How Secrets, Separation, and Surrender Restored Our Marriage. -Interview with Joe & Chana Navarro

“Our separation wasn't the end of our marriage. It became the wake-up call that saved it…”

What happens when a couple who looks successful on the outside is quietly falling apart behind closed doors? 

In this powerful conversation, Joe and Chana Navarro share how infidelity, pornography, financial loss, isolation, separation, and broken trust nearly ended their marriage, and how God restored what seemed impossible to repair. 

Their story is a reminder that no marriage is beyond redemption when two people are willing to heal, grow, and allow Jesus to have the final say.

👉 Hit subscribe and join us weekly as we talk all things marriage, faith, family, and healing.

Support and coaching links:

The Wise Wives Intensive -  Get coached by Janelle

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The Husbands of Valor Intensive - Get coached by Mike

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Connect with Joe and Chana:

Joe: https://www.facebook.com/joe.navarro.73

Chana: https://www.facebook.com/chananavarro3

Marriage Retreat (August 27th - 29th 2026 - Portland, OR):

https://subspla.sh/xhtcvrg

Janelle’s #1 course for the wife that wants to save her marriage: 

https://checkout.marriageignite.com/unwavering-wife/?sl=applepod

Mike’s #1 course for the Husband that wants to save his marriage:

https://checkout.marriageignite.com/products/anchored-husband?sl=applepod

Our In-Home, Private Marriage Intensive Here in Arizona (The ARK) for Couples:

https://checkout.marriageignite.com/products/ark-couples?sl=applepod

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

All right. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Marriage Ignite podcast with Mike and Janelle Friedrich. And we have some of our dear friends, Joe and Shana Navarra, with us to share their testimony and their story. And, you know, we've known this couple for gosh over 10 years. And, you know, we've seen them, we've we've done business with them, we've known them personally, we've worked with them in their marriage. And you guys, they have an incredible turnaround comeback story that I think will encourage those of you that are watching, whether you're in a season right now where you're feeling like things are kind of getting off track or whether they're way off track and maybe you're in a season of separation. I want you guys to listen in and lean in because this diet this couple is dynamic and they've come through the wilderness. And again, I think this story will encourage you. And so I'm going to go ahead and we'll just jump right in unless there's anything else that you want to add. But for those of you that don't know you, tell us who you are, how long you've been married, and um, you know, before things kind of fell apart, you know, how would you describe your marriage from the outside looking in? Go ahead, baby. You go first.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah. Is that because you want me to say how many years we've been married? Sure. No, so we're Joe and Shaina, um, and we've been married. It'll be 16 years this July, which is so amazing. Um, we have six wonderful children. Um, the oldest is my bonus baby that I got whenever Joe and I got married. Um, Lainey, she's 18. And then together, Joe and I have Kinley, who's 15, Lily is 11, Charlie's nine, Hannah is four, and Luke is one. So we definitely have a full house. Um, God has blessed us so much. Um, but yeah, so for us, you know, we definitely did not start our relationship, our marriage the way that God intends it. And so sometimes I look back to, you know, that beginning and I look at all the miracles that God has done in our life. But, you know, whenever we first started in that business that we did together, you know, we were definitely, you know, not in a good place in our marriage. But God blessed us with success in that business, which was what we needed for, you know, our finances. But what we realized was we got to a point where we had the success, but then that's where we found our identity. We looked like we had it all together, things were great, but behind, you know, closed doors, that was the exact opposite. And so we really, I know for me personally, I took on an identity in that business that really wasn't who God had made me to be.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

You know, the night we met you guys was a significant night in our marriage because we had just spoken on a stage of 20,000 people, and we earned an award, uh, an award and uh a sales award, and we walked into a church and everyone was high-fiving us, high-fiving us. Whoa, you're amazing, you're amazing. But that was in 2013, and I was actually I started to get discipled and didn't grow up in a Christian home, and uh, you know, met uh a mentor and he started mentoring me and discipling me. And it's the first person who I confessed to that I had an affair. And so he says, Hey, you know, I'm gonna disciple you, and I want you to be honest with your wife. You know, you need to tell her the truth. Well, for about seven months, I I didn't say a word to Shayna, not a word because I was afraid that she would leave me. Um, but I knew that if I wanted to get this torment out, I mean, I was tormented by jealousy, fear. I mean, I I would just shoot arrows at Shayna. We'd be driving down the road, and a thought would come in about Shayna with you know previous boyfriends or and I would just spew venom at her, knowing that it was because of my sin and my secrets that I had. But Mike, the night I met you in August of 2013, Christian Claudio, you know, my brother in Christ, who was discipling me, and this is why it's so powerful to have brothers in Christ, because like Jonathan and David had like a healthy soul tie. He pulled me in that night, and everyone was giving me high fives outside. You know, congratulations, he pulled me in, and I'll never forget this encounter, guys. He immediately started crying. And he said, Joe, he said, You're ripping me up inside. And then he said these words. He said, Joe, you have a destiny. And I knew what he was talking about. He said, Joe, you've got to confess. He said, You've got to tell your wife the truth. So we went from a high of you being on stage, and then within 24 hours, I I woke up and I told Shana, I said, Hey honey, I have something to tell you. And then I just began to confess everything. And this amazing woman forgave me. She forgave me. Um, and that's when I got set free. But then Shana had to walk through everything I just unloaded on her. But she so gracefully did. When she forgave me, she never brought it up again, Janelle. She never threw it in my face, she forgave me. And then we were we were cruising for a season, you know. That was when we started to grow in our spiritual life. And uh for a span of six or five or six years, we were doing pretty strong in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah. And when it came to that forgiveness, it was literally a decision, and it was that moment where I knew like God's forgiven me. And so I know that if I want to truly move forward in this marriage, like that's where the forgiveness was so key. And, you know, for us though, too, when we we took a move, we moved to Florida, and the one mistake we made when we moved was we did not have spiritual family. And so it's so key, like Joe was saying, you've got to be surrounded with like-minded individuals that are constantly calling you up higher, encouraging you, pouring into your marriage, pouring into your family. And so after going on, you know, this few years of doing amazing and doing ministry together, getting out of that environment of spiritual family, we found ourselves kind of in that that rut again. And instead of realizing, okay, this is a season that we need to work through and pray through and grow through, we started pointing fingers at each other. And that was the worst thing that we could have done was you're doing this, no, you're doing that, instead of looking at ourselves and truly seeing like what we could do to be better.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

And you know, there's cause and effect. You know, I I was free of pornography for about five years. But then when I lose spiritual family, you get isolated, you start being the victim. You know, I start, I got I got back into pornography. And then you think it's not a big deal. I don't have to tell anyone. You lose accountability, you don't have someone walking alongside of you. You start, you know, speaking word curses over your wife. You start saying things like divorce, you start speaking that, and you literally speak it into existence, which is what led to our separation. I I was saying things, I'll never forget the day, Mike and Janelle, where it was a it was a loving spanking from the Lord because I have spoken things like, well, we're just gonna get a divorce, where we're let's just separate. And I remember the day that Shanna stood her ground and we did separate. It was like the Lord said, Joe, this is what you spoke.

SPEAKER_05 7:33

Wow. Why are you surprised? Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

This is what you spoke. You spoke this into existence. I'm like, oh Lord. And I spoke it. Well, I'm just gonna move out. Well, I'm just gonna, you guys, you say those things enough. You're gonna eat the fruit of what you're speaking. You're gonna, it's you're literally speaking it into existence. I'll never forget that day. I was in Stephenville, Texas at a friend's house, sleeping on a s in a friend's camper. Laura said, Joe, you spoke this. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Wow. So there's there's a lot to unpack there, and I wish I had time to do that, do all of it, but I'm gonna back up a little min because on the outside, looking in, you guys were kind of at the top of the mountain. Everyone is like, wow, you're on stage, you guys look good. There's a lot of people that are afraid to actually reach out for help because they don't want the stigma of like, oh, what are people gonna think? What are people gonna say if we reach out for help? And I think especially for men have a little bar have a harder time reaching out because they feel it's a sense of weakness if they have to ask somebody else for help in their marriage. Like if if they're a man, they should just have this all figured out. Like, why do they need to reach out for help? And Joe, I I never one thing I've always noticed about you is that you you've always been one of the more most hungry guys and you too, Shana, of just you guys always want to grow. And but there was something else you said about the secrets, the secrets that we we have will kill us. And you you could feel that stirring in you when your you know your mentor at that time shared something with you and a lot of guys too that are carrying secrets or wives that are watching this right now. And I mean, I had a secret that I held in for 14 years, and so I know what that that feeling of like, what's the point of saying something now? It's just gonna hurt her. What's the point? But you knew deep down. I'm guessing, Joe, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but there was something in you that said, No, I can't go to my grave with this. What what was that? Because I I I'm bringing you back to this point because I know there's a lot of people that are holding secrets in their marriage, and those secrets are gonna kill it.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

Yeah, well, you actually have a book right behind you, Freedom, that Danny McDaniel wrote, and we were going to church at Bethel Dallas, and Danny had a praise God for a church that believed in the whole Bible and talked about spiritual freedom and deliverance. And when you start understanding how Satan operates, you give him legal access when you keep it in the dark because he uses that against you and he's able to torment you. And so, yeah, I I I believe I was I I was going to heaven if I didn't tell Shana, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, born again, and but I still wasn't sanctified, I still wasn't cleansed, and so it was through that understanding of the word and uh you know of why I was still tormented. I mean that that wasn't you're still you're telling me I'm how am I a born-again believer, but I'm still having thoughts and visions of my wife with other men throughout, you know, that that's not normal. That's not heaven on earth. But I was blaming her. This is why it's so important too, because until I started reading books like Danny's, then I realized, oh, this is why I'm oppressed, because I'm giving Satan legal access. And so it was that experiencing freedom class where I realized there's two things that can keep people bound. One is unconfessed sin to your spouse, and two is unforgiveness. You gotta deal with that stuff. And so, but I refuse to share with her because I just didn't have enough courage. But this is why godly men and women around you who love you. And that you guys, you've got to have someone in your life that you can tell everything. I've got three people in my life who I check in with. There's absolutely no secrets now, and they never judge me. You know, Christian never judged me. He celebrated me. I remember the day my career was like, bro, that's awesome. He literally said that's awesome when I told him I cheated on them because he knew what he's he knew what was coming. He told me his testimony, he told me others' testimonies, and he built my faith and he said, I'm gonna hear for you. Now we need to pray when to share with you, because you're about to get free. You're about to get free. And so it was just the understanding of how God operates and how the devil operates. How God operates is he's gonna treat you like royalty. You know, he leaves the 99 for the one. He threw a party. He threw a party when his son realized you think about it, his son realized he's sleeping with the pigs. He's he's spent, you know, he's like, I want to come back to my father. They threw a party. God's throwing a party when we bring it to the light. And now we have some, we I had to deal with the relational, you know, God. Let me just say this to the men. I became a man in August of 2013. How did I know I became a man when I could be honest with those people closest in my life? That's when I would transition from opposer, opposer, and a man. Our society needs more men. We need more men. That's when I was a man. That's true manhood is Christ-likeness. How can I have Christ-likeness when I'm lying to the closest people next to me and myself? So that's when I became a man, but the the hardest that was her hardest night of her life, Janelle, as you could it just hit her. She was in the closet and she was just she's just crying, and I honor you so much. But what that did to me was I'm never gonna hurt her again. Like I'm never obviously there's times where I did things to hurt her, but uh unintentionally, you know, just being an an idiot. But I'll I'll never forget. I was like, man, man, I hurt her, like, man, like I'm gonna fight for her.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

But um Yeah, well, and that's one thing I'll say is the forgiveness was immediate, that decision to forgive, but he loved me through the process of healing through it. And that's the thing is understanding like you forgive that person, but give yourself space to walk through the healing because if you don't and you just stuff it, then it can pop back up. And so that was something that I was intentional about and I was so grateful for him that he didn't expect me to be like, oh great, I'm free. You should feel great now. Like he didn't put that expectation on me. He knew that I was gonna have to walk through that process. And again, having women there um to share, you know, their testimony and to love on me was huge. But definitely make sure that you go through that process because you forgive immediately when you make that decision. You forgive and you stay in that decision, um, but just giving yours yourself the space to heal.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Okay. Where did you want to go?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Well, so then you guys walk through this and then you're doing good. Okay. Um, still growing, still working through things. And then what how did you? I mean, share with the audience on like how you came to um to to work with us, why you came to work with us, because you separated, we started working with you, then you separated, then we worked with you again. And so share with them that process of um what happened and why you guys separated and then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

So whenever we moved back to Texas from Florida and we were, you know, having that moment of breaking again, where we, you know, had gotten away from spiritual family, that was when we had lost that income. And so not only that, but I found out a couple of months after losing that income that I had miscarried. And so it just felt like we were just in the season of loss in so many different ways. And so once we, you know, were we a part of that new new venture and we saw you guys and what you were doing, we knew that it was time to take it serious. Like if this is not gonna just get better by osmosis, like we've got to be intentional with it. And it was the first time that we had ever done anything together as far as not just like a weekend marriage retreat, because those are great, but when you're battling the things into the depth that we were battling them, it wasn't just a weekend getaway that would fix it. Like we needed intentional weekly effort. And so um, that's whenever we got to really get to know you guys, and it was such a blessing in so many ways.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Yeah. So that was after, excuse me, that was after COVID. We started working with you guys on that program. And we there was many beneficial things that we learned. However, we needed a complete transformation. That's the separation was actually as strong as it was, as terrible as it was, it was actually strengthened in our relationship because it helped us with boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Um so well, and too, like I before we had worked with y'all, I had always thought like separation was like the end all be all, right? Like if you separate, then you're you're gonna get divorced. Like that was just my thought process. And so I think that's part of why we never, even as hard as it got sometimes, my mind just never fully went there because I was just like, it's but if we do that, like then it's gone, it's done. And so I was so grateful for you guys and just the how you poured into us individually, but also our marriage and gave us tools. But here's the thing you can get the tools, you can get the coaching, you can get the accountability, but it all comes down to your own free will. And are you willing to implement it? Are you willing to make the changes that you need to? And I felt like for us, we were both still in that selfish place of like, but I feel like this. And, you know, he felt a certain way. And like Joe said, it it got to that point where what we had spoken so many times became the fruit that we were eating.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Well, one thing that's important to know too is we didn't have a strong spiritual family and we didn't intentionally, you know, plug into our church and plug our our, we always use an excuse if we live too far, or we, you know, we when we had that financial setback, if you're experiencing a financial setback right now, that you're in a dangerous position because you know, like Dave Ramsey says, the number one cause of divorces is not even an infidelity these days, it's finances. So if your finances are being, you know, tested right now, that is a time to plug into community, which we did not do. We were lazy, we didn't plug into our church, we didn't serve in our church. Mike and Janelle, you guys were the only thing we had as far as people speaking into us, and you guys weren't local. So we didn't have a local community worship night, serving. We didn't have that. We didn't plug in. Very superficial relationships at our church.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

So what was the lowest point? So let's go back to the separation because I know that's a that's a reality for some couples, wives, husbands watching this right now, and and they're thinking to themselves, I don't, I'm hanging on to this much hope. Like, what was it for you? I want to ask you this specifically, Shana. What what was like that moment where it was like, I don't know that we're gonna make it? And then the flip side of that, what when was the moment you're like then you you you you you got some hope? So I want to have you kind of look at both of those. What was the lowest moment? And then when was that moment we're like, okay, I'm not, no, I'm not giving up. I'm not doing this. I'm not giving up now. We're gonna we're gonna fight.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah. So the lowest moment I would say is when Joe officially got his own house. Um, because we had talked about it so many times that when it actually happened, it was that gut moment of like, oh my goodness, like we're really doing this, like we're living separately right now, and talking about taking the kids over to see him and just it made it such a reality of like, okay, I I know that long term I don't want this to be our normal. I knew right then, like, we've got to make some changes because I don't want it to stay this way. But in the back of my mind, I had that. But what if things don't change and this is how the rest of your life is? And it was, it was a back and forth. And, you know, what was crazy was right when he moved into his own house right before we found out that I was pregnant and with our son Luke. And so it was a very interesting separation because now, you know, I'm pregnant. So then I'm thinking, okay, Lord, like what are we doing here? We're bringing another baby into this. And the moment that I had that decision of we're going forward together as a family was actually, I think it was the night before Luke was born. So Joe had started because I ended up getting my own place. He had his, and I was going to be doing a home birth. And Joe had come over and we started slowly incorporating back together where he would come to the house and he was staying there. And we got into a fight and he left the house to go back to where his house was. And I wanted to be mad in my mind. I thought, if I go into labor tomorrow, I'm just, I'm not gonna call him. I'm just gonna have this baby. So many fleshly thoughts. Like it was awful. Like I know it was the enemy trying so hard to steal our marriage, steal our family. But then I heard God say, is that really what you want? Is that really the result that you want of this birth of your family, of your marriage? And so immediately I reached out to Joe and I said, I'm not doing this. Like we are meant to be together, like what God brought together, let nothing separate. And I just told him, I was like, We're fighting, like we're fighting for this, we're fighting for our family. I want you to come back. And so he came back. We took communion, and I literally went into labor the next day and we had our son. So it was literally that moment. And I knew, like I knew in my heart, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna have this baby tomorrow, and this is gonna be a redemption. Like, this is gonna be the symbolization of our family. Coming back together.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

And you texted me a song, one of our songs.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And I think I had it playing when he got to the house, too.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

So what we're um, so who apologized first, by the way? I'm kidding. Um that's okay. You're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 22:17

The most mature one.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

The most mature one always apologizes first. Oh when you that is so good.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Yeah. We all know it was Shana. We all know it was Shayna. I can talk like that to Joe because we're we're close like that. Okay. When you were in that season of separation, though, when you started to realize, Shana, no, we're gonna fight, what were some of the practical? You don't have to give everything, but like what were some of the practical things that you did to start rebuilding that trust and you know your your connection again?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah, so one thing was obviously not saying divorce or leave or this is not gonna work, things like that. But also I know one of the big things for Joe was me undermining him when it came to our kids. And so for me, it had to be intentional effort of empowering him as the leader of our home and respecting him and showing that to our kids and not correcting him in front of them. Um, not that it was perfect, but it was definitely something that I knew I needed to personally work on.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Wow. You know, Shayna, that is really key because for those of you that are watching, like that is the number one need for men is honor. And I remember having probably more than one conversation where Joe and I would touch base and he would say, Man, Shayna, man, she honored. I remember the first time you you called me and you said, Man, Shayna just she had my back. She honored me with something that was going on with one of your daughters, and you were just a different man. And I think I knew in that moment that there was something had shifted in your marriage because, man, I'm telling you, when you guys get aligned, we talk a lot about unity and the law of partnership and marriage, which means everything that a couple does, you guys are a team, you're one unit, you guys gotta have each other's back. You may not have each other's back at the moment, you can talk about the things out in a different bedroom later, but in the moment when something's happening, you best have each other's back, right? And so that's what I kind of think what we're talking about there. I don't know if there's anything else you want to add there, Joe.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

No, I mean, it was night and day, and I could tell her it's just dying, dying to self. And that only lifted me up because you know, as she trusts me and she honors me, now she's trusting me to have God's heart and God's mind. We just had this situation last week where what one of my daughters, you know how it is, Mike, as they get older and I just was like and she said, Go outside and get God's God's heart and God's mind. And as I got got God's heart, I said, Lord, what do you want me to know? He said, Your daughter's hurting.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

I said, Okay, what do you want me to do? Love her.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

And so but she I mean, since we've had this I mean this is a I I don't I don't know one time, one time where she has not honored me in me being the leader of the home. She's been just amazing. And of course we've messed up sometimes, but um, it's been night and day. It's been night and day where she's honored me with the kids, letting our kids know that listen, dad is this the spiritual leader of the home, and we honor him, and you know, so but and it's helped me to lose control too, to let go of things that I don't need to worry about and and just let the kids be the kids. You know, I was so because I didn't have to honor it, it it was like a you know, that crazy dysfunctional cycle where I would either be like an Ahab spirit and let everything go and say, okay, you do it, or I would just try to press and squeeze and try to control everything. There's this chaos in our home, it's just the atmosphere of so much more love and peace because we're working together.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah. And it matters who who you have speaking around you to. Um, because I know for me during the separation, you know, there are gonna be people in your life that they mean well, but it may not be God's heart and God's mind on the situation. And so for me, obviously, you guys, um, I had another dear friend that anytime I talked to him, he would say, What is God telling you to do? It was never here's what you should do. It was what is God telling you? And so, you know, having that spiritual mentorship in your life of pointing you to the Lord, pointing you to what does he say about the situation? What does he say about your marriage? What does he say about your husband was the best thing that I could have ever done because again, it who you listen to matters.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

And so then you guys were separated. When did you make the decision to to get back together? I mean, obviously you started working on you've you guys have always been growing and working on yourselves, but you really were like, okay, what God, what do you have for our marriage? You you knew that you were designed and created to be together and be on mission together and to change the kingdom together. And so when was the moment that you were like, okay, let's let's move back in? We've got because and again, not only moving back in, but whatever you you guys know this, whatever you focus on grows. And so you knew that you not only had to focus on your relationship with God, you had to focus on your marriage, you had to focus on your business and focus on your children. But what was that moment that you were like, okay, we're gonna get back together and we got to keep working on ourselves? We've got to keep working on our relationship with God and never stop. Because like it's it's now a journey forever. It isn't something that you just, oh, we're good. Like we're never, we're never we're never gonna stop working on ourselves, you know, or working on our marriage. And so go back to when you decided to get back together and why you got back together.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

Well, like I mentioned, you know, as soon as we separated, it hit me like a ton of bricks that this is the last thing I wanted. However, I realized I don't blame her if she left it. Like this is a very important for all men. This and this is tough. When you lose your wife's heart, you may never ever get it back. You may and and I knew that I lost my wife's heart. And because I had lost it, even though I wanted it, I knew that it was a 50-50s, you know. I knew that as much as I want her heart back, I trampled on it and I didn't treasure it. And so I may never ever get it back. And guys, if you have your wife's heart right now, cherish it. Cherish it. If you don't have your wife's heart, pray and and grow and work and just pray because there's nothing you can do in the flesh to get your wife's heart back. Only God can restore her heart. And so when I lost her heart, I didn't I I couldn't say come back, come back, come back, because I didn't have her heart. So I started getting coaching. I hired a coach, I had two different professional coaches. I had a um a coach on you know the you know, restoring my childhood trauma, you know, because then you start having to look in the mirror and you're thinking, Okay, how did I get here? Well, it's because you know, I don't have to share all my my my childhood stuff with you guys. We've all been through stuff. But I realized it it was that childhood trauma that had never been dealt with that had caused me to be the way that I was and say the things that I did and think the way that I thought thought. Shana would get so mad because she was like, you know, people from the outside seeing me as a leader. We we lead a team of over like 12,000 people, and so she was tired of seeing the the leader on stage and everyone else thinks he's amazing, but I know of how he treats me. And so um she was tired of the fact that I've been to all the leadership conferences, that I've done this, that, and the other, and I'm still the way I am. And I'll never forget, I read a book called The Key by uh Pastor Frank. And uh what's his last name? Lewis. Is it Lewis Mike? Lewis, yeah. And what I needed was soul redemption. And I worked with Pastor Frank on those times in my life where I was abused as a kid or just had this trauma as a child, whether I was abandoned or whatever it was. I needed to restore those times and have Jesus give me a completely new revelation of my past to let me know that that was healed and he was there with me to help me walk in my identity. And that's just in a nutshell. But that was that was weeks and months of of coaching. So I had one-on-one coaching. So that's my advice to you guys. If you've lost your wife's heart, get coaching. If you still have it, get coaching. Listen, it I was talking to someone last week because I referred them to you guys, and I was like, I'm gonna have marriage coaches until the day I die or Jesus comes back. I'm never not going to have marriage. I don't I don't understand it. How people I don't understand it. You're aside from your relationship with Jesus, your marriage is the most treasured thing on this earth, even before your kids. So it's like we will never, ever stop having marriage coaches. Ever. We're always gonna have you guys in our lives. Always. Always.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah. And I know for me, I remember one specific phone call that I had with you, Ganel, that I called you one day, and it was after we had made that decision that we were gonna reconcile. And I don't even remember what happened because it's irrelevant now, but we had a moment where it was like that those old feelings like, oh my goodness, I I thought things were getting better. And I called you and you were like, listen, God did not bring y'all this far to not see it all the way through. And I just I held on to that because I was like, yes, that's so true. Just because we made the decision that we were reconciling doesn't mean it's just going to be perfect from here on out, right? Like it's still going to be work, it's still going to be that effort. And so again, going back to it's so important because I could have called a friend and gossiped about my husband and how bad. And she could have said, Hey, you need to leave him. He, you're right, things haven't changed. And so two totally different phone calls, right? And so understanding, you know, when you are reaching out and how important that coaching is and who it's coming from for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Wow, Joe, I'm gonna just say this because for for again, those watching, 85% of our clients that come to us, it's the wife reaching out for help first. And part of it is you've you've spoken directly to the men that are watching this, Joe. And I love that you did that because I think there's a story that men have that they they they've already dealt with their past, they've already forgiven their mom or dad or whatever. Like, why do we got to keep talking about it? Let's just move on. But most men really never deal with it. They really deal with it and let Jesus go back to those memories and heal. Because if you don't deal with that and heal that, it's gonna follow you in ways that you don't even recognize that's happening. It's gonna become out in the way your tone, your sharpness, the way that you speak to your kids, all of that. And I love the fact that you're bold, you're not afraid to share that. And I just maybe want to have you share one more encouragement to the men that this is something that we gotta do. The most manly men that I've ever seen are aren't afraid to go there. I mean, your dad was a green beret, so you grew up in a home that's that's about as manly as it gets. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Well, what what is man manhood is is Christ-likeness. That's the best definition of of manhood. And I mean I always say, you know, put yourself if you're a dad, put yourself in your kids' shoes, or when you were a child, just think about what it would have been if your dad would have had Christ-likeness in the toughest times of your life. And so getting God's heart, getting God's mind, and it's all about listen, if you're not growing, you're dying. Like if you are not growing, you are dying. And sometimes growth, you know, one of our friends taught us grapes are sweet, but wine is potent. And it's anybody can live a convenient life, but if you really want to live out your maximum redemptive potential, it's gonna happen by one dying to self and two surrounding yourself with spiritual family. Spiritual family is when you have people that come alongside you and they know that it is their God-given duty in love to help you walk out who God's called you to be. That's spiritual family. They feel that it is their duty to help you become the best you can be. You guys are in a dangerous place, man. If no one is, if you don't have spiritual family and no one knows your stuff, the good, the bad, and the yuppie, you're in danger. That's the danger zone. But you guys got to be on the offense. You know, you gotta be you got to become a reader. Like in my industry, no, you won't be successful unless you you read. It's the books you read, the people you meet, the places you go. And that was ingrained in us, Mike. So what are you reading? Who are you surrounding yourself with? You know, Shana and I, no one had to tell us to go to a marriage seminar or John Mapswell event or a leadership event, or you know, when no one had to tell us that. But we're now we're growing together. See, when people get married in life, Mike, they get married and then they start going lives like this.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

But you got to better, you know, I've got my career, I got my career, I do, and then here and here.

SPEAKER_05 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

And that's the other thing of why we separated. It was the first time in our marriage where we were going two separate businesses. So that's my other encouragement is what can you do with your wife? What nonprofit can you start? What business can you start? What anything can you start? Kids, teams, coaches, you know, you guys have got to do something together. You have got to do something together where you are building your life together, something. I don't care if it's a coaching, a Pee-We softball team, whatever it is, just start a home-based business, start something together. But my my encouragement for men is just grow, guys, stop putting the finger. Andy Andrews is one of my favorite authors, and he says, if where you're at today, that's what I tell myself when we got separated. Joe, if where you're at today is is because of the result of someone else, Shana, you have zero power to change. But if where you're at today is your fault, then you have all the power to change. All the power to change. So it starts with for me not being a victim, and that's when I listen to the Holy Spirit. They say, Joe, you're here because you wanted this. You spoke it, you acted it, you thought about it, you spoke it, and then you it's always think, speak, act. So you got to change the thinking, and then you change your speaking, and then that'll change your acting. So, but I thought about it, I spoke it. That's why you got to be careful with your thoughts and take those thoughts captive.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Yeah. Well, that's that's amazing, Joe. And one thing I want to acknowledge you, Shana, two things. Number one, when Joe is speaking, going back to honor, I can just see how you look at him and the admiration that you have for your husband. And there's something I'll never forget. Same mentor, Joe, you know who I'm talking about. He said something I'll never forget. He said the world is always watching. When you don't even think people are watching, people are watching. And it's in those little moments, just like you're doing Shana right now, looking at him with just this admiration. And Joe, I know you. You're you're kind of you're an alpha male, you're a driver. And so for a lot of wives that may be married to a husband that has a very driver alpha male type personality, it's easy for them to just kind of sit back in the shadows. And Shayna, you you you partner with Joe in such an incredible way. You guys are on mission. You guys have been on mission for a long time. And it went a little sideways there for a little while, but you guys are back on track. And so maybe I just want to have you, Shayna, just as we kind of close this up, unless there's anything else you want to add in. Um, Shayna, any encouragement? Because I, Shana, I've seen you guys grow, but you have really not just been a supportive wife, but you like you have your own like you're running your you're doing a lot yourself in running the business together. She wrote a book. You are super sharp. Like I mean, she you speak She's a you're sharp, you're smart, but you don't just sit back in the shadows. You support Joe, but you also have like your own life, you're running voice, her own voice. Voice is what I'm trying to say. Thank you. That was the word I'm looking for. So is there any encouragement that you'd want to share for any wives that are in a season of like, man, I don't, I don't know if this is gonna work out.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Yeah, thank you so much for that, by the way. Um, but it's been it's so sweet because even though, like Joe was saying, the separation was so hard and it was such a tough season for us, I'm grateful for it because the closeness that we have now, like the way we love each other, our relationship, where it's at today has never been better. And I can genuinely say that. Um, but it does come from that decision first in your heart and then your mind, right? That you're you're committed to this. And it is, it would be very easy because he is so talented. Like he can, whatever he sets his mind to, he is going to succeed at it. And it's so exciting watching him. And I will say, you know, when he made that decision to fight for our marriage, to fight for our family, it was just this shift in him where he's still the same, like he's still leading, he's still out there, got his passion and his energy, but it's coming from such a place of love. And so it's been such um just an honor to get to witness that in him. Um, but just for the women, you know, I just want to encourage you. Number one, your prayers are more powerful than you will ever think. Um, there were times where I'm I would, and I'm being very honest, like I would be like, Lord, I don't really want to pray for him right now. I'm mad. And God would never, he was never surprised, right? Like he knows my thoughts. So me voicing it, you know, was was not surprised to him, but I did anyways. And God just loved me through that. And so just understand, like your prayers are so powerful, but also your heart posture and how, you know, you're not responsible for your husband. You're not responsible for his walk with the Lord, you're not responsible for, you know, his growth. And um, you know, I have this uh visual that I had always thought, you know, if I'm holding Joe up to God, saying, like, change him, change him. And I'm like squeezing him. And the Lord's like, well, how do I get to him if you're like squeezing onto him so tight, trying to change him yourself? And it was like releasing him where God could take him from my grip and actually, you know, begin to work on his heart. And I know that that's truly what it was for Joe was, you know, not putting these this pressure expectation on him, but just loving him through that process, him being able to see um the change with me. Um, and then just again, not not feeling like, oh, well, I what what do I have to add? What value do I have? Well, first I know my value is as a wife and as a mom. Um we've got kiddos that that's my first ministry, right? Um doesn't mean I always get it right every time, but it's it's that sanctification and growing through it. But then, okay, Lord, like what is it that you put in me? Like what are what are things that I'm passionate about that I can share with others, that you can use me? And one of those was childbirth. We've got five kiddos, and I've had redemption from the first one all the way down to you know our last two home births and just understanding um that God's gonna bring the women to my life that you know I'm gonna get to minister to. And so it's just always wanting to follow God's God's leading on everything. Like if it's not from the Lord, I don't want any part of it because I don't want to waste time. Like I only want to do the things that He is calling me to and just not getting into that comparison because we are so different, but that's why we go so well together because we are so different and we can um, you know, just encourage one another.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

One thing I want to honor Shannon in is uh just the boundaries too, you know. You know, she after so long you know I just I struggled with am I really number one aside from Jesus in her life? And I'm telling you, this year she's made it the actions speak way louder than the words, right? And the boundaries that she's put up to honor our marriage and her family has just been amazing. You know, that's so important. It's healthy boundaries for your family. You know, make sure you know that who's speaking into your marriage is for your marriage because we have realized you know, if they're not for you, they can they're against you. And so kicking out the little foxes that want to steal steal the fruit from your marriage, from your children. We have to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, the Bible says. And we we we can't get lazy with who we're allowing to speak into our marriage or our children. Have to put up strong boundaries because the moment we get lazy and we we see because we see it, you know. If you see if if you if you know, don't think that it's not gonna to invade you. Think about how the first sin in the garden happened, Micah Janelle. It always starts with someone twisting, deceiving, and that's how it starts in the marriage and your kids, even if it could be family or close friends, there's always seasonal relationships. Some were there for a season, and then there's destiny friends. So you be strong enough to let some relationships go to preserve to pr uh preserve and strengthen your marriage and your family.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Amen. Yeah, that's a great place to end because you talked a lot about relationships and having the right people in your life. And when you lose spiritual family, it's a bad place to be. And sometimes that's hard when you're in a feeling of isolation. And I we see this a lot. So I think that's just a great exhortation, Joe and Shana, is to make sure that you don't go into isolation and fall out of those godly relationships.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

And so well, and if they are, real quick, if they are in isolation, because most of the people that come to us are in isolation. I mean, they're embarrassed, they they can't believe where they're at. They have um things have just gone backwards. And so we want to encourage you that if you're in isolation or you don't have a church or you don't have spiritual family, to start praying for it. Start praying for God-fearing couples, God-fearing mentors, a God-fearing church. Start praying for that to come in. And if you don't have that, then pray for it because prayer is so powerful and God wants to open doors and wants to help you and wants to put people around you to help you. And so that's number one. And then number two, Joe and Shayna, we're gonna, we're gonna close up because you guys have had a. I mean, even Mike and I, we look at our marriage and it's been, well, you know, we've been together 27 years and we've had a lot of stuff. And and you guys have you guys have had that too. And Shayna, you said something really powerful as you said, it's better than it's ever been. And thinking of going through infidelity, uh, porn, loss of income, loss of everything. I mean, it was like you guys have experienced ups and downs. Like you've experienced a lot of loss. And now here you are that you have a marriage better than ever. As we close up, do you have any like one or two moral things that you want to add in here to encourage them to get help, to encourage them to reach out to us, to encourage them, even if it's one of them fighting and the other one isn't, to reach out? Or like what what other encouragement, just one or two last things that you can just be like impart into them to make sure that they don't keep doing this on their own.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

I'll go for now with you finish. Um, but I would just say choose your hard. Right? Like it takes work to work through your marriage, but it's which hard road are you wanting to take? And I can tell you the fruit at the end of deciding to go all in for your marriage and fight for it is so worth it.

SPEAKER_04 47:13

So you know, for me it's I hung on to a word, you know, and I I watched the sermon during our separation, and it was just it so nourished my soul, and I hung on to it. But it was a sermon and I captured the sermon in three points. He said, You need to trust in God's character. You know, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Because as there are people that were trying to, you know, get us divorced and have their opinions, and as Shana was being influenced, and you know, I knew I did my own doing and I I couldn't control all that. I can only trust in God's character. Secondly, I knew that he was present in my pain. I knew that I could truth tell. I knew that I could give him my pain and trust him with it. And lastly, guys, this is what I held on to. I held on to this word that Jesus would have the final say in my marriage. That Jesus would have the final say in my life. Didn't matter who was trying to lie to Shana, didn't matter what I had done, didn't matter what mistakes, Jesus, you will have the final say. I stood on that word, Janelle. I stood on that word, Mike. I Jesus, you will have the final say in my marriage. I know it looks like this right now, but you will have the final say for my destiny. I just stood on that.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Wow. Come on. Oh, I want to add to that real quick, Joe. And this is for whoever's listening, is whoever's listening believes in Jesus. And if you believe that God can raise his son from the dead, yeah. He can raise a man from the dead, he can save your marriage.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

He can save your marriage.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

One more thing I have to say with that. See, if if you say you can't just say that, yeah, you gotta believe it, and then you gotta get in alignment with God's word. There you go. I can't say, Jesus, you will have the final say and then start go going to the nudie bars. I can't say Jesus, you have the final say and then get a girlfriend on the side. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I gotta say, Jesus, you have the final say, and I believe you, and I'm gonna live my life according to your word. I'm not gonna be perfect, but I'm gonna trust in you, Jesus, and you're gonna make it all our okay no matter what happens, because you have many plans for my life.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Man, believe and walk in the alignment. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

And I and I want to say this. We're so proud of you guys. Yes, we are, and more importantly, God is proud. You have five beautiful daughters and a son, and they've seen an absolute miracle. They've seen a miracle. They're a w they're a walking miracle in the miracle of you guys coming together and the amount of people that you guys are transforming, God working through you, in you and through you, and the amount of people that you're helping, the amount of marriages that you're helping now, the amount of people that you're helping in business. And it's it's mind-blowing what you guys are doing now because not only are you on mission together, but God's first, then your marriage, then your children, and then everything else. And I just want to tell you guys that we love you and we're so proud of you. We're proud of your yes, we're proud of you not giving up, you fighting the fight of good faith. And it's an honor to walk alongside you guys. We love you so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

We are. Well, I think I think um, if any who's ever watching, you better be encouraged. And I hope you are. And so if you're at this place now, you're like, okay, what do I do? In the show notes, there's gonna be a couple of links that I want you to look at. Wise wives and husbands of valor. Look for those two keywords. Those are the intensives where we work specifically with the husband. I work with the husband directly. Janelle works with a wife, and we're working with you together as in your dual coordinated paths together because we're bringing you to the same place. And oftentimes that looks uh, it's a little easier when we get to work with you separately. Joe mentioned a book Freedom Behind Me because we want a root-striking approach. We're not just gonna gloss over and trim the hedges. We want to help get to the root so that you guys can have different fruit and create the legacy that you want. So, Joe, Shana, and we love you both so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Well, and real quick, also, also down in the show notes, we'll make sure that we put in there how they can follow you on social media, what you guys do in business. You guys are helping so many people um make money, make extra income. And so we'll make sure that's in the show notes too, so people can go and follow you and and reach out. And just thank you so much for um for being on our pad being on our podcast. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

We love y'all. We love y'all so much. Love you. All right, God bless you.