Where I’m Landing Now on How God Views Me, With Nathan (Ep 14)

I’ve known Nathan for more than 20 years, and faith has not always been an easy journey for him. For a long time, he carried a lot of doubt, guilt and the feeling that he needed to do more to keep God happy.

In this episode of What The Heck Is Grace, Nathan talks honestly about how his view of God has changed. He used to feel like the prodigal son and often wondered whether he had wandered too far away. He compared himself to other Christians, struggled with his mental health and felt like he needed to work harder to earn God’s approval.

Over time, he has started to understand that grace is not something we earn. God’s love is not based on how well we perform, how much we achieve or how many mistakes we avoid.

We talk about the difference between conviction and condemnation, and why the voice saying, “You’re not good enough,” is not the voice of God. Nathan shares how Bible study, Christian friendships, music and being around other men of faith have helped him grow and begin to understand God’s love in a much deeper way.

He also talks about finding purpose after years of feeling lost, learning to accept himself and realising that the difficult things he has experienced may help him encourage other people going through similar struggles.

The conversation includes Ephesians 2, Romans 8, John 11:35 and Psalm 88. Nathan explains why the words “Jesus wept” mean so much to him, and how Psalm 88 helped him see that the Bible does not avoid honest conversations about pain, grief and mental health.

Nathan does not pretend to have everything worked out. This is a real conversation about stumbling, getting back up and slowly learning that God has not walked away.

If you feel like you are thousands of steps away from God, Nathan’s story may help you see things differently. Sometimes turning around is only one step.

We also talk about our weekly blokes’ Bible group, where we read the Bible, talk about life and try to be honest about what is actually going on.

Find out more or get in touch at:

https://whattheheckisgrace.com

#WhatTheHeckIsGrace #ChristianPodcast #Grace #Faith #MentalHealth

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm here with my good friend Nathan. Say hello, Nathan. Hey everyone, how are we? I'm sure they're doing all right because they're here hanging out with us. Today what we're looking at, Nathan and I have known each other for nearly 20 years, or maybe a little bit over 20 years actually. And and it hasn't always been smooth sailing for you, Nathan. Nathan, tell us about your faith. Are you a Christian or are you like what's your faith?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, I'm a Christian. I've been I gave my life to God when I was a teenager at a at a at a Christian concert, but I didn't really understand what I was stepping into. So for the first uh right up until probably in my twenties, I'm sort of uh had a lot of the doubt, a lot of n not understanding properly of what I was doing, but I knew God was there, but I just didn't know how, when, what, and yeah. So I felt like the a lot of the time I felt like the prodigal son. But as I got older and matured more and understood and embraced God's love more and more, I I'd probably say in my probably mid-30s, I actually started fully grasping the love and the grace of what God has to offer.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I think that's just great news. Because it just shows that for everyone who's listening, it's not simple. Life's not a simple walk in the park, it's got ups and downs, and you have seasons that are easy and seasons that are hard. And I just think that's remarkable. You and I met 20 years ago. That's just crazy. And when you and I met, I remember you were having a bit of a tough time. I'd often go home from work where I met you and I'd pray for you. I'd be like, God, look after Nathan. It's a bit of a hard season for him. And then here you are 20 years later, and you're now someone who encourages others. Every time I see you, you you're an encouragement of people. So it's amazing how that works out. What's your faith look like these days?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Actually uh reflected back on the just recently, and I can see it grows within the last probably three to five years or what I've ever had before. Because I'm attending the better blakes conventions which that you've been at, and so forth, and being around other guys too, just talking about Blake stuff, and uh as it says in the Bible, that iron sharp as iron, and that's what I really like. Yeah, so I feel that I've grown personally.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Jeremy is in Nathan and my Bible group, so he's come to join us, and that's awesome. I guess what you're saying then, Nathan, is things are very different from a couple of years ago. And what are some of the things you've learned along the way in the like last say year and a half, two years? What have you learned, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

What I've learned personally is it's okay to stumble. And what I'm saying is I used to feel guilty for a lot of things that I'd do wrong. Uh God's not gonna like me, I'm not gonna I'm gonna have to do all the works to get God to love me. When I found out it's not about works, it's about faith. And it's okay that we do stumble. And because we're only here and we're born into sin. And so now when I whenever I do have those moments, like we all do, I give it to God and yeah, ask ask for his forgiveness and his his yeah, it's just been a different take on him. I can actually feel his I can actually feel God more now than what I ever have previously because of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, that's interesting. Hey Jeremy, what are your thoughts? So I guess people listening to the podcast, what Nathan's talking about there is condemnation. We often condemn ourselves, and it's when we come into agreement with you what the enemy says about us. You're no good, you're bad, you're this, you're that, and that's condemnation. And it says in Romans 8:1, therefore there is now no condemnation for those from Christ, which is you, Nathan. What are your thoughts on that, Jeremy? Like, how do you deal with that sense of I'm not good enough? Which is not it's not how God views us, He views us as perfect. So how do you deal with that, Jeremy?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Over the years that I've been through ups and downs, pressure is for tires and not for people, and it just makes sense to not have hold of things too hard, difficult to understand by using another path with release resistance readable correct or you not to think that.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Wow. I love it, like because life's not a straightforward journey, is it? And you being able to say that, you probably wouldn't have viewed it like that five years ago, Jeremy, if I had to guess. Would I be right or wrong?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

That's right. Five years ago, I didn't even know Christ. Through good Christian people, through a lot of teaching and Bible verses, and men's care and a lot of good activities that involved Christ. I was able to learn the values of Christianity and how much calm I can see in life with it rather than without it.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Wow, that's so good. So Nathan, I guess how you view because this is the what the heck is grace podcast. It's about what grace is and what grace isn't. How you view grace now is very different from how you used to view it. You used to view God's grace to us basically as oh, I've earned this spot, I've earned the abrite to have grace, which sounds like a contradiction, but anyway. Whereas that's not how you view it now. Like no, how do you view it? Like, how would you put in words? Because there's lots of people who are still dealing with that sense of condemnation and self-doubt, and oh, does God even accept me? Those sort of fears, because they haven't read what you've read in the Bible. What would you say to them, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Found that for myself is like with I've had a lot of mental health issues and struggles and so forth, and that's partly where most of it has come from with the self-negative talk and all that sort of stuff, and turning that around and looking from the outside of the question, like taking yourself out of the equation, which is hard, but then you look at yourself and think, okay, yeah, this is not the way that other people view me, this is the way I should be viewing myself, and also reading in the Bible that God created us all all as masterpieces, and we're creating his image, and his image is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

And so I wouldn't say be something that's happened straight away, it happened over time, obviously, but I've learned to accept who I am and to love myself no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Wow, you just quoted the Bible there, which is interesting. So this is what you're quoting here, Nathan. You said Ephesians chapter 2, verse 10, for we are God's handiwork, or in other translations it says God's masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Now, if I look at you guys, Jeremy, I know some of the good works that God prepared in advance for you to do. He wanted you to encourage people because that's just what you do. Okay, that's just what you're built as. Nathan, what are the what do you think the good works are that God prepared in advance for you to do? What are your thoughts, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I'm sort of actually finding that out at the moment, but I'm feeling that because I used to always compare myself to other Christians and think, why am I why aren't I like them? And I've since found out recently that we're all different. God's created us different and we're all developed at different times and stages. And so I've only just realized now that that God wants me to help others like myself who have been through your struggles and hard times. And so I'm happy with that because for the last three or four years I just felt like I was just wandering around with no purpose, no, no aim, no nothing. Just thought, what am I here for? But now I've found that I have purpose within God and what to do on this earth. Yeah, I feel the spark and I feel the fire happening that I haven't felt for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

That's really cool. All right. I love that you've basically not just quoting the Bible, but you're living it out. And so these good works that God's prepared and master us to do, it may not be you're gonna walk on water or do something enormous, it may be something like we're just gonna help someone who's having a hard day.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Who knows? Jeremy, what questions have you got for brave and fearless Nathan here? Good question.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

In your own words, how would you describe your relationship with the father?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Now I'd be I've still got there's still room for work, as as in probably everyone else, but I feel that I've been drawn in close to God a lot more than what I ever have been, and that's why I think the fire is starting to burn really bright for me now that I'm understanding a lot more than I ever have before. There's so many passages I've read in the Bible that uh I've thought, yeah, that's nice, but actually fully understanding and embracing what's been read and what's been told is a is another thing in itself. So that's that's why I love going to these Bible studies that we have and stuff, it's just feeling just getting that spark back that I've I wasn't again for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Well, before you sang and arts, you never had a Bible study to begin with or a Bible community to a uh attach to.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, I did have Bible studies previously, but I didn't really connect on the spiritual level that I felt. Maybe at that time I wasn't mature enough, I don't know, but I just didn't feel that spiritual connection as what I have done recently. And I think probably because of of the devil trying to trick me into doing actions more than faith. And so here I was blindsided by that, that I didn't really have my heart open truly, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

As you probably know, we're God speaks to us in all different ways, in our own ways, and the only way to really connect and really digest what he's telling us is by really listening. Not hearing the words, but also remembering how important those words are to us. And that's what we do every week.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

That's what I feel is beneficial to everybody that is involved with this system that we've got.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Do you even for me like I'm remembering Bible verses and reason not as good as what it used to be? But just I know everything that's been in the Bible is written there for a reason. And even the one I was becoming there recently, is it's only got two words in the whole in the verse. But it's so powerful to me is uh as it ever has been, and it's in John eleven thirty-five where it says Jesus wept. Those two words like Yes, Jesus is human just like us, but to to know that he went through all the emotions just like we do now is fix volume to me that yes, he went through the hurt, he went through the fun times, he went through the bad times, he went through everything that we felt today. And that to me is yeah, those two words hold the not hold a place in my heart, but remind me daily that we we are like Jesus because we're a gods, we are God's creation. We're made in his image.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Wow, Jeremy, I know it goes through your head when Nathan says that, but what I'm excited about here is Nathan, you're on that journey, you're on a path. And if you look back at the Nathan I used to know 20 years ago, that Nathan was very intimidated by God. Somehow God's evaluating me constantly, and I have to perform for him. And then yeah, and that's different from what you're describing now. It's hard for us to let go of that mindset, I have to perform for God. Because that is just so in grandiose, particularly if people have experienced rejection like from their dad or had a dad who's just a bit crap in life, to be honest, a dad who just wasn't very good at being a dad. We end up with a a circumstance where we think that my dad was hard to please, or whoever our role models were, or even our boss were was hard to please, and therefore God is hard to please. But these people aren't God, and they didn't die for us. It takes a while. Like, what do you do when that I don't know, that desire in you to perform comes up? How do you deal with that part of you that wants to perform for God even though God's not interested in your performance? So, Nathan, the question is how do you handle that part of you that still thinks you have to earn God's approval when the Bible clearly says you already have God's approval?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

That part of me is is the devil tapping on my shoulder saying, You have to do this, you have to do that. I'm like, No, I don't have to listen to you, I listen to God. And that's where I've since found that was a big part of it. God's an all-loving God, he's an almighty God, he's not gonna sit up in heaven and look down at us and say, Oh, you did this and you did that, you're not coming to heaven, blah, blah, blah. That's where I've learned that's from the devil. And since learning also that we have the authority within Jesus to command all the all that the devil and the bad stuff out of us. So having that authority from God is next level to me.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I think that's that's really healthy.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

So that's why it doesn't bother me these days were used to back then.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, because back then you thought that that voice driving you is not voice, that compulsion driving you to do good, do better, you're not good enough. That was God. It's like that was never God. God doesn't condemn. That's not in his nature, not as New Testament believing Christians. Jeremy, what do you do so that people who are listening they want to learn from this? How do you handle that innate desire to perform for God to somehow impress him when he's like he's your dad, he's not there to be impressed. What are your thoughts on that, Jeremy?

SPEAKER_02 14:30

What you said, you don't really need to impress. You only need to live your life the way he would pretty much try and replicate decisions, all actions, all doings according to what he has said in the Bible. And what mental path people and just remember that you're the only one who can take something evil and make it vanish. Yeah, he can take it from you, you don't need it, he doesn't need it, but he takes it because he loves you.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

That's pretty awesome. See, there's freedom in Christianity that it's not easy to find elsewhere, which is I don't have to get it right. A lot of people view Christianity as something that hassles people and says to them you're not good enough. That's works, that's not New Testament Christianity at all, and it's certainly not Bible-based Christianity. This is that verse from Ephesians 2, chapter, sorry, chapter 2, verse 8 and 9, just before that verse that Nathan quoted before, where it says, For it is by grace you've been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. The most important what thing that I can say right now is the part that says, For it's by grace you've been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves. And yet the whole world is telling us, Oh, somehow God's demanding a performance from you, it's from yourself, it's from your own sense of righteousness, and that's just not what the word says. And there's so many people who they're very switched off to what the Bible says or what Christianity would say because they haven't understood that it's not from you. You're walking on a free ticket to a life that God's called you to, not you've earned it. What are your thoughts on that, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

As as you've known, I've I love loving music. I love listening to the I love the Christian music. And there's a DC talk on the Jesus Freak album, What if I stumble, what if I fall? That was the catalyst of me changing or maturing. I don't like to and thinking, okay, well it's okay to somebody it's our human nature. And then also in another song from Petra, there's a line in there that says, Even though it feels like you're ten thousand steps away from God, but don't you know that you turn around it's only one step back? And so here I am in a lot of those times since when I first gave my life to God, that I felt like I've wandered away and it's gonna take ages for me to get back, and that's when I've been real hard on myself, thanks to the devil talking. And now I've learned since that yeah, okay, I might have uh strayed a bit off the track or something, but God's still there right there holding my hand all the way through.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Man. What are you thinking, Jeremy? I'm thinking a lot of things there. That's so helpful.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

God's been a very good influencer in his name of life, and it's really encouraging to hear his stories and how he can come back to keep coming across and keep doing the things that he's doing to make sure that he can't wasting the gift that God gives him.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Yeah, that makes sense. And that's a different motive to being all about trying to impress God or perform for him. It's like, Holland, God's entrusted you with there's good works, good, amazing things that your life is designed to do that he has pre-planned for you to do. Go out and do those things. He's gifted you for them, he's given you life experiences that make it possible for you to use those abilities. Well, it's like that's a very different motivator to do life well than condemnation, which is I'm not good enough and I have to do better and I'm a bad person. Yeah. Man, I well, I I'm excited for it. What were you gonna say, sorry, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Uh, just last yeah, I was just gonna say a lot of that had to do with like my mental health. I've struggled with that for a number of years. And one thing I've been learning a lot, as I told you earlier before we started recording, was that in Psalms 88, it actually talks about like mental health back in in the Old Testament days and stuff. So that's really the real eye-appener for me to help me on my walk with God.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I'm just I'm gonna put Psalm 88 on the screen. Sorry, Psalm 88, up it goes now. And you can tell us what it is about this that it really helps. We now got Joel with us. Hey, it just gets better.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I was just looking back at it, it even starts from the first verse and saying, Lord, you are the God who saves me. That's me crying out out to God. But may my prayer come before you to turn your ear to my cry. I am overwhelmed with troubles and my life draws near to death. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. I am one I am like one without strength. I am set apart with the dead, like the slain here lie in the grave, whom you remember no more. And that's that first part there was like, wow, that's that sounded like me at the time. Wow, that's honest. Got it. And I'm just like, that's in the Bible. That's yeah. And even it keeps on going on that in verse eight, I am confined and cannot escape. My eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, Lord, every day. I spread out my hands to you. Yeah. And say if I can help anyone else out there that's yeah, like myself with mental health and struggles throughout the day or whatever, that yeah, just to read that and just know that yeah, God does listen and he does hear and he loves us un unconditionally.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I think that's helpful. I love it. I'll tell you what, this has been a really cool podcast. We've been a bit everywhere, and that's a good thing. And we should put in an ad here, like a pretend ad for our Bible group. So looking around, we've got Joel who hasn't yet got his camera working, and that's fine because he's still getting his dinner sorted. We've got Nathan who we've been interviewing, we've got Jeremy who lives three hours away from Nathan. No, six hours from Nathan. You've got me over here who I live in the same town as Joel, so we're like nine hours from Jeremy. We get together every week, we jump on Discord together and we read through the Bible. At the moment, we're reading through Matthew. We would invite whoever's listening to this podcast to join us, get in touch with us. It's not that hard on the website what the heck isgrace.com. There's details of how to get in touch with us. We'd love you to come and join us. This is a blokes bible group, and we worked. What have we read so far, guys? We read the book of James, we've read the book of Romans, we're halfway through Matthew. Is there anything I've missed? John. And then Nathan wants us to read through Philippians next after we finish Matthew. We've still got a week or two left. Matthew, we'll probably read a chapter or two a week and then we talk about whatever life. Yep. But yeah, this is so cool. Nathan, thank you for being part of this. Thank you for being real. And Jeremy, thank you for coming back for this. Like, how weird. And Joel, one day we might need to make a podcast episode with you. How cool would that be? But yeah, guys, get in touch if you want to want to join us. And Nathan, proud of you, mate. You're a bloke I've known for 20 years. You're a bloke I have so much respect for, and I appreciate you helping people with this stuff. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Likewise, Michael, thank you very much. And yeah, hope everyone get something out of this at least.