35: Simple Changes That Improve Team Culture Fast (with Dr. Patton McDowell)

In this episode of Nonprofit CEO SPARK, Marcia Beckner talks with Dr. Patton McDowell about one of the biggest challenges nonprofit leaders face today: how to lead with confidence when everyone has an opinion, meetings take over the calendar, and decision-making starts to stall.

With more than 35 years of nonprofit leadership experience, Patton shares practical strategies for reducing overwhelm, improving team meetings, managing pushback, and making decisions without waiting for 100% consensus. Together, they unpack how imposter syndrome, people-pleasing, and unclear meeting design quietly erode leadership confidence and organizational momentum.

This conversation is packed with actionable takeaways leaders can implement immediately to create healthier team dynamics, stronger communication, and more productive meetings that actually move the mission forward.

3 Key Takeaways:

•  Waiting for unanimous agreement slows growth. Most leaders need only two-thirds to 80% buy-in to move forward confidently. 
•  Poorly designed meetings drain energy, reduce trust, and create frustration across teams. 
•  Confidence grows through clarity, boundaries, and consistent leadership practices — not perfection. 

If your team feels stuck in endless meetings, over-discussion, or decision fatigue, this episode will help you regain momentum and lead with greater confidence and calm. 

RESOURCES & CONNECT WITH PATTON

• Marcia's interview on Patton's Path to Nonprofit Leadership Podcast about nonprofit mergers and culture alignment
• Path to Nonprofit Leadership Podcast 
• Death by Meeting by Patrick Lencioni 
• Patton's book - Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership: Seven Keys to Advancing Your Career in the Philanthropic Sector 

CONNECT WITH MARCIA

Join 10-Week CEO+ED CARES Mastermind → culturecares.com/mastermind

Free Weekly Leadership Insights → culturecares.com → Click Subscribe 

Follow Marcia on LinkedIn → linkedin.com/in/marciabeckner 

Visit the Culture CARES Website → culturecares.com 

Explore the Podcast → culturecares.com/podcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to Nonprofit CEO Spark, the podcast for bold leaders ready to navigate growth and change with energy and confidence. I'm Marcia Beckner, nonprofit founder, former executive director, and culture strategist with nearly 20 years in the social impact world. Each week, I help nonprofit leaders stop spinning out, set boundaries, and design inclusive cultures where all staff can thrive. If you're ready to reignite your leadership without sacrificing your well-being, hit subscribe and let's spark your next chapter together. If you've ever wondered what it actually looks like to lead with confidence when the stakes are high, the team is growing, and the decisions keep coming, today's guest has been in the room for all of it. Patton McDowell brings more than 35 years of experience working alongside nonprofit leaders who are navigating growth, complexity, and those moments where the path forward isn't obvious. He's partnered with more than 325 organizations, supporting boards, CEOs, and senior teams as they make critical decisions that shape not just the strategy, but the culture and long-term impact. Before launching his firm, PMA Nonprofit Leadership, Patton held leadership roles with organizations like the Special Olympics International, so he understands this work from the inside out. Today he serves as the director of the Institute of Philanthropic Leadership, where he's developing the next generation of leaders through programs focused on major gifts, emerging leadership, and executive growth. You might also know him for as the host of the award-winning podcast Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership. And he is the author of the book by the same name, where he's had hundreds of conversations about what it really takes to lead well in this sector. And just to round it out, he holds a doctorate in organizational change and leadership. So yes, he brings both the lived experience and the academic depth to this conversation. But what I appreciate most about Patton is how grounded and practical he is. This isn't theory. This is what actually works when you're in the middle of it. So let's get into it. Welcome to the show, Patton.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Marcia, delighted to be with you. Thank you for that kind introduction. And I'm excited about this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Me too. Um, I was on your podcast recently. It's actually coming out in June of 2026.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

And we had a really great conversation about mergers and how to merge the cultures of two organizations if you grow in that direction. And so I will put that episode in the show notes once it comes out. Um, so to make sure that everybody can access that conversation if they want to, and then find your wonderful podcast. Um, I want to say, ask if you have any additional context to the um to the bio I just read of you, um, why you're passionate about nonprofit leadership specifically.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Well, grateful for the opportunity once again, and I'm glad you lifted up Special Olympics International. I always like to advocate for the internship opportunities in our sector because I'm the fortunate recipient of an opportunity. I started as an intern in Washington, D.C. as a Special Olympics International intern. Got to meet the founder, uh, Eunice Kennedy Shriver. She was still active at that time. And so it gave me a wonderful perspective. And speaking of what we'll talk about, Marcia, confidence uh in a leadership role and an uh intense advocacy for a cause that was powerful uh for her. Mrs. Shriver had a family member uh that that was a beneficiary of the program. But anyway, that that's what started it off for me. And I was fortunate to spend 10 years at that organization, another 10 years in higher education. So um, as you said, I've kind of experienced some of the highs and lows from the inside, and now have been fortunate in my work with Armstrong Maguire uh to work with many nonprofit leaders who, like you and I have talked about, they're they're struggling with some of these things and trying to do good work, but also uh dealing with issues of confidence sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah. And so what are the biggest struggles that you're seeing right now, you know, in the spring-summer of 2026?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Um, overwhelm uh given the uncertainty in almost every direction a nonprofit leader looks. Funding is uncertain, retention of talent is difficult. Uh, board engagement can be one end of a spectrum to another, from micromanagement uh to disengagement. And so you combine all of that in largely underfunded often and understaffed organizations. That's tough on a leader. And so I find, and again, why your topic is so relevant, hard to remain confident when everything around you is is in turmoil. And then you deal with the challenges of your team looking to you uh to get their confidence built. And that's hard. And so I guess I can't say there's one singular issue, but in all of the leaders I'm working with, it seems like the combination um is what is is sometimes the hardest.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

And and what do you see is the impact of all those stressors on a leader?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Uh turnover, number one. We're losing talented leaders from the sector who ultimately say, you know what, I just this is I can't deal with this anymore. You know, the impact it has on them personally and their families. And so the more we can do to support leaders, um, I I talk a lot of times with these leaders about to the extent they can control some of the clutter. And that's something I've found that sometimes or do we have some self-inflicted stress? Because as a natural nonprofit leader, you're used to rolling up your sleeves, you're used to doing whatever it takes to make things happen. But does that ultimately, as you advance as a leader, does that create problems for you? Because you're not delegating, you're not uh letting someone else deal with some of the things they can, in fact, empowering them to do so. Um, but again, I think if you, you know, if I had to give you a single answer as to what's the result of this, we're gonna lose good people from the sector.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, I know that I feel like that's the tragedy of it all is that people who are wired to help others and serve others just completely get overwhelmed with, you know, that level of burnout where you can't even you don't have a minute in the day for yourself necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

The the passion for the cause will carry you for a while, yeah, but it can't carry you, you know, yeah as far as the organization needs you to stay with it.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yep. Workload balance and sustainability have got to be top priorities, right? So I want to talk about a problem that a lot of executives have told me. Um they've said that they're like really trying to, you know, they're kind of people pleasers and really want to get consensus when it comes to making decisions and moving forward and taking action. They want consensus and they want everybody to agree because they feel like that's what it takes to build a safe environment where people can perform at their highest levels. But when taken to an extreme, building consensus stalls growth and stalls the expansion of your mission potentially. So we want to just find the right balance. There's nothing wrong with consensus. So I want to start by asking you like, think back to your time as a senior leader in one of those organizations that you've worked in. Was there a moment where you were trying to be collaborative, when you were trying to be collaborative, actually slowed a decision or made it harder on yourself to lead? And do you remember what was happening at that moment?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Very much so. I was one of the youngest program directors in the country as the senior program officer at Special Olympics, North Carolina. And and I felt, uh, as we all do, I bet sometimes, a bit of imposter syndrome. Uh and I felt like, and the reason I wanted unanimous approval for any decision because I worried that people were judging my capacity and quality as a leader. And so we were tackling some new programming ideas. I had ideas that I thought made sense, um, but I probably stunted the growth of these ideas because I was trying to convince everybody that it was the right decision. And you're never going to get everybody to agree, you know, a large organization, right? And that's the strength of an organization. You don't want everybody to be exactly of the same opinion. But as a as a younger professional with some insecurities that I now happily admit, um, that I think is the result sometimes of our people-pleasing nature, wanting everyone to like me and wanting everyone to agree with me. Um, but I I wonder if you hit a point, Marcia, that I don't know exactly what the formula is, but I've heard some leaders say that is it 75%, you know, is is as close as you're going to get. Because you will wait forever for 100% agreement. But if you get two-thirds and you feel confident, then you you need to be transparent, you need to communicate it, and you need to do it. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, then you are transparent about that. But at least in my experience, that I still kind of, you know, shudder a little bit at like, gosh, how much time did I lose because I was afraid to make the decision.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing, you know, about imposter syndrome. And that is so relatable. I think we've all had it. I believe if you don't have narcissistic personality disorder, then you you suffer from something else, which is imposter syndrome, one or the other.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

That's a different episode, right? We'll have to yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Part two.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah. But um, I think we're giving um people a really good practical tip right now, which is a range and a range of how many people you can get, you know, to buy into the next decision or action. You said two-thirds, you know, two-thirds, and you move forward. I had a a peer of mine say he tried to make 80% of the people a hundred percent happy.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yeah. That's a good, I like that. That is a good formula.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yeah, I would say so. Somewhere our range is two-thirds to 80%.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Right. Let's let's make that like an a, you know, an actionable takeaway for anyone listening, and and you're in the middle of, you know, a person persuasion campaign around your next idea or your next action or decision. Two-thirds to 80%. I think you're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And and if at least you gave everyone to voice, I think the the mistake we make sometimes is then not allowing everyone that wants to weigh in to weigh in. That is what frustrates your team. I think. Well, I would, you know, they never talk to me, and I'm the one that has to execute on this plan, you know. So um, it doesn't mean everyone is you have to be clear. Uh yes, I want your voice, um, and I'm gonna take it under consideration. So I I I guess what I'm saying, maybe you want a hundred percent uh opportunity to provide feedback, right? And then hopefully between two-thirds and eighty percent agree after the result is delivered.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah. And and this one statement is really powerful too. You can say nothing is set in stone. And I've seen like leaders who are really strong in culture. They say nothing is set in stone. We've got two-thirds, you know, agreement on the direction everyone's had a say. We appreciate all of your feedback into this decision, and we're gonna try it for three months. And if we try it for three months, it's not working, we're gonna reassess and adjust. And and everybody can weigh in on this process or SOP that we're trying to create. And in that way, you're just making steps forward and you're also normalizing like this might not work or it might work better than we expected.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Exactly.

unknown 12:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

That's so well put. And again, it just sets the stage for transparency and uh, but it also makes clear that not everybody's gonna agree with everything, but yeah, we're gonna do the best we can. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Right. Because we because we do want different perspectives. So actually 100% is impossible if you have everybody thinking the same way.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

It couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, it means that you do have a diverse team and you can point that out. So, nonprofit leaders, I'm sure you see this in your work, are taught to be inclusive and collaborative. Where does that start to go wrong in practice?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Right. I think it also, if if we are so intent on getting all the opinions and involving everybody and everything, you do lose efficiency and ultimately the mission suffers. Uh, as you said very well, I do want to give everyone a chance, but I also think we have to put kind of boundaries on that. That, hey, uh, for the next 30 days, I'm gonna be talking to everybody I can about this decision. But notice I I think it's important to set kind of a deadline. When I've started new jobs, I always felt like that was important because as you arrive in a new organization, everyone's nervous. New leader coming in, what is this gonna mean for me? And they're worried perhaps that you're gonna make changes, the rumors start, things like that. But I think in any of these decisions, while you want to be collaborative, I think you put a timeline on it. And is it 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? Because I think if you don't, uh you're just gonna ride a roller coaster of, you know, the opinion of the day and too many voices and all that. And so maybe some sort of self-designed timeline is a way for you to communicate. Yes, I'm gonna hear from you, but at the end of the month, we're gonna move forward.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable tact to make. Now, okay, let's say there's a leader listening right now. Okay, I'm gonna put these ideas into practice, and you still get pushback from your staff, and people are still not happy, which is you know, something that leaders deal with all the time is that this person's not happy, or that person's not happy, or they're pushing back and resisting. Do you have any, you know, tactical like strategies that work in order to deal with pushback in a way that preserves your own health and well-being and happiness?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I think you got to distinguish between the the topic and the person because uh it's natural for the individual maybe to take it personally. You disagree with me. And that is that does that somehow imply you don't like them? And so I think very clearly and quickly you want to indicate that look, I respect your opinion. I'm glad you gave your opinion. I didn't go in that direction this time, but I also want to uh acknowledge some of the other contributions you made to our organization. So, in other words, there's kind of a combination of acknowledgement. I heard you and respect the work you're doing. But let's distinguish. I I just simply don't agree with a specific topic we're discussing. Um, I think that tends to kind of reduce the fever uh of a topic because again, the first reaction someone's gonna have when you disagree with them, it it may hurt their feelings. It may get them in a defensive mode. So I find that you just kind of have to respond to that with um, you know, kindness and in a respectful way, but you it's also okay to indicate it's not the answer you're gonna take.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah. I think the higher level of trust and respect you can earn from your team, the easier those conversations are. Yeah, we're talking about like how to proactively build trust so that these conversations can be, you know, just more respectful and easier. And your team is like, okay, I I may not agree. I don't see all the things that you see when you're making this decision, but I'm gonna trust that you know that this is gonna be good for everyone involved. How do you proactively build trust? Do you have any specific things that people could do, like starting tomorrow?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah, make sure everyone's voice is heard. And even some of the mechanical things like your team meetings. Uh, I think there's such opportunities when you have existing gatherings of your team. Uh are you the one dominating every discussion if you are the senior leader on paper? And and or are you delegating conversations in a way that allow everyone's voice to be heard? Because that is such an empowering element for someone on the team to uh, or the opposite of that is what tears culture apart, right? Where the the there are a few uh louder voices that seem to dominate. And so I'm a big believer in meeting management and meeting design uh is a a huge part of culture because those are the unique opportunities when everybody's in the room together, and often everyone then after that goes in their different directions. So a cultural kind of touch point is when the team is all together. And so being very sensitive to how those kind of uh gatherings are managed, I think is is important.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah. And, you know, I'll admit something from my past that I'm, you know, embarrassed that I didn't know how to do back in the day when I was an executive director. I didn't know how to facilitate meetings well. I had someone that was like dominating, it wasn't me, but it was someone else dominating every single thing. And I didn't cut it off. I didn't know how to deal with it. Everybody knew that this other person just would talk 75% of the meeting, and the rest of us were lucky to get a word in. And so I really wish I could have had some tools. Do you have like facilitation tools like that that you can help leaders who are listening right now to implement in their next team meeting?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, I mean, time blocking any topic. Um, being very intentional of proactively having different people lead different parts of the agenda. Because I think if you try to lead it by yourself as the leader, um the loudest voices do sometimes, Jen are the ones that always answer. But can we distribute the agenda to more people in the room? Sometimes you have to do the gentle, uh, you know, thanks for your feedback, but let's let somebody else speak on this one. Or, you know, before, you know, the louder person always dominates, you don't call on them, right? And you figure out ways to get other voices uh, you know, lifted up.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Do you recommend having a one-on-one conversation with the dominator outside of the meeting?

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yes. I think and and it you know starts with appreciation. Thank you for speaking up. Thank you for your passion about our cause. But as you and I both know, I I want to make sure other voices are also heard. And if you talk as much as you do, uh you have others around the table that are retreating. So maybe that will have this person, frankly, build their own EQ skills because it's a lack of emotional intelligence, you know, and and maybe there's an insecurity that, well, Patton, I didn't think you were, you know, I wanted you to know that I'm enthusiastic about this. I wanted you to be impressed with what I knew. So maybe I assure them, okay, I I do appreciate your voice. I do respect what you bring, but remember, we're gonna be stronger if everybody's voice is at the table. And if you take up all the time, hard to do that.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah, yeah. That was a difficult conversation that I knew I needed to have at the time that I I avoided.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

And so we've all been there. We've all been there.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Oh, I if I could turn back time, I would do that differently.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Um, but that's why when I'm coaching CEOs, executive directors, or senior leaders now, we talk about that and the meeting design. Tell me more about like meeting design. Let's say you have a weekly staff meeting, right? How do you optimize that opportunity for building culture as well as getting work done?

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah, and I'm glad you're inviting this because I think number one, let's make sure the agenda uh is truly uh allows us for strategic conversation. Um, is there an agenda at all? You know, if you want to be kind of harsh about this, like I've I've heard some people say, rules, if there's not an agenda with some clear objectives, then we don't need to have the meeting. You know, if if we're just going through the motions because it's always on our calendar. Um, I have found too, Marsha, lately to to um reduce the time frame of meetings, makes them higher quality. Um and and you know. Called Parkinson's Law. We we basically fill the time that on the is on the calendar. So if our weekly meeting has 90 minutes, then people are apt to just ramble their way through topics and we didn't need 90 minutes. So I would encourage everybody listening to think about every meeting on your calendar. I've done this kind of an audit of all meetings related to the team. Um, are we just defaulting to 60 minutes because our calendar program tells us to? But why not 45 minutes? Why not 30 minutes? So, number one, audit your agenda and see how much of it truly is strategic, truly has a goal or an objective attached to it, and has a distributed kind of leadership. Back to your good question about, you know, how do we build culture? Well, get out of the people talking. And if you're the one dictating every single topic on the agenda, uh I just don't think that's as effective, especially if as a leader you're trying to build leadership around you. Meetings are a good way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Oh, yeah. That is something I think I did well at this other or at the organization that I was leading. Was I was not the owner of that meeting necessarily. Our you know, program operations director was, and she developed an amazing agenda for 30 minutes a week. It was so on point, it was so meaningful. It wasn't a a struggle, it wasn't me doing it, it was her. And and she like really kept time. She's a project manager brain, which I don't have. I'm like, let's talk about ideas all day long.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

But you need somebody that brings that.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Always, yes. I always do better when I partner with somebody like that. And um, and it was wonderful. It was such a simple agenda. We just did shout-outs in the beginning and a mission moment. Then we did three MITs for every single person to go through. And MIT is your most important thing for the week we had on Mondays. Everybody went around. Here's my most important one, two, or three things. This is the, you know, I need help from this person for something, or I need help from you. Um, what resources do they need? What help do they need to get it done? And then schedule changes at the end. Anybody have a dentist appointment, or you know, what that's going to take them out for a day, or vacation coming up over the next two weeks, done, done with that meeting. And it was, it was just so productive and efficient. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

I can it it reminds me of Patrick Lincioni's books, the kind of business fables, but Death by Meeting was one of my favorite books ever on this topic. Uh, but sadly, because it's like, uh-oh, maybe I'm guilty of some of these things, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah, we all are. I mean, there's you can really just let meetings kind of eat up your week easily. And I love your idea of a meeting audit. And I would even say like quarterly, let's look at our meetings strategically, right? Let's all step back, let's look at the next three months. You know, maybe you put one meeting aside because you've got something else that's a priority for that quarter or something. I think that that would be really, really effective for teams to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

And then your team feels empowered, you know, simply inviting that. Hey, hey, everyone, let's I I realize this is valuable time. And so each quarter, I want to ask you, you know, are these meetings uh accomplishing what you need? Uh I've seen some organizations uh rotate two functions at each meeting, a facilitator and a timekeeper. And so empowering different people every meeting, okay, well, Marsha, today you're the facilitator and I'll be the timekeeper. And then that rotates and uh, you know, allows different types of engagement, frankly, keeps us on task. Um, and and then people don't get offended because we all know that, you know, Patton, you're the timekeeper, so you can politely say it's time to move to the next agenda item. Um, Lencioni has a fascinating concept. He calls it meeting stew. He said the the reason people are often so frustrated by meetings is individuals come to the meeting with different objectives. In other words, some people come to the meeting, I'm just here to kind of cut to the chase. What, like you said, Marcia, what do I need to get through this week? Other people come to the meeting though, wanting deeper conversation. You know, I work kind of an isolated way and I like the chance to brainstorm and go deeper. But it when we have that uh conflicting objectives, or at least in people's minds, everybody leaves frustrated, right? You wanted you wanted to get down and let's get this thing done. I wanted deeper strategic conversation. We both leave frustrated because the leader kind of is not sure and maybe settles in the middle, and then everybody's you know disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Right. And that really tanks your confidence as a leader right there to get back to that word, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

100%.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah. So how to strategically build your confidence is to kind of get control again over these meetings, invite input, um, clarify objectives. Uh it's always clear as kind, like what is our objective for this meeting? Um, there's teams out there right now who the leader wants it to be super efficient and effective in 30 minutes, and the team wants to talk for 90 minutes. Exactly. How do you how do you square that? How do you make everybody happy? I know we were talking about consensus. You can't make everybody, but what would be your advice to to that team?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Define and have different types of meetings with the clear definition you just described. In fact, call your weekly weekly tactical or some such definition, which kind of sets the stage for hey, we're not here to go deep dive, we're here to make sure everybody's got what they need to be successful this week. Then you could call it your monthly strategic. We'll take more time, we'll expand the agenda to allow discussion. And then maybe you have quarterly retreats that, you know, half day even. But what you signal to everybody, okay, now I see. I'm not going to be frustrated because I know the weekly meeting is for tactical, get things done. But I know I'll have a chance each month to expand and strategize and think about new new ways to approach things. So that has been my kind of experience and what I've seen done well is it it not trying to do, as Lincioni says, meeting stew every time.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Oh, that's what meeting stew means.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

We're mixing the agenda. So we have the tactical part of the agenda for those people, then we have the strategic part. And again, it's a mixture of style of meeting, and and none of it's going to be done well because you're trying to squish it all together.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

That's so true. I love it. Thank you so much for kind of putting that all together. Um, okay. I think that we've given leaders like this is a really meaty episode. I'm really excited about sharing this with everyone because I think it's just things it I love finding things that can make leaders feel more confident quickly that costs nothing.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

That's exactly no investment here needed.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Right. It's and it's actually gonna buy back some of your time, your sanity, which is all about like if you're if you're just like always underwater with self-doubt and imposter syndrome, like how to, you know, to really be clear in your leadership, we'll we'll build that trust and respect and that confidence step by step. And so I I kind of want to sum up by think about doing, think about this cadence for your year. Think about like a quarterly, half a day strategy session with your team. Audit the meetings for the next quarter, you know, clarify what the top priorities are and and and then set up your meetings, like your monthly planning meetings, where it's like more um before each month, you're talking about like the the plan for the month with with meatier conversations and then the weekly tactical. It can be 30 minutes for a team of I don't know, five or six, probably. You might need 45 for a team of 10 or 12.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Um, and much bigger. Any meetings that are bigger than that is like a conference.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah. It's a whole different animal, then, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah. Most team meetings are kind of like 10 or less. So yeah, somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes a week to get really clear on the tactical actions that need to be taken to hit those strategic priorities. I think I think that's just such a great cadence. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

100%. And one more thought is is if you want to do your team a favor, declare one day a week that you don't have any meetings. I have seen a nice movement around this because a lot of times, and I remember this in higher education now, maybe, but I think other sectors face this. I felt like I was in meetings all the time. And there's that refrain, I'm not getting any work done because I'm always in meetings. So if you or your team feel that way, maybe you just declare, you know, no meeting Wednesdays. Or try to do all the meetings of administrative nature on us the same day so that the rest of the week, you know, we can do the kind of work we need to do.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Right, right. I think that that's really powerful. Your team will light up, talk about your confidences if you love you so much. We did that in a in a larger organization I was with. We did no meetings just for the mornings of Wednesdays.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Um, and you know, not everyone even stuck to that.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 31:53

They're like, okay, I have a free morning, so I couldn't fit that meeting anywhere else. Um, so that's just around, you know, individual boundaries, but they have to see the leader holding to it because it was the like the main leader of a department that still had meetings on Wednesdays.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Violating their own rule. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Won't work.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Yeah. So it's always about modeling what you want to see, you know, the rest of the team do. It's not just what you say, it's what you do. Well, Patton, thank you so much for this, for your time in this conversation. Where can people find out more about you so that they can follow the work you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Well, my name, Patton McDowell, is where you find me on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most active in the social media spaces. Uh, Armstrong Maguire is the name of the firm I'm part of and doing lots of programming. And then thank you. Early on, you said your path to nonprofit leadership is the key phrase for me. It's the podcast and the book, and really defines the kind of work I love doing.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, and we'll we'll put all that information in the show notes as well in case you're driving or taking a walk with the dog.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Indeed.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

So, yes, thank you so much, Patton. I really appreciate this conversation. And I know that we'll continue to stay connected. And thanks to everybody listening. Um, my you know, ending line is always just I'd love to continue this conversation. Just go to culturecares.com, check out what we do, schedule a call. Let's connect if you're struggling with confidence or imposter syndrome or anything like that. Um, that's that's what we do and who we help. So have a wonderful day. And remember, you are meant for great things and you don't have to burn out to prove it. Thanks for listening to today's episode of Nonprofit CEO Spark. If you're ready to turn burnout into boundaries and build a healthy, happy culture where everyone, including you, can thrive. Visit culturecares.com to learn how I support nonprofit organizations like yours. If this episode brought you value, share it with a fellow leader navigating stress and overwhelm. And remember, you are meant for great things, and you don't have to burn out to prove it. Until next time, keep leading with courage and confidence.