Takeover: Benjie and Anna talk energy and leadership.

In this takeover episode, Benjie Hughes and Anna Hammond revisit the partnership that built Backthird Entertainment, reflecting on the tension and harmony between visionary thinking and operational grounding. From whiteboards full of unfinished ideas to the satisfaction of making things happen, they unpack creativity, leadership, personality wiring, and the surprising freedom that comes from knowing exactly who you are, and who you’re not. 

If you want more like this, subscribe or find more on Howtobesecond.com

This is One Second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities where we're exploring how we're different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at How to be Second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is what we call a natural 1iC, or a Visionary. Enjoy. 

Transcript

Nathan 0:00

Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is One Second, a react-style conversation between two people with wildly different identities. A Second, plans, systems, management, gets it done type of person... And what we call a natural 1iC, one of those in the clouds, ideas, visionary, entrepreneur type people. Each person is given a question before the start of the show, we hit record, and we see how two people with different identities react. We explore how we're different while embracing that we're better together. Today is a takeover episode, so instead of Nathan and Mondo, we're bringing in a completely different 1iC and Second, so we can see how the identities show up in totally different people, what's different and what's the same. I would love to see if you can figure out who is who. If you're glad this work exists, we need you to support it by either becoming a supporter for $5 at howtobesecond.com/support or shooting over an email to let us know why not. We cannot get better if we don't hear from you. On to the show. Benji Anna, the two of you are here because we're doing a one second takeover episode. That means instead of myself and Mondo, we're gonna have the two of you interview each other. Benji, how do you know Anna and vice versa?

Benjie Hughes 1:12

Anna and I built a business together. It had two names. First called back, third audio, a recording studio. Then later called back Third Entertainment, a wedding DJ and live music business. That was the part that scaled and the part that we really built. The way we built the recording studio was by minimizing the amount of time and energy it took from us. But we did that together over a period of. What was it? Probably six or seven years that we were both there at the same time. Eight years we were together.

Anna Hammond 1:38

Eight

Benjie Hughes 1:38

I shouted everything out. Anna wrote it beautifully on the whiteboard, built all the systems, then it ran for, for another few years after, after she left and somebody else came in, in her chair. And then I closed it down in 2020.

Nathan 1:48

It really wasn't worth running without you, Anna. Okay. Now that we have fully and obviously established, who is the one and who is the second, I'm gonna let you guys take it over and it's your show from here. Thank you so much for being on.

Benjie Hughes 2:01

My question is on top and I am the one which means I always go first. No, I don't think it means that I'm just Anna. You brings you energy and, and then I'll add a sub question that you can answer as part of your overall answer. What do you retreat to? For me, those might be different answers. So, so I'm, I'm gonna put 'em both out there.

Anna Hammond 2:18

I think for me they're different as well. I think the older I get, you know, thinking back to when we first started, which was like so long ago, it doesn't bear mentioning now, to now one of the threads that has stayed really consistent for me. Is the joy of watching things grow and thrive. I think I find a lot of joy in that from a business perspective, like having that, you know, to speak directly to the, the one, two relationship of being able to say, Ooh, we could make that idea happen. That brings me energy. And I've learned that that's kind of a unique gift where it doesn't wear me out. There are people I know for whom that is an exhausting thing. I get from A to B? But I also think that in my life I find a lot of energy just generally watching things grow. I love my identity as a mother. Because get to watch my children grow and see like who they're becoming and all of the surprises that come with that. very energizing. I like to grow my plants in my house for the same reason, like right now they're all starting, even though their houseplant and their tropical, they're starting to respond to more light. And so there's this like sense of surprise and delight when I discover like new leaf buds. So I think that that's just true for who I am. I love to watch things grow and be surprised by them. As for what I retreat to, it's stories I love to read, and I, I

Benjie Hughes 3:54

Um,

Anna Hammond 3:55

an overlap there, surprise, delight, and the story. But yeah, that's,

Benjie Hughes 3:59

yeah,

Anna Hammond 3:59

the big one for me.

Benjie Hughes 4:01

you and I have in common, but interestingly, the first thing, no. But I, I wanna ask a follow up question before I, before I give my answer. 'cause I am, I'm curious. I hope this isn't just for me. I don't think it is. You and I work together. It's probably been a decade or something. We've stayed friends, we, we've chatted off and on, and your time with me was your first sort of real job and it was my first entrepreneurial experience. The things that you just shared about, that you know about yourself, like the love of watching things grow, the things that give you energy. I'm curious, did you have that self-awareness then, or has it come to you through other experiences you've had since our time working together? Did you need more than one company of data to know that about yourself? For one life stage?

Anna Hammond 4:39

well, yeah, and I think when I came to back third, I was out of college, so I was probably. 23, and I think a lot of your twenties is figuring

Benjie Hughes 4:49

I.

Anna Hammond 4:49

you are. And so I had a lot of space while we were doing that to figure out who I was, kind of as we were figuring out who back third was. Which I really appreciate because I had so much space in that and in like the safety of our relationship to say wait a minute, I'm actually really good at this and actually I really hate this. And so, because our relationship was what it was. I was able to kind of like grow into who I am as a person. but I think I was aware of this during that season as well. I think it's pretty baked into who I am that I love to see a plan from start to finish. Like I definitely feel more excited something is finished versus when something is beginning. Which I think is probably different for you. Maybe.

Benjie Hughes 5:39

Oh yeah.

Anna Hammond 5:40

I know that's different for you. What am I saying? And so I think that's been true all along. I've just been able to sort of hone in as I've gotten older and trust that instinct in myself. Whereas when we were building back third together, it was kind of like, I think this is who I am. I think that I wanna be this person. think I am, you know, energized by the delight along the way. And now I know. Now I'm sure

Benjie Hughes 6:05

Okay.

Anna Hammond 6:06

being what it is.

Benjie Hughes 6:07

Okay. All right. Thank you for going there. One of the things I've wondered about you is, I, I think I've shared this with you before, but like, I didn't have a name for this relationship and this, this dynamic until much more recently.

Anna Hammond 6:16

Yeah.

Benjie Hughes 6:17

with you the first time I sort of discovered it and I I was sort of curious how you had discovered it in other dynamics, in relationships since.

Anna Hammond 6:23

Yeah. Well, and I think too, like I've had permission after working with you. I. I think it was later in life, like my post back third

Benjie Hughes 6:33

yeah.

Anna Hammond 6:33

Where I like really landed, where I was like, oh, I'm comfortable here. This isn't just like something I'm good at and gives me energy. I could actually be an expert at this, at the, being a second at creating systems, at seeing ideas from beginning to end, Because of maybe how I was raised, or American culture in general. When I was in my twenties, I kind of thought like at some point I should probably have my own ideas and my own visions in order to be a successful human. I never felt oh, I really wanna be an entrepreneur. I think that that will be really fun and delightful and give me joy. It honestly just kind of makes me nauseous to think that way. And I don't know why that is. I think I am just not, I'm not a visionary. It's

Benjie Hughes 7:15

That's reassurance I was looking for because I've told you this, but literally I looked back on that time and I was like, was I stomping all over Anna? Like, could she have done much bigger, cooler things? Because my experience of visionary people is much closer to, this town's not big enough for the both of us.

Anna Hammond 7:28

Mm-hmm.

Benjie Hughes 7:28

I assume that like of course that's gonna be the dynamic with everyone capable. I continue to be odd and excited that, that it is not.

Anna Hammond 7:35

Yes, and it also brings me energy and joy to be that person, especially to kind of the struggling visionary, which I'm not gonna lump you in that category. I remember when you called me when you, when you called me to hire me, and you said something like, will you please come work for me? Or something it was like, will you please make it better? But since then, when I've had the opportunity to come alongside and two, three other people since that time and, and just like being able to bring in that calm sense of like, oh no, I've got this. I think visionaries can have a tendency to flail a little bit. And to be like able to be like, oh no, we're grounded. We're good. Yeah, just to be that kind of solid presence, and feel really secure and like, I'm doing what I'm meant to do.

Benjie Hughes 8:17

It's so crucial.

Anna Hammond 8:19

yeah.

Benjie Hughes 8:19

so crucial. Should I, I feel like I should do the energy question. Should I do the energy question?

Anna Hammond 8:23

Yes. What brings you energy, Benji?

Benjie Hughes 8:26

so I thought of, and not stupid answers, but I thought of very basic answers. coffee. The one that I'm really noticing right now is sleep. Like I have really noticed in the last couple of months how crucial it is that I get enough sleep. If I don't, I'm bummed out. I have less energy. I'm not jazzed, but I think the,

Anna Hammond 8:41

happen to know that you have a 2-year-old who is waking up a lot at night right now,

Benjie Hughes 8:46

I do, yes. Last night it was only once at midnight, but she also took from seven until nine 30 to fall asleep. So it was a, it was a hall man.

Anna Hammond 8:56

yeah, that's rough.

Benjie Hughes 8:57

and I can't remember if I was out networking last night or if that was the night before because it all runs together. But I'm also an introvert, so that doesn't bring me energy either. The talking, but, the sort of other answer that will not surprise you in any way. The work. Let's build things. Answer is at the whiteboard, by myself or especially with someone else. And you know this already, but there's something about physically being at the whiteboard. Paper is okay. Really doesn't work at a computer at all. Like I have to be standing up and moving around and writing the thoughts and ideas, big and planning things. And if I go over to that whiteboard and just start writing. It will wake me up and I'll get excited about whatever I'm doing and I'll start to feel like I'm getting somewhere. and it was funny 'cause when you said growing things, I thought, yeah. Oh, me too. And then you started to go to kids and plants and I was like, no, no, no, no. Oh, okay. It's not growing things. It's figuring out what's gonna grow or what it's gonna look like when it's grown or what I want to grow or how it's gonna get there. watching it grow, I'm not like, I wish I was that way. I would probably have more energy, right? I'm not a very zen person because I'm not often in the present to notice the plant growing. I just look at it afterwards and go, huh, taller. But yeah, it's the whiteboard and it's the sleep, which gives me the energy to think and focus clearly enough to get the whiteboard. And then what do I retreat to? You know, it is stories like you, is also the more general answer. And I don't know if this is a one answer or just an introvert answer, but my head. Places that I can get in my head, that includes books, that includes certain kinds of video games. For me, it includes sitting with a pen and paper, anywhere where I can be. But the book or the game is easier because it helps to be on rails. There are no rails on the whiteboard, but for me to sort of go and retreat and feel like I'm resting, I still wanna be in my head thinking thoughts, but I want a guide for that. Go over here, let's think about this. This is the thing that's next. I, I, I.

Anna Hammond 10:46

to an NPC and get some directions.

Benjie Hughes 10:48

Yeah. And the two things I'm realizing are they're narrative experiences that are on rails, but they are also self-paced. Unlike a film, I also love films, but, but it is, and I love comic books because comic books are like a film, but self-paced. You go at your own speed. You can go back and reread that panel if you want. I don't know. There's something for me about that that is more restful when I can kind of move as quickly or as, or as slowly as I need to and process at the speed that I want. That is different from when I'm on rails and somebody else has their, is controlling the gas, the throttle, and I,

Anna Hammond 11:20

Yeah. But you can slow down or speed up,

Benjie Hughes 11:23

yeah.

Anna Hammond 11:24

know, in a way that makes your brain happy. Yeah.

Benjie Hughes 11:26

The sequence is also, is also what I find restful. When you're the whiteboard, there's not a sequence. When you're doing a business, there's not a sequence and you have to figure it out, is fun. But the retreat is like, someone already made this sequence. I know that we're gonna go action.

Anna Hammond 11:38

me

Benjie Hughes 11:39

Yeah, for real. For.

Anna Hammond 11:41

like at the whiteboard, there's no sequence. And I was like, what? Of course there is.

Benjie Hughes 11:45

Yeah. And for contacts, dear listener, I am now in my second business and I am at the very beginning where I'm all alone. And so I'm highly aware of the need, for a second, but because I don't have an Anna who's here day in and day out. I meet with Nathan Young regularly and he helps me to at least not swim in a circle for an hour, like a drunk shark. But I really miss that ability to be like, if we did this? And then someone else will help me pull it off of the whiteboard. So many things just stay on the whiteboard. I just draw 'em up there and then a month later they're still there. Or in a photograph on my phone of the whiteboard of which there are dozens at this point. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky to not be the active leader.

Anna Hammond 12:22

that. would say if I had to, kind of the corollary to this question, and I don't know if we're allowed to do this, but would be kind of like, what drains you? And for

Benjie Hughes 12:29

I think we take, take.

Anna Hammond 12:31

whatever we want. Yeah. We can talk about our favorite movies for 45 minutes. The, corollary for me would be like, what drains me, and for me, it's when stuff gets added to the whiteboard and then doesn't ever turn into anything. Like, I hate hoarding ideas. It drives me crazy. I would rather be like, okay, yeah, here's a good one, let's make it happen. Whereas like,

Benjie Hughes 12:54

I kind of agree with that, but probably for a different reason.

Anna Hammond 12:57

yeah. Tell me about your reason.

Benjie Hughes 12:58

I can't stand it when the, now we're being metaphorical and not literal 'cause there's an eraser for the literal whiteboard. But when the metaphorical whiteboard is full. I feel just like I do when the kitchen counter is full. Mm-hmm. Like, there's nowhere for me to put my cereal bowl now. I want the stuff off the whiteboard so that I can put more stuff up there and that, and I need that mental space. Over the r said 20 years ago, like, they had to put good dog, bad dog out. This is going way back, but for the three people listening who know who that is. They released it as a demo album and they were like, we just had to put the demos out because we couldn't make the next album until we put this one out. And that's how I feel about all this stuff on the whiteboard. Something's gotta be done with it so that I can put more stuff on the whiteboard. that's probably not the reason you need it to get done. Is that true?

Anna Hammond 13:38

No, I need it to get done because I need the energy from it. I need the energy from watching it grow and bloom. And if I don't have that, then I get really drained and that kind of brings me out. In my last job, two jobs after back third, my last relationship, I got an email from, a coworker who was a big time visionary. And you know, this person, I'm not gonna say their name, but big time visionary. Singer songwriter. Had a hole manifesto our social media strategy and like just vision oozing from every sentence. Very like and big thinking. And I replied and said, I appreciate your energy. We just had this conversation three months ago. I need to see a content calendar. I'm going to get frustrated. I'm gonna get, like, you know, we have to, things have to happen. I

Benjie Hughes 14:27

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 14:27

like that's a refrain. I've said three or four times now just to end this call. Stuff has to happen. I have to make it happen. If I don't make it happen, I'm gonna burn out.

Benjie Hughes 14:34

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 14:35

Um, oh.

Benjie Hughes 14:36

it when things happen, but I don't seem to make them happen. Did you have to make the content calendar? Is that the end of that story? Did you have to make the content calendar?

Anna Hammond 14:43

because I'm a two one C, so I found a college student and had them make the calendar

Benjie Hughes 14:48

You're a two iic.

Anna Hammond 14:50

two ic. Okay.

Benjie Hughes 14:51

It stands for end command. Yeah.

Anna Hammond 14:53

Oh, okay.

Benjie Hughes 14:53

So you, you delegated it, write it right off your

Anna Hammond 14:56

it. Yeah.

Benjie Hughes 14:57

You delegated it and elevated it. I love it. The next question is yours, so you're in control

Anna Hammond 15:03

I think that that's a good. I'm gonna be a leader right now and ask this question,

Benjie Hughes 15:07

rocking.

Anna Hammond 15:08

leadership mean to you?

Benjie Hughes 15:10

great. Yeah. Delegated to me. I had all this time to think about it, but I guess I succeeded in being present minded. 'cause I didn't think much ahead of time. What does leadership to me? This is hard because I am hearing Nathan and Mondo's answers from last week. I listened last week. I

Anna Hammond 15:25

listen to that one.

Benjie Hughes 15:26

don't know when they will be. And they were fire. They gave really good answers to this.

Anna Hammond 15:30

Hmm.

Benjie Hughes 15:30

That I mostly liked and they made a distinction, or Nathan made a distinction between leadership and authority, which I liked. And I don't remember all the rest of it, but I think there is a distinction. I struggle with this a lot because I think I have been a leader or wanted to be a leader for much of my life. I have not often had authority or even beyond that, like power. Like ability to get people to do what I wanted or to even see what I want. I struggle with that now. Probably the reason I'm a marketer and a communicator is because I'm a thinker. What I do well for other people is. You know, get to the simplicity on the other side of the complexity. That's what I try to do for my clients. Like take all of the complex ideas that they have and boil them down so that people can understand them again. And I'm probably obsessed with doing that because I feel like I'm always having to do it for myself. This will eventually get back to the leadership thing, I promise, but like. I think I often have felt, and I maybe I'm dealing with this right now, being the founder and having to sell again, I often feel not understood or like, why can't I boil this down and make it simple enough for people to get, and because of that, I feel like I have very little authority. So there is a distinction between the two, but I've always had this sense of like, I see things different. I wanna do things differently. I'm just gonna give a bunch of thoughts on this. Now that my brain is rolling. One answer I wanna give is leadership means going first. So literally leading and going first. That is often the hard part and despite what we think, the person who's lauded for the new thing is usually not the first. They're like the second or third or the person who waited until market conditions were right or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? It's not Mark Zuckerberg, it's not even Tom from MySpace. It's whatever the crap version of MySpace was before that, that none of us remember.

Anna Hammond 17:10

Live Journal.

Benjie Hughes 17:11

There you go. But they were the leader, right?

Anna Hammond 17:14

We don't

Benjie Hughes 17:14

Um,

Anna Hammond 17:15

names. Yeah.

Benjie Hughes 17:16

yeah. I think it means going first paying a cost for that because somebody's gotta look and see. The other thing I'm thinking of is, again, this is gonna be a niche reference. You'll get it. I think this audience will follow. But when Christianity Today did the podcast on Mars Hill, did you listen to that? The rise and fall of Mars. mega church, 20 years ago, toxic pastor, loads of people hurt by this toxic culture at this church. Too big to be shut down kind of thing. Eventually you listen to that story. Listen to the whole thing and what you hear over the whole story arc is. For a while, it's bad, but nobody says anything. And then people start saying something and they lose everything. Like the first few people who step up and go, Hey, this is bad and toxic and I don't like it. Lose their jobs, lose their income, lose all of their friends. They're completely cut off and shunned by the community. 'cause this church has become their whole life. And then incredibly number two gets up and does it, and it happens to them. And then person number three gets up and does it. And by the end of the story. these people are doing it and they're in support groups, in people's homes, like recovering from this toxic environment that they've had together and these new beautiful things are happening and, and growing and there's a lot of wounding too, but like the leaders were the ones who went first. So often when I think of leadership, the one who's willing to go first and like be among the first one or three or 10 people who suffered that somebody else can go, eh. You know, you make some good points maybe I have the courage to go there too, 'cause you demonstrated it. that's the leadership I aspire to and I think a few times I have managed to, emulate to display in my own way. but that's the leadership I aspire to. other thing I'll say, and then I then maybe I'll let you answer the question as my personal of myself as a leader I think there are different flavors and mine is less AOR and more Gandalf. I feel like my calling is to be the person who leads from the outside. Maybe this explains why I gave the answer I just did. But you know, the wise sage who wanders the countryside and again steps up and says, this isn't quite right over here, or this is right. Like he's very much a leader. He goes to the Hobbits and calls him to come out and do this and do this and whatever. But he is a leader without the backing of an institution. that for whatever reason, has stupidly always been attractive to me, which is maybe why I haven't taken a W2 since I was 25 years old. Like, I just wanna be on the outside for whatever reason. And that is also why maybe I find it hard to get authority 'cause that's often from the institution. The leadership that I want is, is something different, more of a John the Baptist in the wilderness and less of a. of a king on the throne type of leadership. Although both have.

Anna Hammond 19:40

not a lot of glory in that. Like what you're describing is a very courageous thing that is not safe, that is not glorious. Neither of those examples, either the whistleblower or the wandering wizard, both of those are archetypal of, of someone who really is not driven by the things that most, you know, like safe American heroes, let's call them, are driven by. You're driven by your values and what you think the world needs and what you need and your own character and integrity. There are not many people out there who are willing to be that bold and know, live their life according to that. And

Benjie Hughes 20:22

It's tricky.

Anna Hammond 20:22

you are a leader in that sense. Definitely.

Benjie Hughes 20:25

you for that. That's certainly what I aspire to. think I've gotten there a couple of times. I feel like I'm talking about it a lot and I feel like I need to assure people that I, I, I don't feel that I've gotten there yet, what I aspire to. I feel like I need to bring it down a little bit. Like my beard ain't that long. I'm not there yet. Would you like to answer that question for yourself? What does leadership mean to you?

Anna Hammond 20:42

leadership mean to you? I feel like your answer is so lovely and quite knowable. so I understand why you made the caveat you just did. Well, this is why I love you and value our friendship so much. I think for me. Leadership is going first. I love that. I am trying to think of a way to put this, that doesn't sound cliche and I'm struggling, so maybe I'll start with the cliche and go from there. think for me a lot of leadership is owning it things don't go well. Which is, I suppose, a little bit like being the one to go first.

Benjie Hughes 21:24

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 21:25

but

Benjie Hughes 21:26

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 21:26

receiving blame, accepting blame, is a big one, I think, for a good leader. And then the pathway forward being like, I guess the LinkedIn phrase would be, you know, solutions oriented. But the posture, if you will, of this didn't work and here's the reasons that I think it didn't work, and here's how I would like to change that for the future. I think goes a really long way getting people to follow because they're, you're not just then saying like, I'm gonna do a scary thing and you're gonna do it with me. You're really showing up with good character and integrity. to think of a specific example.

Benjie Hughes 22:11

A specific question?

Anna Hammond 22:12

a, a time that I messed up,

Benjie Hughes 22:14

You don't wanna do that.

Anna Hammond 22:15

I'm having trouble thinking of a time.

Benjie Hughes 22:17

So here's a related question that I have that might help me get concrete. And I'm genuinely curious. When you think back at our time at back third, you and I were both leaders there eventually. When we started it was just me and then it was just you and me. But by the end. Dear listener, the last photo I had, there were probably 25 people, right? And this was an events business. So in the office there were never more than maybe four of us during the week, but then we had all of these people who were going out. We had all of these DJs and musicians who were going out working for us on the weekends, and they would be in and out during the week. They would be doing things, sometimes interacting with us, sometimes meeting with clients or preparing. And sometimes a month or two months, we'd go and we wouldn't see 'em, and then we'd all get together at the end of the year. There was sort of this like everybody in and out kind of vibe. So having set that context, is your perception or your memory of how I exercise leadership versus how you exercise leadership in that

Anna Hammond 23:03

Ooh.

Benjie Hughes 23:04

environment? Because we both did.

Anna Hammond 23:06

Yeah. That is a solid question because I think it is very different for each of us.

Benjie Hughes 23:11

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 23:12

I remember that for a little while on our website. My bio said something about captaining the ship. like Picard than Kirk, or more like, yeah, Picard, not Kirk.

Benjie Hughes 23:23

for that.

Anna Hammond 23:23

But definitely that sense of

Benjie Hughes 23:26

But wasn't that just because Kirk was kind of an As or, or was there something more than that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Anna Hammond 23:31

for sure. Oh man. I am a big pick hard fan. Next generation all the way for me. But, although I mean Jane way, being the woman doing the thing, like, get it girl. But, I really loved the way that he was able to, and this is such a two I IC thing, I think, being able to get all the information from the various places, synthesize it, make the decision, and then go with it. Does not answer the question of how I think that leadership involves owning mistakes. I'm struggling to think of a specific Star Trek episode, 'cause it's been a while since I watched those. But, I feel like when we were in that place of having a lot of staff, especially staff who would, you know, be in and out of the office. And so we didn't have a lot of FaceTime. It was a lot of that for me, it was a lot of, okay, you know, I need this, I need that. I have this problem, I have that problem. And people were looking to me to say, here's how this weekend's gonna go. Okay, we don't have this gear. Here's how we're gonna fix this problem.

Benjie Hughes 24:25

Oh my.

Anna Hammond 24:26

So it was a lot of more like low level delegation style leadership, but very locked into the day-to-day with one eye on the. Present, like, here's what we need right now, another eye on here's how we're gonna make sure that this doesn't happen again. how we're gonna make sure that, you know, we have the staff that we need, we have the gear that we need as we scale, as we grow. Here's how we're gonna change our hiring processes. We're learning lessons about our hires. Like, oh, these kinds of people make great DJs and MCs and these kinds we've learned do not, and so we're going to change the way that we hire. We're gonna change the way that we train.

Benjie Hughes 25:01

I remember when we got to the point where think we met every week and I think we probably had a, this weekend, you know, a month out and year or something. We did kind of a check several out, but I remember for me how relieving it was to not even have to know what was happening this weekend. Like Anna's got it and it's on a page somewhere, and those people are gonna come in and get the gear that Anna has assigned them. This is my memory of you exercising leadership, you tell me if you hated this or loved it, but I at one point bought, and to this day as Pavlovian for me now I wear noise canceling headphones when I work. I bought noise canceling headphones so I could go in the back. Because our office was this big open room, and then I had like a little walled off room in the back, but it wasn't walled off all the way to the ceiling so I could hear everything and I put my noise canceling headphones on and I sat back there. And then the DJs would come in and ask you questions. Like you were literally reading the names of brides and grooms into his phone so that he could. Correctly pronounce their names. So you were doing very like ground level, like with each of the individuals and then also the equipment and the schedule and what was happening. And I was not and didn't want to. So you were leaving the individuals much more.

Anna Hammond 26:07

To use, to lean more on the Star Trek analogy, which, you know, anyone listening to this is gonna be like, wow, she's a nerd and I promise I'm not that much of a nerd, but kind of like I'm captain on the bridge and you are like star Fleet command. Like,

Benjie Hughes 26:19

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 26:20

But I'm capped on the bridge. That's my sweet spot. Like that is absolutely where I wanna be. I'm in that with my current role now. I have a team of probably about 15 to 20 people under me. And, you know, it's a school, so I'm working at a micro school right now. and so this week it was like we had substitute. We had a behavior issue with a kid. We have, you know, da da da, we have a parent meeting, we have this, we have that. And it's like, people are coming to me and I'm like, okay, we got it. That also energizes me. I'm like, oh, there's a wrinkle. Let's fix the wrinkle. We're gonna be amazing. Am I exhausted at the end of the day? Yes, very. But then, you know, when the founder comes in and she's talking about like these big picture value, visionary things, I'm just, I'm like. I gotta go home now. I'm tired solving the problems all day long. Talking about like, here's how we're gonna change the world of education.

Benjie Hughes 27:11

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 27:12

I go home, I tired.

Benjie Hughes 27:13

Yeah, my favorite was the couch meeting. That's my back third answer for us. You ran the weekly meetings, I think you literally ran the weekly meetings. And then I did a quarterly meeting where we all got up from the conference table and walked five feet away over to the sofa and sat around the coffee table on the sofas.

Anna Hammond 27:27

Yes.

Benjie Hughes 27:28

did the graphs and the charts and the what are next year's sales goals gonna be and all the bigger picture stuff. And that was what was fun for me. So it was more about charting a course, looking at where we've been and feeling good about it, and charting a course where we're gonna go and you were driving the ship to get there?

Anna Hammond 27:43

driving the ship. many more sci-fi references can we sneak

Benjie Hughes 27:47

driving the ship.

Anna Hammond 27:48

Yeah. I also remember that you had your two chairs. You had your like desk chair, your like computer chair, and then you had a comfy chair and you needed time in both of your chairs,

Benjie Hughes 28:02

I still do.

Anna Hammond 28:03

you needed you, you still do.

Benjie Hughes 28:05

Oh, yes. I still do. I'm at my desk right now, but I basically out of shot here, have a living room where I go into, in my view, my most important work. Like there's a, so far and there's a whiteboard and I'm between those two for the, for the good shit, right? The stuff that's really fun and feels really important. And then I come over here when I have to ship something, or be on a call. Yeah.

Anna Hammond 28:24

But I remember thinking like, oh, he's, he's getting twitchy, he needs chair time. And I am not that way at all. I'm happy to sit in a chair and I don't know, daydream about whatever book I'm reading or something or, you know, but yeah, I am happiest when I'm on my feet. Today, I had a little bit of downtime, in my current role and I, was like, I've been sitting at my computer for 20 whole minutes writing this thing, and I had to get up and walk around and things to make things happen. Just sitting and coming up with ideas is, is really hard for me, and I wish it were easier. Sometimes I feel like there's a pull for creativity. And I don't know if this is just something cultural or social that I've picked up that like, you know, the really cool people, the real creatives out there able to. Sit in a chair or a studio and just invent and dream and have visions. And sometimes I wonder, should I try to, foster that within myself? But anytime I've ever tried, I, I haven't felt very good about it. So yeah, think that's, that's not who I am. That's not who I am.

Benjie Hughes 29:29

I mean, it is different. You and I are different for sure. As I've gotten older, I've started to be more suspicious of the, like, you know, creation, XN Hilo idea of, of creativity. People have asked me what my vision is for, you know, hopeless marketing, a year and a half in, and I'm more and more comfortable saying like, I don't have one. I started this 'cause I just feel like I wanted to put on my Gandalf rope and head out into the wilderness and see what was next. And then I create as I go. But the sort of giant big picture vision is it's helpful to point off in the distance and say, that's the direction I'm gonna head. I, think it's that helpful or that true to just be like, yeah, you know, the way you're gonna change the world from day one and that's what you do. The big vision is more of a tool a sort of a map. Compass might be a better analogy. To figure out where you're heading.

Anna Hammond 30:12

Yeah,

Benjie Hughes 30:13

So,

Anna Hammond 30:13

a lot of improv. A lot of improv to life,

Benjie Hughes 30:15

yeah, and, and you need, I need constraints to be creative. Like I need to sit in the chair and have a problem to solve, which is probably why I wanted to head off in the wilderness. You know, it's almost a way to like create the problems to then solve creatively as much as it's not just that there's a particular, some people do, they're like, oh, I wanna fix climate change. Off I go. but for me it's just more like I wanna get outside, I wanna get out in the wilderness where there's more room and nothing's been built so that I can build something. What are you gonna build? I don't know. Whatever's needed when I get there should probably get a house first, like figure it out when I get there, you know,

Anna Hammond 30:45

The

Benjie Hughes 30:45

different kind.

Anna Hammond 30:46

I need constraints to be creative. I did like a little art workshop. It was like a little meditation, you know, self-care type of event at a local place here in town. And it was like we could watercolor, but the palette was very limited. So that was kind of the idea, like expressing yourself with constraints. And I do enjoy that. I find a lot of freedom in that.

Benjie Hughes 31:07

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 31:07

of coming up with my own constraints of wandering into the wilderness to find the problem to solve, that feels very foreign to me. I'm like, why would I need to do that when there's so many problems right in front of me to solve?

Benjie Hughes 31:20

Right, right here. Yeah. I don't know. For me it's like, 'cause I need more room. There. There's, there's some other visionary that's too close to those problems. I need some elbow.

Anna Hammond 31:28

Oh yeah.

Benjie Hughes 31:29

I can't decide if that's healthy or selfish or if the Venn diagram overlaps between those two. Just like a desire to like find my space to solve problems, then. I got something to contribute, man, and it's hard to name what it is, but I, I better go over there so that I can contribute it.

Anna Hammond 31:43

Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Well, and you also have that that drive to be the one to go first. And so

Benjie Hughes 31:51

Yeah.

Anna Hammond 31:52

that I. You have a sense of someone else is already here, someone else is already doing this. You're like, well, maybe I have something to offer elsewhere.

Benjie Hughes 31:59

So,

Anna Hammond 32:00

that

Benjie Hughes 32:00

yeah. And let's just go full Enneagram, 'cause this is a, this is an identities podcast. Are you a five like me or are you a four?

Anna Hammond 32:06

Four. Four.

Benjie Hughes 32:07

I remember.

Anna Hammond 32:07

I'm a four. And what's interesting to me is that when I was in my twenties, so while we were doing back third, for most of that time, I mistyped as a three very strong three wing. And then it was your wife, pointed out a couple of things about me, specifically about my shadow self. Listeners you should know that I am besties with Benji's wife and have been for most of my life. and i'm a four. And then what's interesting is that after I had children, when I had little babies and stepped away from working for a little while, I really flipped wings. So I am now a pretty solid five wing, I would say.

Benjie Hughes 32:43

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I couldn't remember if you had gone full five or if you were four. I had in my head that you were four. I'm a five with a strong four wing, so sometimes I,

Anna Hammond 32:54

the, we're both crossing the gap,

Benjie Hughes 32:56

yeah, and sometimes I suspect a lot of the need to like, oh, another person's already solving that problem. Well, then I can't, I have to go find my own thing. Is more of a like, like four vibe. I know, every founder doesn't think that way. know every five doesn't think that way, but there's something about the intersection for me where it's like. I have to architect these giant plans on my whiteboard and they have to be completely unique, which really slows me down as a founder because I can't just take someone else's existing proven process, preexisting business model that we know works boring. Like, I gotta go learn, I gotta go learn three other processes, then I gotta combine 'em, add some spices that I grew myself and invented, you know? Cause it gotta be mine, man. And, um.

Anna Hammond 33:34

Hughes secret sauce.

Benjie Hughes 33:36

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's

Anna Hammond 33:37

It's

Benjie Hughes 33:38

cool, but it,

Anna Hammond 33:38

I feel like my five Wink really frees me up to not have to be unique, because when I was leaning hard into that three, it was like not only do I need to be unique, I need to be impressive, and then

Benjie Hughes 33:49

oh, yeah.

Anna Hammond 33:50

five, I'm like, oh, it's okay if people don't quite get me. I get myself, and that's what

Benjie Hughes 33:56

Yeah. Oh, that sounds like a better perspective. That's the one I need. If I'm gonna be Gandalf, man, I gotta be okay with other people. Not getting man, getting myself

Anna Hammond 34:04

Hard for us. At the bottom of the circle. Yeah.

Benjie Hughes 34:06

yeah. That's how I gotta roll.

Nathan 34:08

Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. I have a couple ways you can go deeper whether you resonated with the Second or the OneIC in this conversation. How To Be Second is a community of Seconds, people with this identity, and we're also experts at shepherding the journey of first-in-commands and Seconds from growing alone to going together, to growing together. Either way, you should join our email list at howtobesecond.com/email. If you resonated with the Second in this conversation, we have a ton of resources for you, like our community, our book, our guide system for Seconds, our assessment, coaching, meetups, even a professional development platform with job postings from our partner companies. If you resonated with the OneIC, we support your growing alone, going together, and growing together journey with coaching with a natural Second, our matchmaking-not-recruiting service where we help first-in-commands find their right-fit Second, and coaching for already connected first and Seconds to keep you growing together. Finally, if you're inspired by what we're doing here, you can support How To Be Second at howtobesecond.com/support. Thanks again. I'm looking forward to our next conversation.