Alyx Elliott - 'The Strategy Behind Campaigns That Last'

In this episode of A Drop in the Ocean, I sit down with Alyx Elliott - senior campaign strategist, former campaign leader at organisations including Oceana, World Animal Protection and multiple global charities - to explore what it really takes to create campaigns that drive meaningful change.

With more than 20 years in campaigning, Alyx has led teams tackling everything from overfishing, ghost gear and bottom trawling to oil and gas, animal welfare, and public policy. Today, she helps organisations pressure-test their campaign strategies, remove barriers, and build campaigns that are actually fit for purpose.

In this conversation we dive into:

👉 Why most campaigns lose focus before real change happens
👉 The power of insights - not just data, but truly understanding people
👉 Why strategy needs constant review, not a once-a-year workshop
👉 The uncomfortable truth about coalition-building and brand ego
👉 Why winning a policy isn’t enough if nobody measures real-world impact
👉 How campaign leaders can stay focused, resilient, and relentless

This is a brilliant conversation for campaigners, charity leaders, marketers, communicators, and anyone trying to create change in a noisy world.

Because real campaigns don’t just make noise.
 They move people, systems, and policy.

🎙 Listen now.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I'm Stu Davies, Ocean Caring Digital Strategist. This podcast dives into the real stories behind ocean caring brands, organizations, and ocean tech innovators. Welcome to a drop in the ocean. Each episode explores the wins, challenges, and lived experiences of people working to protect our seas, from grassroots campaigners to global initiatives, and from early stage ocean tech to large-scale conservation programs. But this is more than just storytelling. Along the way, we'll also connect these changemakers with experts in marketing, communications, AI, storytelling, and strategy, sharing practical insights to help all of us amplify our impact. One drop in the ocean becomes many. Let's make some waves together. And welcome to another episode of A Drop in the Ocean. Today I've been really looking forward to this episode. So it is actually the last episode in this current series, and we've got a fabulous guest for it. We've got Alex Elliott. So Alex I would describe as a campaigning strategist. She's got an academic background in ethics, she's been a campaigner for 20 years, working for several different charities, including Oceana, World Animal Protection, Kinship, I4, and Humane World for Animals. She's led teams campaigning against oil and gas, ghost fishing gear, overfishing and bottom trolling, amongst many other marine non-marine campaigns. Alex, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Thanks, Stu. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Great to have you as a guest. So um Alex, I always ambush my guests with uh a question I haven't sent them. So um uh this is it. So what I'd like you to share with us and our audience is uh your fondest memory of the ocean, please.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, absolutely. It is a bit head first to eat this one, but I um I was lucky enough to go to Hawaii um about a decade ago and went snorkelling um off the coast of Kauai and found myself on on my own, quite f relatively far out from the beach. Um I'd actually just been through a a really um terrible tragedy in my life. I'd like we'd lost our first child and we'd gone to Hawaii to escape it all. And when I was out there on my own, I was suddenly surrounded by the most beautiful well, half a dozen huge turtles just swimming around me. Incredibly peaceful, incredibly beautiful moment, and um it actually reminded me of yeah, it sounds it sounds a little bit deep for the first question, but the beauty of the world and um in a moment, a very dark moment in my life, it sort of it really inspired me, and um and yeah, it it it's a moment that would all stay with me.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Okay, well thank you so much for sharing for sharing that beautiful moment and a poignant moment in your life. So um so Alex, um just gonna chat through your journey a little bit. What first drew you to campaigning uh as a career?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I don't think I had another choice to be honest. I think I was born this way in a way. Um yeah, I was very very passionate about protecting animals and very drawn to animals as a young child, to nature generally. Um, you know, I learned to swim very, very young and was snorkeling very young, and I think I was all within awe of sort of the natural world around us. But as I as I grew older, I obviously became more aware of the injustices of the world, not just relating to nature and the environment, but to other people and and other many other issues. And as I got older, I got more involved with charities and volunteering. Um, I studied ethics at uni, as you mentioned, and that just really fired my passion, but also sort of professionalized it in a way and gave me a way to channel it. And yeah, when I left uni, I I I I didn't have a choice. It was that it was campaigning. Um, as soon as I knew that that was actually a thing and you could get paid to do it, that was me. So um yeah, applied for a campaign officer role um at an animal welfare charity and got it, and I've I've never looked back.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Brilliant. And and at what point did you know, you've been very heavily involved with ocean and marine organisations. At what point did that become a focus for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I've always been a a water baby, um, so it's always been a um a a passion of mine and something I wanted to do, but I didn't really get the chance until I worked on a ghost fishing gear campaign, um, which was, yeah, a good 10-15 years ago now, I think. And um just so delighted to work on it, finally. Um, and I'm also a scuba diver, I was involved with like Paddy Aware and all of all of that sort of side of things, more as a volunteer, but yeah, I always knew I wanted to work on that, and then I obviously got the chance to work at Oceano, which was yeah, a fantastic experience of just being able to focus purely on marine issues.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

So yeah, you know, you spent several years helping build Oceana UK's campaigning capability. What did that experience teach you about running impactful campaigns?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I think the number one thing it taught me was the importance of recruiting the right people, which sounds a little bit sort of um administrative in a way, but um, you know, really making sure that not just the campaigns team, but the entire team really fit together and and was at a you know a a level of excellence that we knew we needed to deliver on the issues we cared about. You know, we really took our time and was very were very deliberate about how and who we recruited for that team. Um I think the only other thing I would say, and this is just because of experience of working in multiple organizations, is that every place seems to have a slightly different definition of what campaigning is. And it's really important whenever you join somewhere, or even if you've just never asked the question, to really understand what that is and what expectations are from within the organization. Because they were different at Oceana as they are everywhere. So that's also something um that you know over time you only really learn from experience. But I I definitely um I definitely explored more when I was there.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah, okay. And and now you're uh a freelance campaign strategy. What are you up to now, Alex? How how how do you help organisations and who do you help now?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, and I I have been since the beginning of the year, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm I'm really getting to focus on the things that I know that I love and that I'm good at, which is yeah, working out from the very beginning or or even refreshing your campaign strategy, but really starting from scratch and saying, right, what is it the change you want to make, and how do I get you to a point where you get there? And quite often I've found that I'm being approached by organizations who, you know, they have a solid campaigns team in place, but they just don't have the headspace to step back and do that, or they feel like they have to facilitate it as well as do the work. And what I am doing is going in and really providing them with that headspace, but also some really constructive challenge as a outside point of view, and say, you know, have you thought of this? Um, you know, is that really going to join up to what you want in the end? And really asking those tough questions, but in a really sort of positive and team-building way. So yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'm getting work to work with a uh a load of different organizations, including marine ones, so that's that's fantastic for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

So you know, often from the outside, campaigning can look quite fast, um, but meaningful change takes years. Why is persistence so important?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Because, you know, what you're often seeing when you know when you say campaigning is fast, that that's very often the very end of the campaign, or just a big moment within the campaign. Um but y you know, change doesn't happen without without people fighting for it, and there's a very natural resistance to change. So there's you've got to have um an acknowledgement from the very beginning that most campaigns are a long game and you have to be in the fight for it, you have to be up for being persistent, uh, for not giving up, because ultimately that's what the resistance is trying to do is to get you to give up, and and and they're just saying no. Campaigning is all about like finding different ways in, being persistent, never giving up, and and really channeling your passion and and and and and keep going until you get what you need to get to.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

It's uh stoicism of the case. Absolutely. You've got to have determination. Absolutely, yeah, definitely. Relentlessness.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Absolutely. Yeah, all campaigners need that.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, um and and what does it actually take to keep an organization focused on a campaign over multiple years?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, it's a really good question. It really does, in my experience, it differs from place to place. Um, a lot of it is dependent on the leadership um and how patient they are and what their expectations are. So there's there can be in certain organizations a lot of managing upwards in terms of trying to manage those expectations and be realistic. You know, you can't re you can't plan 10 years ahead. Like you don't know what the context you're going to be operating is then. But an awareness that things could take that long or even longer is really important to be realistic and to make sure you've got all the resources and and support in place. So it's very dependent on the on the issue, but I think ultimately it does it can fall down when you don't have leadership that really acknowledge the reality of campaigning.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

To that senior stakeholder buy-in. Um, understanding that it's not a flash in the pan activity, this is something that's going to go on and on and on and needs to go on and on and on to be visible, to be there.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

And to be meaningful in the long term, to not just be a sort of shallow win, but actually to know you've embedded the win and the change in in whatever forum you're doing it in.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Absolutely. Okay. Um so was there a campaign moment where you saw strategy really work where you knew something had shifted?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah, there's been a few times like that. I think the the obvious ones are kind of, you know, when you get a piece of legislation over the line or you get a minister committing to do something. And I and I have I have been lucky enough to be part of those um those times. One of the most recent ones was with bottom trawling, actually, and um the then DEFRA minister Steve Reed after a lot of pressure and the Attenborough film came out and an awful lot of of campaigning from Oceana and many other organizations came out and said that they were Labour was going to ban bottom trawling uh in UKCs, and you know that was a that was a huge moment. Of course, we're now in a place where it's like, have you done it? What's happening? Um and that and that's why I'm saying that there are like it's it's very rare to get at a moment where you think, oh, we've done it. We've actually completely done it. Um it it and they do come along, of course they do, but I think being a campaigner, there's always an awareness of their sort of steps of progress, but there's still work to do. And the strategy absolutely is working, or it's not, and we have to adapt and and move and and and make sure it fits where we need to go now. Um but yeah, across many different issues, I've I've been lucky enough to have lots of those moments, and they you absolutely have to celebrate them because they are they are change, they are they are progress. Um, but they are hard fought. They are really hard fought.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

And it's if it's if it's political change, then um it's important that we hold the politicians to account. I know with my campaigning for surfers against sewage campaign success for manifesto promises hasn't necessarily lined up with action in legislation.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

So yeah, and even beyond that, enforcement, actual action out in the ocean. You know, are they you know what's happening to the seabed? What's happening to the the the the people using the sea or the the animals living with it with it within it? Like how can we monitor it and that impact? So it yeah, you have to see it through right to the end, and then beyond, you know, make sure it hasn't backtracked. It's a it's you know, it's a it's a it's not often talked about, but it's a it's real, otherwise your your success can be really short-lived.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yeah, no, it's it yeah and I suppose that's that's a lesson for many campaigners is how do you what's your follow-through? You know, yeah. How how do is gonna enforce bottom trawling? How is that measured? How who's gonna keep an eye on it? And how who's gonna stop people from not doing it? Who holds the politicians to account when they weaken down the legislation?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So exactly. And is there is there is there appetite in the organization to keep an eye on it once we've had that win? You know, or or do they want to move on to something new? You know, so it it all of these things, you know, you they they you really need to have deep conversations about like that that long haul and what it actually means for meaningful change.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

It's all about that upfront planning strategy.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Those conversations are super important.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Great. So um we're gonna take a quick break there. In part two, we're gonna come back and we're gonna deep dive into campaign strategy. So we'll see you in a couple of minutes. You're listening to a drop in the ocean, the podcast that brings together ocean change makers and digital experts, helping us all amplify our impact. If you're listening to this and thinking we're doing important work, but our digital strategy just isn't quite landing, that's exactly what I help you with. Find me at stew-davies.com. And welcome back to the second half of A Drop in the Ocean. So this is sadly the last episode in the first series, but there will be another series. I've got my guest today, campaigning strategist Alex Elliott. Alex, welcome back.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Thanks, G. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

So, Alex, we're gonna deep dive into campaign strategy. A lot of our audience are working on campaigns, they're campaigners, or they're working with organizations or who are doing campaigns, or they're marketers who are planning their own campaigns. So, we're gonna start with focus and relentlessness. So I I used that word before. So you said campaigns need to be focused and relentless. What does that actually look like in practice?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, sure. So when I say focus, I mean it's really not getting distracted. Um, really being very, very clear about your goals, what issues you're working on, and not being tempted to try and do everything. It is super tempting when you're passionate to to say yes to requests to work on all sorts of issues, but and that happened at Oceano, it happens it happens all the time um wherever you work. But it all it does is spread you too thinly, and it it maybe it sounds like an obvious point, it probably applies to a lot of different roles, but all all it does is take away time and resource from what it is you're trying to achieve, and you've already got a huge enough um you know load on your shoulders in terms of what you're trying to win. So it's really tempting and it's hard to say no, but it's it's super important for campaigners. In terms of being relentless, that's kind of we touched on this earlier, but it's it's you you basically just don't ever shut up about it. You just keep going on and on every each and every opportunity. You have to obviously have a degree of common sense around that, but at the same time, what you're aiming to do is to normalize what you're talking about. It's about making this part of not I mean you you're not going to convince everybody, but the people who you do need to convince, you need to normalise it for them, you need to make it something that they talk about even when you're not in the room. And the only way you do that, and that there's a lot of studies around this with any anything, and it's how big brands work as well, it's just being there in your face over and over again, so it just becomes part of normal daily life, and the same is absolutely true for the issues we're campaigning on.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, yeah, no, um very wisely said. So I've done I've I've worked with a couple of organizations and um around strategy, and you know, some of my observations were you're trying to do too many things, your focus is stretched, your media channels are confused, you're trying to reach that audience with this message, and that audience with this message, and you've got one team who are putting it out on the same channels. Um, and there was no governance, there was no this is the important thing that we talk about. So that was my observation. But from your experience, why do organizations often struggle maintaining focus on a campaign long enough to get to that winning line?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, I think there's yeah, like you said, there's those organizations that can't focus just on you know one or two or three issues, and that's definitely uh something that I would say sits with leadership. Um but but also in terms of like focusing long enough, that's very specifically, I feel, to do with impatient leadership, but also inpatient funders. Um, you know, i there's often a kind of you know, we'll fund you for a year, two years, three years max, and there's a there's a sort of uh I guess a feeling of oh we better have achieved it all by then. Sometimes not, but sometimes so. But actually there's a difference between slow progress and no progress, and actually, you know, it it it it's natural for campaigns to take a while to be meaningful, to really sit and be normalized with people. Um and I think that it you know there needs to be more recognition that campaigns do take a long time, and that doesn't mean that you're just kicking it into the long grass, it just means that you know the investment needs to be there for the long haul, um, both from in fund both from funders and from you know CEOs and boards.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

So I mean that happens at the C-suite, that happens at the those top level conversations when you're starting those campaigns. It's about the expectations of how how and when this manifests. Um but it's interesting, yeah, funder pressure. Um funders obviously putting a lot of money into it and they're expecting these how how how do we even have those those conversations?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I think it it's got to be, you know, you've obviously with a funder you need to do like reporting back to them. And I think having really regular communication as much as you can, uh where you feel you can be really transparent about the ups and downs of the campaign is so important. You know, if you have clear indicators or whatever you want to call them targets in your campaign, um, and you're regularly spent not just once a year, but like quarterly, for example, or twice a year, really able to sit down with them and feel like the relationship is trusted enough to be open about the challenges, then I think that will foster that that trust and and a recognition that it doesn't happen as quickly as it as as they might like. I think I'm not saying all funders are like that, of course, but I have experienced some that are. But I think that communication is fundamental and really involving them in what's happening um and not just the good news, I think is is is super important.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Yeah, okay. Um so transparency, regular communications, everyone's clear on how it's gonna come across. So you talked about the importance of insights, um both quantitative and qualitative. Could you uh uh give us give us some more uh uh information on that?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah, of course. So um insights really it's it's basically about understanding your audiences. It's basically going out and talking to people and understanding their perspective to inform your messaging and and not just your messaging but also to inform your strategy. Quantitative um insights are basically polling, um, that everyone's familiar with, especially at the moment. I mean, um with the elect the local elections that are happening at the moment, um, you know, we all see the polls that come out. Uh qualitative is much more like focus groups and one-on-one interviews and you know that kind of environment. Um I've I've I again done quite a lot of this with different charities over time, and it honestly I've just seen how much it can transform your strategy or your me and or your messaging simply because um you know you need to understand where your audience who your audiences are, where they are in terms of your issue and how to meet them there. You know, we we I've done I've done um uh uh focus groups and and polling before where there's even just an assumption about what a basic word means. You know, we did some Oceana that asked, you know, what what do you think when we say the word ocean or sea? And there was disagreement about whether it meant just the water or the water in the seabed or the animals in it or the coast and the people that used it. So even as a charity, when you're using the word ocean, it means different things to different people. And if there's disagreement there, then and then you're asking them to protect the ocean. People have very different understandings of what you're talking about. So even at a very basic level, and that that's applied to lots of different um um issues that I've worked on, just having that understanding a at a basic level like that, but right through to really detailed questions around the specific issue you're you're working on, whether they're outraged by it, whether they don't care about it, whether they you know whether they could ever care about it, and what would make them actually take action. There's so many different things that you can ask people. Um and it it it really transforms any assumptions that you might have as a campaigner and as someone who is passionate about it already, to really understand who it is you're trying to change the mind of and and how to go about doing that.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah, okay. Yeah, ask ask questions from real humans. Your AI bot is not going to be able to give you that level of insight. You've got to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Definitely not. Definitely no AI is not. Yeah, not your own assumptions either, which is super easy to do.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, yeah. Well projecting outwards. So what does it really mean to really understand an audience when designing a campaign?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I think it's it's it like I said, it's really meeting them where they are. Um and that might make you feel uncomfortable. You might not understand why they're there. But digging as far deep into that as you can and being really Really curious, I think is so important. And you know, there is a there is a a tendency which really sort of gets under my skin sometimes about talking about getting the public on board with a campaign. You you you're never going to get the entire public behind a campaign. You know, the amount of investment you'd need to do that would be on the scale of you know one of the big brands out there.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Um get everybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, you exactly. It's just it's non it's nonsense. Um you need to be really specific about who it is that you're trying to get to support your campaign, like a subset of the public or political decision makers or corporate leaders or whoever it might be, um, and then really, really cater your your insights to that to those audiences to understand them. Um and there are some great people out there and organizations out there who help guide you through that and and help you to craft it in the most effective way possible. Um but yeah, it to know them is to really make be uncomfortable yourself and and really to sit in their shoes and and that's that's your starting point.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Okay, okay. And um like some issues are trickier to campaign for because people aren't thinking about it, or it's not in front of their face. So I know surface against sewage, uh it it's a very visceral topic, it's you can show people the pollution map it's happening in the stream or the river. But for Oceana, that was happening in the ocean. Um it wasn't necessarily something that they could see or feel that tangible impact um uh you know for them. So how how do you campaign on those issues? Uh that it's not in their face and you know, you don't have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, and I mean with Surface Against Sewage is a great example, because of course before they had the pollution map and all of that great stuff, no one knew about that either. So they they've obviously found a way to then bring that in front of people, which is fantastic. Um yeah, it is it is especially with ocean issues, it's super hard because unless you're by the sea or you care about the ocean and you love the ocean anyway, you're not you're just not thinking about it. Um and it's it it might be by chance you see an article in the paper or you see a David Attenborough documentary or something. Um I think you know, in terms of some things are luck, other things are in your control. Insights can really help you to feel a little bit more in control of that. So, yeah, like at Oceana, we found out some really great stuff about like certain words, certain turns of phrase that would really attract people. Another thing, and this cuts across all issues, is drawing analogies between things in the ocean and things on land, um, you know, that that really kind of bring it home for people, but also talking about it in the context of human health, in terms of cost of living, you know, the issues that they do care about. So, but you've got to test all of these things with the people you're trying to reach. And some things will work with some people, some things work with the other, and and you again you can't just like throw them out in the in into the ether and hope that they'll land. You've got to try and test these things and and get them. But with super cold audiences who have never heard of it, you've just got to be really realistic. And if you're really gonna go for them, then you need a huge amount of investment. Yeah, and so that comes back to funders. If they can give you lots and lots of money and lots of and lots of human resource, then then you're better set up to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

We've got to target the audience where you think you can have the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Absolutely, you always have to do that. That's a golden rule.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

So um I'm a stickler for planning. I love love a good spreadsheet, Alex. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Telecoding, all that was.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Oh, let's tell you what, we could do a whole episode of spreadsheets. Um what does meaningful campaign strategy actually include, though?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Um, yeah, a great question, and and it's almost like an interview question, actually, for campaigners. This is quite a lot on your campaign. Um there there are the fairly standard things I'm sure lots of your listeners are familiar with, you know, in terms of having a clear goal, objectives, timeline, and budget. But I think that a couple of the things that get sadly overlooked or rushed quite often are a really robust theory of change. So essentially how you're going to get from where you are now to where you want to be step by step, um, and and not vague and top line, but really digging into like actually what is needed, and that evolves over time, but you need to have something in place that can then be adapted. That's number one. Um, and the other one is is i I I hesitate to say it because it does sound dull, but it's really important, is KPIs and having progress indicators as well as your impact indicators so that you really can be seeing throughout time that you're making progress. Not only because then obviously you know you're making progress, but because you can report that upwards, you can report it to funders, and also you can see when you're not making progress, it really gives you the chance to say, what are we doing wrong? What do we need to change? Because there's a tendency to write a strategy that can be brilliant at the moment you write it, and within three months it's out of date because of the political context has changed, the funding's changed, your staffing has changed, whatever it might be, um, and you don't go back and look at it again. But having regular indicators that you come back to at least, you know, every quarter and have a look at as a team together, um, and it can be five minutes or it can be an hour, whatever it takes, just to look go back and check in and make sure that you're doing it right, is so important to you actually delivering what you want to deliver. So those are two things I would say are the most important for me that that regularly get over overlooked.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah. Um and and why do some organizations skip that process? So you know for me, strategy is always we're testing a hypothesis. Yeah. Would that we've inferred with insight. And then strategy is the work that everybody that you have to do to get there and who does what and how it works and how it fits together. Why is that skipped?

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I think there's often an impatience to deliver and pressure to deliver from people who perhaps aren't the campaigners.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Again, I come back to sort of leadership and funders, but quite often and board members and and and maybe, you know, other other other other organizations might seem to be progressing, and there's a bit of FOMO about, oh, why aren't we pro you know, there's there can be multiple factors and pressure on organizations to be deliver, deliver, deliver. Um, but actually you can be delivering, but it can be super shallow. Um and it might look shiny, but it's actually not achieving in the long term what it is that you should and want to be achieving as an organization. And that that can really affect morale as well as long-term support of your organization, right? Because I think people might see those things to start with, but then start to see through them a little bit. So I think it's I and I am definitely not one for spending ages on planning, but I do think that we should be spending more time than we are on planning generally. Um, you need the headspace for some really deep thinking together as a team to get it right. Um, and like I said, to be able to come back to it in the future regularly. But if you crack it right at the start, then it's so much more rewarding and so much more successful than if you just try and like quickly write something out and just tick it off and and get on with it, in my in my experience.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, no, I think I I I can't care. And how often should a campaign strategy be reviewed or refreshed?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Um, in terms of the check-ins, like I said, I I I I'd say look at it like every quarter if you can. Like look at just just to just a quick check-in to see how you're progressing. In terms of a full-on review, I think it depends on the length of your campaign. But for example, right now for a charity, I am helping them review and refreshing their campaign after three years. So they they're not fun fundamentally changing it, but we did ask the questions at the very beginning of like, you know, what's working, what isn't, do we need to change it? We don't, but we do need to refresh some areas. So, you know, I I'd say it does depend on the length of your campaign, but it's certainly healthy to do it every two, three, or four years. Um, and and and as well, actually, I would say, after a major event like a like a general election is super important as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Okay, yeah. So, yeah, strategy is a dynamic beast. Um it should evolve. Should never just be shoved in a drawer. Yeah, absolutely. Um so uh we're gonna talk a little bit about coalitions and collaboration. Um you've you've said to me before that you you were concerned that the sector wasn't investing enough in coalitions, like together was stronger. It felt a bit I don't know, fragmented.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I I actually just attended um the campaigning forum in Oxford a couple of weeks ago where I heard this even more from so many people, and there was such a demand for sessions on coalitions and how we can do it better. Uh, there's a real appetite for it right across the charity sector. Um because, you know, if you think about pooling resources, it's quite simple really. If you if you if you think about pooling resources and um the impact that you can have, not just in terms of your staff, but in terms of your supporter network and in terms of the investment you have together, you can achieve so much more. Um but I think that quite often organizations struggle to do this for a number of reasons, and and and some of them are completely understandable, but I think we need to work harder to to push through them. So one is um uh as we said earlier, people organizations have their own focuses, um, they have their own individual issues that they want to work on. And quite often when coalitions are built, they're seen as a tag-on, they're seen as extra work that are going to take your focus away. But actually, I kind of see it in a different way, which is that if you're starting a new campaign, always, always consider the value of is there a coalition that should be built into this campaign from the beginning? Um, you know, or is there an issue that we can't do on our own and that we need to inspire a coalition in others, and not to be afraid to seek that out, not to be put off by the complexities of running coalitions, which undeniably are there, but ultimately can get you to your final goal in a much more powerful way. Um I think that the other thing is um that sometimes puts organizations off is you you will inevitably have to compromise. And you know, when you've got things under your control in your organization, under your brand, um you can be much more in control of what's said, exactly how it's said, and so on. And again, I I I have sympathy for that. But ultimately what we're here for, and I'm sure many of your listeners are here for, is ocean protection. Um, and it's the same across all sectors, it's not just specific to ours. That ultimately, you know, there is a there is space, there is a time and a place and a space for having those individual campaigns, absolutely. But there is also a huge, huge missed opportunity, I think, for us to be working together a lot more in a much deeper, more meaningful way, um, to to sort of loosen up a little bit on those sort of concerns about control and to genuinely put investment and time and resource into working together.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Yeah, okay. I can having having having seen some of those organizations, I can see why just how busy they are, why taking on or working with another organization um if it's not built into the strategic roadmap is going to be a tricky thing for certainly for operation and campaign teams to to try and adopt. Uh definitely.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I think so that that there's a fear there around the complexity of it, but actually, if you did bake it into your campaign from the beginning, you very quickly see the benefits of it. Yeah. Because you'd be thinking through the sort of theory of change of having a coalition.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

You need to work with the people's popular front. No, the popular people's front. Which one are we? Okay, but what does a successful coalition actually look like? What does what how how how let's paint that picture for anyone who's listening?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, so I mean it it clearly is, you know, meaningful investment of time and stuff that are all involved. Um there's got to be a sort of unwavering commitment to shared goals um for the long term. Um transparency, which we've talked about before, like really great communication, you know, if an organization is feeling worried or is feeling uncomfortable, like there has to be transparency around that and equality between the organizations or equity between the organizations working together. Um and also like you know, volunteering time and stuff towards those tasks that actually hold the coalition together, so whether it's the steering group or a secretariat or how whatever whatever um form it takes. Um I think the other thing to remember is there are so many different types of coalition. There are some that are far more formal that do have that kind of secretariat function, and then there is there are networks, alliances, there are just sort of WhatsApp groups, you know, there's a whole range of different ways that organizations can be working together. So it doesn't have to be overly complicated if that doesn't fit what you need. Um, but ultimately there just needs to be a shared sort of acknowledgement that that is the best way forward and a a real passion and commitment to actually doing it that way. Um and and and bringing the egos down a little bit helps, I think, as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Um so we'll just talk about KPIs and measuring success. Um so you did raise a point about the importance of meaningful KPIs. Um I mean it's fascinating, isn't it, how how you design that and how do you even approach that?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yeah, it's it's tough. Uh it can be tough, especially if you're I think in in some organizations it can be easier than others. Um I uh well I hesitate to say easy, but like if you have like a service delivery organization, then you tend to have functions that kind of can monitor exactly what you're delivering for people and how many people you're helping and so on. But in an ocean charity, for example, it's not so easy because the dolphins and fish don't sort of give you feedback on on how you're doing, um, although sort of water human water users certainly would, which is great. There are so many different ways to get to get feedback and to get data. Um, and of course, it is very dependent on the on the issue you're campaigning on. But you know, you you absolutely need to have your baseline, your target, how you're gonna measure, how you're gonna measure it and how frequently you're gonna measure it, um, and having those progress indicators, like I said, is is super important, so it's not just about the end result. Um, but it is a discipline, it really is, and you have to have people in your organization who are up for it, who have done it before and can sort of guide you in that way, and the the the the sort of um the top-down sort of expectation that you're gonna report on those KPIs, because if there's no if there's no pressure to do that, then no one will bother doing them.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Um so that sort of is the infrastructure that you need around it, I think.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah. And how do you measure that success beyond the policy announcement or the headline win?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, another this is this is something we grapple with a lot in in the ocean sector, certainly, and um in the nature sector, I would say, actually, more widely. Um because ultimately what we all want to be able to um to report on or have KPIs on, right, is the impact in the real world, isn't it? Like we want to be able to say the ocean's definitely healthier, the wildlife living in it are thriving and so on. Um and how can we how can we get how can we get that information? Um that data is is pretty rare and difficult to get our hands on. Um but you know, there are ways to perhaps pilot it, to actually partner up with research organizations and go out there and pilot getting that information. There are organizations linked to government like CFAS and so on who are collecting some data, so just really mining as much as there is out there, academic institutions who are doing research out there, there are some great partnerships you can establish in that way. I don't think, I mean, it's a huge lift to expect anyone, especially an ocean charity, to be able to get all of the data that they would love to have, but um we've got to try. We've got to try more than we are at the moment because saying you've got a policy announcement or even a piece of legislation, that isn't the end result ultimately. It's a huge step forward, but it's not the end result. So I think we've got a ways to go in this sector when it comes to to that to that, but um there's definitely there's definitely ways in.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah, and we touched upon this before. Um it's not just about policy announcement and headline rent, it's about what happens next, monitoring enforcement, implementation. Um so important, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, absolutely, because that's what we're here here all here for, is to make sure that the the change that we've achieved at policy or legislative level is actually making a difference out in the ocean and life is getting better out there. And you can't do that without monitoring and enforcement and long-term commitment to that. So, yeah, it's it's it's unfortunately it's not looked at as much as it should be, but um yeah, I I always I al I'm always delighted when I see when I see that because it's so super important.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yeah, have a plan for it, if not speak to somebody who knows how to do that stuff. Exactly, exactly. Give you some advice. I don't know. Maybe you could talk to another organization who is doing it.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, exactly. And academic institutions, they're do they're collecting data all the time. You know, there's so many out there.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Great coalitions. Um so just looking ahead. Uh what do you think the campaigning sector needs to get better at over the next decade?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

I mean, I've mentioned a couple, so collaboration, I would say definitely, insights work, uh, digital innovation is another huge one, which is it cuts across all different industries. But I think one that I'm also deeply passionate about and I'd love to mention now is DEI, particularly in our sector and the ocean sector. It it extends across the environment sector as a whole, actually. But um we need to be much, much better at reaching out to audiences who don't normally engage on ocean protection. But um, you know, it's an incredibly white middle class um issue. This absolutely needs to change. You know, we need to hear from different voices, and we won't ever reach everyone who we could be working with unless people see themselves represented um in the work that we're doing. Um, and there is, I I know that there are some great people out there, including Yvette Curtis SAS and and many others who are pioneering this within our sector, and I'd encourage people to follow her and and others doing this work and and really get involved in the DEI side because there's a there's a mountain to climb, but I know that we can do it, and it's incredibly important for the future of our sector that we really invest in that and really spend time on that in the future.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Okay, fantastic. And because we are looking ahead, um, you know, uh we had uh an AI expert of Mary Kemp on in this series. Have have you seen the impact of AI tools or or the how people are receiving um campaigns change as a result of this technology?

SPEAKER_00 40:55

That's it's super interesting. I'm actually running a session on this next month. I run something called the Campaigning Leadership Forum. So any any leadership um campaigning leaders out there we'd like to join that, um feel free to get in touch. Um it's a it's it's it's so vast that topic in terms of how we could be using it as organizations, how supporters and other decision makers might be receiving information, tackling dis and misinformation. I feel like we're at the very beginning of that journey. Um I feel like the amount of insight and um and expertise that we need is not there at all yet in our sector, not compared to sort of big brands and corporates who have obviously the money to invest in that. Um I I am personally sort of at the beginning of that journey as well, trying to understand how that works and and how we can best support campaigners in in tackling that and understanding that. Um so yeah, yeah, I'd be fascinated to hear more about that in our sector um in the future. And yeah, it's it's a complicated one and but and and slightly terrifying, but also um I think there's lots of opportunity in there for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a um as is I think I said in in the episode with Mary, it's a runaway train and we're all trying to want to get onto it.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, on human legs, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Um so if a young campaigner is starting today, what would you tell them to focus on learning first?

SPEAKER_00 42:22

I think if they're I think follow as many of the charities you support as possible. Don't don't be held to just one. Um you know, follow the charities that you support and the causes you support, take their actions, learn as much as you can about all the different ways that organizations are campaigning. The quieter ways, the louder ways, and everything in between. See what you like, see what fits you and your personality, um, and just just absorb, be a sponge as much as you can. Um is my advice at this point.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Fantastic. And and don't forget to ask those uh questions of your audience to real quick. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Absolutely, and and tell your boss you need to do that too.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Okay, well, um sadly we've come to the end of the episode, which is also the end of the series. So you've been a fabulous guest, Alex. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your insights. Um if you could just give us like what action people listening today could take to support ocean campaigns or better advocacy work.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Yeah, go go online right now, find find an ocean charity and take an action they're asking you to take. That is the number one thing we can do. Honestly, with that, we need lots of people taking action, signing up for emails so that we we know you're there to support us.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Okay, brilliant. Thank you for that. Nice and simple, but impactful. Um Definitely. Fabulous. Um, so um that's the end of the sits episode. So sorry, the end of the series. I'll see you next time. Thanks, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

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