How do you handle not getting paid? What drains your energy?- One Second by How to be Second

Nathan and Mondo wrestle with money, equity, and the invisible contracts that form between Firsts and Seconds. They unpack the ideas of safety, risk tolerance, and why time horizons matter more than titles. The conversation widens into what truly drains energy from them: emotional labor, lost clarity, and seasons without purpose. Along the way, they explore hope, despair, and how Firsts and Seconds learn to dance together when the pressure is real.

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This is One Second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities where we're exploring how we're different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at How to be Second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is what we call a natural 1iC, or a Visionary. Enjoy. 

Transcript

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Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is one second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities, reacting raw to questions from people like you, and exploring how we are different while embracing that we're better together in our vernacular at how to be second. I am a second, and my co-host, Armando Davison, is a natural OneIC. One of the things that I feel like I have had to do so much, especially as an early entrepreneur with very limited resources or no money at all, I used to have to like convince others to opt in, hop on board to build this thing. It's gonna change the world. And so, uh, that creates a lot of like tension, right? Like, you want me to come on and you're gonna pay me nothing for how long? And so I'm just curious. As a second in command, how have you wrestled with being paid or not paid for work? Yeah, I have a bunch of gut reactions to this one. This one is weird too'cause I've had to navigate it in both directions. So. As a second in command, in particular, my experiences as a second in command not getting paid is like a non, that's, that's just a no, it's just a hard no. Um, the funny thing about like being a second in particular like this identity is that I'm, I actually don't often need paid to be galvanized to like do a thing to carry out something and. Uh, but when I had to work in a professional capacity, like I have a limit to my time and energy and whatever, so usually if somebody's asking me to do something professionally, there's, there's like a pretty substantial amount of dedication that I have to do to that thing. And so I just have to get paid. Like, there's literally just like a trade off of, okay, well I'm gonna dedicate myself to that thing. But there's also, I think for me, I feel like I've had this conversation with a lot of other seconds. There's a certain amount of like. Social contract that you may not know that's being signed in that conversation, which is also why I think this is a very hot topic. Most seconds the people who are this identity have no interest in equity and the sort of the, the social contract we may not realize that we're signing is I will make real your idea and you will take care of me. Yeah. So like. Um, which invariably means the first way you will take care of me is you will pay me for my time. Expertise, right? Or just to do that thing. I'm gonna try to get done the thing that you have in your mind, and I'm inspired enough to go do that thing, but like, I must be taken care of. I am risk averse as a natural way that I move in the world. So like you, you have to take care of my bills while I go do this thing for you. It also means that often people have pitched me equity over the course of my life as a second in command. They're like, okay, well we can get you this much, um, but you can have a certain percentage, blah, blah, blah. And I always take. I always take umbrage in two ways to that. The first one is sort of like, you wanna give me 5% of the a hundred percent of the thing that I'm building for you? Like, fuck off. And like, I'm like, no, just pay me. Right. Like, um, just pay me because like, no, I'm not interested in that. I don't, I'll never believe that. What you believe about the 5% Yeah. You believe it's gonna be huge And I never believe that. And that's why we make a good team. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, it means that we're just not, we just don't value the same things. And so. There's a certain element to that, but then a huge element of like, I need safety and security, and so I don't want the equity, not just because I feel like you're devaluing my contribution.'cause there's an element of, and you want me to build a hundred percent, but only get 5% of what I'm building. That's ridiculous. There's also a pretty substantial amount of. If I don't feel safe while I'm doing that thing, then I'm not gonna be any good at doing that thing. So there's my, I mean, there's like my gut reaction. So now I, I think I have more to say on it, but I would hand it to you and go, what is your question? Initial gut reaction to that. So like you saying that back to me, I'm curious, is there, I don't know, I'll make the question a little bit more, a dynamic, let's say three people. We're going join this team to start something and one person had enough money to just, to just make it simple. Just like, yo, I got dollars. And they're just like, Nathan, uh, I want to pay you. And they're like, you're like, all right, uh, I'll take a hundred grand. This other person also has to be paid, but they're like, Nope, just make me a 50% partner. You take the a hundred grand and I'll work for free. Do you feel a certain kind of way. Because you took the money and now you're just with these 2 50 50 partners. Or would you want kind of like, like gimme a piece of the equity and give me some of the bread too if we're gonna all opt in at the same time in this way? Or would you just take the a hundred grand and just work as an employee essentially? Does that question make sense? Yeah, it, I mean, I've had to face this, uh, I have lived experience with, yeah, with this exact question. Um. Historically, my answer has been, pay me the money. If you guys are willing to take on that risk, that's wonderful. I'm not. Mm. And once again, oh, you wanna split the whole thing I'm building with you. With me having some percentage but not pay me. So like everyone getting paid is riding on me. Building the thing, but I only get some percentage of it is, has always irked me. Got it. And maybe that's my personality layer on top of my secondness. Um, but that has always eaten at me on some level. Like it's not commensurate, it doesn't feel valuable to me. But the other thing I would say is the thing that is outweighed in that. Is, where am I safety wise? So like at this point in my life, I would be much more open to the idea of accepting equity in return for effort than I was 10 years ago, because I'm just at a different. I'm not, I'm not at a place in my life where I don't need money. Yeah. That's not true. Yeah. But I am at a place in my life where I have more tolerance for risk because I've built up more safety for myself by being responsible with what I had and, and also I just have a certain amount of like historic experience with well. You know, you paid me and then the two partners went 50 50 and I got paid and they didn't. And, and so, um, and in most cases I like to think that had nothing to do with me. Like, we successfully, I hit every metric. It, their idea sucked. Like, um, the, uh. The thing got built and their theory was wrong. Yeah. Um, and so like I've built apps before, you know, like when building apps was cool 15 years ago and. It's still relevant, but, uh, the idea of like building a phone app, you know, I built a phone app and I remember the very first phone app that I ever built was one around like helping you find a pair of jeans that fit. And we really took that idea, like all the way to, you know, like we won the ability to pitch at the innovation showcase in Indianapolis and all this other stuff. We got a booth. I did all this stuff. I shot a commercial, like, you know, um, I measured a thousand pairs of jeans by hand. Right? Did I take equity in that? Fuck no. Did I? Like, did I think it was a great idea? Absolutely. Did it go anywhere? No. And whose decision was that? Not mine. Uh, and I was completely okay with that. And so the, the, to the answer to the original question, like, would I be willing to work as an employee is a hundred percent, I went, I am a thousand percent. I'm probably more happy in that role because I, I'm very clear on where authority and decision making lies. Mm. Uh, I'm still in the position that makes me comfortable, which is I will execute a thing. You have an idea. You have some idea that you want to be brought into life. I probably still get relied on completely. Even though you are, the two of you are now making decisions authority wise, it's still, I'm, I'm the one doing the shit. Yeah. So like, yeah. Yeah. I'm completely fine with that. Okay. Okay. I'm with it. I have definitely been the person on the other side, right. Trying to convince everybody around me to work for free. Yeah. Like that was, that's the whole story of starting off being a black entrepreneur and saying like, Hey, our access to capital isn't the same. And so the narrative is always like, we have to start further behind the starting line and recruit a certain number of people to opt into something and the, the arc might be longer to actually get money in the door, whether you believe it or not. Like that was the narrative. Thousand 10. It was part of my responsibility to tell a compelling story to say like, I have nothing, but like, please lean in. I would definitely say that kind of to the app era, right? The person that I was trying to get on board is always gonna be a software developer, right? Like, I'm not reaching for a second. So that is the second person, but their skillset is different than a second in command. Um, but to your point, uh. I, many of ideas fell off a cliff fast, right? Like so, uh, what you're saying is absolutely spot on, right? Yes. And like I still wouldn't have done it any differently and. It's also highly probable that the other people on the squad, uh, may have liked to be compensated in the way that you're talking about, but something about being in that first in command role, uh, we have to see beyond what's plausible and be like, yo, this. Grandiose thing. This vision we have, we gotta be able to tell a story to make others think that it's gonna come true. Uh, most times it doesn't. Sometimes it does. I think I can lean into that a little. So like that's all speaking as a second and second in command. Now let me affirm everything you're saying. As having been a first in command and even leading how to be second, right? And so it's weird having lived in these dual roles and also recognizing the pressures of that jacket on my body and being like, oh, but, but I carry my, the same body with me the whole time. Like I started my own digital marketing agency, so I was the first in command of that. And I, I very quickly, um, I was like, okay, well revenue is the very first thing. It's the only important thing. And so. Uh, I didn't make any attempt at going to get any, like support that I couldn't pay for. And in some ways I actually think that held me back.'cause I think there probably were people who would've jumped in with the idea of like, there could be equity in this, there could be whatever. And they would've been very interested in that. Especially salespeople, and I didn't go after those people because I was stuck behind what I believed about the world. Right? Yeah. The way that I moved in my body would be true about other people I didn't understand, sort of the one I see second distinction, the the ident, you know, carrying this part of the body. I was just like. Well, that's, that's the way the world is and I see it this way. And it's like, well, no, there actually are multiple kinds of people and some people really will do it for equity. And like, that's very inspiring. And there probably would've been a certain amount of people who just liked my grit and determination and were willing to gimme a leg up. But I wasn't, I wasn't capable of seeing beyond my mindset at the time and my sort of lip pressures on me, um, to go and try to try to get those people. And now as the first in command of how to be second. I have a bunch of staff who have effectively worked for free. Now, I was extremely open and honest and upfront I was like, Hey, I need help with this thing. There's no pay. Like here is our, I was very transparent about the road to pay. What that would look like if we could make something make sense for how to be second to be sustainable, uh, through the community. But I was like, ah, we might not figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I, this might, the community might be like, thanks, but no thanks. We're not interested in supporting this. Um, hilariously, for people listening to this, a huge chunk of the community has not. Been interested in supporting the work that we're doing. They've been willing to cry and say like, yes, this thing is impactful and has made meaningful change in my life, but they have not been willing to give us$5, which is just like, I think, speaks to the identity again, of being so, like, risk averse and blah, blah, blah. Um, self-preservation sort of kicks in over and above a lot of things, but. Thankfully enough people have said yes so far that we at least are okay. And my willingness, again, to invest'cause I'm at a different place in the um, life. But like as a first in command, I have learned to put on the jacket of the way that I think your body is able to more move more naturally. And like that is very deeply uncomfortable for me. But I do understand now in a way that I used to make fun of it or be frustrated by the way that you would approach like, okay, can we do it? Can I give up equity? Can I, whatever. I now understand the pressure and the necessity of that, and so like I sort of don't get nearly as frustrated by it anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I understand the needs. To lift a rocket off of the planet. Yeah. Do you feel like, is there a different, is there a different weight? I know the jacket is uncomfortable, but would you say there's a different weight being in the first in command seat of how to be second? And not being able to pay everybody equitably in the way that you would like. Do you feel like you are called to move faster or, I don't know, is there just like any uncomfortable feeling that is different than when you sat in that other seat? Oh, absolutely. I think the, I mean, I say this all the time. The jacket fits the way the jacket fits, uh. It doesn't care what body it's on. Yeah. So like yours might fit it better, but the shape of the jacket itself demands AER of whatever it demands of your body no matter what. And so like, yes, as the first in command feeling, the pressures of the jacket, I can tell like, oh, it's real tight right here. You know, like, yeah. Like, oh, are you thinking about revenue? Every single day. Are you thinking about what it means to pay people equitably to the best of your ability every single day? Are you thinking about how to navigate, how open you are about finances? Like are you thinking about what is a customer and what is actually good for your community? Every day, every decision. Are you chasing that thing, trying to go faster, trying to bring more people? Getting frustrated with anyone who's not right, like uh, yes, every day. Do I want that? Not necessarily, but does the jacket give a shit about what I want? It does not. Okay. So then let me ask like, is there a nuanced way you can describe kind of the difference between if you were the second in command and how to be second versus first in command? Because the, those things that you just said, I still feel like you would be thinking about how to grow this business, revenue, how to do all those things. So like what? Like where's this, like this chasm, there's something there mm-hmm. That like feels different or seems different, the weight is different or whatever. And I don't know if you have the words for it, but it seems like because you've had experiences in both rows, maybe you can speak to it better than anybody else. Maybe. Let me try this and let me kick it back to you. Here's what I'm gonna try as a second. I think that without the jacket of the first in command, my time horizon is different. Mm. So as a first in command, I think my time horizon is, I think in hours and days, right? Like it's very much like constrained to this is a problem that I feel. I feel the pressing of this jacket, the shape of it, like at every moment of every day. And so I'm seeing, I have to see the picture'cause I have to have something to believe in. And I also have to. Live in the pain of it every single day as a second, especially one who is getting paid. It is part of my job to not have that day-to-day pressure. So yes, I'm thinking about revenue, I'm thinking about those things, but a lot of the machinations that I will invent, which are good, but they're, they usually take longer. Yeah. And like. Um, those are two different pressures that I have felt, I have felt a certain amount of, like, I've even been talking to other seconds and been like, how would you go about this? And they'll lay out a plan and I'm like, I have 95% confidence in your plan. The problem is we won't leave orbit by the time the rocket explodes, like. So I need to like, I need to shrink your time horizon. Like you, you just asked me for six months to get that done. I need you to get that done in two weeks. Wow. This is so, this is so fascinating, right? Because as a first in command, who has been seeking a second in command for a decade prior to meeting you, once I met you and we started working together. Once you said, Mondo, this is gonna take nine months, and I'm like, oh, I thought it was gonna take eight weeks. Like, yeah, I just had to find a way to reach in the sky and pull something out of the ether to get us to nine months where you're like your natural secondness. Circled back and said, that's a great plan, 95%, but I'm gonna need you to shrink that. And so just like, it's just really funny, but also kind of highlights, kind of just the natural inclination of kind of that first and second. By identity where you're like, oh, okay. Like, yeah, I hear what you just said with that plan, but the way that I'm set up, uh, that's not plausible, right? And so there is something about the ignorance I always use, right? Or hope. First in commands that somehow, some way every day they feel like I'm gonna have just enough to get to another day and the next day enough to get to another day. And hopefully we'll get to nine months. And whatever Nathan said will be true. Uh, I gave him a hundred grand to make sure that it was true. So it better be true. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Well, and uh, one other thing I wanna throw out there. Is we've been using this, um, we've been using this like metaphor of dance a lot, right? I think something that I have learned wearing the first in command jacket more is to go, I totally believe you and I need to, I need to interject. Myself in here also, right? Like we need to dance a dance. That's not just me following you, it's a dance that we dance together. And so like, yes, I might be the plan maker and you might be, uh. Like the person who can hear the music better than I can. And so you can move naturally. I move a little more stilted unless I know exactly what I'm doing. So you might be passing off that time to me of being like, what's the plan? And I'm like, nine months. That's how long I need. And then you might have to then be like, you just said this very, very like, sounds like a beautiful choreographed series of moves. I'm sure we would win Dancing with the Stars. Listen, I need to bring me back in here a little bit and let you know what is, what I'm capable of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, can this be a dance instead of just like handing one thing back and forth to each other? Um. And so that idea of like, you stepped back in and went, I absolutely believe in you. Let me give you a time horizon constraint. Now make a new plan. I would be like, oh shit. Okay. A new plan. Okay. Yeah. I'll make a new plan. Yeah. Uh, so I actually think it would be, I think it's very good. To have the both. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So don't, I mean, I don't, yeah, yeah. I was gonna say something and then I was like, I've already said it. It's fine. I've already got it. Okay. Alright. That, that reminds me of the old episode where you're like, yeah, sometimes I have to say things a couple times to make sure that I said it out loud the right way, and you're like, ah, no, I think I got it. All right. Good. Awesome. Uh, okay. Is there anything else there before I just walk away from this one? No, I think, I think we're good on that. Okay, cool. I'm gonna put that one down right there, and I'm gonna ask this question as you are moving in the world, I wanna make that broad. What are the things. You notice drain your energy. I will be like very practical and just say something that just naturally hit my spirit when you ask the question, and then I'm gonna layer on something else that we may be able to take a little further. So. One thing that drains my energy is when I am around someone else whose peace is disrupted by something that seems so frivolous or insignificant to me. Hmm. Like, are you literally about to like fight and go ham, or the world is gonna end because somebody. Accidentally splash something on your new shoe laces. Right. Just something that just so menial and it's like, is this really a thing? Like, like are we actually spending time together or in a group or about to attend this birthday party and you are going to derail the joy? We are probably going to experience. Because of this thing that can be replaced with 47 cents. And it's not necessarily about a monetary thing, but it's just something where adults I know have the capacity to endure a jab and be like, you know what? I'm not gonna let that jab disrupt the rest of the day. I'm just gonna eat it. But instead of accepting that challenge of eating the jab, it then creates this. Whirlwind of some other tornado that just isn't even necessary. And so it drains my energy.'cause typically I am the peaceful person. I am the person who helps others regulate. And so when I think that I'm about to go enjoy myself and I have to regulate somebody else's emotions of something so insignificant, it, it completely drains me.'cause I'm like. I, I had that stored up for something more important. Uh, I don't know why I had to pull that out right now. Um. The layer on top of that though, that I feel like, like God had molded me and like helped me like strengthen a certain muscle was, uh, as a OneIC, which we just talked about, like having this vision and like this nine month arc, and I'm just like, oh, okay, well I just have to like, magically, miraculously come up with something, talk to enough people, find a hundred dollars a day to like get to that nine month art. Like, like having that clarity. I. I can wield that to life. I have enough confidence and courage and just energy to get us to that finish line. But the one thing that I felt like God did over the last four years was remove clarity on any checkpoint in the future. Hmm. And so I don't wanna say it drained my energy. But it, like, it didn't even allow me to pour anything into the cup because I had no clarity on where we were going. So I can't even, like, I don't know, manufacture or mature like this energy or confidence or courage to go do a thing.'cause there was no destination to actually go to. And it was, it reminded me of like, like the old back in the day, Superman, uh, I forget his name, who was the Superman, who ended up in the wheelchair. Uh, like in real life, uh, right. Christopher Reeves. Yeah. So like in Christopher Reeves, Superman, like Superman, number two, I believe, like his powers were actually taken away. Like he just had to be like Clark Kent, independently. And so when God took away this. Distant goal. I like felt like Clark Kent.'cause I was just like my superpower was my will to endure or carry whatever mountain to that finish line that nobody else could get to. But because there wasn't one, I felt like my super madness was stripped and uh, it was. It was the most fascinating like retraining of my life because I had to like learn how to navigate something else. And the word that God smacked me with less than 10 days ago was despair. Hmm. It was just like, it was like being in this chasm or this canyon or this black hole with nowhere to go, well anywhere to go, but like no direction, no understanding on if I'm going in the right direction. And it was just like enduring. This despair, but like making sure that I still had hope, even though there was nothing around me to have hope for. It was just like manufacturing it or just like being like, all right, God, there's just you like Jesus, I know you're somewhere like there's nothing as pure darkness. You're there. You're the hope. Like he just forced me to only focus and prioritize him'cause there was no other destination for me to reach towards. And so anyways, I just built a different type of relationship with hope and despair because of that lived experience. And so I'll leave it there and see if you wanna speak to it a little bit, but like that's what hit me when, when I got hit with Drains energy. I mean, I would say that. Yeah, I had a bunch of like, uh, more, you know, like, oh, introvert, extrovert. Like there are certain things in my calendar that I think about that was sort of like, fill me up or, you know, take away or blah, blah, blah. That's probably gonna touch on the difference between rest and comfort. Just like all those things were sort of settling in. Yeah. As, as I was thinking about what. What strikes me in this moment, and then you're like, how about your sense of life purpose? I was like, wow, that was, that got deep. Okay. Uh, here, there is one thing though, over the course of that, that I caught. It is a distinction that I wasn't prepared for in any of my stuff. Right. So I was mentioning about these ideas of like introversion, extroversion, and what pours in, what takes out what, but you said something that adds a new dimension, which is you said like, I had no cup to fill. Mm, yeah. So it wasn't a question of like, let me look at my 40 hours that I'm gonna throw at professional stuff this week. Um. Uh, and let me survey that and go these 10 hours, I feel a lot of like angst around that thing. And so I don't enjoy doing this as much. Kind of like what you said at first, like, when I have to carry this person through a circumstance, it just feels so trivial. Like I have a very limited amount of energy for that. And so that's where my brain went. But then you were like, right, but what if you didn't have, what if you didn't have anything? To pour into at all? Yeah. Like how do you survive and. Attach the con, like you weren't dead. Yeah. It, and so like, yeah. It, it was such a, a deep, like, I don't know, like, I wish I had the word to explain. I, I know it's in there somewhere. It's not like disposition it, but it's, I remember just as a like character archetype. Like, I always like poured into other people'cause I was optimistic, right? Mm-hmm. Like I'm always bringing optimism to the room and there's a lot of times like I would talk to humans just about like purpose. Like, oh, well what do you wanna do? Like you don't like what you're doing? Like what do you wanna do? And when they would, for a long years. Like not have anything like, I don't know, I just don't even feel like I'm called to do anything, or I don't feel like I have a purpose outside of this mundane thing. I could never understand how somebody couldn't even almost identify what that thing could be. Right. It was like right. I was completely oblivious to how somebody could experience life in that way. And so when God was like, well, you're curious, huh? Like, oh, you don't get that, huh? Well, let me show you what that look sounds and feels like. And it created a level of like empathy in me to recognize how, how deeply rooted and visceral it is if a, a human doesn't feel like they're serving a purpose. Mm. How much life is different if you ignite that thing, like it isn't even about success. It's about I lived a life with my heart not lit up and you just lit it up. And it might just be like I just throw paint at the wall, but I get lit up when I throw paint at the wall. Life just just starts to look brighter, feel richer, and so. It just really helped me become more aware of how important it is in any type of way to help someone else like light up so they feel like I'm here for a bigger reason or a bigger purpose than what I have been led to believe up to this point. Yes. I wanna, I wanna layer on top of this so. I feel like what you're saying is incredibly impactful. Shame on me if I don't reconnect it to one thing that I talk about constantly. You got it. And that is this myth that is at the core of what we break apart, right? Is that we say there is identity and there is role. And so often people have tied. Everything they have and who they are to the thing that they are doing. Like what you're saying, like they're all of who they are is what they're lit up by is showing up to do the job. I, you know, they say they use phrases like I am their title. Yeah. Right. I am an integrator, I am a project manager. I am a whatever. And even CEO. Even like I am A CEO and like they're not, they don't actually care about that thing. What they're trying to say is, I have found purpose in the stuff that I do. And so then at some point somebody comes along and reminds them sometimes kindly. A lot of the time forcefully, uh, that that jacket comes off and they're like, oh, yeah, what? Right. They're like, Hey, by the way, we let you borrow that jacket for the last 15 years and we're taking it back now. And then you're like, what? You know, like, yeah. That sense of like, like it being, it's. It's like it's a part of you and they're ripping your skin off. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, who even am I, what is my purpose? What is, I don't, I don't even understand myself anymore. Facts. Like, let alone what gives me energy in my day. I don't even know who I am or why I am anymore.'cause somebody took it from me. And it's this thing that we talk about endlessly at how to be second Right. Of being like, you never were that thing in the first place. Like somebody can't rip a jacket. Like skin off your body unless you have a body in the first place to have stuck a jacket on. And so, um, it all comes back to this thing, like you went through this experience, you were curious what it was like. So like I said, shame on me for not making this tie, but it's just this thing. We talk about how to be second. Constantly. You aren't your role, you aren't your work. You have a body. There is purpose to be found. Outside of that, of course, both you and I agree. Yeah, that like God is the anchor of everything that is, and so like I have a purpose. It doesn't matter what I do. I don't need, I don't need to be at any particular thing which feeds my secondness really easily. Like, I'm infinitely excitable by a big idea and God has an infinite set of things that he can get me excited about. So like, I'm like, I'm always excited about like, um, but that you and I have found that shared, like you can't ever take my purpose away now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Facts. But I can switch jackets by the day. No problem anymore. Right. I don't want to, but if necessary, I can find joy in all these different areas and yeah, it's such a right, like I feel so blessed and grateful that. I have been given the lived experience that I get to experience life this way, and yeah, I don't take it for granted. Yep. Okay. Well that was deep and I'm gonna set it down. I'm just gonna honor this and I'm gonna put down right there. Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. I have a couple ways you can go deeper if you're interested. If you resonated with the way that Nathan talked about himself, I am Nathan, you might view what we call a second. This is an identity, not a role. We have a couple ways to dig into that curiosity. You can take our am I a second assessment on our website at how to be second.com/assessment. It is directional, not definitive. You can grab the book, how to Be Second from our website or Amazon or almost anywhere you like to buy books, including on audio read by the authors, myself and David Hartman. If you resonated with Mondo, I have a couple things for you as well. Second seat.org focuses on sponsoring seconds to be able to sit in the second seat at Youth Focused Impact organizations to help them scale. Second C is always looking to talk to community impact organizations who are interested in getting a second. For funding groups who want those types of organizations to succeed. If you're a for-profit, how to Be Second has a matchmaking, not recruiting service where we make connections between first and seconds, where there's a relationship, energy, skill, and compensation match. Finally, if you're inspired by what we're doing here, you can support how to be second at How to be second.com/support. Thanks again. I'm looking forward to our next conversation.