One Second by How to be Second

When do you know it's not working?- One Second by How to be Second

• Nathan Young

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Nathan and Mondo discuss the subtle, often unspoken signs that something has already failed long before anyone admits it. Nathan shares how Seconds live in a constant state of catastrophe-avoidance, sensing breakdowns months in advance, even when all the lights are green. While Mondo reflects on how firsts often don’t realize it’s not working until they’re exposed to a whole new level of “what good actually is.” They explore why knowing what “10” looks like can be both a burden and a gift and how radically different wiring helps them find 11 together.

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This is One Second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities where we're exploring how we're different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at How to be Second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is what we call a natural 1iC, or a Visionary. Enjoy.

Nathan:

Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is one second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities, reacting raw to questions from people like you, and exploring how we are different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at how to be second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is a natural OneIC.

Mondo:

Yo Nathan it's so dope When things are going great just think about walking in and you and your boss have a great relationship at work or home and saying hi honey and everything going great at home or with your kids like When things are going good they are going great However there are times when things do not go as planned So when do you know it's not working And I'm asking specifically as a second working with the OneIC When do you know it's not working

Nathan:

So I perceive it not working about three months in advance of that becoming true. Maybe the real question is, do I ever actually think it's working? Um, I see in the domino line, I see an implication I see in whatever. And so at some point there's a scenario playing in my head at any given moment that is a catastrophe. Sort of like everything I do is avoiding a catastrophe. I was giving a talk yesterday talking about like what seconds are, and I'm in front of this room of people, and somebody was like, Hmm. Do you think that's part of the reason that seconds are like always hunting for more detail, like around the plan? And I started to answer and I pulled back for a second and I remembered some of the conversations that we had and I said, I think seconds really want to do well. I think seconds want to. To know that it's working, that things are going well. And I think a lot of the reason that we're pulling details, yes, it's because we're forming a plan so that we can start doing the thing, right. And also because we're trying to avoid failure, like we're very risk averse. And so I think actually a lot of our endless energy comes from the avoidance of failure rather than. For things to go well. And so when do I know it's not working? I always assume we're one step away from it now.

Mondo:

That's interesting Okay lemme ask a follow

Nathan:

Uh,

Mondo:

you ever

Nathan:

yeah.

Mondo:

a reverse role it's not working for you because it's too easy

Nathan:

Yes. Shockingly yes. And. I'll, I'll say one more thing on the window. I know it's not working. The more mature that I've gotten, the more willing I have been to face the idea that it might not, that things might not be going well on a even more regular and consistent basis. That the idea of asking what do we wish were going well is like a common question that deserves to be asked on a regular basis. Not just how can we do better? Not just like the relentless pursuit of better, but to just specifically ask like, is there anything we wish were going, well, not catastrophically. Maybe something just like irksome, there's a thorn in your side. There's a thing that like, it's going fine, but you just wish it could get turned up. You know what I mean? Like, like, I wish I were hitting 11 and um. And normally truth comes out in that moment, it, it often takes a second. And what I've found is that I know it's not working. When I combo that question on a consistent basis with what's going well Because what's going well deserves to be asked just as often as how can we do better? And when I ask those two questions in combination and you can't think of an answer for what's going well, and you just see that pensive look on the face of like the blank stare of like, then you're like, oh, okay. Like. Which is crazy'cause it can be, you can ask that question, get the blank stare about what's going. Well get that sense of like, I just have to grit my teeth and answer the what's going well. Question with anything I can find before we get to the what I wish were going well. And then I can explode. And you, you can see it on a person's face. You can feel it. And you can have shown up that day with a scorecard of perfect numbers. So like that's when I know it's not working is when I ask the questions in combination and they just literally can't. And I am like, well, it's not working.'cause that, you know, that person is distraught or they're focused on the wrong things or they're, you know, all the lights are green, but the system doesn't produce the result that we actually wanted.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

So the system is working perfectly. But it didn't, you know, it didn't make the,

Mondo:

yeah yeah It's just like oh okay The Easy Bake oven dinged but like whatever came out the Easy Bake Oven isn't Right I

Nathan:

yeah.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

Oops. I was supposed to make a cake. This is a biscuit making machine.

Mondo:

Right right right okay That's super dope Okay I'm with you Um

Nathan:

That's, I'll answer your original question unless, unless I've caught something up. Now, do you have something else rising up?

Mondo:

go for it

Nathan:

I remember being at Search Lab. I'm positive no one from my previous lives will ever listen to this podcast, but just in case you do, just know Search Lab person, I really enjoyed my time there until the last couple of months because this is the answer to this question. In the last six months at Search Lab, I proposed to become the CEO. I wrote this big letter and I didn't have the language for Secondness and second in command. I didn't have any of this language, and what I was effectively proposing was a CEO title, but a second in command role. So I pitched, I basically pitched to become the CEO, but the, the letter that I wrote effectively read as a second in command. I still have the letter actually, and. I got told no, I got shut down. And, um, part of the reason I got shut down was that I had actually answered the question a year prior. Like, if everything goes south, if the first in commands sort of like, have a problem, would Nathan step in and become the first in command? And I was like, no, I, I don't have any interest in that. Um, and they were like, okay. So you just don't have what it takes to be the, you know, to be the top person. So I got turned down and they were like, but you are incredible as a leader. You've been this manager person and you are the CFO. And so I sat in the finance chair being our like finance genius person for six months, bored out of my fucking mind knowing that I was done. Like this was it. I was getting paid pretty well at the time. I was doing my job super easily. All star performer, everybody liked me. I knew the entire company.'cause I was like employee number four, right? Like all green lights. I was bored to tears. And they did not know it was not working. I was just fucking done. Like.

Mondo:

Uh

Nathan:

So,

Mondo:

so did you leave knowing that You wanted to still fulfill a second seat or did you leave thinking might have to be the boss Now I'm just thinking about your growth arc as a human because you wrote that letter like I'm never gonna be behind this first in command That is a don't wanna talk about this person But I guess they just

Nathan:

yeah.

Mondo:

at the highest level that they could have potentially Did you

Nathan:

Yeah,

Mondo:

had to sit in the top seat after leaving there Or did you feel in your heart like no I'm still willing and okay and willing to follow somebody else or I was still trying to find like that second in command role

Nathan:

I was really torn. I left to become the first in command. I felt like I needed to step into that. Like my, maybe I had to become that thing and I felt like I had the opportunity open to me and I didn't leave in a pleasant way. Like I started by leaving in a pleasant way. Um, I had a conversation with my first in command. I, you know, it was like all good vibes or whatever, but. Then people started reaching out to me. Customers started reaching out to me and being like, we heard you're leaving. Can we come? And I, I had asked for a, a raise and a non-compete and they didn't give me them. So when customers started reaching out, being like, can we leave and come to your new whatever you're doing, will, are you willing to start an agency and compete directly and can I leave and become your first client? Was effectively the cause conversation I was having. And I was like, bet your ass, you can. Because I was pissed. I had just gotten shut down for being the CEO and I had just gotten a customer call me up and be like, re just like a little reminder. Your boss wasn't willing to pay you for a non-compete, you know? And I was like, well, I guess you're about to discover that. I am very threatening. Like, and they did, you know, I think, I think 30 to 40% of their clients left and came with me for a time.

Mondo:

Yeah Yeah

Nathan:

Some for a very long time. I'm thankful to say so. Yeah, I did feel the pressure to become a first in command and I did, and then it sucked. Because the seat of the CEO is relentless. The jacket fits in a particular way, and my body is shaped in a particular way, and I had enough energy just pure fucking spite energy. You know what I mean? It powered me through the first year, the first dozen clients, the first five team members, whatever, the first few hundred thousand dollars of growth. It powered me through that, like I built a company. Off of pure spike, chip on the shoulder energy, and then it was gone, and then we hit the ceiling and we never, it didn't ever get better.

Mondo:

So did you okay Let me ask this question Because you were in that seat did you know when it was not working in advance Like you said when you were in the second seat

Nathan:

Same answer to the first thing. It was always just like avoiding catastrophe. It always felt like it was one step away from not working

Mondo:

Got it Huh It's interesting cause

Nathan:

in the end. What's that?

Mondo:

No it's just super interesting because again you talk about like that predisposition right Of like avoiding catastrophe And again the first and second have different

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Mondo:

and I'm like Ooh catastrophe me go dance in it Right Like And like while I'm dancing at it I'm like Hey Nathan I think I'm gonna need you to build some contraption to get me out of this catastrophe And you're like Oh okay cool I don't want to go in there but if I can just be on the fringe building this bridge to get you out all for it I feel like that is how this combo works where there is somebody who is willing to dive right into the catastrophe and there's another person who's like I'll get right up to the line then I'll build some systems or some supports or some bridges to then like Make sure I'm not gonna fall in first and then like everybody else then can like cross it too And so like that's that's super dope I I like that analogy actually

Nathan:

Yeah, I, I definitely, search lab was definitely like a catalyst moment for me because I didn't know this at the time, but I actually had a OneIC, a natural OneIC who was there that I got to partner up with. A long time and his name was Scott. So Scott, if you ever hear this, shout out man. Uh, thank you for being that guy. And when the whole thing broke down, Scott was actually already gone and I didn't, I couldn't talk to Scott anymore. Um, the partners like, had a disagreement. I wasn't part of it. The, you know, the, the guy who owned the company ended up kicking Scott out and then had like some legal stuff happen. So like, Scott couldn't talk to any of us. He had a, he had a non-compete, right? Like,

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

and so when the, the whole thing broke down, Scott wasn't around and it was really interesting'cause effectively they had taken away my Batman. I was just like adrift

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

I didn't, I was, I was adrift and I was bored,

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

and Scott was insane, but I mean, every while he was around we kept growing. And then as soon as he was gone, we stopped. I didn't get to start hanging out with Scott until, man, seven or eight months. Something into starting the next thing because his, like, his contract's stolen up and like we could, you know, like I reached out to him and he is like, oh, we can't talk dude. Um, that sucked. Like,

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

so, and we, and we never really got to like reset. And so like by the time my energy was like gone, all of my, you know, piss and vinegar had just, I lost it.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

I didn't get to reconnect with my OneIC there. And so then it was just sort of like, ah, shit that was adrift. And so it's weird. It's weird. I almost didn't know. I was trying to constantly as stay astray from the catastrophe there. I got just enough like I'll do it my damn self that I was willing to like do the thing, which is commonly how seconds end up as first in commands.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

Is they just have this like really strong sense of like, I'll do it my damn self. Um, we're not normally inspired to like do a thing normally. It's like, it's like out of a sense of like duty.

Mondo:

Yeah Yeah because you

Nathan:

Um,

Mondo:

competence the

Nathan:

yeah.

Mondo:

Like I can get this done and if I don't I'm just doing a disservice to I don't know the whatever the outcome is Like can't just

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

from saving the dog if I believe I can save the dog So let me save the dog

Nathan:

i've dug in pretty far on my side on this, and so now I am really curious, like, yes, from my perspective, uh, sort of eternal. Realist. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be optimistic and say realist. Uh, when do you know it's not working?

Mondo:

When you were talking about Hey I know three months in advance that it's not working or can see the dominoes falling in a direction where it's not working and I'm 99 certain that it's not gonna work I thought to myself I relate to that My gut response is no So I was like well mano how do you answer this question And I would say that it's hard for me to know when it's not working It's abundantly clear when I recognize that it's not working at the gear That it could be working And

Nathan:

Hmm.

Mondo:

from me experiencing something or something in the world or a conversation or experience and I'm like Oh so are you saying it should or could be working like this Oh are you saying that these humans that I have in these seats actually need to have like more levels of competence so they can deliver like this And then I'm like oh well then this isn't working right Like because I just have this new awareness of like what working actually is It's just like yo Mondo can we Drive to the store it's like yeah there's a buggy outside you can have somebody push you to the store right Like you're getting to the store in a buggy with uh the horsepower of a little kid right Versus yo I have a V eight engine right Like Corvette getting me to the store And so as a First in command type I can literally like think about these seasons in my life where I'm like oh I'm riding a scooter Uh scooter's not it oh I'm riding a bike no Like now I'm actually on a motorcycle Oh now I'm actually in a car but it is in my blind spot like every leap And then I'm just like oh man I didn't even know this thing could get better And so um you and I both like allude to coalition nine sometimes and I would say like C nine was kind of like jumping from oh I'm in a car to oh this is what Bentley looks like or feels like because I'm surrounded by a bunch of elite Talent in their own seat And I'm just like oh if we all did something together it would definitely be a rocket ship But I didn't even know what I was doing was not working because I couldn't contrast it to the C nine group I'm thinking the talent that I have on my team myself included right Like I'm juggling tr trying to do so many things not even recognizing that bro you're like a C minus in all these different areas and you Think you're an A minus and it's like not even close right And so uh the not working is just a self-awareness of what good is right And I know you can talk about that with so much fidelity like Hey I didn't know what good is until I was exposed to good and gooder and goodest

Nathan:

Yeah. So, okay, so this is in really interesting to me because you just answered that question almost verbatim. And because I'm a librarian, as we've discussed, I know where this clip is. It would take me a minute to find it, but I know where it is. We did a fireside chat with. Alec Broadfoot, who is the first in command at this, um, recruiting firm called Vision Spark. And I'm a huge fan of their work and they were willing to do a fireside chat with us. We were talking about all this stuff, and he said exactly the same thing. He even used those rankings. He was like, I thought that I was doing these six jobs at like an A minus. Like I thought I wasn't quite, and he's like, I didn't even know. I didn't have in my head how bad I was because I didn't know how good it could be. He said the same thing. He's like, I'm an eternal optimist. So I just always thought that I was doing like pretty good, but not what it could be potentially. Right. But I know I'm good at stuff and I know I'm willing, and I'm know I'm, you know, like I'm throwing myself at it and like, who else can really be that much better than me? We have a term for this how to be second. We call it knowing what 10 is like on a scale of 10. Part of the reason Seconds have such deep imposter syndrome is that we know what 10 is. I talk about this in the book. I'm like, look, if a second is gonna go play basketball, the first thing we do, like we, we go play basketball for a little while. Sure. But like the, one of the first things that we're gonna end up doing is because we have this deep sense of like needing to know what good is possibly to avoid failure, we. Often go figure out what best looks like. And so by the time we are in whatever they call junior basketball,

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

sorry, I didn't do sports in school. Uh, we know who Jordan is, we know who Kobe is. We know who, like, we know what 10 is, is the first thing we go figure out,

Mondo:

yeah yeah

Nathan:

and then we hold ourselves to that standard. All of the rest of the time.

Mondo:

Man this is so cool because the necessity you knowing what 10 is in that seat and holding yourself to that standard is the superpower that helps you like reach for the next thing And like all these like small things that know you're like I gotta master this I can sharpen that edge Like that being your superpower is so necessary in contrast The naivete or the ignorance that I have that allows me to walk into rooms and talk with so much confidence is is so one it sounds like ridiculous but like I could literally like if I went back in time and I watched myself like pitch or do a keynote or like like very like with so much vigor and passion about I know this way is right like myself just sitting in the room like buddy just wait till next week Like I I just I've played that over and over and over and over but then right like it's as if on a different in a different realm Like like the spiritual body is like You keep breaking through the glass ceiling you continue to go be courageous and bold and go into these environments and so like how you're breaking through isn't materializing in the earthly realm but like if you keep doing this thing and you keep finding yourself In positions where maybe you humble yourself but you still are like I'm getting closer to recognizing that I don't know what I don't know And now I still have to go be brave I still have to go be courageous as if like God gifts the one I see with like this unique gift right This unique thing I don't even know what it is It's just like because you put in so much work being brave through your ignorance uh You are going to eventually end up being perceived as the fool and you are going to likely be shunned for being the fool or laughed at for being the fool then if you if you walk through that fool season Holding your head up high still having compassion still like showing up for others and still continuing to be the good good guy or good gal in the story You're like blessed on the other side of like being a fool because you're just like oh yeah like I had to go through that I had to build this This castle of I know it all and I'm right I'm right I'm right Or whatever And then like you had to break it all down like with a foolish hammer And yeah I I feel like I'm kind of rambling but I'm just really reflecting and looking at myself and seeing how many times that cycle has played over and over and over because I feel like eventually I have found myself in a seat That is considered wise wise because I've accomplished the foolish adventure

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

so then when I'm see another version of me I don't take it personal cause I'm just like oh like you're doing the fools Aaron Arc too Right And like I just have so much compassion cause I just know how the story unfolds

Nathan:

This is so funny to me because what you basically, you said it, but I did think it was hilarious that you basically said, my superpower is being so risk averse that I know what 10 is. So every time I walk into a room, I have this deep sense of. Uh, imposter syndrome.'cause I'm a six outta 10. Right. I've put in the work, I'm pretty good, but I'm not LeBron. But like, I'm pretty good, you know, like I've studied LeBron. I've put in, you know, like I've put in my time. I've done a lot of drills in practice in private where nobody can see me screw up all the time. You know, like, so like, I'm not bad, you know, I'm like a six outta 10. I'm in a sea of threes who don't even know what 10 is. They don't even fucking know. And the hilarious thing is your superpower is never having any idea what 10 is like. Like naive. You said naive, right. And like when you look at that from a purely competence standpoint, you suck. You kind of suck. You're like not very good. But when you look at that from a. Well then what's our superpower? Because I walk in, I love we, we talk about Lego all the time. I love Lego. I've watched every Lego master season. I've put together dozens of Lego Master built Lego kits. I've put, you know, I've looked at the fan stuff that people have built. I've built stuff on my own. And you know what I know, so I know what 10 is. I know what it is. I've seen Lego Masters build their craft. I know what it looks like to present something that wins a competition, that wins you a salary as a Lego master builder in Denmark. So I always show up to the Lego table being like, well, like that's the standard, and you are like, let's build a fucking dinosaur. Like, so then I build what I think is shitty, a shitty dinosaur, and you're like, holy crap. You built a whole ass dinosaur from like literal, nothing. Like it's incredible. And then you go and you see the next thing and realize that the dinosaur I built is fine. And you're like, wait, but we could build this other thing. Hey, laser beams and other shit, you know, like. This dinosaur could go to the moon and, and then, and I'm like, well, yeah, it always could. I, I didn't know that's what you wanted. And, and the reality is you didn't know that's what you wanted. You never, that's, you just discovered it. I've known it the whole time. I never really have been able to get there.'cause I was only, only six outta 10 Hilariously. If two people can stay on that journey long enough, you're relentlessly, like you said, going to become wise through your unrelenting willingness to adventure.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

You've been doing that the whole time, that's your superpower is to never be like, it's not working because I'm not a master. It's not working because I'm not satisfied.

Mondo:

Yeah I know you

Nathan:

Right?

Mondo:

don't want to I

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

a new term but it's a

Nathan:

Hmm.

Mondo:

term that you talk about a lot which is convincing energy I have an unlimited gas tank of convincing energy for myself I've

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

myself that my convincing energy of me is like unlimited and I can just keep

Nathan:

Yep.

Mondo:

this dinosaur is a Rex mixed with ao mixed with the whatever right Like we're getting we're gonna

Nathan:

And it's gonna be awesome.

Mondo:

it's right

Nathan:

Uh, that's very funny. It's this whole conversation is funnier.'cause over my. Like right here over Thanksgiving weekend. Um, that's what I did. I put together this incredible bow, rug and uh, uh, Gandalf like Lego set, you know, it's like. 2,500 pieces. It's got flames and it's got the, you know, whatever. And I'm just like, oh, that thing was awesome. And the experience of it was awesome. And like feeling the, the sort of the mastery of not just the, the building it and thinking about the person who designed it. The actual set, but that who designed the experience that I got to go on recreating the set, if that makes sense. Like there's two levels there. You have to make something awesome, but then you have to make something that feels awesome to make again. That's crazy.

Mondo:

Yeah

Nathan:

the depth of what it is to be a master. And I loved that experience. And so while we're having this conversation, I'm like staring at that thing. Thinking about the feeling that I had. How I was like so in awe of that, that it almost set me on a path of like never chasing it because I know and because I feel like it's so far away that I'm like, well, I won't. I already know right now that me trying to be, that thing is not working.

Mondo:

Hmm

Nathan:

It would be easier to not know. I've really done myself a disservice.

Mondo:

and now you're

Nathan:

just a funny, now I'm staring at it every day in awe of someone else who will be a 10, who is a 10 that I will never be, and I. And, and always I will be somewhat dissatisfied being at the Lego table. Right. I'll show up thinking it's not quite working and just thinking about like on some level that is my superpower because I can bring the expertise to the table right away. And like I said, you show up and you're like, let's build shit with Lego. And then I build a dinosaur.'cause I saw the thing that got built over the weekend by a master. And then I was like, sure, I can replicate some shitty version of that. And you're like, holy crap, that's incredible. And I'm like, uh, but, but you have, you maintain the superpower the entire time of convincing yourself at every next stage to never assume there is not a next stage.

Mondo:

To me eventually there's an 11

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

Like

Nathan:

Yeah.

Mondo:

here's the master here's 10 And I'm like

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Mondo:

cool But eventually there's

Nathan:

Right,

Mondo:

I I

Nathan:

right.

Mondo:

what it is how we get there but let's keep doing this thing until an 11 becomes the standard I

Nathan:

Uh, that we always talk about this, we always land here, which is right. That's how we, it should land on some level. That's the deal. Is that I might become a 10, eventually, probably I won't become a 10 at what I'm good at without you because I'll stay locked at a six. Risk averse to get better. You will want something beyond what I'm capable of.'cause you'll see it. I will have to grow. At some point I'll be like, I'm maxed out. I am Lego master. And then you'll be like, but 11. Do it again. And I'll be like, impossible. I'm a Lego master. I'm at 10. And you'll be like, but we could add laser beams, like just that. And then, and you know what? And then we will find 11.

Mondo:

Yeah and then we will find 11 So like

Nathan:

It's so annoying.

Mondo:

it man but that that exploration and I'm gonna tie this into last episode because I felt like the way that you teed up like what to ask God for right Is it like only the things that you can see or are you gonna ask God for 11 right Like You were like yo God can you just gimme the money to pay my rent And you talked about like oh God was going to give you 11 but you only asked for six And so like he just gave you the thing that you asked for and I feel like the glory of going on this journey together man and discovering 11 and then 12 and then whatever else is next is is

Nathan:

I have no idea what Samantha is gonna do with this conversation because it's the full time, but also I can't imagine it being less. And I'm gonna put it down right here. Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. I have a couple ways you can go deeper if you're interested. If you resonated with the way that Nathan talked about himself, I am Nathan you might be what we call a Second. This is an identity, not a role. We have a couple ways to dig into that curiosity. You can take our am I a second assessment on our website at how to be second.com/assessment. It is directional, not definitive. You can grab the book, how to Be Second from our website or Amazon or almost anywhere you like to buy books, including on audio read by the authors, myself and David Hartman. If you resonated with Mondo, I have a couple things for you as well. Second seat.org focuses on sponsoring seconds to be able to sit in the second seat at Youth-Focused Impact organizations to help them scale. Second Seat is always looking to talk to community impact organizations who are interested in getting a second, and for funding groups who want those types of organizations to succeed. If you're a for-profit, how to be Second has a matchmaking, not recruiting service, where we make connections between first and seconds, where there's a relationship, energy, skill, and compensation match. Finally, if you're inspired by what we're doing here, you can support how to be second at How to be second.com/support. Thanks again. I'm looking forward to our next conversation.