#29 - The Ecosystem of Excellence

This conversation with David Clancy explores how elite sports systems can be redesigned to foster human flourishing, sustainability, and collective flow. We discuss signals of high-performance environments, trust, leadership, and the potential for sports to serve as laboratories for cultural change beyond the stadium.

David is a good friend of mine from Dublin, Ireland, with a long history of work, knowledge and development at the nexus of sport, positive psychology and flow. His experience improving the ecosystems of excellence for Premiere League soccer teams, NHL, NFL, NBA and numerous other sports gives him a unique perspective on what it takes for teams to thrive, and his views on how to shift athletes from being seen as “assets” to being treated as valued humans is both refreshing and insightful.


Key Topics
⚽Signals of high-performance environments
⭐Trust and leadership in sports teams
⚽Sustainable athlete development and well-being


Quotes
"All the small things say all the big things"
"Energy and attention are interconnected"
"Scale with strong systems and routines"
“High performance environments aren’t built on intensity alone - they’re built on clarity, trust, and sustainable energy.”
“The second you walk into a team, you can feel it - alignment or ambiguity lives in the air.”
“All the small things say all the big things. No small thing is ever a small thing in a great culture.”
“Where attention goes, energy flows - and ultimately, performance follows.”
“Most systems in sport are built to extract performance, not to sustain the human producing it.”
“If you want long-term success, stop treating athletes like assets and start treating them like ecosystems.”
“The best teams don’t eliminate pressure - they create safety inside of it.”
“Clarity and communication come before collaboration. If you miss those, everything else fractures.”
“Scaling performance isn’t about adding more people - it’s about tightening systems and repeating what works.”


Chapters
00:00 The Influence of Professional Sport on Human Development
02:42 David Clancy: A Catalyst for Change in Sports
06:10 Assessing Team Environments: Signals of Performance
10:46 Transforming Athlete Well-being: A Systemic Approach
15:56 Sustainable Models in Sports: Long-term Success vs. Short-term Gains
19:13 Collective Flow: The Power of Team Cohesion
22:17 Leadership and Its Impact on Team Dynamics
25:39 Mapping Energy and Trust in Teams
26:59 Understanding PERMA: A Framework for Well-Being
28:20 The Intersection of Energy and Attention
31:58 Protecting Cognitive Bandwidth in Teams
37:27 Creating Change at Scale in Professional Sports
40:33 The Need for Well-Being Standards in Sports
45:46 Leveraging AI for Enhanced Performance



Check out David’s work and other sources discussed!
The Nxt Level Group
LinkedIn
Harvard Study of Adult Development
Amy Edmondson's Psychological Safety
PERMA Model by Martin Seligman
Reid Hoffman's Masters of Scale Podcast 


#flourish #wealth #wealthmanagement #investing #advisor #KnowThyWealthKnowThyself 

Connect with Gillian: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillian-stovel-rivers-ma-cfp%C2%AE-cea-997094124/?originalSubdomain=ca   
https://x.com/GillianStovelR 
https://www.instagram.com/gillianstov... 
https://flourishfamilywealth.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

The Flourish Feed Podcast, a series of curiosity-driven deep dives into the nature of flourishing through wealth. I'm your host, Gillian Stovel Rivers, M A C F P C E A, Senior Wealth Advisor at CIA Zante Wealth Management.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

The truth of it is a lot of the time in the sports world, players are seen as assets, right? They're seen as, you know, commodities that you, you know, as if it was a stock that you're you're trading, you're selling, you're signing, you're you're just letting go, releasing after a bad injury. It happens, right? You blow the knee, you could be gone the next day, your contract's done, right? The shelf life for a running back in the NFL is not that long, right? But I think how this can improve, and that's I suppose it's why I really dug into well-being a couple of years ago, was there has to be a different and a better way, right? I mean, we're currently working with an expansion WMBA team, and kudos to them because they've been really upfront with as part of their vision, what they want to do is build a sustainable player. So build a sustainable athlete. They're not just interested in a power forward lasting four seasons and and you know being exceptional for four seasons and then flaming out and then trading the way. They're looking at success as to can this power forward play at that level for 10 seasons.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Professional sport is one of the most visible and influential performance ecosystems in the world. It shapes how millions of people think about effort, identity, leadership, winning, failure, masculinity, resilience, and even worth. Yet the systems around elite athletes have historically been built to extract performance rather than cultivate flourishing. The real question David Clancy's work raises is this: what if professional sport became a laboratory for designing environments where humans flourish under pressure rather than merely survive it? And what if humanity, already obsessed with this version of ourselves, was made better by its example? Through his work with Next Level Group, David is not just coaching individuals. He is attempting to influence the architecture of culture inside elite sport, shifting the focus from short-term output to sustainable human performance rooted in flow, psychological safety, meaning, and collective trust. This conversation explores what it would mean to change sport at scale so that the same systems that currently produce championships could also produce healthier humans, stronger teams, and leadership models capable of influencing culture far beyond the stadium. But first, let's get to know David a little bit. David Clancy is a sports medicine specialist, performance consultant, and CEO and co-founder of the Next Level Group, a global firm working with elite professional sports teams to build high-performance cultures and leadership ecosystems. With more than 15 years in sports medicine, physiotherapy, and performance support, David has advised organizations across the NBA, NFL, Premier League football, and other elite competitions. Trained in physiotherapy and sports and exercise medicine at Keel University and Trinity College in Dublin, he's also held research roles and serves as faculty at Florida International University. David's work focuses on the systems behind elite performance, the leadership, the culture, the talent networks, and well-being structures that allow teams and individuals to thrive under pressure. Through consulting education and talent development, he works with organizations around the world to rethink how high performance environments are designed so that both performance and human development can flourish. David Clancy, it's about damn time. Welcome to the Flourish Feed Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Gillian, it's always uh it always kind of sets you back a little bit when you hear what you've uh what you're currently working on. But look, really delighted to be here. Um, calling all the way over from Dublin, Ireland. You hit on so many words there that I really think resonate a lot with me. You know, human development, sustainability, trust, so many big words that I'm sure we'll get into. But um, yeah, where are we going to start?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Well, a lot of those words that you just mentioned, I think are reasons why you and I resonated from the very first time we met. But the place that I want to start is that moment when you encounter a new team environment. What are the signals that tell you immediately whether that eco supports, that ecosystem, pardon me, supports performance or drains it? Like what you've entered a new space and all of those words that really matter to you are right at the top of your mind. What are the first signals you see?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

And it's always anytime I have the opportunity, and I do, you know, I'm fortunate to get the opportunity to visit lots of different clubs and teams around the world. And I always go in with um trying to get a feel. So the second you open up the door, trying to get a feel as to what the place, what's it like in the air, and I can really vividly remember going to a rugby club, uh, not my rugby club, a rival rugby club a couple of years ago. And this team is extremely successful, right? Leinster rugby, they're they've sustained success for a long, long time, and they don't have loads and loads of money in comparison to an NFL team or an NBA team. And but I was curious as to what it was about this sort of environment when I'd walk into it that would speak to why they're so successful. And it's not just the players on the pitch. And I remember walking in and the feeling when I left the building going, they just do all the little things really, really well here. Like no small thing is not a small thing. And then I think all the small things say all the big things, but I think there was always a real level of precision and quality with conversations. Everyone was present, they were there where their feet were, everyone was really courteous, place wasn't messy. I think everyone also understood what the roles were, what they were doing. It's not like they were there having to make sure that their position was stable and safe, right? So they were all just being authentic and true to what they were doing. I just think that was a real high-performing environment. And so when I walk into a place, you're trying to sense: is there vagueness here, is there ambiguity here, is there politics going on? What's the energy like? Is this place driven by money or is it driven by a different sort of purpose? And I think when you can sense a place like Leinster, which is hard for me to say because I'm a Munster man, right? There seem to be high standards there, but a high level of safety with the standards, you know, a lot of accountability, a lot of clarity. Everyone kind of knew what they were doing, so there was a lot of alignment. And all that speaks to just real high energy. So it's no wonder as to why they're really successful. So a lot of that stuff is kind of hard to measure, you know, it's not really quantitative, but you can feel it. And like I've walked into other environments and I've kind of gone, there's something not quite right here, something's off. What is it? And I think when you spend a bit of time, you'll see things or you'll sense things or you'll notice things or conversations or the we the way people talk about others. And those sort of signals you can kind of pick up, and and that can be a barometer as to, oh, this place is really functional and high performing, or not quite there. And that's kind of what I look for usually as a first impression.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Not really an audit, it's more of a feel before an audit.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

No kidding. And and okay, so there is an audit step, because that was going to be my next question is you've entered a space, it kind of hits the mark somewhere between a one and a ten on what you just described. And now you've got to go about doing the work of figuring out and assessing how can I help here? So this step one is a kind of a gut feel, and then there's a process of an audit, which I would expect there would be. You're a pretty scientific guy, but I'm so when you do this audit, I don't want to go into examples so much as I want to ask what's the read like? What's the feeling like? Is there is there a general level of acceptance that you're there to add value in this way, or or is this new for a lot of people that that kind of audit should be taking place in their organization?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

There's two sort of um, there's two ways I'll answer that, and it's context-dependent, right? So with some of my work, it's recruitment, and it's very clear that it's it's headhunting. So you're going in and you're benchmarking an organization from an organizational sort of perspective and saying, this is your headcount, this is the balance across these sort of departments. It's clear that you're missing probably somebody with these areas of expertise in this sort of character or this sort of leader, and then that's kind of where you go. If it's if it's more around you already have your people, you've got a good balance across your department, you're just wanting to dial that up a little bit more, then that's a little different. And and it's nearly the latter, even to your body language, right, is what lights me up a little bit more because that sometimes is a little bit harder. And I think you have to be a little bit more delicate because it's not like someone saying to you, we need a new doctor. So it's it's already up front and everyone understands. I think when it's more around everyone's here, I usually just come in with the sort of questions as to, well, where are you trying to go from here? Or you're already doing a lot of great things. Where do you think you can improve? So very much acknowledging and affirming that there's already a lot of good work here and that the people are doing great work and there's good systems and processes, but what do you think would make that little bit more of impact difference? And and then I think you win people over, and I think too, I'll just I'll just come in back to I think I'll come back to trust because I think some people lean into you lean with credibility, some people lean in with vulnerability, some people lean in with it's all about them. So I think if you can understand where and how to bridge and nurture trust and get it early, I think that always helps when you're facilitating steps to improve a improve a situation that's already probably pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

I tell you, I did light up in the second example, and it's because it sounds like it's such an art form. Like there's so much sending and receiving of message that is almost nonverbal from the very beginning in order to really connect with what's happening and what's going to be needed to help that organization elevate and achieve their goals. But at the beginning, it sounds like it starts with their goal. It's not your goal for them. It really starts with what you understand from a collection of information of various people you talk to, what their goals might be for elevating their situation. So I think this is such a fascinating example of a laboratory for human performance. And you and I talked about this just before we started, that organizationally, whether it's a sports team or a corporation, that's kind of what we're all looking to do, is raise the game. So my next question is it it seems it's come a long way in terms of sport and human performance and so forth, but I feel like there's still this at least sense from the public that a lot of athletes are leaving sport or finishing a season mentally, emotionally, and physically diminished or drained. So, what would have to change in the system for that outcome to become unacceptable? Like what would have to change so that no matter how the season ended or or no matter where you are in your growth cycle of developing a team that that people went home proud of what they did and connected the way you described that first team?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, it's such a big question. And I mean, you know, seek first to understand, bring in empathy, all these wonderful things you'd like to lean into there, Jillian. But it's harsh. But the truth of it is a lot of the time in the sports world, players are seen as assets, right? They're seen as, you know, commodities that you, you know, as if it was a stock that you're you're trading, you're selling, you're signing, you're you're just letting go, releasing after a bad injury. It happens, right? You blow the knee, you could be gone the next day, your contract's done, right? The shelf life for a running back in the NFL is not that long, right? But I think how this can improve, and that's I suppose it's why I really dug into well-being a couple of years ago, was there has to be a different and a better way, right? I mean, we're currently working with an expansion WMBA team, and kudos to them because they've been really upfront with as part of their vision, what they want to do is build a sustainable player. So build a sustainable athlete. They're not just interested in a power forward lasting four seasons and and you know being exceptional for four seasons and then flaming out and then trading the way. They're looking at success as to can this power forward play at that level for 10 seasons. So, what would they need to do from an environmental perspective, from a personal perspective, from a management of load perspective, to not burn the athlete out? Now, that team who are definitely gonna be trying some different ways of as to how to measure success, I don't know if well-being is a KPI there, right? And I don't know if they're gonna look at that versus minutes or points scored on the court. But I think if you can set up a system where you're just trying to think of the athlete more, like we we were taught as physios, right, in sports medicine, patient first, athlete-centric, you know, player goes in the middle, everyone's around that player. But I don't know if that always really bears is really the truth as to what happens when you see how some of them are managed or mismanaged. So I think um I think a lot of the time it comes down to the system, it comes down to the ethos and and philosophy of the of the people steering the ship. And if you have an owner, manager, head coach that really do care about health and well-being and not just the short-term.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Well, uh, that's it. It's a long-term story, and I think you said it was WNBA, so I don't want to harp too hard on that, but it sounds like a different model for a different type of athlete, which is somebody who females have different parts of their life cycle, and and yet here we are at the beginning of a professional women's sport maybe epoch where we have the opportunity to look to different models. It's interesting because when I began a program a few years back called the Muscle Money Mindset, which was coaching for female executives, founders, CEOs, and advisors, the idea was to help them transform themselves from endurance athletes to shock-calling masters of their own destiny, performance athletes, people who could just sort of like run a hundred meters on a dime, not necessarily, but proverbially speaking, right? Like be able to go into flow at will. And it sounds a lot like, you know, this sustainable model that you're talking about, where the athletes at the very middle, it has this short-term potential of not being about money, which is what the old model is really about, right? Is maximizing dollars from the minute one at any cost. It has a short-term potential of not being about money, but it has a long-term potential of actually being more profitable because you're spending less time maybe integrating a new athlete every time someone blows a knee. So are there possible KPIs around this other sustainable model that could be financially like make it viable, or is it just a little bit too on the goodwill side of things? What do you think as somebody who's actually done this in teams?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, it's good because straight away I'm thinking of language you hear in the business world, attrition and retention of staff, right? And turnover of your employees. And what about that for the player? So rather than rather than running your players to the ground because it's all about output and performance metrics, why not think of, well, how can we keep them at a really high level? But actually, we want to retain them. We want to keep them playing really well for a longer period of time, and that actually might save us money. And wouldn't that be an interesting sort of statement to intent? So I think I think again it comes back to short-term performance versus potential long-term gain. And I think more often than not, right, that the tortoise can win. So I think um, again, head coach, manager, how have they been brought up, how have they been taught, what have they read? I think the teams that get that right, like there's a huge, there's a huge way of actually there was a great piece of science that came out of Australia a couple years ago, a fellow called Ben Darwin. He used to be a rugby player, he retired prematurely because of an injury, and he created he came up with this framework called the Teamwork Index, Cohesion Index. Basically, it was written in a book called Edge, and he wrote a l and and studied a lot on turnover of teams, and that the teams that had less turnover of players, never mind staff, ultimately probably did better because there was more stability in the system, there was less of having to get to know new people, and they actually won longer for the long run. So I think it's uh it's definitely something we should be looking at.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

It it I equate it to a dynastic way of thinking, you know, if we could extrapolate that onto the way that we steward our planet or we open up a new company or a new restaurant, you know, if we think about it in a longer-term sense, then we want to be forming and forging really bond, like good bonds and lasting relationships between, you know, vendors and suppliers and so forth. It's the same, I think, in any culture. And there are beautiful examples of that. And I will I will probably currently use the Toronto Blue Jays as a good example of that. That there are people who've come out who are Toronto Blue Jays in the last week or so saying, I don't care what anybody pays me as a Blue Jay or anywhere else, I'm staying a Blue Jay. And it's because they've forged such a powerful culture. So that's really, really helpful. I really like that distinction, and but but also the alignment and looking at how corporations kind of look at assets and employee retention and um churn versus the power that could come from a more sustainable athlete model. Now, I I said this word a couple minutes ago, or you did, one of us did, and you and I are both huge fans of flow and proponents of flow. And it's often talked about an individual state, but I think what we're hinting on here is that it can also operate at this collective team level, which is such a beautiful feeling when it happens. So, how does it become collective? How do you get there? Like, have you seen that happen in in teams that you've consulted with where it's just like all of a sudden the magic just presents itself?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

It's starting to become more, I suppose, seen even by the public when there's a team that let's use our language, looks like they're coherent, right? So it looks like they're on the same page and everything's clicking, and there's clarity of roles and intent and trust and alignment. And I think you see that in on a team, uh on a pitch, when you see something didn't quite go right, and a team huddles together, and they have a really strong conversation, and they come back and they kind of get it right. They they're in that sort of state where they trust each other, it's not, you know, there's no judgment here, there's clear intent, everyone understands their roles, and they're very much back to on the same page. You see that sometimes the Irish rugby team is getting a lot of press over the last couple of years where when they're collecting themselves, be it after they've made a great play or not so much, they come to a huddle and they they do breath work. The captain, Cale Andaris, reindarris' brother, and will yeah, will take the huddle and will get them to do some box breathing. And you've seen it, we see it on the broadsheets here on the front page, or you'll see it on the TV. And what are they doing? Well, they're probably sinking as a team into a state of group flow, right? And if if and I think where that's really interesting, if an individual has made a bad play, they've dropped the ball, they've given the ball away, they've laps of judgment, but you bring the team back collectively, again, this sense of coherence, what can we do to bring us back to an aligned sense of team? You know, you we can all understand when a team looks like they're playing together and playing as one unit. So I think those environment those sort of examples are becoming a little bit more obvious to the public when you can see those sort of signals. And I mean, we don't need to go into the kind of group triggers. That's maybe for people listening to your show, Jillian, but you can definitely see when you see a team that's not clicking, like team clicking, it's it's when they just look disjointed. And when they look like there's mixed signals and there's noise and they're not communicating well, and they don't quite know what they're doing and where they're going, and all this sort of obvious stuff, but that's why it's falling apart. So I think when all those things are coming together, that's a huddle, and that's a sort of strong we over an I. And I think that's what it can look like in a sort of team environment. That could be five players on a basketball court, that could be on an you know, that could be, you know, NHL team, you name it, right? But I think this the sort of signals and symptoms of that are quite clear to

SPEAKER_01 22:00

And it's hard not to think that in that first team that you described, Leinster, and in this team and with Kalen as the leader on the pitch, if you will. Trevor Burrus, Jr. He plays for Leinster. Okay, so there we go. It's hard not to think that the colloquial term we use, at least on this side of the pond, is the fish stinks from the head down. Like it's hard not to think that a lot of that really starts at the top. So how do leaders we can talk about how they create it. Those were great examples of how they create it. How do they unintentionally destroy those conditions? What gets in the way of being that kind of leader? Because it does kind of start with somebody telling us which direction to row the boat in.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I think if you don't know what direction you're going in, so if there's a lack of a of a, you know, let's use the sports analogy that can be translated to business. If there's a lack of a clear game model, like how can we win? What does success look like? What do we need to do to succeed? That's translatable to any domain. I think if there's a sense of there's a lack of strength through relationships, right? So again, lack of trust, broken communication, feedback's not quite what it needs to be, you know, too much noise, not enough signal, like all those kind of things. I'm a huge believer, like I ran an event, Julie, in November, and like we started the event spending two hours talking about clarity and communication. Like collaboration and connection and community and all these wonderful things, I think, come after everyone's really clear on what they're doing, and when communication is as it needs to be in the system for the people that works. But I think if you get either of them wrong, then it comes back to the question you asked. That's when you start to see problems and when conditions aren't being met, and when you just don't get into that sort of sense of to, you know, a shared sort of flow state.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

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SPEAKER_00 26:35

Oof. Again, like I love energy. I'm a big believer. People should be able to map their energy and understand what gives them energy, what takes energy, right? And I've done that with 50 teams and businesses. And so I think, and it's quite easy to gauge it and kind of look at your week. I think energy, I think giving a sense as to scoring as to quality of a relationship, like level of like the trust quotient, that trust equation. Yeah. And then that dovetails in with feedback mechanisms. I'd be looking at that. I think that's you know, for a high flow environment that's high challenge but high support. High, you know, you need feedback, you need good comms. That leads itself to Amy Edmondson's work, right? You know, that sense as to this is a psychologically safe environment where we can make and admit a mistake, but we're gonna keep moving forward. Um perma, right? I mean, we've we've rolled we've rolled that out now with with two teams recently as part of a strategic pause, essentially just a set of questions for the players, front office coaches, and performance staff.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Pause there for a second. For people who don't know what PERMA is, before you go into describing how you rolled it out, can you just give give the definition of what PERMA means, what it stands for?

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a fellow called Martin Seligman came up with PERMA, and you know, I'd say everyone go and have a look. There's this beautiful wheel, and they all look pretty similar, right? But it's a way of you scoring as to how you are in terms of P for positive emotion, E for engagement, how engaged you are with you know your work, your job, relationships is the R. So again, you know, I'm a big believer. I think relationship connection is massively important in an environment. M, you know, Gillian, you said it a couple of minutes ago, kind of meaning, you know, so what? Like, is this really important? Do I understand what I'm doing? And then A speaks for accomplishment, accomplishment. So again, that kind of sort of, you know, that loftiness level of the North Star. So I think again, you know, we rolled it out with two teams recently where off the back of the normal sort of questions in the type form survey, we said, have a look at this model, engage yourselves out of five where you think you are on this perma sort of um wheel. And it was really interesting because some people would, you know, think they have they're really engaged with their works and everything, very strong with the relationships, but you know, it might be lack of meaning. And like that's really profound, and there's a lot of insight there.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So yeah, that's one of the massive building blocks. If there isn't a feeling of meaning and nobody's really diagnosed that, then we gotta fix that before we can fix anything else. I want to talk specifically. You mentioned energy, and it's been one of my big topics to try and help other people understand by unpacking it with guests once in a while. Because unlike these phones that we carry around and that do everything for us, we don't have little meters on us that tell us when we're charged, and we don't have, you know, an indicator necessarily or a great index of what depletes our energy or adds to it, which is why I think the the importance of an energy audit like you're talking about is so important. But I I look at that in the same through the same lens as I look at attention, which is that that's another that's another thing that we don't really have a great gauge for, not the same way we do with time, and certainly not the same way we do with understanding a quantum of money. So I'm wondering what happens or where do you have opinions or observations at the intersection of those two things, of energy and attention? Because I think when one is depleted, the other's depleted, but also spending too much in one area can actually deplete the other. So is that a thing that you see? And what are your comments on that intersection?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, like where attention goes, energy flows or performance goes. I think I'm a huge believer that you know you have to look after your energy, right? And if something's killing or depleting your energy, try to identify and find the sources of it. Now, it's not to say we all have jobs that r require and take energy from us that we kind of have to do, but you don't want that to be the case too often. So I think understanding, like I often talk about this quadrant of mapping your energy and understanding what replenishes your energy and where you get recovery from. And you need to find you need to find moments in a day and in a week where you understand that can be something as simple as getting fresh air and life, or drinking water, or it could be doing a yoga nidra, or it could be doing a gym session, or it could be spending time with your children, or ending early on a Friday. So I think really mapping energy in a week is is massively insightful to help you understand. Actually, I always think kids drive me crazy, but actually they give me a lot of good energy. So it will help you sometimes frame things different. And I think, yeah, attention, of course, it's definitely worth interrogating where you put your attention, right? If you have the opportunity, the job allows for it, the autonomy, the time, if you can unpack where you're putting your attention, therefore you're not putting attention somewhere else more often than not. I think anyway, energy kind of goes hand in hand with it more often than not. So if you're pouring a lot of attention over into this project or this conversation or this relationship, that might give you energy or take your energy.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

And again, just you need to know it. You need to figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

You need to be able to define it. You need to know it. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

So when you look at a great team, uh like this this term called cognitive bandwidth, which is the ability to sort of have the space to take on focus, uh, how do great teams protect their cognitive bandwidth? What are they doing differently? And I I asked this question almost selfishly, but also for my son. What does a great team do in a training environment, before a game, maybe in their when they're in sort of a lockdown situation, only being with each other? What are they doing? Or what do you even prescribe they do in order to protect that cognitive bandwidth?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Try not to make it too complicated. Like we in our world now we love we love complicated things, we love complexity, we're always trying to keep up. So I think for for your family or for, you know, trying to keep it simple. Like, what do you need to do? What are the priorities? What's important? What are the three things today? It doesn't have to be eight things. Can you say it in five words rather than nine words? Like simple language, feynman technique, all that kind of stuff. And I think um, like I'm a big like we said it a couple of minutes ago, like I'm a big believer in prioritization, the whole Eisenhower matrix, importance and urgency. And I think for people that don't know that, have a look at it. It's been it's been so important for me. And when I lecture, I always bring that in. But I think there's a lot of stuff that you don't need to get caught up into, and there's a lot of stuff you don't have to do, and there's a lot of stuff that maybe you can delegate or just delete. So try to, and I'd say the last thing too, with AI, which we might get to, Jillian, I'm sure, we can find ways to help um remove us having to duplicate things, right? So if there's something that's repeating itself more often, just you don't probably have to do it as much. So again, I think if you want to look after your your yourself a little bit more, do less, keep it a bit simpler, and can you find a way that someone else can do it for you? If it's possible that maybe that is AI, that'll free up time for you.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah, I think a lot of people for for in a lot of circumstances, they probably find that the most control they can get is by having a fixed routine of what they do and what someone else does. But what you're proposing, I think, is even more liberating, which is always be questioning what it is that you do, because right now it seems like we have an increasing number of tools and agents that can help take some of that load off. But also we have an increasing number of things that are maybe being asked of us that aren't necessary. They're just noise. And I really like that idea of continuously updating the program, like updating, and you're very good at that. Like ever since I've known you, you're always in a process of it's not reinvention, it's refinement of how you invest your time and your energy.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I'll just add to that before we move on, but thanks. I think another exercise for people to do that, again, I've done it for myself and for others, is like if you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious or there's a lot going on, and oh my God, where do I start? Just write on a sheet of paper like controllables and uncontrollables. And I think firstly, getting it out of your head and onto paper, analog, like I have a notepad here.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

With a pen, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

With a pen, that's what I'm using today.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Firstly, when you write down what you can control and what you can't control, it's so hard. I don't get it right half the time. And even today I didn't get it right. There's a lot of stuff I wanted to control, but I couldn't. But I think it gives you it, it's liberating and it gives you headspace. And I think for people that feel a little bit, you know, there's a lot going on. I think doing something as simple as that that takes five minutes can really help.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

It's brilliant. And it's actually a question that I put in my pre-meeting kit for any of my clients that I work with. One of the sections, it's only three sections long, but one of the sections asks them to identify the things that are causing them stress right now. And more often than not, the ones that they are able to control are not causing them stress. The ones that they are not able to control, like the markets or geopolitical or what have you, those are the things that are giving them stress. And so what I love about your exercise is A, it's simple. Anyone can do it anytime. B, we're using a pen and we're taking a pause, which means we're probably breathing differently than we were when we before we started to write it down. And C, you're cognitively looking at this list of things that you've labeled as I have no control over this. And therefore, what would you do with that? Like, what's your next step once you have the list of the things you can't control? Do you have a process? Do you have a yeah?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah. And again, like I use it's I use it for me to kill loops that don't serve me, right? So to that point, if there's something happen happening in the stock market that's like, oh my God, that's crashing, but you write it down and maybe you know you bought it and you're gonna leave it and you can't control it per se, it can stop the rumination for a moment. You know, and I would be one that tends to ruminate or sometimes thinks about things, especially if it's my family or or something you know, health related. But if you've done what you can, put it down on paper and cross it off. And let it go. Oh, I love the crossing it off. Yeah, let it go.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

That's that's the thing, the letting it go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

And then and then tear the sheet of paper and the whole sense as to throwing it into a bin, you know, it does all these beautiful things for our biology, right? So I think um keep it simple, you know, find that system that works for you and cross the cross those lines off. It'll feel good for your brain.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Fantastic. Now, I know one of your passions, you know, you you're working individually with teams, you're working across different types of teams and different sports, but I think you also have a bit of a desire for change at scale. I'm wondering what your thoughts are. For change at scale, what does that look like in professional sport if you if you could envision it or if you have?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I think some teams think it's all about people, right? Let's hire, let's hire, let's hire, let's bring in more. Not sure sometimes, but I've seen examples when there's just too many people and then there's a lack of RR and people don't know really what they're doing, and there's too uh it doesn't quite work out. Like I've actually really learned in the last couple of years, I think if you get systems and processes really tight and strong, and you've got the right people on the right seats on the right bus, that boat does go faster, right? But I think a lot of it comes down to if you want to scale fast, right? Mass is a scale, Reed Hoffman and all that wonderful stuff, get those basics, like the whole Tim Duncan fundamentals. I think if you know he kissed it off the glass and became a Hall of Famer, I think get your daily routines down and Gillian, you know, who knows better than you about this sort of thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Well, you know, you and I both resonate well on that. We know the central importance of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

But if if an organization is trying to change at scale, look at your routines, look at behaviors, mirror, look at what you're doing, look at what you're measuring, like, you know, Drucker if you can't measure it, right? Look at your organizational metrics and what do you where are you trying to get better and why are you trying to get better there? Like ask that second question. And then I think you can build the systems around it so that you can repeat success more consistently, and then you can scale, you know, with velocity quicker. But I think you know, if you're trying to set up more leaders in your department, you can develop them. You don't, you know, you can develop them, but you can't just assume they're gonna develop. You need to create the environment and the culture and the process and the space to allow them to get to the point where they're developing. And I think that's the same with recruitment, that's the same with again just creating that sense when you walk into a place that, well, they're moving fast, but they're moving fast at a high level and they're just getting better as they move fast.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Oh, that's so nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Otherwise, you're just gonna move fast and it'll fall apart. So I think that's the simple stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Uh, we before we came on today, we talked also about, you know, I had this thesis that professional sport was moving ahead, and then corporate culture looks to professional sport to create elite performance, and you have this thesis that it actually often goes the other way. And one of the observations you made is that in corporate land, we have things like best places to work. We have these aspirational awards that you can, or titles that you can apply for by hitting a criteria. And you mentioned that that doesn't exist in sport, and I thought that was really interesting. Is that is that something that could actually produce change at scale for sport? Is that something that you think is a good idea, or does that lend itself to a whole other level of bureaucracy and who knows what that's not so good? Is there a is there a sweet spot that could be struck that could be useful?

SPEAKER_00 40:57

I think it'd be great looking at case studies on the sweet spot. It's what it's definitely going to be a passion project. I think um, yeah, like it's definitely something I'm seeing that I you would think sport is ahead. I think the teams can call us and tell us if we're wrong, but I don't know many teams that would have accredited best place to work, great place to work, keep well mark, what we call it over here. And basically that's an accredited well-being standard, right? As to, you know, ISO quality management, as to how we do things from a well-being sort of provision of service and people. And yeah, like why does a, if you look at a franchise in the States, there's the sports side, there's the business side, they do spend time together, they all want to win. Why are we not seeing teams striving not just to tick the box, but to do it for all the reasons that actually would make a big difference to retention, to developing those leaders, to getting players to last longer at a higher level, to probably improve evaluation of the teams, to get more bums in seats and jersey sales. And I mean, I had that question six years ago, Jidin, seven years ago, and it's it's still there. Like I still don't see many sports teams. You see a couple of teams now that are looking at positive psychology and performance psychology staff, but I still don't see many departments or ecosystems geared around bringing that in. So I think there's still loads of work to be done in the sports world on that um, yeah, you know, just this is a good place to work. We don't want to burn out. Intensity is fine, but we're gonna look after everyone here.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

And maybe that ends up converting. Maybe that translates, maybe that translates to championships in a different way or uh not in a different way, in the only way, because the there's only one way to win a championship. But you'd like to think that if you did do that passion project study of the sweet spot of who's actually done it right, you'd find that they, in reaching that point, prevented a lot of waste. I think that's one of my like peas, pet peeves in the world is waste. I hate waste because it's just like waste of potential, waste of money, waste of resources, waste of talent. You'd like to think that if if they were doing all those things right, and maybe that's a key to making the index appropriate, is that it's about preventing waste of those resources that are important, including sustainable human talent and lifespan and health span and all that stuff. So I think you're the guy for the job. I think you're the one who's gonna make this international standard for sports.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Yeah, just I was just saying too, like waste is a terrible word. And I think the flip is like, can we care a little bit more about people in the and like 100% like I'm not just saying that, I think care, consideration. I was speaking to someone yesterday, last night at a team, head of HR, head of people. She just seemed really stressed. And I was like, Why are you so stressed? And he says, hard at the moment. I was like, why is it so hard at the moment? She's like, people are kind of bickering and giving out. I was like, why? Is there a different way? Can there not be a different way? So again, it's just that's that's definitely a rabbit hole for for me. But I think I'd like to find more because a rising tide lifts all boats. But yeah, there's a lot of teams that they're okay if people work long and intensity and burnout is just part of what's on the walls. And I don't know. I'm not a fan.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

I don't know either. And I I mean, as we get to this last question, my closing question, which does pertain to AI, I guess one of my hopes, but it is also a worry, sort of like waste is also the flip side of caring. One of my hopes is that by rising the tide using AI, that some of this busy work that causes people to feel like they're burning out could be replaced by a knowledge base that is very, very fast and based on great information. But I think the flip side of that is we also run the risk of AI having us move faster and we don't, we still don't recover. And that's just going to amplify the kind of culture you're talking about where people are burning out, people are tired because they're running too hard. So I don't know if you have any comments on that. You can factor it into this answer on the last question, which is the the question I'm asking every guest this season has to do with AI. Looking ahead, the most meaningful way that you are using or you imagine using AI to create more time, clarity, impact, et cetera, for yourself. This is kind of your open David Clancy AI question. How would you like to tackle it? Tell me anything.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

I love what you said before the question. I think busyness is a problem, right? Like when I feel I'm going busy, like that's just a that's just a recipe for destruction. So I think where I've learned to bring AI in, and then where our company has become more AI and tech enabled is just remove the stuff that the humans aren't supposed to be doing as much, or we don't have to be doing, because that's not our sweet spot. That's not where our magic or strength is. So admin the ops stuff, um, the automation things, the process stuff that doesn't need us, you know, and we're big advocates for creativity, Jideon. So I think I think if people are gonna again, and it's so easy to get overwhelmed with AI. I mean, I was listening to Peter Diamandis and Musk yesterday for 20 minutes, and I went, oh my god, like this is if Elon is saying that every morning he's waking up and there's something else, it's like, oh my god, what about the rest of us? So I'm um I I kind of only stick to the couple of lanes of AI that have helped so far, and then I maybe add one new tool when I feel I'm ready for it, and I try to ask someone who's played around with it, or I go onto HubSpot, or you know, I do a little mini course in it, and I try to integrate that personally and then into our team system, and that way I don't get too overwhelmed. And I feel so I feel for anyone who's trying to bring it to life is again ask where could something like that bring benefit and help me, and there's definitely a solution there for you out there, and have a go, don't be afraid. Like it's it's helped us massively with content and brand and systems and flows for recruitment and all these sort of outreach programs. So, again, it can free up so much time, but don't feel you need to use every tool under the sun. Like you can be selective and you can always play around with a few and find the ones that work for you. And so that's kind of where my head goes, Jidean.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

I like it. It's a very measured approach where you are dosing the use of it experimentally. And then I think that's a real powerful word you used, which was integrating like carefully. You're integrating mindfully. You're not bringing it all in like a fire hose, which is I think where the overwhelm can happen. So that's very, very hard.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

This would be iterative, you know?

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Exactly. Iterative, such a good word. Such a good word. Well, you know, as I said earlier, I think elite sports always been a laboratory for human performance, but the question is whether or not it can also become a laboratory for human flourishing. And I think you've given us some really clear direction on how that's possible today. David Clancy, I want to thank you so much for joining me, and I wish you the most wonderful day.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Julie, an absolute pleasure to spend time with you today. Um, wishing you all the best. Thanks very much for that. It was great.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Thank you. Join me next week on the Flourish Feed Podcast to keep exploring the infinite game. In the meantime, remember to stay curious, turn your passions into purpose, and play hard. I'm rooting for you. This program was prepared by Gillian Stovell Rivers, who was a senior wealth advisor with CI Asante Wealth Management. This is not an official program of CI Asante Wealth Management, and the statements and opinions expressed during this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of CI Asante Wealth Management. This show is intended for general information only and may not apply to all listeners or investors. Please obtain professional financial advice or contact Gillian to discuss your particular circumstances prior to acting on the information presented.