those who care about basketball. But um, well, okay, I'm gonna go ahead, I'll get into the uh the modern day stuff I wanted to ask you about because this is one thing that I have to give you pure credit for. The thing that you have converted me on, that everybody in your fan base really knows, is you're a diehard Jokic guy. And I was not, and then when I heard you talking so positively about him, I thought, well, maybe I ought to rethink this thing and I started paying more attention. Now you got me on the bandwagon. I I would pick Giannis over Jokic, but I respect him now 200% more than I did before watching your channel. But talk to me about your favorite players that are playing right now and why you have uh attached yourself to them.

SPEAKER_00: 22:20

Yeah, I mean, you just named them. Like I I think very uh I think very little of a lot of the the modern current players. Uh, two of the ones, though, that I really do have a lot of respect and admiration for is Giannis Anteticumpo and Nicole Jokic. And I wasn't a big Jokic guy either initially. Um the first two MVPs he won, you know, he was flaming out in the playoffs, but he also was missing either his best player or his next best two players in in those playoff runs. So, but still at the time I was like, well, okay, Winsley's two MVPs and he's losing in the first and second round. Like, this is this is another LeBron situation we have going on here. Um, but when I really dialed in myself and started paying attention to what was happening, the supporting cast that he had there, um, it just kind of became reminiscent to me of at the time when I when he won me over, of Giannis, what he did a couple years earlier. And the reason why I kind of lumped them both in, you know, in in the same kind of deal, and I think of them both uh very highly is because these are two guys both now a decade plus in the league. They were drafted really to untenable uh situations in terms of like the franchise, not great, you know, well-known franchises, not big, uh very, very rich franchises. They're you know, two small markets in Milwaukee and Denver. And these two guys just go about their work. They never they never demand, you know, more help. They don't throw their teammates under the bus ever. They don't beg for trades. They don't leave, you know, they don't stab their franchise in the back and go and team up with some top five player. These are the two to me, these are the two best players that the the NBA that the world has had for probably about five or six years now, since 2019, I would say. These are the two best players on earth. Yeah, and yet they just still stay in these small markets with underwhelming amounts of support and cast. They never complain, and they both have won championships. Like they actually delivered. This would be this would be akin to if LeBron didn't leave Cleveland uh to go to Miami, or at least if LeBron won, actually delivered a title to Cleveland before leaving in his first seven years. So these two guys, to me, I put these guys at a higher tier uh for my money than even LeBron James. These are to me, these are the two best players since Kobe Bryant retired in my estimation.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

Without a doubt, I agree 100%. And honestly, for me, Giannis basically is a better defending, better rebounding LeBron James. If you didn't have the weird hype, like that's him, you know, which is a great player. That's why, you know, again, I feel bad in a way that the media has put us in this position where they've got LeBron falsely propped up so high because it'd be nice to give him credit for being an all-time great player like Giannis or like Carl Malone. But you know, it's just not that. Well, it makes me think, too, how much luck and timing plays into how your legacy is perceived, right? Because to me, Giannis has got to be one of the most unlucky and Jokic, too, you know, with Jamal Murray getting injured every other year and all this stuff. But man, like talk. I mean, I think it what is it like three, four years in a row? Either he himself has been injured at playoff time or his second or third best player is injured.

SPEAKER_00: 25:34

I mean, both, yeah, both both players. Um, Yonna, yeah, Giannis missed the entirety of they obviously lost in in seven in the first round when he didn't play uh with, I don't know, they they were calling it a calf strain, but I think he had some Achilles tendonitis or something going on. And then, you know, he hurt his back uh in the first game, through I guess it was four years ago, and he missed the first really three games, and that's what the year they lost to Miami. Then Damian Lillard was was was hurt when they find he finally gets a top-notch star, and Damian Lillard gets hurt then. Uh, and the same, like you said, same can be true with Nicole Jokic. Starting in his first league MVP year, uh, it's been five seasons now from age 25 to 30 for Nicole Jokic. And Jamal Murray missed two full postseasons in that five-year run. So his second best player missed altogether two full runs. And then Michael Porter Jr. missed one of those runs as well. So his top two options other than himself. Then Murray, of course, wasn't, you know, close to being healthy last last season. And then this year, um, you know, Aaron Gordon got hurt. Russell Westbrook was playing with with a broken hand, we now find out. So it just seems like those two guys just can't catch a break um with the health either to themselves or their supporting cast. And they don't have a great supporting cast to begin with. I was just gonna say, yeah. And yet, again, no complaints, and they still both have a title, which is why I just think like you could easily excuse away both of them not having any championships at this stage of their career. Specifically Jokic, who has never played with an all-star yet in 10 full years. Uh, he's the only player ever uh that can say that he is for the first 10 years of his career, he has not played with a single all-star, All-NBA caliber player or all-NBA defensive caliber selected player. He's the only player ever for 10 years of his career to not play with those guys. You could easily excuse away him when you again factor in the injuries as well, and yet he still found a way to win one. Again, this is just why I think so highly of him.

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

Well, and I know that's what you're kind of known for being uh an anti-Jamal Murray guy, just a little bit, right? Just a touch.

SPEAKER_00: 27:43

Yes, I do not think that highly of Jamal Murray. I think the problem is really, uh, Stefan, that the fact that he's so overpaid. I mean, he is uh making, I think he's gonna make 55 plus million uh into 58 million uh over the next like four seasons. And he, I mean, he misses 20 to 30 games a year every year. He shows up kind of out of shape to start the season, plays himself in uh to shape, but then typically carries some kind of an injury concern into the postseason. And then he's you know hot and cold in the playoffs. So I just think Nicole Yokic, he Jamal Murray would be a great third option on a championship team. I don't really view him as like a strong second-tier player for a dynastic type team, which what what we're talking about here is Nicole Jokic needs to win more than one championship to be considered top 10 all time. So yeah, I'm I'm pretty hard on Jamal Murray. I'll give you that.

SPEAKER_01: 28:38

I mean, and you've kind of converted me a little bit on that too, because you look at his consistency and his numbers, and it's underwhelming. I will tell you though, the only pro thing Jamal Murray, I'll say, that series that he had, I guess it was in the bubble against Donovan Mitchell, where they were both throwing back and forth 35, 40 point games. That was something else. But it's bizarre that you can't count on him for that. He has this incredibly high, high and then these shockingly low lows.

SPEAKER_00: 29:05

And he has he does have great moments. He's had in the whole 2023 run, he was fantastic. And of course, what happened in the 2023 year was the Nuggets easily won a championship. That that's my problem with Murray. Like if he if he just played up to his potential more frequently in the playoffs, they would win more. And some of that obviously is tied to his to his health issues, um, which I again I think is somewhat tied to his lack of conditioning and work that he's putting in in the offseason. But I mean, there's no doubt the guy has a high ceiling, but the the question really is, like you like you alluded to, is consistency. And sometimes, you know, consistency is better. Like if he would just be consistently good, it it would be better than his, you know, great highs, but then his terrible low points.

SPEAKER_01: 29:51

Yeah, and it's bad. When it's bad, it's bad for him. It really is. Well, let me are you uh as a fan of both then, were you happy that Giannis decided to stay in in Milwaukee? And I I've seen your videos. You're you're semi-happy with the Nuggets offseason this year, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:07

Yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard because I I really strive. One of the things I I I pride myself in in being is consistent. And I and I I strive. One of the things I never want to come off as in in life, but definitely on on my channel or me as a as a personality is being any kind of a hypocrite. So a lot of people they're they're they're not nuanced enough to understand the context of what I'm talking about. I go into great detail in trying to outline it and and define why I feel the way I feel. But I I have been wanting Nicole Jokic and Giannis and Tetacumpo to get away from these franchises for a couple years now. Yeah. But then all of the LeBron stan boys will come back at me. Well, well, Skap, this is just so utterly inconsistent of you. What a hypocrite. Like you crush LeBron all the time for the stuff that he did, and now you're you're championing Giannis and Jokic leaving, but it's not the same, and there are levels to this. Like, I don't begrudge LeBron for leaving Cleveland after seven years, um, but I it's just the decisions he made, the place that he went, the the tactics that he took um when he left is what I have a problem with. If LeBron wanted to go somewhere, not like another top three players team, like he did with Dwayne Wade, uh, you know, or go to the West or something like that, maybe get one other guy with him. I would have been totally fine with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:30

So well, and and I don't want to cut you off, but I got I mean, that's the thing. It's not so much the tactic. To me, it's it's the reaction to the tactic. Because I mean, people forget for those, I guess, that don't. I feel like everybody knows this stuff, but maybe not. I mean, Dwayne Wade averaged 30 the season before he went, he joined LeBron. Chris Bosch averaged 24 and 11, right? So, I mean, any other player, any other player that does that, they can win titles. They'll get it'd be like Kevin Durant with the Warriors. To like, okay, yeah, you got two titles, but we're not really giving you full credit. And it's just so bizarre to me that Kobe plays with one all-time great teammate his entire 20-year career, and those three rings just don't count at all to some people. LeBron's had that for all four of his rings.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

It's it's absolutely crazy. And just to really put a bow on the Jokic thing, I did I did a breakdown of like what Dwayne Wade did the year prior to LeBron and him teaming up. Like, what was his MVP finish? You know, what was his his advanced analytics, the player efficiency rating, box plus minus, value over replacement, win share. It the most um accurate comp in today's year, like around you know the 2024 season, the most accurate comp to Dwayne Wade would have been Luka Doncic that year. Wow. So it basically would have been if Nicola Jokic went to Luka Doncic's team and then they recruited Anthony Davis, basically, would have been the comp for Chris Bot. Like that is essentially what if Nicola Jokic did exactly apples to apples, what LeBron did, that's what it would be. And that's not what I was asking. That's not when I say I want Jokic to get the hell out of Denver, it's not. I'm not trying to get it. Yeah. Absolutely. But but to you to your Kobe point, though, real quick. Yes, absolutely unequivocal. Like Kobe has played with with two top 75 players in his entire career. Just two. Shaquille O'Neal for the first eight years of his career, and then Steve Nash, when Steve Nash was 38 years old. I forgot about Steve Nash, yeah. Right. And it but he only played 50 games that year because he was he was uh so injured at that point. And that was the year Kobe ruptured his Achilles, so they they didn't even get a playoff run together. So that is literally it. Um, that Kobe played with his entire for his entire career. It seems like LeBron has top 50 to 75 players, you know, on every team since he was 26 years old. Every single season. He always needs more, Stefan. He he needs more because if he's not winning, it doesn't matter if he has a top three, five player on his team or whatever. Like he clearly he needs more. It's not enough. If if the great LeBron is incapable of winning with the pieces he has around him, it's not his fault. It's gotta be the the supporting players and the front office for not putting the right players around him, of course.

SPEAKER_01: 34:30

Yeah, and honestly, Jay, if I uh if I had the uh the editing talent and any knowledge of YouTube whatsoever, like you do, I would do it myself, but I'd rather you do it and you know, no pressure. But I'd love to see a video where we take the clips of what the same people said at the time of the Luca trade and then show the recent clips of what they're saying now five, six months later, because it's just disgusting how many excuses this guy needs. And I mean, like just the Lakers in the playoffs this last season. How many people on FS1 and ESPN, you know, Lakers and five and all that crap, picked them to win the championship or at least get to the conference finals. And then when they get smoked in the first round, I hear people saying LeBron's the best player on the team. And it's not his fault. It's Luke is fat and uh, you know, they don't have a center and all that. Well, where was that intel when you picked him?

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

Yeah, it and it's it seems like it is literally every year. Um I I tell the I tell this story uh uh often. I it's just so funny to me. Um, Chris Carter, you know, Hall of Fame wide receiver, most most known for the the Minnesota, his time spent with the Minnesota Vikings, but he started his career off in Philadelphia and he had some off-field transgressions uh early on in his career, had was mixed up with with some negative elements and almost derailed his entire career. So they had, you know, they have rookie symposiums every year for the incoming uh, you know, first year players into the NFL. And they have various guys, veterans come in and talk about their experience and you know, things to avoid or you know, how to target success. And they had Chris Carter on, and you know, presumptively, he was just gonna talk about how, you know, he made mistakes early on and how to avoid it. And and he's dead serious. Like it was not a joke. He said, you have to have yourself a fall guy. Like you have to have yourself a fall guy in your forgot about that, but yeah. That's what I think of when I think of LeBron. You've got to have yourself a scapegoat or a fall guy if you're LeBron. Like, and it's typically, unfortunately for them, the best player on the team other than him, or maybe even better than him. Like I think AD has been better than him for the last couple years, and Luca obviously is. But of course, those are the primary fall guys. It can't be LeBron ever.

SPEAKER_01: 36:49

Well, and I even the guys and gals that support LeBron James acknowledge this stuff, they just don't acknowledge the reason. Like I know Shannon Sharp, I was a big undisputed fan um before they started sexually assaulting everybody, I guess. But anyway, but but I I remember even Shannon Sharp, who's one of the ultimate LeBron guys, they I can't remember who the shooter was, but they traded for one of these uh top shooters, and he said, Yeah, you know, the the lights get bright when they're playing with LeBron, they don't shoot as well. You know, it was Malik Beasley, that's who it was. Malik Beasley, and he's like, Yeah, you know, these and they're trashing Malik Beasley, who had a killer, I mean, killer season this last year with the Pistons. But and I'm like, Well, all I've heard this guy's whole career is he makes his teammates better because he's so unselfish. Who are the teammates that he makes better? Because everybody I see play with him, their legacy gets destroyed. Anthony Davis goes from a top five player to street clothes, Dwayne Wade goes from a top three player to washed up and injury riddled. Chris Bosch is Bosch Spice. I mean, who does he make better?

SPEAKER_00: 37:57

Even uh let me let me layer this one in on you, too. Kevin Love, I talk about this name a lot too. I just want to give him a shout-out. That guy was top, he was top three the year before he teamed up with uh with Kyrie and LeBron in Cleveland. He was top three in PER, BPM, value over replacement, and win share. Top three in every all of those metrics. And he finished, he was second all all in second team all NBA that year, second only because he's a forward by designation. And Kevin Durant and LeBron James were first team forwards that year. Otherwise, and those were the guys that were in those top three and those four advanced metrics I just mentioned. So Kevin Love um was pretty much a fringe top five to six player himself uh that year prior to going to team up uh in Cleveland and destroyed him too.

SPEAKER_01: 38:47

I don't want to cut, I'm sorry for cutting you off, but I just you you've hit a another pressure point for me there. So your boy here made a video, which I don't do very often on sports. It got a whopping 21 views, but I did the screen, he was uh ranked on ESPN rank best players, the fourth best player in the NBA that year. You can be my 22nd view, go check it out.

SPEAKER_00: 39:10

I will I I will do that, and I I gotta echo your message on that too. That's like I said, top five to six player, and then all of a sudden he's a he's a bum all of a sudden in Cleveland when he goes to team up with LeBron.

SPEAKER_01: 39:22

It's sickening. I do feel like, and I don't know. I mean, I've heard you say on your channel that you're kind of a pessimist. I mean, uh, with this stuff, and I I don't know if I am or not, but I've seen LeBron shift things, like I said earlier, when when he went to Miami, and I'm like, oh good, we got him now. He can't get his way out of this. I've seen him shift the narrative so many times. Like I always expect that's what's gonna happen. It feels like he's walking into a unique situation he hasn't been in before his entire life, really, because he's been catered to even as a child and a teenager and so on, to where he's not gonna be the star. Of stars. And I and I'll throw this at you. Knowing him being kind of a narcissist the way he appears to be, I would assume he wants a great farewell tour. Where is he going to get that farewell tour? Because it's not going to be with the Lakers, not how he wants it.

SPEAKER_00: 40:15

LeBron has been put in a very difficult situation by the Luca trade. So, you know, and that's the thing where I was, I was kind of excited when the trade was made because I foresaw this endgame coming where LeBron has structured everything to be in LA and to finish his career in LA. Yeah. And lo and behold, the the franchise has decided to move on from him. They they were presented with an opportunity to get Luca and they took it. And then with the sale of the team now, Mark Walter comes in as the owner, and he just doesn't have any positive feelings for LeBron at this point. I think in a perfect world, I think LeBron would have declined the player option for in terms of the Lakers. He would have declined the player option this summer and just left it, left the franchise now and let them start building towards Luca. But it you you're you absolutely hit the nail on the head. LeBron is gonna want some kind of a grandiose tour that's just about him. And it's the Lakers, not only is it about Luca, but they want it to be about winning. They don't want this, you know, disruption of these nightly LeBron antic tours for the next two years now, um, or you know, at least for the entire next season. Like they want to move on and try to capitalize around Luka Doncic and start winning and competing for championships. So I I think LeBron, the writing is on the wall. LeBron is not gonna retire at the end of this season. And I think he is not going to be a Laker next season. I think that much is obvious. Um so now the question shifts to like you said, where where? And I honestly, I don't have the crystal ball to see it. I have to be honest with you. He's he's either gonna go to some you know, subpar team that he can just be the quote best player, jack up 20 shots a night, um, you know, go go to you know these different arenas every night and and have it be all about him, or he's gonna want to go try to compete for a championship. But none of these contenders um that he that he that he has been linked to, such as like maybe a return to Cleveland or Dallas, they don't have the cap structure to fit him in. Yeah, so he's gonna he's gonna have to take you know the vet minimum or the mini mid-level exception. Can you see a world where LeBron goes from making$55 million this year to like three or four next season? I don't see that.

SPEAKER_01: 42:33

No. And that's the and that goes back to the ego. And again, I I feel like this is kind of maybe other people would laugh at me saying that, but I feel like I'm being pro-Lebron a little bit here because I feel bad for him because you can just feel how weak he is, right? Like mentally weak. Furiates me that every freaking time that LeBron and his contract gets brought up, going back five, 10 years now, they bring up Kobe signing what wasn't a max deal. You know where I'm going with it. With when he tore his Achilles and the Lakers offered him, I think it was two years for 48 million, uh, which is today what a role player would get. But um, and they say, well, yeah, you know, Kobe taking all that money, that's why the team that, you know, Kobe would have played for whatever made sense, I believe. LeBron can't do that because his ego won't allow him to take 10, 12 million when somebody else is making 40 or 50.

SPEAKER_00: 43:23

Exactly. And and the and the thing with the Lakers, you know, a lot of people talk about how lucky Kobe Bryant was to be a to be a Laker. I I actually don't see it that way. I I think it was a detriment to him and to his to his overall legacy. I I I think they they actively kind of sabotaged his career multiple in multiple different um stages. And one one of which being the the roster they surrounded him with, you know, and the coach that they picked with Mike DeAntoni, um, you know, for the twilight years of Kobe's career. Like they the the Lakers essentially admitted, like, we don't have the roster to compete at all. So we might as well just give Kobe the money and let him just draw in, you know, sell tickets for us, like keep us, you know, somewhat newsworthy because of just his presence. You know, if if they were actually trying to build a championship caliber team around him at that point, he would have taken less, to your point.

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

So you if you had to for your gut, what do you see LeBron doing then? I mean, obviously Cleveland makes the most sense, but Dan Gilbert's no fan. He doesn't want to help him roll it out.

SPEAKER_00: 44:27

I mean, like, like I said, Cleveland is arguably the best team in the Eastern Conference at this point. Um, you know, Boston has gutted their team and they are going to be without Tatum for the entire year with the Achilles, and then who knows how he comes back thereafter. The Knicks are gonna be there. The Pacers, who the representative of the East last year, like they're without Halliburton now for the whole year uh because he ruptured his Achilles. So I mean, you can make a really real case here that the Cleveland is they, you know, they won 60, I think 64 games, second to only Oklahoma City this past season. So probably for the next year or two, they have this window and they have a roster that's already pretty loaded and stacked up. Like I don't, I just don't think they have room for LeBron James. I I think what makes the most sense would be Dallas, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he can mentor another very, you know, heralded blue chip caliber guy in Cooper Flag, and he can reteam with Kyrie and AD. He's got Jason Kidd there, who Kidd was uh an assistant coach, I believe, on the 2020 Bubble Lakers championship teams. So that Dallas makes the most sense to me. It can't happen this year unless it's a buyout, and I don't think the Lakers are gonna do that. So it would have to be next season in free agency. But again, like looking at the structure of the book um and their contracts, it's gonna be some kind of a vet minimum for LeBron. So like they he really has to dig deep and search his soul. I honestly, Stefan, have a gun to my head, I think his ego will be too big. I think he's probably gonna end up in some lower tier team where he can just go and be the marquee show pony and just go about his little retirement tour and maybe take Bronny along with him.

SPEAKER_01: 46:11

I forgot about Bronny. Uh what my biggest fear with it is, Skev, honestly, is that and honestly, this is what I I hope I'm wrong. I but this is what I think is probably gonna happen is he's gonna survey the landscape, like you said, find out there's not a perfect fit, and he's just gonna continue to hold the Lakers hostage, maybe take 25, 30 million, 40, something like that, because that's probably where he'll still get the most money, unless, like you said, the new ownership has some some balls and they decide to stop playing this game with him that Genie Bus has been playing. And I think he's just gonna continue to suck them dry, um, and then have the media say what a great guy he is for only taking 37 million or whatever it is. That's I hope I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00: 46:52

It will be interesting. Uh Luca, because remember, Luca signed the two, it's a technically a three-year, I think 165 million contract, but he's got a player option in year three. So they're still working to kind of appease him and sell him on them. They have two guaranteed years to do it. So if LeBron is still, you know, piggybacking around and kind of bringing them down and his opportunities at competing, I mean, that's that's a delicate tightrope that the Lakers are gonna have to walk.

SPEAKER_01: 47:22

Yeah. Well, Jay, uh, thank you so much for doing this. Uh it's uh an honor. And for anybody listening to this, if you somehow are listening to this and you're subscribed to me, but you're somehow not subscribed to him, if you want to uh hear from a great guy that's a sports historian that has a lot of takes, and also you're gonna be doing NFL, I know, this season more prominently. Go check out SCAP Attack. But uh thank you, my friend. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:47

Stefan, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Uh, look forward to you know furthering the relationship. And uh definitely it was an honor to talk to you tonight, and we'll have to do it again sometime.