#37 - The Wisdom of Leadership

In this episode, Gillian and guest Andrew Cohn of Lighthouse Consulting LLC discuss the evolution of leadership in an age of abundance, the importance of internal clarity, stakeholder capitalism, and practical strategies for fostering presence and innovation in organizations. 

Andrew brings a rare blend of executive leadership development, psychology, mindfulness, and real-world business experience to the conversation. Having coached leaders and teams across global organizations, from Fortune 500 companies to mission-driven nonprofits, Andrew helps people navigate complexity, conflict, purpose, and performance without losing themselves in the process. In this episode, we explore what it means to lead with intention, build resilient cultures, and align achievement with deeper meaning. 

His unique perspective - shaped by careers in law, leadership consulting, higher education, and spiritual psychology - offers a powerful lens on flourishing in both work and life.


Key Topics, Action Items & Concepts:
• The shift from scarcity to abundance in leadership environments
• The importance of presence and internal clarity as leadership assets
• Transitioning from shareholder to stakeholder capitalism
• Balancing internal development with external capabilities
• Strategies for fostering group flow and psychological safety
• Ask impactful questions to shift mindsets.
• Create protected spaces for reflection and dialogue.
• Slow down to align and build trust before moving fast.
• Use technology to facilitate inclusive decision-making.
• Practice mindfulness and presence daily.
• Stakeholder Capitalism
• Group Flow
• Inner and Outer Development


Quotes:
"Change inputs to change perspectives."
“We're drowning in information, but starving for wisdom.”
“Questions subvert mindsets.”
“It's not just how do we optimize profits—it’s who else will be impacted by this decision?”
“We have an agenda, but we also need to be open and present to what else is trying to emerge.”
“Efficiency is the enemy of innovation.”
“You can't go from ‘Hi, how are you?’ to high performance without first creating alignment.”
“If we don't slow down and take the time to align, we can only go so fast.”
“We need to be challenged, but we don't need to be overwhelmed.”
“Threats to our identity are freaking scary.”
“AI can help me find what I haven't found and see what I haven't seen.”

Chapters
00:00 The Human Operating System in Abundance
03:53 Challenges in Leadership Today
07:30 Shifting from Shareholder to Stakeholder Capitalism
11:36 The Power of Impactful Questions
15:18 Creating Group Flow and Psychological Safety
19:35 The Rift Between Internal and External Development
24:13 Navigating Identity in Transition
28:07 The Power of the Pause
33:50 Creating an Emotional Environment for Leadership
36:16 The Role of AI in Personal and Professional Growth


Check out Andrew’s work & resources:
Lighthouse Consulting LLC - https://lighthouseconsultingllc.com
Spirituality and Leadership Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spirituality-and-leadership/id1691234567 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewcohnusa/ 


#flourish #wealth #wealthmanagement #investing #advisor #KnowThyWealthKnowThyself 

Connect with Gillian: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillian-stovel-rivers-ma-cfp%C2%AE-cea-997094124/?originalSubdomain=ca   
https://x.com/GillianStovelR 
https://www.instagram.com/gillianstov... 
https://flourishfamilywealth.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

The Flourish Feed Podcast, a series of curiosity-driven deep dives into the nature of flourishing through wealth. I'm your host, Gillian Stoville Rivers, M A C F P C E A, Senior Wealth Advisor at CIA Sante Wealth Management.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

If we don't slow down and take the time to align, we can only go so fast. We're going to be bumping into each other. And when these groups do slow down and take the time to do this and get past that aggravation and the frustration that it's not going as fast as I want. Hello, how many of us experience that like every day? Oh yeah. It's not, it's not going as fast as I want. But if we can allow for that, and this is where it's so great to be like guided by people who are experts or whatever, take a little bit of time, set the expectation. We're going to spend the morning doing this. Relax. Leave your phone somewhere else, please. You know, that when they actually can do it, they can go much faster than they ever thought imaginable.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

In a world where intelligence is abundant, tools are accelerating, and external constraints are falling away, the limiting factor is no longer capability. It's the human operating system. In today's episode of the Flourish Feed Podcast, my esteemed guest, Andrew Cohen and I explore what governs human behavior when survival is no longer the primary driver, how leaders regulate themselves in environments of abundance, speed, and complexity, and why attention, presence, and internal clarity are becoming the scarcest forms of wealth, but perhaps the most valuable. Before we get to that, though, let's get to know Andrew a little bit. Andrew Cohn is a founder and principal of Lighthouse Consulting LLC. For over 20 years, he has worked globally as a counselor, facilitator, and executive coach for businesses and individuals. Andrew's work improves his clients' business results and culture and enhances individual performance and satisfaction. He has coached and trained on a variety of issues, including empowering teams, cultural change, interpersonal effectiveness, diversity and inclusion, mindset, purpose, legacy, strategic thinking, cross-cultural leadership, managing conflict, and that ever-elusive work-life balance. He designs and facilitates trainings and team meetings globally to optimize achievement and engagement in alignment with organizational and individual values. Andrew helps focus leaders at all levels on what matters most, both professionally and personally, and how to effectively act on it. He also provides his clients with impactful experiential learning opportunities, including men's retreats and outdoor learning experiences. He has also taught leadership, ethics, mindfulness, and conflict management at the MBA and undergraduate levels, and he coaches MBA students at the Wharton School of Business. In 2023, Andrew launched the podcast, Spirituality and Leadership. Andrew Cone, welcome to the FlareSpeed Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Thank you. It's so good to be with you in this uh international technologically supported environment.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yes. Well, and we're connecting today from across the world. You're currently in Mexico. How long have you been there?

SPEAKER_03 3:06

I've been in Mexico City for five months, actually. Yeah. It's a wonderful place, great experience, beautiful city, great people.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

I have to say, one of the things that puts me off a little bit about the idea of Mexico City is the height at which you live. Don't you live at an incredible altitude? Do you find that that's been something to get used to? Or are you you're such a uh a veteran of Mexico City that it's not that difficult anymore?

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Aaron Powell No, the the altitude is is a thing. Uh however, before this, I was living in northern New Mexico where the altitude was about the same.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

And that took some time to get used to. No, the tougher thing about this place, which is very interesting because I did not anticipate it, probably should have, is the quality of the air. The air quality here is just poor. Uh there's a lot of contamination. This time of year, there's pollen as well. So over the weekend, I was in the I was at the Caribbean and everything, I just I slept better, I moved better because the air was excellent. And anyway, yes. It's you know, the things that we don't, the unexpected things, like wait a minute, why what's happening? Why am I having this difficulty with A, B, and C? Oh, wait, that's right. Here's this thing that I didn't anticipate. So the learning continues.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

There you go. You might be good at the altitude, but the air quality still gets you. We always have something we can learn. That's perfect. Okay, what a great way to segue to get going today. Now, much of leadership thinking was built just as the human operating system was built in environments of scarcity. It's kind of how the human brain was wired thousands and thousands of years ago. Limited information, slower decision cycles, clearer constraints. I think back even to when I was first growing up and even in the environment of the 80s and 90s, there was maybe one or two newscasts a night. There was no social media. There was a lot fewer data points upon which to make leadership decisions. But today we operate in this world of information abundance, AI, and increasing amounts of optionality. So from your perspective, especially working with senior leaders, what is a real challenge in leadership right now when it comes to this confluence of factors?

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Well, it's a great question. And it's not, you know, this is one of these things where the answer is simple but not easy. So it's, you know, I remember seeing something recently that said, you know, we're we're drowning in information but starving for wisdom, you know, right? So there's more than enough information. Now, whether or not the information is accurate is another thing, which is a whole monumental crisis in my country. I don't mean metabolity in the US, it's just insane the amount of false information and manipulative information that's out there. But even assuming the information is accurate, how do we choose? How do we prioritize, both in terms of decision-making, you know, rational decision-making, but also in terms of other types of decisions that aren't just about intellectual decision making? So, how do we take in information from both sides of our brain that will inform not just the best technical, new, you know, numerical, statistical, you know, intellectually supported decision, but also the right decision given everything, meaning the people we are leading, uh, the per the people we are, the people we're supporting at home. So there's so I'm answering that on a bunch of different levels. There's how can we, how can we discern amongst the most accurate information, and then how can we look at that information through various filters and levels that makes the best decision for all stakeholders. One of my podcast guests was making, he's an economist, and he has a platform now called Awakened Economics. And this is a delightful, different take on economics, and he talks about the move from shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism, which includes communities and the environment. It certainly doesn't neglect the good old capitalistic market, but it's no, it needs to be more informed. There's other stakeholders that need to be involved. And similarly, when we make decisions, it's not just, oh, how do we optimize profits with this customer with this market at this time? It's short-sighted.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Limited, limited, limited is a better way.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, and and the way that we've looked at this lately with other episodes that have to do with, you know, female financial decision making or information related to women's health that it has presently and historically not been available. We're not looking at it as the system is wrong. We're looking at it as the system is incomplete. And shareholder capitalism is a system that is operating on too few lenses, maybe based on too few identities of who's actually. I really like that a lot. And those possibilities that it brings for different layers of discernment and different types of identities that you have to assume in order to make great decisions. So, how do you begin the conversation with a client? Maybe that's a great place to start to try and bring them from a place of shareholder ownership and consideration to stakeholder capitalism.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Great question, broad question, but we'll take a crack at it. In the work that we do, and and perhaps you would answer the question the same way, I think that we, you know, we always meet clients where we find them, right? So what's the presenting issue? So presenting issue is where, you know, our turnovers too high, we're losing people in that sense of the word turnover. We are our competition in the business world anyway. And again, I work in a different place than you do in terms of typical client interactions and what my work is about. So I'm just acknowledging that, which is obvious to your listeners because they know what you do.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, but I think there's going to be some overlap. So keep going, because I think I'm going to find some alignment here.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

I think so too. But, you know, so what's the presenting issue? So is it we're losing market share? Is it we we need to grow in this area? We're committed to moving into this new market, we're losing people, our teams are underperforming, our satisfaction scores are low, whatever it might be. And then to, as we dig into that, I mean, one of the questions, the first thing that came into my mind, which is which is often helpful but incomplete, is you know, the question, and by the way, I'm a very, very big believer in asking impactful questions. I read this somewhere, it's not my expression, but I firmly believe that questions subvert mindsets. I've heard that said. I think that's a really powerful expression, you know, and a question that I'll just sort of like, huh? Right? And you ask questions like that in the course of I've heard some of your podcast and some of the way you describe some of the work that you do. And you ask people to evaluate wealth differently or legacy differently, and you'll ask a question of people like, right? What's onto that?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

You know?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

That's kind of a great place to get somebody though, in a moment of new understanding about something.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So I I imagine you're pretty good at those questions.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Well, I I try to be, and it's if I can tune in, if I can listen, if I can set aside, you know, it's always a balance, right? Between what's my agenda and what I think is good for the client with this particular part of my brain, and then what do I need to be open to? What's a the client really after, which this part of my brain might not even know about? So, how do I balance between having an agenda moving forward and also being open and present, which is really every leader's challenge, right? I have an agenda, I have my deliverables, I have to get this done, but I also need to be open and present, and I know we will talk about presence to what else is going on and what, you know, like what may come up right now that's going to shift the trajectory of this stated intention? Because something will probably come up if I'm making it. But to answer your question, because I will do that, one question that comes to mind uh in terms of redirecting to a broader stakeholder view is is who else will be impacted by this decision and how will they be impacted? Because we tend to look at, oh, well, I'm gonna make this decision and I'm gonna trade off these two things for these two things, but often there's a lot more than two things. So that involves to uncover that is asking a question like that, getting other voices in the room, right? Who else needs to be part of this conversation? Now, of course, we don't want to have decision-making meetings with 500 people unless, of course, we have very good technology, and that's a whole other thing that I've worked in, which is fascinating. How do you use technology to bridge? So you don't no longer need to have small interactive meetings or large information pushing meetings where people aren't participating, but through the use of technology, you can have both. But in any case, who else needs to be part of this decision? What other inputs do we need? There's other ways to do that in meetings. Who do we, who do we assign to be a devil's advocate? What other views, you know, are we not hearing? And but that of course can be difficult, especially if people are deciding at the 11th hour or they're so focused on driving their individual agenda, they're not open to considering, well, what else, who else, where else? But that a question like that can be super helpful because it'll redirect us, and I suffer from this as well. It's like I have something in my head, let's go. Sure. You know?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Well, you want to add value and you think you have an you have a great idea. I remember back in my earlier careers as uh when I when I trained as an actor in in my 20s, and I went to a masterclass with Uda Hagen, who was a uh one of the original method actors. And she said very clearly, as soon as you think you have an idea, just sit down, wait for it to pass. And sometimes I think, I really need to remember Uda Hagen's advice these days, because when we, as somebody who wants to add value and show leadership, have an idea, it's just like such a small part of the whole as far as what it is that we're finally going to deliver when it's all done. So tell me a little bit about being, I I guess one of the first things that it made me think of when you were talking about getting people into certain kinds of situations to get them to open up and have these different perspectives was the concept of group flow and group flow being getting people into a state where they are open, where there is a sense of shared risk, where there's psychological safety, where there's a sense of a shared pursuit. Do you have particular tricks or tips or universal ideas that you use to bring people together and bring them to that space? Or is that something that you count on the leadership that you're working with to do?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

No, I definitely do not count on the leadership I'm working with to do because the fact that they they that they need it in my observation, oh well, that's my agenda, Uda, careful. They need support. That's why they're asking me. They want to do something a little bit differently, maybe not dramatically differently, but a little bit differently. So, I mean, God, there's so many ways to answer that question. Sensory deprivation is always good, but it can't always be relied upon. But I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Well, I was gonna say, explain.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Yes, explain. Say more. But to some extent, there is a sense, like if we want to change the way we're thinking about something, we need to change the inputs. We need to change, you know, it's similarly like if we want to change the quality of our conversation, we need to change some of the dynamics or dimensions of that conversation, which might mean we need to meet in a different place. If I want to have a conversation with you about something that is really important to me andor really important to you, I'm gonna create the circumstances that are going to show that I'm treating this as a very important conversation. Jill, you know there's something I really want to talk with you about. Can we take a long? We have a protected space. Let me bring you a cup of coffee. I know you like your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, favorite frappe, you know, whatever it is. No sugar for you, but whatever, you know, and I'll bring that to you. And because we want to just create some boundary protected, different space. You know, whatever adjective you want to say, it's not sacred space, it's not what, but it's distinct, separate space. And that's that's a scourge of leadership is where are the separate spaces to think, to operate, to engage with people? Because what happens is we get in rooms and we do what we've always done because we're running so fast, we're so pressed for time, and this is just the way we do things. And so we go to habituated behavior because that's what our brains do in order to operate efficient efficiently, right? But as you know, of course, and this is a bit of a bumper sticker, but you know, efficiency is the opposite, is the enemy of innovation, right? If you want to do something differently, it's not going to be efficient, and we have to allow for that. So, one of the things that I'll do is I'll I'll set some expectations and say just understand we're going to do something different. It's going to feel like you're running in water, you know, at least for some period of time, because we're used to operating in a certain space. So, one of the ways that I'll do that is I might just in a in a in a team to talk about something very important, I'll tee up. These are the things that we've agreed to talk about. So we've got some people's attention, and then I'll say, for example, and what I'd like you to do is close your eyes and take three or five deep breaths at a slower speed, you know, maybe eight, ten seconds for a girl. Even if I'm to do that now, it's gonna feel awkward for a group.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, but it's synchrony. We're bringing people to a common rhythm as well by slowing them down.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Right. Well, exactly. And one of the things we do, uh we've done for years at at Morton when we work with executive education, for example, and the highest levels of leaders, and I'm this is where I love some experiential learning, is and you know, I mean, you do things in the very physical world with some of the some of the you know weightlifting that you do, is there's some things that you can learn in the body that you just can't, you have to learn it through the body.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

True.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

And so one of the things that we do, and and and your listeners can envision this, even though they they probably haven't done it, is we take groups down to the boathouse on the Scooko River in Philadelphia, where where Penn and Temple and LaSalle have their racing teams, and we put them in these boats that with seven, I think seven people. What? And you have got to row at a certain pace. If you try to go too fast or if you're too slow, you're gonna clunk into these other people, and you're not gonna go anywhere. And it's very aggravating. And so we rely on the professionals who've done this to put us in the right sequence based upon our experience, our strength, our size, or whatever. There's one person giving the instruction about when to stroke, and I have to pay attention to the person in front of me and the person behind me, or else it's gonna be a shit show. Yes. I don't know if I can say that in the podcast. And and uh you see the airwaves in Canada are just more free, so I can say no.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

They're just friendly.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

But here you go. And so an exercise like that just illustrates so clear. It's one thing for me to say, well, you have to slow down in order to align with people, and when you're aligned, you can go really fast. But you can't go from hi, how are you, to really fast without aligning in some meaningful ways. And that alignment could mean alignment about our operating system, about our beliefs, it could be a level of trust. So that's interpersonal alignment. It could be alignment on what's my sense of like how, what methods are we gonna use to advance this merger or this expanding into this market, or how are we gonna deal with this or that problem? So there's there's intellectual alignment and there's interpersonal alignment and and more as well. But if we don't slow down and take the time to align, we can only go so fast. We're gonna be bumping into each other. And when these groups do slow down and take the time to do this and get past that aggravation and the frustration that it's not going as fast as I want. Hello, how many of us experience that like every day? Oh, yeah. It's not, it's not going as fast as I want. But if we can allow for that, and this is where it's so great to be like guided by people who are experts or whatever, take a little bit of time, set the expectation. We're gonna spend the morning doing this, relax, leave your phone somewhere else, please, you know, that when they actually can do it, they can go much faster than they ever thought imaginable. And it's invigorating and it's like it's inspiring. So I'm like oh my God, where can I do this? Yes, in other areas of my life.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

It is such a great point, and learning it either through the breath or through something as physical as rowing. You do need that kind of hit in the side of the head to go, oh, okay, that's how you do it. And the level of empowerment you must be able to detect in teams once they finally figure out how to do that is incredible. Literally turning them into solo performers to people who are all moving at speed together. But I want to ask a little bit about the internal versus external, because you know, rowing's a good example of of an external capability. But some people on that team, even when they do get synchronized with each other, they might have a be at a different stage of internal development than their peers. So what happens when a person's external capability outpaces their internal development or or even their sense of purpose? What happens when we have that rift between internal and external?

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Yeah, well, that can happen a lot of different ways. The first example where I where I kind of thought you were going, which is one example, is I'm not quite, like I don't quite feel like capable enough, by the way, which doesn't mean that I'm not supremely capable, because I could be my most, my most severe critic. I could be a super high performer, but I'm always going to see myself as one step behind, two steps behind because of something that happened way back when, et cetera. And so there's that piece. And of course, there's the root there's the inverse, which is I'm God's gift to everything, and I just suck at it, but I'm not willing to hear the feedback, which is where sometimes coaching and feedback can come into play. But, you know, there's there's a lot of ways I've heard this um uh explained or defined. Some people talk about the difference between uh the external performance development as sort of like the performance line or the goal line, and the internal development as the learning line on a deeper level, some people call this the soul line, but it's sort of like what what's the what's the outside and what's the inside. One of the things that that happens, and I know that this is of great interest to you, is at a certain stage of our of our lives, we start to care a lot less about that external goal line stuff, either because we've, as you said in the introduction, we've been successful, right? Uh or at least successful in that sense, right? But there's something missing on the internal side. It's sort of like, okay, well, what's it all about? Okay, well, I've done all this, but I'm not happy. Either because I I've never thought about it, or because I have thought about it, but I'm still thinking in terms of what I was taught as a kid about happiness, which for most of us is not much. Or what was modeled for us and the homes we grew up in want to demonstrate and model that sort of happiness in different ways, uh different meaningful ways in different dimensions of our you know, real personal lives, personal personal lives. So, but this is when you've got, you know, there's a lack of integration, there's a lack of groundedness. There's sort of like there's only so far we can go. I think of it a little bit like, at least with the cartoons that I grew up in in the US, where sometimes the cartoon character like takes off really quickly, and like the body moves really quickly, but the head's left behind and it's and the head has to catch up. That's right. And so you have this this sort of disintegration, if you will, or or or separation doesn't happen. And so this is why now, especially in the in the demographics and in the you know, at least in the US, there's there's a lot of a lot written about this right now. Um, you know, authors like Richard Rohr and Arthur Brooks and Chip Conley and people who are writing about um satisfaction or fulfillment. And is this all there is? And because there is a chunk of the population, which by the way, still is a minor minority of the population, but it's a vocal minority, that has been financially successful, and it's like, okay, now what?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Now what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Now what?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Traditional wealth management focuses on a few key moments: your first house, sending your kids to university, when you retire, and when you die. Will you have enough? Will you die with too much or too little? These are questions of a very finite nature. Our approach goes above and beyond, with the belief that wealth is not just money, but comes in at least four forms: time, money, energy, and attention. And that wealth is a wave that you can learn to ride to a life well lived. A life where you flourished, where you surpassed the finite game of having enough, to experiencing the infinite game of playing forever. Instead of just focusing on a few of life's moments, we focus on all of the moments between the 1440 minutes of each day, the energy to be harnessed from each and every sunrise, every meal, and every great night's sleep. The power of connection and meaning that all four forms of wealth, time, energy, money, and attention can access. This is what it means to flourish. So the question is, which wealth advisor is right for you? An advisor who helps you open the door to a few of life's moments or to all of them? Consider this. In the next 24 hours, you have 1,440 minutes, and it takes just a few of them to contact me at grivers at asante.com. Doing so could be one of the best investment decisions you ever make. I did want to dig a little further in that direction because I am detecting it in conversations about the pursuit of all things flourishing with the people that I take care of and the clients that I serve, that it can be a bit of a sticky wicket or a delicate subject sometimes because they did do all the things. They did everything they were told. They checked all the boxes. They did the house, they did the job, they paid off the mortgage, they launched the kids, they retired. And that's an R word now. I call it like the like it's almost like it's a bad word in the sense that they did all the things and they've reached this point where they have everything they've ever wanted, but there's still a little bit of a void, and there's a there's a sense of something that that's that might be missing, but they also aren't necessarily happy to talk about it because it's maybe the the rift is maybe the head is just a little too far behind the body as far as what's expected. So when we look at that particular chapter, maybe people in their late 50s and 60s and beyond, when work falls away and that that piece of the identity is either maybe taking a back seat. I'm not saying it's not part of them anymore, it's always going to be part of them. But what are some clues or strategies for gaining a sense of realigned self at that moment? Maybe, maybe it's because they opted to step away from work, but or in some cases, maybe it's because work was withdrawn from them. What do you have to say about that particular chapter?

SPEAKER_03 25:11

So Chip Conley, you know, one of his books, he's written a number of books. One of them one of them is called, what the first one I read is called The Wisdom at Work, The Making of a Modern Elder. I tend to work with people in the workplace setting and senior leaders at work, but obviously you're talking about some personal things and how they, of course, impact our work and our contribution. And so my response was going to be well, have you ever people really learn and grow in different ways? Some people need to be left alone. Um, some people need to and flourish more in groups, and they come out in groups. So it particularly men, for example, because men and women are different in this area. I am generalizing, but men and women men and women are different in this area. Men are men are like, well, I'm not going to talk about anything important with anybody else. You know, it's like we don't we have to learn to be open, particularly with other men, uh, because there's a competition thing that's inbred with us. Even if you just look at how men stand when two women and again, I'm generalizing, when two women are connecting with each other, they are face to face, they are locked into one another. It's a beautiful thing to behold. When men are connecting with each other, that is rare. When you think about men face to face like this, that's a position of confrontation.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

And we will react physiologically to a man standing. I'll I'll react physiologically to a man standing in front of me. I have to take a few deep breaths and work myself through that. And I've been through a lot of experiences with now, but it's a very comfortable position for me, but not always. Men will stand kind of shoulder to shoulder or kind of, you know, a little bit like that. But but respecting that different people have different needs that way. Some people want to read, some people want to be in an interactive setting, whether it's a church setting or a poetry thing or something in a group where there's a uh there's something being presented and taught. So again, meeting people where they are is super important, but there's loads of books, there's loads of uh uh group, you know, retreats, experiences, things like that. I think it's important. I mean, there's I've been doing this work for a lot of years, you know, combining my experience of law and spiritual psychology and counseling, and to me that's that's my sense of integration. Other people come by it in different ways. I have a vast network and know about all these books and things and people. And so I'm constantly referring people to different workshops and different books and different online learning things because what's going to be best for them?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

That's right. It's very individual, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 27:29

It is very individual, and I suspect, I mean, don't you find that in your work? It's that when you're asking people to reflect on something, you may ask a question to kind of chart them on a course, if you will, but you may not provide the whole course. You may refer them to some other resources that'll help them answer some of these questions for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah, and I think there's there's also something that's really got to be very powerful about what you do, that it takes some getting used to and some learning, which is you can ask somebody a beautiful, powerful, open-ended question, but you really need to learn how to stop and let them think about it and answer it and not get too nervous about, oh, did I push them too hard or oh, did I did I go too deep there? Because if you have made a genuine connection with that person, sometimes it just takes that extra beat for it to be uh reflected upon accurately enough that they can actually respond. So yeah, and do you want to answer more about that?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Well, I feel like you're highlighting the val the value, the importance, the sort of sacredness of that pause because we run so fast that we don't give ourselves that extra pause. So that person who who and by the way, the way you described your work, you said, I take care of my clients, I serve my clients. Those are the words that you use. That suggests that you're going to invite them into a deeper space. Right. You're not just gonna like send them stuff and you know, sign this form and blah, blah, blah. Of course you have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I I mean, I and mindfully, I know sometimes I'm pushing a little far, I'm pushing the envelope a little far, but I've built trust with them over the years so that in the expanding of the playing field, they know they can give me feedback if it was if it was too far. But at the same time, that is why they work with me. They work with me because I'm going to stretch them. They work with me because I'm a coach that's going to add a little bit more weight on the end of the bar to see if we can get a little bit more out of life. So let's talk a little bit about that. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

No, I was just gonna say so you're meeting them where they are, but they're in a deeper, more open place because of their previous work with you and their relationship with you. Correct. So you're meeting them where they are, but you're you're you are far along. I mean, that meeting is gonna be different in the first conversation than if you're working with them for two years of obvious ten years. So true.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

And that's why when I do take on a new client, it feels like we're kind of going back to the beginning in a sense, because we need to relay some of that work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah. Well, you've got to it's we have a professional responsibility to let people know what they're in for.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

This is true.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Right? I'm not interested in yanking somebody into some growth opportunity. You know, it's like I I don't want to do that. I think of this another cartoon of like the person who's just like tied to the tow rope at the back of the speedboat. Yes, you know, and they just you know, just get yanked into this thing. It's like Chris Chris, learning doesn't happen that way. It's not about, you know, it just doesn't. We need but we need to be challenged, but we don't need to be overwhelmed, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

There is such a sweet spot because so one other thing I wanted us to talk about had to do with this idea of of the pause and of being present. And at this particular moment in time, at an increasing rate, it really does feel like attention is incredibly stretched. And that moment where we slow things down and we, you know, close the door and we become quiet in order to solve problems with each other, it sounds a bit like a luxury to some. Do you see that that's turning as as aircraft carriers sometimes do inside corporate culture, where the creation of space and pause and time and and the the revaluing of attention is becoming more and more prioritized?

SPEAKER_03 31:01

I love that expression, the revaluing of attention. That's beautiful. So the short answer is no, not typically. And you create these opportunities where you can. So I'm a very big believer in subcultures within organizations. So I hear very often, well, we don't do that, and we don't operate that way here. And and then I'll ask a question about well, can we do it in this meeting? Or can we do it in this next one-on-one conversation, or can we do it, you know, and the answer to that question is almost always yes. And I'm not trying to like we we have to, in a way, you know, we operate in a certain way because it's our identity. And so when you talk about challenging and healthy stress, in a way, it's a threat to our identity. And a threat to our identity are freak is scary, you know. Again, it's different for men than it is for women, generally speaking, because we're locked into this thing. We have to show up a certain way, and women have that too, of course. It's just different. But how can we just make a small choice so people can experience that, you know what? I can do this, life goes on. In fact, life might even be better. But this is where it's helpful to have somebody from outside the system to ask a probing question that'll ship thinking a little bit, that'll subvert mindsets. Just a small thing. And this is where, you know, we have to come in with our professional experience, meet them where they are. We have enough credibility to get in the door, but we also have enough subversive intent to ask something that's gonna like knock them off their hamster wheel just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

And you know what you're looking for. Like you know what the right level of disruption is. You you you've done this before. You know that you're only adding a tiny bit of weight. You're not really adding, you know, 45 pounds on each end.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Aaron Powell Well, and then of course, in terms of meeting clients where they are, some of them will say, challenge me. And I'll give them a shitload of stuff, and then they'll react to it. And I said, Well, you asked me to challenge you, is this okay? And they'll almost always say, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So it's subtle. This is uh this is a longer conversation, which I do look forward to having with you.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so to wrap up today, I think what I wanted to talk about just to finish, has to do with let's call it like the emotional environment that a leader can create. And if we are coming off of a a regime or a period of history where it was all about efficiency, but maybe we're able to tilt things more towards a stakeholder capitalism where there is uh a more of an attention to innovation and more of an attention to creating teams that can solve problems at scale, that can solve problems in very wisdom-based ways instead of information-based ways. What are some of the people that are doing that well doing?

SPEAKER_03 33:40

They're doing it where they can. They're not trying to boil the ocean. I mean, I think in the world that we live in, we well, let me put it, I could just speak for myself. As an American, living through this incredibly stressful and insane period of time that we're in, we need to act to create societal change. I mean, there's no question about it. It's like there are very, very big institutions that are deeply under threat, right? On a very macro level. And how do I show up differently with my partner? How do I show up differently with my son? How do I show up differently with my team so that I can support them in moving through this stressful time? So we're operating at these very, very different levels. So the short answer to your question, again, easy but not simple, is where are the opportunities to be mindful and operate them the best way at that level, which requires slowing down, paying attention, and really reflecting, considering, okay, of all the kind of arrows in my quiver, what's the one that's going to be helpful? And it could be a question, it could be just doing nothing and sitting and holding space. It could be to be to be, you know, working on a manifesto of some kind at a societal level. So it's yes and when you ask a question like that, because there's so many things that we're trying to solve for right now because they need our attention.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And that tuning into yourself and what you can individually offer, it sounds like is a big part of the answer because it is about being, as you say, very present in your day, but also present with who you are and what it is that you're able to be that is a positive move forward on all those levels. Really, that is how global change can happen, is just that one person at a time. That's brilliant. All right. Closing question. I ask every guest this question in the third season of the Flourish Feed podcast. Um, and it has to do with AI. I'd like to know from your perspective, Andrew, the way in which you use AI or imagine using AI in a really, really powerful way, either for yourself or for the people you serve. What's your vision around what it could do for you or what is it doing for you?

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Well, I was speaking with a friend of mine who is a web developer, and he said he does a lot of work on AI and the way he with AI, and the way he explained it is why shouldn't I have the experience of everybody on the planet providing input into what I'm doing? And I love the way he explained that. And even for someone from me who's a late adapter typically in terms of technology, it helps me understand, you know, people have this experience. So on the one hand, I I am guarded with AI. I don't, I, I AI will not replace human connection. Uh, it will not replace some of the subtleties, but it'll get pretty close. But the answer to your question, because I do try to answer questions, is AI can help me find what I haven't found and see what I haven't seen, but not necessarily make it more important than what my own experience is. So in other words, uh the the question that I like to that I wouldn't might like to ask if AI were a person, is what's out there that I haven't seen with regard to this, this, and this? Yes. Or how are people explaining this, this, and this or talking about this, this, and this? Because if I'm going to be friends where they are, I want to have as many things in my toolkit as possible.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yes. And then use that to solidify your foundation of who you already are when you show up. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yes. How can AI help me understand what's being done out there to draw on the wisdom of people who have worked on problems like this around the world?

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Brilliant. That is an excellent takeaway as well. Thank you so much. What today's conversation reminds me is that the inner game, it doesn't exist in isolation, but it does exist first right here, and it does allow us to show up every day to be part of the bigger solution for a lot of the world's big problems. Andrew Cone, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I hope you have the most amazing day.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

It's a pleasure. The day has started off well. Thank you, Gillian.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Join me next week on the Flourish Feed Podcast to keep exploring the infinite game. In the meantime, remember to stay curious, turn your passions into purpose, and play hard. I'm rooting for you. This program was prepared by Gillian Stovell Rivers, who is a senior wealth advisor with CI Asante Wealth Management. This is not an official program of CI Asante Wealth Management, and the statements and opinions expressed during this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of CI Asante Wealth Management. This show is intended for general information only and may not apply to all listeners or investors. Please obtain professional financial advice or contact Gillian to discuss your particular circumstances prior to acting on the information presented.