#38: How to Sleep Better: A Doctors Explanation of Insomnia, Faith, and Lasting Rest with Dr. Benjamin Long

If you've been wondering how to sleep better, you're not alone. Sleep problems and insomnia are more common than ever, leaving many people stuck in a frustrating cycle: you're exhausted, you try harder to sleep, your mind races, and bedtime starts to feel like a test you can't pass.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Benjamin Long, a dual board-certified sleep medicine physician and pediatrician, to explore why insomnia has become so widespread—and what actually works when you can't fall asleep, can't stay asleep, or wake up with racing thoughts.

Together, we unpack the real causes of poor sleep in today's world, including our 24/7 culture, constant technology, circadian rhythm disruption, and chronic nervous system stress. Dr. Long explains why light is the most powerful regulator of your internal clock, why sleep hygiene alone often isn't enough for chronic insomnia, and how evidence-based treatments like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I) can help you break the cycle.

We also explore sleep through the lens of faith. Dr. Long describes sleep as a gift from God and an act of embodied trust, drawing from Psalm 127 while challenging the hustle culture that keeps so many of us striving instead of resting. We discuss research connecting faith, meaning, and purpose with better sleep, while also acknowledging how fear, shame, or unhealthy beliefs can sometimes make sleep even more difficult.

Whether you're struggling with insomnia, chronic sleep deprivation, or simply looking for practical ways to sleep better, this conversation offers both scientific insight and biblical encouragement.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why insomnia has become so common
• The hidden factors disrupting your circadian rhythm
• Why your nervous system may be keeping you awake
• What CBT-I is and why it's considered the gold standard for treating insomnia
• Practical strategies you can use tonight to improve your sleep
• How scheduled "worry time" can become a meaningful prayer practice
• Why faith and trust can play an important role in healthy rest

If this episode encourages you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a better night's sleep. Your support helps more people discover healthier rhythms of rest.

Connect with Dr Long: 

https://thewholeheartedmd.com/

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Transcript

How Common Sleep Problems Are

SPEAKER_00 0:00

One of the numbers that sticks in my head is it's somewhere around like 60 to 70 percent of people, just from a survey reporting in the past year, have you had any sleep problems? Most people have reported at least like clinically significant levels of insomnia, which is for a good chunk of time, for a significant portion of the week, you have difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep within a reasonable amount of time.

Welcome And Why Sleep Matters

Gillian 0:25

If your days feel full, but your heart longs for more meaning, you're not alone. Between the screens, the schedules, and the never-ending noise, it's easy to lose your sense of peace. But what if the way forward isn't found in doing more, but in learning to slow down, to simplify, to be still. Welcome to Be Still and Live, a podcast for individuals, couples, and families longing for calm, connection, and a more meaningful way to live. I'm Gillian, speaker, coach, and founder of Sileo Health and Wellness, and I'm here to help you create space for stillness and step into a life that feels whole and good again. Today we're talking about something that affects every aspect of our well-being, yet so many of us struggle with. We're talking about sleep. Whether it's difficult falling asleep, waking up in the middle of the night, racing thoughts, or simply never feeling rested, sleep challenges have become incredibly common. And often the harder we try to force sleep, the more elusive it becomes. My guest today is Dr. Benjamin Long, a dual board-certified sleep medicine physician and pediatrician with a unique perspective on one of the most essential aspects of human health. Dr. Long believes that sleep is not only a medical necessity, but also a gift from God, a daily invitation to surrender control, rest, and trust. In this conversation, we explore the science of sleep, common causes of sleeplessness, practical strategies for improving sleep quality, and the powerful connection between faith and rest. We also discuss anxiety, nighttime worries, and how creating space for God's presence can transform even our most restless nights. If you've ever struggled to quiet your mind at bedtime or wondered why good sleep feels so difficult in today's world, I think you'll find both hope and practical wisdom in this conversation. Let's dive in.

Dr. Long’s Path Into Sleep

Gillian 2:27

Dr. Long, welcome to Be Still Live Podcast. Thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to it.

Gillian 2:35

Me too. You have such a unique background. You're pairing theology with your um background in medicine, specifically sleep medicine. I'd love to learn a little bit more about why you were drawn to sleep medicine specifically.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah, I uh really didn't plan on going into sleep medicine specifically. I my primary training is in pediatrics, and then I um happened to rotate on sleep medicine and it really clicked and I kind of stumbled into it. Um and uh yeah, it's just this unique part of medicine because everyone sleeps. And so because of that, um, I get to engage in all the different medical subspecialties in a way that I don't necessarily get to do as a general pediatrician.

Gillian 3:22

Right. I love that. So it's all about the journey, right? And it seems that as you go through life and you experience different things, your passions surface. And if you go down that path, you learn what you really love to do. So, what is it about sleep medicine that keeps you so motivated to keep doing this work and helping people in this way?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah. I, you know, as I was in my sleep medicine training, I noticed that I was really drawn to insomnia management, um, which is more of a behavioral sleep medicine. So there are psychologists who get um training kind of at the same level that I get to deal specifically with insomnia through an intervention called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And that intervention is the best evidence that we have to that is both efficacious and sustainable to help people with their sleep. Not perfect, you know. Like I always, that's the my refrain for anything I'm talking about with sleep. Like there's no magic pill, there's nothing that's gonna magically kind of get you back to, you know, maybe where your expectations were you should have, but definitely where you can make progress. And so as I was learning more about this intervention, I was also reading the Psalms and found that there was something that was resonating between these two things because the psalmist is also talking about, I think about in Psalm 77, where it says that, you know, God's holding my eyelids open. And I'm like, I have patients who tell me this all the time, you know? And so um, they're navigating their own sleeplessness. And I was like, man, there's something resonating between these two disciplines, but I just didn't have a conceptual framework to really integrate them and bring them together. And so that's what really kind of uh both ignited my passion and also kind of propelled me on this journey of trying to bring these two disciplines together.

Theology That Shapes Medical Practice

Gillian 5:12

I think it's wonderful. I would love to learn more about your background in theology, though, because this is unique. Not all physicians are pairing, I would say many physicians aren't pairing their practice with um theology. Can you tell us what theology is and what your experience is with it, um what your background is, and how it pairs so nicely with what you do as a physician?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah. So theology can be a scary word, I think, for a lot of people, uh it seems kind of nebulous. Uh I, in of course, you ask, you know, 10 different people what's the definition of theology, you're probably gonna get 10 different um answers. So trying to get an accurate description of it, I would say theology is anytime that we are talking about God, especially uh who God is, and then um kind of then the downstream from that, then kind of what are the kind of consequences or repercussions of everything else in light of who God is. And so oftentimes you hear people talking about um, you know, our our vertical relationship, me with God or us with God, and then our horizontal relationships with others. And I think that's really what theology is kind of getting at is if uh how has God revealed himself uh to us? And then since he's revealed himself in such a way, then how am I supposed to then interact with the people around me as well? Um, and so that um I I've grown up uh in church. My dad was a preacher, I'm a preacher's kid, PK. Um, and anytime the church doors were open, I was there um arguably with, you know, some like, ugh, okay, here we go again, you know, not really appreciating it to the full extent as a child. Um but uh yeah, so I've grown up um being in church, reading my Bible, um, and in some ways on my own journey. I think for some people that just inoculates a certain um viewpoint and tradition uh in in your spiritual walk. And so you can become a little bit hardened to uh the gospel and to the Bible. And um, and so my my own journey was I um I knew what I believed, um, but I didn't really have the resources to call upon from my faith how I integrate that into the practice of medicine. Um in my viewpoint to be a good Christian doctor meant to go on medical missions, um, which is not bad. I'm I'm certainly not like saying that I I shouldn't do that or people shouldn't be called to that, because medical missions and the history of that has done many amazing things for people all around the world. Um, but in that perspective, if God is only happy with me if I'm a medical missionary as a doctor, then he's not happy with me most of the time of my career. Um, and so I was like, man, I don't, I don't have uh a theology that was really robust enough for my my daily practice of medicine. Um and I wanted something that was able to meet me there. Um and I had verses and things of like, you know, work according to the Lord and like knowing that like I my work was not just for my boss, but you know, I'm working in light of who I am in Christ. Um, but I didn't have a really robust uh tradition to um have a theology of the practice of medicine. And so I think that was also just my own journey and wanting to study more and read more and see like how does this actually inform um my daily practice of medicine? And so, you know, this which is so ironic because then as you dive into church history, you learn that, you know, the Christian church is is the root of the modern hospital, at least in the West. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I'm reading about like St. Um, what's his name? Basil of Caesarea. Um, so you know, was the founder of kind of like the Basiliad and one of these like early um movements that is connected kind of to the modern hospital where hospitality, you know, where we get our word hospital was given to the stranger and really were they were influenced by the story of the Good Samaritan from Jesus and saw that as a call for caring for um the anyone, for the stranger, for the enemy, um, to the point then, you know, in um church history that uh Julian the Apostate, one of the um emperors, you know, famously said, like, oh, the Christian, you know, like Romans get help from the Romans or Greeks from the Greeks, but then the Christians help everybody, you know, like this is like putting a bad name on everyone else because the Christians are doing such good work because they will take care of anyone, not just their own soldiers or not just the rich, but anyone can come to them and receive that care. Um, so so it's like I started discovering these um different roots within church history and then different things within biblical theology, of you know, seeing my patience as um made in the image of God. And that's probably been one of the most biggest um impacts for me, um, especially when someone's not being nice to me, then then that's when it becomes really important. Um, which is not all the time. I have great patience. So um, but I would say, you know, uh uh in just seeing myself as part of the body of Christ and being the hands and feet of Jesus and in a very practical way, meeting people, you know, like bringing that to people as well. So, so all that to say, uh it definitely has um really shifted how I see my calling and my daily work as a physician.

Gillian 11:41

Yeah, that's so beautiful. And I think it's important to kind of tie everything together. So let's dive into the the issue that we're seeing in our culture right now, which is sleep deprivation. What

Why Sleep Loss Is Rising

Gillian 11:53

do you know the statistics as to how many people are dealing with significant slip issue sleep issues in their life right now?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, I oh it's been a minute since I've looked at it, but one of the numbers that sticks in my head is it's somewhere around like 60 to 70% of people just from a survey reporting in the past year. Have you had any sleep problems? Most people have reported at least like clinically significant levels of insomnia, which is for a good chunk of time, for a significant portion of the week, you have difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep within a reasonable amount of time. So we know that it certainly is uh, you know, pervasive and definitely on the rise.

Gillian 12:37

Yeah. So on that note, it's on the rise. So it must have something to do with our culture and the way modern life looks today. What would you say are some of the main factors that um pull us into this sleep deprivation that we're experiencing?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, I would say one of the big ones is, like you said, within our culture, um, our 24-7 economy uh and demands on um people's bodies. So that way we need to, you know, perpetuate making profit and productivity within all of the different businesses that we find ourselves in or sectors that we find ourselves in. Um, I think that has continued to um grow. You know, you think about, um, I guess I'm kind of like firing some shots here, but you know, you think about like Amazon and how quickly you can get um things where used to, it was like, oh wow, I got I'm able to get something within a couple days. And now, you know, it depending upon where you live, you might be able to get something within hours. And um, even though that uh convenience and efficiency is um helpful in some ways, we have to recognize the like price that we are paying for those delivery people who are working in order to meet that demand. And so I think that's just like a very small um sample of what's going on in a larger way of we have systems that um are requiring more time from us to meet the um demands that really arise from things like productivity and convenience and comfort, which are not necessarily bad things, but when made ultimate things certainly can be um bad things. And so so I think culture is a is a huge part of it. Technology, I think, is huge as well, you know, not just screens, which most people realize that the blue light from screens is harmful for our circadian rhythms, but you go even all the way back to just the invention of the um light bulb and you know, kind of discovering electricity. Um, and that really has shifted people's um sleep patterns as well. One of the most practical things that I tell people if they, you know, feel like I don't know where to start or my life is so chaotic, and I just to change something or add something different feels so overwhelming. One of the best places I tell people to start is just like an hour before bedtime, turn everything off. And not just your phones and screens, but all of the lights in your house or in your bedroom, like make it as much as possible where it's pitch black. And if you don't have like a place for that, then like go sit in your closet and turn and try and get it to as much close to pitch black as possible. Um, and people are sometimes surprised when they actually do that because then they're like, oh yeah, if I sit in pitch black without anything else to occupy me for 30 minutes, I start getting really sleepy. So definitely those two things come to the mind.

Gillian 15:52

Yeah, yeah. I I often think about the fact that we forget we were created for the natural world. And when we're not following the rhythms of nature, then our bodies feel completely out of whack. And I think that's what we're experiencing right now on a global level, is we have this nervous system dysregulation. We are dysregulated because we are no longer flowing with the rhythm of nature. And we are a part of nature, whether we want to accept that or not. So when we are blind to that and we put ourselves in these little silos in our homes where we have like, you know, the lights on, the TV on, the cell phones on, and we are flashing through these um algorithms that are put in front of us, we are pulled out of that natural rhythm. And then we wonder why we can't, you know, just simply step into our sleep space and fall asleep right away. There is a process to this. So I'd love to talk more about the practical ways we fall asleep as we go through this show.

Light, Rhythm, And Nervous System

Gillian 16:56

But um, I'd like to talk a little more about this nervous system um dysregulation that we're experiencing. Would you say that that's a factor?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, certainly. I mean, one of the most robust things when we're talking about your circadian rhythm uh is what we call our the zeitgebers, which is my terrible pronunciation in German of time giver. And um that is influenced by things like my social interaction, just talking with people, my activity levels, my, you know, timing of my diet and when I'm actually eating and my stomach stretching. So that sends a signal, hey, my stomach's stretching and I'm eating, it's time to be awake. Um, but then the strongest of all those things that we've just touched upon is light. And so that light, you know, goes into our eyes, hits a specific part of our brain that kind of then goes to um the part of our brain that's responsible for our internal clock. Um, and and that is um very uh, we know there's a strong genetic disposition for everyone for kind of their own specific rhythm. That's why you hear people talking about I'm a night owl, or that uh elderly people are sometimes called morning larks because their circadian rhythm shifts earlier as they get um older as well. Uh and there are some interventions that we can do to try to adjust that, but disorders of the circadian rhythm are only disorders because we find ourselves in a society that doesn't match what our body is trying to do. And so, exactly like kind of what you've said, sometimes my job as a sleep physician is I'm kind of working against like what someone's body is naturally designed to do. And so um sometimes it's a hard conversation of, hey, maybe the best thing for this is like actually the shift that you are working in right now. That's just not what your body is designed to uh be able to sustain. So trying to shift to a different work schedule is really going to be the the best thing, you know, like all of these other things and tools I have in my tool belt, yeah, they might be able to help to some degree, but it's not necessarily the best thing. Um, and so um certainly if you are then um having all that um light exposure. And then also if you're just thinking about like the content of what you're taking in, I think that really gets to what you're talking about with the um your nervous system and dysregulation. You know, the algorithms can serve up a really funny, cute puppy cat video or something like that. And it can also serve up some really disturbing news footage of something horrible. And then that immediately is going to shift you from your parasympathetic, that rest and digest, into that fight or flight mode. Um, and really when we're thinking about sleep, when you're entering into sleep, we talk about sleep in stages of non-rim one, two, and three, and then rim. So non-rim, your eyes are not moving, rim, your eyes do move. Um, and non-rim, there's there, if I'm being very technical, there is a mixture of parasympathetic and sympathetic kind of waves that come throughout all different stages of sleeps, but predominantly non-rim is a parasympathetic process. And that's how we enter sleep. So you can imagine if I'm in fight or flight, then I'm not in that state that's going to be uh helpful for me to be able to kind of enter into sleep.

Gillian 20:34

Right. Very interesting. And I I feel like when we make this connection and we understand what's actually going on, it helps us to make those changes in our life, those pattern changes, those habit changes that allow us to get into that restful state before we want to actually get some

Sleep As Gift And Surrender

Gillian 20:50

sleep. So you describe sleep as both a medical need and a gift from God. Can you explain what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah. So I really try to um make sure that I'm being true to both disciplines that I've really committed my life to, and that um the science behind sleep and sleep deprivation and what happens to our bodies when we don't get it is all true and it's all real. So making sure that people understand um when they hear narratives that undervalue sleep, a very popular one that is still present, but I don't think as predominant as it was even maybe 20 years ago, is like, oh, that mentality, I'll sleep when I'm dead. You know, like hustle culture and I'm just gonna work super hard. And that's still definitely present. But um, fortunately, uh sleep has had a little bit of a, you know, kind of awareness that has come to the top that people are talking about it more and understanding, oh, this is actually not only like good for me, but in a very utilitarian kind of way, you know, those hustle culture people are kind of like, oh, I actually I will do better or I will perform better if. Sleep as well, too. So, and so that even just like what I've just said here, there is a specific worldview and presuppositions and um, you know, kind of goals of like why I am here that is going to inform how I relate to sleep. With that hustle culture, it's very instrumental, you know, like I biohack or I sleep in order to perform or in order to reach my goals. And so then when you turn to the Bible and try to think more through a Christian worldview, you get a very different perspective on sleep. Um, and so oftentimes I talk about sleep as a gift from Psalm 127, verse 2, where it says he gives to his beloved sleep. Um, and really in that psalm, um it starts off with unless the Lord builds the house, uh, the builder builds in vain, unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman watches in vain. It's in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved sleep. And I think the wisdom that that psalmist is getting at, which is so funny, because then we still have this hustle culture of like, I'm going to get up early. I'm going to like delay bed because I have to hustle. And the Bible says, no, no, no, no. You're like, you're missing the point. All if if that is what you're doing and that's kind of what you're operating from, um, all you're going to yield is that anxious toil. Like you're not actually receiving the gift that God has given you. Um, and in a bigger perspective, unless God is the one who is sustaining things, then like what we're doing is totally in vain. And so it's kind of this reorganization of like, I'm not God. I am a creature, I have limitations. And uh, and in that there is this beautiful gift that's God gives me sleep, uh, to be able to be refreshed, um, to have, you know, a break from my work, to rest, and really to embody trust. I often talk about sleep as embodied trust um because it recognized God, God is in control. You know, like I can have this illusion of control that everything relies on me in order to make things happen. Um, but again, that psalm points to unless the Lord is the one who is, you know, doing that work or and yeah, if God is not doing it, then we are not actually going to be able to yield anything. So, you know, some people might hear that and think, okay, so then I'm just not supposed to do anything. No, you know, like obviously to build a house, you have to build, you know, like to protect the city, you have to watch. So there is still participation, and that is kind of what the Bible invites us into is this um relationship with God, this participation aspect of it. And so from that, already we can see there's a totally different shift of how I view sleep, um, and then how if I'm not getting it, then my attempts to grasp at it and try and get more of it. You know, because if God, if God cares about my sleep and God cares about me, then I can trust him in that. And so instead of seeing this sleepless night as this just just simply a barrier to get over, I can see it as an opportunity to connect with God.

Coaching Program Invitation

Gillian 25:27

Before we get back to today's conversation, I want to speak directly to you for a moment. Over the past several years of working with clients and hosting this podcast, one thing has become incredibly clear. People are overwhelmed. They're exhausted by the pace of modern life, struggling to find peace, clarity, and joy, and longing to deepen their faith and live more intentionally. If that sounds familiar, I want you to know you're not alone. And you don't have to figure it out on your own. If you missed the introduction, I'm Julian, certified holistic health coach, and I created the B Still and Live program to help people move from overwhelming to clarity, from exhaustion to vitality, and from distraction to intentional living. Inside the program, I'll walk you through the exact framework I use to help people slow down where we connect with their soul and create more peace, purpose, and joy in their everyday lives. Don't spend another day waiting for life to slow down on its own. Open the show notes, click the link for Be Still and Live, and enroll in the Self-Live program today. It's time to stop surviving and start creating a life that you love. I look forward to seeing you there. Now, let's get back to today's conversation. Right, that's beautiful. We are created to thrive, and this is a gift. You talk about it as surrender. And um, I really do believe that's what it is. You're you're saying to yourself, to God and the world around you that I need to surrender to this rest. I need this rest to thrive. I need this rest to be able to be efficient in my day, doing the things that I'm passionate about, the things that I'm called to do. So it's this ability to recognize that and then create space for yourself to rest. I think that's the most difficult thing is understanding what you need to do to create that space for rest, how you prepare for the rest, and then how you follow up the rest. Like what I'm talking, I'm talking about morning routines and getting that morning light and starting your day with prayer, devotions, whatever gets you in that right mindset, being grateful for the sleep that you had.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Yeah.

Faith, Meaning, And The Dark Side

Gillian 27:48

I'm curious to know what um faith or trust have to do with the ability to rest, to actually get yourself in that state of mind.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah, you know, the first thing that comes to my mind, there's actually some really interesting research on uh what sociologists just describe as religiosity um and sleep quality. And so uh there seems to be this connection of uh religion as a social determinant of sleep health. Um the hard part when you're studying religion, obviously, is is quantifying things and and um you know actually finding something to measure. So the most common thing that sociologists go to is religious service attendance, um, because that really encapsulates if I'm someone who is committed, especially in modern times, to go weekly to church or more than weekly to church, that requires a lot of me. And I'm probably um moving things around not only within the schedule of my life and external factors, but also it's probably gonna reflect some internal um beliefs and convictions and things of that nature. And so um the body of research has really shown overwhelmingly that there is this, it's a weak effect in that just going to church doesn't fix your sleep. Um, but there is this persistent difference between people who report attending uh church weekly and people who never attend church and reporting this their sleep quality or their sleep duration or things of that factor. Um, and so then further research then is looking at, okay, so if there's some connection here, then what is actually like mediating that? Um, one of those things is that divine control. There has been some research that has looked at specific cognitions or thoughts about that, and they found that people who report, you know, a higher attachment with God or uh attribute to God more control over things, that they tend to report also better sleep quality. Um and then there's actually some newer research that also just looks at meaning and purpose, and that um when they looked at data, they saw this connection between sleep quality and religious service attendance, uh, and they found that it seemed that it was the religion giving people this meaning and purpose that really mediated that connection with the improved sleep quality, to the point that then if they tried to look at it separate from that, then um that connection no longer existed. So, you know, in those researchers' minds, they were saying, okay, well, then the benefit from this is that it gives you religion is a common pathway to meaning and purpose in life, which is going to naturally portend better sleep. Um and so uh all that I would say, you know, kind of points to there are these direct relationships with healthier sleep. But then they've also have been some researchers who've talked about indirect things that typically religious people also, you know, um don't view drunkenness as something that is um, you know, encouraged or drug use or things of that nature. So if you have this holy view of the body and treating that in a different way, that can also have these indirect impacts on sleep as well. So um definitely there seems to be um some component to all of those things. But anytime I'm talking about those positive findings, I always want to make sure that I'm also reviewing what's called the dark side of religion as well. And really unfortunately, what the research has found is there are um areas within religious experience that also lead to poor sleep. Um, some of that research looked at there was a cohort of Chinese Christians who they followed over uh three years, I believe. And they found that there is a cohort who had worse sleep and then upon exiting their faith, then had better sleep. Um, when they tried to look at anxiety and depression, these other kind of mood things, that was a little bit more um scattered and that some people improved, some people worsened, some people were the same. Um, but what they did find was when they were looking at sleep, there was this cohort that seemed to improve after they left their faith. Um and then uh there's a small study that looked at um people specifically who have um experienced trauma and PTSD, and that actually high, so above average religious behaviors was associated with mediating this connection between um uh experiencing trauma and alcohol use. Um and so the researchers within that paper argued, you know, maybe they're in a setting that um shames alcohol use. And so, you know, you're not able to, you know, speak about that. So you do that kind of uh in hiding. Um, so some kind of like internalized shame. Um, the problem with that uh paper, that conclusion by itself is they don't really necessarily have the backup from the data to make that conclusion uh that association versus causation. So you also could say the flip side, it may be that these uh people who've experienced trauma and have really heavy alcohol use are turning to high religious behaviors to try to cope. Um, so that could also be a plausible explanation from it. So, but all that to say we know that unfortunately religion is also something where uh it can worsen your sleep as well. And so it is a matter of um then saying, in my perspective, like, okay, then what do we do about it? You know, like these people who are experiencing poor sleep that's specifically coming from religion, in my own practice, you know, there are times because I get a spiritual history and ask the question, and then I find out, oh, this person is struggling with this specific belief that they've received from their church. Um, and that is the thing that seems to be the root of what's causing their sleep issues right now. Um and so uh if you don't ask the question and you don't aren't curious about it, um, it's usually not important. But then when it is, then you miss it if you're not asking the question.

CBT-I Guardrails For Sleepless Nights

Gillian 34:16

Well, let's use that as an opportunity to shift to the habits and the patterns that we can integrate into our life that improve our quality of sleep.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, if you're experiencing sleeplessness, um, then really the biggest thing is what we have in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia that's very simple, is what's called the stimulus control instructions, uh, which I adapt in my book and call them the sleepless night rules. And essentially you can think of them as just like guardrails in order to help the bed be a place for sleep and not this place of frustrated um being awake. And so those rules are um ceasing before bed and waiting to feel sleepy. Um and so then if you lie down and you can't fall asleep, then rise from bed and then connect with God and wait to feel sleepy. Step four is just repeating steps two and three. You're you know, uh rising from bed and then connecting with God, waiting to feel sleepy, laying back down. If you can't fall asleep, then you kind of repeat that pattern. And then step five is um resisting sleeping in and taking naps, uh, which is sometimes where I lose people because they're like, Dr. Long, I love my naps. What are you doing? Why are you trying to take away my naps? Um, but I tell people I say resist for a reason. You know, I'm not saying like never do them. And that's actually how I um kind of designed my book to center around those rules so that way if you're having difficulty with one um step of those, then you can kind of like jump into them. And so, really, those are a good guardrail for anyone who's experiencing sleeplessness, whether this has been a problem that I've had for years or it's uh uh just an occasional nuisance for me. You can always kind of come back to those things, and that really gets at the root of what perpetuates people's um sleep. Often people are surprised when I don't start with sleep hygiene. So that's the things when you're talking about um the um turning off the screens or the temperature of the room or you know, other factors kind of like that. Certainly they can help, but the root of what perpetuates people's insomnia tends to be the kind of not having those guardrails um and um having really just like poor sleep in the bed, and then our mind associating that place with a place of frustration and being awake, um, and then sleeping in or taking long naps, preventing us from being able to fall asleep that night or the next night after that.

Stress, Anxiety, And Sleep Aids

Gillian 36:51

Right. Yes, and the experience that I had with insomnia, I know that it was rooted in stress and anxiety, which was affecting my nervous system. And I learned later that it was my cortisol levels that had spiked. And it was that internal state that was preventing me from resting, or I would fall asleep for 20 minutes, I'd get deep into a dream, I would feel restful, and then I would wake up out of nowhere 20 minutes into my sleep and not be able to fall asleep then. And then you it creates this cycle of anxiety and stress and anxiety and stress. So it was that internal state that seemed to be the issue that wasn't allowing my body to calm down.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah, for sure. Like, and that's you know, everything that I just said, those that's like a good guardrail. But then if you think about in that same analogy, if I am, you know, uh have this stressor in my life or this anxiety or something that's like not controlled, I can have all the best guardrails, but then I'm still like speeding down the road, just totally out of control, you know, kind of a thing. Um, so then you're not going to get the uh good sleep if you are not um addressing those root things kind of underneath it. And that's why so often people expect when they come to me as a sleep physician that I'm gonna give them a pill. The problem is sleep pills aren't a long-term fix. Um, I tell people they're called sleep aids for a reason, just like a band-aid. The band-aid doesn't actually fix a cut, your body has to heal itself and it allows that to, you know, stop the bleeding and to prevent any kind of new infection. So it's it's a tool that's helpful for your body to do the work. And so, in the same way, I tell people, you know, uh, sleep aids have their place and they can be helpful in certain situations. But if you are in a stressful career or you have filled up your life with so many things that you don't even have margin to be able to cease from your day and have a consistent bedtime and wake time, or night, that list can kind of go on. Um, then I'm not gonna be able to fix things. We're gonna be able to kind of tweak things, but not at the same level as you individually kind of dealing with the stressors in your life. And people hate to hear that because that is harder, it takes more work, it's not a simple fix. And I agree, like I would love it if I could just like wave a magic wand and be like, boom, you sleep. Um, but unfortunately that's not the case.

Gillian 39:22

Yeah, absolutely not. And and I mean, I resonate with that because the work that I do, people are usually at that place of desperation when they want to work with me and go through my program because you want to believe that it's not all these issues, that you know, the lack of sleep or the chronic anxiety, the chronic stress aren't related to the daily decisions you make, the daily thoughts that you have. But when you're in that place of desperation, you start to be open to these remedies or these simple practices that you can integrate into your life to heal. So when somebody is dealing with insomnia, the the thing that I do with them is go through their life. What does your life look like? What is the mental load you're carrying? Because if you're, if you're just simply carrying too much and you don't have these opportunities to rest within your day, then how can you expect yourself to rest at night even when you're exhausted? We're not able to turn off our brain because we've never, we we're not practicing it throughout the day. And I always talk to people about these micro opportunities that we have to rest throughout the day. Those, those micro opportunities are now being replaced with the opportunity to go on our phone and to scroll and to busy our mind. We're training our mind to stay alert and to stay stimulated. But then when we go and rest, we expect our brain to be able to shift to something completely different. So when you have that different approach and that that different mindset, I believe it opens you up to this opportunity to practice rest throughout your day and have that rhythm of rest baked in. So your body recognizes it when you want to lay down and sleep at night.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, I I was literally just like writing that down when you were saying that you know, training our minds to be more vigilant in a negative way. And that's so interesting because when you go back to kind of the early Christian church, um that there was this emphasis on watching and being vigilant, um, but in a way that one was expecting Christ's return, but really I think also was this watching over um your entire life that we've we've lost a little bit in our our modern kind of church setting. Um, and so I think that's that really is such a good word for us is that we we are exchanging our vigilance for this consumer culture that you know wants our attention and wants our um you know eyes still on the phone and screens and all this kind of stuff.

Stillness As A Daily Rhythm

Gillian 42:05

Yeah. Well, that's that's the reason this is this podcast is called Be Still and Live, is because I believe that we were created for that relationship with God. And we experience that relationship through stillness. Stillness used to be naturally baked into our day. We would walk everywhere. We would go and collect our own food, harvest our own food. We would have to go and walk to the river to get water for the day. We didn't have these devices that were constantly pumping music and podcasts and everything into our ears. We had these moments. We were we were connecting with nature. We we heard the birds, all of that calmed our nervous system. It was a natural part of our daily rhythm. But now in the modern world, we've lost space for that unless we're being incredibly intentional about creating space for stillness throughout our day and in that rhythm. So that's why I'm so passionate about stillness, because I do believe it brings us to the state of being that we were created for. And we can't fight that. It's like telling the engineer, nope, that's not how you built this. And they're like, Well, yeah, actually it is. Here's the handbook. I'm gonna show you. You know, we we try to we try to resist what is and will always be. And I really believe that's why we're struggling so much, is we are being called back to our creator who shows us, he shows us how we were meant to live. He God wants us to thrive. I really believe that. And so many of us are just simply scraping by and surviving in a world where we have more conveniences than we've ever had. So there's something wrong with that picture. So we have this freedom to choose the life that we want. And that's kind of where we're at right now is okay, what are we gonna choose? More chaos, or are we gonna choose the stillness that allows us to really embrace. The life that's right in front of us.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

That's so good. Yeah.

Gillian 44:06

Well, thank you. That is why I'm so passionate about the work that I do because I it is, I have a background in theology. I did my master's in theology, but my undergrad was in health and phys ed. I wanted to teach young kids to understand how their body worked and to stay healthy and well. But there was always that missing piece. It goes deeper than that. We were created to thrive. We were created to be healthy and well. And when you understand this as your identity, then it shifts everything.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Yeah.

Gillian 44:36

When you understand that this is this is how you were built. And you know, we're we're we're meant to be stewards of our body. And when we aren't, that's a choice. When we aren't, we start to crumble. And sleep is one of those things that that starts to crumble sometimes first. And um often there's a lot of confusion as to why it's happening. But when you look at lifestyle, it all kind of leads to disrupted sleep.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

For sure.

Scheduled Worry Time That Works

Gillian 45:03

Yeah. So the work you do is is is incredibly important. Um so for somebody who's dealing with stress and anxiety, I'm I'm assuming you see that a lot in your work. What is the what is the advice you give to them?

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, I'd say probably my uh people who report, I can't turn off my mind. Um, they're worrying about the conversation they had with their coworker from the day, or they're worried about their to-do list, or they're worried about what's going to happen tomorrow. That's usually one of the most common barriers I see to being able to fall asleep. Um and so surprisingly, for some of those people, one of the things I recommend is actually scheduling their worry time, which sounds counterintuitive. Oh, I love this. Yeah. Tell me more. Right. They're like, why do you want me to worry? And it's like, well, I'm not uh uh wanting you to worry. You're already worrying all the time and you can't stop it. What scheduling worry time does is it puts it into a box. And so you, I tell people do it before um bedtime and not in your bedroom as well. Um, and then you, when you're in your worry time, write down everything that you are worried about. Don't try to necessarily like challenge your thoughts or do anything with them. When you're first starting with this, literally just get it all down on a page. And I tell people, this is gonna get worse before it gets better. Most of the time, people come back to me and they're like, Dr. Long, I'm worrying more, you know, because I had the stuff that I was worrying about. And now I'm worrying about things that, you know, I wasn't even thinking about before. And I'm like, that's okay. It's going to, you know, like when you're um, you know, looking for something, you're gonna be able to find it. So in the same way, if I'm focused on my worries, I'm gonna be able to find more worries. But eventually you get to the bottom of the barrel. And um then kind of once you've kind of gone through all of these things that are worrying me, then that's when you can kind of go back and start maybe challenging some of those things. So one, you actually start to move more towards a kind of solution based, or you, you know, can challenge, okay, is this realistic, you know, like how in tune with, you know, what has actually happened, is this actually going to uh, you know, be helpful uh to continue to worry about? But then the other thing that it does is I tell people if you're outside of worry time, then you're training your mind to say, I'll worry about that tomorrow at worry time. And again, this is not magic. And same thing, you are um training yourself to then not be a person who is going to have to kind of keep worrying about things and have that kind of cycle going. And of course, then I inevitably have the conversation. Well, what if I forget about the thing that I was worrying about? And I'm like, then that's okay, because then it's really not that important. And then you're getting into this, you know, continued cycle of like, I'm gonna forget it. So now I'm worrying about forgetting, and now I'm, you know, kind of continuing that way too. And so then I tell people the biggest thing for this is practicing it daily and doing it for a full minimum four weeks. Um, really, I feel like most people actually start to see a difference at about the two-week mark. Um, but I I put that goalpost a little bit farther ahead to say, like, this is when we can actually say whether or not it is working. And oftentimes people come back to me after a week or two and they're like, it's not working. Um, I had X, Y, or Z happen in my life and I wasn't able to continue practicing it. And I'm like, hey, that is okay. Like life happens and there are stressors and there are things that we're going to have to deal with. But before we're gonna move on from here, we're not gonna call this a failure until we've actually tried it for a full four weeks. You do this every single day for a full four weeks, and you come back and you're like, I have not noticed any difference in how my mind is worrying about things, then we can kind of continue to something else. But let's kind of, you know, focus here because what we are doing takes time because in some ways you can think about it as rewiring your brain to I am limiting my worry to a specific time of the day. So that way my I can actually rest. When I say, I'll think about that at worry time, and I'm training my mind to actually then let that go.

Gillian 49:23

That's a great approach. I really love that. I mean, I I I teach gratitude practice, but I feel like you're recognizing and acknowledging, and I think that people want to be heard, right? Well, what do I do with all the stress and anxiety then? Well, just put it into the same box that you put your gratitude practice into. You practice gratitude in the morning, and then maybe you have your worry practice in the afternoon, or like you said, before you go to bed, but before you go up to your bedroom. I I like that um you're kind of creating space and being very intentional about allowing yourself to be human. We can't like I talk about toxic gratitude. I think that that's a thing where you know, I experienced that when my son was really sick when he was firstborn. And um, I kept forcing myself to be grateful for the fact that he was still alive and that, you know, in the end he made it through. But I didn't allow myself to feel the anxiety that I had dealt with and, you know, the the nervous system shift that I had experienced, but wasn't acknowledging because I wasn't creating space for that. And I think that can be detrimental as well. So I love, I love that you're creating space for that and and giving people that window where it's like, all right, just kick the can a little bit. You're you're gonna allow yourself to be human and think about it at some point, but you don't want it to deprive you of every, you know, moment that's right in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Yeah. Can I add something too is just that absolutely the and then the other thing, really coming from like a Christian worldview, is then a lot of times that worry time then can also, in some ways, kind of turn into a prayer journal as well. And that some some of the worries, like you said, like some of my worries are real. And I'm not over inflating them, I'm not catastrophizing. Like I have a loved one in the hospital who might die. And there is, you know, like no nothing I can do about that. And so when you're faced with those worries, then it's like God doesn't want us to to bypass that or to ignore that or, you know, try to um, you know, unfortunately, we know all those people who um are like, oh, I'm just like claiming God's grace and I'm just gonna be thankful. And, you know, like they, you know, want that without walking that road that we see in the Psalms of people really sitting in their grief and sitting in their sorrow and expressing that to God and expressing like, I'm angry that, you know, this is happening to my child or my loved one or something like that. Like, and we think for some reason that, you know, like either God can't handle that or it's disrespectful, or whatever kind of reason we put on that. And so I think that's the other thing that I would encourage someone as they're on that journey with their worry time is that they can then, you know, those things that are do seem reasonable, they can take that to God. And then your life doesn't stop after, you know, doing that for a month or two months or things like that. So then having that written down also makes a record too. So then new worries are gonna come. You're gonna have new things to put onto your worry time, but then the loved one is out of the hospital, or you know, this happened at your job, and you know, this thing that you're worried about is now better. And so then you can start moving into gratitude in a real constructive way, like, oh my gosh, God, I was so worried about these things. And this is how you moved in that moment, you know. And then on the flip side, sometimes the things that we are worried about, the bad thing does happen. And so we have to have a theology that is going to be able to grapple with when those bad things happen and when I suffer and when I'm in pain, and not uh ignore that. And so I think that's from a Christian worldview, then that's how we can take worry time to a different place, different from how I am in kind of like a secular medical context where I'm like, oh, you're offloading all of this stuff from your brain, which is true. And it's true that it's helpful, but then the philosophical worldview, um, you know, social imaginary of this is just all that there is, and it's just chaos when I see the world, and um, there's no higher power for me to talk to or connect with or have a relationship, like then the worry time stops there. And I can't do anything beyond that. And yet the Christian faith gives us resources to call upon to actually do something with those worries.

Sleep Habits Journal And Support

Gillian 53:56

Very good. I these are all fantastic insights, Dr. Long. I would love to give you the opportunity to share a little more about what you've put out into the world. You've written a book that that you would like to promote and share. And um anything else you would like to add?

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah. So if you're interested, it's called Sleep Habits Journal Practices, Prayers, and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights. You can go to sleephabitsjournal.com and that'll list all of the different retailers that are selling it. If you're like, I really want uh, you know, like physical copy at a bookstore, Barnes and Noble is probably gonna be your best bet. And if you're somewhere between Texas and Georgia on a road trip, then there might be some signed copies across different Barnes Noble there too. So um and really, you know, I tell people, um, this is for anyone who's experiencing sleeplessness. And I did the math at some point, but if you like take an average size um church, then it's like something like one in um oh gosh, I've already forgotten. It's like one in three people are experiencing some amount of sleeplessness. So even if you yourself are not experiencing sleep problems, there's probably someone within your circle who's experiencing that. So, you know, I encourage people to um, you know, buy this as a gift to give to someone who is kind of experiencing that. Um, and even considering like walking with that person through it, because there are practices and things like that that are very helpful if sleep is a problem that I'm um consistently having a difficult time with. But if it's my spouse and I have totally fine sleep, then that might be something that you could really um help with your spouse's journey because um sleeplessness is so isolating. You can feel so alone in it. And that's one of the things that I kind of point to is that God is always present with you. And that's why the sleepless night is ripe with connection with God that can really shift your experience of it. Um, but we can be the hands and feet of Christ in a very tangible way to people who are experiencing sleeplessness. And so that can be your real ministry to somebody if you're like, hey, I know you're having a struggle. Here's your copy of this journal. I'll go through some of the devotions and stuff with you, and we can kind of talk about it or work through it, or I can hold you accountable if you're wanting to try and make progress or things of that nature. So, really, it's designed to be a journal that you engage with that grows with you and really is uh to just help you get one step further down this journey.

Gillian 56:37

Wonderful. Sounds like a fascinating book. I think I'm gonna get it myself and use some of the practices with my clients. And uh I I so appreciate you being here today, sharing your wisdom and combining these two worlds that um I believe should always kind of be merged together if we're going to truly understand ourselves and how we can fully thrive in life. So I uh yeah, I hope this conversation is helpful to many people. And uh I look forward to seeing your work along the way.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is a great conversation.

Gillian 57:13

You're very welcome.

Key Takeaways And Closing

Gillian 57:16

Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation with Dr. Long. One of the ideas that stayed with me is the reminder that sleep isn't something we earn through productivity or effort. It's a gift, a daily opportunity to release what we can't control and trust that God is at work even while we rest. In a culture that celebrates busyness and constant striving, choosing rest can feel surprisingly countercultural. Yet our bodies, minds, and spirits were designed to need it. I hope today's conversation leaves you feeling encouraged, whether you're navigating chronic sleep struggles or simply looking to create healthier rhythms in your life. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Long's work and his book, be sure to check out the links in the show notes. And if this episode resonated with you, please consider sharing it with a friend, subscribing to the podcast, or leaving a review. It helps more people discover these conversations and join our growing community. And as always, thank you so much for being here. Until next time, may you find courage to slow down, the wisdom to embrace rest and the peace that comes from trusting God with what tomorrow holds. Thank you for listening to Be Still and Live. As always, my hope is that this conversation offered you a little more space. Space to breathe, to listen, and to come home to what matters most. If this episode resonated with you, I invite you to subscribe to the show and consider sharing it with someone who could use a little more space or clarity right now. That simple act helps this work reach the people who need it most. If you're ready for a gentle next step, you can begin with Fog to Freedom in the show notes or at SaleoCoaching.com. Until next time, be still and live.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

This podcast is produced, mixed, and edited by Cardinal Studio. For more information about how to start your own podcast, please visit www.cardinalstudio.co or email Mike at mike at cardinalstudio.co. You can also find the details in the show notes.