20: Are You Leaving Major Gifts on the Table?

If fundraising feels unpredictable, overwhelming, or too dependent on luck, this episode is for you. 

Marcia talks with major gifts expert and former Executive Director Rhea Wong about how nonprofit leaders can stop relying on vague donor lists and start building a real major gifts system that creates more clarity and more predictable revenue.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• Why a donor list is not the same as a fundraising strategy
• How a consent-based approach makes donor conversations feel more natural and effective
• The 2026 fundraising trend Rhea says leaders cannot ignore

Rhea also shares a practical first step you can take right away: triage your donor list by engagement, capacity, and relationship strength so you can focus on the right people first.

Resources: RheaWong.com

Grab Rhea's Major Donor Discovery Cheat Sheet: Your Word-for-Word Script for Confident Conversations - https://go.rheawong.com/majordonordiscovery

👉 Are you catapulting towards burnout? Schedule a private session: https://culturecares.com/burnout-to-boundaries/

🔗 CONNECT WITH MARCIA

Connect with Marcia on LinkedIn → linkedin.com/in/marciabeckner 

Visit the Culture CARES Website → culturecares.com 

Explore the Podcast → culturecares.com/podcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Nonprofit CEO Spark Podcast. I'm your host, Marsha Beckner. Now, if you tuned into this episode, here's something I know about you. You are concerned about fundraising, you want predictable revenue for your nonprofit, and you want to lead the charge in a way that systematically grows your mission. So, because of that, you're gonna love this episode with an amazing expert I've got on hand. Her name is Rhea Wong. Rhea shares some data that makes it really apparent that we're probably leaving money on the table without a system to create a major gift program for your nonprofit. I'm really excited for you to tune into this conversation and stay till the end because she offers an amazing free tool, a checklist that you're gonna want to bring your major gifts forward and engage with them in a meaningful way that's gonna turn into predictable revenue for your nonprofit. I'm really excited for you to tune into this episode. You're gonna get some incredible benefits like understanding what executive directors get wrong about major gifts, what identity shift you need to create a successful major gift program, and what the 2026 trend is that is gonna change the game for you. Welcome to Nonprofit CEO Spark, the podcast for bold leaders ready to navigate growth and change with energy and confidence. I'm Marcia Beckner, nonprofit founder, former executive director, and culture strategist with nearly 20 years in the social impact world. Each week, I help nonprofit leaders stop spinning out, set boundaries, and design inclusive cultures where all staff can thrive. If you're ready to reignite your leadership without sacrificing your well-being, hit subscribe and let's spark your next chapter together. Today's special guest has a gift for making fundraising feel less intimidating and far more empowering. Rhea Wong is a former executive director who has raised millions in major gifts and knows exactly how it feels to sit on your side of the fundraising table. She brings more than 20 years of experience as a multi-million dollar fundraiser, and she understands the real pressure nonprofit leaders carry when revenue goals feel both urgent and personal. Rhea has been the one writing grant reports at 2 a.m., pitching donors with shaky hands, and trying to balance board expectations with a team that already feels stretched. And out of that lived experience, Rhea built the exact major gift system she wished she had as a nonprofit leader and executive director. It's a system that replaces guest work with structure and replaces anxiety with clarity, which is what I know we're always looking for. Today she mentors nonprofit executives across the country who are ready to build sustainable major gift strategies that actually work without the pressure, burnout, or the bro sales energy that never fit in the first place. She's also the host of the Nonprofit Lowdown podcast and the author of Get That Money, Honey, which I love the title of that book so much. And she is passionate about helping CEOs and executive directors and development teams raise more money by building fundraising systems at work. I am so excited for this conversation. Ria, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Marsha, thank you so much for having me. It's such a delight. I think you and I maybe have been emailing a little bit. And so when I heard that you were starting your own podcast and you uh gave me an invitation, it was just such an honor to be on with you. So thanks.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yes, you were top of my list to connect with because I know you've well, the reason is you've been an executive director before. So you're not coming at the fundraising major gifts strategic work from a place of reading about it in books or just learning about it from other experts. It really is important that when you're working with a coach and a mentor to improve systems, that you're working with someone who has been in their shoes, which I know you have. So beyond the you know, short bio that I read about you, can you please share a little bit more context about your background and as an executive director? And did you have like an epiphany where you're like, I want to take this work and help hundreds, if not thousands, of organizations succeed in the fundraising realm?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Oh, Marsha, if only it were that linear. That sounds like such a neat like I had this epiphany moment. So what happened was I was what I call an accidental fundraiser, which I think a lot of us are out here. And I was a 26-year-old executive director. Uh, and my first day on the job, I did two Google searches. The first Google search was, uh, what does an executive director do? And the second was, how do you fundraise? So this was a very small organization. And, you know, over time I did all the things. I watched the YouTube videos, I Googled, I asked to have meetings with anybody who'd meet with me. And over time, I started to develop a system and strategy for fundraising. Uh, and so over the 12 and a half years that I was running my organization, we went from, I think when I started, it was like $250K a year to $3 million a year in private revenue. So we never took public money. Uh, and of that private revenue, the vast majority of it came from individuals. Now, of course, this was in New York City, so that is a very specific case. But when you look at the numbers overall, I always like the giving USA numbers, we see that the vast majority of giving, about 73 or 74% at last count, come from individuals, either individual giving or bequest, which is essentially a fancy way of saying someone dies and leaves you money in their will. And so when I left being an ED, and frankly, it was just because after 12 and a half years, I just felt like I'd given everything I could give. Any of my EDs out here know that 12 and a half years is like dog years. Uh truly, I actually joined a tech firm for about two and a half months, thinking that like, you know, this could be the next age of my career. I quickly found out tech was not for me. I lasted all of two and a half months. And I truly did not intend on being an entrepreneur. I thought I would find another job. And it just turned out that some of my friends had projects that they wanted me to work on in the interim, and sort of one project led to the next, led to the next. And then it got to a point where I was like, you know, none of these job descriptions actually are very appealing to me. And I'm really enjoying the work that I'm doing with my friends and their projects. And when I really pivoted to major gifts, interestingly, it was during the pandemic because that was a moment where everyone was kind of freaking out. They had people actually coming to them asking them to fund them, and a lot of them didn't have strategy. And so the reason why I decided to focus on major gifts was that everything else seemed to be pretty clear. Like if you're a grant writer, you understand the cadence. You get the RFP, you you write up the grant, you have the site visit, you know, like there's a clear kind of step-by-step process. Event fundraising was the same, but nobody really had a strategy for major gifts other than oh, just meet rich people and ask them for money. And I was like, that's not really a strategy. That's just that's hope, right? And and for a lot of people, I just saw that the major gifts that they were getting seemed to be very random. It was like, well, it may come, it may not come. I don't really know. I know that like my board member plays golf with this person. And so, like, we ask her to ask him every, you know, whatever. It just seemed very uh unpredictable. And so this next phase of my career, I've really become a student of major gifts and I've really thought about the systems, the strategy, the psychology behind it. And one of the things that I came to realize quickly is that a lot of the ways that we teach fundraisers is couched in old mentality, right? Maybe this is really a strategy that was developed before we had email and digital communication and all of these messages coming at us and simply does not work for life in 2026. And so I'm on a single woman mission to spread the word about a new style of modern fundraising for the modern fundraiser.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

I love that, Rhea. And I think you had me at the predictability comment. My ED hat is on, having been an ED myself for nearly 10 years, and the lack of predictability of in your revenue for the next year is so scary. I had another um like CEO, ED friend um a few years back who said January 1st, the clock starts over. You basically have zero in your account. I mean, you have money in your account from the prior year, but you have to start all over. And it's just such, it's so intimidating. Um, and so, and right, I never had a system. I had a list of people. Is that what you call a system? A list of people? Absolutely not. No, that is that is the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Okay, no, so this is what I see often is that people are given a list and like no one really knows where this list came from, right? And then maybe we do some qualifying, like, oh, well, we we did a wealth screen, so we know that they have money, or we did a Google search, and we know that they like our kind of organization. Okay, so that's the first step. Where I think my strategy really differentiates, and here I'm gonna call out my friend Greg Warner, who was the architect of this, so I don't mind saying it's brilliant because it's not my baby, it's his baby. Uh, and I've really, he's allowed me to use it, um, is this concept of a consent-based approach. What do I mean by that? When you have a list of people, you're basically kind of hoping that at some point you're gonna call them, you're gonna ask them for coffee, and at some point someone's gonna say yes to that. And then when they stick their head up to say yes, then you're gonna quote unquote develop a relationship, and at some unknown point of time, you're going to ask them for money. And it may or may not be the right ask, it may or may not be the right amount, it may or may not be the right timing, it may or may not be the right project, but like, damn it, I'm gonna ask. So that's the old way. The new way that I really teach is let's take that list that you have and just consider this as our initial prospect list. Then we look at other things. We look at, okay, so sure. Do they have capacity is certainly important because if you have no money to give, you're obviously not going to be a donor. But I'm also looking at other things. I'm looking at uh are they on our email list? Do they open our emails? Do they come to our events? Do they take our phone calls? Do they click on our website? Like these are engagement metrics. And then here's where is uh shines. And I don't want to get too into the weeds here, but there's a two-step qualification process that because I think most nonprofits skip over qualification. And in qualification, I'm literally having a conversation with you to say, hey, Marsha, based on what I hear about your interests and what you want to achieve philanthropically, would you allow me to present a plan for us to get to know each other? And by the way, you're in control, you have uh you say when, you decide if you want to opt in or opt out, and if and when it feels right, we'll co-create a proposal for funding. How does that sound? And the fact that you offer people the opportunity to consent into a process means that we all know what we're doing here, right? And so I think fundamentally, the reason why a lot of people mistrust fundraisers is there's no consent. So there's always the distrust of like, well, what do you want? And what are you asking for? And are you gonna ask me for money at a point when I'm not ready? Nobody likes surprises. And so I think if we lead as fundraisers with the idea of we want to be transparent, we want to be in service to our donors' needs and desires, and we want to operate within our integrity, it can just changes the game for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Oh my gosh, that is huge. That is like I'm kind of thinking that's like a bridge conversation before you ask for money and how critical that bridge is, versus jumping from cliff to cliff with the ravine in the middle, and both of you don't feel safe. So yeah, as you were talking, I was just thinking about like the cares framework that I teach to help executive directors and CEOs build healthy, inclusive cultures where all people can thrive. And the base of cares is safety, psychological safety. And until you have that, people won't be vulnerable and open up. So having that safety conversation that you just talked about is like I feel like that's the missing ingredient. And you just gave us what we need to succeed.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad that you said that because it is about psychological safety and it is about I I like the uh analogy of the ravine, which is like, let's not jump randomly, let's have the bridge conversation. And and in fact, the other thing that I teach is that let's have an actual process. So it's not I'm going to ask you if you want to be in the caseload and then I jump to an ask. There's a whole piece before that, which is like, let's co-create a journey together. What do you want to see, Marsha? Do you really like site visits? Do you really want to have coffee with whomever? Do you want to meet recipients of our program? Okay, let's design that together so that we all know what we're doing. We're all on the same page, and we all know that if and when the timing is right, we're going to be co-creating a proposal for funding. So it's not just, we're hanging out for vibes. Like, how many times have I quote unquote created relationships with people? And then it got to a point where it was like, oh, now they think we're friends, and now it's awkward because I wasn't clear at the beginning that actually my intention was to see about a philanthropic gift, right? So to me, it's about I love that psychological safety. I love that it's about transparency, I love that it is about a process so it's not personal. And it's clear. It's like, look, we're gonna literally lay this journey out on a piece of paper so that you and I both know what's coming and why.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah. Well, now I can see why you're a multi-million dollar fundraiser. You're really thoughtful about your approach. And can you kind of tell us a little bit about your system? Because if I'm an executive director right now, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this sounds great. I love it, but I feel overwhelmed to add an I feel overwhelmed, even though I know initially if I put a system and a process in place, it will create so much clarity and time on the other side that I'm not spinning my wheels. But how do you get people over that initial hump of like, oh no, it's something new, I don't know it yet. So they just kind of put it off or don't do it, even though it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, I mean, Marsha, as you know, with human nature, you can't make anyone do anything that they don't want to do. Uh, and I think for a lot of the people that I work with, it's simply showing them what is not working. Because I think look, I've been in the trenches, you've been in the trenches. Like being an ED is it's so overwhelming. You're just fighting to keep your head above water. And then when you talk to someone like me and you're like, system, that seems hard. That seems like a lot. I'm not gonna lie to you, yes, it does take work. And my point of view on it is if you're really trying to build a major gift system for today and tomorrow, hard things take effort. It's like I can't expect to be in fit and in shape if I never go to the gym and I don't give up eating pizza, right? So the question I always have is like, how badly do you want it? Like, are you willing to carve out two hours a week to get this done so that you can have predictable revenue, so that you can feel confident, so that you can have a clear strategy that not just you, but others on your team can follow. If that is important to you, then we can do something. But if it's not that important to you, or if you'd rather, I don't know, like focus on uh trying to get McKenzie Scott to drop money on you, then like we're probably not the right fit. So I'm very transparent with people about look, it does, it is gonna take time. I mean, we know that on average an eight a major gift takes about 18 months to close, right? So major gifts are already a long game. You can either have do the long game with the strategy or you can do the long game and throw spaghetti at the wall, like which which do you prefer? I know what I prefer, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, and I wish that I knew about I mean this program didn't quite exist yet while I was an executive director, but I I was, you know, on the McKenzie Scott, you know, writing her letters and you know, I did all that too. And I didn't know that there was a better way. So that's why I think this conversation is so important so that people know if system if um a systematic approach to generating revenue for your mission is a priority, that you've got to look at Ria Wong's information, her book, her um get that money, honey, um, and most importantly, your program where two hours a week, when you said that, I was like, oh, that doesn't sound too overwhelming. I think that most can are already spinning their wheels at two hours a week rather than building something long term.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. And I will say, Marsha, uh so there is a system, there is a better way. And I will say small, consistent efforts compound. So the kinds of results that I've been seeing in my program, and you know, and I don't take credit for it, I mean, I am impressed. I'm like, what? Like is that like I had someone close like a 75k gift in a couple of weeks just based on a couple of conversations that we could through. I had another client of mine uh finally get a million dollar bequest that had been like hanging out in La La Land forever. I had someone else close a $140,000 gift in with one phone call, right? So these things are possible. They just take a concerted effort and strategy and discipline, honestly. Because the thing that I see a lot, Marsha, and I'm sure you see it all the time, is that executive directors are just running around with their hair on fire, doing all the things, but not being very strategic about what am I doing with my time such that it is the highest ROI leverage. And so the way I talk about it is if I think about the time of an ED, I think about it as a pyramid. So at the top of the pyramid is strategy and leadership, and that's what I'll call the diamond level. Below that is fundraising and marketing, that's the gold level. Below that is program, that's silver, and below that is admin and operations, that's bronze. Where I see a lot of EDs spending a lot of time are the silver and bronze levels because they don't know what to do at the gold and diamond levels, or they know that it's important, but it's rarely on fire. And so, very simply, the more time that you spend in diamond and gold levels, the more money you're gonna make. Like, that's it. That's the math.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Wow. I love that way to think of it. I haven't thought of it that way before. Um, and like the organizations I work with, many are struggling with like staff conflict and unresolved tension and possibly HR investigations. And so until they can kind of clean up these like dumpster fire type situations on the team, which is what my work helps them do. Um, and I had a client last year where that's all he was doing. And then we created, we systematized how to build culture and got the right people in the right seats and aligned the whole team with the right values and culture, held them accountable because everybody co-created this culture system and they were excited about it. That at the beginning of this year, he told me, I don't know what to do with my time. I everyone's getting along so well. I've never seen anything like it. And I'm not doing the work I was doing last year, isn't there for me, which was all the admin putting out fires. And I'm like, well, now we're gonna work on board engagement, strategic fundraising. And so I'm gonna share your program with him for sure. But it's and he's like, I'm just kind of sitting around. I thought this that is the best problem to have because now you can be diamond, gold level, working with your board, working on strategic fundraising systems, and really building your vision. And so that is just that's just so exciting. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah. Well, the other thing, too, is I'll say, Marshall, like your work is so important. And the work that you do, to be honest, is made easier when you have money. Because I where I see a lot of the breakdown happening in terms of culture is a lot of time when there isn't. The support or the resources available to hire the right person or hire the right consultants or get the right training or you spend money on the retreat that would actually help culture. And so, I mean, I'm not going to say money solves all the problems, but I think money makes it much easier to solve the problems, which is why fundraising.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

And we can have a debate about that for sure. Because really, yeah, my perspective is that unless the culture is churning and everyone's rowing in the right in the same direction, then the money will come. And I've seen, you know, results like that, but they are really two sides of the same coin. Because obviously, if there's no money, there's so much stress. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

I mean, I don't disagree with you. I think the work that you do gets everyone aligned, which then drives more money coming in. But at the core of it, it's hard to get everyone aligned if there's no money to pay for people's salary or like when you're in that scarcity of survival mindset. So I don't think we disagree. I think I'm just on of the perspective that like no money, no honey.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

That's true. No money, no mission, and no people to help you fulfill that. Are there any 2026 trends? I know there's quite a few of them, but can you pick out like the one number one most important one you think that executive directors should be aware of?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yes, yes, yes. I'm so glad you asked this question. I am going to die on this hill. Small is the new big. What do I mean by that? Is when we look at philanthropic gifts across the board, we know that a small majority of people are responsible for the bigger gifts overall. So it looks like 10% of the people are responsible for 90% of the giving. And what is happening, especially in this age of AI and mass emails and social media, et cetera, is that everyone is yelling at everybody all of the time. And there is a lot of noise out there, right? Like I can't like I open my email, I get like a hundred emails from all these people trying to sell me things. I open my LinkedIn, I got a bajillion people like trying to pitch me on something. I my phone, you know, has all these voices, like it just is totally overwhelming. And so what I think we need to do as fundraisers is zig while everybody is zagging. What that means is doubling down on the small, the intimate, the authentic, the genuine, the real conversations with your donors, not the mass email, right? And so sometimes to scale, you must do things that don't scale. And so uh when I work with my executive directors, for example, or my development directors, they'll say things like, well, I'm just so busy. I don't have time to pick up the phone. Is it that you don't have time? Or is it that you are uncomfortable doing it and therefore make work to do in order to tell yourself you don't have the time to do it? I get it. It's uncomfortable to be vulnerable. It's uncomfortable to pick up the phone. It's uncomfortable to have a conversation. And if you're telling me that you're spending 30 minutes designing an email, I would make an argument that that's a better 30 minutes spent actually picking up the phone to talk to your donors.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, I I see that. Uh kind of what I've been learning recently is that we're in a new economy called the engagement economy, which is a two-way conversation, not just one to many on social media and email. And those definitely have their place for like nurturing, but to really engage and get a donation, I don't think I've ever gotten a donation from an email or a social media post or a Facebook post or, you know, well, email, email, I would say statistically, email is actually pretty decent at ROI, but social media generally tends not to be.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I mean, social has its place. I think social is really good for brand awareness. I think most nonprofits aren't using social strategically as a way to build their email list and therefore to nurture and therefore to build a relationship such that you can uh build your way into a solicitation. Or the way I like to think of it is have earned the right to ask. Because I think so many of us have been raised in this transactional mindset that is like, oh, okay, I'll just send a bunch of emails and then at the end of the year I'll do a campaign and then I'll ask people for money without ever asking myself, what value have I created for my donors along the way? What kind of relationship have I actually designed such that it is to your point an engagement, a two-way street, as opposed to a transactional, like, okay, now gimme, gimme, gimme, right? Nobody likes to feel like an ATM. And unfortunately, you know, and no fault of their own. I think a lot of people have not been trained differently. And I think because of the constant weight of the need to fundraise, it it just is easier to be in transactional mode than it is in relational mode.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah. Yeah, it's just it's hard. It's sales. I did work in the tech industry for seven years, and um I sold massive million-dollar computer systems. And then I went, then I started my nonprofit and I was an executive director building something from scratch. And the hardest sales I ever did was asking for donations and event sponsorships and grants and like it is sales, and you're selling that kind of invisible like mission and the invisible to the donor, usually.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Marsha, can I can I interject? I think there are some similarities to sale, but it is fundamentally a different thing. And the reason why is is couched in brain science. So Dr. Russell James out in Texas put people in MRI machines and he scanned their brain while they were talking about business, and one part of the brain lit up. And then he scanned a different part of the brain when he was talking about philanthropy. And it's the same part of the brain that lights up when we talk about emotion and when we talk about family. So fundamentally, these are different parts of the brain. And I think when we lead with data as an example, that's very logically centered for that part of the brain, but that is not the same part of the brain that's engaged in philanthropy. And so there are some similarities to sales, but the the drivers are different.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

So family and emotions. And and when that impacts either of those, then you have that's yeah, that's that's where generosity lies in the brain.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah. And it's very story-oriented. That's why we talk about using story a lot, because we're trying to stimulate the emotional center of the brain, not the logical center. And so I imagine when you were doing sales, you've led with a lot of benefits, right? Like, oh, it will save you time. It'll save that's a very logical case that you're making. And it's not wrong, but uh philanthropy is inherently emotional. I see, I see.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Okay. I thank you. I love learning about neuroscience and how the brain works. So I appreciate that. Um, as we're wrapping up, is there any real practical, tactical takeaways that someone can do tomorrow to get started on this journey into building a major gift system that you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Well, I would say visit my website. I have free webinars every month uh where I talk about the system, I talk about this, the strategy surrewong.com. But if I were to say, first thing first, I mean, I would look at that list because everyone has that list and like Lord knows where that list came from, and I would triage it. So based on what you know about these people, who is actually who has capacity, who is actually engaged, who actually has any kind of relationship with us, and then rank your list between A, B, and C and spend your time on qualifying the A's. And once you're done with that, then you qualify the Bs, then you qualify the C's. So you're systematically working through your list and you're not relying on hope as a strategy, right? There's always like, oh, there's like this big fancy billionaire on my list. Like maybe one day with the right email, this person is gonna give us money. I'm like, uh, you know what? I'm not a vibes kind of a person, I'm a data kind of a person. So if you want to base your entire strategy on vibes, and like that's absolutely fine, you can do that. However, if you're looking for a bit more strategy, that's one quick thing you can do.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I love that. Thank you. And um, and I just want to spell your name for the your website. It's Rhea Wong, R-H-E-A-W-O-N-G dot com. And you can find all the resources that Rhea offers there. And also, do you have something else to offer today? I do. I do.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

So okay. So your audience, I'm going to give the major donor cheat sheet. So I'll share the link with you. Uh, you can share it with your audience afterwards. And it is a quick cheat sheet with scripts of how you can move a major donor conversation forward. Major donor cheat sheet, it's called.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

The major donor cheat sheet.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Okay. All right. Well, thank you for creating that for our audience. We really appreciate your time, Rhea. Is there anything else that you you want to share before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, I just want to share. I I know I I feel like I've been beating up on people a lot, and I know this is a really hard job. And I just want to say I've been in the trenches, you've been in the trenches as well. And I'm really anything I can do to make this very, very hard job a little bit easier, even if it's providing tools and templates or a strategy, like the job is hard enough. We're literally trying to change the world. Let's just make it easy, or as easy as it possibly can be.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, I mean, we're doing no one any good if we're all burning out, stressed, overwhelmed, and not able to stay in the sector that we care so much about. So, Rhea, thank you so much for being an expert in the field and raising the flag for systematizing such an important fundraising program that can really help missions go farther. I really appreciate this conversation. And we will be in touch again soon.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Okay, well, Marsha, we're gonna have you on my podcast. So this is gonna be great. But thanks for the invitation. Thanks for all you do. It's very, very important work to heal the culture. Uh, as being in the sector, I know more than enough about how things can go awry from a culture perspective. So um, yeah, so we'll be talking about that soon. But thank you so much for the invitation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Nonprofit CEO Spark. If you're ready to turn burnout into boundaries and build a healthy, happy culture where everyone, including you, can thrive. Visit culturecares.com to learn how I support nonprofit organizations like yours. If this episode brought you value, share it with a fellow leader navigating stress and overwhelming. And remember, you are meant for great things, and you don't have to burn out to prove it. Until next time, keep leading with courage and confidence.