Navigating Grief & Finding Grace with Brett Sams (Ep 13)

What does grace look like when life goes terribly wrong?

In this episode of The Grace Podcast, Michael sits down with Brett Sams for a real conversation about grief, guilt, faith, and learning how to be gentler with yourself.

As a teenager, Brett went through a tragic accident that took the life of his younger brother. For a long time, he blamed himself and carried thoughts that many people wrestle with after trauma: what if I had done something differently? Could I have stopped it?

Brett shares how one conversation with a youth pastor helped him start seeing things more clearly and slowly let go of the blame he had been carrying.

This episode also moves into the bigger questions that grief can bring up. Why do awful things happen to good people? What happens to faith after loss? And how do you show yourself grace when you are trying to keep living after something devastating?

Brett now spends his working life helping other people look after themselves, shaped in many ways by the grace people showed him during the hardest season of his life.

This is an honest, emotional conversation about grief, faith, and what it can look like to keep going after deep loss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Grace podcast. Uh, what the heck is grace? Let's find out. This is my good friend Brett Sands. Brett, why did you say yes when I said, can you come and tell your heart-wrenching and real and honest story?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Because that is, that's it. It is heart-wrenching and real. And the people that, you know, showed grace to me through what I went through as a teenager, I figured the only way I can say thanks is to pay it forward.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Let's do that. Let's do that. So Brett is excited about helping people take care of themselves. And he does that for a job. And part of it is because life was a bit tricky for you when you're a teenager. Uh what was the we're just going to dive straight into it. By the way, if you're someone who doesn't want to talk about really hard issues, like say the death of a family member, skip to another podcast episode. No harm done. Okay. So, Brett, what was really tough for you as you were growing up? There was an event that just didn't go to plan. And what was what's the story?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

So that event was going to school. My little brother and I were walking to the school bus to the bus stop. We grew up in you know, Lismore, regional, New South Wales, and grew up on the main highway. We knew how to cross the road from the age of two because it was the major highway. And we're walking to school. I was what was I 15, no, 13, roughly at the time. We've come to a major road at a roundabout, and the bus interchange was where we were heading, which was straight through the roundabout. And there's a bus coming from behind us that was empty, which is good. And we come to the main road, and my brother was probably 10 feet in front of me. And we thought going to the interchange. I'm assuming what he thought was once the bus goes, that's going to stop the flow of traffic. It's going to be safe for me to cross the road. But because I was 10 feet behind him, I could see the indicator of the bus. And then as he crossed, as he stepped off the gutter onto the road, the bus turned and went over him. Man.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Far out. And how old was he? And how old were you?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I was about 13. He would have been about 11.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Which is about as tough as any guy can face at that age. And I'm very sorry to hear that. And so what does a young guy do with in his own thoughts after experiencing something like that?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Well, for me, it was I blamed myself. Because, like I said, I was there. I could see the indicator of the bus. I was, you know, 10 feet from him. So in my mind, I thought I could have done something, I could have stopped it from happening. I could have, you know, pulled him back. I could have done something to stop the accident from happening. So I blamed myself. Like immensely blamed myself to the point of there was no intent behind it, but there was suicidal thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

And that would be understandable, you know, because a kid that age, what's he gonna do? He's gonna he's gonna do, gonna blame himself because we always take responsibility. You're a guy who takes responsibility in life, but I guess you were just at that moment taking responsibility for things outside your control.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

But also, too, I think as a kid where, you know, say for example, your parents spit up, the kid goes to the automatic, blame myself, it's my fault. I I've done something wrong. But it's got nothing to do with what you did, it's just outside of your control. It's the same thing, is it it was outside of my control, but I still blank myself for it.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and you're in a tough dark spot for quite some time. And then there was uh, long story short, you went on a camp. Okay, because at this point, like you went on a camp. It was a faith camp. Did you have a faith of your own at that point or did you not?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, so I grew up in the Adventist church, uh, went to the Adventist school, um, and always had been part of the church and part of the school. Um, and then yeah, it was a school camp. I I can't remember if it was just a weekend or whatever, but there was a youth pastor who went to that school camp. He was the fiance of a first-year teacher. I feel sorry for her because I also first student. But his whole plan was to spend the week the whole time with me. Um, and this is probably September, and my brother died in July. I said, you know, a few months after. I'd had those thoughts pretty much for the entire time. And it was only in spending time with him over that weekend, and he and he I said to him, Look, this is the thoughts I'm having. This is why, this is what I could have done. And it was only when he said, Show me what you would have done. Show me how you could have done something that altered the outcome. And it was only then that he's gone, but if you had have done what you thought you could have, it would have propelled you forward, it would have been you hit by the bus. So it's really it's like no matter what I did, didn't really change the outcome. Oh, and it's just taking that time with him to go, this is what I would have done, this is what I had planned. And then he said to me, But that wouldn't have changed the outcome, and he's why. It's like showing logic in that time of not having logical thoughts in my head, essentially. And then from that moment, then it was like those thoughts have gone. But if there's no change in the outcome, then what I would have done wouldn't have mattered. And then I stopped blaming myself. I you know, I stopped having those thoughts of suicide. I stopped blaming myself for something I, you know, coulda, shoulda, would have done, but didn't. Um yeah, so I did I just it had to be shown that no matter what I thought I could have done, there was no difference to the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Okay. So basically he applied a bit of reality into a 13-year-old's thinking. He's like, well, here's what you're thinking, and here's the factors that are simultaneously true that you haven't been engaging with. Yeah. And so after that, camp, what was it like for you? You didn't have your brother back, but you weren't stuck in thoughts of somehow you should have done something different. Like, what was it like for you afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Honestly, I can't remember. Yeah, you get this whole trauma event, and yeah, you patch together parts of it, but there's a big chunk of it missing. So I I honestly don't remember. I was it's been blocked out. But what I do remember is every time I saw this this guy at church, it was always how you're doing. It's like a regular check-in. And as I said, he was the fiance of the English teacher for the school. So he was the hanging around the school all the time. Um, so it was, you know, regular check-ins throughout the week. You know, pull me out of class for a five-minute chat to just see how you're doing. I was the first kid in school to have a mobile phone because I had, you know, school counselors, church pastors, I had an old kindy teacher who became a social worker. At the time, her and her husband were living in Western Australia, and she called me up in Lismore just to check on me and have a chat. So I had to have a phone with me so that if I needed it, I could call someone. Um, so you know, having these people around me who were also of the same faith, but also could see things outside of the faith, like the social workers, not really a religious type profession. So having, I guess, real world like outside perspective had that benefit as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah. And how did you how did you find out or come to the conclusion that that youth pastor had specifically gone that camp with the goal of making sure that he built a relationship with you, that he got to have some a bit of a chat with you? What how did how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Again, I don't know. Uh he was only a few years older than me. I think he's like five years older than me. So he would have been, you know, early 18, 19, thereabouts. So it may have been the fact that we were close together in age, but also too, like the whole school had 120 kids from Kindly Year 10. So really small school. So you knew everyone. There's there's a photo of me in year 10. I was the tallest in the school, and I'm there leaning on the head of one of the kinder kids who was the shortest in the school. The last I knew that's still being used to advertise the school. But you know, you knew everyone, it was this close-knit environment. So to have someone who, you know, whether it was a conversation the school had had or not, I don't know. But to have someone who was around my age and go, hang on, I'm just gonna spend some time with you because I feel like it's needed, obviously had a massive impact on my life.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Wow. That's that is such so so why would you and I view that as someone absolutely applying grace to your circumstance? Someone going out of their way to give you something that of a zero benefit to them. Like, why do you and I view that as so significant? Why do you and I view that as grace?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Well, for me it's grace because, as you said, he he gave something of himself without the expectation of anything in person. So to me, grace is unconditional. It's you don't have to earn it, but I'll give it to you. And if you're in a position to, you know, pay it forward or pay it back, then you'll do that if that's right for you. And for me, that's why I paid it forward. But also to the funny, weird thing is that my brother has the same birthday as this year's pastor.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

You're kidding.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Like exactly the same date, a couple of years later. So what you know, there's that connection there. And I message him every year on his birthday and say, Hey, thanks for taking that time with me.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I think that's remarkable. Like, what are the odds of that? About one in every 365 people. Yeah. But again, it was what you needed at the time. Yeah. That that little connection, just going, hey, someone's looking out for you. And then, so that's a remarkable thing that he did that for you, and that it obviously had such an impact. How did you go with applying grace to yourself? Because up until that point, you would have said that you'd been applying condemnation to yourself. I'm such a bad person, I did wrong, you know? Yeah. And then, well, once you've realized that wasn't warranted, and it clearly wasn't, and once someone had helped you walk through that, well, how did you go about applying grace to yourself?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I think it was more around changing my thoughts, being kinder to myself in that knowing that I couldn't have changed the outcome, then those thoughts were like, What was no point having them? Because, you know, we've worked through that. So then not having those thoughts, being kinder to myself. Um, and then just being mindful too of what I went through then and how like the work that I'm doing now, does that is that too close to that situation? So just being mindful of that boundary and saying, hang on, I need to refer on to someone else when needed because that's too close to my experience, and I don't want to re-traumatize myself on that.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, that makes sense. I get that. And so when so before that youth bastard was chatting with you, your thoughts were I've done wrong, I've done bad, self-condemnation, I'm not good enough, I've let the team down. After that conversation, it's it's thoughts of what? It's nothing I could have done to change the outcome. What are the other thoughts afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I guess initially part of it was blaming the bus driver.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

You know, he major part, major role. But then also, too, it was hang on, it was just a frick accident. There was really nothing that could have been done. He indicated he, you know, did everything he should have done. But then thinking back, like I remember thinking at the time that you know could we blame could could I mean myself, could I blame him? But you know, then that's not allowing me to heal properly as well, because it's like blaming someone else for something that you went through. Yes, they've played a role, but they did what they should have done. And you know, the same thing, it you can't blame yourself, you can't blame others for just a freak accident. Uh sometimes it can be easier to do that and pass that blame onto someone else. And that can be a way to process it, but in the end, you're not really processing it, you're just offloading short term. And if you don't process it, it's going to come back and kick in the backside. And like the bus driver that day went and handed his license in. He never drove a bus again. So then, you know, it's not just impacting on our family, but him and his family as well. There was students from the Catholic school, it was just down the road where the bus interchange was. They were in a car driving to the school. And they've pulled over and, you know, pulled me away from my brother and sat sat with me and spoke with me. But then speaking with the assistant principal years later, he said, but there was no students there. Where did these two girls come from that were dressed in school uniform? But there's no memory of them being there by the teacher.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

What are you suggesting? Maybe they're angels or something or what seems like it, doesn't it? Well, how the hell do you get girls there who weren't there? That makes no sense.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

No. And though if they were dressed in the school uniform for the Catholic school, I remember the teacher being there, but he doesn't remember the students being there.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Wow. Well, you wouldn't be surprised if you have a worldview where there is a God who loves people and who said angels are ministering spirits sent to serve those on their journey, right? Yeah. You wouldn't find that out very surprising at all, really, would you? No. What did those um what did those girls from the Catholic school or from wherever they were do that supported you at that time?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

They were talking to me about what happened, who it was, one of them, because there was a shopping center across the road. One of them ran across the road and got me a drink. I think by the end of it, I ended up with about five drinks on the floor around me. And I maybe had one mouthful out of all of them total. Um, because that you know, the shock and trauma, you don't feel like drinking, but you know, people will bring you something as a way to try and distract you or to, you know, maybe it might be make them feel like they've contributed to the situation. But yeah, they were just talking to me about you know who I was where I went to school. They recognized the shirt I was in. But yeah, just to realize a couple of years later that the teacher who was there, I remember him. He like he he came and spoke to me as well. But he doesn't remember the these two, would have been maybe year 11, year 12 girls. He doesn't remember them at all.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

That's that's remarkable. So okay, either that was uh absolutely there because you needed it, or who knows? But that that is remarkable. And then what did that do for your faith at the time? Like at the time, you've just l had grief, you've just had like the questions raised of why is life not going to plan. You didn't realise that these were potentially who knows, maybe angels, whatever. Like you didn't all you knew was your own pain. What did this do for your faith at the time?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Part of it was strengthened it, but another part of it was why. Um mother or brother was the type of person who even though he was young, he was, you know, every from the age of five, if he saw someone crossing the road who needed help, he would cross the road to help them cross the road. He would go out of his way to help other people. So then, you know, if that's the type of person he was, why did this happen to him? Um and part of it was I I blame God for it.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

But then I guess part of it is still blaming God a little bit because I've left the church. Um and I so that was in 2000. Um mum didn't really push me to go to church. I'd rock up if I wanted to. I was probably there for half an hour a week. Um but then I, you know what, I think I need to take some time for myself and work out where I sit, where God sits in this and haven't really gone back.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah. See, in that time of assessing, because it would be normal to to be really angry at God. In fact, it would be pretty quirky to not be. Yeah. So if you're happy to explore that for a moment, because you're not the only one in the world who feels frustrated or annoyed or let down by God. Like, if we pull that, zoom out for a sec, you've got these two things playing out, okay? And guys watching this, Brett and I know each other well. That's why we're gonna have this chat, all right? Yeah, so on one hand, you've got completely unfair, not okay situation that happened that would indicate that God is absent or unable to help or doesn't care, right? Yep. On the other hand, you've got Jesus giving a character reference to the devil in John 10 saying the devil is a liar, he's the father of liars, and when he lies, he speaks his native language. So when we're experiencing that anger, it could be because God is unfair and he doesn't care, or it could be that our perception is off. And that's why this time of assessing is so valuable. Like, what would be the sort of things that you think someone who's in this a similar spot to you of assessing, hey, wait up, where do I actually sit with God? What are the thoughts that go through your head that they could benefit from, or what are the factors that you look at? Because a lot of once you start this assessing thing, a lot of people feel a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and a lot of failure. And again, it's all just the enemy's playground. Like, what are the things that they they could be thinking through at that time of you know assessing?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Sometimes it can be hard to sit with those thoughts. Um you know, part of it is like a reflective thing that we're not taught how to do. So for a lot of people, it's uncomfortable to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Um because it whatever questions you're asking yourself in this assessment time are the same questions others would be asking themselves. So are they questions around is there purpose in serving God? Are there questions around what's his nature? Is he actually on our side? Like, what sort of questions do people raise? Because some people listen to these are actually so sheltered, they've never even thought this stuff through. Whereas I've walked in that in similar shoes. These question times, you're in in that spot. Like, what are the questions people should be asking or are asking, and how do you work that through? Like, because no one wants to sit in an assessment time forever, they want to actually come to conclusions.

unknown 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Like what are the the wise questions to ask ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Well, one question would be you know, questioning, is there God? Is there a God? Um and for me, part of that came back to you know, the the day he died. Um so Dennis died on a Friday morning, which in the Adventist church, you know, sunset Friday, you'd turn the TV off, you'd, you know. But we um the whole church got around us, and they were over at our place that afternoon. They brought meals. They, you know, I remember there was one family who were doing the dishes in the kitchen, and we had a small TV in the kitchen, and we videotaped the um Channel 9 news that night because it was the second story of the the night. So we recorded that on video within maybe five minutes of the story ending. The power went out. There's a massive clap of thunder, the clap of lightning, and the power went out. But where we grew up was between the two hospitals. There's only one night that I remember of us ever losing power, and it's the Naughty Dight. It's almost like and like the whole town lost power. It was to me, it was like thinking about it, it was almost like God was angry at what happened. Although, you know, he you know, we've got to go through these trials and tribulations ourselves. But it's like God was angry at the result and this massive storm came and he showed how angry he was because we lost power and a massive flash of lightning. And sometimes it can be the big displays like that that are you know, we recognize and we remember them. But when we're in those trials, it can be the small things that we miss. And then it, you know, thinking about you know, you're talking to your kids and they start asking you a question and you don't hear them, and they get louder and louder and louder until you hear them. It's the same sort of thing with God. You you miss the small things, and then he goes, Hang on, I need to show you something. You're not gonna miss this. And whether that's you know, a flash of lighting that loses power to the whole town, or whether that's something significant where you you're forced to sit down and go, hang on, let's look at what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Very significant. You've never lost power, or maybe once. The day that you lose your brother, it's like you can interpret that how you want. God is upset with the outcome, whatever, but clearly you're not the only one experiencing that something freaking enormous just happened, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah. What other what other questions would are helpful for someone to be asking themselves when they're in that spot of analyzing? I even want this. Is God really a god of his word or is he a fake? You know, because that's the bottom line of it. If I can't depend on God to keep my brother alive, freaking heck. Like, what's the use? Like, what other questions would someone be asking?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Why? Why mean? Yeah, I I think why is a big one. And you know, we we don't always understand why God made a decision. More often than not, we'd never understand why. Yeah. But it's when we good interfection, the reflections, whether it's at the time or you know, 25 years later, it's you know, that these incidents or you know, these things that occur have a massive shift in the direction of our lives. And you know, for me, I grew up wanting to be a chef, um, wanting to be a professional basketballer, and then had a tryout with the West City Razorbacks back in 2002, 2003, which was kind of around two years before their last season. Yeah, but then okay, I I didn't get that. Let's look at something else I could do. I like helping people and yeah, going back to that pay it forward, it was going from around the basketball and being focused on me to now being focusing on other people and helping them through their situation.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, that makes sense. Man, okay, so what you're saying is you've taken something really hard and bad, something and something you're still working through, you haven't really m decided where you land on stuff. You just decided like things are either being assessed at the moment or you're deciding sort of like things aren't looking good. And then you're like, okay, so how can I use this? So it's driven you into a job where you get to do a lot like that, youth leader, youth past, didn't you? And where you get to help others, so you can see how something hard's driven you that way. All right, so this is Isaiah 57. Okay, so at the very start of Isaiah, there's a spot where people are questioning is God actually on our side or is he not? Does he actually care? Okay, and I'll read that out for me so I'm not boring people with my voice that they're always hearing.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Isaiah, the righteous perish and no one takes it to heart. The devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared of evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace, they find rest as they lie in death.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, because I lost him, and I remember that verse helped me so much. I didn't even know it was there. Because it was like, why is he gone? And then that's the same question someone else has asked 2700 years ago, and it's like, oh, the righteous are gone, it doesn't seem further righteous are gone. But for me, when I was in a similar spot, that verse was like, Well, this guy no longer has to experience life the hard way, like the rest does, yeah, you know, which is like no more or less true, I guess, from a secular viewpoint, as whatever other meaning we add to it. What when we're struggling, another thing is I've been in the spot before I've struggled, wondering, does God actually care about outcomes down here? When I've seen really serious levels of injustice and stuff like that, I'm like, but what the heck? You know, or or it's like in Bruce Almighty how how he goes, Hey God, the only one not doing their job around here is you, you know, which feels good to him at the time to say that, but obviously, you know, if it's true, the devil's little liar, the father of all lies, when he lies, he speaks his name language, it just means he's he hasn't assessed it through that lens lens. But it's like these hard questions what we need, because if we don't ask the hard questions, we end up with a shallow childish faith, which is almost worse than like which won't stand the test of time. You know? Where did you end up landing, or at least for now, in terms of because it's not about the the Seventh day Advanced Church, it's about is there a God who loves me? Clearly the church did their job. Okay, they got around you guys, they looked after you. That's not really relevant though. What's relevant is did God do his job? Or are we gonna or or is it even knowable whether or not God did his job? You know, a couple of angels and a thunderstorm, but did God do his job? Like, what is the question that you're asking God that you would love for him to answer for you? Like, he's not going to, because we we we know that from the book of Job. Job's like, what the hell? And God doesn't even answer his question the whole way through the book. But what what is it, what is it you're searching for?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

I think knowing what my brother was like in helping people. Yeah. He he was always helping other people. And you think, you know for me, he was a good kid. I've you know, someone who was helping, he was kind of like that putting it putting others before himself, like unselfish and you know, doing all these things that we hope to grow up to be as an adult, but he was a you know, nine, ten, eleven-year-old kid that was doing it. So why him?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah. Yeah. And if there is a God who does love you in heaven, you'll get that answer.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

The weird thing is that right now, let's assume for one minute the worldview that your brother had, that life goes on with with God eternally, right? Yep. That's a question your brother's already had answered, and he's at peace with it. But you and I are stuck down here without the answer, and we're not at peace with it. Yeah. You know, and the thing is, what what do we do with this? It's like your kids are at an age where they're gonna determine whether they have a faith or not, you know what I mean? Like, and you're at an age where probably the next five years you'll probably set your path for your faith, because turn people tend to make set their path between, you know, when they're 15 and about five years from now. What are you hoping you'll end up choosing? Because this is not really about you, Brad. It's about everyone who's watching this or listening to it, who they see themselves in you, and I've been in that spot myself where I'm just like, maybe God's not good. Maybe he's not, you know, or maybe he's good but useless at life. You know what I mean? Like we all have those thoughts. I might not think that now, but we've all been there. It's like, what do you hope is the outcome you land on eventually with all this stuff?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I think part of it is putting my kids in a situation where they can make the decision for themselves. No, I grew up in the Adventist church, but and and left the church. But now my girls go to the the Adventist school. So it's and I'm not forcing them to do that, like you know, kind of in a little bit, but not pushing religion on them, it's them coming to that decision themselves. We know whether they want to go to church, I take from church when I can. Um is it that they want to try a different religion, a different church? Well, you know, it's providing the opportunities for them to do that, and that's that the growth that they go through as kids, but also to maybe it's a different religion for me. And without providing those opportunities to my kids, I may not go and explore that.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And then what do you hope is the outcome for you? Because I'm I'm sort of imagining like a 55-year-old Brett looking back at how old are you? 35? I don't know, 40? 40. Okay, sorry, I'm getting old. Uh everyone looks 35. Okay, I'm imagining a 55-year-old Brett looking back at a 40-year-old Brett. I'm imagining him saying, Brett, yeah, you had to go through those hard seasons because you had to work stuff out. I'm so glad you came to land on bam, XYZ conclusion, because it was what you needed. What do you think will be the conclusion you end up landing on in terms of whether or not you want to use your life just to go back to the faith you had, or to just, I guess, the the other trajectory is just to keep living life for you, you know what I mean? Like, what do you hope is what you land on and and why is that?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

I think it's more around the direction, and yeah, if I come to that conclusion that there is a God who is there, then it's I've made that decision for myself. Where because you know, I grew up in the church from the moment I was born. So it's like almost forced on me where you know I went through these times, I've I've now left the church. Is there a point where I come to a conclusion myself and that's my choice?

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, because that'd be a lot of maturity. That'll be yeah, because then it it was your choice. Yeah, that that makes heaps of sense. Uh, and and to be honest, it's like you and I know that if there is a God who loves you, and if you decide to reconnect with him, there will be peace in that.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

But between here and that point, it sort of feels a bit like you're in the wilderness. Like it's not, it's not joyful to not know. But you still I you've you've made so many good decisions, you've led your life to to help others and stuff like that, and you're looking after your kids well. But like, I think maybe we have to have a bit of grace for ourselves when we are in the wilderness and go, I don't know, like, you know, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I think with without having grace for ourselves, it's gonna make that wilderness journey a whole lot tougher. So whether it's you know being kind to yourself because you did go through something that you know was traumatizing. And instead of blaming yourself for how you reacted to that, it's like, yes, that's my journey, and that's something that I'm working through, and just taking your time and being gentle with yourself and rather than rushing through it and coming to a conclusion, and then in five years' time you go, hang on with that the right decision. Where if you just take your time and work through it, process it, and ask yourselves those questions of you know, why why, what, what's the outcome that I wanted to have happened? Is there a you know, it might take another five years, but it's is that a potentially a better outcome for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, a well-reasoned outcome. Like instead of just, oh, I feel that unsafe, I'll just go back to what I knew. You know, like well, you know, wow. Well, I I I could be a bit biased, Brett, but I think this is my favorite podcast we've ever done. Okay, thank you very much. The reason why this is so important to me is because I probably spent uh at least a year, this is going back a couple of like at least a decade, where I was asking, I couldn't understand why a good loving God would allow unfair things to happen to people he was supposed to be looking after. Yeah. And and for me, like I had to come to the conclusion. Well, the conclusion I came to after that slightly wildernessy thing is that his justice is long term. My idea of justice is like this week, or this year at least, or at least in this freaking lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Um, the idea that your brother, like in that verse, you know, the righteous perish. Well, that's your brother, and no one takes it to heart. The devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. It's like when I lost that mate, I had to tell myself, well, what if this verse is actually true for him? What if there was some really tough stuff coming up that he would have been better off not having to deal with? Yeah. You know, and those who walk uprightly enter into peace, they find rest as they lie in death. I'm not suggesting that you know, your brother that I know if your brother was gonna have a really tough time down the track. But it's like my wrestling led me to that conclusion with him. Your wrestling will lead you to whatever. But Brett, I just got a feeling that a lot of people are really gonna be be very um appreciative of you being real and and and very grateful. So thank you so much. Nice. Brett, if anyone wanted to get in touch with you, they can find you on the web, you know, or they can get in touch with me, I'll put them in touch with you. But Brett, you're a guy who knows the path and knows what it's like to to process grief, to walk with that for a long period of time, and to also still live life well, you know. So well done, Brett. Thanks so much.