Ep. 23 - Stop Over-Explaining and Start Leading: Communication Science with Jen Nonn-Murphy

Summary

Have you ever walked away from a high-stakes meeting or a sales call realizing you spent the entire time speaking in circles? In this episode, Liz and Sarah sit down with Jen Nonn-Murphy, a licensed speech-language pathologist and CEO coach who specializes in the brain science of communication. 

Jen explains why smart, capable women often fall into the "over-explaining trap" and how cognitive overload—juggling value propositions alongside everyday mental loads like family schedules—can lead to rambling and lost confidence. Jen shares actionable, science-backed formulas to help leaders find their "grit," stop apologizing for their success, and start leading with clarity.

Key Topics

• The Pathology of Over-Explaining: Understanding why our brains hit "working memory" limits during high-pressure conversations.
• The "What, Why, Next" Framework: A repeatable 3-step formula to organize thoughts in real-time.
• The Power of the Pause: Why a 2–3 second silence is your most assertive leadership tool.
• The Goldilocks Dilemma: Navigating the fine line between being seen as "too soft" (a supporter) and "too aggressive" (not collaborative).
• Creating Supportive Cultures: Lessons from Silicon Valley on supporting other women’s voices and having tough, "clear is kind" conversations.

Action Items & Takeaways

• Practice with Frameworks: Use "What, Why, Next" to structure your business pitch or service descriptions to avoid circular talking.
• Anchor Your Practice: Link your communication practice to daily habits, like brushing your teeth or your morning commute, to build muscle memory.
• Utilize the "Power Pause": Give your brain space to process a question before jumping in to avoid "railroading" the conversation.
• Audit Your Tone: Strip away qualifiers like "I was thinking maybe" and replace them with decisive language paired with a collaborative tone.
• AI as a Thought Partner: Use AI to help draft communication frameworks, but ensure you maintain your human connection and authenticity.

Chapters

• [00:18] Sisterhood & Spring: College updates and life "life-ing".
• [02:38] The Over-Explaining Trap: Why we struggle to own our value.
• [10:06] Meet Jen Nonn-Murphy: From pediatric speech therapy to CEO coaching.
• [13:10] Brain Science: Working memory and cognitive overload in sales.
• [17:36] Tool #1: The "What, Why, Next" Framework (Live Practice).
• [22:42] AI in Communication: Using technology as a thought partner.
• [27:26] Tool #2: Pause, Then Speak.
• [31:41] The Goldilocks Dilemma: Assertive vs. Aggressive communication.
• [36:06] Supporting Women: A story on salary negotiation and first offers.
• [42:27] Shifting from Selling to Guiding: Advice for creative entrepreneurs.
• [45:11] The Gritty Journey: Lonesome Dove and prioritizing the "One Thing".

Guest Links

• Website: CCSpeechCoach.com (Take the Communication Self-Rating Scale!).
• Instagram: @clear_confident_coach.
• LinkedIn: Jen Nonn-Murphy.

Keywords
Communication Science, Female Entrepreneurs, Leadership Coaching, Speech Pathology, Cognitive Overload, Creative CEO, Sales Conversations, Women in Business, Assertive Communication, CEO Sisters Road Trip.

Want to learn more about what working with Liz looks like?  Head to Your Business Matters to schedule a Discovery call with her

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What's coming up ahead?

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Well, hello, Sarah. Well, hello, Liz. How are you doing today, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I'm doing really well. The sun is shining.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I know, thank goodness, right? Sun is shining and shining. I've got a new haircut, so I'm feeling just so spring, spring cleaning.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

If you had your pink shirt on, you look really ready for the spring.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

I know.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I did it, and I brushed my teeth.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I'd say you're ready for the weekend. I um I'm excited about today. It's I feel like we have not been together for a minute, so I'm very happy to be recording with you again today. So thank you. Yeah, I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Any updates?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Any updates on your family that we need to know? Um, well, the dog is home after a second bout in the animal hospital. She was diagnosed with Addison's disease. Listeners, look it up. It feels kind of like an autoimmune disease for dogs. Perfect. Um, but she is she is well. She is home. Everybody's happy to have her. The kids are great. Doug's awesome. Life is thumbs up. I believed you right until the end. So until the thumbs up. Life is lifing. Uh Abachusis, what's going on with your fam? We're doing two thumbs up over here. Oh, super. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

No, life is good, man. You know, the boy declared he's going to college at uh the Ohio State University. So we've taken that off of the list. I don't think Joan has decided yet, has he? Has he made it official?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

He has not made it Facebook official, but it is uh we will make it podcast official. He is going to James Madison University in Virginia. Woo! That's very exciting. And he will be visiting his cousin at the Ohio State University every other weekend.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I'm sure well, and vice versa. I'm sure Benjamin will want to get out and just go see his cousin brother, his cruther. His cruther. Oh, that's exciting. Good for both of them, psych for both of them. That's really fun. And now let the party season begin.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So yeah, I'm ready to get like midway through June. The next few months feel a little correct.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I have a question for you. I mean, it's it's about uh our guest today. She's going to be amazing. We'll tell you everything in a minute. But have you ever walked away from a meeting and you realized that you spent some, if not a majority of the time maybe speaking in circles? Have you ever felt like that? No. That's true. Never you. Me neither.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Absolutely. Yep, I have.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I I've heard I've heard that happens. As smart, capable women, we all often fall into the trap of over-explaining our value instead of owning it. And I've I've watched this happen so often where I watch people trying to explain their worth in a way that just feels circular and almost desperate. And they're not trying to be that, but I see that a lot. Today we're gonna be joined by Jen Nann Murphy, who is a speech path, and she's turned CEO of a CEO coach, actually, who's pulling back the curtain on some brain science to the science of communication to help us find the grit and speak clearly. This is so exciting because all of this stuff allows us to lead more with confidence and stop apologizing for our success. That line I love because we see this a lot. There was something on one of the Mel Robbins podcasts recently, and they were talking about how you know when men do halfway up a mountain, for example, they are like, We did it, we're the best, yay me! And women who have already gone up the mountain have already set up the entire camp and started the fire, and everyone's beds are made, and it's all the oxygen tanks are out. We're like, well, just it was a team effort. We all did this together. So true, we really do. I know. And I'm uh I'm excited to to dive into that a little bit and see how we can maybe uh stop apologizing and just do it. So, hey everybody, welcome to CEO Sisters Road Trip. And today we are joined by Jen, and Sarah and I are excited to get into the pathology and spirit of communicating clearly. I wanted to uh before we bring Jen on, let you know that today's episode is brought to you by my children's elementary school speech pathologist, Ms. Maloney. Miss Maloney was amazing and she did, I mean, truly, she was like a magician. My all the kids had the all's and the W's and the L's and all of that stuff that as a little kid you don't ever want it to go away. But at some point, you know, it probably would be helpful to have it go away. And she switched that right up tootsuite. I remember one day it was like, oh, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Good at her job, very good at her job. And listeners, um, I unfortunately can't share my speech therapist with you because I loved when my kids couldn't say their alls so much that I refused to get them therapy. I wanted them to say their alls like this until the gals came home. And on their own, at some point it went away because well, they probably had therapy in school, speech therapy in school without me, but um, I did love that age. There's nothing more beautiful than when a little one comes up and talks to you, and the alls are still awing.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Oh so fun, so cute. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm excited about this episode. I think it's gonna be really fun.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

All right, so let me share Jen's bio with you, real quick, listeners. Jen Non Murphy is the powerhouse founder of Clear and Confident Speech Coaching, where she blends her deep clinical expertise as a licensed speech language pathologist with high-level leadership coaching. With a background in communication sciences, Jen doesn't just teach theory, she specializes in the actual brain science of how we speak and how we connect. She has spent her career helping leaders navigate high-stakes moments from high-pressure sales conversations to complex conflict resolution using repeatable formulas that actually work in the real world. Most recently, Jen has been making waves in Silicon Valley working with groups like the Women in Construction to help female leaders find their voice in notoriously male-dominated spaces. When she's not helping CEOs stop over-explaining and start leading, you can find her dating the latest AI technology to streamline her business, listening to some old school Huey Lewis, thank God for the Huey Lewis, or listen or drawing inspiration from the gritty endurance of her favorite book, Lothsome Dove. Welcome, Jen.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

We are so excited that you're here. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Thank you for inviting me. I uh been looking forward to this for a couple weeks.

unknown 7:35

I know.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Since our first since our first date, which actually no, our second date. I think our first date was on the um, what is that what was your parade called? The Christmas parade? Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yes, the downtown holiday parade, just to give everyone some some context here. Liz and I met. Sarah, were you there? Because there were so many people. No, no. All right. Our dear friend turned 50, and instead of having a traditional party, we marched down Main Street of Pleasanton, where how many people were there, Liz? I mean, it was wall-to-wall.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

It was wall-to-wall. I was not expecting it to be such a massive event in Pleasanton. And I we were walking and we're like, what? Where are we? It was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah. Cowboy hats, uh, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Blow up horsey, whatever those are called. Yeah, yeah. The blow-up costumes.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

This is our first meeting. It was uh a howdy, howdy 50th birthday to Jenny. So I feel like that was a really good beginning of the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Agreed. And you all are a very fun group of humans. That was an amazing event. You were all very welcoming. It's so fun and so funny. And it was that was a great weekend. That was really, really fun. It was great.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I remember getting some live videos from it. I remember you were sending home live videos saying, You will not believe where I am. I'm actually in a parade.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

So funny.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

And can we splice a photo?

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Can we like splice it and like add a photo right here of the uh what we do because we need to see Jenny in um on the float. Jenny was on the float, which was the best part for a minute. It was epic. That was great. And then so when my sister and I, when Sarah and I started uh this podcast, Jenny immediately said, You have to invite all of these amazing friends of mine who have businesses and are general badass superhumans. And I said, Heck yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

And here we are. Here we are.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Here we are.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

I'm glad I'm I'm glad I made the list and that I'm I'm one of the first. So I'm I'm very excited to share with you kind of what I've been doing and also have some conversations around helping women and professionals with communication in general. So very excited. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

All right. So yeah, okay. Yeah, let's jump right into it. All right. So, Jen, you moved from being a licensed speech pathologist um to a communication coach for CEOs. So tell us about the moment you realized your clinical skills were the missing ingredient for female entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

I want to uh let let the the audience and you know, I am not, I have not stopped being a speech and language pathologist. I had I wear two hats. So part of my week is doing the thing that I has started my career with that I love, and that is helping pediatric uh speech and doing pediatric speech and language pathology. I also realized it's been about 10 years now, that everything that I have done in the world of speech and language pathology, all of the neuroscience, all of the uh techniques and skills that I've been teaching uh young people can also be taught to adults and professionals. And it is a it is an area that is missed and that is overlooked quite a bit. And so I just have another bit side of my business, and I I started that about 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I love it. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, I love this.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

I I I love how you're focusing on women now, and I love the first of all, I first of all, this episode, we always do a little, this episode is brought to you by. So I brought this one was bought to us, brought brought to us by our my speech pathologist that my kids had. I do think what you do for children and for kids with any with a myriad of speech issues is miraculous. I I grew up educationally, we talked about Lindamu Bell before, and learned the Lips program, and I had no idea just how complex these little sets of teeth and the tongue are, and it was stunning. And so I think I understand this much of what you do, but what I think I love so much about how you have taken that knowledge and the cognitive piece and how you've switched it into helping people like me and helping people like many of the folks that I work with who are constantly over-explaining what they do. And so I want to thank you for all the stuff you do with the kids, and then I want to thank you for all the stuff that you do for all of us. So, thinking of how, and you and I talked about this before, how many of us do overexplain? And we start to share features and before benefits, and we get nervous, and so we talk ourselves in circles and in circles. And uh yes, Sarah, Sarah, or or we get stuck. I've watched this on one of your videos, Jen, where you were saying your brain and your mouth aren't matching, and you sort of forget where you were going, and you're like, is this menopause or am I just broken? Or what's going on? Um why do we do this? First of all, I see it hurting us in sales calls and presentations and negotiations. Why cognitively do we do this? And uh how is it hurting us?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Uh, I want to add two things before answering the question. First of all, I want to say that there is no such thing as perfect communication at all. I've been studying this for 30 years. I definitely am gonna get off this this uh podcast and say, I wish I would have said that differently. I should have added this. We all have that in ourselves. So let's just take the pressure off of us of saying that communication needs to be perfect because it it it that's an impossibility. However, I do think what uh my goal is is for people to just increase their awareness, their awareness around communication and make that at the forefront of of the obviously of conversations, but also about written communication and just being being really present. And I think what happens is things are moving so quickly that we fail to do that, and our brain has limited working memory. So in these high pressure moments, sales call, you know, a pricing conversation, you're simultaneously managing all of these things, your value proposition, your pricing, how you sound, how you're being perceived. I also work with men. I don't want to, you know, men have this issue as well. But I think the one thing that women have on top of that, this cognitive overload, is when is soccer practice? When is the when is how what are we having for dinner tonight? And and we just have these additional tasks. Uh I don't want to stereotype that men don't think of these things, they absolutely do, but women just um have it a little differently. And I I I don't know if there's excuse me, science around why that is, but I it and it and that just comes from personal experience as well. So what I see is rambling, talking too quickly, apologizing for things that you're saying, losing structure mid-sentence. It's just this idea of your brain on overload.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah, I mean, as you were sharing that, I was getting sweaty because I was like, that's exactly what happens that rambling, the forgetting in the middle, and I've done it and I've watched it, and you try to just be so kind, knowing that they're probably gonna catch up to their mouth in a second, and then when they don't, and everyone's like, ha ha, it's okay. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yes, I've seen it time and time again.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Uh and I love the idea, you said, you know, increase awareness. There's a line that I learned years ago about conscious awareness. And once you're consciously aware of something, it's hard to unhear it or see it or know it. They use the example of a buzzing light that you weren't even aware of until someone says, Do you hear that buzzing? And then that's all you hear. Or, you know, did you know they have this new red car? And that's all you see. So being able to bring that focus and attention to speech sounds delightful. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Well, I had Sarah, you had raised your hand when I mentioned when we talked about this. What do you have examples of things?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

I would yeah, I feel like it's um a very timely conversation. I just I feel this a lot. And like Liz said earlier, it we don't know if it's a symptom of menopause. Is it a symptom of um I can't wait till I hear more about what you have to say because in the end I want to be more aware of this, but yeah, I'm guilty of having a concrete idea. I'm better in writing than verbal. When I have something that I, oh, this is the point I really want to make. I get talking, I get flustered, I get, ooh, that this idea. And then I transition to here and I move all around. And I just went from feeling really solid in my footing and feeling like I had a really good point I wanted to share to being rattled and like, oh crap, now I look like a fool because I don't even know where I started. Yeah. That full circle, like kind of chaotic brain thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yes, yes. So one of the things that I would like to talk to you about are some tools that I think have been very helpful for my clients and myself. Right. And as I've, you know, not the speech pathology business, but the communication coaching business, there's a lot of different ways I offer this. So I, you know, there's workshops. I just did a workshop yesterday around email etiquette, but then there's also one-on-one conversations that I have with people where we do that digging down deep into what is specific and unique for your situation and giving people tools. So here we go. This is not for everyone, but some of you will um it will register. So, two tools that I want to talk about in regards to that over-explaining the first tool is thinking and speaking in frameworks. Okay. There are lots of frameworks. I'm gonna teach you one of them, but this concept of under pressure, your work, your working memory is already maxed out. So these frameworks act like a like these mental preloaded structures. So it reduces that cognitive load from your brain so that you can organize things in real time. An example I have is one client I work with, this um described it, you know, he said we're learning these communication frameworks, him and I are, we're going through all these different frameworks, and he he equated it to like, I'm learning these soccer plays. He's a I think he's coaching his son's soccer team. I've got all these soccer plays, so I study these soccer plays, I practice them, and then in the heat of the moment and the pressure's on, I don't have to think, I just run the play. I just run the soccer play. So that's exactly what these communication frameworks do. And I'll give you, I'm gonna give you an example of a communication framework. The one I want to talk about and then have us practice is what, why, next. Okay, what, why, next. So we our brains like things in threes.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Three little pigs, three blind mice, three wise men, three wise women, probably. There's probably more than that. But so before, so before you speak, you want to put these things into boxes. Think of your head. I mean, this is so Linda Mood Bell, too. It's like these visualizing boxes of the like, for example, what you do, why does it matter, and then what happens next. So, you know, in in almost like single sentences to keep your to keep your thoughts organized. So for me, like for me, my what is like I help entrepreneurs communicate their value under pressure. Why that matters is because unclear communication is is have is costing you your sales. Okay, what's next? Let's let's do a deep dive into exactly what's breaking down for you.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yes, ma'am. What?

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, why next? Correct. That love this. Why next? So can I challenge you? What is your what? What is your why? What is your next? Can you can you do it on the spot? I know I see you jotting some notes, but what do you think? Does anyone want to try it?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Sarah, you want to try it?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Uh my what? I I mean if we're just talking business, I am a small batch potter. I'm an artist. I work out of a studio in my uh backyard. That is my what. That is my why. I do it because a, I love it, I enjoy it, I am inherently creative and enjoy using my hands. Um, and I like to bring unique, one-of-a-kind pieces, functional pieces for people to incorporate into their daily routines. The next everybody should have a piece of Sarah Jane pottery in their life. Yes, very nice. I don't know about the next, but uh the what and the why. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Liz.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Well done. Next is go to Sarah Janepottery.com.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

That's it. That's true. Go to Sarah Jane Pottery. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

All right. My my what do I do? I am a business coach for female business uh female entrepreneurs, mostly in the creative space, but also in the service space. Why it matters. I do, I help them to increase profitability, revenue, confidence, clarity in their business so they can make better intentional business decisions. What to do next? Schedule a discovery call with me. Well done. Exactly. Exactly. Hi five, everyone. We did it. Hi five.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Hi five. So the goal is that's not the only framework. There are many, many, many frameworks, but that's how you organize your thoughts, and that's how you speak with clarity. How can we let's let's talk AI? Yes, you know how can we use AI before to to to create these frameworks? How can you know you have a big call coming up? Um you you can ask AI to help you draft your what, why next. Um I always say AI should be used as a thought partner, not as a replacement of you as a human. I mean, I I don't know about you, but you can I I can tell when things are written by AI.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

And so we we need to use AI. I I am a big proponent of using it. If you don't use it, especially where we are sitting, you know, in our careers, we're gonna get left behind. Yes. Yep, yep, yes. But use it thoughtfully and in a way that is supportive of your communication.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

I love this. I I am a big proponent of frameworks. I talk about this a lot as well, whether you're talking about how to define your pricing, how to define your service models, how to define your team. There are frameworks, and it helps, you know, if you're able to understand your values and your culture and your vision and your goals and all those things, lead to that framework. So, of course, there would be a framework in how we speak. Thinking of the other big tool, and you didn't say this, but you did, is practicing. It doesn't the people I liken this to every time my children watch any sport, they say, How are they that good? And we then I look at them and they're like, fine, I know, practice. Yeah. Because none of this is magic. Yes. Yes. We're not born with this skill that makes us an amazing speaker or an efficient communicator. It's practice and practice. You mentioned the framework, and I will use a story. Two years ago, I was asked to do my first paid keynote for not the company I worked for, and it was a big deal, and it was a friend of mine, and she said, We're having this thing, they're gonna send me to Mexico to do it. And I had never done a pre- a keynote like this. I was opening the retreat, and I present all the time. I do workshops for years, I have no problem, but this felt so different. And so I built my my story, what I wanted to share, and it was very succinct. And I had just finished a whatever, a speaking course at like how to build a story. And uh I practiced it, I kid you not, 70 times. Yeah, I spent seven, it's and probably more than that, but once I finished it, 70 hours of practice on that. And I had never felt more confident ever in my life presenting. Like my the uh clicker stopped working, the tech wasn't working. Didn't matter for the first time ever. And so that your your framework and practice. Can you talk to me about like cognitively the role of practice in that? Because I don't think there's some magic in it, and it wasn't just me.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

No, and I think uh from the the work that we've done with children, we know there are different learning styles. Everybody has their own learning style. I know I'm a visual learner, I know that about myself. Everyone really should know where their strength is in regards to learning. So uh utilizing your practice in a way that is meaningful for you. Yeah. And and having very intentional practice. So if I meet with clients and I meet with them once a week, and then we're meeting for you know six weeks in a row, they they know their call to action is okay, you're working on the you know, the what, why, uh, what's next framework. You're use you're utilizing at it in your work environment, uh, intentionally and in real real time, but also, you know, when in your car, you know, in your when you're by yourself. Either practice needs to be anchored to something. So um I always say to people, do something something that you do every single day. So brush your teeth or you're driving to work. It it just it's embedded into whatever you're doing every single day so that it you so you don't forget about it. We are you know what happens. We just get the day goes by and you go, Oh, I forgot to practice. I forgot to practice. But if you anchor it to something, then you're more likely to do that that activity.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

I love that. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah. So practicing was the second tool? No, the second tool is Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, the second tool is pause, then speak. This is hard. This is very challenging to do. Um because this idea of we if we're gonna use frameworks in in our communication, we need to give our brains that space. It doesn't take long. We are quick, we're quick on our feet, but this idea of speaking and organizing your thoughts at the same time is complicated. And so while you're talking and thinking, the organization isn't isn't there. So let's let's give ourselves a moment to pause. I you know, I wanted to kind of have this discussion for you with us, uh, between the three of us. Why do you think people don't people don't pause before they communicate? What are some reasons?

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Insecurity.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Um I think they're in their minds are already over talking the person who's talking, so they're just ready to answer the next thing. Right. Yeah, they're not listening to the other person, so they're ready to like exactly not listening.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

I like that. The the disdain for silence. Again, I guess that's still sort of insecurity, but people hate pregnant pauses, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

I I I think that I want to encourage people to use the power of pause. I think it's very, very important in communication. One of the reasons I've heard that people start to speak right away is because they think they're not gonna get another opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Is that for men and women? Yes. Oh, interesting. That's super interesting. I would not, I would okay, I'm gonna have to watch this.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

It it almost feels like it becomes a gracious act, too. So by pausing, it allows yourself to kind of formulate, and you can share more, but what it does for your personal, but it also is kind of a sign of respect, like I'm not going to own this conversation and run railroad over you while we're talking. You're giving them pause, you're pausing, so it gives them time to feel like they have an opportunity to speak again, right? Like a kind gesture, like a dance of communication where you get to you allow them to have an opportunity to speak.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

That opportunity to speak, and also I like what you said earlier, which is giving your brain this, and we're not talking five seconds. Five seconds is too long. I mean, your brain needs two to three seconds, you know, to like process. But what happens is someone asks you a question and you jump right in. And you jump right in. And as opposed to even like that little non-verbal, you know, that little let me let me give give me a second here. And then it's it's just it's super powerful, and it's hard to do, it's very hard to do again. This consciousness. Um, so I this is something I've been trying for the last few years to really think to myself, okay, pause, gather, then say what I want to say.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

I love that. And I'm watching you do it now, so you now you're under the gun. I'm watching. I know, and she does do it. I've been watching too. And conscious awareness, I'll be watching everybody. I have a dinner tonight with a bunch of friends who never stop talking. So it'll be interesting to see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Now, okay, groups of friends, and I am terrible at this, okay. I get I have a margarita, and that whole thing is out. There's no more pausing.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

There we go. It's the margarita.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

It's not you. This is definitely the margarita.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I love it. That's great.

unknown 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

So that was the second tool was um that the pause and then speak. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Jen, as women, we often spend all day softening our communication for our children, for our spouses, for those closest to us. How do we flip that switch to an assertive, clear communication in a business meeting without feeling like we're totally losing that warmth and our personality of being gentle and soft?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Have you guys heard of this Goldilocks dilemma? Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

I know Goldilocks pricing, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

You'll have to teach me that later. I'm not really sure.

unknown 32:11

Fine.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

It's this concept of finding the just right. Okay. You know, not too soft, not too hard. Um and it's not that there's just these two options, right? Um a lot of women say uh they're too soft in their communication. They'll say, I was thinking maybe we could, or what does everyone think? Uh they don't you're just this is a you're just seen as a supporter, not a decision maker. And then if we walk in and we go, this is what's happening, this is what's gonna go on, then we're seen as too aggressive. Whereas a man a man says the same thing, and wow, they're they're decisive. So we have this problem, and we it absolutely happens. I think that how we combat this is this idea of being assertive, not aggressive. And we've heard these terms before passive, assertive, aggressive. So how we might do this is taking away those those um caveats, those qualifiers. You know, we w we don't want to use those qualifiers like maybe we should. Um, but I think tone plays a huge role using decisive language, but making sure your tone sounds one of collaboration. And and there's an art to that. It's one of those things where you have to practice it and you have to ask for feedback. I think a lot of the times we don't know what we don't know. And so you're in the back room, people are chatting. Gosh, she is really aggressive. What is up with her? I don't like her tone at all. But nobody says anything. So how are you supposed to know this?

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Um I don't know if that tells me. I feel like with many, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. So I you nailed it right there where you know a male man can come in and have a very tough, high-level, big picture, very direct conversation, and they are the best. And we do the exact same thing in the exact same way. And what I must be on my period. What's wrong with her? Why is she so angry? All right, like all of the things, and it is irritating, and I feel that even more in email. So, you know, I think to your point, you can see it in a room, and you may or may not hear it. I just actually had a conversation with a client this week about that. He said they to my face, they say everything's fine. And then what I hear from our anonymous reviews, it's as if I'm the worst human ever. And so we hear this a lot. But I'm concerned about the tone piece because in email we make up our own tone. In texts, I mean, if you don't like this person or you're already irritated, that is the rudest text ever. Yes. As opposed to, let's meet tomorrow at 3 30 is what you wrote. And this person's like, why is she so angry about 3 30?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yes, period, because you put a period. So you know, thanks, period. No, that's not gonna work. Um not always appropriate in business situations, but I am a huge proponent of of uh emojis um because it it creates the tone. Okay, you know, let's meet at 3:30 party face or whatever, you know, like that sets the tone. You don't always get that gift in written communication, whether it's an email or uh in a text work-wise. So very to be very cautious about that.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yeah. I want to switch gears. We speaking of women, not if we're not male, this is not the she woman man haters club. However, no, however, we do know that a having a culture, having a group, having a community around these things matter. These communication is for for women in business particularly, is is it's fraught with lots of little fun caves and holes. You I know recently spoke at a women in construction conference, uh, and it was in the Silicon Valley, which is where you live in in California, which is not surprisingly very male-dominated. What did that experience of working with those women teach you about how to walk through life and feel heard or the need for a community? What did you share a little bit more about that experience?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I would like as women and men, but but what I learned is that this idea of creating a culture where where communication feels supported and comfortable. And what I mean by that is a couple of things. That we support each other's voices, not just your own. That I I I have an example for this. My daughter graduated from college. She she went off to her first um job offer meeting. She sat in the the meeting with this woman. The woman said, Here's your offer for your for your salary. And my daughter said, Thank you very much. I I'm excited to work here. And the woman said, Nope. And my daughter's, what do you mean? She goes, I'm gonna tell you what my first boss taught me. You never accept the first offer. This is a gift I'm giving you because you need to learn this as a woman. So I'm gonna say this offer again. You are going to say no. And how refreshing and rewarding is that?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

I have goosebumps. I have goosebumps.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

She told me that and I went, God bless this woman. I mean, she really taught my daughter something. And and and what is that? So, this idea of supporting each other. The other thing that is that I think that we as humans need to do is feel comfortable, people feeling comfortable asking us questions. Okay. I work for this organization, I'm helping them with our internal communication culture because for years and years and years they had a uh a boss who shut down everything, meaning like somebody had a question. What kind of question is that? Why would you ask that question? Just just belittling and making people feel uncomfortable with their questions. So, guess what happened?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Nobody asked any questions.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Now we're in nobody's asking any questions. They're in these meetings and everyone's like silent. And it's like so we're having to reverse that. So, really being a person that has an open mind and heart for all of the questions that come your way. And the next thing I would say that I've learned in the Silicon Valley um world is being okay with being comfortable having tough conversations. And I had this was years ago, I had a woman call me. I were I've worked with her. I was a client of hers, and she said, Hey, I want to give you a heads up. At the time I was really heavily in social media, and so I was posting a lot of things on on assignments that I was um on. And she's like, You posted something that is proprietary, that a photo of something, the client's not happy. She had the she had the guts to call me and give me the heads up. This isn't the way I want you to be represented, Jen. You need to change. In addition to that, she sent me a whole list of hey, I think you should post about this, I think you should post about that. Very supportive, very but if she hadn't called me and told me that, how would I know? I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

And I was in the complete dark about it until she called me.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

I love, I love all of this. The the and it's so simple of creating a culture through communication and with your peers and people in general, yeah, that is supportive and comfortable. And these are not fluff words. I grew up having a CEO who believed that that kind of communication was weak, was fluffy, was woo-woo, whatever negative way you want to say it. And it's simply not true. I I in the my guts of everything I believe, I know that when we rise together, we all win, first of all. So I don't have a scarcity mindset. So the simplicity of being supportive and creating a sense of comfort for people through your actions and your words. I mean, that's just that's just how to live. That's right. So I love the I loved your examples. The the tough conversations in business are tough. You know, I had to terminate many people, I've had to have really hard conversations. And what I've learned over time is the power of those tough conversations. And there's a line that I always go back to is that clear is kind. Yes. I'm not being unkind because I have to have fire hue right now. It sucks. It's not no one's gonna be happy at the end of this, but at some point, I hope that you can see how kind we were, I don't know how clearly we were able to understand, you know, help you understand why this was happening. Because it's definitely something that, you know, should we be able to, you know, find another position for you? I would like to do that if we can see this clearly and kindly. So I love that. Thank you. So good. I um want to talk a little bit. I'm gonna steal one of Sarah's questions, and it's about sales again. So we've we've learned a lot. We've learned the what, why next, we've learned the power pause. Yes, power of the pause, but I'm calling it the power pause now. Okay. Let's do it. And the power, the the importance of supportive and comfortable environments for all the things that we're doing for you know our business and for ourselves. And one of the pieces where I know people start to overexplain is when they're in this sales conversation. So you've talked about shifting from explaining to guiding in the these sales conversations. Our core audience, and Sarah's will use Sarah as an example, it's the creative person, right? A an artist, someone who does creativity works and may not be as comfortable in a quote unquote hard sell, or feels icky about selling art or service. How do we shift the energy from explaining or selling to guiding? What's an idea you have for that?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Specifically for the creative person like Sarah? Yeah, let's start with that. Yep. Okay. I have thoughts. I uh I have thoughts. I think that shifting the energy towards the person, the potential buyer, and being and being asking intentional questions um and not having the answer right away. I think sometimes we try to problem solve. Um, you know, like, oh, I think Sarah, for your, for your example, like, oh, I think this piece would be really good for you. I think this, you know, I oh I think this. Instead, just being more inquisitive and being genuinely curious about people and having really um honest conversations and just building that relationship first before as a as a as a as an honest I w I don't want to say strategy because it why does that sound gross? You know, as I it does, I don't want it to sound like that. Um because it you know, communication is about is about connection. All communication is about connection. So that's Sarah, that's what I think Sarah's trying to do is make connections with people.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Absolutely. I think you nailed it. I mean, think about the times I have had successes. It is developing a rapport and not a friendship necessarily, but developing a rapport and they're asking questions back and forth. And I mean, they may not buy something at that show, but they may call me two weeks later and say, now I have an idea. I want to do this, or are you willing to do this? So I 100%. I think just being authentic and inquisitive.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

That's great. Sarah, do you have one more? We have time for the question. Let's go to the lonesome dove.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Um we always ask, we ask our guests their favorite books or musics or any of those fun trends. And uh somebody here likes the lonesome dove, which I haven't thought about since I was little, and my dad loved those books. Loved the lonesome. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

I've never an old one. It's thick. I gave it to a friend the other day. It's like this thick. I gave it to a friend the other day. She's all oh, I don't know. She goes, maybe not. It's it's it's long.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Go ahead. But it's amazing. I mean, in these books, there was a list that we had a book list before, like probably last year. I was looking at Lonesome Dove was on it. Another one, I mean, it's a classic. I need to read it. I've never read it. So tell us, go ahead, Sarah. What's your question?

SPEAKER_01 45:43

I just listened to the correspondent and they talked about the lonesome dove in there. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

She reaches, yes. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

She writes to him, right? Um, okay, so we know that the lonesome dove is a classic tale of a gritty journey. If you had to pick one frontier or a major challenge that you are currently trekking through in your business, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 46:08

I think the challenge that I currently am facing is knowing where to put my energy.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

I think I have a lot of irons in the fire, which is fantastic. I really like that. But I am a one-woman show. So I am I have a lot of support. I loved your podcast where you talked about creating a board. Um, I have a board. They're fantastic. They may or may not know I'm they're on my board, but they're on my board.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Good. Good job.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Yes. Uh and I just I the the the tricky part about knowing there's only so much time in the day, there's only so much energy where to put where to where to put that energy. And so that it's fulfilling for me, but so that it's also fulfilling for my clients and my my my audience, you know, which I you know let's just lead right into this. I I think that the things that I do on my Instagram, on my LinkedIn are for the masses, meaning I want to increase everyone's communication awareness. And I want people to be more thoughtful about what they say, how they say it, and listen to other people. So constantly just educating people, educating people, which is that speech pathology side of me.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

So that is my current that's your gritty journey. And you know what's funny? So I say this a lot. The cycles of conversations that I have every week, they group together in a way that's so interesting. Because I don't know if I'm doing this or this really is the theme of the week. What you just said has been the theme of this week for almost all of the clients that I've worked with, where they're feeling pulled in a thousand directions. So we've been doing prioritization exercises. I've been redoing and helping people with project lists and SMART goals and all these things like all week. And I wonder if it's spring. I wonder if we are all just we say yes, which we know is important, and then we say yes to our detriment because we need to know when exactly to say no to that. So it's just funny that that's uh what's on your list today. I just did it, could be one of my greatest to-do lists of all time for one of my clients. It was beautiful. I feel so good about it. I love a good priority list. It was fine.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

I I'm interested. I'm very interested.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

It was a big one. It was a big one. You know, when you know when you're saying over and over in your head, like, I just feel like I can't breathe. I just, it's not working. Sarah, show us what your head looks like. You showed me this morning. Can you show?

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Oh, I I closed them. Earlier, we were on a call this morning, and I took my camera off and showed her. I have a set of drawers behind me that have about eight drawers. Every single drawer was open and things were coming out papers, wires. And I said, Here's here's what I want you to see. This is what the inside of my brain feels like right now. This open set of drawers. I did just hear something and I and I practiced this because I was feeling this way. I have so many different priorities, and how do I know where to go? And it said just identify what is the one important thing out of your list of 12 things you should do right now. Identify one thing as being the top priority, and it may not be, but just identify one, and then from there, do one thing to move that forward in that moment. And all of a sudden, all of the wires in your brain will soften and settle down a little bit and say, Oh, it's just you don't have that clear direction of what to do next, so you get frenzied. Just pick one thing and then do one towards that, yeah, and then it everything slows down.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

I love it. That's that's uh that's our huddle every day. We we say, What's the one thing that will move business forward? One thing we all have a million things. What's the one thing that will move business forward? And it does soften everything. I love how you said that, sis. It softens it.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yes, yeah, one thing today, and there's got to be something tomorrow. But we're not worried about that. Today. Today.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Well, we have come to the end of our time, our friend Jen. So my last question for you is how may our listeners get in touch with you, follow you, learn more about you?

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Where do they go? Yes. Well, I'm glad I said yes to the two of you. Yes. Because it, you know, I did I didn't really feel like it was on my to-do list, but there is prep, you know, in in doing this, and and and I loved it. I, you know, I I it makes things clear to me. So I appreciate that. Um couple things. If today's conversation made you think, um that I do have a communications uh self-rating scale on my website, which it makes you think about yourself and your own communication. So I want you to rate yourself honestly on the statement. Discover your communication, those strengths or things that you, you know, greatest opportunities for growth as opposed to weaknesses. Yeah. Those vocabulary terms. But yeah, it takes five minutes. Um, it shows you exactly where your communication is costing you. So take that on my website. Um, I'm sure my website will be linked here, but it is um cc speechcoach.com, which stands for confident clear communication. CC means clear confident. And then um, I do have an Instagram, uh clearconfident coach. Um, follow that. That would be great. And then look me up on LinkedIn. I'd love to have um again, I like I said, I monthly I put communication tips out there, and if they help people, that's that's what they're for.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

I love it. I like I said, I watched one or two of your videos on your website, and even those little snippets of uh what I know are longer courses, I already felt better. And I was like, hi. Good. I know. Thank you. It's really you're very good at what you do. So I appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for being on this journey with us. As always, everybody, thank you for being here. We hope you uh had a wonderful time learning from our new friend Jen. And good luck on this amazing journey that we call life. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Jen.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

It was a pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

What's coming up ahead?