Do you need more? Have you done enough?- One Second by How to be Second

Nathan and Mondo unpack the difference between healthy ambition and becoming a “black hole”, the kind of leader whose hunger for more eventually consumes everything around them. From Jungian wounds and leadership archetypes, to faith, surrender, AI, and the fear that drives people either to overperform or hold themselves back, they explore how different kinds of people move through the world. Along the way, they wrestle with speed, self-doubt, community, and why going together may be the only way to build something that doesn’t destroy the people inside it. 

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This is One Second, a conversation between two people with wildly different identities where we're exploring how we're different while embracing that we're better together. In our vernacular at How to be Second, I am a Second, and my co-host Armando Davison, is what we call a natural 1iC, or a Visionary. Enjoy. 

Transcript

Nathan 0:00

Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is One Second, a react-style conversation between two people with wildly different identities. A Second, plans, systems, management, gets it done type of person... And what we call a natural 1iC, one of those in the clouds, ideas, visionary, entrepreneur type people. Each person is given a question before the start of the show, we hit record, and we see how two people with different identities react. We explore how we're different while embracing that we're better together. If you're glad this work exists, we need you to support it by either becoming a supporter for $5 at howtobesecond.com/support or shooting over an email to let us know why not. We cannot get better if we don't hear from you. On to the show.

0:41

Oh, this is a interesting episode. Outside, a walk and talk One Second Podcast, new venture experience. I don't even know what we're gonna call this, but this is gonna be fun. It's funny because this is how this basically started, right? Yes. Not just, like, us hanging out, but I mean the idea of doing a podcast like this, the idea of these types of conversations. How many times have I looked at you and been like, Mondo, when people go on walks with you..." Like, it's been kind of an anchor idea- Yeah for a long time. It has. And so, and we did this for years- We did to, like, before we ever started turning a camera on. And so now we're just back. Like, this isn't a new idea. Full circle, right. This is the, yeah, this is the old idea. Bring some tech. And, you know, very Nathan, let's execute on the thing. You're like- Yeah "Oh, yeah, that made sense. Uh, here's a system." Yep. That's exactly right. You buy the stuff. Okay. Yep. We had an idea, I was struck by it, and then I, yeah, I just went and bought all the stuff that it needed it. I tested it. I did the whatever. I... So yeah, yeah. And now here we are. Everything is ready. All right. We actually kinda already were in the middle of a conversation. And so I think it might make sense, 'cause you did a really good job of, kinda setting up the Jungian kind of philosophy. Mm-hmm. And so just so we can dive back into that, can you, provide some context? Yes, for sure. So my question basically was around, unpacking the ways that we show up, even if we're the same identity. So, like, we're the same, not you and I, but, like, seconds show up in different ways. We were talking about OneIC showing up in different ways, right? And so, this is your archetype. It's, who you are, but it's also the people that you're talking to. It's, on some level, it's who you are serving. And so We were just unpacking, like, how differently do these people show up, and what's the thing? Yep. So then I was saying, "Oh, it sounds like you are describing this idea the, of Jungian philosophy. Carl Jung, not my dad, was this philosopher, and his primary thing that he dug into was the idea of, what he called a primal wound. And where it leaves people is that people either feel like they have never done enough, or they need too much. So, like, I'm on the I've never done enough. My natural tendency is to assume I always need to go the extra mile- Yeah just to be on par. Yeah, yeah. If I am ever not getting something that I want, if somebody's not my friend, if I haven't, then it's because I haven't gone far enough yet. The opposite- right? Of people on the other side. And so we're just unpacking, like, what that looks like when you're a visionary-type person and a OneIC and a first in command. And so you were talking about how that shows up differently. Yeah. Uh, what that looks like, yeah. Yeah, and so, like, I have always had this, and I'll even call it a privilege, like, this privilege feeling of whatever I want or desire, I deserve it. Hmm. And I am already equipped to receive whatever the blessing is. It's just whether I am or I am not, I feel like I am. Yeah. And so, how I show up, who I serve is, like, those individuals, but, like, that's not always true for the full range of that first-in-command archetype. Totally. 'Cause like you said, some people feel like, "I, I have to do more work," or, "I have to become more equipped," or, "I have to create this resume of credentials to feel like I can be in that seat potentially." And so all that to say, there's something very specific right now happening in leadership- Hmm where first in commands who are, like, conquerors at our core, we are destructing so much stuff, right? Like, we always want more. Yeah. I... This is not about politics. Hmm. But I look at Trump as a great representative of someone who dominated business and real estate in a certain kind of way. Yeah. And he was like, That was cool. I want more." Yep. Let me go now into television," Apprentice. Yep. "That was cool. I want more." Yes. "Let me go run for office in politics there, president. I want more." Yes. "Now I want countries." Yep. "We need... Like, I just wanna take over the world." And so there's this unhealthy habit of having to get or take the next thing, and we have to do better and be better. Yeah. On the flip side, so, um, 1000%, and I think there's probably a bunch of caricatures of this. And one of the things that we talked about was, like, okay, other people that we can think of who fit into this archetype of, like, being the OneIC, but also being sort of, like, voraciously, destructively... Like a black hole, right? Yeah. Like, no matter what they get, the answer is always, "But more is more." Yeah. And, for some reason, more is better. Hmm. We don't know why. There's no concept of enough. A black hole is kind of the right- Yeah I feel like, on that. But a couple of the archetypes that we came up with were, like Alex Hormozi- And, uh- Sam Altman. Yes. Sam Altman. Right. Yep, that's the one right now. And so interestingly, I didn't have, a female representation of this. Ah. That- I'm sure there are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm positive there are. Yeah. I just don't know who they are. You know, you used the, symbolism black hole. Mm-hmm. Which is so dope. I remember watching, I think the movie was, it's called Maestro. Hmm. Um, but it's about just this radical conductor, of some, like, symphony orchestra or whatever, and it was also a love story, right? And I have heard somebody tell me this before, and they also said it in this movie, which is about, like, the gravitational pull of that person. Yes. And however or wherever they show up, like, they just shift- Yeah the culture or the humans, and, like, everybody starts to revolve around that person. But kind of to your point, oftentimes that person is unhealthy. Yes. And it's a black hole. Yes. And people just, like- Yeah start to fall into this. Oh, totally. You get destroyed eventually. Yes. Like, it's really attractive for a while, and it seems like that... Yeah, like the gravitational pull. That's funny, 'cause I've described other people in that way. Mm. Where I remember the OneIC guy that I was... like, that I went and planted a church with. Yeah. And that's a funny, combination of having, like, this obvious and deep desire to serve people in community. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, this, like, I mean, I literally would describe him as somebody, like, I've described him before as a black hole. You know, we called it being in the gravitational pull of Mack. Yeah. And we talked about it as, like, when it gets bad, it's destructive. Mm-hmm. Obviously, we built some really incredible things. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, like, it went south hard. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. And a lot of it was anchored in that more, more, more, more, you know, like, no matter what. I think the other thing too is that we always inevitably... We were talking about this, and then I, I wanna ask you about the opposite, right? Okay. 'Cause right now we're very focused on the idea that, like, oh, here's this going on. Yeah. But the whole principle is, but there's a different side too. Yeah. Yeah. And so the thing that's a- about this side of the archetype is we often put these people on pedestals. Mm-hmm. So, like, destructive more is really attractive. Hmm. Right? We're like, "Give that guy the podcast. He's got it figured out." Yeah. "He knows how to get rich. He knows how to get people. He knows how to get resources. He knows how to..." Right? They have money and security and all the things that we're kind of like afraid to not have. Yeah, yeah. And so then we're like, "Well, that guy's built a huge company." Like, "Let's ask him how he did it." If they said it, if they came out and they were like, Well, I gobble up- everything around me. And I'm never happy and never satisfied, and I'll destroy you and your families and your kids and your communities and your whatevers- Yeah for the sake of having more in my empire, but I'm so convinced that doing that is for the good of everyone." I think that part- right, like the part you said at the end, which is the trap that we fall into, there is... Because many of us are a black hole- Yeah it, it's a blind spot, right? Like, there is this darkness that convinces us that even though we see good, we can't even notice that we are being destructive. Yes. And so before we switch to this other archetype, I would, you know, I always bring God or a relationship with Christ into the conversation because I feel like it saved me from being a black hole, right? Mm. And so if we stick with the same space symbolism, if a person becomes one with the sun- Mm-hmm there's a gravitational pull, but it's balanced. Yes. Right? We create this harmonious ecosystem of planets that are all revolving at a good distance. Yep. And so if that person in command does not have that relationship, and I know, you know, you use OneIC as first in command. Once I heard it and really thought about it, I was like, "Oh, one in Christ." Yeah. So, like, once a person is one in Christ, and like they're one with the sun, like they are a gravitational pull, but it's not a black hole. It's enough sunlight, enough love, enough compassion that everybody around them can flourish. And so, yeah, we gotta do better and be better, but I'll hold this for you for a little bit if you're okay. Yeah, yeah. Do it. Yeah. I don't want you to, you know, your arm to fall off. I accept the help. Oh, yeah. There we go. That was a lot spot. But yeah, let's talk about, like, that, that other side, or does it even make sense to... Do you think there's- I think there are, I think there are Seconds similarities in this. Okay. Yeah. So actually, like I've been thinking about this while we've been unpacking it on the OneIC side, and I'm like, "Well, the whole philosophy is the idea that these wounds show up no matter who you are." And so I'm like, "Well, wait. What do Seconds then often..." Now, I don't think I can speak for Twos 'cause I'm not, right? Within the Seconds hierarchy, we have like these bright lines on either side. Some of us are- a little more left foot systems first, and some of us are a little more right foot people first. I actually had a very funny example of this Like, so I showed up at Mondo's house. We're ready to, go on this walk. We know we're gonna record at some point. But I also had a birthday present for him, because it's Mondo's birthday. Nice. And the first thing I said was not, "Hey, happy birthday," blah, blah, blah. I said, "Do we wanna walk here or do we wanna drive?" That was literally the first thing I said. And then he was like, "Oh yeah, let's drive." And then I went, "Happy birthday. It's so good to see you." And I thought, Samantha would never do that. Yeah. She would've been exactly the reverse of that thing, right? Yeah. Something that I've seen, I actually worked for a guy who was the thing like me at TwoIC, and so this very systems first type of person. But they were definitely the nothing is ever enough for me. Mm-hmm. They were the black hole type. Mm-hmm. And they were, they were. They were destructive. They were... This is how, like, we described them. It wasn't different words. Yeah. Which is crazy. And the thing that they were willing to do was also very similar, because they would build systems for the intention of minimizing people. Hmm. Like, they would go, "Oh, I need to fire this person, so the mechanism by which I need to get rid of someone is that I'm gonna go h- over here secretly and build a system that I know that they can't actually get done." Yeah. And so the way we're gonna get more, get the better, get better people on the team, get better system, whatever, I'm gonna keep building things and get more, and more, and more, and more in a way that intentionally shuttles people out. I'm gonna shove them out so we can have more. And I was repulsed by all- Yeah, yeah all of this, right? Like, we know that this drove me to a very dark place. And so I actually see a lot of people like that in the second in command space. First of all, they're willing to, support the crazy never enough people. Yeah, yeah. And they think it's the right way to be. But also, they're like, I'm willing to build the torment nexus." Hmm. Not only am I willing, I think it's completely fine. Hmm. If you get caught up in the torment nexus, then that's your fault. And I'm on the exact opposite- Yeah, yeah side of that- Yeah where I always assume that I've never done enough. Huh. It's always me... If there's a bridge and I'm on this side and somebody else is on the other side, I assume that I have to go eight steps- Yeah out of the 10 steps of the bridge. Yeah, yeah. And so if they're not meeting me, if they're not g- doing the thing, even if they're, like, non-performant. Yeah. Then I always assume, "Oh, I need to- Take that next step I need to take the next- I need to go a little bit further, a little bit closer. Mm. So, like, even seconds show up. I'll always build a slightly better system. I'll always make exceptions in the system. Yeah. I'll always put people around. I'll always increase wages and hold my own back. I'll always like- Yeah. And so there are healthy bits of that, but I will go unhealthy on that side. Wow. I'm... Okay, I'm curious, so you talked about, like, creating this, what I heard was this system that's not compassionate, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Is that the destructive nature of AI, this era that we're stepping into? Hmm. 'Cause if logic or, I guess I'm looking at the news just enough to be like, it looks like a lot of people are losing their jobs, and so- Yeah especially people in tech who are being cannibalized because the tech can now do a lot of their jobs. So is it... Have we reached the point where, in your opinion, things are just going to get worse because we are over-indexing on tech and, losing track of, humans working together? 'Cause I th- I can't remember the language you said exactly, but it was something like getting so efficient that we get the humans out. Yeah. And so that seems to be happening, but I don't know. I'm not, I guess I'm not close enough. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I, I mean, I feel like we've seen this before. Right? At the end of the day, Sometimes we forget that people are people the whole time. And they always have been people the whole time. People are people the whole time, and they always have been. So we've done this before. Hmm. Like, I think of the pyramids- Hmm and I go, "Well, the pyramids were not built by, gigantic alone machines." Yeah. But we did build a gigantic alone machine that took advantage of people to build them. Ooh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And- Yeah the Industrial Revolution just happened, right? Like, that was, that was 100 years of we took advantage of people for the sake of building up a few. Mm-hmm. And everybody who owned the most efficient machines- Mm-hmm basically got to... Right? Yeah. And it's just a question of, imbuing a few humans with decision-making power and then being willing to carry out their p- decisions. Typically, the people who end up in those positions are the people who are black holes. Yeah. Right? Only the black hole, destructive, voracious, like- Yeah never enough people are willing to usually go that route. And fast enough to actually become dangerous. Mm. And so I'm like, "Well, we've done this before." Yeah. We, we have history that even if history is not gonna exactly repeat itself- Mm-hmm it certainly rhymes. Yeah. Ooh, that's a good one. That was good. It certainly rhymes. I'm gonna have to take that. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. It certainly rhymes. I just say a lot of stuff- Yeah, yeah, yeah and every now and then, you know? Right. Sometimes you're like, "Oh, mic drop." So I'm, what I'm watching is I'm watching a bunch of people who have been trying to figure out how to make things cost less, make more money, do all the stuff. Yeah. At the end of the day, what I'm feel like I'm watching more than anything else is that I'm watching a lot of people who are destructive black hole type people- Mm in the news, championed or whatever they, we demonized or it doesn't matter. Yeah. We've left them in decision-making power. And so I don't think, I guess at this point I'm saying it doesn't matter whether it's AI. It was the cotton gin. Yeah. Yeah. 100 and whatever years ago. Yeah. We've done this shit before. Yeah. So do I think we're gonna do it again? Yes. I do think we're gonna do it again. The other thing I think, just to anchor on all of this, is like I don't think again is even a fair term. There are whole swaths of the planet where it never got better. Mm. India is still a poor country. Mm. There are places on the planet where it's not, like it didn't hit a curve- Yeah and get okay. Yeah. Like, we're walking around in this space, which is obviously awesome- Yeah and we're talking about, oh, is AI going to take us and sort of set the power curve again- Yeah, yeah and remove people? And I'm like, Well, yeah, probably," because we haven't caught up everybody else from the last thing yet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or the thing before that- Yeah or the thing before that, right? Like, so are we gonna do it again? Yeah. We're not even done with the last time. Yeah, we're definitely gonna do it again. Is there hope in that? Um, well, yeah, there seem to be a whole bunch of us still, so like we're not all gone. I'm not totally sure that we won't all be gone at some point if we let it keep happening. But so far we've been able to let it keep happening for at least thousands of documented years, and we seem to eventually get to the point where we're like, We should stop this." Yeah. "This sucks." Okay, so then let, let's kind of unpack this a little bit. We'll call ourselves right now the little guys- Yeah in contrast to the black holes. Yep, I think that's fair. From a second perspective, 2IC, what do you do? Phew. Like, you can't do it all, so how does Nathan feel like he's supposed to contribute? Or is that, like even too grandstanding to think about and you're just like, "I need, I need it to be smaller. Let me think in increments." Help me understand how you show up in the world once you like, I don't know, take in all that is actually happening. Well, that's a good question. Before I answer that for myself, 'cause I'm not exactly sure, let me... The first place my brain went was to actually talk about the other side of this- Mm from the OneIC perspective. Fair. So we talked a lot about like the destructive side, but also in our conversation, the reason it came up was that we were like, "Oh, we recognize that there are some people who aren't like this." Yeah. And so I work with somebody who you just met, Benji, that we feel like Benji is the OneIC. Mm-hmm. He's got a bunch of the same energy. He's got "I'm Gandalf. I, I'm willing to go into the wilderness." Yeah. Something that you've talked about before is like you're sitting in the stadium, you're always willing to go find new seats alone. Yeah, yeah. You're just willing to go explore. And he is willing to do very similar things. Yep. But he, that wounding, if you will- Yeah is more like mine. Yeah. So he's not coming from a place of, I have a lot, but I always need more." Yeah. He's coming from a place of, I don't think that I've done enough yet." And man, what's so interesting about that, right, 'cause as a speaker, I feel like there are a lot of motivators or inspirational voices or tacticians that are talking to Benjis- Mm-hmm and like pouring into them to fill their cup. Totally. And I'm like, "Yo, that's dope. That's necessary." I understand that. Yes, and in this journey, in this experience, I was like, "I don't really do a good job of knowing Benji enough to actually, fill his cup." Hmm. Oh, yeah. Because I, I personally can't- understand what it's like to, and I'm saying this in the most humble way, like I don't really get doubt. Yeah. You know? Like, I don't understand it. And Benji's just like, "Yeah, I'll go explore and do these things, but I also have this doubt or, this anxiety or this insecurity that I might be doing it wrong- Yeah or I was out- Yeah, yeah here too long or whatever." And I'm like, Whatever I'm doing is right." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, how do I support a Benji or how do I support, a Laura King- Mm who, like, all the talent, all the gifts, wants to do better, but has moments where they're like, Am I, am I meant to do this?" Yeah. "Am I built for this? Can I handle the weight of all this?" And I'm like, What?" Yeah, of course you can. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right, right. But part of the gifts that I see in those people is I imagine, I don't wanna say never, but I imagine they won't become black holes. No, I don't think so. It's too far for them to even... Like, they care about people too much. They question if they are in service the right way. I don't wanna say too much, but s- significantly more than I do. And so they never become, this black hole, in the best way. Yeah. But they serve and show up differently. And I think all parties need to be a part of the same team, right? So if you say, like, the black hole type- Yeah And the Benji, and the second in command, and the two, like- Yep that Fantastic Four, when they all come together, you're just like, "Oh, all versions of the core archetypes are working on the same team, and somehow, some way it'll work." It's funny 'cause people have asked me before, "Hey, if you get a TwoIC to pair with the first in command, do you need also a two within the organization?" Mm. And I'm like, "Oh, no question." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I also really... You're kinda bringing up the requirement for coaching. This is a thing that we never stop talking about- Yeah, yeah is this idea of going together. Yeah. And going together isn't just this, this two people, right? Going together is, coaches, mentors, being in community in general. And, like, what you just said about, well, can we get, can we get somebody to speak into Laura? Yeah. And the answer is, well, yeah, 1000%. Like, you know Laura. Yep. And there are... so you get to bring that energy of, "Well, I don't have that wound that you've got." Yeah. Whether I'm there the entire time or sometimes or whatever, we can go together and I can speak this life into you, 'cause I don't have this crazy you have. Yep, yep. We're the same people. Yeah. But I can tell you from the other side this thing that's holding you back isn't a world thing. Yeah. It's a you thing. Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, like Samantha and I, I feel like we have a really great relationship, but also are a really great duo because she regularly gets to be the softer side of the- Mm. Yeah where I'm like, "What? D- blah, blah, blah." And so at all times there's like this, you have one person on one side and one person on the other side it constantly is coming back to the going together. Yeah, I feel like the Fantastic Four is probably a good idea. I was, I was kind of to that point. I was talking to Laura the other day and she said something that really hit, cause she's in a season that is... Anybody going on an entrepreneurial journey, they'd be like, "Man, this is a tough season." Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And it just creates some insecurities and like, man, like there's just a lot of stuff. And Laura said to me, "Yo, Mondo, thank you for doing what you did ahead of me." Mm. And so, like in many ways, Laura was just like, "You went and explored the wilderness and surrendered all your stuff and did this thing, and you showed up with this level of peace." Yeah. Because to me I was just like, "All right. It's gonna, it's gonna work out." Yeah. "It'll be fine." It's gonna be... It's gonna be fine. Right, right, right. And because she saw that example, she's now reflecting back "I don't need to be like Mondo." Yeah. "But I saw how he did it, so I know that it's possible. I know that there's some peace here somewhere, let me go find it for myself." Yep, yep. And so I learned like, oh, okay, like I was just called to lead. And so kinda like Benji said in his takeover episode- Mm-hmm one of the qualities to him for being in that seat is to lead. Yes. To go first. Yes. And I was just like, "Oh, I think I just went first-" Yeah and then I was a role model for one person or many people. And let me just continue to be first to move, and, God, continue to use me as an example or a model for whatever you want me to do. Yes. Let me ask you about this. Okay. So... Cause one of the things you're talking about is, yes, being first to move. And also I wonder how much speed. Mm. So like one thing that I've caught is that I move slower than the guy that I worked for who I felt was very dangerous and scary. Yep. And so a lot of people have told me, what you're doing with community is fantastic. I've even had a couple of these conversations in the last couple of days where like it really shows how much dedicated to community, that that thing is the focus of the thing. And also How To Be Second has grown slower. It has grown, like financially, like just now supports itself. Yeah. And I don't have to invest in it personally from my own- checking account. Like, seconds are now supporting How To Be Second in a way that makes it solvent. It's still a shitload of free work. Yeah. Yeah. Right? It doesn't pay anybody anything. Yeah. But it's not broke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm like, well, I've seen other seconds who, have gone a lot faster and have gotten a lot more money a lot quicker- Mm you know? And but they're not building community. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I'm like, oh, is the being the black hole thing, some level of it's a lot faster though? There is something there. Yeah. And yes, it can become dangerous, but I also feel like we're sort of setting up this idea on accident. Not, I'm not intending to do it. Yeah. But, like, Mondo had to find some balance in wanting the gigantic never-ending. Yep. Laura needs to find some balance in constantly doubting herself and feeling like she's never done enough. Yeah. At the same time, how do you not lose that speed? Mm. There's something to let's not build the torment nexus, but also we don't need to go at a snail's pace. Yeah. Like... Yeah. Doubt really slows you down. Yeah, yeah. No, I hear that. One thing, I use an analogy we haven't used in this conversation yet, but it helped me recognize my gap or flaw in my imagination. So for a long time, I used Superman as, an example, a role model, a good character, whatever, right? Mm-hmm. Like, high integrity and all the things. And Superman is known for being faster than a speeding bullet. Yep. Right? Like, how he saves people is he goes super fast, and he jumps over tall buildings in a single bound. Yeah. In contrast, I don't think Jesus jogged in the gospels. You know? Like... There's no scripture where Jesus ran anywhere. Right. And so I was like, "Oh, okay, well, this created character, Clark Kent-" Mm super speed, fast, all the things, and, like- Yeah he saves stuff, but he's always behind schedule. Yeah. There's always another something, right? Yep. Yep. Somewhere. And so I was just like, oh, well, if we continue to try to solve the world's problems through speed- Mm-hmm we see that story play out over and over and over. Yeah. Somehow, some way, there's this, kinda to your point, this divine timeline This like in sync with God's plan and he's like, "Oh, well, if you want to be on time with me," at least that's how I see it. "If you want to be on time with me, I'll give you what you need to solve your piece of the puzzle. And I'm also giving other people who are on the same God squad their piece of the puzzle. And together it's all gonna come together." And so like you just have to trust that there is this unified story happening for the good. Mm. And you're just one piece of grain of sand in this like big orchestrated thing. And so I chose to believe that. Yeah. And because of that, I don't need to move fast. But to your point, I do need to move. Yeah. And so for a long time, I was like being still. Yeah. And I was just like, "God, I would like to move, but" I don't know. I guess he was like, "Well, if you move, I'm not gonna catch up to you or this divine story, this, this timeline that I am on- Yeah you're gonna always be ahead of me." And so I had to find that timeline. Yeah. The divine line. And so... now how do we get Benji to go faster? Yeah. Yeah. We've slowed you down. Yeah. That's wonderful. Now we need to speed Benji up. Ooh. So what... 'Cause what he has is good. Yeah, yeah. Like his self-doubt is often the thing that's holding him back, whereas I've watched him get much more confident recently. Mm. And I feel like it has sped him up. Hmm. And I'm like, "Well, you've been you the whole time." Yeah. But stepping into these things confidently seems to have shifted a gear. Yeah. And so I'm curious how you would imagine, like as you're speaking to these people, you have a clear message. I feel like your primary message is surrender is the strategy. Yeah, yeah. Right? In both cases. Yeah. But there's a clear, like if you are nothing is ever enough for me- Mm-hmm I always need more. If you're that kind of person, I feel like you have a clear story for them because you've lived it. Yeah. What would you say to the people who are on the other side? Yeah. I mean, it's very easy 'cause like surrender is terrifying. Yeah. You telling me just all the fires around me- Yeah my logic is saying this whole thing is gonna collapse and I'm going to die, and you just want me to surrender and stand right here? That's scary. When I get on the other side of that and I don't die, or if we're using story, I die and I'm reborn in Christ in a certain way, great. Flip on the other side I don't feel like the objective mentally is go fast to get the thing. Mm-hmm. It's go fast cause you're scared to go fast. Mm-hmm. And when you go fast and you walk into that fear, and you're in the middle of the chaos, and you continue to still go fast and you do this thing that you're fearful of, eventually you're like, "Oh, man. I had enough faith to go fast and I didn't die." Yeah. And so You like start to surrender that anxiety that you had of going fast. And so I kind of like look at life now like nothing is about the external. Yeah. It's all about doing the thing that you're scared of doing, and once you do it and you get to a point where there's no way out except for to have faith, and then faith steps in and rescues you, you're just like, "Oh." Like this whole experience is a faith walk. And then when you recognize that and you're just like, "Oh, now I'm at peace more as a human being," then you like inspire other people to go on a faith walk too, or do the thing that they're scared to do. And so, I don't know, it's like Fear Factor, right? Like- Yeah, yeah I'm just, Hey, man, go play your Fear Factor game. I did mine. Here was mine." Right Like, "It worked for me." Like, "What's yours? Okay," I'm gonna encourage you, and "Don't stop. Keep going." And so... That's so funny to me because I've seen that show and I hate that show so much. I'm like, "Nope. Nope, nope, nope. This is not for me. I don't understand the entire idea of this." "This is insane. I don't get it. Why can't everything be Great British Bake Off?" So, okay, then let me ask, like what, what's the counter then? If you're like, "Fear Factor isn't my game"- Yeah what is the plot line or the conflict or the thing? Is it, is it self-worth? Is it... I don't know. I look at you now and I didn't know Nathan when he was 15. Yeah, sure. And so I guess I don't even know the true ascension or the version of the transformation. Yeah, yeah. I just know the last five years. Yeah. Yeah, I've shifted over the last five years, but I've shifted pretty dramatically in the last 20. Yeah. There's an anchor of being similar there the entire time, but, I can tell you that the reason that I, in my lived experience, speeding up has come from going together. Mm. Like I don't know whether it's Fear Factor, but certainly being in the room in the conversation. Mm. Right? Having people around me who were doing more than me, and at least being... Not having them close enough where I could be like, "What are you doing?" Mm-hmm. And them being like, I'm not doing anything you're not doing. What are you talking about?" Like, "I'm just doing the same stuff." Yeah. And I would be like, "Well, clearly not," right? The X factor here is not pure luck. Mm. Now, it did seem like it was a lot of luck. But being in those conversations for me was like being face to face. It was like the show Fear Factor where you have to go through the thing that's terrifying. Yeah, yeah. Being in the conversation with someone who was actively doing the thing that I was trying to do but couldn't- Mm maybe that was my fear factor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was literally in the room having conversations with people who were a- ahead of me and pulling away. Mm. And I was just like, "Ah." Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? "I am actively losing the race." Yeah. And so that's, that was terrifying to me. I think that was my fear factor, and I'd had to put myself in the room with people who were going faster than me, and go, I need to pick up the pace, and I also need to know what is mine to do." Mm. I mean, I, I always say that that is one of the dopest statements that you say consistently, right? "What is mine to do?" To be fair, Samantha gave that to me. That's a... Samantha, thank you for giving him that. Yeah. What is mine to do? Because it helped me recognize for myself that the thing that I did and how I did it and how I surrendered is not someone else's to do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere in the world maybe- Right but my call to action is not to... There were so many things set up in my life the right way for me to have surrendered that way. Yeah. And yeah, it was mine to do. Well, as we have this conversation, we represent something between 7 and 10% of the population I think. And so certainly we're not like every person isn't gonna come away with this, but it feels like every OneIC or visionary or natural crazy person. I say in love. And every Second like me, like this is the deal, and now we've even split it not just in core identity, but also in ways that your identity might have been sort of stepped on by life a little bit. Yeah. And that you might need to face your fear in that- Yeah in your particular way. So I'm gonna honor this and set it down right here just like this selfie stick. Peace.

Nathan 33:59

Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. I have a couple ways you can go deeper whether you resonated with the Second or the OneIC in this conversation. How To Be Second is a community of Seconds, people with this identity, and we're also experts at shepherding the journey of first-in-commands and Seconds from growing alone to going together, to growing together. Either way, you should join our email list at howtobesecond.com/email. If you resonated with the Second in this conversation, we have a ton of resources for you, like our community, our book, our guide system for Seconds, our assessment, coaching, meetups, even a professional development platform with job postings from our partner companies. If you resonated with the OneIC, we support your growing alone, going together, and growing together journey with coaching with a natural Second, our matchmaking-not-recruiting service where we help first-in-commands find their right-fit Second, and coaching for already connected first and Seconds to keep you growing together. Finally, if you're inspired by what we're doing here, you can support How To Be Second at howtobesecond.com/support. Thanks again. I'm looking forward to our next conversation.