Episode Two - First Days With Hospice

In this episode Aron and Charlie, Angela's primary care nurse, take us through Angela’s admission to Hospice West Auckland - just weeks after her diagnosis. He shares what those first days were like: the assessments, the new faces, and the gentle but unfamiliar rhythm of Hospice care. Like many, Aron and Angela had their own ideas about what hospice meant—most of them heavy, and honestly, a little scary. But those preconceptions were quickly challenged in unexpected and comforting ways.

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Transcript

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On October 17, 2023 the bright more family's world was turned upside down when at the age of just 44 a tumor was found in Angela's brain. One month later, they were introduced to the world that is hospice. This is Angela's story, walking the final path together, a hospice West Auckland podcast. Hello and welcome to Angela's story, walking the final path together, a podcast by hospice West Auckland. This is episode two, and last episode, we learned about Angela and Aaron and Angela's love story, and we go all the way up until her introduction to hospice West Auckland. Today, we are joined by Charlie, who was Angela's primary nurse through Angela's admission. Welcome Charlie. Thanks for joining Astor. Thank you for having me. Aaron. Last episode we talked about the lead up to hospice, I think you and Angela were starting to get the word of hospice, the suggestions of hospice brought to you, and then we had a referral that came through. So obviously Angela's diagnosis came along, so you're kind of dealing with all of that. And then our top my head, our surgical nurse from the DHB mentioned that we should probably get in touch with hospice. Now, obviously, there's kind of some preconceptions around what that, what that means, and things like that. So that was my initial reaction. Was like, what are you what are you talking about? We've, you know, we've had a prognosis of 18 months to, kind of three years. Why are we getting hospice involved? And that was more around my my perception of hospice at the time was that you, you came to a you went to hospice, and that was kind of the last days, and you kind of, you went in and you kind of didn't come out, and you stayed there all the time, and people looked after you. And so my initial thoughts around that were like, Whoa. Like, hang on a minute. We we've just found out that this is a thing. What? Why are we kind of shipping her off to hospice? So that took, that took a little bit to kind of get used to, and get my head around. You know, you, like I said, you're kind of dealing with this initial prognosis, and now it's like worst case scenario, and it's like, Well, what happened to all the in between bits? So, yeah, that was, yeah, it was, it was, it was quite full on. And it wasn't until, you know, we kind of got a brief explanation. It was like, well, actually, that's kind of not it. You know, there's other things that they can help you with. And then seeing, that's when we got to, when we got to meet Charlie. So here, Charlie, what is the role of a nurse with hospice? Well, I guess, because we are a community based hospice, our work is within people's homes or wherever they call home, and I suppose at that initial meeting, it is getting an idea of what's happened up to that point, what disease has occurred to cause them to need to be under hospice, and getting to know that person, their family, their sort of support network, what the main issues are. And I guess, sort of starting some conversations about wishes for the future. Our role is to really help support people to manage their symptoms and to be cared for where they want to be cared for during that time of deterioration, and I guess in those last sort of days, hours of life as well. And that was, and that was a that was the biggest thing for us, is, was was keeping Angela at home for as for as long as possible, and so thinking that preconception that she was going to kind of be taken away to then have that kind of like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, we're going to do what we can to keep her at home and make sure that you know that she's okay. Was like this, like, oh, okay, all right, now we can kind of open ourselves up to, you know, what you guys actually do? So hearing that we're community based already starts to break that preconception that I think a lot of people have in the Hospice is a place that you go, and although there are inpatient units that people can go to if they need to, like you said, Charlie, the predominant support that we provide is where people want to be. And I think we're quite unique in West Auckland in that and we have a fabulous community team to support people, because we. Know that generally, people want to be cared for in their last days in the place they call home, whether that is their own house or a rest home or a hostel or wherever that may be. And I think probably those misconceptions are based on older values of hospice, perhaps whether that was the case when hospice only got involved in those last phases, but very much now, it is about living every moment and trying to enhance someone's quality of life as much as possible. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I when I talked to a friend of mine leading up to today, she'd also she had an experience where she was standing in line at the bank, and a girl behind her was was talking to a friend and was saying, Oh, my dad's really sick. And, you know, we're not sure how long he's got left, and my mum's really struggling to look after him, and stuff like that. But we don't want to call hospice, because they'll come and take him away and and things like that. And so my my friend, having seen what what happened with Angela, was kind of like, hey, look, I'm really sorry to kind of eavesdrop, but I just kind of need to jump in here. That's not what they do. And so she kind of explained, you know, our experience to this girl, and this girl, like, hugged her and was crying, was like, Oh my God, thank you so much for you know, we didn't know, and now we can get this help. So, yeah, it is, it is a pretty strong preconceived idea about what happens. And are these one of those things, unless you need to know, you don't seek the information. So you just hear what you've heard from other people. You're not going to give yourself that education about what the service offers if you don't need to know so it and as much as we really plow into trying to get that message out there, I think people don't listen unless they need to. Yeah, yeah, because we don't like to talk about death and die as well. No, yeah, which is part of which is a big reason of why we're here today doing this, and when we first started this podcast, it's one of the reasons right is going, Yeah, you you don't know what you don't know, but actually you know kind of all need to know. Yeah. So your first couple of visits, Introduction to hospice. What was that like for you and for you and Angela, after the, you know, the kind of initial, kind of like, okay, yeah, this is a, this is a road we're going to go down. It was, was reassuring, you know, it was in especially kind of getting that kind of feeling that actually, we we could do this, and, no, we weren't going to be by ourselves. And, you know, there's that initial period where it's like, you know, we're going to pop by, kind of once a month kind of situation. And, you know, okay, oh, that's, you know, that's, that's cool, and, you know, and that progression of, okay, well, now it's once a week, and then, and in our case, that was really, really quick, you know, it was kind of, it'll be once a month, and then it was a week later. No, no, we're going to be here every week, kind of thing to every day. So the big thing was, it was, it was reassuring. I think it was, it was comforting for for us, but I think even more so, it was comforting for Angela. I think it took kind of a lot of fear away from her, thinking, Well, where am I, you know, where am I going to end up? You know, am I? Am I going to be taken away from my family and in things like that? And so I think that was a that was a really, really big part of it. And you know, when you you might not have noticed, but when, when you came into the house, you could see her kind of just go, like, I don't have to have these amateurs kind of looking after me, the professionals here, you know, goodness, yeah, thank goodness. Like, because as, as good a job as these guys are doing, you know, tell it, yeah. And so, like, and it was a physical thing, you know. And she, you know, she was in the hospital bed or, or, you know, like, she, you could just see her whole body relax, like, Oh, good. Someone's gonna reassure me, or someone's gonna tell me what's, you know, what's going on. And also, you know, someone's gonna reassure them that you know, that everything's okay. So, yeah, that was, yeah, I think that was, that was a really, really big thing from us. Yeah, I'm curious what it's like for you, Charlie, when you're first meeting or going into the home of the patients and meeting the whanau, we get such different we're West Auckland, so we get so many different people, which is why we love. Of it, but also people at very different stages, some people that are quite early in their journey, and others that maybe, like Angela's case, had such a quick progression of things. What's on your mind when you go in? What some what do you do? Yeah, I guess with Angela as well, the like you said, the referral was, you know, straight after biopsy results and diagnosis. And the thought was that we had quite a bit of time ahead of us. So already, when you get a referral and you look through that clinical information, you're making a picture of, okay, this is what I'm expecting to see. These are probably the symptoms. This is how it's probably going to go based on previous experience. Have a look through mention of family and that kind of thing. But really, just have to go in with such an open mind, because you don't know what people's misconception or pre conception of hospices. You don't really know where they're at in their acceptance of a disease, what other sort of factors are going on and to influence that within their home, within their sort of social environment. So it can be a bit uncertain, I guess, because you don't really know what you're walking into. And I think for me, at those initial assessments, it really is just gathering information from I always go in, not assuming that people know what's written on my referral. Because sometimes they've been told things but they don't remember it. And I don't want to be going in and saying, so you've got this and this, and they're like, Mort so I always go in assume that we know nothing, and ask someone to tell me, okay, what has happened up until this point, tell me what's led to me being here, and then I can get an idea of how they're thinking about things, and then just learning what's important to them, What then is, what their life is, and then an opportunity to really explain our services and maybe just get rid of some of those misconceptions, I guess, yeah, yeah. And I remember a nurse saying to me one time that the first thing that they do when they go on is say what's important to you right now. And to me, that speaks to the whole it's about the person the and we're here on your terms, which, again, I wonder is another preconception that people think we're going to come in and take, yeah, and I think, and especially in that beginning part where, and a lot of, a lot of our journey was we don't, we didn't know what we what we didn't know, right? And so, and, and we also, we don't know how serious it is, like, obviously, you know the whole picture, yes, it's, yes, it's very serious. But, you know, we don't know what, what help she needs, you know, and, and I remember, you know, like the, you know, there was all the equipment that we needed, you know, the shower, the shower stuff, the, you know, the, I can't remember what it's called, The sliding shirt, the horn to the sliding sheet, or the hoist. That was an experience, the thing with wheels that goes over the toilet I can, oh, thank you, yeah, you know, so stuff like that. And we didn't have that stuff, you know, we didn't know that we needed that stuff or that it was available, and it was, it was quite It was amazing. Like, it was kind of like, okay, guys, this is what we're going to do. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And the stuff was there, like, you know, within, within days, you know, and it was like, Oh, okay. Like, great. Like, we can kind of start kind of getting used to what this is, and, and all of a sudden she's got a little bit more freedom, I guess. And, you know, and her safety and things like that are all kind of part of that. And so that was, yeah, so that was really, really cool, like, it just how quickly things happened, you know, it wasn't a case of, well, yeah, we might need this. And we, you know, yep, we'll sort that out. And two weeks later, there was, you know, it wasn't like that. It was just like, here's the things you need, here's the things that we've sorted for you, and they'll be here in a few days. And if it doesn't work, that's okay, we'll come and take it away and and it was, yeah, it was really, really good. So a lot of especially with Angela's situation and how quickly it was changing. How did you manage navigating that, Charlie? Because Angela wouldn't have been the only person that you were supporting and caring for at the time. What what is the life of a nurse look like in terms of your caseload and your work? It's very busy. Esther, I mean, I hardly see you in the office, so I'm assuming it's busy. I guess you have to prioritize Angela, to be honest, that from the day I met her, was a priority because I knew how unwell she was, and I could see her deteriorating quickly. And we have a range of patients on our service, some who are very. Be on there, like Angela, some who come onto our books even in the last days, and then some who are very stable, and we just sort of support them in the background. So prioritization is one, and trying to kind of keep ahead of things. So my feeling is visiting more frequently, so you can notice those changes in someone. Because I think when you're with someone all the time, you perhaps don't notice those little deteriorations. And then when we go in, we might think, oh, that doesn't look as she doesn't look as strong as she did last week, which doesn't seem to be moving so well. And I guess we have a wider team. It's not just me, it's not just the nurses. We have our social care team. We have our healthcare assistants who can help, you know, do some of the practical things at home. So it's not just on one person. And I think, always empowering people when they're at home to say, Look, don't assume. Don't wait for us to call you. Tell us if things are changing, like we think, no news is good news, but we are there 24/7 we've got that amazing support after hours on the phone with really good specialist nurses who can advise you. So yeah, I think it's making sure the team used as a whole Yeah, and that's in, and that's a big part of it is, is, yes, yes, she's changing, but, but I'm there every day, and so I don't, you know, I, I just didn't see it, you know, you know, kind of be a week later that you'd be like, Oh, that that doesn't seem right. And, you know, having, having you come in and, and having those, those kind of frank discussions, right? Like, hey, actually, yeah, we've gone from this and we're kind of progressing quite quickly. You know, I, and not everyone might appreciate that, but I really appreciate it. Just, you know, because of who I am, I would rather just be told, Hey, this is, this is the case. I assume that not everybody is. Yeah, you've got to gage it a you know, there's the sometimes those conversations have to be on the hope I wasn't too sort of honest, and sometimes you've got to just take it step by step and just sort of introduce the fact that things don't seem as good as they were before. And it really, and I think that's the the importance of as nurses, we have a caseload of people, and so you do get to know that person and that family, and you know how to pitch that those conversations, yeah? Because there's different some people want to know everything and want to be kept up to date, and others maybe would rather not know and just roll with the changes, right? Yeah, we're going to explore a little bit more in a future episode around Angela's changing condition, and particularly when she's starting to deteriorate to the point where we're entering her last days of life, and things really ramp up there. I'm curious to know, in hospice world, we talk a lot about goals of care and care planning, and so I imagine the initial assessment and those first few visits are where we're starting to really get a picture for our patients and our whanau around what's important, what are the goals? So the the main thing for Angela was, was us not seeing her suffer. So Angela's mum passed away and from stomach cancer, and that happened, she was diagnosed, and then two weeks later, she was she was gone, so, and it was from, from I wasn't there. But from what I understand, it was quite traumatic and stuff. So, so from the from the very beginning, from the time she was diagnosed, Angela was like, right? This is, this is my life now, and and I can't do anything to change it, and I just have to be as pragmatic as as possible. So, so that was a really big thing. And I think being at home, which was not only where she felt comfortable, it was also, you know, and we went to know this at the time, but we had such little time left, right, and so, so being at home was really important to her, because she felt safe, you know, her, her dignity and stuff was really important to her. And so, yeah, so those were the really, really big things. Her big thing was making sure that we were okay, you know, and that we were we were managing this, you very rarely, you know, did she get upset? And, you know, it was more, you know, making sure that that that we were okay. How? How common is that Charlie for the concern of the patient? To actually be making sure my family's okay. I think it's hugely common, and I think it's normal as a mother, especially, to worry about the impact of that situation on their family. And I've Yeah, I think that's very common, and I think that's part of someone's journey, I guess, is to working through that. So that's not sort of affecting them as they're deteriorating as well. Yeah, and I think it's, it's a very hard thing to to talk about, because it is going to affect people, watching the person they love deteriorate and change and enter into that final phase. There's no two ways about it. It is rubbish and and, yeah, you can't always change them. And there's the dignity side as well. When you're starting to care for them, you know you and became her caregiver as well as her husband. So there's balancing that relationship as well, yeah. And I think, I think, like, I say, Look, when, when you would come over, there was that relief, right? And I think, I think that was also part of it for her, was she was so worried about me, and, you know, in the kids and stuff like that. And so remember when we, when the when we organize the carers to come in, yeah, I know, knowing Angela, as I do, like, you know, to have someone come in and and shower her and and all of that kind of that was a massive, massive deal for her, and, and she didn't do that for her. She did that for she did that for us, you know, and, and that's what I mean, like when you would come in, I think it was relief for her that she didn't have to have us look after her, but also because she knew that that it would give us respite, you know, yeah, yeah. I think it would, if that relief that you saw in her was relief of all their getting some support as well. And because I think when you do get into that phase of needing external carers coming in, it's quite a change in your life, you know, it signals something has changed for Angela, but then it's also something very, very different to have someone come into your house to do those personal cares, and it didn't work out overly well for you guys, and I think that was probably a good test. And actually, you guys found out that actually it was better to do it yourselves, yeah, and, but yeah, I think she knowing Angela, as I did, it would have been that relief of, oh, okay, so that's one less thing found to worry about and to physically do as well. Yeah, yeah. It speaks to the fact that everybody is impacted by, you know, Angela had the diagnosis and was the one going through it herself, but there's that whole family around her also experiencing it and also going through it, and life happens as well. We talk hospice is quality of life, living every moment so trying to balance that you know, knowing you've got this finite time left with your loved one, and balancing that and spending that quality of time with her, doing the things she wants to do, while also adjusting to these changes of of her needs. Did you had a trip planned? I heard, yeah, so as soon as, as soon as she'd had her had her biopsy and stuff like that, her Angela's cousins set up a give a little page, that's what it's called. And, you know, we were kind of against the idea at first, and they were like, look, there's loads of people here that want to help. They don't know how to help. Some of them can't help in any other way, so you have to let us do this. We're like, Okay, that's cool. And like, was, it was overwhelming. It was, you know, the generosity was really overwhelming. And, you know, as soon as she was diagnosed, she was like, right, we're making memories. We've got to, you know, we've got to do something. And we were at the mall, and she's like, we're going on a cruise. Like, what do you mean? We're going on a cruise? She's like, they give a little money. We we're going on a cruise, right? Okay? Like, Well, I'm obviously not going to stop you, because no one's going to stop you. And we march into an unnamed travel agent and and she sits down and she and she tells the person, the. Story. This is, I've been diagnosed with this. I'm taking my family on a cruise. And the trail edge was just kind of like, okay, like, here we go. You're very matter, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and she was like, right? I've never been to the South Island, so the I don't care where the cruise goes, as long as it goes through the South Island. So okay, well, here we go. Here we go, this cruise. Would you like to upgrade? Yep, that's fine. We'll upgrade. So I think it got to like, like, $20,000 right? This, this cruise. And I'm like, I'm staying behind her, looking at the prices in this book. And I'm like, My Love, are you? She's like, this is what we're doing. Like, okay, I just put the book down. I'm like, whatever. And just there was it in. The guy was like, Okay, well, the cruise is in like, two months. Like, so you have to pay the deposit tomorrow. Oh, no, sorry. We have to pay for the whole thing the next day. And it's like, Okay, how much is it? Was $20,000 Oh, my God, we can get $20,000 Rob after the bank. Yeah, yeah. And so paid deposit and ready to go on this cruise and watching YouTube videos of kids. This is this cruise, like a 15 day cruise, you know, it was, it was nuts. She been on a cruise. No for, no, no, no idea if she was going to get seasick or or anything, you know, and she but, but that was it. You just weren't going to stop it. We'll, we'll sort it out. And she was like, I'm getting my KiwiSaver money. We'll just, we'll just sorted out, all right, and so, yeah, unfortunately, in all of the haste of booking, they forgot to mention that to go on a cruise, you'd need it's mandatory to have travel insurance, which someone with a terminal illness is not going to get. So there was a bit of a rigmarole around that, and we ended up not going on the cruise, unfortunately. But then then she decided, well, if I can't go on the cruise, I want to spa so within a week, we we had a we had a spa pool, and, yeah, it was, it was just like, you can't argue with her, yeah, but I think you know, if she wasn't sick, but she was in that mind frame, you were like, Okay, look just to, we're just going to do that, and that's fine. So, yeah, so we, we ended up with a spa pool. She got in it, she got in it. Yep, she got to, she got to go on it twice. Unfortunately, only twice, because we had the little, the little incident with the toenail, yeah. So I was reminding myself of that instance Aaron was, I think, helping Angela in the bathroom, or the shower, and He clipped her toenail. Well, yeah. I mean, there's putting a lot of blame on my shoulders there, but she put a lot she did, she getting her in the shower, and our shower was not fit for purpose. It was, yeah, and so I'm getting her into the shower, and I'm by this stage, and you know, like that hasn't been very long, but I'm having to hold her up and get her into the said supplied shower still and, and trying to wriggle her in and, and she goes to put her foot down, and she clips her toe on my foot. And I think by that stage, she was on chemo and stuff like that. So then they'll just pay you off. Yeah. And she was like, Ow, that was it. And I looked down and there's like, there's blood everywhere in the shower. I'm like, what has happened? She thought my toenails has come off. It was just so matter of fact, and so obviously she can't go on the spa with a with a missing toenail. But she told everybody, I bet she does, everyone to come in and apart. Why is your bandage on your toes wear and rip my toenail like, okay, that's not how that happened. Yes, it is okay. I can't go and inspire anymore. Yeah, yeah. So so she did. She, she did get to to go on it twice, and yeah, and she, she loved it. So was Angela when she was first admitted to hospice West Auckland. Was she still receiving treatment of any kind? Aaron, it was like three, as it started, like three or four days after our initial introduction to hospice. So she was going to, she was going to the hospital every day for her radiation, and she was doing, and she was doing chemo, oral chemo, yeah, from from home, so I was having to administer all of that as well as the steroids. And, yeah. Yeah, anti inflammatories and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah? And what was that treatment about? Charlie? Can you weigh in on it? Yeah, I suppose it. We talk about cancer treatment with a curative intent or with a palliative intent, and we knew for Angela that we that disease she had wasn't going to be cured, but the purpose of that was to try and slow down that growth and perhaps reduce the impact that was having on her day to day. And so I think when you're having palliative intent, you've got to sort of weigh up those pros and cons, haven't you? And when people are in that sort of treatment cycle and they just feel like they've got to keep going, but the side effects, perhaps are just awful, and nothing sort of changing in terms of symptoms. And then people start to perhaps make a decision about actually, is the payoff going to be worth it? Is, are the side effects of this worth what it's going to give me? And I think that's very hard for people, because with a curative, you know treatment, you know that you've got to slog it out, but yeah, the end result is going to be good, yeah, whereas it's very unknown with palliative. And I think for Angela, that was really clear, because the assumption was she'd have this treatment and then you that would buy her some quite good long time. And that wasn't the case at all, was it? And the undertaking of getting her into hospital every day to Auckland as well for radiotherapy, when she was becoming more and more, you know, poor mobility is just took its toll, didn't Yeah, and, I mean, it was, you're right, it was, it was getting hard and, you know, and kind of, as it kind of progressed, and she was scheduled to have six weeks, and this was to go over the kind of Christmas, New Year period, so it was all through summer and stuff like that. And, and we were having to go in the everyday, I think we got Christmas and boxing day off, which was nice, but as that kind of as as she kind of as the illness progressed so quickly, it kind of was taking two of us to kind of get there. The I guess the positive side for me is, you're right, like I knew that there was not going to, you know, there wasn't going to be a positive outcome, ultimately. But you always had, you had hope that, yeah, you know, it was, it was gonna kick in and, you know, and they said, you know you're gonna, you're gonna feel worse before you get better. And so you kind of had that hope, okay, yes, she's, she's getting worse, but that means that they're getting better is just around the corner. And then there's the the emotional side of it too, where we had so many people at our house all the time wanting to help and support and just come and see her and stuff like that. So moments to ourselves were few and far between, and those those those trips to the hospital were actually just time for me and Angela to to just be by ourselves. And, you know, and we got it to a point we had a little routine where, you know, we'd go and get a hot chocolate, and then we and I didn't, I didn't buy a hot chocolate one time, you knew. And it's, uh, not only did I know it, but when we went to radio, when we went to radio therapy, they were like, you know, we took her in and she's in a wheelchair. And they were like, Angela, how are you today? And you know, you spend, you know, every day for these people for an hour, and you know, amazing people, when they're just like, Angela, how are you? And she's like, Well, I'm not really well actually. And they're like, you know. And they obviously start thinking, Well, what's medically wrong with it? Oh, what's that? He didn't buy no hot chocolate. He said that I hadn't been a good girl. Was like, well, actually, we just didn't have time. Because, you know? And like, oh, wow, Aaron, that's, that's really terrible, if we show them the time. Terrible, yeah, oh, 100 you know, but, but it gave us those, you know, the drive to and the, you know, and even just those little moments when you, when you're when you're waiting, and thankfully, they run it pretty smoothly. You don't have to wait too long, but, you know, you'd be in the waiting room, and that was just time for us to sit. And I would always sit behind her, and I would, you know, just hug her while we were while we were waiting. And we had our own little, you know, wasn't ours, but you know, we had our own little area where we always went to and we always and we always sat and so that, you know you're going through this, this terrible, terrible thing, and but you're finding these little moments in the most random of places you know that that we get to have, that only, you know, only her and I get to have. And so, yeah, and it was. Yeah, it was really nice, so special to be able to find those important moments and what could have been, and probably was a really stressful event. What was the impact for you and Angela? You've got this treatment that's hoping to prolong things and improve things to a point, you know, it's not gonna fix her, but to then hear after three weeks, it's it's not, what's the impact on you? How do you cope with that? Well, I think that's kind of where you came in, right? Because, because it was you for me, like, I said before, like, I just want to be told, right? Like, it doesn't matter whether it's good news or bad news, I just want to know. And, you know, I think that's kind of takes a special kind of person to actually be like, This is what's happening. But, you know, and I get that not everybody wants you know, not everybody wants to know, but I wanted to know. And so you and I would have these discussions, you know, out of earshot of Angela, and I would be like, just, just tell me, what's where are we at? Because I, you know, I might not see it every day, but I could see that, you know, it was like, you're waiting for that moment. I was like, this moment isn't happening, you know. And so that's when I once he come to you and be like, just tell me, you know, I I gotta know what you know, what's going on, yeah. And I think that's the importance of knowing someone earlier on, yeah. And because it might have felt a little bit early that we were involved so close to her again in that diagnosis, but actually I was then able, hopefully to support you because we knew each other, and maybe that sort of supportive relationship was more meaningful than me coming in as the first time being like, Well, okay, this is what's happening. Yeah, and you know, I could kind of gage knowing you as a person by then, you know how to sort of have that conversation with you, yeah. And I going back to sort of what you said about hope, and Andrew, always wanting hope. I think that's so important. And in my role, I never want to squash hope and be like, Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. I don't know that. Yeah, and you know, we're all trusting that the the intention of the treatment was to have a good outcome, and so I suppose I'm my role is, yep, that's the path we're on. But if that doesn't help, and signs maybe indicate that it's not, then this is maybe what we need to prepare for. Yeah, you learn for the worst and hope for the best. Yeah. And I think hope is so important for people, for patients, for families, and we don't want that the presence of hospice to be the reason why people lose hope. We actually want to help them gain some more hope that they're going to be supported in that journey. Yeah. Yeah, and, yeah. And I don't think, I don't think Angela ever lost hope. I think, you know, when I look back now, I think, I think she knew, and I think that's why she was able to just be like the, you know, this is it. And I think, yeah. And I think that part of that, of the I don't want them to see me suffer, I think, you know, but like, and then we're getting a bit philosophical now, but part of me is also like, because of that, I wonder if that's why it happened so quickly. She hadn't given up hope, but she didn't want to drag it out, you know. And so, you know, they say that the you know, that your brain and your body is a powerful thing. And you know, if you want to fight something, you can fight something, yeah. And I'm not saying that she gave up, but I think part of her was like, I don't want to put them through this, you know. And hence, you know, the reason it potentially did that didn't go it, you know, we had multiple prognosis we had, you know. And that's not how it, you know, and that's not how it played out. And nobody thought that that's how it was gonna there's gonna play out. Yeah, I always remember that she didn't want that final stage to be protracted, you know, if this is what was going to happen, then I think she just wanted it, wanted it to be done, really, didn't she? She, you know, the suffering, I think, for her, was the length as well of that period of not being out of care for herself, and not being able to communicate and those kinds of things. Yeah, it's really important for her. Yeah, absolutely. And with Angela, and how quickly things happened for her that speaks to me about the importance of taking those small moments that you had to treasure with her. You know, waiting in a waiting hall, buying a hot chocolate, or being absolutely roasted or not buying new one. You know, taking those small moments. It's a treasure. Is so important, but also really hard to do. Yeah, I know it's like, it's I always, you know when I, when I look back at it, you know which I do pretty much every day, it's like it was the, the worst thing that that could happen to us, like, can I like, you don't you don't get much worse, right? But out of that were also some of the best moments that, you know, that that we had, yeah, just yeah, get on light in the darkness, you know, kind of thing, you know. And those will just live with me forever. Yeah, and I think that's probably a good time for us to wrap up. So thank you, Charlie for joining us today. In the midst of all of this, there's four kids as well, so we've talked a lot about yours and Angela's experiences. Next episode, we are hoping to bring in our creative arts therapist, Catherine, and we're going to talk about how you navigated this with the kids. It's a huge question, what do we tell them? How involved do we get them in caring for Angela, but balancing? How do we make sure that they're supported and protected as well. Thanks for joining us. You.