Jag Sihra- Skies. Silks, and Storytelling

Jag Sihra shares her creative journey from childhood artist to founder of Studio Jag Sihra, exploring how her passion for colour theory and textile design evolved through education at prestigious art schools and corporate design roles before launching her own studio.

• Discovering a love for art at age 10 and recognizing how it brought contentment and focus
• Developing colour theory skills at St. Martin's, which became the foundation of her distinctive style
• Balancing corporate design work at British Airways and Virgin Atlantic while maintaining artistic vision
• Making the brave decision to decline a "dream job" offer to prioritize family and pursue independent creative work
• Creating the "Loft" social space design for Virgin Atlantic's A350 aircraft
• Designing art eggs for the Elephant Family charity, including a special collaboration with schoolchildren affected by Grenfell
• Establishing Studio Jag Siara with a focus on bespoke luxury gifts that celebrate brand heritage
• Viewing AI as a tool rather than a threat, believing human artisanship will always be valued for its soul and connection
• Launching a new collaboration with an Indian social enterprise to support artisan families while creating sustainable products

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Okay, so I can still hear you, which is look okay. You can hear me and Yeah, here we are. Both of us Here we are. Both of us doing our things. So good. But you where you had a focus, right? Obviously you had a focus. I mean it was I had a desire a desire. But you you did it the right way, if you like. Okay, there was a kind of adjunct where you you went into corporate, but I mean goldsmiths, St. Martin's, all of that, which is not to be sniffed at.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

The St. Martin's goal was probably the first, most important kind of um, I suppose, accomplishment, if you like. Just because I had that in my heart, you know, for me that was the pinnacle of art education. And I think we're always looking for sort of validation, aren't we, to a degree, whether that's right or wrong, but we do. So that was my first sort of a major milestone. Um, and and then that, yeah, first round of validation, if you like. I wouldn't say it gave me an awful lot, but I wouldn't say it built my confidence. I think that that kind of, as you say, it sort of burns in you, doesn't it, really? Mm-hmm. And and you can't kind of get to a point where you can't ignore it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

No, but you know, as far as Jag, Syrah, the creative. Yeah. Where where were you first becoming conscious that, okay, you know, this is this is this is super cool. I I want to do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, I just wanted to. I just knew that was that was the thing for me. Um, I was so young, sort of so young and unaware of really what I suppose what gut instinct actually means, but I just knew this made me really calm, happy, whether I was drawing, whether I was painting, whether I was creating something. It I knew I was content when I was doing it. And that was before I even knew that it was a career path or you know, that you could pursue it in that kind of formal manner. So, in that little video, I think, um, where I talk about I was 10. I mean, I literally was 10. I used to jump, I want to be an artist, I want to be an artist. So there must have been something in me that even at that point my consciousness wasn't aware of, but I knew that's what I wanted. And then as I as I grew up, I think you sort of get to a point where you think, actually, and I and I looked around me and I saw others, you know, I saw the creative pathways, if you like. I saw other people just, you know, um pursuing graphic design, for example, and I thought, oh, okay, there's something in this, you know, you can actually pursue a career through these various pathways. So that's when I remember at school, very often actually during A-level times, I used to skive off other lessons um to go and sit in the art room, and I would just draw for hours. You know, other people would skyve off to go and you know, day gig or something, but I would go and and paint in the art room. I really got friendly with the art teachers and and it it it was my happy place. So yeah, I spent a lot of time there. Um, and then I think it was around that time, it was when I joined foundation course, really, that that's when everything blossomed. You know, that tutors at at foundation level was like tear up everything you've ever been taught. Rades and art and you know, go and pursue, go and draw, go and draw, rip up bits of paper and draw on it. Don't draw on a square sheet of paper, you know, draw here, draw there. My f very first visit to the VA. Oh my goodness, it was just like it was an awakening. That's the only way I can describe it. Such a beautiful venue. Yeah, beautiful. It was an awakening. We know we were we were taken to the VA, we sat in the what in those days was the sculpture gallery, and we were told to start drawing uh perspective. Okay. Not really taught much more than that. Um, and I spent a week drawing, you know, statue of David, you know, looking down the gallery, drawing perspective. Absolutely felt like that time just slipped away without me even realizing. By the end of the week, I found myself in the Indian galleries, um, drawing replicas of of the Indian rugs, you know, for the Mughal period, um, from the Sikh ruling sort of period. Just just fell in love with the VA. And I I still say to people, the VA is my spiritual home. So if you want to scatter my ashes in that pond in steady sentence. Happy, happy days, you'll be happy with that.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Steady, steady. There's a while to go before any of that happens.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

They don't they might not want my ashes, but you know, I'd be happy there.

The Power of Colour Theory

SPEAKER_01 5:15

So it's interesting you mentioned, you know, the the cultural linkage even way back then. And I've I've looked at, you know, your website and the artifacts that you have curated and and presented, and I can see a lot of embellishment, right, from from your cultural heritage. Is that something that's really, really important for you and your work?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I think it's intrinsic and it's a thread, pardon the pun, that runs through your DNA, to be honest. Um I would step back one from that. I would say colour, actually. Colour is something that runs through my work, and I think the kind of boldness and the the pleasure of just celebrating colour, that's definitely cultural. And that was something I was doing again before I recognized I was doing it. But I remember my first week at St. Martin's, and again, our intro to everything, you know, whether it be perspective or, you know, colour theory or whatever. For me, I think the the students, uh, my friends around me were board stiff. You know, we we were told to literally get our little paints, our gouache paints, and mix the colour wheel. And we created entire sheets of uh, you know, uh little vignettes of colour by mixing opposites and contradictory colours and how to make browns and never to use a blackout of a tube, how to mix your own paint. For me, honestly, that was still one of the most pleasurable projects we ever did at St. Martin's. I absolutely fell in love with colour theory because I was doing it, and once again, this put put a label to it, this put a name to it, you know? There was something called colour theory, and I was lucky enough to be taught by um a guy called Garth, but I was taught by a guy who was a real advocate of colour theory. Okay. So he was really passionate about it. And and I remember the first set of paintings I produced after the first set of paintings I produced after the the colour theory project.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

The the learnings just flowed out into the into the painting. And I was kind of doing impressionism before I realised I was doing impressionism. I was captivated by the Impressionist movement, the fauxves, who were the wild beasts, translated, um, of the European art movement. And all of the the vehicle was colour, you know, literally. So for me, I think I will rest everything on colour first, and then the drawing flows from it. And I think you know uh it attracts me in other people's work, but it's kind of where I feel I do my best work as well. So that has to be cultural, you know. That I think um looking around me, and it was a diverse group of people, but um the celebration of colour, and I mean it was alluded to, maybe not in the most positive of ways, always, but this um kind of ethnic influence was always there. Um, we all know now, don't we, in the journey that we've taken that actually that was something to be celebrated and to be proud of, even if others at the time weren't necessarily celebrating it.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

No, I mean, you're absolutely right, of course. And we'll get into that bit, right? But what's already really, really evident to me, and because I've recently looked at, you know, I can't call it a body of work, but what you are presenting on your site. And there's such a layered complexity to it. It there really, really is. Listening to this aspect of your story, it's it's wonderful because I I've kind of got now the script behind the canvas.

Commercial Design vs. Personal Art

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's evolved, and I think that that can only come from, as you say, a sort of, if you like, half a lifetime's development. And everything you do in life contributes, doesn't it? Even if you don't know doing it at the time. But everything you learn contributes, especially to creative work, right? So all those years we had in uh corporate life, we were designing from the other side of the table, weren't we, if you like. So we were writing proofs, we were strategizing, weren't we? Writing proofs for other creatives, and I think that's really helped me in my work now because in my commercial work, I try and get under the skin of my client, whoever that client might be. And my business partnership office often says to me that you have a comedian-like quality. So although my thread of my work and maybe the core of my work is in the style of drawing, and I always go back to drawing as the very first, you know, sort of a germ of any any any project, any design idea, anything always starts with drawing. And that's where Jag Sierra comes into it, that's where my DNA is. And then, but after that, in order to please, and any designer, as opposed to the art side of things, any designer will agree that you have to please your client in the end. But I think what's happened over the years is I've managed to hone my ability to get under the skin of a client's dis you know, of a client and their desires and to make them happy, but using my my you know skills as a vehicle. That's a nice result, you know. And the layers show you're absolutely right. And then, you know, you in any given piece of work, you'll get you'll get an element of me through my drawing, and then the boldness of colour, and I'll sort of have that running through it. But then actually, it could be that the client really wants to dial up an anniversary or celebrate something. So I managed to kind of weave all that together, and I think that's what you've rightly said that there are layers to the work. It's it's not one-dimensional by any means, and it's not all about me, you know, it's really not all about me because that's not for me, that's not what a successful designer does. I think you can you can go and hold yourself up in your studio and paint for a day just for pleasure. Um, and that's the artist in you, and we all need to do that sometimes. We need to vent, right? Yes. But I think in order to design successfully and to call yourself successful as a designer, you do have to please the end client or customer or friend or whoever it happens to be, you know, that you're working, doing that piece of work for. Well, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

I mean, that that's something that I learned the hard way. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

In the balancing act. You know, we've all gone I've had my breakdowns, you know, gone and had had to make a cup of tea and lock myself in a room and scream for a while, but you can't you come out and you start again, you know, because the passion drives you. You know, you want to get it right as much as you want to get a piece of art right or or to fulfill that, you know, that um what's the word, the the bar that you've set for yourself. You also there's a real pleasure in pleasing somebody else with you know through your work, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I think that's that's that's absolutely spot on. Um I think what you might have done in the past that might have got you a gig, right? But then it's about okay, how do I keep that gig? And then if you look at exit strategy, the work that you're doing now, it's it's got to influence the opportunities for for tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah. So there there is a huge commercial reality.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

You know, and and I think we've all been mindful of that. You know, we've got to have the pipeline alive to keep it alive.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah. Uh and this is something that I I've found in my space, which is less about art is and creation, if you like, but more in the digital reserve um realm and um more about behavioral science and that kind of stuff. Where the younglings Yeah, they they they they seem to come out of college now, and okay, I love the ambition, I love the passion, I love all of that, but invariably they'll sit down with you and they'll say, Well, this Kine, this P.O. this whoever it is, they don't get it. I'm here to do this, and they don't want my ideas, and they they're very fixed. And how do I I said, listen, why are you here?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Right? What is your purpose? Yes, we have to find a balance, but um you you need to understand why. And if it's not you that's going to be utilized, yeah, why?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah. It's hand holding, isn't it? A big part of the skill set is hand holding. Um, and and I think both of us we have to cut our teeth on that skill. Uh, you know, back in the corporate days, I think you have to hand hold and you have to guide. Um it's a it's a soft skill that serves you well, I think. And if you can bring your client on side through those soft skills, they start trying we talked about it a lot the other day, they start trusting, right? So you've got to build um, but equally there has to be humility. I think what you've just said about, you know, younglings is that there's a you know uh you you have to remember humility because we don't all know everything. Yeah, we have the skills, have the skills and we've built them over a long time. And it, you know, I argue with people who say, well, just come and be what you ever you want to be. I don't, I don't buy into that. I do think you need to do an awful lot of learning before you can stand on a pedestal and um lecture or you know, kind of um uh profess to know to know enough to lead someone else to an end game, right? You need that. And actually, I mean, every every creative that we look up to will always say, you know, you don't stop learning. You don't stop learning. And if you do stop learning, then actually oh time to maybe step off because it's in the learning. And we all know that. I mean, teaching art has always given me, given me the the sort of energy. So I often go back to that, you know, whenever I can to do a little bit, whether it's a little bit of lecturing or whatever, but that energy that you get from that is all through learning. Every piece of work that you do, every project that you deliver, there's a massive learning every time, you know, every single time. And you need to start embracing that and looking forward to every project as another learning curve and another opportunity to get it right and do it better than last time. And you look back then, you I think even in just in terms of setting up the studio, I look back to when I start, you know, launched the studio and the skill, even the the sort of digital skills that, you know, I was a paper and pencils girl and paint, and but I knew I had to pick up digital skills and I, you know, pushed myself out of my comfort zone. And now I feel that I can actually meld the two together again to create that multi-layered effect that you talk about, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Um But listening to you now, you're still advocating for graft, for passion, for resilience.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

You cannot rest on your laurels, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

I I look at you, yeah, and I'm and I'm hearing about your story, and thank you so much for sharing it. And you just keep getting better and better and better. Goodness.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

That's so kind.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

But you do, and you are.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

That probably that probably stems from a desire to keep improving, I suppose, because I just think, you know, you look around you and there's you know, the people you admire, the artists you admire, you never quite feel that you're you're there yet. You know, you want to keep improving. So if that's uh sort of a what's the word? If if that's a tenet that I can live by, then happy me, because I'm living my dream, you know. And if I'm getting better while I'm doing it, gosh, that's just a bonus. But I'm getting to, you know, showcase my art, do drawings for people, paint for people, design for people, and they're loving it. And and that just has to be, you know, just the ultimate for me, you know. And then if it means you get you get more work, if it means you get to talk about your work, and if it means other people enjoy it, then then that's even better. But yeah, I think that's a byproduct, really. Getting better is a byproduct of feeling that desire that actually you can do better.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah, I I I think I think that maybe that's part cultural. Definitely it's in in our DNA. I think that's also maybe, and you know, tell me if I'm wrong, if that's in any way related to being first generation, second generation immigrant stock, right? Having to come like our parents did, and their parents before them, perhaps coming into a different country or moving from country to country, and then seeing that struggle, and then finding a space eventually that you yourself might feel comfortable in.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, I think I think we have to cre we I think we're all aware, aren't we, as as products of that sort of you know, immigrant chort of third-generation immigrant community, that that often those seats aren't just openly available at those tables. So we have to create them. And I think the sooner you learn that you have to create your own, you do it, get on with it. It's not going to be easy and it's not going to be made openly available. We get used to, I think very early on, we get used to not having the ease of just slipping into, you know, rooms where you know you're going to get opportunity. So you have to start making your own opportunities. And I think by that token, you you're always ready to prove yourself. You're never afraid to do that. But you're very aware that you need to show people the quality of what you can do before they even, you know, give you some space or time. So I'm not afraid of that. And I think often if you can be brave enough to do that, it will pretty much always lead to something else. But I don't think you can ever expect anything to be handed on a plate. But I don't think we ever have. No. We're so used to that now. It's it's an unspoken methodology, if you like, in in our community, isn't it? That you just have to go and be and do and crack on. And actually, if if you you know, if you can rely on on your own skills and if you can create your own spaces, and if someone wants to jump on board, happy days, but if not, you've just got to crack on.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

You just have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

No one's gonna do it for you. No one's going the no one's going to pat you on the back and say, Oh, haven't you done well? It's not about that. And I think you've got to stop waiting for that.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

And you are you are the one of the most perfect examples of that.

unknown 20:24

Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

It takes a while, wasn't it? It took a while. But you know, but you're doing it, you are doing it. No, it's it's great fun. I mean, you know, there's other aspects to life, aren't they, that sort of drive you? And I think for me, very much having my children when I did gave me a sense of purpose far bigger than my own. So I was always creative, and the burning desire was always there. And I talk a lot about the fact that I always wanted to do this, but actually, did I have the bravery? You know, I talked about it a lot, but and I worked in creative roles, which were really wonderful in themselves, don't get me wrong, but I knew it wasn't everything. And then the children came along, and I think I in having them, I discovered a purpose way bigger than myself.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah.

The Corporate Creative Journey

SPEAKER_00 21:10

And actually, that's when everything came together in terms of you know what, you've got to step out, you've got, you've got one chance to do, to not only follow your dream, but actually give them something to admire. Don't give them a mum that nearly did it, you know. Don't be that, you know, mum wanted to do this always, but she she she had a nice job, so she stayed there. Um, I didn't want that for them. I wanted them to see me fulfilled and living my dream. And if something comes of that for them, wonderful. But I know they've been a huge inspiration in my I suppose in giving me uh the the kind of ambition maybe that I was lacking in the past, um, to turn this into something more, you know. Kids, I mean I don't want to grandiose it by any means, but it's a kind of a legacy in my own simple way.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

I don't think anyone can understand that. Having children is and um I'm just thinking back to to my grandmother now, right? Having kids is is it is a gift. And she always used to say to me, One day, one day, you will have my great grandchildren. Right? And then she'd quickly shift into, well, hurry up, hurry up, because I'm not gonna be here forever. All of that kind of thing. But what she'd always say is that they are they are they are gods.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they are the signification of the Almighty, aren't they? They really are.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

You know, and I, you know, yeah, everyone has their challenges and all the rest of it. Yeah. So when when I exited from British Airways, you know, I had two rug rats and no job and just divorced and all of that kind of stuff. And you kind of go, you know, and you have these little curved balls that the universe throws at you, and what do you what do you do then? And I had lots of choices, thankfully, definitely didn't want to go into engineering. No, didn't want to go back there, that was done. But then having the opportunity at BA and in BA.com and introducing tooling at BA.com, whatever version of Adobe Photoshop it was, elements, I think, I can't remember. And then all of a sudden, with a brilliant, brilliant boss, Helen Liley, yeah, who just said, How can you do these things? I was like, I don't know, just do them because it's fun, right? And then we had less work going out to, I think it was some agency in Newcastle, because we were doing stuff in-house, but all of those things that occur and they're all part of this to interject there, but that's a really good example of what I've been going on about.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Um, is that you delivered before you were even asked to deliver. You showed them something that existed out of a passion that you had, you know. And you know, you you didn't do it out of I'm gonna get brownie points for this, I'm gonna get commended for this example. You just wanted to do it, you were you were enjoying it, and then you did it on top of your day job. And I think that's a perfect example of what we've talked about. It's not glamorous and it's not, you know, it's not what people necessarily want to hear, but you do have to do more before you get given an opportunity. It's it's simple as that. Stepping back into that conversation about your children, I remember uh those days, and I was desperate to have children and they hadn't come along yet. And your two were at that sort of uh primary school age then, and I just remember them being at the centre of your universe. Um and I just used to really admire that. I remember yes, and you'd been through a really hard time. So but the children, oh my god, they were at the heart of everything you did. And all of our conversation centered around that, really. So that's something to be remembered and admired, I think.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, I look I'm not the only single parent on the planet, and you know, unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's gonna change anytime soon. But, you know, I had mum, I had some solid friendships in there, but it was genuinely all about the Bubas, as I call them.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

And, you know, having a a reasonable boss, you know, Joel, where is he? You know, and she'd cover for me on occasion because I had to go and do something for them or what have you. Which never would have happened in engineering. Ever. But to do that um BA.com where we were. That was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

But you know, you were very supportive people there. I remember I was going through some of them were losses, were were, you know, yeah. And and you know, there was that still that element of it's a people place, you know, times change and you know, bottom lines become king and things like that. But it was a good place. And I think it's not until now, and I often talk to other, you know, uh uh I often talk to friends who have sort of left BA and gone on to do some really wonderful things. And the one thing we all get together and we do acknowledge is that we didn't actually realise how much we were learning. Um, and whether that be you know, soft skill, whether that be dealing with stakeholders, whether that be the you know, that ability to to to go and present to clients at a really high level, I think because we were stretched in that way, we weren't necessarily compensated for it, but I think we were stretched in that way. So actually now when you have to go and do it on your own steam, you don't actually feel that fear, you know, because actually you realize actually I've done this many times before. Your language changed, you know, your ability to communicate at certain levels. I think all of that we did through so many levels of having to deal with so many different tasks and wearing so many different hats. Because we all wore or did more than we were, if you like, tasked with or given credit for or side of our roles to do to do more at the time, maybe frustrations, but looking back, gosh, quite a learning really.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

A massive learning. I mean, I learnt aspects of what does a good line manager look like. Uh what and you're not conscious of it per se at the same time. Right, but on reflection, um, particularly in agency land where you've got some overbearing twap who's telling you, uh, yeah, this has to be done like last week, you're not going anywhere until this is done, we're paying a fortune for you, la la la la la la la. And just nonsense. Yeah, that's agency land, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:05

commercial work, isn't it, to a degree.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Which is kind of nuts. But we were at the I guess the original dot com boom, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Oh my goodness, yeah. It was gonna be the it was the next big thing and it was gonna change the world.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Right. So I mean, for for folks who don't realise this, everything, particularly the airline and travel sector, was was all call centre. Yeah. If you if you had a website at all, yeah, good luck. It it wasn't anything pretty. I don't think British Airways actually owned the domain name BA.com. I think it was Bell Atlantic originally, and then suddenly it became available and someone bought it, and that was great, but then the features and functionality were very, very limited, just ABA journeys. You know, like ABA for those who aren't familiar, you start somewhere, you go somewhere, and then you come back to the place that you started, right? Good ones, yeah. Showing our age. Well, you know, but the internet was yeah, just there.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

And we were I remember selecting the colour palette for the um for the GUI, as we used to call it in those days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And having great fun naming the um the colour palette, you know, things like puff powder yellow and things like that that just for fun.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I mean, then you know, all of that awesome work, which was so formative. Yeah. Right? And so you'd come from a very, very studious academic, but born out of your own creativity. Then was there a space in between the academia and BA? Just I guess chronolog chronologically.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah. Um, so I did my I entered St. Martin's and did a BA on Nose Textile Design, which was wonderful. Then I did a year of teacher training fun, funnily enough, and I don't get often get to talk about that part. Of it, but that was again very stretching and really interesting. And I I actually took on the teacher training thinking just in case, you know. Um I was offered a job. PGS E is that the is that yeah, PGC, so postgraduate in education, in art and design. But before I finished it, I was offered a job. Um, and again, I was reluctant. I felt, oh my goodness, I'm so young, and in you know, do I really want and I knew I always knew I didn't want to be stuck in teaching. I know that's a maybe I didn't sort of negativise it, but it's true. And I did, so I took it on, took the job, and it was a wonderful selective Sikh form college. And oh my goodness, the students were so talented and they were painting better than I, you know, I could. They were fantastic, so that was really good. But uh again, I I just knew there was more to do at that point. So then I did about a year and a half of teaching, bit of acting, head of department, which was again a nice endorsement. Um, and I left to do a master's at Goldsmiths, right? Which was just one of the most fantastic of creative expression years that you could ever ask for. There were no limits. It was a fine art-based sort of textile master's, which meant that you could just explore. And there was no it was a bit different to St. Martin's St. Martin's in that there were there was no sort of, you know, we're going to showcase you at the end of this. It was just all about you, and I had the best fun. I really explored my inherent creativity in a in a very deep way. Left Goldsmiths, and actually, that gap that you're talking about was just pavement pounding very early on. I was knocking on doors because I I was at that point, then I went in as a sort of create uh freelance designer. So knocked on the doors of the likes of Liberty and actually got a mini collection into Liberty quite early on. So I was quite pleased with myself. It was under the Liberty label, and I was still quite green, you know, commercially. So I found myself doing a lot in the hope, you know, of more work. And as I say, you're not you're not necessarily very uh aware at that point of of um being taken advantage of. Um, but anyway, the promise was that there'd be a second collection coming, but under my own label. So I was very excited for something like that so early on. Um, but then actually, I think my CV went in on the Friday and on the Monday, Liberty were taken over, one of their very many takeovers, but they were taken over by a Japanese consortium, so the whole team was essentially disbanded. And that was quite an early learning of the kind of instability of creative life, if you like, and create even jobs in in the creative fields, and I thought, oh god, this is interesting. Um, so yeah, but I did get some really interesting projects. I did uniform design for the Radisson Hotel group. They didn't really have an identity then of any kind. They were down on bathroad then. So I was introduced to Jasmine the thing's wife at the time, and I did uh I pulled together a bit of a visual identity and just did a very simple uniform sort of uh set for them. And I that that went that rolled out, then it went into production, which was really nice. So did some bits and pieces, and I was just feeling a little bit unstable with the whole thing, and and actually it was slight serendipity, if you like. Uh I'd moved to West London with my husband, and you know, we were just sort of talking about sort of the amount of people that worked in British Airways that lived in West London.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

And um, I just got a bit curious, and I was had been watching news excerpts about the new visual identity BA changing, it's kind of um creative the whole utopia identity was launching then. Anyway, I just sort of did a bit of digging and realized they there was an in in-house design team. And that's when I thought, okay, that would be really fun. So just applied for the graduate scheme. Right. And not expecting very much. And it was convoluted in that I got onto the graduate programme um and actually spent a few years doing lots of things around the company, including BA.com, before I actually entered the actual design management team, which is where I was delivered all the lovely fun interiors and uh But that was great.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

I mean, I can still re God, it's just come back to me. I used farting around doing what I know what even that took a while, you know.

Creating Studio Jag Sihra

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Even to get to the right department and do the right job within BA to a while, I had to be really sort of patient.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

No, but I I do like, you know, I didn't even know we'd call them scamps. I just do some nonsense, right? And I I remember taking laptops over and sticking them under your nose and saying, What do you think of this? Is this alright or not? And just having you around to like, you know, just brainstorm with or get that critique that first hand, because I we all knew Jag, and we all knew Jag was the cr official creative person, right? Um, and lovely, always so approachable, always so polite, well-mannered, respected, um, and it was just so easy for you know, a half-wit like me who came from engineering, got into systems, and now he's farting around in, you know, making banners and um whatever other artifacts and um I think well not think I know, you know, but just the inherent creative, um a sort of uh what's the word?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Um a closet creative, I used to call you, because um I think that's how we bonded, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Um those creative conversations almost energized us. Of course, because it was such a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

You know, and then just to have you and a couple of other people just kind of we were having fun. We were just kind of but you you were my you know um closet mentor. I'd I'd be yeah, if Jack thinks this is good, then it's gotta be I'm I'm heading in the right direction. Because I didn't have that academic background that you did. I was just doing things and you know, like much and my music at the time was improvisation. And if somebody liked it, then great. If they didn't, yeah, that's fine as well. But I didn't have that personal affinity with the work that I had much, much later on. You know, so BA was wonderful and that was great, but then you went you went to Virgin, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yes, I did. I mean, um we left. I thank the Lord, fell pregnant with the triplets. Yay! And that was uh 2015. That's uh unfortunately it was very ill during the pregnancy, so I kind of sort of sloped off, really. You know, went off but everybody's wondering, where's Jack on at BA, you know? I think you're entitled, to be fair. I was underground, just underground, just with terrible sickness. So, and uh and while I was on and and then it was wonderful actually. I think it was one of my colleagues who at a team meeting finally announced that um by the way, Jag's um had a baby. Oh, actually, Jags had triplets. Yeah, it became quite good news at BA, which was really nice to hear on the other side. And then I think during maternity, um, the opportunity to leave BA came up. You know, because there were rounds of severance going on, and obviously I I grabbed it with both hands because it would give me more time with the boys to think about things. And I mean, as soon as they came, they were the center of the universe and they always have been ever since. So even till this day, I will pick things that work around them, you know. Of course. It means working into the night sometimes and it means working early hours, but that's what I will I will I never wanted to look back and think, okay, I took that ahead of them. So I'm telling you this for a reason, because I was on maternity, took the severance, which was wonderful, and had a blissful couple of years with the boys at home without thinking about too much else. Playing around with ideas, but not much else. And then I was sort of tapped on the shoulder about Virgin, and a very similar job came up at Virgin as design manager there. And you will know that there are very few design jobs like this in the whole of the country because there are only two airlines.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Next to no.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

On paper, it was written for me. Um, and they were about to deliver their A350s, they'd just taken charge of A350s and they were re-redesigning their interior completely. Right. And I was really reluctant, and I'd had a couple of calls from from Ettie had um the Middle East. I think a few of us had actually because there was a bit of a cull at the time at BA, so a few of us were approaching the Middle East airlines, and I just culled those conversations very early on because at the time I said, no, I don't, you know, I don't want to have this conversation because I don't want to be tempted because I've got these lovely little babies and that that they are my world. Bubas. And then when Virgin came along, it was my mum. My mother actually said she encouraged me to do it. Um, she said, take it on, because whilst you're in this lovely bubble, you know, it's not forever, and you haven't spent all those years building skills to drop them now. So she's a wise woman, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Wise mums.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Wise mums. Um, so I did. I think I always knew it was going to be a bit of a struggle just in terms of logistics. But I had the most wonderful conversation with again one of the most wonderful bosses. I think there's it's really important to note and acknowledge that whenever good leaps happen in life, especially in careers, there's always a wonderful person at the base of that. And Jeremy Brown, he interviewed me over the phone actually. We had a chat over the phone. I was in my garden, and one of the first things I said to him was, Well, you know, I'm just going to need so much flexibility because of these babies. And he's like, Well, you know, do what work from where you want, just deliver my thing. So um, I did. I joined I joined Virgin. I was I inherited a team. Well done, Mr. Brown. Yeah, hadn't been a structure for a while. It was a wonderful project. So in a nutshell, ship-shaped everything and brought in a wonderful agency called Factory Design, and we started playing around with ideas for interiors because at the time Virgin were ready to give up their bar on board, which is what they were famous for. And we were looking to sort of coin essentially a new space, new public space on board the aircraft where people could gather.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Sorry to interrupt, Jack. Just just to be clear for everyone who might be listening, this isn't just soft furnishings. We're talking about the entire cabin experience. From scratch. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Oh, it was it was fabulous. I mean, you know, where in BA we tended to work on as I mean, we had some wonderful projects working on BA first, working on, you know, working with the likes of Anja Heimarch, working with amazing designers and design agencies. But here I was given this kind of blank slate and worked with these wonderful guys at Factory Design. And we coined a brand new space on board. Absolutely. We strategized, we created experiences. I worked with engineering, always had an affinity for engineers and um worked really closely. And yeah, we we created essentially we created the loft on board. The loft became the new sort of social space on board, the 850s at Virgin. So that felt really good. So long brands. Virgin was a buzz because it was small enough there for people to sort of give you leeway to actually, you know, act on your instincts. And I think that that really grew my confidence. But about a year or so into it, I think I was getting uh physically a little bit burnt out just from the logistics of getting there, even though there was lots of flexibility. And I felt myself thinking, you know, I always said babies first, and this is getting, you know, more intense. So once that was delivered, again there was a bit of a restructure going on at Virgin. I was actually offered what would have been my dream job before Bubba's. And that was to take on, I was already head of um air, design in the air, sorry, aircraft design, and I was offered the job of ground, air, lounges, everything. So essentially, head of design. I was handed it on a plate, and um, as I said, back in the day would have been at the ultimate dream, it would have been the pinnacle for me. But I just knew in my heart of hearts that if I took it on, I'd want to do it heart and soul, and that wasn't going to work with the children, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

That would have been in full jag.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Full jag. Would have been full jag, and full jag needed to be with the Bubbers first.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Um to this day, I actually remember sitting next to this MacBook and pressing the button, declining the role, the offer. And I remember being on the phone to my now business partner, Sue, saying, Sue, I'm about to decline. I'm about to decline. And I did it. And actually, I was so scared to do it. But once I didn't- I'm feeling scared now. So scared, scared of myself in the am I gonna regret this? This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and it's probably something you would have died for at BA, you know? And yes, in terms of a creative role within any organization where you'd have oversight of every touch point, every customer touch point, and you you'd actually see it delivered because it was an organization that did thrive on delivery, you know. Yeah, very much so. It was scary, it was scary, but I can hand on heart tell you I never regretted that decision because of where I am now. Um, and that kind of spiritual kind of guide or whatever you want to call it, it it I knew that if I put the children at the heart of everything, things would be okay. And actually, very quickly, I got some consultancy roles. Um, probably within the next week or so, actually, I was offered some consultancy for an aviation supply company. So, doing actually um supplying design into airlines. So I worked for a company called Watermark, did some contracts for them with some really funky airlines, actually, which was good. Um, and actually went back into Virgin, went back into V uh VA as a supplier, which was interesting. That's but again, got to be creative from the other side of the table, you know, learned what it was like to be that person that wasn't, you know, called back for like three weeks when you're waiting on a decision from stakeholder.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Right, those conversations with those conversations. Whoever it was who was okay, maybe they were aware of your history, your prominence, maybe not. But then, okay, so you're a supplier and this is what we need. And you you're I'm assuming here, but you're sitting there thinking, I was in your chair not that long ago.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Absolutely not so long ago. And it was a great asset to the supplier because they they had my head, my brain. I literally could brain dump what the airline was thinking. And actually, even now, I still do creative projects for a supplier agency whenever they want art and design for their pictures or design creative, sort of creative or design strategy for gifting products, whatever. I still work with them, which is really nice actually. And without question, we always start by using a a bit of a Jag brain dump. You know, what would jag sitting on the other side of the table want from this brief? You know? What's your proposal?

SPEAKER_01 45:53

You've you've earned that credibility. You've earned that gravitas.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

It's amazing to use it actually. It's really nice to be able to use it.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Well, yeah, but you don't take it for granted. And what I'm hearing is you're still so respectful to that process.

The Elephant Family Charity

SPEAKER_00 46:12

You have to be. You have to be, because we know we know from the other side, don't we? We we and even today, you know, if I'm sitting here waiting on a call from a from a client, thinking, Oh, we haven't heard, have we, have we won this pitch, have we done this? You sort of step back and you think, well, I remember how many loops we used to have to, you know, jump through, loops we had to jump through to get a get an answer from some senior person sitting in their office. Sometimes not so. It gives you that insight, yeah, it gives you that insight to know it's actually often not personal. People are just trying to do their day job and a ton of other, you know, other jobs to boot. But um, yeah, back to Virgin. It was it was a wrench to sort of give it up, but equally it was the beginning of everything, really, I think. And then after those couple of contracts, COVID hit, and actually what one really pivotal moment for me was uh securing um uh a piece of work to deliver a line of silk uh scarves um for a luxury fragrance house called Beaudeser. I was gonna bring them up because you know, whilst the product development side of things and product design was really interesting, of course, my heart and soul is all about textile design. So when someone comes along and says, yes, design a line of silk scars for luxury fragrance, I mean, you know, come true. So um just pre-COVID, I managed to design the entire collection, create the strategy for it, design the collection, got our work in lovely, you know, beautiful. I mean, they were quite prolific in Harida anyway, but to have my sketches showcased in the window. That felt good, you know, all of that. And then the line was ready, pretty much ready. Then we did a bit of a soft launch on the website. The core customer for that fragrance line is in the Middle East and and still is. But then COVID hit, so the line was just put on hold for a little while whilst COVID did its thing. I was kept on, which was wonderful, really nice for me. But what that mean meant was that I had income and I didn't really need to do anything for anyone. So I thought, and it was actually my lovely husband who said, you know, you're doing this for other people and you keep doing it for other people. When are you going to do it for yourself? You know, when are you finally going to drop a pen and do it for yourself? By this time, I had what was really nice was I'd I'd I'd through that project, I'd garnered a sense of the whole cycle of production as well, in terms of developing my art, drawing the art, developing the designs, and then actually getting them manufactured.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

So this whole 360 aspect of how your career has developed, right? Yeah. Again, it's going back to that theme.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Learning. You're constantly constantly trying, okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Well, I need to deliver this, but what are the skills, what are the skill gaps that I have that I need to fill in order to deliver? Okay, so let's go and find some time to upskill. You know, I'm I still up until last year, I was still nervous about InDesign, would you believe? But I upskilled and suddenly my presentations and I've done some brand deliverables for people, and just that little tiny upskill to InDesign has elevated my presentations to another level, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

I mean, I'm I'm I've mentioned this in uh on other episodes of of Dubai. It's like I'm still flabbergasted that people who don't have craft legacy, who can't do, yeah, get into leadership positions, and they're supposed to be looking after those who can do, right? What's what's your take on that? Do you have a take on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Yes, absolutely. I mean, um we lived it, didn't we? We lived it. We lived having to go and present all products or beautiful pieces of work that we'd put our heart and soul into and using all this lovely knowledge that we've discussed, and you'd have to go and present it to somebody who was two or three notches above you because that's corporate life and that's the corporate structure, and then being told, oh, oh, it's not a colour I usually like, you know, oh don't fancy that one. And it could be honestly, you you I've heard things like that said, and yeah, it's really difficult. It's really difficult to swallow. It's the nature of the corporate life, unfortunately, and there's nothing you we all have our we all have, we know what we feel about it. I think it's terribly sad, but because certainly design is often an adjunct, isn't it, in in in corporate structures. So, and also I find generally, I always say this that design is so subjective, right? So, unless you've got complete ownership of of a design project, you're never going to be able to just deliver what you really want to deliver because it goes through so many iterations, it goes through so much feedback for the incorporate structure. People feedback for the sake of feeding back. They don't even know what they're they're critiquing. One hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Someone's put them on a panel, they're on you know, an email of an email or a list of things.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

They want to feel useful. They want to feel that they've contributed, you know. You know, decision by consensus. To answer your question, my take on it is that's corporate life. And that's why you you need to jump out and do it for yourself. Because then that is the nearest you're going to get to a complete cycle of my germ of an idea, my evolution of the idea, my finished design, and then here you are, lovely customer. There you go. But I'll just caveat that because even that client, as you'll know, I'm sure you've experienced this. You know, you you'll have nights where you'll just cry because you've created something wonderful that fits their brief perfectly, and uh they'll come back and say, actually, I think it was better if we, you know, when we did it last year and we did it like this. So things like that will happen. Customer is always king when it comes to commercial design. You have to suck it up. But doing it for yourself means that at least you have you're driven by your passion and to get from your seed to get to the customer just through you, that's worthwhile, you know. And I think we we were close at Virgin, I think, of all of the places. We were close there, and it was really satisfying. And I think I was lucky enough to work with such wonder you talk about humble but brilliant people, the guys at factory design. Brilliant. I mean, they were the guys that were behind interiors of Concord, you know, that's how long they'd been working. But they'd their they'd kept their um agency small and perfectly formed, and they're still really respected. So learning from those guys, you know, people like that was really fortunate. And I'm still friends with them today. So that was really good. But yeah, I think pressing the button on Virgin and then just launching straight in and then doing those, you know, doing those uh working through those contracts was really a nice transition because it halfway house between going out completely on my own and then COVID hit and post-COVID and during COVID, I opened um Studio Jack Sarah and I started with the line of scarves, my eponymous collection. Because that I couldn't think of where else to start. And I thought, well, you know, I love silk, always have, and I love printing on silk, and I love, you know, art and art of the silk is a perfect combination to showcase what I do. But again, that was what four and a half years ago now, and um things have evolved so much. But talking of what you've just said about full circle moments, there are so many because through working with Sue, who's my project director, and she actually used to work for supply into British Airways when I was design manager there. So we sort of struck up a very good, good friendship. And um, she's got the now that I think I do lack a little bit, which is the project, you know, keeping a project management schedule, schedules, numbers, all of that, you know, creative people don't like that stuff. So I'm so lucky to have her because she is a brilliant project manager.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

I think that's one of the reasons why I get um a lot of people get irritated with me, because they see the interesting haircut and they think, okay, he's a creative, but then they don't know that I'm a stupidly qualified avionic test systems engineer and I know the tech.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

You have to have skill. But you in order to deliver the big projects, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And build the trust, you know. It's it's lovely presenting beautiful things to people, but if you can't deliver against their brief, then what good is it to them? You know, they've got they've got pressure, they've got commercial targets to hit, they've got customers to please.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

But this whole holistic view, yeah, right, which clearly you have, because you've had the opportunity, and if the opportunity wasn't there, definitely it sounds to me that you created the opportunities. You've said no. You have to politely, professionally, and you've gone off and you've done what you felt was right for you at that time. And that's you spoke about bravery. That's bravery, that's integrity, that's you know, not being some kind of stuck up whatever. It's I can do this, this is the space I want to be in, and okay, we're we're we're gonna see where this goes.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

I remember so I got a piece, the the first kind of I suppose, sort of um what's the word? Gravitas piece of the first gravitas contract I got was with um the Royal Automobile Club in London. It was a small piece of work, but really put us on the map in some respects. And and they commissioned me to do to design a scarf based on their pool room, which is if you're the great and the good, you're a member of the Royal Automobile Club. There's a beautiful pool room with a mosaic, an Egyptian mosaic uh theme in there. So I sort of did that for them, and that was really nice, and that really started getting people to think actually she can work to a brief. And then with Cunard, I think I pitched for an entire year before I got a chance to really go in and and and have a go at that. So it took a year of knocking on that door to say, okay, give it give me a chance, I can do I can do big gifts for you. I can do it all.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

That passion, that wanting, that desire to get in there and still get in there, and not just sit around and rest on your laurels. But no, I I think I can add value there and that perseverance.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

That's awesome! And then what happens, I think, is the points of strength sort of surface organically. So the reason I'm saying that is what was really interesting was I started off with this collection of scarves, thinking I'm going to do direct a customer. I'll probably the collection will probably evolve into other pieces like garments or whatever, and that's where I'll be. But actually, and I think I told we were talking about this the other day, what really started growing based on my skill set and Sue's skill set and our network, networks are so important because the trust is there. You know, we can talk, you and I, because the trust is there because we've known each other forever. Uh, and we've seen each other in action, you know, in very difficult environments back at back at British Airways, for example. So I think um networks are huge, and I found so many full circle moments. And I think the business is kind of it kind of took on its its uh its own life and grew in that other direction that I didn't expect. So actually now business to business and selling into clients or doing bespoke pro I think bespoke projects are what has has really captivated a lot of our clients because what I've now come to realise, and Sue said this to me, and I and I found it hard to believe because you don't you go all slug about it, but she was like she used to keep saying, you know, you are at the center of this and you don't realize that it's it's your art that people are interested in. And um, when I started to believe that, actually, the product that we design is almost a vehicle. The selling point, the USP, is the bespoke art, and now we're setting our stall on that, really. So every the idea is to create corporate gifts, merchandise, customer gifts, developed on materials that can stand the test of time and not go into landfill and pollute the oceans if possible. Done in a, you know, create something that wants people want to keep and cherish. You know, we've all seen back in British Airways, for example, perfect example, by the end of developing customer gifts for for premium cabins for first, for example, how many times did we hear our customers are just leaving their product on the seat? You know, they're not even taking it anymore because it had been dumbed down to a point where it was essentially tat. You know, people didn't want it in their wardrobes anymore or cupboards or whatever. I mean, I can recall that learning, that learning has been huge for us.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Exclusivity, that quality, that level of curation. They become historical artifacts. So I can recall, you know, those awesome in-flight bags and I can see. Yeah. And I would, you know, on eBay or whatever. And sometimes people arguing over and fighting over.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

And it was that was the genius of Anja Heimarch. And that was her vision. You know, she's one of my definitely one of my heroes. Um, and she you can learn a lot from people like her. But all those learnings we've taken into the business, and we try and approach our clients and and talk about that and say, first of all, let's get under the skin of your DNA. Let's really celebrate your brand, if it is a white label piece. And then again, that chameleon like quality in terms of being able to draw that out through my art and drawing. And then try and use substrates and materials that, you know, aren't going to necessarily damage where you can. And then lastly, create a product that's useful, you know, and if they don't want to keep it themselves, I'll give it to someone or you know, all of that. So that's really evolved really nicely, I think, over the last couple of years. And that's where we see we'd like to sort of build our sort of client base or my client base. And then and then through that, through Jag Zera, having had these sort of charitable partnerships evolve has been so satisfying and energizing in a way that nothing else can compete with, really. So the elephant charity family. I was taking my yeah, now fiance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

Yay, lovely restaurant in town, and we wandered past this. We didn't know what it was. It was one of those eggs, right? And I said, Yeah, my mate Jag did one of them. And my lovely days, I'm Jag? Come on. It was a tell story kind of thing. And tell us about that. How did that come into play?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

So I had done, I I was sort of have a friend, friends, lots of friends, obviously BA. Um, one of my dear friends, she's prolific in philanthropy. She won't mind me mentioning her, Maggie Draco. And when she left BA, she really picked up on her charitable work and she she supports many causes because she used to run the gold guest list at British Airways, and one of her passions is philanthropy. And she is on the board of the British Asian Trust, who have an offshoot called the Elephant Family. The Elephant Family is a charity that was essentially set up by Mark Shand, the brother of Camilla. He travelled in India back in the day and fell in love not only with India, but fell in love with an elephant actually called Tara. And Tara was an elephant who had been abused, as a lot of elephants were in those days in times of overworked and you know, on her sort of last legs. He he pretty much nursed her, but in the process fell for her. And he wrote a book called Um Travels with My Elephant. And he set up the elephant charity dedicated to the conservation, initially more to sort of supporting elephants that had been sort of, you know, overworked and abused in their lifetimes. But actually, the charity grew to what is now a conservation charity across India, Asia. And um coexistence now has become, you know, the broader theme. So it's about teaching village villagers, humans, and animals to coexist in a way that it's beneficial to both, because of course, over time, you know, roads were cut into habitats where they shouldn't be. I mean, it's a long story, but essentially it's a wonderful charity. Now, the tragedy of it is that he passed away in an accident about 10 years ago, actually, whilst it was a big egg hunt in New York, but the legacy continues. And uh, I think he because of the sort of royal connection, it's a charity that's well supported as well. But what they do really beautifully, and where I come into it, convoluted way of telling you this, but where I come into it is that um I'd done some art for Maggie and I'd done some creative work for her, and she got to know me and my work a bit better than back in the day. And she endorsed me, and I was invited uh to design one of these eggs. So they have various art, public art projects. Sometimes it's a charitable ball. Every other year at the moment, it's it's a big egg hunt. Other times it's a tuk-tuk race across Asia. But they it there's always a lovely collaboration with artists. Um I was thrilled because the likes of artists that they've worked with in the past and that they that are essentially patrons are the likes of Sabias Archi, Tracy Yeming, all of these wonderful names. They've all kind of been a part of this journey. So I was thrilled. I thought, gosh, I'm not gonna turn this down. I'll I will make time. You just give me the egg.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

I saw I saw some footage, I couldn't even to my shame, I can't tell you where I saw it from.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

But you were on all fours and just doing your thing with this egg. And what what struck me was the intensity, just the intensity of your focus, right? And in in in just doing that.

Artisan Value in an AI World

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

And I saw as what another one of those meditation, meditation, and also this thing that I was saying to you before that what's even one more wonderful about doing the work with them is that they uh they celebrate everything I do for the sake of my art. So this is the one space where I'm not working to somebody else's DNA or delivering, much as that's pleasurable and good in other ways. This is me. They just want they want me to be free to celebrate myself and my my way of working and however that evolves. There's a two parts to the egg hunt, actually. It was wonderful. So I was invited to do the first egg, which of course was wonderful. So I had my little, I'd been brewing these themes already, but then I got a call and what the elephant family, because they obviously have uh partners all across the arts and and you know, various brands. Um, and I got a call saying that my portfolio had been shared with the National Theatre and they really loved they'd love to collaborate on an egg. So I was pushed for time by this stage, really pushed for time, but I could not say no. And the reason I couldn't say no was because there was another layer to this where the project was in conjunction with um a school under Grenfell uh in London. And the idea was to work on their outreach program with the children to create an egg for the National Theatre uh based on play that was at the time, and that's where my obviously spoke to my heart, you can imagine, right, at the deepest level, and it was rushed and it I didn't have very much time, but I just thought, okay, how am I gonna do this? Um, and I just formulated the workshop. Um, I just conducted the workshop. I thought, whether the egg comes in time, I don't I don't care, I've got to do this workshop because I didn't want to let these children down. And I kid you not, it was one of the most pleasurable two hours creatively that I've had in recent times because it looked like it. Their eyes were sparkling by the end of it, you know, the beginning of the workshop, it was a typical art lesson, you know, this woman's took up, you know, what we're gonna do. And I just remembered why I loved teaching so much because by the end of it, they were, you know, they were cutting out shapes and they were drawing symbols from the play, and you know, I I made sure they stood up and talked about their work. And before the end of it, they were all, can I talk, miss? Can I talk? Can I tell you what I've done? So one thing I knew was that this egg had to be about them. And again, channeling that chameleon, like commercial brief approach to things, I thought, how do I depict to the naivety and the the innocence of their work on my egg? So I thought, well, you translate what they've done. So I laid out all of their sketches, their little cutouts, their drawings, and I just thought, okay, throw them on the egg. And that's what I did. So that was an homage to them. And it was, yeah, it makes me well up a bit actually, because it was uh a real personal achievement. Yeah, and then that sort of work I'd love to do more of as well. So time permitting, you know. Um, hopefully we'll do more bits and pieces like that. But that was a lovely thing, and and again, that's another sort of that one is another part that I can't give up now, you know, as as much as I want to sort of. I need to earn money, need to feed the bubbles. Don't want to give up on that charitable, charitable work because it also speaks to me. They celebrate art, but the art feeds the conservation, and the conservation is what we need for our children. So kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

Brilliant, brilliant, again, circles, circles everywhere. I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. Right? We've got this wonderful thing, genuinely, it is a wonderful thing, called artificial intelligence. And it's a question that I've broached with pretty much everyone who I'm speaking to. There's a lot of ambiguity with it, because it is developing. But with ambiguity, if there's too much ambiguity, then you move into the realms of anxiety, which is one aspect of a new technology paradigm and everything that that brings. But an awful lot of my peers um and just design folks, broadly speaking, you know, we're all gonna be out of a job, apparently, right? Uh the robots are gonna take over, creativity's just not going to exist. Where's Jagzera's brilliant, brilliant brain in that space?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Yeah, I I mean, maybe it's coming at it from a naive point of view, I don't know, because yeah, I need to educate myself more on it, I think. But I think it's not a thing to be afraid of, honestly. I think embrace what you can and and actually certainly when you're running a creative business, embrace aspects of it that speed up things, quite honestly. When you're doing a paragraph to describe something in in beautiful language, you know, use a bit of bit of uh narrative because I don't want to waste five hours of my time trying to duck my brain and write this creative flow. What I've seen in terms of the actual physical output of the art from AI at the moment, I don't think is of a high quality. So I don't feel threatened by that. The other thing I've noticed is that as much as as fast as that is evolving, people are still yearning, and and maybe more so because of it, people are yearning for the artisan. Because what you'll always find is in anything that's AI generated, it does lack soul. And that's not a tangible thing, but it's it's not tangible, it's not palpable, but you know something's missing, you know. Feel it. So you feel it. You feel it. You might not even be able to describe it in words, but I think people are craving connection, soul, and that je ne soy quoi that runs through the fingers of every artist, n artisan, right? I think there'll be enough space for everything and everyone. We just gotta keep following our passion. We've come this far. Why give up now?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Very, very eloquently put. I think you're right. I think the tech is providing speed, right? Not velocity, as the engineering part of my brain says. Speed is there, but I don't think anyone's got a handle on direction. And then when you combine both of those, yeah, you're going very quickly, but then to what end? And personalization, um automation, which you've touched on, fine. I get that. That that's as long as the data is accurate, yeah, then what is automated should be fine, should be fine. Um, but what happens to personalization? What happens to artisans? Because like it or not, human beings are we've got this inbuilt bias. And look, if you go into retail banking, if you go to an airline, if you go to, you know, any online we're selling you something, they all, branding aside and assets aside, they all are using the same grid frameworks.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

Right? The fact that the the what am I trying to say? The design systems invariably behave exactly the same. And the personalization is where the real value comes into play. And so this the bias that I was alluding to is if I see something now, digital or otherwise, I've actually, once I've got over myself and oh my god, that's amazing. The first question that comes into my little brain is Did a human do that? Or did anything? Yeah. All of a sudden I'm not appreciating it for what it is, I'm I'm challenging it, I'm questioning it. I want to know does that have a soul?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

Is that inherent human desire for connection, isn't that? Yes. And ultimately we we connect to other human beings before we connect to anything else. Um let's put it back in context. I mean, when I graduated, graphic design was still conducted on massive tables with fine liners and uh rulers. And within years, all of that became defunct because digital, you know, the adobes of the world steamed along. So everything's evolved, but the creativity behind those tools still needs to be there. So whether you draw with a pencil or whether you draw with a mouse, you know, the soul comes through because there's a human at the end of it. Um and I think with AI, if we learn to utilize it and and for want of a m you know, a better word, sort of control it to our own end, then great. But don't let it usurp because people will start noticing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

I think people already have started to notice. I even big corporates.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

Yeah, that was interesting that you were talking about that the other day. There's also already that sort of, you know, uh are you just fobbing us off with a bit, you know, uh a a quick, you know, prompt, result of a prompt, or is this something that actually is worth the money that we've paid you? You know, talking about it in purely commercial terms, you're we're all gonna have to keep proving ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

That whole cycle, I don't think, is gonna go away. I think it's gonna get more aggressive. I think artisans like you are gonna be so much in demand. Hope so. Well, I yeah. There's there's thankfully, thankfully, there's there's there's only one Jag Sierra, right? And I I say that in a very, very almost in a as a homage. Right, because what you do, what you represent, it's incredible. I'm so lucky that I was able to slugging now.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

I'm I'm I'm melting like a little slug.

The Future of Design Thinking

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

Behave. You know, uh just some you know, idiot really, who's playing with Photoshop elements because I could and I enjoyed it. And having someone of your even then stature to kind of validate what I was doing, who has that now? It's it's so important, it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Kindred spirits, I mean, you know, in the spirit that we've just spoken about, souls connect and you recognize that in each other. Creative spirits recognize each other always.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:06

People process technology in that order.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:09

A number of times I've heard people say, Well, I know nothing about design. And you know, we've even sat round a table, round many tables, where you've got people who are aggressively against design, actually. Because their their task is to maybe deliver something at its cheapest, fastest, and just get it out there as quickly as possible. And design was often, could often be seen as a bit of a hindrance. So you had some very aggressive anti-design people to deal with. Um, and I some of the most pleasurable times back in corporate life was when actually you soften those people through I don't want to be patronized and say through education, but just to remind them that actually we can work together. You can still deliver at your pace. Design doesn't cost that much if you do it well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

Well, it actually saves money.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

Saves money, yeah. We, you know, we are so used to delivering against tight budgets until this day I have to deliver against tight budgets, and that's exactly where design comes in. So design is your enemy, and exactly that sitting around the table with engineers who actually eventually are on side and you're talking, you know, Tedlar samples with them, or wallpaper samples, or material samples, and they're giving their opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

I mean Can this be done? Can't it be done? The whole kind of technology.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

Fantastic, but enjoying it, really enjoying it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:35

I mean, one metaphor that I use quite a bit is some ecosystems, they're just used to I call it bairruti. You know what bairruti is, right? So, because you're Punjabi and you're, you know, um, but for everyone else, it's stale bread. And organizations are so used to self-sustaining on stale bread, and then design comes along, and we've got this thing called pizza. And that whole transition, and I've seen it, I've been really, really lucky that I saw the germs of that starting at Shell, where so many, and it's a it's a megacorp. It's it's insane how big that place is. Yeah, yeah. They they kind of pizza, no, go away. No, no, no, no, no. We we've got Bay Ruti, we've got stale bread. And then you wash it under their noses, metaphorically, of course, and then they see Hang on. What? That that was done for less. It's actually way better. Tastes way better. Our customers all of the positives from a commercial perspective. So it costs less to think about, it costs less to actually construct the whole delivery and fulfillment of it. And then, of course, because it's internal or you know, you've got a good relationship with an agency, the support costings are are so much better as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

And this is where I've got to take a moment and and celebrate you because this is where you came in. I mean, these organizations they didn't even have a sniff of a design interesting shell, you know, to actually have user experience design department that's being run by people like yourself. That never existed. That never existed, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And then you're now you enter this era where suddenly just as a bystander, you're seeing these departments being built around oh, we need to think about we need to think design. We need to include design thinking in our strategy. Um, and that's where you people like you who've come in and educated um.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:49

We've tried. I mean, the story didn't end particularly. I don't think it's ended. That's wrong. That's too harsh.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

No, not at all, but but now you've got banks with design design departments, you've got financial services that have got design thinking, you know, in their kind of portfolio. So I think that's been really interesting, and I think it's been good up to a point.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

I think it's got overtly democratized.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Um and I think things very fast nowadays, don't they? I mean, that's the other thing. You were talking about AI, and I I often think things go so fast, whatever whether it's AI, whether it's the advent of a newfangled anything, it implodes so fast because it goes so fast. There's no time for things to actually mature. So they kind of self-implode very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

That's the big risk, I think, that the majority of people don't see, even when it's under their very noses, and they really, really, hello CEOs, CFOs, CTOs, if you are listening to this, Jagsera said it for you. I've been yapping about it for ages, but Jagseer is saying it for you now. You need the right people to help you understand what value actually is and the value, the commercial, operational value that design brings into your ecosystems. Um you can't have non-design folk playing at design leadership. It will implode and it will implode incredibly quickly. You need a steady hand, you need that experience, and the value that people like Jag, people like Thomas Wilson, Bob Powell, so many, so many names.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:46

Maybe. And it's like, thank you. It's it's it'll come around again, right? Things need to go bad before they get better, and this kind of maneuvering right now, which I think the AI brings, so yeah, we're getting speed, that's fantastic. But you need folks who understand HCD, human-centered design. Because the AI, in whatever technology paradigm that we are all going to be using and are using, they are serving humans, right? It's not the other way around, and it should never ever be the other way around. And design, like it or not, us creative leaders, we understand how design fits with humans, how design fits with technology in order to service humans, and you will get it. You you're just tripping over yourselves right now, but yeah, it'll happen. But look, we've been yapping for quite some time. Thank you so I don't know. Thank you for being so so generous with your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

It's been a pleasure, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

With your insight, which is priceless. No book, no conference, no course could even come close to spending an hour or so with you. You are thoroughly amazing. Right. I mean, before I leave you in peace. What's next for Jag Sear Studios? What what are you doing? What do you want to shout about?

Social Enterprise Collaboration

SPEAKER_00 1:23:37

What do we want to shout about? We're do we've we're looking after our lovely travel clients and we're building our clients in travel and hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:49

And we just want to continue building that, I think. It's it's keeping, we don't want to, again, not not go too fast that we implode. We're very selective in our clients, we're trying to bring a level of luxury to everything we design. Um, a very exciting nugget that I would like to share, um, and that's been close to my heart for many years, and we're just about to launch it, is a collaboration with a social enterprise in India. So whilst I do I create the artwork, which is very bespoke and very Jagzera, sometimes we've had to use suppliers that I don't necessarily feel fit with us, or maybe we want to, you know, have another layer to the good that comes out of the work that we do. Um, so we're about to launch some Christmas gifts for a valued client, which have been developed through this social enterprise. And essentially, watch this space because we'll be talking about it on Instagram Lud and Lut. Um, but yeah, it's going to feed hundreds of Artzan families in India as a result. So um really exciting. I think that's something that I felt was I hadn't achieved that yet, and I think that partnership is gonna grow and we're gonna do more good. And the product that we're developing is gonna meld back into the earth, so a lot less plastic, a lot more natural material. Um you know, but hopefully it won't come to that because the customer will cherish it and want to keep it. So, watch this space because it's about to launch.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:24

That sounds amazing. That's that's fantastic, Jack. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's it. Just just just thank you. Keep on. I don't need to tell you.