#007: The Power of Forgiveness with Fr. Chris Shofner

In this episode of The Abundant Catholic Podcast, Melissa invites Fr. Chris Shofner, a Catholic priest from Le Sueur, MN and the Spiritual Advisor for The Abundant Catholic to explore the profound topic of forgiveness. 

Fr. Chris shares his personal journey with forgiveness, the obstacles he faced, and the transformative power it holds. This podcast emphasizes the importance of opening ourselves to God's grace and one another for support in the journey of healing.

The conversation delves into the relationship between identity and forgiveness, highlighting how our inner freedom can be impacted by our ability to forgive and surrender. Fr. Chris shares his profound journey of healing through forgiveness, exploring the nuances of reconciliation, the importance of confronting truth, and the necessity of setting boundaries. He emphasizes the process of forgiving oneself and others, illustrating how these acts lead to spiritual growth and renewal. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding one's identity in Christ and that healing requires vulnerability and openness to God's grace. In the end, we are reminded that forgiveness has fruits (just as unforgiveness does) and that ultimately healing comes from total surrender to God, the just judge.

This episode is warm, real, and inviting, making it a critical listen for those seeking deeper restoration from past wounds and desiring wholeness and freedom. 

➡️Watch the video on Youtube!

✨Episode Takeaways:

• Forgiveness is a personal choice and a decision of the heart.
• Obstacles to forgiveness often stem from deep-seated resentment and anger.
• The journey of forgiveness is not a one-time event but a continuous process.
• Personal accompaniment & community play a crucial role in the healing process.
• Forgiveness requires surrendering our need for control and justice.
• The fruits of forgiveness include peace, compassion, and renewed relationships.
• Setting boundaries is essential for healing and trust.
• Self-forgiveness is as important as forgiving others.
• Compassion for oneself is crucial in the healing journey.
• Forgiveness is a form of redemptive suffering.

🔗Episode Links:

• Anthony & Melissa's personal Testimony eBook: He Makes a Way
• The Seed is Sleepy Children's Book*
•  Hinds Feet on High Places by Hannah Hurnard**

*Amazon affiliate links offer us a small kickback with purchase at no additional cost to you. **Episode correction on author name and that it is an allegorical book, not an analogy. 

❤️Episode Sponsor: HELP Pregnancy Aid - Empowering women to choose LIFE in life's difficult circumstances. Support HELP by

Transcript

The Abundant Catholic (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Abundant Catholic podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Krupp. And today I'm joined by Father Chris Shofner from Minnesota. He is our spiritual advisor with the Abundant Catholic, but he's here to tell us about his testimony of transformation on the power of forgiveness. You guys, his testimony is so powerful and potent. He gets into parts of his story in which he was holding onto unforgiveness and really lies that he had let take root in his life and how that kept him.

from the full freedom and the full glory in which he was made for.

So join us on the journey as we hear from Father Chris.

Today, we're going to delve into the great and tender topic of forgiveness, what it is to forgive someone, the process of forgiveness, common misconceptions, and what the church teaches and how we can actually experience fruits from forgiveness. But first, a warm welcome to our guest, Father Chris Shofner. Hello, Father Chris. Thank you for coming on the show today.

Fr. Chris Shofner (02:08)
Thank you for having me.

The Abundant Catholic (02:09)
Yeah, absolutely. A little bio on Father Chris. he is a Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of St. Paul, Minneapolis, originally from Nicholasville, Kentucky. Is that correct? He graduated in 1997 with a Bachelor of Science in Psychology, along with a double minor in Chemistry and Mathematics. Well, amazing. And began doctoral studies in neuroscience at the University of Minnesota.

Fr. Chris Shofner (02:21)
That is correct.

The Abundant Catholic (02:35)
So after a period of discernment, he entered St. Paul's Seminary in 1999 and was ordained to the priesthood in 2005. Happy over 20 years. Incredible. What an honor. So following ordination, Father Shofner served briefly as parochial vicar at St. John the Baptist Church in Savage, Minnesota,

In 2008, he became pastor of St. Anne Church in La Sur, is that correct? La Sur, okay. A rural Catholic community in South Central Minnesota of about 500 households, including a thriving Catholic school, which has pre-K through grade five. So you're currently there, that's your current position.

Fr. Chris Shofner (03:03)
Yes.

Currently there, I've been there since 2018 or 19, so yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (03:20)
Wow,

so you know the place pretty well and everyone knows you know, right? Yeah, right. I'm sure, I'm sure, So Father Chris was introduced to Inner Healing Ministry through a training at the John Paul II Healing Center in Tallahassee, Florida, which is incredible,

Fr. Chris Shofner (03:24)
little do well enough so.

The Abundant Catholic (03:35)
but he also received formation and certification through encounter ministries And then Metanoia Catholic as a mindset coach and you've pursued pastor leadership training through Amazing Parish and Divine Renovation. Wow,

you clearly have a heart for healing.

Fr. Chris Shofner (03:51)
healing and, you know, being ⁓ a fruitful leader in the parish and the ministries that I do, I was very much motivated by my own journeys in inner healing and my desire to put forth the gifts that I have to the service of God and His Church. So what better way than to, you know, continue to learn about how to minister appropriately and, you know, encounter ministries was such a blessing to me to learn.

to tap into the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority that he gives us, not just for my own personal growth, but for the healing of others who are striving for inner healing in their own lives. So, so Encounter Ministries has been wonderful in that respect and opened up a whole new world of the Spirit for me.

The Abundant Catholic (04:35)
Wow. Yeah, we feel that mutually

like changes our lives, change our marriage, our family, even out into our community, we talk about the fruits of that. It's a whole other topic for another day. But I know at the heart of your priesthood, you have a desire to help people encounter freedom and wholeness in Jesus Christ, especially through ministry and identity and Christ's forgiveness like we're talking about today. And you've mentioned surrender, helping young men or youth or young adults. So you're doing it all

father, like what an honor to have you here. ⁓ So I also need to give a shout out to our sponsor, Help Pregnancy Aid. They're located in the heart of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and help offer support to expectant mothers, children and families who are in need of support. And they provide pregnancy testing, ultrasounds and abortion information, helping you choose life amidst life's challenges. Help Pregnancy Exist as a place where all plans for a bright future can be explored.

you're welcome to visit online at helppregnancy.org to support and share and even make a donation if you feel the call to do so. So Father, I'm so excited because just hearing that intro, gosh, there's going to be so many gems in this episode. for our listeners today, Father, Chris is going to be sharing his personal testimony of the transformative power of forgiveness and why it's critical that we choose this over resentment, revenge, bitterness,

whatever it is that's taking place, that's holding us captive in our hearts as like an impediment to full freedom, right? Where we feel stuck. So first though, Father, let's just open up in a quick prayer for our listeners. just to kind of help settle our hearts because this is a big topic and I know you have a lot to share and I'm just really excited to hear. So if you'd be so kind to open up in prayer, that would be wonderful.

Fr. Chris Shofner (06:20)
Absolutely. the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Come, Holy Spirit, come and fill the hearts of your faithful.

We come before you, Lord. We ask that you open our minds, open our hearts, open our spirits to your healing mercy, most especially as we talk about this most beautiful, tender topic of forgiveness. You know, for all that weighs upon our hearts, anything we may hold, Lord, we ask that we may be guided by your Spirit to let go of that, to hand it over to you, and that we may be strengthened, we may be nourished, we may be healed through your loving mercy.

Lord, we ask that your grace may touch the hearts of all who hear these words and all that we strive to go out and to forgive ourselves. And we ask this all in the name of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Abundant Catholic (07:13)
Amen. Thank you so much Father.

All right, so I do want to quote John Paul II before I get started because he's amazing and we love theology of the body and all that he did. Like the great John Paul II is just amazing. So he says that, Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. So now it's your turn. Father Chris, why don't you share with us about your journey of forgiveness and experiencing the fruit

that come from it. I'm sure that our listeners are eager to hear your personal take. And then following we're gonna ask Father Chris some insights into some of those subtopics that come with forgiveness and that surround it that we mentioned earlier. So take it away Father Chris.

Fr. Chris Shofner (07:57)
Okay. Well, I love that quote, first of all, from John Paul too, because it's, know, forgiveness is ultimately a choice. you know, oftentimes there's so many obstacles that are set up within our hearts and our spirits that, despite our best desire to forgive, you know, something in us just doesn't feel like we can.

And that's where we need grace, first and foremost, to help us in that journey. in my own life, as I think about my own personal history with forgiveness, I can pinpoint a number of different stories over the years, ever since I was in middle school, high school, all the way into even close to current day where forgiveness has been a necessity, a need. And I've noticed it's,

as kind of the biggest obstacle even just to my general inner healing. a lot of the bad fruits that have come from in my life as far as, my own vices, my own...

inner thoughts, you know, like they spiral. I've gone back and I've pinpointed that they come largely from a lack of forgiveness. That's when they tend to be raring their ugly head the most. So, and when I think about forgiveness, I go back to, first of all, a story in my own, my household growing up with my mom in particular. And so my parents divorced when I was in first or second grade and over the years, my

The Abundant Catholic (09:08)
Yeah.

Mm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (09:26)
My parents had a very good relationship even after divorce, but my mom did, you know, attempt to date a number of men and there was one particular man that she dated when I was in high school that was a nice enough man to begin with, but without going into too many details became a bit, let's say, he was abusive, I will say. Yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (09:49)
Wow. I

Fr. Chris Shofner (09:51)
His words were very

The Abundant Catholic (09:52)
haven't seen it.

Fr. Chris Shofner (09:54)
harsh.

You know, his actions, I've witnessed some of the abusive behavior that he inflicted on my mom as well. And, you know, it really built up within my heart a lot of resentment towards him, a lot of anger. And most of my high school years, I spent just very angry, you know, because of that environment. And I would say primarily because of him. And, you know, and I would not let it go. And, you know, it would, you know, one

The Abundant Catholic (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

in it.

Fr. Chris Shofner (10:23)
the effects of it was it not just the anger but it actually you know pushed me into a very deep depression throughout my whole years and you know it got me physically sick you know my thoughts couldn't get over it I went home and I would live in anxiety and in fear a lot of the time and you know I couldn't wait to get out of the house you know for college you know

The Abundant Catholic (10:30)
Hmm.

Well.

I'm sure. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (10:47)
But I

realized when I was in college, know, it wasn't, you know, escaping the place wasn't an escape from the reality of what was in my heart. yeah, so I continued to hold on to the resentment and the physical ramifications of that mentally as well. And I realized then it's like, you know what, this is not

The Abundant Catholic (10:55)
Right, right, that's the horror of it, truly, yeah.

Wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (11:11)
This is not helping me. And I need some way to deal with it and to release it. And I remember going to church one day to Mass and the priest was preaching on forgiveness and particularly Jesus's exhortation, pray for your enemies. And I told myself, I'm going to pray for this man and everything will change. It's like Jesus said it's going to happen.

The Abundant Catholic (11:15)
Mm.

Yeah.

Like a magic wand. Yep.

Fr. Chris Shofner (11:37)
Exactly, exactly. And I prayed for him, but nothing happened. And I said, know, I just need to keep praying. I just need to persevere in that. And trust, trust, you know. And I prayed and nothing happened.

The Abundant Catholic (11:41)
That's so true. Wow.

Thanks.

Fr. Chris Shofner (11:52)
And I prayed and nothing happened. And it was just like that's that's, you know, sock in the face where it's kind of like, I thought you promised that if we pray, then forgiveness will come. And it just wasn't happening. And and and I would each morning I would wake up, you know, with the same anger and the same resentment and the same anxiety and stress. And nothing was changing. But I decided to kind of keep praying. And so but there was a day I remember.

The Abundant Catholic (11:54)
Mm-hmm.

night.

Fr. Chris Shofner (12:17)
very clearly and I woke up in my dorm room one morning and I thought about what had happened at home and every other morning I would think about that and I would just be filled with anxiety and fear and anger. That morning none of that was present and I realized then that

I could think about the hurt. I could think about the offense and I can pray for him and I can say, forgive you. But it didn't become real forgiveness until I realized that I was no longer stung by it. and I, ever since then, I realized that, that's the indicator, you know, to know that I had forgiven that, you know, we're, never going to necessarily forget the offense or the, or the wound.

But the key is I can think about it but not react in the same way. I can get to a point where I'm not stung. And that's the grace. It wasn't anything where I said, this morning is going to be the morning that I wake up and I'm no longer going to feel it. It was just like, God promised if you...

The Abundant Catholic (13:16)
Wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (13:30)
if you persevere in this, I will come through. I will give you my grace and I will give you the gift." And he came through. And I was able to forgive and I was able to leave it behind. And I can still think about what happened in the past, but not have the anger anymore. And in a sense, I can even have compassion, in a sense, for him.

The Abundant Catholic (13:54)
Wow,

Fr. Chris Shofner (13:55)
you know, and that was like the first big lesson I learned about forgiveness growing up, is how to recognize it. You know, because it's not a one and done. You know, it doesn't come just because you want it. And it doesn't come just because you're trying really hard, you know, in a one time deal. It comes when you continue to be faithful.

The Abundant Catholic (14:05)
Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (14:20)
to loving your enemy and desiring their good. Because I could have prayed to God and said, I want to forgive him and I want him to be like this and I want him to turn into my image that I have for him. But in the end, I learned to pray for him and say, God, I have to give him over to you. You will surrender, surrender.

The Abundant Catholic (14:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, is that Sarentha? Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (14:46)
And Lord, you know what he needs. You know the good that you have in store for him. You want him to be holy. You want him to be happy. You want him to have peace in his own heart and soul. And who am I to interfere with what God wants for him?

The Abundant Catholic (14:50)
Wow.

Wow. Yeah, but that's mercy

too. Like you're extending that to get to a place where your soul is able to extend mercy is a huge growth. I mean that takes because really

when somebody's betrayed in such a way through any form of abuse for any listeners here, any form of, somebody's being abused, if you look at the term abuse and what it is derived from, somebody's not, using you like a means to an end,

there's going to be the stages of betrayal in there, and there can be anger. can be extreme pain. even like you know, some people you're in rage because it's injustice. And so for you to even get to a place, I'm sure that was quite the journey. Yeah. There's so much there. feel like we could just unpack from that alone. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (15:48)
There is and we can continue to unpack it

but you know, you know as you're talking I was I was thinking it's like, you know, yeah, the you know, the natural tendency is to want to to do what's easy and it's it's easier for us to hold on to the anger, you know

The Abundant Catholic (16:03)
That because that's that

you always have that sense of control.

And it's more comfortable to be angry because really it does go against that natural order. Like St. John Paul says, to pay back evil with evil. Right? It goes against that because really as humans, like nobody deserves forgiveness. Right? If they've done wrong, the natural order would be like, well, they've done wrong. So this is the consequence. And that because of Christ, we have this gift of forgiveness. It truly is a gift, but also

Fr. Chris Shofner (16:07)
Exactly.

Exactly.

The Abundant Catholic (16:33)
the acceptance, you have to come to a place of acceptance. And so I'd love to hear more about that. There's a lot to unpack there. Is there any more that you want to share? I mean, you were probably what in college at that point when you kind of came that place?

Fr. Chris Shofner (16:44)
I was,

so I had actually started, I might've misspoken a little bit, but I started praying for him in my last year or two of high school. And I remember it was like towards the end of my freshman year where I ended up with this moment. It was, your tendency is to want to seek revenge and to want to hold up justice as the overriding.

The Abundant Catholic (17:07)
Thank

Fr. Chris Shofner (17:10)
you know, story here that he did wrong and he should not have done it and he deserves to pay for that. And, you know, to let go of that need for justice was really difficult. It was really hard. was one of those things where it's like, you know what, am I the one to meet out the justice here? Am I the one that has the right to do that? And how would I do that? You know, our form of justice, you know, in the world is often

The Abundant Catholic (17:31)
Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (17:38)
certainly not charitable. ⁓ And, you know, we would tend to perhaps, you know, take an eye for an eye. And, you know, what are they saying? An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. You know, so, you we that's not the route that Christ has called us to.

The Abundant Catholic (17:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right? Which can be really frustrating though. And so like for you in your story where you're sharing, okay, I'll just do this thing. Like it's like a crockpot Like I'm going to put in all these ingredients that you tell me to do God and this is it's going to turn out. Right? Like, know, in his time, you know, slow cooking, like this forgiveness is slow cooking for a lot of us.

Fr. Chris Shofner (18:13)
Yeah, and even then at that time, you know, I would say my faith in God's promise was pretty strong. It's like if God promised this, it's going to happen. But, you know, there's a human tendency to kind of say, well, how long is this going to take, Lord? You know, and it's like, our patience wears thin so quickly and we're not spiritually strong enough to bear those crosses. Only Christ is strong enough to bear that cross. So, you you want

The Abundant Catholic (18:25)
gosh, I know that. How long? How much longer?

Mm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (18:40)
your tendency is to want to give up and put the cross down and just revert back to what you know. And like you said, know, anger is a form of control. It's like, at least I'm, I feel powerful when I'm angry. Where oftentimes when we're offended and we're wounded, we feel like we've lost every sense of control. So how do we rest that back? It's we, we lapse into anger, relapse into

overthinking, anxiety, you know, whenever we can to at least say like, I'm engaging this in a way and maybe not in a healthy way, but taking a step somewhere.

The Abundant Catholic (19:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, because that's just our tendency is to need to step somewhere instead of just remaining in that uncomfortable pain, that cross of being wounded. Like, right? We're just sitting in the wound and I feel like we just...

we want to run from that. I heard this analogy. I just saw that the Abiding Together podcast just dropped an episode on forgiveness as we're filming this. So if listeners, if you want to listen to that too, it's on season 18 episode two. But one of them, I can't remember who it was in the podcast. Maybe it was Michelle. She was pondering on how the women remained at the cross with Jesus and what it would have taken for them to stand there and watch as it just

unfolded and there was no glory yet and like they couldn't see in the future and it was all just pure injustice. All of it, like none of it was deserved and they stood there and remained with Christ and I was just pondering on that as I was getting ready for for this episode and how it's so true for so many of us like we

We don't want to sit in that feeling because it causes us so much grief and pain. And then we're faced with our insecurities. We're faced with rejection. We're faced with whatever's inside of us, our own demons, right? Like when somebody hurts us, our own demons, our own woundedness even gets magnified in a sense. Maybe some things that were already there are our own insecurities because maybe for many of us, where we placed our identity,

It wasn't in Christ. It was in ourselves. It was in our identity as a son or daughter of whoever your parents are. It was in your last name. was, you know, maybe as a kid you were on the football team. As an adult, whatever your job is in, right? And that's that, that identity crisis of our time, I feel like, even for any of us who are like, what's going on? Like, if I can't have my identity and my family, then who's my identity? And so I'm just curious, what was that like for you? ⁓

in reflection of your identity, like did you battle any of that? Do you want to speak into that a little bit?

Fr. Chris Shofner (21:23)
I did. In fact, you know, I have another story about forgiveness, which actually has a lot more bearing on identity in a sense. But what I will say, you know, even in that one, my one part of the story, you know, there is a ⁓ lack of identity. In fact, I felt that, you know, at that age, I felt I was still trying to form an identity and I didn't quite understand.

The Abundant Catholic (21:27)
Yeah, okay.

Okay.

Thank

Fr. Chris Shofner (21:45)
myself enough and I didn't understand my relationship with Christ or the Father for that reason well enough to cement anything in. So, know, to have a lot of, you know, turmoil in life, you know, just made it even harder to foster any kind of identity. ⁓ yeah, it really set me up to feel very lost ⁓ in

The Abundant Catholic (22:04)
Yeah, to live, really.

And so it.

Fr. Chris Shofner (22:11)
time of life as a youth, young adult. And I carry that with me for many years. ⁓ I will say, there's been number of times, of course, over the years where I've had some opportunities or needs to forgive people for lesser things. But my other part of the story, which is a much more recent ⁓ story, actually began back in 2020. So it was five or six years ago.

The Abundant Catholic (22:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, okay.

Fr. Chris Shofner (22:38)
So I had been working professionally with an individual and we were working in some ministry together and it wasn't in my parish, it was outside the parish and we had a really good professional relationship and it turned into a really good friendship. And we were talking regularly and sharing about ministry successes and failures and struggles. it's funny, once you kind of like

get through a period of, you know, hurt and healing, you kind of forget all the details. So I, it's, it's, it's kind of hard for me to like pinpoint all the details of how this happened. But, know, over the course of about, I would say nine or 10 months, something happened where that relationship turned very toxic. And, you know, to a point where

The Abundant Catholic (23:13)
Thank

Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (23:31)
You know, any kind of professional counsel that, you know, he was giving me before was basically a flat out refusal to give any counsel. you know, it got to a point where there were, very harsh words, you know, said, um, you know, I, got to a point where, I was, I was questioning my effectiveness as a pastor leader. I was questioning my effectiveness as a priest.

I was questioning whether I should even stay in the priesthood. was, yeah, yeah, it was, I mean, it was starting to dismantle really everything that's, you know, I had tried to build over, you know, 45 years of life. And it was, it was quite the blow. And that's without going into all the details of it, but, you know, suffice it to say it was, you know, the entire identity that I had worked so hard to.

The Abundant Catholic (24:01)
Whoa, that's a big one. Holy cow.

my.

Yeah. ⁓

Fr. Chris Shofner (24:27)
to foster that my life was shattered. Reflecting on that, I began to think about sometimes the greatest resentments and bitterness that we tend to hold onto is not just because someone did something or said something bad to us. It's because it does damage those deeply held values or beliefs that we hold about ourselves or God or about who we are. ⁓ And once those foundations are damaged,

The Abundant Catholic (24:46)
Mm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (24:54)
you know, we're left with nothing. then, and that's where the resentments come. At least that's how it was for me. You know, those very fragile parts of self, you know, that I, you know, had held so dearly were no longer there. So that had happened, you know, around, you know, 2021, certainly by the fall of 2021.

The Abundant Catholic (25:07)
Wow, yeah.

Okay.

Fr. Chris Shofner (25:17)
I was in this pretty deeply and feeling this sense of unforgiveness and resentment and anger and bitterness. And to a point where I was journaling at the time and every single day, if I go back, I'm like, was I really that person? know, to kind of like, you know, was I really that much in a dark place where...

The Abundant Catholic (25:32)
Whoa.

So

would you say you were despairing? Wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (25:41)
I was. I

was. I was, you know, because it's funny because, you know, when you become angry, when you become resentful, when you become unforgiving, it has a way of eating away at the heart. And it changes you. And, you know, you could be the most joyful person before, but if you're unforgiving, it can turn you into a very despairing, sad, depressed person.

The Abundant Catholic (25:55)
Mm-hmm.

man,

that speaks to me. Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (26:09)
very anxious and and and I'm a

my temperament. I'm a melancholic by nature. So in the temperaments, so I tend to, you know, introspect a lot and more deeply. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, so so I can I can tend to get down really easily. And this was something that really got me down. And, you know, I look back at journal entries and it was just it was, you know, I felt right now I can look back and I

The Abundant Catholic (26:15)
was fighting.

Yup, I'm there with you. Like Eeyore

Fr. Chris Shofner (26:38)
told someone once I said, gosh, if if present me was with that, that guy from four years ago, then I would have had such compassion on me because it's just like, I don't ever want you to have to go through that. know, we need to look at ourselves. Yeah, yeah, we need to look at ourselves with that kind of compassion when we're when we're feeling that way, because, you know, we tend to think again, going back to like the idea of anger, it's like, you know, anger is, gosh, so detrimental to

The Abundant Catholic (26:52)
That's healed you. That's powerful. Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (27:07)
to the spirit, but that deserves as much compassion as if we were sad or fearful.

The Abundant Catholic (27:12)
⁓ if not more, mean, anger is a secondary

emotion. So there's often grief or loss under it. And you're losing it for you, you were losing a friendship and you were losing a companion, you were losing a confidant, probably.

Fr. Chris Shofner (27:18)
Exactly.

Yeah, someone that I, at the time,

I trusted probably more than anyone. And then to have all that shattered for even reasons I don't completely understand still. you know, so, so what I did was I realized by early 2022 that I needed to do something about that and, I needed to forgive. That was going to be the only way I was going to get through that. So I actually ended up, you'll notice like I wear two rings right now, but at the time,

The Abundant Catholic (27:30)
my gosh.

⁓ the pain of that is so real. Yeah.

Okay.

Good.

⁓ I see that now.

Fr. Chris Shofner (27:55)
Yeah, so I wear

two rings, but at the time I bought a ring and I'm not wearing it now, but I had a ring on this finger and I bought it in the spring of 2022 and it was, I called it my forgiveness ring. And it ⁓ was a ring and it had kind of engraved or inscribed around it a forgiveness prayer. And it was basically a little sense like, know, Lord, I forgive.

The Abundant Catholic (28:06)
Wow.

wow, that's powerful.

Fr. Chris Shofner (28:20)
All of those who have offended me, I forgive myself for the ways I've hurt myself in any way, done damage to my own spirit. And I forgive anyone else that's, you know, might've been damaged in the process. And I decided that I was going to wear that ring until I forgave. You know, I wanted it as a daily reminder to me, you know, that I need it to forgive and I need it to be very conscious and intentional about it.

The Abundant Catholic (28:25)
Thank you.

you

Fr. Chris Shofner (28:46)
And I ended up wearing that ring for over three years. Every day I put it on and every day I'd be proud of

The Abundant Catholic (28:51)
wow, that's... perseverance, I'm

perseverance, that's perseverance. Wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (28:58)
Yeah. So, and so I would wear for three years, but I thought, well, surely this is going to like motivate me to forgive because I would pray for him. I would, you know, pray for, you know, grace to fill me and I would read books. I would listen to podcasts. I would talk to people. you know, all things, even I reached out to him to try to reconcile and nothing seemed to take it away. And I act if any. Yeah, I know. So if anything, I was getting worse and

The Abundant Catholic (29:12)
Do all the things.

Whew, that's a hot topic.

Mmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (29:27)
And I was just like, God, what gives here? And, you know, one of my favorite scriptures actually is from the book of Habakkuk, the prophet Habakkuk, chapter three. At the very end, if you're familiar with that book, it's only three chapters long, so very short. You he spends the entire book kind of lamenting everything bad that's going on. At the beginning, he's like...

The Abundant Catholic (29:36)
wow. Yeah.

Okay.

Fr. Chris Shofner (29:52)
You know, how long is this all going to last, Lord? All I look around me is destruction and despair and sadness and sorrow and loss. And he goes on and on about this throughout the entire book until the very end. And then he says at the very end, says, yet this is what I will keep in my heart and soul. And I'm paraphrasing, he says, you know, though there be no no figs on the tree, there be no herds in the stall, no flocks in the field. He says this, this I know he's like. ⁓

The Abundant Catholic (29:57)
Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (30:19)
Yet I will rejoice in the Lord my God. You know, for he is my strength and he makes my feet like those of the hinds that run upon the road. And, you know, I always like held on to him. Yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (30:27)
Okay, I know that verse now. That's Hinds Feet in High Places. That book,

have you ever heard of it? Hinds Feet in High Places? It's based off of that scripture verse. It's a super, yeah, it's by Heather Hubbard. I'll link it in the show notes for the listeners. A really beautiful, it's a book of analogy of a girl named Muchafraid.

Fr. Chris Shofner (30:38)
Evans.

Yeah, it's very powerful.

The Abundant Catholic (30:52)
And she goes on this journey with, the great shepherd or something, was Jesus. And it's this whole analogy of her healing and her facing like her inner, people have a hurt her her whole life. And it's her journey of freedom out of the hurt and how Christ takes her to hide in his places where she continues to choose freedom, even in its mess, even in not seeing what's ahead, even in the terrain, the journey that she goes on in these.

these rocky places, the storms that she encounters, leaving other people behind, walking away from the pain, the places of pain and moving forward. So this whole book is this analogy. So it's so interesting you bring that up. Yeah, That's really, that's a powerful, powerful verse.

Fr. Chris Shofner (31:28)
Yeah, it's...

I will pass that passage along to people all the time because it's so often we are trying so hard and working so hard to cooperate with God and His grace and we're not seeing fruit. But it's like, you know what? Even though I don't see it, I know that God is still my strength. I still have to run.

The Abundant Catholic (31:41)
you

Would you call that

self-reliance? mean, because I feel like that's just our need to like figure it out. We kind of like the wound is open, it hurts, it's stinging like you talked about that sting earlier. We just want to like get some relief. And so we're just grabbing at everything and it's beautiful what we do like there's no shame in that. I think that's definitely the way in which we process as humans is like how can I?

How can I step out of this really hot area? Like I need some reprieve. But that's self reliance, right? And so really that verse is, yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (32:18)
It is, it is. And you know, we are

constantly being called to trust in God. And that doesn't mean that we're called to just be passive, but it is called that any effort we have, we just need to entrust that to God and cooperate with him and allow grace to do the work. Because it's like we do the work, but we entrust the fruits of it to God.

The Abundant Catholic (32:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

that's beautiful because really forgiveness is an act of surrender of the heart where you're saying, okay, God, I'm going to show up and give you my heart today, but I'm going to learn to rest in the truth.

that you see everything and that your justice will reign. know this because of the paschal mystery. We know this because of Christ's cross, his woundedness leads to the resurrection. So bypassing that and pretending like it's not there, if we're passive about it, we're avoidant, whatever, that's not going to do us any good, right? But being present to it.

If we sit and remain with Christ, we have to know that promise of hope that in His time, in due time, you we don't have to wait any longer. Like the Lord's justice does reign in the mystery of the Lord and of our Christian faith. But how many of us fall into that self-reliance, right? So there's so many good things you're touching on, Father. Do you have any more you want to share surrounding that story?

Fr. Chris Shofner (33:35)
Yeah,

I mean, there's lots to the story. There's the whole resolution to it. you know, as I was struggling through this, I trusted that things would work out eventually, but the question always for me was, what do I do in the meantime? How do I deal with the despair and how do I deal with the anxiety and the sadness and...

The Abundant Catholic (33:39)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (33:58)
of energy and the lack of connection to anyone and the lack of motivation.

The Abundant Catholic (33:59)
Wow. What? Yeah, you were tired.

You were probably exhausted. It's exhausting.

Fr. Chris Shofner (34:04)
I was

completely exhausted. people noticed it about me in the parish. they most kind of kept their distance. don't think we tend to know how to approach people when they're going through hard times. But I talked to a couple of people, close friends in the parish. And I have one really, really good friend that I talk to quite often about it. And he's an amazing man. And it was actually last summer.

The Abundant Catholic (34:13)
and

Fr. Chris Shofner (34:32)
July of 2025. And it was kind of the pivotal time for this whole scenario. And I went over and I talked to him. And this is a man who's, you know, had kind of seen me struggle and he knew kind of the story. And he was constantly reassuring me. He was like, you know, you're you would say, yeah, you're doing a good job. And, he would say, you know, don't don't worry. I'm I'm here for you.

The Abundant Catholic (34:54)
Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (34:59)
And he would say, you really don't have to show up as anyone other than who you are at this time. And there was something about those statements that spoke truth into the lies and the false beliefs that I had developed in my head because of this whole betrayal, if you will, because what shattered within me was the very belief that I had any worth.

that, know, why would anyone want to walk with me through this? Why would anyone want to be loyal to this? Why would anyone stay? And, you know, can I be effective as a priest or even as a human being, you know, in this state? But the beautiful thing was that this friend had showed me the very heart of Christ. know, he was speaking as a friend, but

The Abundant Catholic (35:31)
Yeah.

Right.

Mm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (35:48)
They were the words of Jesus, you know. And even though he didn't know that was exactly what I needed to hear, you know, in the end, it was exactly what I needed to hear. You know, it spoke to those wounds that I had, and it means it meant everything to me. And I remember having that talk with him, and then the next week, I went home to visit family in Kentucky, and had a good time.

The Abundant Catholic (35:48)
Thank

Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (36:16)
with them and I would take a walk every day up the hill to the county park and I would walk around for about an hour and I would think about these things and I would think about these things that my friend had told me and you know just trying to process it all and I did I drove back to Minnesota right there at the end of July and it was funny because I was in northern Iowa of all places in Iowa and

The Abundant Catholic (36:28)
Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (36:40)
I decided that I was going to stop at a rest stop and just to kind of get a little bit of rest, and I stretched my legs and you grab something out of the vending machine. I went to the restroom and I came back out and it was right before sundown. So the sun was still up, but it was a nice night. And I looked over to the right of the rest stop, the building, and there was this, there was a kind of a wall, of a, it was a veterans memorial wall.

The Abundant Catholic (36:43)
Okay.

Fr. Chris Shofner (37:10)
It was right around that time, end of July, we still had that up. And they had a bench there and I decided to sit down on the bench and I sat there and I was just kind of like people watching and kind of watching some of the traffic go by on the interstate. And I looked down at the ring that I had and I kind of was starting to twirl it around my finger and I looked at it and something in me just said, now's the time.

The Abundant Catholic (37:10)
All right. Yeah.

wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (37:35)
And

all the prayer and everything that I had been processing in my heart and spirit, it was just like it was all coming to this point. And I said, now's the time. And I looked down at my feet and there was a flower pot. And it had red, white, and blue flowers. And I took off the ring and I placed it in the dirt of the flower pot. And I sat there for a moment. And then I stood up.

The Abundant Catholic (37:51)
Move.

Oh, wow. That's so interesting. What an interesting story. Like, the most random place that the Lord is just coming, like the veil between heaven and earth is so thin. Outside the rest stop. Right? Like, a little flower pot.

Fr. Chris Shofner (38:03)
and never look back. was, yeah, it was.

And there's, you know,

God kind of speaks, you know, in very mysterious ways, you know, not just the fact that, you know, you know, he took me through all of that really negative time in my life. And, you know, he allowed me to talk to my friend and my friend spoke the words I needed to hear. And I had the time off where I could just be at home and think and process and pray and then bring me to this place in Iowa at a memorial that that is really dedicated to

The Abundant Catholic (38:25)
He does, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (38:49)
freedom, you know, and then you're say this is the time and God spoke and I was able to leave that there and walk back and I remember driving the last few hours back to Minnesota here and I said, know what, I need a new ring. need, I kind of, my finger feels a little bare so I need a new ring and I ordered a ring actually literally a day or two after I got back. I wanted

The Abundant Catholic (39:13)
Whoa, yeah, you were ready.

Fr. Chris Shofner (39:15)
Yeah, I wanted it to highlight the journey. So I said I have two rings, but this is the one I ordered. And it's a very simple ring. It's got two different colored bands in it. And it signified the journey that my friend helped. He accompanied me and such. And so I bought that to of commemorate to me in a very unique and private way, the journey. ⁓ The next week.

The Abundant Catholic (39:20)
Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that's so beautiful. Well, what?

Fr. Chris Shofner (39:43)
I guess there's another part of the story.

The Abundant Catholic (39:44)
Yeah, go for it.

Fr. Chris Shofner (39:46)
the next week was my birthday and I was turning 50 and a group of friends from the parish threw me a birthday party. And a lot of them are folks that know some of my story and this one particular friend was there and the group of friends decided to buy me this ring.

The Abundant Catholic (39:49)
okay.

That's sweet.

Fr. Chris Shofner (40:06)
You know and like they didn't know I already ordered one but you know, they they bought me this one and it's a funny one because it's it it Calls to mind Kentucky because it's made out of bourbon barrels reclaimed bourbon

The Abundant Catholic (40:16)
Wow. So they didn't

know that you bought your ring and they went and bought you a ring separate.

Fr. Chris Shofner (40:21)
No.

Yeah, they went and bought this one to kind of commemorate because they, you know, they love they I think they they love the fact that, you know, they they knew my story and, you know, they they wrote a really nice card and it's like this is just like this was reclaimed, you know, from old bourbon barrows. So also your life will be claimed by Christ, you know, through act of forgiveness. And, you know, it's like they it was just like this this beautiful affirmation that

The Abundant Catholic (40:24)
What?

my gosh.

Fr. Chris Shofner (40:49)
God has been present in this the entire time and the forgiveness that I finally was able to do was genuine and it was real and you know to know that all the lies that I've been told were indeed lies and the truth is you are loved and the truth is you are wanted and the truth is you are good and you are worth it and nothing's going to take away that and you know and

The Abundant Catholic (40:50)
whole time.

Mm.

And then.

and then.

Fr. Chris Shofner (41:18)
There was just like such a healing thing. And if I had not been able to focus on the path of forgiveness, I never would have come to be confronted with that truth. there are a few things about forgiveness that I learned from that whole process. I think the first thing is, when God works, he often works very slowly.

The Abundant Catholic (41:35)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Painfully.

Fr. Chris Shofner (41:42)
mindfully

slowly, but invisibly. the thing is, know, until again, like similar to my other story, until you wake up one day and suddenly things shift. it's not. Yes, yes and no. So it was it was a breakthrough, but it wasn't something that just happened just like that. It's like God has been working underneath it all the entire time. And it was just that was the moment where it it was enough to

The Abundant Catholic (41:52)
Yeah, would you call that like a breakthrough? Like, of sorts?

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (42:11)
shift my awareness of it, if you will. You know, and so often we think that, you know, when nothing's happening, that God's not listening and he's not doing a thing, fact of matter, he's been working all along on our hearts and...

The Abundant Catholic (42:13)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ Well, that gives me

the image of a seed in the fertile soil. Which brings me back to the pot, when you're like planted. I just want to go back to that later. And I know you have so much more to say, but like the seed underneath the earth, like we don't see it. And it's growing. It's, it's most important formation is happening in the soil in the quiet place. Like that book, The Seed is Quiet.

I read it to my kids the seed is quiet and it's true because If we go digging it up, you know, we'll ruin it. The roots will get Exposed and it won't grow but that breakthrough of coming it just happens overnight I mean you can see those time-lapse videos of the seed breaking open and you see the the Shoot coming out of the earth out of the soil like that right there what you just talked about that visual image

I think really pairs well with that spiritually what's happening and that new life that's coming from this quiet place where the Lord's working, whether we see it or not and it's underground, that yeah, kind of like one day that growth, that new life kind of just appears and does break through, but it's not like, you the sky is open. It's not like you woke up and you're like, Jesus, right?

Fr. Chris Shofner (43:40)
Usually not, usually not. So

because, know, honestly, my experience was when it did, when the breakthrough came, it was just so, it felt so natural and it felt so surreal at the moment. And it was just, there's this calm about it. It was very peaceful. Yeah, absolutely. you know, and scriptures, mean, I mean, to follow up on what you said, mean, scripture is very clear. It's like when there's these constant encouragements, like, you know, wait on the

The Abundant Catholic (43:56)
So peaceful, so peace followed. Wow. Which is the Lord.

Fr. Chris Shofner (44:09)
And that's the passage that comes to mind. And I wish I could remember the actual chapter verse, but, know, wait on the Lord. And, you know, it's not about waiting for our efforts to bear fruit. It's wait on the Lord. And he's going to make it happen. you know, and sometimes what happens is like we need to prepare the soil in a way. We have to, you know, get our hearts and our minds in a place where we're open or disposed to receive that grace.

The Abundant Catholic (44:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (44:36)
And that's what I needed to do throughout this whole process, you know, for everything that's where, you know, the resentments were there and it was just my mind was spiraling into resentment, bitterness, anger, and doubt and uncertainty about who I am and all these things. Like, I needed to be confronted with truth. You know, people had tried to tell me truth. My friend had tried to, you know, reinforce this time and time and time again and thank God he didn't abandon me.

The Abundant Catholic (44:57)
Yes.

Fr. Chris Shofner (45:05)
You know, kept doing, was so faithful to me. I love him so much for that. But you know, that truth, you know, we need that to challenge those false beliefs because the enemy wants to lead us astray. And he doesn't want us to know the truth. But you know, when God wants us to know the truth, he's going to be persistent and he's not going to stop until we finally give in and say, yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (45:19)
soon. ⁓

Fr. Chris Shofner (45:31)
Yeah, I give and I believe, you know, in a sense, you know, I believe Lord help my unbelief, right?

The Abundant Catholic (45:39)
Absolutely. I mean, that's like the cry of the heart in it. But I think that requires humility. And I think for many of us, we battle with pride because again, that false security pride is really a false security. Underneath pride, we find somebody very little and needy ⁓ who really just is in need of love, like deep, deep love in places that often we can't even articulate or put our finger on. And so I just be curious, like in this process of this gentleman who

this relationship became toxic and you were these wounds were just happening in front of you and they were piling on and you came to a place of breaking point interiorly where you're falling into despair like did that poke the wound of your childhood that you had to work through with that forgiveness like what what was stirring with that was opening up that wound was that scar tissue a little like tender because of what was happening

Fr. Chris Shofner (46:29)
So.

absolutely.

And I think this is the thing with anything, especially as adults, what we experience is we sometimes wonder, why am I reacting like this? And am I justified in reacting so strongly? And I've had people challenge me. like, why are you so upset about this? But what it does is it does hit on old wounds.

The Abundant Catholic (46:50)
Hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (46:57)
You know, for me, the wounds were wounds of insecurity about, you know, okay, you know, being a very shy kid growing up, it's like I didn't have a lot of friends and, you know, I had a hard time connecting with people and, you know, it opened up that wound to kind of, you know, get me to start thinking I will never have a friend that loves me. And, you know, and it's...

The Abundant Catholic (47:17)
That unholy vow.

It's like an unholy vow. So Dr. Bob calls it,

Fr. Chris Shofner (47:21)
It is. It is.

you know, and so that that sense of, you know, safety and security in any relationship, you know, that I've had since I was a kid, you know, was opened up in a very explicit way, because I'd never had anyone come right out and tell me, you know, like, you're not a good person. ⁓ And, you know, and this was, you know, one of those first times. And, you know, it was just like, okay, you have confirmed everything that I have believed.

The Abundant Catholic (47:42)
Wow.

Fr. Chris Shofner (47:51)
you know, that I was insecure about since my youth. And it hurt.

The Abundant Catholic (47:54)
Wow. So it just

comes back. It just came back, but bigger because now you have how many years behind you, how many accomplishments, how many efforts to become the person you desire to be. And I think many of us too, we do have a good heart where we want to please the Lord and we want to live our life in alignment with God. And then when we're hit like that, we're like, wait a minute. And it's almost like in those moments, all these false towers we've built are suddenly revealed in front of us and like,

the scales fall from our eyes. If that rings any truth to you, Father, can you speak into that a little bit?

Fr. Chris Shofner (48:29)
Yeah, know, the, you know, the, we try to like, you know, build ourselves up over time. And we, we try to say, know, I'm strong enough to deal with this and, know, ⁓ but when confronted with a strong enough opponent, if you will, you know, an enemy, if you will, it, like you said, it just exposes the facade. And we realized that we built our entire house on sand and

The Abundant Catholic (48:52)
Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (48:55)
And you start to realize that this one person who hurt you is not just one person. What happens is in your heart, in your mind, every single person who has done anything somewhat similar to you, it's just you revisit all of that. And it comes to a point where your heart is overwhelmed and you can know.

The Abundant Catholic (49:13)
Absolutely.

And it like bursts. I mean, that's

that despair. You just literally are like, you can't go on. Right? Yeah. Wow. I can really, I, that just.

That's such a deep place. I know that place personally, Father. And I know you know our story and our listeners know Anthony and I's story and how the Abundant Catholic came to be. And you can find our story in the testimony tab as well. have an e-book that you can download. But it's like this compiling of the wound.

Like just from my own childhood, was healing from childhood, my adolescent development where people weren't nurturing me in the way I needed as a human, right? So there's like deep betrayal there. And I've forgiven many times, right? It's a many time type thing. We can talk about that in a little bit, then the compiling, then I got married and then there were like more things. So then it's just like the Lord was really like, you've really, I guess.

put people on pedestals to be God or to totally fulfill, like for me to totally fulfill me and my dear husband is a broken man. I'm broken, right? But we're beloved.

We're all beloved in that, but like not to put my trust in man, but to put my trust in God alone, like to live that out when the wounds compile is really difficult. It's really difficult to keep going when all you see is this pile of literal crap in your life, in front of you or behind you or around you. Like what is that verse? You know, terror on all sides.

You know, I'm about deer on all sides. I can't even remember what follows. Maybe you know in the verse, know, really there's this desolation and it's like an atomic bomb went off and all you're left with is this desolate desert. Really like you become, you're in this aloneness with yourself and with God where you literally are face to face. I feel like when that rejection wound is there, when there's betrayal there, you're face to face.

Fr. Chris Shofner (50:52)
I don't remember the rest of it, but yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (51:15)
with yourself and your maker and you're going to go, okay, what do we do now? Like, where do we go from here? Because yeah, that house was built on sand. So God, like you're going to rebuild this, right? Or we could turn inward and collapse even more. And this is how we see, you know, what we're seeing in our culture right now with this self obsession and deflection of everything. And you can't get too close to somebody. got, know, if they're not close enough, it's not enough. It's too much, right? The push pull.

mentality where you had these disordered patterns playing out in relationship. You have a lot of wounded people who are just trying to get about life but are experiencing difficulties in relationships and marriages and whatever. So yeah, I don't know if you could speak into that, like that foundation and how God rebuilt that foundation in you through you getting an accompaniment, which is really beautiful.

you had a friend speaking truth to you in such a tender tender time, but even when that shoot comes out of the ground and it's unearthed, it's very fragile. It's very tender, right? Like it's so exposed and it still needs to be fed, it still needs the sunlight, it needs to be nurtured, but you can't really mess around with it. It's not big enough to be like bearing fruit yet, right? So where were you in the journey then when you finally came to the place where you put the ring on?

Fr. Chris Shofner (52:14)
It is.

The Abundant Catholic (52:30)
and you're like, okay, the Lord's rebuilding this foundation of identity. What happened after that?

Fr. Chris Shofner (52:35)
Well, it's interesting. I kind of want to comment on something else you just said there, too. You know, the tending of the fragile person and, you know, the apparition that Jesus, his third appearance to the apostles when they're on the shore, and Jesus is questioning Peter, you know, do you love me? And he says, yes, Lord, I love you. And he says,

The Abundant Catholic (52:54)
Mm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (52:57)
what is it, my, no, tend my lambs, I think he says first. And then he asked him again, he says, feed my sheep, and then tend my sheep. And there's a progression there. It's like, you know, we're kind of like, when we are healing, we're kind of like the little lambs at first, and we need to be tended to. We need people that are going to, you know, guide us and accompany us and speak to us. But as we start to get stronger, we still need that.

The Abundant Catholic (53:03)
Thank

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Fr. Chris Shofner (53:23)
You know, we still need to be fed. We still need to

told that we're worth it, that we're good, that we need people to feed us with their prayers, and we need to be fed through grace, the sacraments and such. And then even after that, we still need to be tended. We still need to be accompanied. You know, we're never going to be not in need of help. Yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (53:41)
Absolutely, right and that's our human nature the neediness.

I mean he says be like children, right? Like we have to be that's why I love st. Teresa It's an elevator to heaven if we're just little in the face of the Lord That ought to be our disposition. So father there's so much and I know We're already like getting to time here. If you want to keep going I'd love to get into some of these these questions Yeah, so You know the church teaches us about forgiveness

Fr. Chris Shofner (54:04)
Absolutely.

The Abundant Catholic (54:10)
And we have this healing sacrament of confession in which we receive God's mercy. And we also have the spiritual works of mercy, which you probably practiced and we all practice when we learn to forgive. But really, forgiveness is a process, right?

and it's powerful, but it takes time like you shared about. So like in the works of mercy, we bear wrongs patiently, we forgive injuries, we admonish the sinner, instruct the ignorant, we pray for another. Can you share more about how our Catholic faith really helps individuals?

Fr. Chris Shofner (54:26)
Absolutely.

The Abundant Catholic (54:43)
Reclaim what's been lost, right? Because you talked about that earlier. Our identity is often lost in the process of these towers we've built, the foundation we've set our lives upon. When somebody hurts us, there's lies that can take root that the Lord really digs up in the forgiveness process like you had shared. So if you could just speak a little bit about the healing sacraments that the church offers and in our Catholic faith as well.

Fr. Chris Shofner (55:09)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, so I mean, the first and foremost of the healing sacraments is reconciliation. And, you know, the the the primary gift we receive in reconciliation is obviously mercy and forgiveness, but it's also the grace to to not fall into sin again, at least not fall into patterns willingly. ⁓ But the interesting thing about, you know, reconciliation is is that, you know, it's it's a

It's a mirror somewhat of our relationship with others as well, but it's imperfect. It's imperfect. ⁓ Well, we are an imperfect reflection of what God can do. So while grace prepares us and it gives us the strength and the disposition to continue to grow and to be healed, it's not the entire work of it.

The Abundant Catholic (55:39)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (55:56)
You know, we still have to go out and we still have to do something to unite God's grace, to make it operative in our life. ⁓ So the one thing that I was thinking about about the sacrament of confession is, you know, we often conflate the idea of forgiveness and the sacrament of reconciliation and think that they're exactly the same thing. Where the fact of the matter is forgiveness and reconciliation are somewhat nuanced and they're different.

The Abundant Catholic (56:03)
right.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (56:24)
you know, forgiveness and mercy that God gives to us and the forgiveness and mercy that we give to others is really about releasing, you know, the debt that's being owed. So when God forgives us, he says, you are no longer, indebted to me. You don't have to pay for this anymore. I forgiven you. It's a free gift. Likewise, when we forgive others.

⁓ It's you know, I release you of the debt of what you owe me for whatever offense has been done reconciliation, however You know whether it's the reconciliation we have with God or with others is about mutually restoring that relationship and in reconciliation we are you through God's grace He restores us to him perfectly and it's it's such a wonderful feeling of freedom and wholeness when when you are restored It's back the word reconciliation

The Abundant Catholic (57:10)
Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (57:12)
literally means coming eyelash to eyelash again. word cilia in Latin means ⁓ eyelash. it's about... It is.

The Abundant Catholic (57:14)
What? that's cool. Wow.

Wow, that's so intimate. so, that's how it ought to be, right? Like

it's so profound. Wow. Just to sit in that for a minute.

Fr. Chris Shofner (57:27)
It's beautiful, but you

You know, it's kind of like, you know, we want that intimacy with God. It's what the life of heaven is all going to be about. It's how we were originally created to be, that life of original innocence. But we lost it through sin. But thanks be to God through the grace of his Son that we can receive that back through forgiveness of sins. But in our daily life, like in our relationship with others,

The Abundant Catholic (57:42)
Thank you.

Fr. Chris Shofner (57:56)
You know, it's, we have to work a lot harder to actually reconcile. um, and when, when we are, when we are hurt by others, when we hurt others, um, there may not be the desire to restore a relationship.

The Abundant Catholic (58:00)
No kidding.

Right, or sometimes it can be so mangled and like the knots there, right?

Fr. Chris Shofner (58:16)
Yeah. And we have to ask ourselves, know, you know, or we have to understand that we can offer forgiveness, you know, to another person. But that doesn't necessarily mean we have to reconcile the relationship. Sometimes the the offense has been so hurtful that it's OK to walk away. You know, it's especially if it's like a, you know, a friend.

a colleague, a neighbor, maybe someone that's, you know, I'm not talking about a spouse necessarily or a close family member, but you know, that's, you know, that we don't see every day. It's okay to say, you know what, I forgive you, but I think it's time to let the relationship kind of.

The Abundant Catholic (58:46)
⁓ Right.

the it's not bearing fruit like the the i think of the parable of the pruning of the tree where you have to cut you have to prune the tree for it to bear fruit right like pull back but then sometimes on the same note like there there's the burning of the branches that the lord speaks of

Fr. Chris Shofner (59:01)
dissolve.

The Abundant Catholic (59:16)
And yeah, I mean, in our story, in Anthony's story, I did have to get, I did have to remove myself for a while. The Lord called me to that. And that's a personal decision between the person. So anyone listening, discerning that is of the utmost importance and docility to the Lord and flexibility to what he's asking you, but also like getting professional help, having others walk with you so that in case there are any personal blinders in that discernment, because it's so easy to be like, this is too hard. I just want to

shut

everybody out. And that can be a form of isolation when we're hurting and we can get too comfortable in that sometimes. So it's really important to keep like a checks and balance system or have something to cross check yourself with so that you know that you're not, you know, the Lord does realign us if we're open to it, but sometimes we can be so stubborn. And I do have to say like, coming from a place where

you know, if there's something that is severely abusive and a lot of the work we do is betrayal recovery. I mean, I've done this personally where there are some women who need to leave and some men who need to leave in order for the Lord to restore them, right? And so that's a whole nother topic for another time. And there are plenty of resources for individuals who are in that state because that kind of forgiveness also, I mean, not that we can measure forgiveness, right? But, but

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:00:26)
moving.

The Abundant Catholic (1:00:35)
when there's the crimes that almost seem unforgivable. And that's kind what I wanted to talk about too. I'm curious because I know there's some misconceptions around forgiveness.

like, what if the person who did the harmful act doesn't deserve forgiveness? Are there unforgivable sins? What does the Catholic Church say about that? When I think of this, I think of St. Josephine Bakita because our daughter Josephine, named her after St. Josephine. She was born on the year of St. Joseph, but also we really like Bakita's story. And I don't know if any of our listeners know her story, but she's amazing. You can just Google her, go on any Catholic website.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:00:49)
Yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (1:01:10)
but she says if I was to meet the slave traders that abducted her so she was abducted when she was a little girl taken away from her family home and sold into slavery she said if I was to meet the slave traders that abducted me and those who tortured me

kneel down to kiss their hands because if it had not been for them, I would have not become a Christian and a religious woman. So at the end of her story she basically becomes a nun and she's you know out of, she's no longer a slave and I feel like that's just so beautiful because unforgiveness can make us a slave when we're living in

than not of it right like in the or mangled up with these parts of ourselves and for Josephine Bakita she chose forgiveness not even knowing who God was at one point in her story so can you talk about that because like really those slave traders were really undeserving what they did to her was awful if you know her story right like she was wounded she was beaten her story's I mean it's so sad but like her light and her hope

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:02:08)
yeah.

The Abundant Catholic (1:02:14)
such a witness to truth of the truth of the Lord and what he can do and what he can turn from literally ashes into his glory. So if you could just talk a little bit about that and how you know for somebody who like doesn't like the act was so great or distorted or disturbed like what does that look like to forgive somebody like that.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:02:34)
Yeah,

so there's a few things I would say to that. First of all, the kind of ⁓ strength and courage it took for Josephine Bakita to do what she did and to...

their feet and such. It was just like, you know, I don't know that most of us, you know, we may not actually have that kind of strength and courage to be able to do that. we do have to be prudent too, because prudence is a virtue. you know, we don't want to be naive and going back into something that is going to be harmful. So we have to balance all of that first and foremost.

The Abundant Catholic (1:02:59)
Right, that's our grace. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:03:15)
You know, I think there's a few things that I would say about this. know, first of all, and I think we mentioned this earlier, I think you said this, it's like no one deserves to be forgiven. mean, mercy is not, you know, entitlement. It's never deserved. you know, especially for some of the, you know, the really grievous acts against us, you know, it's okay to kind of hold fast to the idea, say, you know what? This was absolutely not

right. I mean, this was, you know, this was offensive, this was abusive, this was hurtful, this was, you know, dangerous. And so I, you know, when we, when Jesus was asked, what are the, what's the great commandment? He said, love God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. And he said, the second was love your neighbor as yourself. And sometimes we, we mistake that in the sense of saying, well, I just have to love this person and be, be kind towards them and let them

The Abundant Catholic (1:03:47)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:04:08)
you know, give them a second chance. we forget that we're to love them as we love ourselves. And we have to make sure that, you know, and it's not in a selfish way, it's not, you know, in an egotistical way, but we do have to recognize our own worth first and that, you know, if we're in a situation that, you know, is harmful to us, we have to understand we don't deserve that and we do not put ourselves back into that.

The Abundant Catholic (1:04:10)
Right.

Right, yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:04:34)
Is forgiveness in a sense like that still possible? Absolutely. You know, do we have to put ourselves back into the situation? You know, that's something needs to be worked out like you said.

The Abundant Catholic (1:04:42)
night.

Well, and that's boundaries

too. I mean, that's a huge, that can be a huge part of forgiveness and it can be freeing because the Lord's love has boundaries, right? And that can be really hard. That's a whole nother, again, another like subtopic that we could spend a whole episode on. Yeah. Well, and to not, to not chase disordered love. That was something that in my healing journey, letting, letting people go,

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:04:58)
I was thinking about I was going to go into boundaries next myself. You know, it's it's true.

The Abundant Catholic (1:05:09)
knowing that like that's not my job anymore and almost like remaining there could have been a crutch for that person. the disorder was so great like if I remained I feel like there's this plague of false charity even within the church, even within our Christian brothers and sisters and maybe this speaks true to individuals listening where we just do what's right out of obligation like we're obliged right even in the family line whatever it is but

Jesus says, in the gospel, he says, my family are those who do my will. And I think that's the hardest part of it, is that sometimes his will is not our will. And so there's a huge bridge that Christ has to build in our hearts before we can get to the place where we're not chasing disordered love. And really, that's a place of acceptance and identity. Again, that reordering identity. And yeah, boundaries. So speak into that, please, if you're willing.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:06:03)
Yeah, mean, you know, so, you know, like I said before, you sometimes we do have to let certain relationships kind of, fizzle and let them go. But, other times, especially for those like a spouse, like, children, parents, we, you know, we still want them in our lives because of that relationship that we have. And I run into this, you know, fairly often that's, when there's that one, not often, but, know, from time to time where there might be a very grievous offense and people.

The Abundant Catholic (1:06:23)
I'm sorry, yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:06:27)
will come to me, I'm usually a wife, say, but we're married and I can't just up and walk away from this. Yes, I go home and I feel unseen and such, but we're married. And they want to be faithful to that. And there's a certain nobility to that. But I think that's a perfect opportunity to set clear boundaries.

The Abundant Catholic (1:06:36)
Right.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:06:50)
You know, they're there, boundaries are set, so that we're very clear about what we accept and what we do not. ⁓ And we need boundaries, especially after an offense of any sort, because what they're there for is to help us be in a place where we can continue to build trust.

The Abundant Catholic (1:06:56)
Yeah, it's true. Yeah.

Yes amen. That speaks to me so much in our story. Absolutely.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:07:13)
Yeah, because if we don't have those limits or those boundaries, then we're basically giving permission for, you know, that person to continue doing whatever they're doing. But, you know, to be clear and kind of say, you know what, you're crossing a line here and we've talked about this, or there are consequences. That's the hard part. People don't want to enforce the consequences, but there are consequences if you cross this line. And, but, you know, what that does is it teaches them, you know, what's appropriate, what's not, and it teaches us to love ourselves better.

The Abundant Catholic (1:07:29)
Right.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:07:43)
to have that kind of dignity and recognize our own dignity and value in that relationship. Sometimes we want to play the martyr, which is unfortunate.

The Abundant Catholic (1:07:52)
which

Did

I call it like spiritual narcissism too a little bit? I've been seeing some things about that from Catholic Psych. I mean it's easy to play the victim or say like we can spiritualize things too, right? But you do have a vow, when you're married, so that's where things get a little bit sticky and Anthony and I speak a lot into that when we share testimony, is that we have this grace flowing over our marriage even when we didn't see it or feel it. But boundaries were a huge, huge, huge part of our healing, not just for the offender.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:08:01)
All you ever need.

The Abundant Catholic (1:08:23)
right? Like because it makes sense to have boundaries if somebody's harming you or if there's disordered patterns playing out in the home as protection, right? Because things are really fragile and they're broken and so you have to like kind of like I think of construction workers coming in. I've shared this analogy before in the podcast with putting out the cones to relay the cement foundation like to dig everything up but also for ourselves, boundaries, it gives room for healing to happen.

Truly. And if we're not setting boundaries, it's very difficult for healing to happen. feel like we're not, boundaries and surrender, I feel come hand in hand and also they're just extremely, it's difficult, right? Like we're not gonna sugarcoat it. Setting a boundary is difficult because most people are gonna push back, especially if they're stubborn, especially if there's oppression there or there's some sort of foothold with the enemy where they're stuck in a cycle of addiction or shame.

or abuse, right? There's something going on there. If it's verbal, if it's physical, whatever it is, the enemy is usually there and his grip can be strong. But so when we come in and set a boundary, that right there is like a work of mercy. That right there is an act of surrender, an act of letting go because you're saying, I'm not the one to do this. I'm not the one to heal you.

God the Father can heal you. I can't get in there. So I'm going to set this boundary so that he can restore everything going on here. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:09:48)
Yeah,

that's a beautiful way to understand it. So I love that.

The Abundant Catholic (1:09:52)
Yeah, so but

lastly, I know we got to close out. What about forgiveness of self? Where are you sitting in that? Like, how's that part of your story? If you could just wrap it up and go tie with that.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:10:01)
Yeah,

there's a few things I would say that. you know, one is, you know, we have done so many things when we we hurt others or when others hurt us that, you know, we are not we're never fair to ourselves. ⁓ And we will we will we will, you know, inflict pain upon ourselves for a series of false beliefs that we develop over time. We will, you know, lash out at others, you know, when we, you know,

The Abundant Catholic (1:10:16)
That's true.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:10:28)
uncharitable to them and not kind when we don't forgive them. But for me, I think this applies to the forgiveness of self as well as forgiveness of others. There's a passage in Matthew's gospel, think it is, right before he feeds the 5,000. And it says, ⁓ he looked out at the crowd with great compassion.

The Abundant Catholic (1:10:29)
you

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:10:56)
They were

like sheep without shepherd. And, you know, it's a very powerful, it's very, it's a very quick description of what Jesus saw in the crowd. But when you think about it, it's like, you know, Jesus looked out and saw 5,000 people and he looked into their hearts and he saw everything. He saw their wounds. He saw their fears, their anger, their resentment, their lack of forgiveness, their vices, everything.

and all he did was love. He said, I just, you need to be guided. You need a shepherd. You have no one shepherding you. And, you know, and the implication is, of course, Jesus wants to be their good shepherd. If only they will let him. And, you know, and I think that applies to us because we need to see ourselves in that sense as well. We need to pray for the eyes to see ourselves the way that Jesus does. You know, as a sheep without a shepherd, we need to be able to

The Abundant Catholic (1:11:39)
None.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:11:52)
show ourselves the kind of compassion that we would show to our five-year-old self. I mean, think about when you do anything that you recognize is not the real you. You hold onto these regrets and these... But you know what? I heard this once and it stuck with me. It says, you know what? At the time, you did the best with what you knew, the best with what you had.

The Abundant Catholic (1:11:58)
Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm. It's a part. Yeah.

Thank

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:12:19)
It's like you wouldn't fault a five-year-old for not knowing how to drive. know, so, you know, why would you fault a past version of yourself, you know, who didn't know how to deal with that situation, who didn't have either the emotional resources or the spiritual resources to deal with it? Why would we fault that? And, you know, we can have compassion on ourselves. that's compassion is the, I think, the starting ground.

The Abundant Catholic (1:12:24)
Right, absolutely.

Well, that's.

Thank

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:12:46)
for forgiving self.

The Abundant Catholic (1:12:48)
Absolutely. And I think in those moments, I got all excited there because it makes me think of integration. Like when we actually go to have compassion on ourselves and invite Jesus into a place of pain like that, whether it's present day, 15 years ago, know, yesterday even, like 20 years ago, whenever. I mean, I've personally experienced integration where I'm having compassion on that little six-year-old girl. Well, no wonder she did those things because she was being hurt. And I'm able to see her and I'm able to invite Christ in my mind.

eye into that memory, maybe even where I see her and I'm experiencing almost not like I'm back there again time traveling, but I'm almost like if the symptom is present and if the Lord revealed something that's the current symptom is rooted in that little five-year-old girl or maybe that girl from yesterday like I was just saying, know when we invite him in and we invite the present self as well and this is a lot of deep deep work you can do with

Trauma recovery therapists, mentors, coaches, Catholic therapy, all the things, but when that happens, all those fragmented parts of us start to make sense and they start to come together, but only in Christ can we be truly restored. And that really is, our apostolate is about John 10, 10, and I say almost every episode I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly. And that

Christ, literally resurrection means to be restored. So if we are living in Christ and we are picking up our cross and carrying it and uniting, because I mean really what we're talking about forgiveness is redemptive suffering. In the mystery of it all, it's redemptive suffering. When we choose the great grace and the great gift of forgiveness, Christ gives it to us first and we're able to give it to another. There's something so potent and powerful that can happen in the soul when we

receive those graces and open ourselves up. And by opening ourselves, we're also opening up the pain, right? Like that longing, that lamenting of the soul, like where it's ugly, it's not pretty, where you're despairing even, maybe. But forgiveness really is just freeing and we know that because when we forgive, we're releasing the individual to Christ and therefore we're freeing ourselves from the burden of denial of mercy because that unforgiveness can bear bad fruit in our life.

And I want to end with something too about restoration real quick. But Father, can you just quickly, give us like three or four fruits to walk away with of forgiveness.

So people can know and be hungry for these who are struggling. And you listen to them who are struggling. Like, to get to a where we're waiting on the Lord, we're in the process, and we're waiting. Because you said it took three years. And I've personally, I have my own story. I'm talking 10 years for some of it, right? forgiveness is a multiple time effort. It's not a once and done, but you're saying it came to a place of where you felt peace and you experienced peace. So what are the fruits of that? So peace is one of them. A couple others.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:15:24)
something

Aces,

that's one of them. So along with that piece would, I'm a firm believer that everything within us is integrated. So the fruits are gonna come from a spiritual point of view, it's gonna come from an emotional, intellectual or mental, as well as a physical. So when we're able to forgive, when we're able to release ourselves of that weight, then we're gonna see fruits in every single aspect of.

who we are as a person. you know, the forgiveness, it's... So the peace is one of the great spiritual fruits. You I would say peace, joy, is going be present. You're going to have so much more joy because, you know, your thoughts are now going to be freed of the negativity, you know, the darkness. It's, renew your mind in Christ. And that's what's going to happen when you forgive is your mind is going to be renewed.

The Abundant Catholic (1:16:20)
Okay.

Yeah.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:16:41)
⁓ And I think a third one is your relationship with God himself is going to be renewed in a way that you can't even imagine. ⁓ Like you're going to recognize his love for you in a way that you never have before. And I say this for a very specific reason. know, when we go to confession, for example, and we are forgiven,

I mean, we know what it feels like to have the weight of that guilt and that shame removed. ⁓ But it's also, when you have, say, when you have done something where you've been in need of forgiveness, and even if a friend has come to you and say, you know what, I forgive you and I love you, you know, that does something within the heart where it's just like, how could you?

I don't understand this kind of love that you have for me. So when God forgives us, it's just a gift that we never expected, we never deserve. I mentioned the ring my friends gave me. This is a sign of their love for me that I never expected, and I wear it every day. I almost can burst into tears when I think about these really wonderful people. And it's like the love that God shows us.

The Abundant Catholic (1:17:36)
Right. Forgift. Yeah.

I'm sure.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:18:02)
when he forgives, when he gives us the gift to forgive others, your heart and your soul are just in awe over that. And all you want to do as a result of that is not just say, you, Lord, but you want to give back to him the fruit of what he's done within you. So it changes your life. changes how you walk about the world. It changes how you relate to other people because you want to share that peace and that joy and everything.

The Abundant Catholic (1:18:04)
Thank

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amen.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:18:30)
that got into

your heart with others. it's a release of everything that has weighed you down. And you are so much more devoted to our Lord as a result.

The Abundant Catholic (1:18:33)
Thank

That's so beautiful. And I just had this image of like, you were talking about receiving the fruit and then giving it back to him. And I just thought like, wow, imagine the prolific mini fruits that would come from that, like how much more like he doesn't stop. It's everlasting. It's abounding. Right. And that's why we call ourselves the abundant Catholic, because we can choose to live in his abundance and in his freedom. is a choice, my friends. And so we're rooting for you. We want you to keep living in that abundance. And like Father Chris shared about his ring. I mean, look at the

the love of the Lord made manifest in such a physical, tangible way. Oftentimes we experience these things spiritually in intangible ways, but how God came to you in a tangible way by, I mean, you buried that ring in the dirt and look at the new ring that just appeared through your friends on your finger. mean, just amazing. That alone, I mean, you could probably write that it's really a sign of hope and it's really a sign of the

the mystery of the Lord, but that it's tangible. It's within reach. And so I just want to offer our listeners, just speaking of restoration and what the Lord can do and how God redeems all things to work for our good. We know this from Romans 8.28. He says, I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you.

You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied. And praise the name of the Lord your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame.

So I just want to encourage you that the Lord will restore what has been taken. And that's what our ministry is all about. Reclaim and restore who God made you to be. The enemy, what the enemy worked the Lord will work it for more than you can imagine. So just keep opening up that pain to him and let him restore you in such a deep level that we don't even fully understand in the mystery of the Lord. So Father Chris, we just wanted to say thank you today for coming on. It's just been a pleasure to have you and your story is incredible and I think a great witness.

others who struggle, especially for men. I feel like it's just refreshing to hear women are so often in tune with their feelings, But for men especially, to invite fellow brothers in Christ along the journey of freedom as well, ⁓ we're just so thankful to have you here. So to our listeners, you know where to find us. We have our Instagram.

and our YouTube page. If you're wanting to stop by our website, you're welcome to check out our services. But Father Chris, do you have any last words for our listeners today?

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:21:14)
I would say continue to trust in the Lord and he always wants the best for us. He wants our good. know, second Peter, all things work for good for those who love the Lord. So and as Jesus says, even in Revelation, I make all things new. So he does want to renew our hearts and he will. And it's just like, let's give ourselves to him and trust him and walk that path and don't be afraid to sit with him in the midst because

The Abundant Catholic (1:21:25)
you

Good.

Fr. Chris Shofner (1:21:42)
midst of the pain because he is going to meet us right there in the midst of

The Abundant Catholic (1:21:46)
Yeah amen. That's the meeting place of God. Yeah so thank you all for joining us on the journey to deeper healing, restoration, and freedom. And until next time friends, God bless.