Episode Nine - Learning to Live Without Her

In this final episode, Aron reflects on life after Angela’s passing and what it truly means to “move forward” rather than “move on.” Together with guest Amy, Palliative Care Counsellor at Hospice West Auckland, they explore the many layers of grief, healing, and hope:

- The types of bereavement support available for those who are grieving, and how Hospice West Auckland continues to walk alongside families after their loss.
- Aron’s perspective on continuing life while honouring Angela’s memory.
- The small but meaningful gestures that bring comfort and help in coping with loss.
- The significance of finally taking a holiday together one year later, and what it represents for their healing journey.

Thank you for listening!

https://www.hwa.org.nz/

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:04

On October 17, 2023 the bright more family's world was turned upside down when at the age of just 44 a tumor was found in Angela's brain. One month later, they were introduced to the world that is hospice. This is Angela's story, walking the final path together a hospice West Auckland podcast. Hello and welcome to episode nine. And the previous episode, we spoke with Dr Celia, and we said our goodbyes to Angela. Today, we are joined by Amy, who's one of our counselors here. Welcome Amy, thanks for joining us. Kia. Ora Kelly, Amy, talk to us about what your role is here at Ask West Auckland. So I'm on the social care team, and I'm one of the counselors here. I work equally with patients and people who are grieving in their family, if needed, we run groups here so facilitate bereavement groups and patient groups. And Aaron, you've been supported by Amy through, through this, this journey of yours. How did you guys first get connected? Um, I think it was probably Angela passed away in January. I think by kind of March, I think I was kind of like, this isn't going great, you know, I kind of didn't really know what was going on. Things kind of didn't really make sense all of that kind of thing. And, you know, was I grieving in the right way? Was, you know, was I looking after the kids in the right way? You know, I had a really big fear, you know, that now that Angela wasn't here, was I the right person to look after the kids and all of that kind of stuff. So obviously, throughout initial conversations with hospice, I knew that, you know, that that support was ongoing for not just me, but the kids and and stuff like that. And so, yeah, I just reached out to hospice, and I was like, Hey, I, you know, I kind of need something here. So what you know? What can we do? Yeah, and so it's a couple of months, maybe one or two months after, yeah, you've said your goodbyes to Angela, yeah. Is that fairly normal, Annie, in your experience, that sometimes it's it's not until a little bit later that people are reaching out for support? Yeah, I think it varies. Sometimes people engage in the support before their person has passed away, and sometimes it's after. Usually, you know, we would do a follow up phone call and touch base, but you know, there's that idea that to let those natural networks and, you know, support, be with the person first. You know that, that we don't need to jump in there. So, yeah, somewhat common, and to to reach out after a little while, yeah, I think that you were maybe seeing someone. Yeah, yeah. I had, like, yeah. I'd kind of been seeing someone just, just through work as well and but kind of wanted something a bit more specific to, you know, to what was happening. So obviously, when I reached out, but I think I've touched before about, like, you know how everyone would say, when we were going through all of this, you know, you got to look after yourself. And I would be like, well, I've got plenty of time for that after and so I think, I think once she, once she was gone in, you know, that was that moment that was like, whoa. Actually, this is now a thing, you know, and I haven't really had time to think about what this is going to be like after, because I was so in the moment. So, yeah, there's like, this big wave of like, oh, this is just you by yourself now, yeah, talk to me about Aaron the in the previous episode, we had the funeral where we we said, you said you could buy us to Angela, we talked about what that process was like for you. And then Amy, you've touched on that, that kind of bridge between all the natural support, family, friends are around you, because it's really, it's really in the moment for them, what was that experience like for you? Because I imagine you've you're grieving, you're processing what's going on, but you've also got family, friends around you going through similar things, yeah, like we talked about, you know, the amazing support that that we had, you know When Angela was you know, when Angela was sick? The winter was just always people in our house and stuff like that. And kind of, I guess, just occurs naturally from kind of the after day after the funeral onwards, that just gradually gets less and less, you know, as people, kind of, as everyone else kind of returns to to normal life, you know. And I think like that. For me, like that happened quite quickly, you know, try not to take it personally, but, you know, you kind of just this mixed bag of emotions, right? You know, I and so you go from having, like, all of these people come and make dinner and do whatever they can to help, which is great, but then, you know, eventually they do have to return to to their normal lives. And you're, you know, and you're kind of left picking up the pieces because your normal life doesn't exist anymore, you know. And so, you know, I remember, like, all of a sudden, you know, like it happened near the end of the school holidays. And now I've now got that admin to deal with, and there's not two of us, you know, doing that. And like, Angela and I would kind of split the Christmas holiday, so I would do the first three weeks, and she would do the second three weeks, and, you know, to get the kids through, and then she would do the uniform and the stationery and stuff like that as kids went back to school. And now it was like, Oh no, like that, that I've got to do that now and then. But then also just the normal things, you know, and I remember, like in it still is a little bit now, like just cooking dinner. Cooking dinner was a real was a really big trigger for me. And I would, because of Angela's working hours, I would normally cook dinner. She would kind of get everyone ready in the morning, and I would do the the dinner and stuff at night. And for a long time that was really triggering, because I would, I would go to cook dinner, and my brain would instantly go, right, well, it's, you know, it's 530 or six o'clock or whatever, she's going to be home soon. He'd be like, no, she not. She's not coming home. And so, so that was really, really hard, to the point where I was, I was really, really lucky that my that my son, Maddie, just picked up on that, picked up on that. I I just couldn't, I couldn't do it, you know, like it. I just couldn't function that way. And so he would just appear at six o'clock and he would start making dinner. And, you know, it was 1617, at the time, and, you know, and he, I didn't ask him to do that. I didn't, you know, I didn't tell him or anything like that. He just picked up on it, and was like, This is what I'm going to do to, you know, to help Dan, whether he did it subconsciously or, I don't know, but, yeah, he, he just took over, and he still, he still does it. Now, it's kind of got a little bit easier, and I, you know, and I do it a lot more now, but he's kind of got into this routine of just doing it. But, yeah, initially, like, you know, it was little things like that, but it just quickly disappears, you know, it kind of, it's a really quick drop off from, you know, kind of all of these people to very quickly, you know, just not many people at all, and that's okay, like, that's not, you know, they're not being mean or anything like that. And, you know, and you're appreciative of all the support that you got. It's just, everyone has to return to their normal life. It's just your life isn't your normal. Isn't what you what you're used to, what's normal now, yeah, yeah. So much adjusting, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when you came it was, it was early days, and, you know, so it was, it was raw, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, and like, I said, like, all those, like, all those just little things, like, how am I going to get the kids to school? You know, how am I going to pick the kids up? How does that work with me working and and stuff like that. And so you're still trying to process that your person is gone and in function and function, but, but life, you know, like, as much as everyone else's life carries on, your life has to carry on too. And you know, I I always say, like, I know that there's lots of people out there, you know, single parents that do that stuff all the time, and, you know, and I take my health to them, but that wasn't, that wasn't my life, you know. And so it took a whole bunch of adjusting to kind of get that to work and, you know. And I still very lucky that there are, you know, still have friends and family that are willing to just, you know, jump in when they can and and we know when we need and help out. But yeah, it's a really big adjusting period, just for the life admin. So like you said, alongside the emotions of it, you've got this adjustment period where life is moving on, but you're having to figure out how to move on with out your soul mate. And part of that. Becomes the relationship and the emotions in it, but also the practicalities when you've got kids as well. Yeah, yeah. Amy, I think people often think about grief as a process, or, you know, there might be a right or a wrong way to grieve. What's your comments on that? Yeah, and we've talked about that quite a bit as well. Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, it can be validating to for a person who's grieving, especially in the early stages of grief. You know that it that there are some, yeah, common, common experiences. You know that it can feel really disorientating, that it can feel exhausting, that it can be quite physical, yeah, you could have brain fog. It can be reassuring, perhaps, to know that you're not losing your mind, so that you know, but there is, yeah, no normal or abnormal grieving, I imagine not everybody that loses a loved one needs counseling support as well. There are different, you know, we go through grieving, but not everybody needs counseling support, yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah. And I guess that can depend on, you know, the supports that they already have in place. Or, you know, it can, I mean, I'd like to hear your perspective on this too, like what indicated to you that that could be helpful, useful, but I think that it's, it can be around, you know, the stage in life as well, and what, what you're currently faced with, you know, current or past challenges and difficulties, previous losses, trauma can do with, you know, your own thinking and core belief, those kind of processes, family of origin, stuff. So, you know, lots kind of comes into, maybe, what, why someone might reach out. I think, like, for me, as we establish, we've done a podcast of nine episodes of listening to me talk like, that's how I deal with things, right? I need to kind of get things out so, like, it makes sense for me, and it's, you know. And it's been really, really helpful. It's, you know, but you know, interesting to get your thoughts. But I, like, no one's, no one's journey is the same, you know. Like, there's all of these little things that I do that initially I thought were, you know, my brain would be like, Why are you doing that? That's stupid, what you know and and so I kind of beat myself up about it. Be like, That's dumb. Why are you doing that? And you and I would talk about some of those things, and then I would be lucky enough to talk to someone that was going through the same thing, and they'd be like, Oh, well, I do this. And I'm like, wait a minute. I do that, like, okay, and there's like this, this justification, and you know that what you're doing is kind of okay, because, because, unless you've kind of been through it before, you know you you have no idea. And so, so, like, for me, i This way I am as a person, I second guess everything that I do. So this just kind of heightened that. So, you know, I thought everything I was doing was wrong, you know, was I grieving enough? You know, was I grieving too much? You know, the big one that stands out for me is the chocolate bar in the fridge. And you and I have talked about this at length. There's a block of Whittakers chocolate in the fridge that somebody, and I don't know who somebody bought for Angela, when, when she was sick, and it's set in our fridge, and it's still there, you know? And every time I open the fridge door, I see it, I'm like, There's Angela's chocolate, and it's just a little reminder. And I and, you know, people, I'd have people say, Why have you, why have you kept that? Does that seems, that seems stupid. And you like, I don't know. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's hers, you know, and, and, funnily enough, I came across something on Instagram where someone had said it put a photo of their fridge, and it was like, here's the, here's the bottle of soda that my dad, that's the last bottle of soda he drank. It's still in the fridge, and he's been gone three years, you know? And it's like, oh, okay, well, it's not just me, that's, yeah, it's not just me, that's, you know, that that's doing that. And then like, the other, you know, the other, the other side of it is, is like Angela's clothes. So Angela's clothes are all in the wardrobe, or they're in her drawers. They all just where, you know, where she left them. And, you know, and I've been asked, you know, when am I when am I going to. Get rid of them. Well, because of who I am, well, I'm not that's, that's just what's going to happen. But I also know of people that are, like, within a week of the person passing away, they're like, the stuffs got to go, you know, it's, it's too much for them and and things like that. So like, yeah, there is. There's no right way, right I couldn't turn around and say, Oh, that's terrible that you're getting rid of their stuff already, because that's how that's how they're dealing with it. That's not how I deal with it, but that's okay. That's what so lots of talking about helps figure out what the right process is. Yeah, for you, yeah. Just hearing you talk about the Instagram and books that you've ordered or read, you know that you found a lot of support and comfort and normalizing through the those kind of resources, which often, you know, we running bereavement groups, you get that that normalizing of, Oh, I do that too, or okay, I Yeah, all right, that's that's happening to me. That's happening, yeah? Okay, yeah, yeah. Can be helpful. Yeah. I can imagine it as quite you know, I'm sitting here listening to you as well, Aaron, saying that you're you question everything and how that would be such a mind game for you, and I do this action. And is that, am I grieving enough? Am I moving on too quickly? Am I Is this the right or wrong way to do something? But is there a right or wrong way? Doesn't sound like there is. It's what, what you need to do to, you know, to cherish or to go through your grieving process. And I think like, and all of the stuff that you get, that you get told by, by family and friends and stuff like that, is all well meaning. No one's saying things to you to be me, to be mean, or, you know, or whatever. But you do get like, people say a lot of things to you that are like, you're like, a you've not been through this, you don't, you don't know what this is like. And, you know, and I haven't had too many of them, but, you know, but I've had a few of, like, you know, the pretty standard ones are, you know, she's in a better place. Yeah, that's cool, but I'd rather she was here, you know, like, that stuff's kind of not, you know, those kinds of things aren't helpful, you know. And again, they're well intended, but, but they're not helpful, you know. And so I place a lot of, like, lot of emphasis on, on, you know, people that have been through this when, when they say something to me, yeah, that's cool. And, and you do have to do a lot of like, thanks. I'll, you know, I'll take that on board kind of situation, or just assumptions around timings and how long things take. And, yeah, like, and for a long time, especially in that first year, it was like, Oh, the first must be really hard. The first must be really hard. Well, we're into some seconds now, and they're not any any easier. You know, in fact, my experiences is that the going back to talking about that support and stuff that was there as the years go on, that gets kind of less and less and there's, there's kind of this, and again, no one says this, but there's kind of this thing where it's like, okay, well, from, you know, from January, 20, you know, a year after, that's it, you've got to be better now, and you've got to, you know, and, and so What, what I've found is, is that the second year has has been, you know, a lot harder, a lot I guess lonelier would be, you know, you kind of, now you are doing this by yourself. And so it's, but it is what it is, right? It's the rest of the world is, you know, as is moving on there. So for somebody like me who is maybe wanting to support you or support somebody that I love, that's going through their grave, I know a little bit about maybe what not to say. Do you guys have any tips in terms of what I could say or do, to give them comfort, to show them that I care, but also not give you advice, tell you to move on, tell you how to agree, or when you know what, well definitely what brought you comfort, or What was helpful for you, what could be helpful does, I think for me, there's kind of, there's, there's two things. Is you don't have to say anything I you know, like, and I think that kind of applies to just the world in general, right? If someone has a problem and they're going to talk to you about it, they don't, they're not. Really talking to you about it because they want your advice. They might, they'll, you know, if they want it, they'll ask for it. But generally, what happens is, you talk and they'll talk and talk and talk, and by the end of it, they go, actually, I've just figured that out myself, and I didn't, I just needed to vent, right? Yeah, it's kind of the same, like, you know, unless I'm talking to someone that that has been through it, and I ask for their opinion. I think, like the best thing to do is just listen and and then the other side is, is asking me about her, talk about her, you know. And I find that, you know, I find that it doesn't happen so much. And I, you know, I've, I've kind of been in situations where, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to shoehorn her into a situation or anything. But there might be something happened that I might, ah, you know, Angela and I did that, and this is what happened and and a chance to, kind of like, have a conversation about her and things like that. And people just kind of go, Oh, cool. And then, and that's it, you know. But like, yeah, like, I, I'm happy to talk about it, you know. Like, I back in, we're 90% of talking about her, you know, like, and I love talking about her, and, and that's really, really helpful. It keeps it to me. It keeps her memory alive. And, you know, we talk about her a lot at home, because, you know, especially for for Taylor, who's, you know, nearly 11. You know, that's how, that's how she gets to remember Angela. So, you know, I'm not scared of talking about her. And yeah, I might, you know, I might get upset, but that's okay. Like, you know, I'd rather that than just nobody talk about her. So yeah, like, those would be the the two things are, just, just listen and and allow us to talk about her, or, you know, or you talk about her. Like, that's even better, you know, because it means that actually, it's not just me holding on to her memory all the time. You know this, someone else was thinking about her too. Yeah, there's theories, ideas, you know, around like continuing bonds theory and remembering practices, and this is what Aaron's talking about, yeah. And you know that people maybe are, well, you know, anxious, or, you know, they're a bit awkward and they're not quite sure. They don't want to mess up or make a mistake. They're tentative, you know. But you and a lot of people want to talk about your person, and they want to know, maybe you can still find things, or, you know, a grieving person can still find out new things about them by other people sharing memories, which add to this, who Angela, who the person is? Yeah. Do you think we sometimes it's that elephant in the room, and maybe we're a bit scared to say, like you said something, I don't want to make you cry. Yeah, I don't want to upset you. And that could be the discomfort around that we have, like, culturally, around, you know, emotions and sadness and and that being with sadness, or being, you know, being alongside somebody who is grieving, and that you don't really have to say too much. And I think, and because, and this has kind of happened to me, you know, especially in the last few months, is, is, as that kind of happens, I stopped talking about her because I don't, because then it becomes, well, I don't want to make other people uncomfortable. And so then I stopped talking about her and and I said, before, like, but that's how I deal with things, right? Is about, is talking about her and talking about things in general and then, but because the kind of table kind of turns and you're like, Well, I now I feel that. I don't want to make you feel awkward, so I'm not going to talk about her because, you know, so let's just not say anything. And that's, you know, that's kind of the worst thing, but it's like you're just going to get into this kind of standoff where you don't want me to feel awkward, and I don't want you to feel awkward, so let's just not say anything. Yeah? So, yeah, let's just be awkward. And I imagine you know that you said you're into the year twos, is there part of your head that's going well, like, you know, they're gonna think of me as not moving on, or I'm not moving right, because I'm still talking about her, but I would imagine 40 years from now, you're still gonna want to be talking about Angela, because she was so significant for you and for a lot of people, yeah, 100% and again, like that, self doubt starts creeping in right where you're like, why am I doing this wrong? Am I meant to just have this year period where I get kind of grace, and then everyone's like, okay, mate, like, you need to get over this now. Like, you know, you. Uh yes, but you're right. Like, if I'm not, you know, if I am here 40 years and I and I'm and I'm not thinking about I'll be really upset, you know, yeah, but that's you just want to talk about them, yeah? Bring her with you, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. Bring her with you, and we talk a little bit about this moving on. Aaron, you've said to me before, you think of it more as moving forward. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know why, but moving moving on. I just don't like the term, like, it's like, for me, moving on kind of feels like, here's this one point in my life, and that has Angela in it, and I'm moving on from that now, you know? And because I think we, yeah, maybe it comes from, like, relationships and stuff, right? You know, I'm going to move on from my from my ex. I'm going to leave that in the past, and and that's the last thing that I, you know, that I want to do is leave her in the past. And I said, I want to take her with me. And so, yeah, so my she's moving forward, you know, and have, I've said to you before I had my mentality around this at the moment is she's not here physically, like I don't, I don't have her physically, but emotionally. She, you know, she's, she's still here. You know, we, we didn't break up the you know, the relationship didn't end or or anything like that. You know, we didn't get to choose what happened. So, yeah, she's she's emotionally she's still here. She's still, you know, part of our every day I'm thinking as well, you've you're going through this grieving process. You're working through it, questioning everything. Is this normal? Is this not but you've got kids as well who are going through it. And I know in a previous episode, we talked with Catherine, our creative arts therapist, who supported Taylor a little bit. I'm just wondering, Aaron, how do you manage admin grieving? Yeah, kids grieving and supporting them through it, and also keeping Angela as a as a presence. Like, to be honest, I don't when it, when it came to the kids, like we kind of touched on this, like you said with Catherine, I don't it was, it's hard to tell, you know, they're at ages. They're at different developmental ages where, you know, they're kind of all over the show anyway. And so it was quite hard to tell, if I'm honest, especially in that kind of six month period. I don't think I, I don't think I supported them very well at all. I think it was very much the other way around. Where they were. They very much supported me. You know, I would, I would kind of take myself away to the bedroom, and I think we've talked about this before, and Taylor would be at the door waiting for me. You know, at the funeral, she was the one rubbing my back and, you know, and stuff like that. So, yeah, that was, that was a hard one. But in terms of, like, you know, she's all like, we're always just able to talk about her. There's never, you know, there's never a time below. We don't, we don't talk about that. And, you know, and I understand that, obviously some people won't want to do that, but in our house, she's very much, you know, she's very much a part. There's photos of her everywhere. You know, her ashes are in a in a nice basket and stuff in the lounge. So you know, that she's not hidden away or or anything like that. So, you know, I talked about Taylor and I and our little routine that we say good night to her every night and in stuff like that. So she's very, very much a part of of what we do. And every time there's a, you know, if it's Mother's Day or it's birthdays and stuff like that. Like, initially, like they were really, really hard, obviously, emotionally. But I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to kind of celebrate them in a in a certain way, but it was quite like, it was quite hard to do, which is not here, you know, because we, you know, we have lots of little traditions, but they that are involved her being here. And so now it was like again. This our new normal is we still want to celebrate those things, but how do we do that? Because she's not here, but, you know, we found little way we do things that, that we know, that, that, that she would like. You. Know, we and the kids are involved in those things and and stuff like that. So, yeah, because, well, in terms of supporting the kids, you know, you maybe that those first six months you're saying felt, you know, pretty, pretty raw, pretty rough, but you had people around as well. Do you support you like your dad would pick her up and take tater cheerleading and, you know? So just the recognition that maybe, if you weren't able to be there so much, you had things in place too, that she, you know, she would go stay with aunties and Angela's friends and, yeah, have days out and things like that with other people. So sharing, sharing, you know, takes a village, yes, in there as well, 100% and, you know, and without those people like, you know, I said, like Angela's dad, you know, picks Taylor up in the morning and takes her to school and picks her up after school, and and stuff like that, like that just is, just makes my life so much easier, you know. And you know, I send in Angela's friends coming and taking Taylor to do mum things, and, you know, and in Taylor Does, does cheerleading. And, you know, I don't know the first thing about putting makeup on or doing high ponytails or anything like that. So, you know, there's, there is that, you know, where people would be like, well, we can do that. And it's really, you know, and so it's really come so maybe ways we can help, as well as, how can we help you with looking after the family and taking some of that burden off of you while you focus on what you need. And I think that's just a continuation of the practical stuff that we talked about while, you know, while she was, while she was sick, you know, the practical stuff still carries on, you know, yeah, is just, you know, continue to do those things. Amy, I know you've said towards the beginning that you support not only our families, but the patients that come into our care as well. And Aaron, I'm not sure if Angela had counseling support, no, we didn't. Kind of time didn't really allow for it, yeah. How does that look when you are supporting the people that are under our care. So it can either be they can come in to where we are, or we can go to their home. They might want to come along to a patient group where they're meeting people that may be going through similar things as then. So sometimes that connection, and again, validation of their experiences emotionally and what they're thinking, sometimes they just talk about medication. I think they can be, you know, just all those other practical bits and pieces as well. I suppose, you know, there's lots of things that go on for someone as they get diagnosis, or their body starts to change, you know, that's that, that they're grieving the loss of what they've been able to do. Or, you know, their identity changing in, you know, and just processing what, what they're experiencing, can be really useful to to do that, to talk to someone who, sometimes, you know, it'll be with loved ones. And again, we really encourage that, you know, which often people won't need patients, won't, you know, people won't need counseling because they do that with their loved ones, their family, though, in the same way that all people grieve differently, you know, because it's a grief, right, that people are experiencing as they're ill and becoming unwell, or, you know that they it can be helpful to talk to someone Who's objective, you know, to really unload that with somebody else who can contain and hold it and be there with them. Because some people talk about not wanting to burden. Yeah, that can be a theme for people. But I would often, you know, if it's, you know, I'd never push anyone in any direction, but you know, suggest or invite. You know, would it be useful to talk to your partner, husband, child, about what you're experiencing and, you know, I can be there if you want to do that. Or you know, so I think it's always about what works best for the person, and thinking about the family as a system and a dynamic, and we're outside of that. But how can we support interlinking, yeah as well, yeah, and you're right that that grief can you know it is grief for that person with the diagnosis as well, right? So not only. You supporting the person, but the family around as well. We're all going through these changes and at different paces and hits them in different ways and times and yeah, so what got you into this line of work? Because I can't imagine that's always easy. Yeah, I think I struggle to answer that question, you know, because it, it's felt like work I've always wanted to do. It's, there's, there's some kind of knowing, or I'm drawn to it that that this is such special work, you know that someone at such a point in their lives, whether that be someone who's grieving or a patient who's at the end of their life, you know that that they're opening up, that they are allowing somebody into that space. It's a sacred space. It's a precious space, you know, so I treat it with reference, you know, it's, it's a huge, hugely special job to have. So, because talking about death and dying is taboo quite a bit, and a lot of cultures, we then maybe think we're a little bit odd, because we're interested in and, and it's not that we're interested in, Deb, you're not sitting there going, Oh no, someone dies today. That'd be really good, yeah, in a macabre way, but yeah, it's, it's, it's something that's, we know that's all that's going to happen to all of us, yet we don't talk about it. And so I think that that also feeds into the awkwardness around knowing what to do or having processes that can support us, you know. And when I say we, I mean, I'm talking from, you know, Pakeha Western, you know, person from Aotearoa, but yes, there's lots of places and people that do have processes, they can be really holding and supportive. So yeah, it's, but we've, we talked about it When Angela was, you know, planning her funeral. And then was, you know, people were like, Oh, what do you mean? You know, like, so there was that whole, like, there's kind of this period where it's like, we all know this is happening, but we shouldn't talk about it. And, you know, and we should all just keep our heads down and our mouths shut, and we'll just get on with it. We all know that it's coming because, you know, I said it happens to all of us, but we're not going to talk about it. And that's like, and what would happen if we did, you know, like, how would that make things different, change that for the person or the family involved to be able to have those conversations, yes, and for people to be able to ask you know about your person and or do you think by not having Those conversations, that can impact our grief as well? I uh, yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah, I'd like again. Maybe it depends on the person, right? Like, I'm a like, I said I'm a talker, Angela. Angela isn't a talker, you know. So we didn't spend lots of she didn't spend lots of time talking about how she was feeling and how she was, you know, because it's, it's pretty, I would imagine it's pretty daunting. Knowing that you know that this is that this is the end like that terrifies me, right? But she, she and I said this when we talked to Celia like she almost was. She was the bravest one, right? And she let us express our emotions. And she just, you know, she had her little moments, you know. And they were little quiet moments, and you know, we would be, we would be lying there, and she, you know, and she would, she would have a little cry. And you know, I would ask her, what was, you know, what was wrong? And you know, there was times where, you know, she would, she said, You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sad because I'm just going to go to sleep, and you guys are going to be left here. And you know, you know, she got upset about, you know, the things that she was going to miss out on, and things like that, but, but those moments were kind of few and far between. But that's just who, that's just who an engineer is. Whereas I would be like, I'm scared out of my mind, and I would, you know, and I would voice that stuff pretty, pretty strongly. I think he does that whole different right or wrong way. You know, does the impact grief? Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, you know, it's just doing what feels the right thing for you. But I suppose being open and. That there's invitations or spaces where people can, and that they know that they can, yeah, if they want to. And I think that's I think, and I was just going to say that the exact same thing, I think, like, if you're someone that is going through what, what we've been through, and this is really rich of me to say, because I've not done this at all, and I'm very good at this. And not, you know, do as I say, not as I do, but like, There literally is no right or wrong way. Like, if you want to do something, just do it. You know, if you don't want to do something, don't do it, you know, like, that's that's okay, because nobody else you know. It's your it's your journey, just like it was Angela's journey, and how she dealt with it was how she dealt with it. Is it the way I would have dealt with it? Probably not, but I don't know, because I'm not, I wasn't in that situation. I've not been in her situation. Maybe I would deal with it like that, but it and then I guess my journey now is, is my journey, and it's taken, you know, a long time for me to even, like, Amy's probably sitting here going, we could have saved so much time if you just said that in the beginning. But like, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. If you do want to do it, do it. Nothing is stupid. Nothing is you know, you're not dumb for doing something. And if, you know, if, if I'm still crying because a song comes on on the radio, and in three years time. Like, that's okay, and I'm okay with that. And, and like, I think also, like, that's to me, it's a bit of, like, I don't know, kind of now, so it might sound a bit sadist, but like, like, being upset about it sometimes makes me feel a bit better, you know, you and I have talked about the roller coaster, right? And, and I sometimes get to a point where I know that I need to have a really, really big cry, but I don't want to get on the roller coaster, you know, I know. And we call it the roller coaster because you're standing in the queue watching everybody get to go on the roller coaster. And it's really terrifying while you're on it, but then you get off and you go, Oh, okay, well, actually, we've done that now we, we don't, you know, we don't have to do it again, but if we do, we know what to expect. But that's, you know, it kind of just, it is what it is. And like no one, no one can tell you what to do or how to do it, you know, they can, you know, if I guess, unless they've been through it, you know that that would be the other side. But even then, you know, your journey is different to their journey. Sorry, yeah, it's a great internal voice. I do that was coming, sounding good. Sounds like you've been supported pretty well. Yeah, look, and you know, and I know that, you know you're sitting right next to me, and you know I'm not, you know, I'm not just saying this because you're because you're here, but I have like, I wouldn't, you know, like I wouldn't have been able to do this, you know. And you know when I, when I first met Amy, and you know that first few months after we probably, we couldn't really have conversations, because I couldn't hold it together, you know, which was okay, you know, Amy was like, for sakes, can you just stop crying for two minutes slowly, you know, you know. So, yeah, like, that's, that's a big part of, you know, why I'm here, you know. And, yeah. And I owe you everything you know, like, you know, and I'm not even overstating that you know, like, yeah, and I know you're not going to take that at all, but you should, yeah, having the space is a him, having the holding, yeah, where you can work, where you can be and do and express whatever it is that yeah needs to, needs to come out. Yep. 100% Yeah, yeah. Finally, Aaron, we talked, I think we talked in an earlier episode about the trip that you and Angela and the family had planned when she first got diagnosed, and I understand you guys as a family, went and did that trip earlier this year. Yeah. So we had the we had the cruise that the, well, the cruise that wasn't and so the. The next option was we, because Angela's main aim was to get to the South Island. She'd never been to the South Island, so we're like, great, we're going to go to the South Island five days. This is what we're going to do. Unfortunately, you know, because of the time frame, she didn't get to do that either. So I so I was like, well, we have to do it for her, you know, she, she's not, you know, she's not here to do it, but, but we're going to do it. And so I was very, very lucky that I had a very good friend of mine, his wife, organized the whole trip for us with an itinerary. And because I'm terrible at that stuff, we would have probably not even ended up in the South Island, or we would have ended up but she planned the whole thing, accommodation, everything. So it was fantastic. And me and the four kids went to we went to Queenstown or to Tiana. We did all the touristy things and stuff like that, which was, which was amazing. But there was also this, you know, this kind of sadness to it too, right? Because she's not there, you know, and, and that kind of, you know, during the day was like, we're doing activities. And, you know, and you'd be like, she would love this, you know. But it was like, I almost was like a glorified tour guide, you know. And I had to round up four kids by myself, and, you know, and, and they're all kind of doing their own thing and stuff like that. And I didn't have her there to, you know, at the end of the night, be like, Oh, that was cool, you know. And that was stressful. And, you know, just that little debrief, because the kids would just kind of disappear off to their rooms, like, you know, like they do, and then you're like, Ah, okay, I'm on my own again now, and, and she should be here, and she would love it, but look, it was, yeah, it was amazing. And we, and we got to do it, you know, we got to do it through the generosity of our friends and things like that. So, yeah, it was, it was really great, and hopefully memories that the kids will, you know, will remember forever. But yeah, let's come sounds bittersweet. Yeah, that's the Yeah. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. It's just Yeah. We just never got the chance to get her there. Yeah, I really love the way you've talked about how you keep, you know, the small things that you do to keep Angela with you, the chocolate bar in the fridge, the ritual that you and Taylor have to say good night to her every night, and that concept that you're moving forward, but you're moving forward with Angela, and I think acknowledging that it's, I don't, I can't imagine that's ever going to be easy, but that in time, it's something that gets a bit easier knowing you've still got her, Her legacy, and her very much alongside with you. Yeah, and like, I don't know if we've talked about this before, but I write to her every nine like, and I and I, and I told her that I was going to do that, you know, when she was here, I said, I'm going to write to you. And sometimes that, you know, sometimes it's just about stuff that we've done during the day, or something that they that the kids are doing, or whatever. Sometimes it's just about how I feel. And you know, and especially in that first six months and I I wrote. I started writing the the day, the night of the of the funeral, and I've written to every day since then. And I like, I think, I think it helps, you know. Like, I'd hate for anyone to read them. They'd be like, That's the ramblings of a crazy person. But like, you know. And some days they're, you know, it's really good stuff and you know. And sometimes, sometimes it's not, you know, you know, sometimes I'll write to her and say, I, you know, I'm thinking about doing this, or, you know, stuff like that. And I'll and I'll write it down, and I'll say, I need your help. You know, I need you to, you know, me, and I wake up in the morning, I'll be like, that's what needs to happen. Or I actually know that's not a good idea, and I'm not cool. That's, you know, that's great. So, yeah, they're just, you know, I think all, but they've got no kind of reason to stop, you know, I think it makes me feel a little bitter, and I get to kind of debrief the day with, you know, with her. So, yeah, so it kind of helps. When you say it helps, you think it helps. It's like, it's like to stay connected with years, and it sounds like still making decisions, yes, here and those Yeah, and debriefing and things that you would normally do, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, that was our, you know, we didn't make decisions without each other, you know. And so, and. It, and that's a that's been a big adjustment as well. But you know, so writing that stuff down is has been really, really helpful. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Thank you, Amy, for joining us today. That brings us to the end of this episode and our season of Angela's journey. Aaron, you've spoke a few times in the episode with our special guests, and the amount of support that you've had from people and you wanting to to almost give them that feeling of gratitude, yeah, and I think that this is where I would like to do that. Back to you, because I think I can't imagine that going through this podcast journey with us has been an easy one on one sense, you've been able to talk about Angela, and it's been absolutely amazing hearing about her and hearing about your journey. But on the other hand, you've you've relived this in the sea dots, and I don't think I can under state, just how helpful this podcast is going to be, and I hope that it does, you know, provide a bit of support reassurance for anybody else that's going through it. And so I think, from us to you, and we want to give you our greatest Thank you. Yeah, I have nothing right. It's something to give to you, but thank you again. But guys, honestly, like it's been an absolute privilege. You've allowed me to talk about Angela, and hopefully, like yesterday, we were able to help some people, but we obviously could not do this without you guys. So thank you very much. I will leave us with this tribute to Angela. I hope that this podcast goes some way and just upholding her legacy as an incredible individual and helps to keep some of her memory alive. Thank you all to the listeners and the viewers for joining us. You.