Marriage Is A Marathon The Podcast
A podcast that dives deep into the journey of love, faith, and family—a space for authentic conversations about the real struggles, growth, and joys of life.
From navigating relationships to strengthening faith, this podcast is all about being rooted in truth and real with each other, offering insights and encouragement for couples, parents, and anyone seeking to grow in love and life.
Marriage Is A Marathon The Podcast
A Marriage Masterclass with Dr. Grace Koo | Marriage is a Marathon S2 EP. 6
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Dr Grace Koo — identity, trust, and practical psychology for lasting marriage.
📖 Inspired by Marriage Is a Marathon by Anthony Pangilinan & Maricel Laxa Pangilinan
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The most crucial is uh problem in marriage is trust. So many people cheating and uh people are checking each other's uh cell phone. Communication is key, yeah. But many people don't express through words. They are not that good with words or people who are non-verbal. Fix yourself first before coming to a uh relationship. Yeah. If if two very sick people come together, it may contagion.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Anthony Pangilinan.
SPEAKER_02And I'm Barisa Laksa Pangelina.
SPEAKER_00And welcome to Marriage is a Marathon.
SPEAKER_02The podcast season two.
SPEAKER_00In a marathon, you don't run alone, right? You run with a community. So in this season, kasama na nate ng ating ma ka i bigan people who have journeyed with us through the years, decades, pangga. Mang experts then, pag the ting sa ating topic of marriage.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and together we will dive into the challenges, the breakthroughs, the highs, the lows of what is going to make your marriage worth running like a marathon.
SPEAKER_00So join us as we go to season two with you. Marriage is a marathon, running it one step at a time.
SPEAKER_02We are here at the Midnight Dream Studio in one of their sets. This is one set that we are trying out for season two.
SPEAKER_00So 40 seasons, but hey, let's introduce our guests. Go, go, go, go, go.
SPEAKER_02Because the doctor is in.
SPEAKER_00The doctor is in.
SPEAKER_02Okay. One of her many, many graduate diplomas, as in. Lima, and graduate diplomas. So let's not waste any more of your time. Let's welcome Dr. Grace Ku.
SPEAKER_01Hello. Hello. I'm so glad to see you again, Anthony. And again. Again and again.
SPEAKER_02So many years. Thank you so much for journeying with us. Yes. We have been married for 40. Well, this year will be 46.
SPEAKER_0046 with Caleb. Caleb was still very strong when they entered the promised land. Solid Yan. Well ng derechy in si doctor Grace since the doctor is in, guys. Okay, my first question is anaba ang isang bagay, one piece of knowledge that couples don't know when they enter marriage. In your studies, in your observation.
SPEAKER_01I think uh the most crucial is uh problem in marriage is trust. Aye. Trust. Yeah, so many people cheating, yeah, and uh people are checking each other's uh cell phone because they cannot trust their partner. What the drag na Mandiba? Uh if your marriage is such a problem, it's uh it's very uh torturous.
SPEAKER_00How do you establish trust in the beginning? Because in the beginning, palang some people already distrust. They come from a family or background, na walasi lang na ging sandalan. So how do you enter with trust?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, uh studying psychology has its uh benefits because we study Eric Erickson. The most basic developmental uh uh stage that we were in as a child is trust versus mistrust. If a child uh grows up with a mother, a caregiver, who can give uh him or her uh you know the food uh when she cries and so on, the baby starts to have uh trust. So trust in the mistrust.
SPEAKER_02Early on, yeah. What more? Kung Matanda katiwala an banya.
SPEAKER_00No, but so you're saying it starts young.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so somebody should care for this child so much that uh the child can start to see this world as a trusting, trustful place. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's why in Ericsson's theory, I love this theory because so there are eight stages of our life and intimacy uh falls uh on the fifth pie. So if there are eight, dog, eight, so number one is trust uh and then uh autonomy that the child can uh and then initiative and then uh uh industry and then the intimacy comes after you have established a strong in identity. So you have a self-confidence, so you know you can come into this marriage, uh bringing with it uh so much, and you can trust the other person to be himself, respect his uh his self.
SPEAKER_02So if number five young intimacy, and then you're able to establish that with your partner or your spouse, what is number six, seven, and eight?
SPEAKER_01So generativity, yeah. Generativity, then we start to have children, work, and so on. You generate integrity the last integrity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so if you are able to keep a family together for that long of a time, you establish your integrity.
SPEAKER_01You will look back in your life and say, Oh, I lived a good life, integrity, not despair. That's why the despair is the opposite of integrity.
SPEAKER_00They're saying we entered into this marriage. Of course. Is there still hope?
SPEAKER_01Of course. You know, uh look at our grandparents, our own parents. Uh, they didn't go to uh study psychology and they study each other's uh personality. You know, you develop this uh trust inside the house, in inside the home pa the your your origin, yeah. Not in in school. That's so late now.
SPEAKER_02But you have been blessed to study under like a person of Howard Gardner, studying the multiple intelligences in Harvard. So, I think it's a very mashadung malawa kito, pero pag you compartmentalize it in practical ways. Nama i intindihana mga regular people. Can you give us like a glimpse of what it's like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you see Howard Gardner is known for multiple intelligences, and two of them had to do much uh to do with the marriage, uh intrapersonal intelligence, meaning you understand yourself, self-awareness. I'm this type, I have these strengths, I have this weakness, and so on. And the other one is interpersonal intelligences. So people uh use uh EQ, emotional intelligence, uh, which includes both the intra. But the intra sometimes is difficult for children whose identity are so much attached to their parents, or their parents impose their identity to the children, so they don't know themselves. If you know themselves, you'll know whether this marriage is going to work or not, and what you will bring into it, right? And then you start to work with another person, interpersonal intelligence.
SPEAKER_02So intra and interesting.
SPEAKER_01Intersevantaba.
SPEAKER_02So kai lang and talaga.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, communication is key, yeah. But many people don't express through words, they are not uh good with words, or people who are non-verbal. Yeah. So you have of course the languages of love, the touch, the words, the service, and all this. But uh the communication is perhaps not the only uh problem in uh marriage. It's the I can I trust him, yeah, do I have to check on him and so on. So uh the person I would uh introduce uh to the your audience is John Gottman. He talks about four horsemen obstacles or hindrances to a good marriage. Yeah, and it's easy to remember. First is criticism. Oh second is contempt, yeah. He doesn't deserve me. Number number three is uh uh you know you you try to uh number three is stonewalling. You don't want to uh talk with him, uh you just uh dismiss and uh Larry D, yeah, C C S D D is defensive. I think defensiveness is uh most common. When a marriage fails, we blame the other person. I'm I'm uh uh when you when you uh talk with your spouse or your partner, it starts to be uh coming out defensive. You're not just uh you're not there to reprimand him, you're just asking a question, not defensive.
SPEAKER_00They're just listening to you, they're beginning to realize so so what what do they do? Even as they listen to us right now and they realize that's what they're doing. What is the next step? How do they rebuild? How do they again?
SPEAKER_01I it is uh good for us to uh try to go to into ourselves and ask why am I defensive? Why is this topic so sensitive? Yeah, what was wrong with my concepts or distortion of thought? So there is a I I like best the cognitive uh behavior uh therapy, CBT. So you have to change your mind first so you can change your feelings and then change your actions. Your so your distortions uh could be mental distortions, could be the problem in your marriage so that you are becoming so defensive in everything and try to avoid stonewalling uh the other person. So you have to guard our minds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yung perspective na tin siamatao, depend yun sa narrative na your story. Uh uh. About ourselves and about our spouse. Uh-uh. So kai langan bantaya natin yungakwento natin sasarili natin ka se, that will shape now our values, right? The way we exchange our inter and intrapersonal relations with each other.
SPEAKER_00Okay, can I can I can I disturb our audiences?
SPEAKER_01So you've written several books. Yeah, I've written uh 15 books, 15 books, and you have some of them here. Can you show it to us? I'm here, of course. Uh for for the audience, true love this topic, uh, one true love. So hang. Ah, yung uh page uh memorize by the doctor.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yes, yes. No, because I'm gonna ask her about guys, tanong natike doc grace. Anubaang isang healthy. Oh yeah, nah, guys, check yourself against this.
SPEAKER_01Page six, page six down there.
SPEAKER_00I'll read it after you define first what's a healthy marriage.
SPEAKER_01A healthy marriage, uh you come to the marriage healthy na within yourself. You have to be well to go into marriage, and then you build a healthy uh relationship with the other. So like uh a plant, no? A plant needs uh sunlight, uh needs uh the rain and so on, but it should grow, it should not be stuck there. Stagnation is a problem, no? Stagnation because you are fixated only on the first stage of marriage, which is the dream. I know or the nightmare. The dream becomes disillusionment. You you uh male palait marriage.
SPEAKER_00So how do they know if they're healthy? So the is it growing like a plant? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Does it thrive? Are you becoming the better self?
SPEAKER_00After getting married, you start to see I have these uh strengths, but getting to be a better person, like getting productive, am I growing?
SPEAKER_01More forgiving, more am I transforming? Uh-oh. It's like Romans 12, wait, I want to read transformed.
SPEAKER_00I want to read. Sorry, sorry, can you say that again? Romans 12 type one.
SPEAKER_01Romans uh 12, too, the transforming uh transformation of your mind.
SPEAKER_00Sabine Dr. Grace, marriage means oneness in the fullest possible sense. So that intimate physical union is without shame. Only then and only for one. Chuck Swindle says marriage is built on trust, and trust is built on truth. Love truth, and it will protect you. Okay, so one of the sicknesses is na break yung trust. So what do we do, pagnak break nain trust?
SPEAKER_01You know, uh first of all, we have to admit the offender and the offended should admit there's a problem. Both have to come to understand why the trust is broken. And so you said boundaries. You you cannot uh talk with this uh woman all the time and make uh boundaries. You know, boundaries make us safe. Just imagine going up the uh the top uh floor, the buying penthouse. If there's no fence, you are afraid. Yes. But if there's a fence, you you can move about uh you know, feeling confident, feeling happy and safe. I think love protects love trusts. So it it has to protect your you have to give all your effort to protect the love that you have built.
SPEAKER_02Loss of trust na nang yare. Tapo sasabihi ngasawa. Nagbalikan ka me kasi, I forgave him na. I forgave her na. It's not enough that you forgive the person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, uh forgiveness is overused, abused. Yeah. A very forgiving, I think it's it was your friend Tina who invited me to talk about forgiveness. Uh-huh. And I said uh forgiveness is not to be dispensed all the time now without repentance from the other party. So forgiveness is over uh emphasized without the repentance. You can forgive, but uh because our mind still works, eh? It will not forget.
SPEAKER_02That's why boundaries are important. So admit moon kamale. Next is repent.
SPEAKER_00Repent, turn around.
SPEAKER_02Turn around. Then mag kasundo, ng mga bagong ways of uh relating.
SPEAKER_01So we set the boundaries. Uh you know, uh my husband can check my uh uh cell phone anytime. I can check his cell phone anytime, but I don't check. You know why? Because uh you trust uh he's not going to make a hunky punky.
SPEAKER_00Anu papo, anukapo ang ilang manga sake, mag kasama since the doctor is in, guys. Tanunan doctor is other illnesses inherited.
SPEAKER_01Uh you know about uh narcissistic personality disorder.
SPEAKER_00Narcissism is it's all about me. Selfish, self-centered.
SPEAKER_01I'm so grand, I'm so great, you know. Uh very arrogant. Very, you know, that's why the Romans 12 also said, do not look at yourself too highly. Oh I'm so beautiful, you know.
SPEAKER_00Uh social media. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Self-promote and all this, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's another one. That's another one.
SPEAKER_02How the other person is feeling. Yeah. And then that becomes a problem.
SPEAKER_01So if you have already certain personality disorders and you come to a marriage, does the part the other party know and uh want to help you in that? You know, uh some women like to be martyrs or some want to be messiah. It's either messiah complex or martyr complex. You cannot handle. So don't I can fix you.
SPEAKER_00No, I can make a fix you.
SPEAKER_02Cold play, you know, I can fix you. But it's a bih. I will be messiah.
SPEAKER_00Mother, mother is more illnesses. So trust, loss of trust. Are you narcissism? One more, one more. What do you see?
SPEAKER_01And you want to go into this marriage thinking that it will fix you. No. Fix yourself first before coming to a uh relationship. Yeah. If if two sick, very sick people come together, make contagion. But they're not. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, Doc, you have written other books as well, aside from One True Love, and then what is this?
SPEAKER_01Uh, this book uh is uh Seasons of Life, uh Seasons of Love. I like to uh talk about this because we go through the season, the springtime of our love, and that and then the summer. Wow, we start to be productive with children and so on. But we also go to the autumn when you uh uh you start to uh calm down, be more serene as we prepare for the winter of our lives, so uh I I'm so I'm usually so uh inspired by old couples, uh they're still holding hands, uh, and uh both of them.
SPEAKER_00Excellent choice because holding hands from behind, and they're holding into each other.
SPEAKER_01That's the true love.
SPEAKER_00So you're gonna put an attendance when it comes to finishing strong.
SPEAKER_02Since we're talking about marriage is a marathon.
SPEAKER_00So could you give us some tips from your book and from your experience, how to end the race well?
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh uh, you know, uh, I have fought the fight, you but uh you know, uh, I see people um I I love films that uh talk about old couples. Yeah, it's not just a wedding planning and all this, it it's how it ends, no. And uh I could see my parents uh in their very old age, they were both uh sitting on uh I remember in Bagio, no, uh on the uh what do you call this uh swing? Uh-huh. And both of them were I was looking from behind, and and when my father started to swing, my mother starts to swing. Oh, so they got uh married until my father passed in. What would they what would they what do they teach you? So my mother uh was like a nurse to my father. Like a nurse, you know? So uh but uh starting to have dementia and so on, you start to be at more accepting of the flaws, the faults, and all this. This is love story. This is a love is patient, love is kind. Not the not the fiery, fury kind of uh love, but the quiet. I remember uh talking with uh a counselor and said it's like the deepening, no? So we talk about the dream, disillusionment, discovery, the autumn. Start to discover something good about your spouse, and then the deepening, the depth.
SPEAKER_00I like that, I like that discovery. Uh-uh. The first is uh dream.
SPEAKER_01Dream uh disillusionment and then and then uh discovery. Oh my husband has this no palan, no, this uh great strength that I did not know in my 20s. We got married, married at 23, and it was uh in the 50s. Oh he's so intelligent on these things that I didn't know. And then the last one is depth, yeah, depth, deepening. It's like the steaming now of the food. It's not frying, I want to go deep with this steaming. Steaming.
SPEAKER_02Steaming. Divers do it deeper. Yeah, yeah. No, cause in a marathon, there is what you call a wall on the 30th kilometer. So a wall you can either give up or it gives you the second wind to finish for the 42nd kilometer. So the deepening looks like the wall. You can go deep or you can drown.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you quit na. Yes. What do you do in that uh wall stage? Well, you have to cry out to the Lord.
SPEAKER_02You become a kid again, and then you say, Hey Lord, icon ba la sa. And this is I feel relaxed, Yiba. Yes. When I give up, because I'm not anymore.
SPEAKER_00I carry her.
SPEAKER_02We can never run together because he's faster than me. I take my time. But what I'm what I do is I cry out to the Lord, and then you know, I also remember the people who are rooting for us. Ah, right. The support, no? Yes, the support. And then I replenish with my nutrition. So these are the same concepts that we need throughout our marriage. Do you take some food or I take some food, I drink something, I maybe slow down, get some air. But these are the things that we need in order to finish strong. That for me is very important. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So maybe you can give us a message for those watching the role of the Lord in your marriage and how he can really help you finish well. Not just strong, finish well.
SPEAKER_02But but before she says that, I want her to show her other book, which is about the Rubashang 2 books.
SPEAKER_01So this one is my newest last year. Last year, Aging with Grace and Courage. So even in marriage, we have to get grace. Aging with grace. Do you know what grace is? Gratitude. It comes from the same root word. Gratitude. You you now uh go so go through life and with uh gratitude every day. They're about uh doing uh three things to be grateful, but uh the gratitude will change your perception of things. Uh uh.
SPEAKER_02If you are thankful in the small things, then you will be given even greater things to be thankful for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, certainly.
SPEAKER_02And there's another book there that you haven't shown us. The seasons of life and the seasons of love.
SPEAKER_01We go through seasons of love then. It's not the same as the 20s or the the teens and so on. But there's a problem, no, with uh AI, I I should say, that is a that is a uh uh it could be a blessing, it could be a curse for marriages. These days people are having relationships with AI more than their spouse can imagine, substituting not only your work but your relationship now as well. I I have friends whose boyfriend is an AI.
SPEAKER_00Who manipulating that they could not hear any kind words from their husbands that they get it from uh so but even that is meaningless, right? In the end. Of course.
SPEAKER_01We want a three-dimensional uh person who has all the flaws as well as the strengths and so on. Talking about statistics, now you were asking, you know, the in the states, about uh 45% to 50% and uh of marriages uh end in divorce. But two in Korea, in South Korea, that high. The only place that is uh low uh is of course the Philippines because we don't know divorce at all. Uh an album is so expensive, is uh Singapore. Singapore is uh maybe 10%, but uh Taiwan is about 35%, and uh South Korea, considering that they produce the best uh K drama and all this.
SPEAKER_00Do you know that 50% of marriages end up in divorce?
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That really scares me. Why? Why? What does it scare me? Because it's possible that I will be with this person forever. There's a 50% chance I'm gonna be with her forever. That's an adult.
SPEAKER_01Because if you don't want a cure that is just 50% uh effective, if the doctor says, oh, if you go through this procedure 50% lang parang, uh, you don't want to take the risk. Uh-huh. That's why people these days don't want to get married. Nah. They don't want even to take the risk. Well, that's let's know.
SPEAKER_00Let's let's end with a no, with a good why we need the Lord. So, how do we how do we make sure that uh we're part of the 50% who will make it?
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. By all by God's grace. Yeah. You know, grace, gratitude. You know, grace is your undeserved favor. You know, with all the marriages, I was uh I I told a story in in one of the books in Harvard, and we we were uh uh separated by groups by age group, and in my age group, there was no one happy marriage. Wow. Yeah, I think uh there were seven of us uh divorced, uh separated, and all this, uh going there, and I was the last one to share, no? And I felt oh, I don't want to feel I'm I became the odd person out. Uh-oh. But uh I I told about the testimony. I'm so grateful that I was born in the Christian family, looking at my parents uh who had uh really uh great marriages, and we are nine children, all of us uh happily married and so on. They were models to me because I'm the seventh child now. So you study, you observe. So it doesn't need uh a career or a degree in psychology. You watch, you observe your uh uh the people in the church, and church is such a support group that we sometimes uh fail to notice. No, we think we just go there, uh take our communion. But the community of the church has this very good function of supporting each other. Uh if your marriage is uh falling apart, uh the people around you uh will notice and they will come and help. And if they are older than you, had more experience, they they will uh come to help you, no. So, you know, uh don't trust in your under own understanding, as Proverbs says, no. But I think in the Bible, uh I love uh to read the Bible. Bible reading is my therapy. Just reading the Psalms is already more than going to a uh a psychiatrist or what. You see how David went through all the difficulties in life, uh Solomon had uh adultery and so on, and saved by grace. I think that grace is given to those who really want to seek help from the Lord. And uh uh made based on my own understanding, arrogance, uh you know, uh being uh very proud. Pride, pride is the opposite of receiving grace.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01So we yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, this is off the script, but I just want to say that I'm sure you have been showered so well and taken care of by your husband Caleb. Oh, sure. So maybe I'd like to give this opportunity for you to say something to him.
SPEAKER_01Hello, just when he hid now, I know he drove you to come here. Oh yeah. You know, I I wrote about him in our 20th anniversary and then the 25th anniversary. And uh I I think I will uh write uh a letter, a long letter again when we reach our 50th. You know, it's uh he's so uh, you know, uh and the symbol uh I I I shared in uh my writings in the Philippine Daily Inquires, the umbrella.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Umbrella. So they actually put our faces under an umbrella because he's always trying to protect me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Everywhere he goes, he we he brought uh he brings an umbrella just to make sure that uh the rain does not. That's so sweet. So uh so my uh close friends know, and they uh during our uh anniversary, our wedding anniversary, they would uh send an umbrella.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's so sweet, right? And I always see you blooming, and I know this is also a great part because of him.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, thank you. I cannot share about marriage if I have not been in a good, uh, you know, wonderful marriage. Wow, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Just be grateful. Um, read the word and then open yourself to God's grace, right? To God's grace every day of your life, yeah. And live in community, which is what we've done with you, connected. Thank you for being part of our community, Doc Grace. Oh, wow, thank you.
SPEAKER_01We've come a long way, huh? Yes, we have had this uh parenting conference and uh nipata position.
SPEAKER_00We still have we still have uh a number of miles to run together.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, thank you, Doc. You're under 36? 30, we're 32 years.
SPEAKER_0032 years married.
SPEAKER_01Praying for 60th.
SPEAKER_00Yes, oh my gosh, and more, more, more.
SPEAKER_02Season two.
SPEAKER_00Don't forget to follow us in the bill.