Reel Talk & Banter
Ever wanted to just sit around and make fun of an old movie with your friends? That's exactly what Reel Talk & Banter is all about. Join best friends Omari Williams and Jay Richardson as they rewatch movies that came out at least a decade ago. It's a mix of a film review and a comedy roast, where they discuss everything from the plot to the terrible acting, and even if the film has stood the test of time. Get ready to laugh and hear some hot takes on your favorite (and least favorite) classic films.
Reel Talk & Banter
A Surveillance Job Turns Into A Moral Crisis: The Conversation (1974)
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He’s a professional eavesdropper who builds his life around locks, alarms, and silence, then one job cracks the whole system. We’re reviewing Francis Ford Coppola’s 1974 neo-noir mystery thriller The Conversation, and we keep coming back to the same question: is this a tense paranoia classic, or a slow-burn that tests your patience on purpose?
We talk through the opening surveillance sequence in a packed San Francisco square and why it’s the film at its most electric, then trace how Gene Hackman’s Harry Caul spirals as he cleans up a muffled recording and assigns meaning to a single ominous line. Along the way we dig into the ethics of surveillance, the guilt Harry carries from a past job that ended in murder, and the way the movie traps you inside an unreliable point of view where motivation and reality stay slippery.
We also get into the stuff that makes this film legendary for cinephiles: the sound design, the analog wiretapping tech, the twist that changes the emphasis of what you thought you heard, and the final gut-punch that proves Harry is being watched. Then we score it across plot, acting, visuals, music and sound, and cultural impact, including why it sits on major “greatest films” lists even when we’re not fully feeling the hype. Subscribe, share this with a film friend, and leave a review with your rating out of 10.
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Welcome and First Reactions
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to the Real Talk Advanter Podcast, the movie podcast where we discuss and review films that are at least a decade old. I'm Omari Williams.
SPEAKER_04I'm Jay Richardson.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Wow. The excitement is I don't know what that was. Um, today we are discussing the Neo Noir mystery thriller, The Conversation, a 1974 Francis Ford Coppola film. Mystery thriller. How thrilled were you with this movie?
SPEAKER_03I fell asleep. I fell asleep.
SPEAKER_00Oh my did you watch it like in the middle of the day?
SPEAKER_03I don't understand why you're judging me, to be honest. I don't understand what's happening.
SPEAKER_02I thought we had an understanding of each other, but apparently not.
SPEAKER_00Oh, excuse me. Wow. Well, yeah. Neon. You know what? I meant to look up Neo New War, but I didn't. So I know a mystery and thriller means, and I was thrilled at no point in this fucking movie.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No.
SPEAKER_04It was the way you attacked me about falling asleep. I thought you were at the end of your edge of your bed here.
SPEAKER_00Well, no.
SPEAKER_04Neon for our folks out here is new black. It is a modern. What?
SPEAKER_00Okay, sorry. I thought you were leaving it there. I'm like, yeah, that's a literal translation of what Neo.
SPEAKER_04I was coming back to what it is.
SPEAKER_00I I apologize. I apologize. Please, Chris.
SPEAKER_04It uses the dark moods, cynical attitudes, and shadowy looks of classic 1940s and 1950s film noir, but updates them for newer times. That's apparently what Neo Noir is.
SPEAKER_00Hmm. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00How do you feel? How do you feel when you watch a movie and it's like everyone's, oh, this is the shit, this is amazing, and then you watch it and you're feeling less than any of that energy.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry. Who is saying that this is the shit?
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, it was nominated for three Oscars.
SPEAKER_04I mean, a lot of movies have been nominated, and we're like, what the fuck is that? So who is saying?
SPEAKER_00I'm telling you, you asked me. I'm telling you. It was nominated for Best Picture for Best Original Screenplay and Best Sound, right? It was also it is ranked 33 on the BBC's 2015 list of the hundred greatest American films.
SPEAKER_0233, huh?
SPEAKER_00This 33. Yep. It's I mean, nope, not gonna say that. Yeah, 33. This is a Cannes Canis, Cannes Film Festival movie, and it won the Palm Dior, which is the highest honor that can be bestowed upon a film that is entered into the film festival. 69 of the of those awards have been given out. And in 2016, well 69 at a time, in 2016, the Hollywood Reporter ranked this eighth amongst those 69 films. Furthermore, it was selected for preservation into the US National Film Registry by the Library of Congress as being culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant. So there are 965 films, I believe is the number, that have been selected for preservation by the US National Film Registry, right? 124 of those films came from the 70s, and that is the most of any decade. That's 13% of the films. I will give you anything you want if you could name just two of those 13 films. Not including this one, so two of the 12 remaining films. Taxi 1974. Wrong.
SPEAKER_01That's all you got.
SPEAKER_04The whiz. 1974? I don't fucking know.
SPEAKER_01Psycho. 1974.
SPEAKER_00No, no psycho on here.
SPEAKER_02There's no hints at all. Yeah, just hey, they were moving in 1974. Like, Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Alright, one of them, one of them is on your list, I believe. Or one of the chapters is on your list. I can't remember which movie you picked. We haven't covered it yet.
SPEAKER_02One of the after.
SPEAKER_00It's also a movie that Francis Ford Coppola was working on while this movie was being edited and put together. That's the biggest hint you're gonna get there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. The line, the wardrobe, the no.
SPEAKER_00What is The Godfather Part 2?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00The other one is the Robin Henari.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We other one we talked about was we spoke about horror movies a while back, but this is one of the leading horror franchises. We talked about like those top horror franchises. This is one of those movies that's on this list.
SPEAKER_04Horror?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, horror. Slasher film. Yeah. Classic slasher film, 1974.
SPEAKER_04Emityville?
SPEAKER_00No. Amityville? That's not a that's not a profitable. Take big franchise.
SPEAKER_04Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Like big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big. Okay.
SPEAKER_00It has multiple sequels, very popular. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So Halloween. Nightmare on Elm Street.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_04Jeez. Going through the list. Oh my God. Okay. What's Jason's thing? Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00Not Friday the 13th. Not that.
SPEAKER_04Not Friday the 13th. Child's play.
SPEAKER_00Not that. You said Child's Play before. This is hilarious. You're almost there, though. Oh my God. You exhausted the list. You've all you just about exhausted the list.
SPEAKER_04Uh I don't think Texas Chainsaw Massacre is in the 70s at first. No, that's it. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre was in 1974. Yeah. I couldn't remember. I thought it started in the 80s. That's why I skipped over it. I thought the first movie was like in the 80s. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Nope. Yeah. Here's the rest of that list. Antonia, a portrait of the woman, Attica, Blazing Saddles, Chinatown. Chinatown. The conversation, of course. Fuji, Hearts and Minds, Uptown Saturday Night, We're Alive, A Woman Under the Influence, and Young Frankenstein.
SPEAKER_04You know what? I should have said Chinatown because that's also another neo-noir movie. So I should have just threw that out there.
SPEAKER_00It is. It is. Yeah. I should have guessed that.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So have you heard of or seen any of those movies on that list? I mean, you've seen Texas Chainsaw, no. Have you seen any of the other 12 movies on the list? 11 movies, not counting. I have not.
SPEAKER_03I haven't even seen The Godfather, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, the conversation is right up with those with those films, apparently. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Not you give me anything. I you I I want if I named it and I blew it. I whiffed it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I I only asked for two out of the 12, also. Like that was damn it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That was a big swing and a miss.
SPEAKER_00It was. It was okay.
Boredom, Confusion, and Expectations
SPEAKER_00Should I tell our listeners what you said to me when I asked you if you were watching the if you were finished with the movie? Uh you called the movie. Sure. Oh. You called the movie a fever dream. Why why you why is this considered why did you consider this to be a fever dream of a movie?
SPEAKER_04I mean, it was just very hard. It was just very hard to understand like what was happening, what was real, what wasn't. And we were just we were kind of buried in his mind and trying to understand his perspective, but without much, a lot of without very much dialogue, a lot of skipping around. So just like scene to scene, I genuinely again had absolutely nothing. I had no idea what was going on for a large part of the movie. Up until like the third act is when I finally like, oh, okay. But the for the beginning and the middle part, I had no idea what was happening, what was the point, what were we doing? I was just watching because you know Gene Hackman was on the screen and I really like him. So I was like, oh, okay, but I really didn't know what was going on for a good part of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I I wouldn't describe that I was lost in it, but I for me, I was I kept feeling I kept waiting for something, literally anything to happen. I guess things were happening, but just not what I wanted to happen. I don't know because I remember I looked, I checked the timestamp, and I was an hour and seven minutes in, and I'm like, well, what the fuck? And I think because I'm expecting the movie to go certain ways. I I didn't read any synopsis of the movie. I didn't look at a trailer, I just went in cold. And I just expect I guess I maybe my maybe maybe that's a problem. My expect expectations were not properly aligned. Uh because an hour in when they're at his house having a party and just Was that a party?
SPEAKER_04I was thoroughly confused. I was like, are they friends or enemies? Because this does not feel like things I would do with my friends.
SPEAKER_01I know. They came from this convention, and I'm just like, is this the movie?
SPEAKER_00Like,
The Plot Explained With Spoilers
SPEAKER_00all right. Let me let's let me give a a synopsis. Let me let me give the plot here, the synopsis.
SPEAKER_02Go for it.
SPEAKER_00The conversation follows Harry Call, a deeply paranoid and isolated surveillance expert based in San Francisco. He is hired to wiretap a young couple holding a cryptic conversation in a crowded public square. As Harry meticulously filters and loops the audio tape, he uncovers a muffled line. He'll kill us if he got the chance. Haunted by a past assignment that led to a triple murder, Harry becomes obsessed with protecting the couple. He refuses to turn over the tapes to his wealthy, mysterious corporate client, fearing the client will kill the lovers. In a twist, haha. The killers were the couple. And the client ends up dead. The movie ends with Harry receiving a call warning him that they're watching him and not to pursue or investigate what happened. Paranoia fully consumes him. He rips his own apartment to shreds, searching for a hidden microphone, ending the film sitting in the ruins, playing his saxophone alone. And that is our movie.
SPEAKER_04This is how I presume you would be if you lost it. So I was like, oh Humori.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that makes sense. That works. I think I would. I really appreciated that when he was repping up the house, he had his neck strap still on. Like, like he was he's he had done stopped playing the saxophone, but the next trap was still on. Like any saxophone players listening to this, like they know like you just you forget that thing around your neck sometimes, and it's like ah so that was very realistic.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00For
The Opening Surveillance Sequence
SPEAKER_00me, the beginner of the movie, I thought it was really great. I don't know how you felt about that beginning scene with the street performer with the mime and everyone. I I I love the chaos of the beginning, not really understanding what's going on, what's being said, what or who to pay attention to for a while. It was really cool seeing how Harry and his team. So Harry is played, is our main character played by Gene Hackman. It was cool seeing how he and his team was trying to capture this audio from this couple through a busy downtown. You have street performers, people playing music, lots of conversations happening. And like to me, it communicated just how difficult of a job this was, but also how good Harry is at capturing that audio and having people in place. They even had the one dude who he got burnt and he, you know, he immediately pulled out and and gave Harry what he had. That was Polly, was was that guy's name. But I really enjoyed that beginning scene. How did you feel about the beginning scene? Did you enjoy it? Or you know, was it just too chaotic for you?
SPEAKER_04No, I wasn't the beginning scene wasn't chaotic. I probably I probably I don't know if he's I don't know if you said exactly this, but I I would say that it was probably one of the strongest parts of the movie.
SPEAKER_00Um it was the best part, I agree. 100%.
SPEAKER_04Okay, good. Yeah, so you know, I like the overhead shots and then kind of coming in, like you said, you know, essentially we're we're we're being brought into like the surveillance ourselves, right? I I like that how I like how they introduce the element of spy, you know, using spy equipment and all that stuff, where like you kind of everything's clear and then things start to get distorted, like it's being played through a mic, so you're like, oh, okay. So at first, so at first, I because I also did not look at like what this movie's about. I just knew it was a conversation. So at first I thought I was looking at like a movie, like within a movie, like they were shooting a movie or something. So I was like, oh, okay. Maybe that's what's happening. And then you know, it quickly became apparent what was going on. But I did like that. I like that I liked how the people, I like how the main, the main people they were, you know, that they were following and and recording, how they were like kind of using the different things to help cover their conversation with uh I like I like the music, um, like he said, and the the mime that popped in. I didn't spend as much time as you did on the mime, but I did see him and I did, oh okay, mime, but you know, and it was strange enough the conversation they were having and the pieces we're hearing, because at first not everything was very clear, so that it was strange enough and the conversation they were having was enough to draw me in, like, oh okay, so what are we talking about? Like, what's happening here? Yes, so I did enjoy that and I did like that. Did you feel like the surveillance was or did you feel like the movie felt old to you? I mean, yes, it's a 70s, but did it feel old to you? Like in a beginning scene, anyway.
SPEAKER_00Hmm, not not it didn't feel as old as I thought it would have felt. Is that what you mean?
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah, it's a 70s, you have to leave room for that, but it didn't I I just asked go ahead.
SPEAKER_00It it could have been something that was shot in the 90s almost, is right. Yeah, that's how I felt about it. Uh yeah, it it didn't feel like it was because we've watched a bunch of like 70s stuff by now, some 60s stuff, and yeah, it didn't give that it is there, it didn't give that vibe at the beginning of the movie, really.
SPEAKER_04Right, 100%. That's uh that's what I was trying to get at with you because I I enjoyed that. It didn't feel like old, it felt like it could have been a 90s movie, maybe, maybe, maybe an early 2000 movie, but it definitely not 70s or or early 70s, yeah, early 70s, early 60s. So I did appreciate that and I did like that. And yeah, it did show how impressive Gene Hackman's character call was with how he positioned the different places and things and all that. I was like, one dude said uh he got burned. I was like, I guess, like, I guess, I mean, she did she did burn him, yes, but like he didn't know that. Like, he was like, Oh, she looked at me. I was like, so like she's looking at everybody.
SPEAKER_00I guess I would have thought did he not have um audio in his air?
SPEAKER_04I didn't think he had audio to hear what she was saying, I thought he had audio to hear like the but the you know guys in the truck are saying so he literally just went off of the look that she kind of glanced over his way. Right.
SPEAKER_00I was like, what the fuck? Interesting. Okay, well, so that's also crazy to me, right? Why did she burn him? Because if we know no matter how the movie ends, that they knew the couple knew that they were being recorded.
SPEAKER_04Right. That's why they were like speaking so coded, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but no, but not only that though, they okay, so I mean they hired him essentially to record them though. Well, okay, so alright, let's let's unravel this mystery here then. Because first of all, Harrison Ford is in this movie. Yes, no, I mean, well, that's because that we're about to talk about our character, but I mean he was in this movie. I didn't know he was in this movie at all. That was a pleasant surprise to me. Yeah, um, this is pre-Indiana Jones pre-Star Wars, Harrison Ford, so that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he was very, very young.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but no, the reason I I say that is because oh, you explained this to me. Is Harrison Ford's character like he was in on it? Like he was in on the murder plot.
SPEAKER_04You know what? That is true.
SPEAKER_00So I guess that's right, so if he's in on the murder plot, like he wanted these tapes. I mean, yes, the the the client, the director, he's the one that hired McCall. I mean, call, sorry, he's the one that hired call. But I would imagine that the couple, his wife and and her lover, that they knew that the director hired Call to record them. Because his assistant, he was in on everything.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Stet. Um, Martin Stetz, yeah, yeah, Martin, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if Martin is like trying to get these tapes so he can give them to the director, to me, the reason they wanted to give that stuff to the director is so that they could lure him to that hotel room to kill him. So, yeah, they're speaking in code because they don't want to just well, they can't just play me out and play and say they're gonna kill this guy. But I figured they were aware that they were being recorded the whole time. Unless we're saying that only because they found out they were being recorded is why they decided to kill him. No, that's not that no, that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_04No, because they were saying from the time they said that they feared that you know, he I think I couldn't remember the exact wording, but they were essentially saying that he'll kill us if he got the chance.
SPEAKER_00That's all I know. Yeah, he'll kill us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. So I think they already, you know, we're planning it.
SPEAKER_00Conspiracy was already there. Yeah, conspiracy commit murder was already, that's what they were discussing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I don't actually now I'm kind of confused. Like it from the longing looks of Stet, like once everything comes out, it appears that he was involved in some way.
SPEAKER_00Because he's the one that calls them at the end.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00His voice.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was yeah, that was him saying, Hey, let it go, or you know, we're listening. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it it just makes it weird to come back full circle to our conversation that they would burn Paul, Polly, because I don't know, it's like, yeah, you're you set this whole thing up, you know. So I don't know. I guess that's I mean, maybe convincing.
SPEAKER_04Maybe they didn't know like at that exact time that they were being followed until a little later. Maybe he told them. I mean, we never see him them interact, him and the wife.
SPEAKER_00With Martin. Uh yeah, so yeah.
SPEAKER_04Maybe he was like, Hey, he's listening. And they're like, Oh, well, we gotta make our move now. I I d I don't know. But yeah, it wouldn't make sense for her to burn him 'cause she don't care 'cause she already knows she's being followed. So who cares?
SPEAKER_00But Yeah, and they need him to, you know, so to to rec they need to be recorded so that the director could try and ambush them. At the hotel, so they could just jump on him and kill him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's that's weird now. That is a weird aspect.
SPEAKER_00Well, so this is not I don't think this is okay. Let me ask you. Do you think this is a bad movie? I mean, we're gonna rate it yes, officially and stuff, but did you think this was a bad movie or I didn't think it was a bad movie overall?
SPEAKER_04I was hoping through our conversations and maybe some things I missed, you know, it'd raise up for me, but it's kind of a mid-movie right now as it stands.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think some things just weren't explained enough for me to be like on board. Like, oh, this is great. Okay.
Harry Caul, Paranoia, and Life of Solitude
SPEAKER_00Let's talk, let's talk a bit about Gene Hackman and his character Harry Call, right? He's definitely a loner. The paranoia is already through the roof, which I guess that makes sense for some his job is to spy on people for a living. So it would make sense that he's worried about being spied on because he knows that we know what people are capable of. He knows what he's capable of, right? So we we get a I mean, we saw his interaction with his in his employee, partner, friend. I don't know, whatever Stan was to him. Stan's a weirdo, though. He took remember he took those pictures of those ladies putting on lipstick.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god. I was so I was like, Jesus Christ, what's with all these movies in which men have never seen women before? Uh what is this reaction? I don't know, yeah, baby, yeah, yeah. Like those zips, yeah, baby, yeah, yeah. I'm like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_01This is so weird. That's what I wrote. I was like, what a weirdo. And now Harry is gonna have all these photos of these fucking ladies and their mouth wide open.
SPEAKER_04Like, this is like why are you wasting film with this bullshit? Like, bro, get the fuck out of here.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. But yeah, so we see even their interaction. Although Paul and Harry seem to have a familiar, friendly relationship, but it's really shown when Paul goes to a meet with his lady, and she just she peppers this guy with a bunch of questions like as he walks in the door, and he's like in a good mood, you know. He's like, It's my birthday or whatever, just completed a difficult job. He's feeling good about himself, and she's like asking him, like, oh, I didn't know it was your birthday, and well, I can't even remember what she asked him, but he was not having it, and he's like trying to they're making out, and while he's kissing her up on her neck, she's still asking him questions, and he's like, you know what? Fuck this, I'm out of here. And she's like, No, no, no, no, no, you're not leaving. I'm putting you out because I'm done with this secretive bullshit. So we saw that he's his ability to have form connections with people. It is strain because and he says in the movie later on, he he he shares nothing private or personal with this woman.
SPEAKER_03He does, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm not sure how he ex he thought a relationship would work out.
SPEAKER_04I mean, you know, some people were cool, okay with the bare minimum. I mean, she wasn't eventually. It's like, yeah, I think I'm gonna stop calling you. And he's like, he just walked out the door. I was like, Oh, I I don't, I'm not sure if he's phased or not, but I guess that's it. Well, I mean, we found out later he was pretty stripped up about it. He was bothered later, but he had zero reaction in real time. He was just like, Oh, okay, well, I'll see ya.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's he's like a robot, though. So I don't think he knew how to process those emotions. And he just was focused on the fact that she's asking all these questions. Why is he asking these questions? Like, is she working for someone or like because oh, even before that, remember when he got home? He got home and there's a birthday gift in his apartment. Oh, man's was mad. He was kissed. I thought that was nuts. So I wrote, I said, Well, who put this in his apartment? How did they do that? He has like three locks on his door and a crazy loud ass alarm system. But what was hilarious to me is that he immediately gets on the floor, he asks the same fucking questions. How did you get in my apartment? How'd you get past the alarm? Uh, we didn't hear the answer for the alarm, but we did find out that the landlord, yeah, uh, she has a key for the apartment, and he's just like, Why do you need a key? And she's like, Oh, in case of emergencies. And he's like, What emergency would you need a key for? And she says, a fire. So is she going around to everyone's apartment and collecting their valuable items to help them?
SPEAKER_04Like, what man said, I would rather you just let my shit burn, to be honest. Just stay out of my apartment. Like, what? I don't know what that was. But back to his reaction to things, like, I'm not a fan of diagnosing anybody, but there was just very extreme scenes of him like almost going like catatonic, like with major emotional parts happening. Like, he would just like go stonewall and just silent and just Dere in Hair Light's book, and then I guess turn back on and then keep keep going. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, he was very he was truly robotic, and it was like, okay, I guess you have to be that type of person to be really good at this type of work, maybe. And then it, you know, it turns out, and I don't know if you're gonna, I'm sure you're gonna go into this a little bit, but I didn't know if he was always like this, or if you know, this happened after his you know, first or whatever his most famous wiretapping job with the dang, not not welfare, what do you call it? Um was it welfare they said?
SPEAKER_00Either way, that I don't remember who it was for or with, but it that the you're referring to the one that ended up with the people being killed, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I can understand how that would mess people up, you know, anybody, to be like, oh, the work that I did directly, even though I didn't pull the trigger, the work that I did directly made not only the person that probably was the most important, but it's they said the wife was killed, the the the son, the young son was killed, where his head was in a different area. And I was like, Oh, okay. I mean, that would make me kind of paranoid and catatonic as well, you know, to continue in that line of work and be res take on that responsibility.
SPEAKER_00So is is interesting, right? His response to even that stressor, right? Because that didn't happen, and then he quit his job or he was more mindful of what he was doing. He just kind of receded into himself and kind of found comfort and absolution in the fact that the job is the job, right? And he allowed himself to to like I said, absolve himself where he doesn't so he doesn't take responsibility from it for it. He's like, all I did was record something and I handed it to somebody. That's what I was supposed to do. It doesn't matter what was said. I you know, so he just doubled down on that over these past, I don't remember what a time frame was between the New York gig and him being in present day in in San Francisco. But when Bernie was up in his face being like, Yeah, you you you caused this. This was because of you, you this is your fault. That's what you saw one of his reactions you're talking about, where he could he couldn't cope because he obviously has never dealt with that shit over the past however many years. Yeah, he bottled that shit up, and then now with this case having some parallels where he's like, people could be in danger. Yeah, he was he was definitely spinning out, but in such a reserved, quiet way. Like he wasn't like running around like screaming or having meltdowns, he just crawling to himself and just like stop moving and just kind of be there. And it was, yeah, it was listen for however we feel about this movie. Gene Hackman did a really good job.
SPEAKER_04Well, Gene Hackman absolutely killed it. I I would never take that. He is one of I think he's one of the most underrated ones. I mean, you hear about him, but like you always hear about the Pacinos, the De Neros, and you know, those type of four, but I feel like he's right up there and just underrated.
SPEAKER_00Gene Hackman was amazing. And I think what I don't know, do you I don't know if the movie needed, I think the movie needed someone else, like to be a foil to him. Stan was in it. Actually, I think more Harrison Ford would have been good in this movie, you know, just to to give a dramatic foil to Gene Hackman's character, Harry. Because having such a quiet, reserve, reclusive a person that you're following throughout the movie, it it can it can it can drag on you because like not a lot is being done, you know? No, all his reactions are subtle or everything's introspective, and and that's probably the point of the movie, right? Is is that's what they were going for. I just think that probably didn't work for us. Wanting to see some more, I guess, on the screen, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, yes. I'm okay. No, for Gene Hackman did an amazing job, I think, and I will give him his flowers for that. But I needed more, and I don't know how you do that more. But if you if you're gonna be the centerpiece and you're going to be that quiet, that silent, that reserved, then you have to be like, you have to give that. I have to feel you through the screen. And I and I have to get lost, right? I have to like feel like I am you, and I didn't he did a great job, but I it wasn't there, so it was significantly boring for me, really. Like the movie itself, not necessarily him, but no, I know, and I was trying not to use that word, but I think you're ultimately right.
SPEAKER_00It was I was bored a lot of the time, yeah. And even the times when I started to get interested in it, I would be disappointed and let down in how a scene progresses or whatever happens. And I'm just like, what like what is going on here?
SPEAKER_04You know, yeah, yeah. What is going on was my theme for this movie. I I truly was confused for a large port of it.
The Convention, Bernie, and The Party
SPEAKER_04Like you, um you already said it, but I really was so confused about the convention. I was like, what the hell is happening?
SPEAKER_00Why is he what yeah, what is this? So the the convention was interesting. It did a it did it did a couple, it did something. It showed us that one, not only not only is like Harry like good at his job, but he's like, he's that guy, he's the man in that industry. Yeah, he's the guy, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um there was a scene in which some some vendor had some machine and he's like, Oh, you know, could you just use this and tell people you use it so I can tell them you I was like, oh, okay, so I guess you're really good. Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00I as he said his name, he's like, Oh shit, that's you. Oh my gosh, I was I'm so sorry, I didn't recognize you, you know. And so it's like Harry is a I don't know how he'd be a celebrity in like because it's all a subterfuge. Right, you should be discreet.
SPEAKER_04Which I guess he is because he they didn't know he was, but I guess you know his name, but you don't know what he looks like, which is good, I guess.
SPEAKER_00So that um so we get introduced to Bernie. Bernie had been his name had been dropped a couple times prior to this, right? Um which was good. That was a good introduction of a character. He was over the top, he was just you could tell like there's a competitiveness of him trying just kind of following in Harry's shadow. Because even when they were in the the warehouse or his office, and he was like, Oh, to the best bugger in the oh, he's like to the best, and he was like, best of what? Best of tapping. Well, the best on the West Coast, and I'm the best on the East Coast, and it's like, all right, Bernie, like take it easy. But that demonstration that he did, like what kind of magical witchcraft was that bullshit, where he calls a phone using his special phone, you call a phone before you dial the last digit, you play a tone and a harmonica, then you dial the last number, and it will not ring the number, like the number you're calling, their phone won't ring, but you will connect to them, you'll be able to hear what's going on in their household.
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_04What the fuck was that? Bullshit. I I don't know. I mean those um those like switch, those um switches and stuff like they were using, like I I guess maybe those are just easy to tap into.
SPEAKER_00I guess but that way?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I don't know. I don't know none about that.
SPEAKER_00Like with a harmonica tone and hesitating for the last number. I don't know. And are they still in the 70s still using switchboards? I don't think so.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they definitely are in the 70s. They are for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_03I'm not saying everybody, you know, they're probably like phasing out, but I think they still had switchboards, and that's in the 70s.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, regardless, like that was nuts. I could not believe that I mean they did that, and then he did a demonstration, like, oh, did you all see that? And we're like, dude, you didn't prove that your shit works. I well, I mean, someone in the room was like, Yeah, that's good for the what do you say, the the the magazine people are like telemarketer or something? Right, right, right. Yeah, like yeah, that this is one of those things that you would see on TV right now. That's like, you know, for only you know, $29.99, you know, you can get this or whatever. But wait, there's more, you know, we'll double your offer, and like that's this is clearly like one of those things you would see on that TV infomercial offering some garbage that's not really gonna work. So we also bumped back into Stan, right? And this is where I got super confused because it looked like Stan was working for or with Bernie. And my whole thing was like, because he Stan and Harry got into an argument when they were in the office. Like Harry's all paranoid, he's trying to piece together the the recording and and decode everything. And Stan's been annoying, asking him, what's going on? Like, what does it say? And he's like, just leave me alone, dog. And they got in an argument. Next thing you know, Stan has a new job. It was like a day or two later. Like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_04I mean, I think that the when the top folks are probably like close knit, and I guess you're just like, oh, I guess I don't work with you anymore, and then you just find somebody else or freelance a little and you know, do it or but then but then he went to his house or to his office to hang out for this like after convention party thing. I mean, yeah, I hate you, but you got liquor, so you know it's cool, whatever.
SPEAKER_00I guess. All right, I okay, I guess. And then all these people just piled into Paul's Polly's car.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, I was like, this is a fucking clown car. I was like, this little chase thing was just weird. I was like, what the fuck? There's like 15 people in this goddamn car. Like, what is happening right now?
SPEAKER_00And he has the nerve to pull someone over. I'm like, dog, I promise you it's illegal to have all those people in your fucking car. Like, what is going on? It was a 70s.
SPEAKER_03They didn't have no seat belts, so whatever.
SPEAKER_00That's that is true. That is true. I don't know. That but yeah, that that whole scene was weird. I guess it was just to show us that Polly was a police officer, but he already told us he's a police officer from the first scene of the movie. Yeah. And him being a police officer had no bearings on anything else in the film. So why this had to happen? I don't know. Yeah, they could have just cut the scene from the end of the convention, and they could have just been showed up walking into fucking what's his name's office, Harry's office. I didn't need to see him drive there. That was silly.
SPEAKER_03It was a waste of time, and I was I was upset. I was like, why am I watching this? But fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we have some important stuff that does happen here because everyone's kind of I don't know, drinking and hanging out. And it looks like one dude that was there, he was there with his wife.
SPEAKER_04Was she his wife? Oh, the the blonde chick with the big fur coat. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01The older lady, yeah, yeah, yeah. The older one, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the big heavy set dude, the big dude, yeah. So I think they were together. Okay, yeah. And then there was this one chick fooding around with four other dudes. Yeah. I'm like, guys, your ratio is off. Like, well, I mean, she came over here about 10 cents for a dance. And I'm like, all right. I know I don't have a great understanding of inflation, but ten cents for a dance is fucking crazy.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04They got a discount, I guess. Like, I was confused. I was confused on whose girl she was. She was bouncing back and forth between all of them. And I'm like, oh, okay. So maybe she was a lady in a night, which is fine.
SPEAKER_00But I guess, you know. I well, I feel like I don't know. You know how I was like, oh, I say you know how, but like y'all with your boys, y'all with the guys, and it's like we pick up some chicks and it's like are we gonna have a party? It kind of seemed that way, but then the ratio is already off because it was five guys to two women, and then when it looked like the two like were actually paired up as a couple, now we're talking four dudes to one lady. I'm like, guys, this is unsuccessful. You needed more chicks, like this this is not a party. I don't know what the hell this is. This is about to get awkward really fast, and it did. It did, it did.
SPEAKER_03The the movie felt very awkward during this whole this whole scene and setup, and it was just cringe the whole time.
SPEAKER_04I was like, this is this is bad.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what this is. We we had I don't I'm sorry, I don't know. Do you know whom girl's name in the green dress?
SPEAKER_03No, I didn't look it up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. Well, she and Harry goes off to kind of just pow wow and just you know, because she's into him, and she starts telling him about her life and everything, and she was trying to like make him comfortable. She's like, Oh, you don't like me? Why are you not telling me anything? And I'm like, I just met you, like, I'm not fucking telling you shit. Like she's out of her damn mind. Well, her name is Meredith, right? Meredith, that sounds right, yeah. So Meredith.
SPEAKER_04Her name is her the actress's name is Elizabeth McCrae.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yep, that's her. Yep, yep, yep. All right, anyway, their heart to heart gets interrupted because they come by on like a fucking scooter or moped or something. For what do we donuts in the foot? I don't I couldn't even make out where what was this?
SPEAKER_04Like, I don't know, because they drove up. So, where the hell did a scooter come from? They were in a garage? A garage where they were in a warehouse a second ago. Like, what is that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, anyway, she got staken. The whole set was weird, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, so they're inside talking, and this is where Bernie starts questioning Harry about his New York gig. And first he tries to like say, Oh, we should team up and partner up and this and that, and show me, you know, like tell me how you did it, tell me how you did it. Then he tells everyone how that job got you know these people killed, and all the while Harry is just shutting down, like absolutely no one's reading the room, like Harry is Harry is just having a fucking crisis, okay? And Bernie just won't stop. And then the cherry on top, Bernie shows Harry how he fucking bugged him while they're all here hanging out, and that was it. Harry was like, get the fuck out of here. All of it. Finally, we're done.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we're I'm surprised. I mean, I guess you need it. I you needed the part where you got to showing that he was not invincible because he's doing a lot to prevent being tracked, you know, with the with the several locks, with the alarm system, with tracking who has keys and ex and uh access to him and stuff like that, and just kind of same reserve. So I assume you know he's aware of the damaging, the damages of being recorded, so he's very not, you know, so he doesn't want to be recorded, nobody wants to be recorded, but yeah, especially him. So it was kind of weird to watch him fall for that with the pen so easily. I was like, that's like fucking tracking 101, a pen. It's like here's a pen. And you just put it in your pocket, and you're just like tracked. It's like okay.
SPEAKER_00I could buy a fucking pen bug off of fucking Amazon.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and it'll be like, oh, you want to use this pen? I'm like, yeah, I do need a pen. And I'll fucking track. It was like it's it's really like 101. And this is weird for him to like fall for that, especially with the.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna blame it on the alcohol.
SPEAKER_04I I it was I mean, I didn't see him like drinking, drinking, but I could have just missed it.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what was in his he was drinking because the whole time he was talking to Meredith, he was drinking something. I don't know what it was.
SPEAKER_04No, it could have been what we assume is liquor, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, that was just it just seemed out of character for her how meticulous and reserved he is to accept something from from the likes of Bernie. Because it's very obvious who Bernie is. Like, he's a guy who's like right, right. He's a guy who's like, ah, he's a guy who's like on the street, hey, you look good, and then you ignore him. He's like, Well, you're ugly anyway. You're like, what the f like he's that guy. You're like, okay, you just said I look good, but what the fuck ever? So he's that guy. So it was kind of weird, and he a hundred percent deserved to get punched in the face way sooner than you know, he told him get out. Like the repetitive, oh, tell me how you did it. Yeah, you remember when you got the kid. Get killed, yeah. Tell me how you did that. Yeah, I know how to do everything. Tell me how you did that. I was like, okay, you're annoying as fuck, bro.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, dude. I was like, what the fuck is going on here? That's that's why I was like, are these people friends? I I believe that Harry, Harry, and Polly are friends. They seem like they were friends, they were friendly, and that seemed consistent. Bernie is clearly like a competitor. Like they used, maybe they used to be boys back in the day. And then Stan was working with him up until recently, but it's just I don't know. Like to me, to me, it was actually out of character that he would even have all those people over to his fucking office and his workshop. That's true. You know, to have this party or whatever the hell it was. Like that was super weird.
SPEAKER_04Maybe he was feeling some type of way because he had just got broken up. But yeah, if we're friends, if we're friends, I'm not gonna repetitively repetitive repetitively bring up, hey, remember when you killed that kid? Yeah, yeah. How'd you remember? How'd you do that again? It's like, what?
SPEAKER_00I'm not doing that. I think they were more, I think they were more like work friends, you know. And like we all were just at this conference, yes, I'll go get a drink together. I think it was more like that. Like, I don't think on a regular day, I don't think he's hanging out with any of those motherfuckers except for Paul, maybe. So they all leave, and Meredith is like, I'm gonna stay.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, you leave too, like what the fuck?
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, he was okay. So that's you could tell he's lonely at this point because why did he let this strange random woman who told him that he she's maybe kind of sort of married, why would he let her stay? You know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Were you surprised at the dun dun dun twists? She stole his shit. Like, was that surprising for you at all?
SPEAKER_04No, no, it was absolutely it was like it was way too, it was way too obvious. If she didn't, I would have been more shocked, actually. If we woke up in the middle of the night and she was still there, I would have been more shocked. Yep. Because I was like, Oh, this man is this is the point where he's like he's he's he's at this point like literally catatonic. He stopped speaking, he is like a a board, just like stiff as a board, just laying down. She's like naked all of a sudden, but kissing on him and like kind of
Dreams, Guilt, and The Hotel Setup
SPEAKER_04forcing. I felt kind of rapey a little bit.
SPEAKER_00So she she undressed him, you know, she helped lay him down. This showed us, you know, him being undressed by her and everything.
SPEAKER_04But right, but he wasn't responsive, like he was just there, which is you know, if it's not an enthusiastic yes, then it's kind of rapey, but yeah, fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is true.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, from the time, like he had that kind of visceral reaction and was like, everybody, get the fuck out. And like you could literally see him shutting down. Any sane person would be like, Yeah, this is not a safe place for me to be, especially as a woman. Like, I'm not if you react that way, I'm like, you know what, Brother? I we I I'll see you tomorrow. You know me, right?
SPEAKER_00You know me, you understand what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04Right, like for a stranger, like I'll see you tomorrow, or maybe you know, maybe I'll go to another room and you know, in case you need my help, but like I I mean I can't stay in that space with you and how she didn't drive herself there either. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00So that was another red flag, yeah. Like somebody's coming to pick her up, you know?
SPEAKER_04Right, right. Because it's the middle of the night, like you're not using a phone, like you know, like it's not like taxi cabs are like running like that. So I mean, there's no it was San Francisco, so maybe I don't know. But yeah, like there was no surprise that she was working with you know uh Harrison Ford on that or Martin, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. We did get so uh you described the movie as a fever dream. He had a legit fever dream in the movie when he started hallucinating, warning the young lady, and yeah, it was this was this was weird for me. I'm like, it was clearly a dream, but at the same time, I don't know how to I don't know. I don't know how I felt about that scene. I just thought it was super weird and it didn't really work for me. Did how did that go over for you? And she described the scene. So this is a scene where he is seeing her and he's like he's seeing I say her, the woman that he recorded at the beginning of the movie. He's seeing her and he's trying to warn her, and yes, he's trying to warn, warn and he's like, Look, I'm like I'm a friend nam a friend, and she's like for keeps getting further and further away from him. She's not really taking him on. I think he also flashes to seeing dead bodies, I guess from the New York gig that happens in his dream as well, right?
SPEAKER_03I don't recall it being in the dream, but I I could have missed that part. I don't recall, I know at the you know, at the end I know at the end, yes, but I don't recall it being in the dream.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, anywho, that's that's essentially the scene. Like, how did that work for you?
SPEAKER_04There's two things happening. I I I'm so conflicted because I I did I actually did like it because in a way it gave you more information about who he was because he wasn't doing it, so like you needed this like kind of safe space within his own mind, uh, you know, to really understand like who he is. Like he reveals some stuff. He reveals, you know, that he had a childhood illness, like his half his body was paralyzed or something. I was like, oh, so you you had polio? Like, what is that? But okay. Then he then he went into a story about nearly drowning or something like that. So I think in a way he's trying to connect, right? And in a in a sense, connect with the audience and again get me. Well, I felt like he was trying to get me to to buy in because that in the middle, I still don't know, like, really, should do I like this guy? Do I root for this guy? You know, if he dies tomorrow, do I care? So it was trying to, I was, I was I like the dream sequence of giving us an avenue to do that. Because if he had done it outside, like if he had started talking to Meredith and said all this, it would have been so out of character, it really would have took me out. And I'm like, okay, this is literally just plot plotting, and I don't like that.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so what did that do for you though? Like the finding out these things about him.
SPEAKER_04It it made it more human, first and foremost, because he really was behaving at a robotic level. The fact that he was dreaming about Anne does did show he had some level of guilt for what happened before. Because, like you said, he was very, I just did my job, I provided the tapes, whatever happened to that, that's their business, you know? And we're all like, I mean, in a way, but if you're like a hundred percent sure if you give somebody some information, that person will die. Can you really claim neutrality? And my answer is no, no, you can't. Even though you didn't pull the trigger, you you created a conduit for it to happen. You're complicit in it, yeah. Yeah, so so it steps in, and especially since he has this, like, well, not has this there's a scene where he he does confession, right? And during confession, he doesn't say it either, he doesn't bring it up. He confesses that he stole a magazine. I'm like, bro, you're doing more than fucking stealing magazines, but okay. Yeah, so it's just it was opportunity and opportunity for like absolution from him, and I wasn't getting it. So it may be not necessarily like him, like, okay, well, you you kind of suck, bro. You don't care about this at all. But the dream sequence kind of brought it back for me of like, okay, you do have some guilt, you do have some emotions here. You it seems like you genuinely want to save her, you know, from the same fate as that family, you know. So I yeah, it helps. I don't know. I don't know if I'm reading too much or just or trying to claw it or what, but I I did get a little something from it.
SPEAKER_00My thing when we talk about Harry as a character, though, is that he ultimately does nothing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And fuck man.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I didn't know that at that point. I figured he was gonna save the day.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no. No, no, of course not. No, no, I know, I know. But but transition into he, you know, so he eventually he calls Martin, and Martin's like, yeah, we have the tape. You know, we were a little anxious, we wanted to get our hands on it, but we have your money, you know, just come through, bring the pictures, we'll pay you. No harm, no foul. And he he finally meets a client, the director, and tries to ask him what's gonna happen to the girl. And you know, of course they don't say anything to him. They're like, hey, take your money, count that shit outside, dog. Get the fuck out. Yeah, but he goes to the hotel and he tries to book the Jack Jack Tar hotel. He tries to book room 773. They said, No, it's already taken. He asked for an adjoining room, which is very sus as hell. But the dude was like, sure, like I'll connect you to this room. But I I got frustrated and I I wrote down, I'm like, I said the fuck. I said, why did you go there if you're not gonna do anything? You know, and I I know that's part of it, that's what's happening here. That frustration is I'm assuming that's something that couple of wanted us to feel. But I just I don't know, I thought they took us on this this long ride, you know. They they showed the paranoia, they showed the the consequences of of you know spying on people and and not being able to properly understand, you know, your actions, but taking responsibility for your actions, they show him wrestling with the guilt and how you know how much at fault is he for what happened to that previous family. Like, we went through all of that, and then when it was time, he literally crawled under his fucking covers and just like hit his head. And I guess that's genius, but I was very dissatisfied with that outcome from our main character.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you definitely expect the main character to to buck up, right? To even if you're afraid to to have that that last surge of courage and bust open a door and save the girl, you know, because that's who that's ultimately who he thought he was really the victim, even though, you know, spoiler alert, we know it's not true. But so yeah, I I get that. I get you feeling like unfulfilled of taking us along this journey, and then we're just he's just the same guy he was when the movie started, which is not what you want with a main character where you're essentially the only person really in the movie. I do have a question for you, and I don't know if it was clear to me, that's what I'm asking you. So once when he's in the adjoining room, he drills a hole in a wall in the bathroom, fix some kind of listening, whatever device, and then he starts hearing screams. So were those screams real? Or that was just him hearing things, or I was confused there.
SPEAKER_00Unclear.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay, man. You okay, everybody, everybody, everybody. We can see each other. Omari took his fucking face and slowly moved up to the fucking mic and opened his mouth, like, ah, I've got the answer for you, and then came out with unclear. Talk about dissatisfied, talk about it. Thanks, Omari. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry. I knew what you were gonna ask me, but from the time you started speaking, I was waiting for you to just finish to get your question out. Okay, because I remember watching that scene too and being like, what the fuck is happening? Like, is he hearing this or is he? I I mean, I think uh I'll try to give a more educated answer for our listeners. I I think some of it is probably his PTSD from what he imagined happened, because obviously he wasn't there when those other people got killed. But I I think it was a mixture of like actual audio versus like his perception being off. I don't know, man. This guy is like crashing out at this point. Like, we he becomes very like a little unreal as an unrealistic, you know, narrator, or his POV becomes a little unrealistic ever since he he that dream sequence, you know, and he's kind of just spinning out a little bit. So I don't know, I don't know what he was hearing. It was really weird.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was I was I was I was highly confused about what was real and what was not. Um and I was hoping that you had an answer.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I yeah, I I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04Even up to the like the toilet overflowing with blood, I was confused on whether that was real or not. But then at the end, I think it came out that that was real, but yeah, I believe that's real. Yeah, but I was like first of all, who cleans up like that and then stuffs a bloody ass fucking shirt down a toilet?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what the fuck? That makes any sense?
SPEAKER_04It does not make any sense.
SPEAKER_00You've just undid all your work, not a room's a crime scene because all that blood is not natural to come out of that fucking toilet. Right. I don't even know if that would happen like that. That was kind of so hey, well, okay. I think the bloody rag in the toilet is real. It overflowing like that into the room, that might not be real. That might be some bullshit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because it it clearly it clearly cleared the toilet or the pipes because it wasn't sitting in the bowl, it was the bowl was empty, and then he just had some inkling to flush the toilet, and when he did that, then it I thought you could have seen a little bit of the rag kind of like oh, could you? Okay, maybe I missed it. Yeah, I I yeah when I looked, I I didn't see anything, so I was like, Oh, what gave him the inkling to flush the toilet? He just kind of looked at it and just flushed it. I was like, oh, okay, and then all of a sudden you see a bloody, a very bloody rag. I was like, is there an entire body down there? Because there's no fucking way that much blood is coming up out of the toilet, but okay.
SPEAKER_00I think the bloody rag is real, but the the intensity with which the toilet exaggerate exaggerated for us, and yeah, like the fucking two human bodies worth of blood that came out of the toilet. I don't think that was real. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so after I guess it was this was the next day. He he broke into the next apartment to like see what happened, and you know, as Joe just said, it was clean except for the toilet, the rag in the toilet. So this is like the second time I laughed. Where he gets to the director's office and he rushes past the receptionist and a dude comes down the stairs.
SPEAKER_04This is what I texted you. I was like, Well, I'm watching him get manhandled on the stairs, I guess. I was like, what the fuck is this?
SPEAKER_01My guy, sorry. This is holy shit.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why this is so funny to me, but there's a so listeners, if you haven't seen the movie, right? There's like a imagine like a spiral staircase, and there's a dude you know, halfway up the stairways blocking you. You're trying to go up the staircase, right? And there's another guy at the bottom of the staircase, they're like, hey, you need to leave. You can't go up there. And Harry is like, Okay, all right, I'm leaving.
SPEAKER_01And he turns to leave and then he spins around and tries to juke past the dude at the top of the staircase, fucks it up, immediately gets grappled with the man handle, and they're like, they're like dragging him, they're like lifting him out of the fucking he's okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right, all right. I'll leave, I'll leave. That shit.
SPEAKER_00I thought that was so fucking funny. I know that's not supposed to be funny, but that had re rolling, and it was so much needed levity in what was a confusing ass movie. Oh my gosh. So Harry gets out to the street and he sees the the limousine, and he's like, Oh shit, there's a director. Director's in a fucking limo. I'm gonna confront him, I guess. I don't know. Again, I'm like, Harry, like you're not that fucking guy. Like, what was he doing? Because he had a chance to confront last night, he didn't do it, so he decides he's gonna roll up on the director in the limousine, and I don't know. Well, much to his surprise, when he pulls up to the limo, it's not the director, it is his wife, Anne. The lady Anne from the beginning was the director's wife the whole time, and the dude she was meeting with was her lover. She was having an affair. He sees Anne, he immediately just fucking like does a 180 and walks away. And then I guess some the did the scene skip to a different scene, or because all of a sudden she was coming out of a building with news reporters. So time went by. Is that what happened?
SPEAKER_04Great question, sir. Great question. I oh god, so not only is she coming, she's coming out of the building that he was just thrown out of. So I didn't know if if he went back in and she also went back in and then she came down. No, I I think it I think some time did pass because it was it was he picked up the newspaper that said the director was killed. So when the car crashed. So the car crashed, that's right. So there's enough time that it became news, and I guess maybe once he saw that he really started putting things together, he went back to do what I don't know, because we know he's not gonna do shit, but he went back. He's a pussy.
SPEAKER_00Harry, you're a punk. Like you're not doing shit, man. Like stay ass at home, dog. Okay, that's why they called him and said, yo, don't start no stuff, won't be no stuff, you bitch ass. Like, that's what that was. That's what he didn't do shit on movie long. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04Um so yes, he once he really started putting it together. I think he went back there. And as he was there, you know, she was walking down the stairs and hit with a bunch of reporters of asking, like, what happened? Are you gonna, you know, get whatever inheritance, whatever building he was in charge of, yada yada, yada. He sees, of course, Martin there and the lover there. Yep. And you know, they all kind of give him the look like, relax, bro. Yeah, stand down, stand down. And he does nothing but go home. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_00So, how was this revealed? This twist. How was this for you?
SPEAKER_04Ooh, that's a great question. I didn't even think about that. I think at this point I was just ready for it to be done. So I have to really kind of like I really have to kind of think about how I actually felt about it. It didn't.
SPEAKER_00I know. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Wow. It was well, objectively speaking, I was it was well done. Yeah. Um, the way the whole how he misunderstood the context of he'll kill us if he got the chance. Yes. Like, we're gonna get him before he gets us. Yes, like it was well done. I think I was just so bored by the time we got to the reveal. I just I guess I didn't care as much.
SPEAKER_04Yes. I I that's how I feel. Yeah, not to ditto you, but that's how I feel. I actually I cared less about the reveal, but the replaying and the focusing on different parts, you're like, oh, that's what they meant. Okay, okay, okay. So the answer was there, but we were so focused on, you know, it had to be the director. There was no other concern of the other possibility of flipped. Maybe Anne is trying to kill her husband, you know. Yeah, um, so yeah, I did like that. But yeah, the actual reveal itself. I it really didn't matter to me who the hell was killing who at that point. It's like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. So
The Final Phone Call and Bug Theory
SPEAKER_00there's a little quota of the movie on the movie after this scene where he goes back home and Gene Hackman is there playing the saxophone, doing his thing, and he gets the the phone rings, he answers, no one picks up. He goes back to playing his saxophone, phone rings again, he answers, and they said, We know you know, don't do anything, don't investigate, because we're listening, we're watching you, and they replayed what he just played on the saxophone for him to prove that yeah, we have your shit bugged. And I don't know, man. Like, imagine being wound so fucking tightly and so goddamn paranoid, and then to have that shit confirmed that yeah, people are watching and listening to you in your fortress of an apartment, you know. My guy loses his shit, tears up the fucking walls, rips up floorboards, rips down his his light fixtures, this destroys that entire apartment. Yeah, like I'm like, yeah, you're not getting your security deposit back.
SPEAKER_04I did say that. I was like, damn, is this his? Because I don't think he's I Jesus, damn we're getting old. Cause I definitely was like, I don't think you're getting security deposit back if you fucking do that. The fucking landlord's gonna walk in like hello? Oh my god, we're getting old. Jesus.
SPEAKER_00That's funny. But I'm like, wouldn't it make sense just to move? Isn't that less work than what he did?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, 100%. I mean, he he lost it, he lost his mind. Because yeah, the the smart thing would have been like pack up. I mean, he just got 15 grand in in cash, so you know, he can move wherever the fuck he wants. I mean, this is 1970s San Francisco, like it ain't hard, yeah. It ain't hard, so I don't know. I mean, but I think he was just so overwhelmed and so consumed with the fact that they got him. Not only Bernie got him, which he wasn't expecting, and now this other group is you know, got. As well.
SPEAKER_00Well, Meredith got him. Meredith got him.
SPEAKER_04Meredith got him too. So now he's got three. So, like, whatever sense of security he had just at just went out the window. And I think what once you're a dangerous man when you like are that desperate and that like insecure, unfortunately. So, I mean, he didn't have a much in his apartment in the first place. It was damn near bare, except for like a Virgin Mary on a bed. And so, like, you know, and his saxophone.
SPEAKER_00And his saxophone, yeah.
SPEAKER_04It probably was in his fucking sacks, but even that that'd be kind of distorted.
SPEAKER_00No, I and I've seen people because people theorize where it was. Um I saw the saxophone thing come up, but I'm like, nah, that recording sounded too good.
SPEAKER_04Right, that's what I said. It'd probably be distorted if it was in there, because that's just too loud, you know. That's like me shouting into a mic and they'd be like, hey, can you hear me? Like, unless maybe they got some advanced, you know, processing that they bring it down or something. I don't know, but whatever.
SPEAKER_00So Coppola said that he's on record saying he actually never decided or thought about where the actual recording device was. One of his favorite theories, though, some uh people have theorized that it was in the next trap of the saxophone. So he likes that one as a theory that, oh yeah, sure, that could have been it, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I like that one. Yeah, that's something with the sax. I I feel like it has to be because no place else really existed for it to be. And that's like his one constant. That's what he does when he's feeling whatever he's feeling. So, and I I'm sure people know that. So, yeah, it it'd be something in the sacks. I don't know where exactly, but that makes sense to me. Yeah, but yeah, I think he just he's just he's just gone at that point, and he will never be the same after this.
Ratings, Cultural Impact Discussion and Goodbye
SPEAKER_04Uh all right, let's read it.
SPEAKER_00For any newcomers, we rate our movies based on five categories plot and writing, acting, casting, production, cinematography, music and sound, and cultural impact. Everything is rated on a scale of one to ten. Jill, what do you have for the plot of the conversation?
SPEAKER_04Very mid for me, so I gave it a three.
SPEAKER_00Three is mid? Okay, four no, you said mid. Three is bad. Five is mid. I don't want to give it a five, so four. I I I gave it a six. What what is wrong with the I know you don't like the movie, but is the plot terrible though? Like a three or four.
SPEAKER_04Five, fine.
SPEAKER_00You're bored, yes. But is the writing bad? Is that why you're bored?
SPEAKER_04Oh no, no, no. The writing wasn't bad. But okay, maybe I could where would I catch it? Okay, I know where to ding it. I'll give it a five. Fine.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04All I know is this movie is not averaging above a five for me. So whatever I gotta manipulate is not going above a five. So we'll figure this out. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. Act and acting and casting.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I I really like Gene Hackman. I don't know what everybody else is doing, to be honest. Um, but I I will give it a seven.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I had to seven production, cinematography, and visuals. You're about to score this very high, by the way. But go ahead.
SPEAKER_04See, that's I told you. Um I give it a six. Oh, yeah, I have that as well.
SPEAKER_00Music and sound. What do you have?
SPEAKER_04I I like the music and the sound. Like that was actually one of my favorite parts. We didn't really talk about it a lot.
SPEAKER_00We did not at all, actually.
SPEAKER_04But I know, I but the music and sound actually like helped drive the story because he wasn't giving us anything, so you really have to pay attention to the fucking music.
SPEAKER_00It was so fucking good, the music.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god. So yeah, I gave that a seven.
SPEAKER_00I have an eight. Nice.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you see, you're making me fucking zero here because you already right now you're at a five.
SPEAKER_00Like, you gotta give this a zero, I think. Um cultural impact. And remember, remember, this is the eighth film of 69 winners of the Palm Dior. This is the 33rd best film of a hundred America's hundredth greatest film, and it has been preserved in the U.S. National Film Registry by the Library of Congress for being culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant cultural impact. What do you give it?
SPEAKER_02Three.
SPEAKER_00That's not enough. That's not enough. You had a 5.6 with your three.
SPEAKER_04I'll eat that point six, fine. I mean, I tried to give a bam four for my acting, and you got mad.
SPEAKER_00You can't. You I didn't get mad. I was just trying to understand why. No, for the plot you mean. I was just oh yeah, plot, plot, plot. You had a three for the plot, cultural impact. I'm gonna be more generous than you. I give it a five for cultural impact. Like, I'm I don't it's not impacting me, but the culture of film, of American film, has been impacted by this film for whatever.
SPEAKER_01How? How? I just told you.
SPEAKER_04Like everyone's gonna be like, You told me there's they got, you know, it's it's on the the library of blah blah blah blah blah blah. So, okay, cool, great.
SPEAKER_05Blah blah blah blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_04I made a list, but really, how? I wouldn't have to go into it because that might go into a long conversation here, but I just like I don't see because it's not like neonar was like brand new or something, a twist of the act the woman actually being the killer. I mean maybe in the 70s that maybe might be new, okay, maybe. I just don't see like influence when you talk about cultural impact. Like it maybe it was good. I mean, maybe the cultural impact is the fact that Watergate was like on the heels of it or or right before it. So maybe, maybe, maybe that tie in. I could eat that, I guess. But other than that, it didn't affect anything. There wasn't like a yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Whatever. The critics' consensus reads, and this is this is Rotten Tomatoes, which has given it 94%, by the way.
SPEAKER_0594%.
SPEAKER_00This tense paranoid thriller presents Francis Ford Coppola at his finest and makes some remarkably advanced arguments about technology's role in society that still resonate today. Does it rob Roger Ebert said that Hackman's portrayal of Carl as one of is one of the most affected and tragic characters in movies? The film comes from another time and place than today's thrillers, which are so often simple-minded. I don't know, man. Like the industry loves this fucking movie. That's all I'm saying. And we just we're fucking recording fucking podcasts in our living rooms, all right? We're not here making million dollar movies, and the people that do think it's awesome. So I don't know. Alright, so final score, you have a 5.6.4.
SPEAKER_04Hey.
SPEAKER_00Well, that will do it for our Real Talk and Banter on the Conversation. To connect with us, to give us some feedback, or just say hello, email us at realtalkbanter at gmail.com. That's R-E-E-L Talkbanter at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_04Remember that time um, you know, you murdered that entire family? Yeah. You did pretty good with that. Yeah. Tell me how you did it. Yeah, I like that.