What is an opportunity creator? What is the difference between kind and direct vs. nice?- One Second by How to be Second

Nathan and Mondo unpack their definitions of opportunity creator. Together they explore how Ones and Seconds see the world differently—why some people dump Legos on the floor and others organize them into rockets—and how those wiring differences make partnerships powerful. Along the way, they dive into risk, ego, faith, calling, and the courage it takes to leave a good seat in search of a better one.

Then they dive into the messy gap between being nice and being direct and kind—and why so many people confuse the two. Mondo unpacks how honesty without extra explanation often gets mislabeled as arrogance, especially in cultures that expect niceness as the norm. Nathan reflects on his own journey from being direct and harsh to learning how clarity and kindness can coexist, even if it means giving up the comfort of “being nice.” Along the way, they explore people-pleasing, relationship dynamics, and what it really takes to polish old habits without losing your voice.

If you want more like this, subscribe or find more on Howtobesecond.com

This is One Second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities where we're exploring how we're different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at How to be Second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is what we call a natural 1iC, or a Visionary. Enjoy. 

Transcript

Nathan 0:00

Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is one second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities, reacting raw to questions from people like you, and exploring how we are different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at how to be second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is a natural OneIC.

Mondo 0:25

nathan. Our last episode was so dope. I actually just listened to it yesterday on a walk and I was just feeling real inspired. And there was one thing in that conversation that you said, and I was like, actually have. An internal definition for what that means. So let me just ask you the question. the last episode, you talked about an opportunity creator and you were like, Mando, like you're an opportunity creator, and I would like as Nathan to be an opportunity creator. And I was like, Hmm, that's an interesting statement. One. I guess I just answered, are you an opportunity creator? And you just told me like maybe kindest sometimes, but two, like what is it? Like, define that for me and help me understand what an opportunity creator is to you.

Nathan 1:13

I love this question mostly because I am struggling to understand it, right? So as a second, I. I've spent a lot of time around, um, actually, let me stop. Lemme go all the way back up. Executive communication style, answer first, context second. The answer is someone who asks for help without a plan. That's the answer. That's what an opportunity creator is. You and I have talked a bunch of times about, so now context. You and I have talked a bunch of times about like how a one, right? The one I see, what their standard thing is, first of all is to have enough ego from somehow to believe that something can be true in the world when it's not like, uh, for what reason? No idea. Maybe no reason because Right, this rocket will go to space. Why? Because I am powerful. The end and seconds, so like the Legos are all over the floor. The, the rocket booster is there, the whatever, and seconds are like. There's Legos on the floor. Like now I come in, I organize all the Legos, like now everything can get done. I make sure that the rocket booster can say strapped to the actual rocket so that it can make it to space so that we can do all of this stuff, right? So like I harness that energy and, between the two of us, better together, something can become true. Actually, here's the thing. If you said. I'm going to set out all of these already built Legos. Then I would walk in and I'd be like, well, there's not really a lot to do here, right? So I'd be kind of stuck. So if you walked up to me and you're like, Nathan, I want you to do these very specific things. That's like now we're all the way down into just sort of like, I don't know, labor for hire, right? Like it's, I'm not helping you. You're delegating like a task to me that's not helping. Um. But when you just open face, go help. Like now I can step in with all of my superpowers and I'm like, this is an opportunity. This is a person who has created a void in the world that I now can sort out, I can help accomplish a vision. I can chart a path to getting there. Like I, you've created space for my superpowers to actually like, exist and be relevant. I as a second don't do that. I suck at that actually. And this is something I've had a really hard time with, especially as like I've tried to communicate my value over the course of my life and that's like, I walk in and I'm like, well, first of all, it sounds re I discovered it sounds really egotistical to say I'm kind of good at everything. I'm saying it out loud in like a facetious way right now, because I, I know now that it sounds like that. Um, but I, I thought it was just because I could never decide. So like advocating for my place, my value in a, in somewhere. I, I was just trying to say like, I can be helpful in whatever way is helpful. I'm going to figure it out. I'm able to figure it out. I'm able to work with a shockingly low number of resources. My figure it out rate is so high you wouldn't believe. So just tell me what the problem is and I'll take it from there. You don't need to worry and like communicating that is really. Ineffective

Mondo 4:28

Yeah.

Nathan 4:29

like so I would basically, the place where I and many other seconds have found ourselves is that we just go from problem to problem to problem, like unsolved problem. Lego bend dumped all over the floor with no plan. So we're actually really opportunistic. So people who are willing to dump the Legos all over the floor and then have no further right direction, those are opportunity creators,

Mondo 4:57

So lemme ask a

Nathan 4:58

and especially if you have money to back that up.

Mondo 5:02

Yeah. Okay. Let me ask a question

Nathan 5:04

I.

Mondo 5:04

How do you define your position as the head of how to be second? Did you create an opportunity was it just like an opportunistic intersection? trying to discern. Did you just stretch yourself in a way, right? Like, I guess, let me like try to put this hat on for a little bit. Like, help me understand how you got there.

Nathan 5:26

Definitely that I think I've actually said recently, like I am stretching into being what? Testing the waters of what it looks like to be an opportunity creator. And that is to, to say help and then to stop talking

Mondo 5:37

Hmm.

Nathan 5:37

as a second. Most of us ask for help in exactly the same ways. Which sounds funny now that I'm gonna say it out loud, but it, first of all, it is to our, our figured out muscles are so big, they're like literally blinding. Like, just imagine a person who skipped leg day for 20 straight years, but like never missed a bicep day. Never. Right. My biceps are so big, they, they cover my eyes and that's my figured out rate. I, I genuinely believe and I have a lot of proof. That I can figure anything out. I also have this deep risk aversion that I navigate the world with. Like the combination of these two things is makes me not an opportunity creator. So I tend to ask for help, first of all, way too late.'cause I believe I can figure it out. So like nothing is risky because I'm relying on myself and I believe in myself more than anything else. And not in a OneIC way, not in like a, what I perceive as an egotistical way. I. It is egotistical and that obviously, but, uh, so I believe in myself deeply and I don't tend to ask for help until I'm already like all the way up the creek,

Mondo 6:44

Got it.

Nathan 6:44

in crisis because I have failed to figure it out. That's when I ask for help and I'm not willing to admit that until really far into the game.

Mondo 6:54

That's super

Nathan 6:55

And then, hang on, let me add this one more piece. I am almost there. I'm almost there. Uh, I'm sorry. The, so that, so we ask for help really late, and then once we get there, we're asking for help to solve our plan that we just failed at. So we're not asking generically for help. We're asking hyper specifically. It's like me trying to swim, being overboard, absolutely believing I can figure this out. I'm trying to swim. I start drowning. I don't ask for help. I don't say anything until I am literally drowning. And then when I do ask for help, I do not just scream help. I say Help. Please throw me the life preserver. It's orange and white. It's on the side of the boat. It's 10 feet to your left. That's the only, that is how I ask for help.

Mondo 7:46

So then when you ask for help, given how you started this story, you're not actually asking help. You're you're delegating a task like you just said, here's this very

Nathan 7:56

Correct.

Mondo 7:57

Ah, got it.

Nathan 7:59

Yes. I'm not asking for help. I am not an opportunity creator. I am actually really shit at asking for help.

Mondo 8:05

That's fascinating.

Nathan 8:06

Yeah.

Mondo 8:07

Okay, well now that I understand the definition in your brain of an opportunity creator, I definitely go off on that adventure with no plan for sure. I'm just like, did you guys hear music over there? And, and I just go over there and explore. Uh, and then if somebody wants to come with me. Then I guess we go pursue the music together. Hopefully I get close enough and I was like, oh, here's a piano. When I yell back and say, Hey guys, there's a piano out here. Like maybe I'm not far enough. That like nobody can hear me anymore, but hopefully like one person is like, was that Mondo? then like they come and help or like they come and explore with me. But I guess for me, when I think of maybe in this season in my life, it's a little bit different where before I actually did like think of like this tangible opportunity, like let's go build a thing, we can impact the world and here's a specific demo and all those things that come with business. Now it's more. I just want to experience and explore this adventure. like if an opportunity develops out of this, that's cool for other people, like that's dope. But if we're just having fun on this adventure, Nathan, we talked about this before we started this pod, like that's also just as cool because we're doing a thing together. so in this season, I guess I am, uh. Hopscotching between opportunity creator and like adventure journeymen because they, because if nobody else goes on the exploration with me, I'm still gonna go on it by myself and not create an opportunity for anybody else and just like bring the gifts back to the house after the journey's done. So.

Nathan 9:57

I think the surprising thing about that is you're an opportunity creator by way of being willing to take the risk of going off on your own in the first place.'cause like. A good example would be you, the way the podcast started that we're doing right now in the first place, right? You sent me like an image

Mondo 10:12

Oh

Nathan 10:12

and that was it. You texted me a picture.

Mondo 10:15

Yeah.

Nathan 10:15

And now we have like, we have a production schedule, we have graphics, we have software that we use. We have shorts on a YouTube channel we have, because you just dumped Legos on the floor and then took a picture of it and sent it to me and went, look.

Mondo 10:33

facts. That's facts. That's facts. I was actually on a walk today then thinking about this. Now I'm kind of getting in the zone on like where this is working in my brain. So I had this analogy today of like being in a stadium and watching a concert. And I was like, there are certain humans, and I'll call them one ics, who are sitting there watching the concert and they're like, concert's, cool. But this seat that I'm sitting in, it's not the best seat in the house. And then they're like. Let me go to the concession stands and get a hot dog. And then like they max the hot dog and they're just like, oh, that made it a little bit better, but like, that ain't it. right, let me go get uh, a pop. And they go do that. Come back, smash the pop. Mm. Yeah, that was cool, but that ain't it. And then let's just say they like. making more money, right, symbolically. And it's just like, yo, I'm gonna go get these steak bites. they cost like$37'cause it's at a stadium. And so they get these steak bites and come back to the seed and they're like, yeah, like that was, that was good. But man, still like it ain't it? And you see how this is unfolding and eventually you get some lick and then now you're like turned up. But like, still like it's fleeting. And eventually I feel like one ics get to this moment where they're like. The only way that I can change how I feel is if I go find another seat. And they're like, well, there's box seats. There's the front row, which is like vested like into the, you know, performance. There's like a seat on a complete other end and you're like, if I sit over there, maybe I can see it at a different angle, whatever. Right. And I would say the one I see always ends up leaving. Going to explore the stadium to find another seat. But there are so many humans who do not. But the reason why they don't get up and go explore that other seat is simply because they don't wanna leave the other people that are around them. Because it's their brother or it's their dad, or it's their kids, or it's their spouse, or it's their whatever. I would say that that OneIC is like, I have to leave this environment to go explore this unknown position. And then when they get there, like, there's some seats open up here. Oh, this box seat has more spots than just for me. Then you go back and try to pull the people that you love to come with you. And I guess I'm saying that because. Like that opportunity creator piece that you're talking about, it's literally like, let me go find a different seat. And then when you get there, they're just like, oh, there's other spots that Nathan can participate, or my other bestie can, or my cousin can. And uh, it makes life that much more enjoyable. So I'm with you. I.

Nathan 13:08

I think so, yes. You're triggering something that I've, uh, said for a while or, and that is like, cause I, I didn't have words for this until only a few years ago. The reason I even came up with this phrase, opportunity creator, I was saying opportunity generator for a little while.'Cause I was thinking of it specifically like in a business context. I was doing so much networking and I still do a lot of networking. Uh, but I love, you know, I love meeting new people. I was having all these conversations with people who are like looking for jobs. And they were also having tons and tons of like the, this generic advice that you get about like, oh, go to, you know, go do networking or, you know, jobs don't come from applications, which I think is, is pretty accurate statistically.

Mondo 13:50

Do.

Nathan 13:50

But they would be just networking their pants off and they would be like, oh, I met 30 people this week. And I would be like, great, and I started asking like, how many of those people do you think are actually opportunity generators? How many of those people will ever create a space that you have the chance to raise your hand for? I'm not saying make a space for you, I'm saying make a space that you could take a shot at. And they were like, just the concept was so strange. But again, as a second. That was like, it was deep set in me to be like, there is no value in my time to go meet somebody who is like on staff somewhere. Like, why would I do that? They can't possibly give me a job. I could potentially make friends with them if we have some sort of common interest, but like, why would I just generically meet people? They'll never be in a position of being an opportunity generator, whereby, which I could raise my hand and jump in. Now, clearly that's not totally accurate, but it held in the majority. And so I started asking them like, how many people did you meet that were opportunity generators that were going to try to force new reality into the world? Thereby what you just said, they were gonna be like dissatisfied with the seat they were in. Go on a journey and thus create either space around them on the journey or they were gonna land somewhere new and have space around them. And you, by being in proximity of that person, were going to get a shot at raising your hand to be like, wait, I want one of those. And I was like, you need to stop all of your networking. You need to only spend time around people that you can identify as opportunity generators. And since that, I, I still hold to that by the way. Like if you're looking for a role, networking is so great. Sure. Great network. Your little hard out, it's fucking great. You know how you're gonna find a job, you're gonna get in an opportunity generator. Some HR leaders are opportunity generators, but actually most HRR leaders are not opportunity generators. The people who are opportunity generators are the people who are making decisions that then HR carries out. And so if you are around, I mean, we all know it. We all know it. If the CEO says yes, everybody else does that shit. So like, uh, right. So you need to be near opportunity generators. No. And uh, job boards are just like a, they're like a gumball machine for generating opportunity. Right? Somebody already figured it out and then they stuck the gumball in the machine. Um. Sadly, what we have discovered is there are no prizes inside of that. Uh, I'm turning that machine as a fool's errand anyway. Uh, so this idea of like, wait a minute, what does it look like to be an opportunity generator? It was originally, it was very tied to the concept of getting money, right?'cause that's why I was having the conversation. And then I realized this is like a thing, like being an opportunity creator. Is like you can't do anything new in the world unless somebody leaves their seat and makes open spaces and goes on a journey and suddenly there's an opportunity

Mondo 17:00

Yeah. Like yeah. If

Nathan 17:01

it's created. Wow.

Mondo 17:03

Oh, you're spot on. If,

Nathan 17:04

Yeah.

Mondo 17:04

if

Nathan 17:05

And so,

Mondo 17:05

seeks it

Nathan 17:05

yeah.

Mondo 17:06

be there. So eventually, inevitably. Hmm.

Nathan 17:09

Right, because how do, how do all of these companies and how do all of these organizations get built in the first place? Some fucking one. I see. It's like

Mondo 17:17

Facts.

Nathan 17:18

this should exist and then it does like

Mondo 17:21

I was literally

Nathan 17:22

not a hundred percent of the time, but often.

Mondo 17:24

I was watching the, uh, uh, what was it called? Beyond a billion, concert for the Bible app. just the other day. And like the founder like told the story of how it came to be and he was like, well, actually I wanted to learn how to. Read or digest the Bible better. So I created this thing for me in an airport like, like this is just the moment, this you version, whatever. And because of that moment, it turned into something that a billion installs has happened over the next 15 years. But just like hearing the story of him having this idea, pursuing this random seat that wasn't there, he, he was like, I built a website. website was trash or it didn't work, but it just so happened that because we built this website, it was around the same time that Apple introduced the iPhone, we decided to build an app, that was not in the industry before that, and day one of the iPhone one being dropped. The Bible app was on there and we've been riding that wave ever since. so to your point, right, that opportunity creator like sees something, sees an opportunity or a problem they want to solve for themselves or others, and they go start. And if they continue to pursue it, inevitably they find themselves in a seat where other people are like, we want to help you build this thing too. That's dope.

Nathan 18:49

A thousand percent. I, one other thing that you said that I think is really important, and that is I used to drive people crazy with this. So I've dated a decent amount in my life, thankfully not for a very long time, or I would say I've dated better. Now that over the last 12 years that I've been married than I ever have before, uh, and I used to make sure it's just something like some moral choice that I made at some point, but I used to make sure that like I fully broke up with someone and was done, completed that relationship and had a time of being alone before I. Gave consideration to like finding a new relationship and I don't know, like what teenager saved by the bell shit that I was watching. That made me feel that strongly about making that decision. But I did make that decision and the way that I used to explain it is that I was like, there's nothing in the world that terrifies me more than leaving the oasis that I have found and going into the desert with the belief that there is a better thing available. I can't see from here. It is horrifying to me, but I have the chutzpah to do it. I'm willing to do it. There's nothing more miserable to me, but I'm willing. And so I would, I would say that all the time, I am not good at this, but what I am is willing. And what you just said about like leaving the seat. And going to find the new seat, just remind me so deeply of that choice that I made then. And it's a choice that I've been making throughout the my life, but always describing it in the same way. And that is at some point I just said, I know that this can't be it. And though I am terrified. I am willing to go into the desert and be lost and alone for a while. I am willing to risk death, even though, and that is what I feel like I am risking. I'm not risking, like getting parched or making, you know, like, I'm like, no, I, I might die. And I'm willing, and every single time I have ever done that, I have found a, a bigger space now. That's not to say it's always a good idea. Like every time I've ever done that, I've found, found a bigger space. Actually, probably that's a lie. I've probably done that a bunch of times and like not found a bigger space, and I've just wiped those outta my memory. Let's just throw those away. Let's not talk about that. Let's just forget, let's forget the girl that you broke up with and then, uh, were you were completely alone and then you were alone and miserable for however long. But you knew it was the right thing to do, and then you found your wife and let's call that a success and let's be done. And

Mondo 21:25

Happily ever after.

Nathan 21:26

that's that. Yep. Happily ever after. We're not gonna talk about all the jobs that I pursued that were horrid, horrible things, or how many bridges that I burned in relationships that were a really stupid thing to do, and we're just not gonna talk about this.

Mondo 21:39

But you know, an optimist like with me would be like, oh, Nathan, you still had to go through all that fire, all the bad relationships, all the shit jobs to get to the spot where you're like, oh, I really do enjoy this. Oh, okay. I, I experienced what it's like to work for when I see that this is not it, there are so many things that could have been worse that I wasn't even aware of, but now I have that awareness, so like my antenna is tuned to what works for me and what doesn't.

Nathan 22:07

I am curious, we've talked about this for a while. You said sort of where you are in like taking this adventure, but before I move on to the next thing, I do want to ask you, like now that we've really defined, now that we've spent a long time defining what an opportunity creator might be, as you look back over your life. Would you go? Yeah. I guess by your definition, I, I would fall into this category.

Mondo 22:30

Oh, for

Nathan 22:31

And do you know other people like that?

Mondo 22:32

for sure. I would say that I was doing this bible study, uh, I do it every Wednesday and we were

Nathan 22:42

I.

Mondo 22:42

I think it was, was it Psalms 1 0 7 maybe? And, in it there was this section that talked about. Like going out to sea and like these merchants experiencing like the power of God out in the sea or whatever, and it's just like ships and all this whatever. I wish I was good to just be like, oh, here's literally the words that was said. Uh, but that's not how my brain works. But anyways, I'm on this call with a bunch of different entrepreneurs and I'm like, the symbolism of this is like entrepreneurship, right? Like just going and exploring that adventure that is vast, right? Like you said, desert, but like biblically, it's like it could be the desert or it could be the sea. And all of us like resonated. When like that came up in the space, we were like, yeah, like we all go and we explore this thing and then things get really hard and it becomes unbearable. And inevitably we either follow our ego and we say, we can do this all by ourselves. And inev inevitably we crash and burn or we ask for help. Like we ask God, like, please save me'cause I'm going to die out here and I'm going to kill everybody with me if I continue on this path. And so to answer your question, I would say that my entire life up to the previous, almost four years now. I was the captain on the ship who would go explore those seas or whatever. Like I left colleges to go to different colleges. I left relationships, I did different businesses. I, I've left everything right to be like, there

Nathan 24:12

Yeah.

Mondo 24:13

something new or better. Every time I did it, I did it from a place of ego, and I wasn't following God's guidance, nor was I asking him to guide me. And so moving forward, I think not, I think I know, I believe that the type of human I am looking for or I am seeking the ones or the one I sees who are willing to risk. Shifting or going on that adventure, but they're doing it from the spirit of Christ, right? They're like, yo, I really do feel compelled that God is guiding me to move from this box seat the front row. I have no idea why. It's not of my own choice because this box seat is comfortable, but I just feel like I have to go do this thing because God built me to do this thing. And so, man, for any of the one ics out there who feel that about themselves, or if you are a second listening to this and you're like, oh, that's my OneIC U. Or I know somebody just like that. Like those are the humans that we're gonna be looking for, for Second seat foundation. Right? Because I feel like there's something about that community, that type of human who is gonna be guided by the Holy Spirit in a way that. I don't know, it's just gonna make the story like that much better because then all the glory goes to God. None of it. There is no way moving forward I can be like, yo, Nathan, I did this, bro. Like, I can't even say that anymore because like I've been humbled so much. I'm just like, oh yeah, that was all God. And so, I don't know if that answered your question fully, but I've been that person and I believe that I evolved into a healthier version. Of that person, and so now all the opportunities come from the glory of God.

Nathan 25:59

I think, I think you just, I, I mean, I think you just defined incredibly well actually. Something I said to someone the other day, I'll, I'll say this and then I'll put this thing down.'cause I just, I just, I'm like, yes, yes. That. I said to someone the other day, I was like, you know how I ask God for help? I pray exactly the same way as the example earlier. So I'll be like, oh God, I'm really struggling. You know, like, I'm blah blah, blah. Um, it would be really awesome if you could help me with some rent money. You know, like whatever. God is like, well, you asked for help and if you had stopped talking, I was thinking I could grant you eternal life. I was thinking I could put you on a different planet. I was thinking that I could invent a new species that you could care for. I was thinking, how about I, how about I actually make up an entire universe that you get to sort of like steward over. That's what I was thinking I was thinking, but now that you've gotten real specific, sure. I You pay your rent.

Mondo 26:56

Oh man, that was such a good analogy because the way you narrated how one God would kind of have his hand on his hip, like, well. I would give you all this stuff, but you want to get into the details and I was willing to bless you with all this extra stuff. And I feel like right, that's where the one second duo is like so necessary. I know we continue to go back to that because that OneIC is like, all right, God, whatever you have for me. want me to do some back flip so I can explore this new universe? Oh. And like you want me to jump off this thing and while I'm jumping, like Nathan is down there building the thing to like catch me in this net.'cause you gave him all the tools for that. Alright, bet. And we're gonna do this thing together. Okay. And so I feel like who listened to this? Like, like, and I don't wanna talk to seconds as if I know you, but like, don't feel any shame that you may not be an opportunity creator. You don't have that. that conviction to go explore all these other seats, like that might not be your jam. That is literally the jam for your partner. And so like, let that partner play that role and go do that thing, but just like have conviction that you have their back. Right. When

Nathan 28:03

Yep.

Mondo 28:03

and doing the wildest, craziest OC decision, right? One, be like, yo, is that bound? Is it grounded in God first? Right? Because again, our egos can get in the way and if, if so, right? Like, like back them and trust that it's all gonna work out in the end. And like, because I'm saying that out loud, like, yo, Nathan, just shout out to you. In general, just as a human, as a second, as a friend or whatever, like I do truly believe that through all of this and all my crazy goofy decisions, you have been like, yeah, mano, I got your back and you still do. And so shout out to you for standing in that spot for me.

Nathan 28:40

I appreciate that. I'm proud of it. Uh, all right, well we'll put that one down here and we'll take the last few minutes.'cause I have, I need to like, I need to flip that around.

Mondo 28:50

question.

Nathan 28:51

Uh. That is the thing I wanted to ask you I wanted to ask you about was actually this difference between, and I think, uh, Minnesota people will be especially interested in this one. I wanna understand how you would define the difference between direct and kind versus nice.

Mondo 29:09

So if I am. How did you say like, here's an executive way to answer, like give the, like the answer up front, like, how I would

Nathan 29:17

Yeah, answer upfront context after.

Mondo 29:20

So direct and kind. No, thank you. Nice. No, thank you. Because I gotta take my kids here like my. Calendar is so backed up. I'm kind of sick and all these other layers as if no thank you not good enough. And, and so like I personally that I am direct and kind. I have no problem saying no and not giving any other context on why. However, some people. Minnesota do take that a certain way. Like, well, why, uh, I just don't want to. Right. Like, like so then,

Nathan 30:01

There must be a reason you can't.

Mondo 30:04

So then

Nathan 30:05

Yeah, I don't feel like it.

Mondo 30:06

if you then ask to follow on, and then I just say respectfully, like, I'm not interested in the thing that you're doing too often that is received as like. Well, Mondo's an asshole or he is a dick kid, or he's like, and so I think that that direct and kind for too many people. Just the shortness of it and the consolidated. Just like, like let's just get to the point and like move to the next thing.'cause there might be something else. Like if you ask me something else, I might be super excited. Like, yeah, yeah, that thing. As opposed to like sitting in and stewing in the reasons why this first thing that you offered me, like I didn't take it. and so. There's definitely something around like being too overly nice and a people pleaser and all those things that I feel like many humans have to get over. Yes, and on the flip side, like that doesn't mean be a grouch, right? Like direct and kind actually does mean be kind. like a relentless, just like every time you speak you just make everybody cringe because like you're just. You're just wicked with your words, right? So don't know if I answered you fully, but just for me it's super simple. Yo direct and kind is just that. It's direct and kind and just honest and transparent. But then when the why comes after that, that's when it gets muddy. And people typically don't like the answer if somebody is just being honest. And kind of to your point earlier about relationships, like I've had this many of times in relationships where would ask me something and I would answer like very basic and clear. And then they want the context. And I actually say like. Are you sure you want me to give you the details about this? Because you're probably not gonna like the words that I say, but like, that's like really a setup, right? Because never does somebody say, I don't want to hear this juicy stuff that you're about to say. Right? And,

Nathan 32:00

Yeah.

Mondo 32:00

then I deliver it, I think, in a direct and kind way. And it turns into like, you're so arrogant. I'm like, what?

Nathan 32:09

Yeah.

Mondo 32:10

So anyways, let me, let me.

Nathan 32:12

Right. You just invited all of these words. I think your answer is the answer that I. How you react to this question is how I am trying to lean into this question. I think that, I think for a lot of, I think I have been very direct and I was harsh, direct, and harsh. And everyone else was being nice, indirect. Everyone else was being nice. So I really like the way that you said that about like direct and kind is saying, no thank you. Done. I was not, I was not kind. I was direct, but I was harsh. And I, I really believe that part of the reason I wanna give myself a little grace, give younger me a little grace, uh, and that is so many people around were being nice. That by the time that I felt like it was my turn to answer, I was so frustrated that I didn't have space for kind anymore.

Mondo 33:06

that's real.

Nathan 33:07

And yeah, like the gap. Going from nice to direct, uh, was like I had to leave kindness behind and just get harsh because I felt like I needed to snap people out of what was going on. I feel like I still do that with the seconds and how to be second and stuff like that sometimes, because I literally say like, our, our figured out muscles are so big, they're like blinding us, right? Because occasionally. I do get a little, um, uh. Dramatic, I guess a little, you know, like I'm kind of trying to shake you, right? Like grab it by the shoulders and be like, Hey, this is a thing you keep doing. Like, um, and so I sort of lose my kindness along the way, but a lot of my life, people would look at me and they would be like, Hey, you need to, you need to chill out. You need to be nicer. And they kept using that word nicer. You need to be nicer. And what I discovered over. Oh my gosh, maybe 12 or 15 years of like trying to sand that really actual rough edge because I was, I was being harsh, but I lost the directness and like clarity went out the window too.

Mondo 34:15

Okay, I got a question.

Nathan 34:16

And so like we, yeah.

Mondo 34:18

So when I hear you talk, it sounds like this is Nathan. In a business environment, do you feel like you were more than not nice and kind to your wife or nice and kind to your kids? Or do you feel like you had to shave off the harshness in those relationships too?

Nathan 34:38

Definitely the shaving off the harshness was a me thing. So yes, always I do think that my. I do think my wife and kids, I na I mean just like having those kinds of relationships naturally, you, you like come to them or at least I did, you know, you are faced with the choice in a stronger way. There's more to lose and so you have to think about it before you lean on some of those other tools, right? Whereas like in some random conversation at work or something like that, you don't necessarily have those stop gaps quite as powerfully. But with my wife and my kids, like definitely the, the alarm bells would go off. I'm not saying I was never harsh. I definitely was. And I definitely have had to sand that down. And the temptation is still there, especially with my kids, right? Because they're kids. They're children. Uh, but. Definitely, I would like to think that I've moved to this idea of direct and kind and I'm going in that direction. I'm not done, but I'm traveling in that direction now and I have definitely started to have to give up Nice. In order to be direct and kind.

Mondo 35:41

I, I like that there was something you said last podcast that really hit I asked you like, Hey, Nathan, like, give. OneIC a tool to like step in and support. And you were like, yo, there were many times when you would go and want to lean on building a relationship with your OneIC and you were like, there were times when you went to that person and let's say it was direct and harsh, like slap hand, like, Hey, here's the answer. Like get on my level, versus, I'm kind and I want us to find common ground so we can work together. Was like a great example to me last episode of like, yo, I've evolved out of that harshness in many different ways. And I feel like that was a perfect example of how you showed up differently. I.

Nathan 36:24

Thank you. I appreciate that. Good job Leaning into your acts of, uh words, your words of affirmation.

Mondo 36:30

today. This is one of those days, you know? Well, clearly I've been having to strengthen that muscle and I'm still probably giving myself about a C minus. But I imagine that you won't also need these words next time we record. These might be good for the next six months, so we're good.

Nathan 36:48

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. This is a, it's a very, it's a very small, vault that I need filled, and it empties very slowly.

Mondo 36:57

Oh, cool man. This was good. Awesome. All right. I think we're gonna honor it here and just shut it down for the day. Peace.

Nathan 37:04

Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. I have a couple ways you can go deeper if you're interested. If you resonated with the way that Nathan talked about himself, I am Nathan you might be what we call a Second. This is an identity, not a role. We have a couple ways to dig into that curiosity. You can take our am I a second assessment on our website at how to be second.com/assessment. It is directional, not definitive. You can grab the book, how to Be Second from our website or Amazon or almost anywhere you like to buy books, including on audio read by the authors, myself and David Hartman. If you resonated with Mondo, I have a couple things for you as well. Second seat.org focuses on sponsoring seconds to be able to sit in the second seat at Youth-Focused Impact organizations to help them scale. Second Seat is always looking to talk to community impact organizations who are interested in getting a second, and for funding groups who want those types of organizations to succeed. If you're a for-profit, how to be Second has a matchmaking, not recruiting service, where we make connections between first and seconds, where there's a relationship, energy, skill, and compensation match. Finally, if you're inspired by what we're doing here, you can support how to be second at How to be second.com/support. Thanks again. I'm looking forward to our next conversation.