The CEO Sisters' Road Trip

Ep. 29 Carrie Norin: From Science to Ceramics

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0:00 | 45:26

Summary

What happens when a high-achieving evolutionary biologist leaves a prestigious academic career, handles the chaotic logistics of a three-boy household, and unexpectedly finds her true creative voice in raw clay? In this episode of the CEO Sisters Road Trip, sisters Liz Szporn and Sarah Trueman sit down with Carrie Norin, the brilliant founder of Matte Porcelain Design—a luxury line of unglazed, matte porcelain wearable art. Carrie takes us on her journey through a profound identity shift, detailing how she traded her "Type A" academic grind for an intentional, family-focused creative lifestyle. Together, they break down the beauty of Wabi-Sabi (the intersection of perfection and imperfection), the subtle guilt women face when shifting gears, and why we need to reclaim the term "lifestyle business" with pride. Carrie also drops invaluable wisdom on running a one-woman show, choosing high-vibe wholesale accounts over grueling craft shows, and leveraging AI to balance the workload.

Key Topics

  • The Identity Shift: Transitioning from "Dr. Norin" running an intensive science program to find therapeutic refuge working with raw clay.
  • Reclaiming the "Lifestyle Business": Shaking off the ego-driven narrative of infinite scaling and celebrating a business intentionally designed to prioritize your family and well-being.
  • The Aesthetic of Wabi-Sabi: Embracing organic, imperfect forms while honoring the raw, tactile porcelain material through precision hand-sanding.
  • Intentional Wholesaling Over Consignment: Moving away from direct-to-consumer craft shows and high-stress consignment agreements to form deep, high-buy-in boutique partnerships.
  • Yoga as a Creative Catalyst: Quietening the analytical "Type A" mind on the mat to unlock genuine bursts of personal and professional clarity.
  • The AI "Colleague": How Carrie effectively balances a solo business by treating AI platforms (Claude and ChatGPT) as critical debating partners.

Action Items & Takeaways

  • Audit Your Business Ecosystem: Evaluate your current client and retail channels. Don't be afraid to whittle down accounts (just as Carrie dropped from 20 down to 5 vital stores) to protect your peace and energy.
  • Demand Retail Buy-In: Avoid the pitfalls of consignment where vendors have zero skin in the game. Prioritize wholesale partners who are financially invested in your brand story.
  • Train AI to Debate You: Don't settle for a digital "yes-man." When prompting tools like ChatGPT or Claude, intentionally ask them to poke holes in your logic or offer critical counterarguments.
  • Schedule Distraction-Free Mind Time: Step away from the screens and create a meditative boundary (like a yoga practice) to let your subconscious mind work through complex entrepreneurial bottlenecks.

Chapters

  • 00:00 – Sisterly Banter: Backyard landscaping, "smoker's laughs," and Liz’s legendary Madonna theater audition.
  • 03:31 – Welcoming Carrie Norin and introducing the luxury brand, Matte Porcelain Design.
  • 10:46 – The Pandemic Pivot: Deciding to step away from the multi-city commute to anchor into family life.
  • 14:20 – Overcoming the "Just a Jewelry Maker" Mindset: Ego, women's liberation, and career guilt.
  • 19:08 – Redefining Success: Embracing a lifestyle business that honors the season you are in.
  • 22:13 – Discovering the raw, earthy feel of unglazed porcelain and the philosophy of Wabi-Sabi.
  • 27:42 – Ruthless Boundaries: Transitioning out of public art shows and shifting strictly to high-end wholesale.
  • 35:34 – From Lab Coats to Yoga Mats: Accessing vulnerability and professional breakthroughs on the mat.
  • 39:01 – Solo Entrepreneurship: Streamlining operational logistics with the help of AI.
  • 42:42 – Supporting Small Businesses: Where to find Matte Porcelain Designs locally and how to stay connected.

Resources & Links Mentioned

Stores mentioned:

Keywords

Female Entrepreneurs, Small Business Scaling, Lifestyle Business, Ceramic Art, Jewelry Design, Pandemic Pivot, Intentional Living, Wabi-Sabi, Business Boundaries, AI for Entrepreneurs, Yoga and Creativity, CEO Sisters.




Want to learn more about what working with Liz looks like?  Head to Your Business Matters to schedule a Discovery call with her

SPEAKER_00

What's coming up ahead?

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the CEO Sisters Road Trip. I'm Sarah, and alongside me is my sister Liz. We're your co-pilots here to help you flourish in your business and your everyday life. Each week we share relatable stories, strategic advice, and a whole lot of laughs as we tackle the real challenges. Finance, marketing, vision, and team. Get ready to find your clear path forward and have some fun doing it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that was a good job. Good job. Look at you. That was the first take, sis. Yeah, you're good at reading sometimes. That was impressive. And there was a typo in there, and you didn't it didn't even trip you up.

SPEAKER_02

It was on did you just hear that smoker's laugh?

SPEAKER_03

That's what I want today. I want an episode filled with Sarah Smoker's Laugh.

SPEAKER_02

With my grandma smoker's laugh. Oh man. From the night.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like forever. I feel like whenever we laugh really hard, that comes out.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I guess.

SPEAKER_03

Not really smoking related. Just funny.

SPEAKER_02

Listeners, completely non-smoking related. We quit that way back in 1999. We we we didn't smoke. We we why are we even going here? Stop.

SPEAKER_03

Happy Friday. We move to another Friday. Congratulations on Jonah's graduation. Your party was amazing. We were talking this morning. Ellie and I were um, she was saying how peaceful our yard feels. And I said, it's a lot shaggier than Sarah's yard. So if you and Doug could bring your exquisite uh outdoor grooming skills to our house, we would really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02

I, if we were being honest, we had some help this year. We did not do it totally ourselves. I mean, Doug definitely rebuilt the stairs and we planted flowers, but we didn't do the edging this year.

SPEAKER_03

It just it's listeners, she has this um humongous gorgeous front yard, which is always beautiful and immaculate. But then the backyard where her studio is, where she is right now, is this the light dapples beautifully. There are several layers, and there are trees and bushes, and it's it is as if an artist had a backyard and did what they do in plant form. That's what you want.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's sweet. That's sweet. It does feel like that. It does feel serene back here. It's gorgeous, and it's shaded, so you don't have to be in the heat of the day. It's gorgeous. Everything about it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that was funny. Thanks for inviting me to your party.

SPEAKER_02

And thank you for everything you did because Liz, when she comes to my house, she comes always bearing gifts. She has a full poo-poo platter in bags ready to be plated. She usually has a half a case of wine or or so to share. And she just she's like the energizer bunny folks. She never sits still. So she just comes in and let's move this, let's do this, let's up, up, up, up. So I am always so grateful when you come here. It was fun. Even if you were to sit on your tush and do nothing, I would be grateful for you.

SPEAKER_03

I did. Mom took a picture of it. We did that one time for five minutes. Yeah. I I actually did put my timer on because I needed to tan my legs. So I sat down for five minutes. Oh, good. Good girl.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, anyway, thank you. That was fun. And yeah, congratulations, Jonah. You did it. Yeah. On to Benjamin.

SPEAKER_03

On to Benjamin. Good week. This is fun. This, this, I it's it's been a good couple weeks. This is we're having a good run. We're gonna say that. Yeah. That's nice. And today I'm very excited. I'm so excited. We're joined by uh in a minute, we'll be joined by a woman named Carrie Norrin. And I met her, talk about this with her. I met her at an art fair up the street where I love to go just to look for creatives and to buy beautiful things and meet people who are doing cool things to come on the show and share with us. And she will not disappoint. She's a luxury matte porcelain, has a has a luxury matte porcelain wearable art brand. Say that five times fast. And wait till you check out her website.

SPEAKER_02

Her work is exquisite. It is beautiful. It is so it's so high-end. I cannot wait for this conversation. Yeah, it's beautiful. She's and she's so cool. You said this yesterday.

SPEAKER_03

Like she's so cool. I know. I know. She seems so she's gonna she's gonna take us on a journey from her past as uh her past life, where she was an environmental scientist and she was a research director and to her her pivot into ceramics over the uh COVID pandemic, which is what so many people did, and I love how she did it. So she's gonna talk about how she was intentional and is taking it slow while prioritizing what matters most to her, and it is her family at this moment. Not that it wouldn't be ever. Right. But this is always a time-consuming moment, as we as we all know. So I'm excited to to have her share her story with us. I love it. This episode is brought to you by the Canton Cultural Center for the Arts. Ooh, yeah, I think Canton because that location inspired little baby Sarah Jane McCall um to play with Mud 45 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And uh she never looked back. So thanks, Canton Cultural Center for the Arts.

SPEAKER_02

You also had some ties to the Canton Cultural Center. I did.

SPEAKER_03

And that's where my musical career started.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, where I did an audition. We probably talked about this before. No, I don't think we have. I auditioned for Annie after seeing the movie about 400 times and singing every song, belting at the top of my lungs at age 11, 10 or 11. And we went to uh try out, and I didn't have um any idea what I was doing. And they said, What song will you be singing? And I chose La Isla Bonita by Madonna.

SPEAKER_02

Oh God.

SPEAKER_03

Oh gosh, you did. I did. Oh, and you were such a sweet child.

SPEAKER_02

Chubby little Liz a cappella singing. If only we had that on tape. Oh, I would splice that in so fast.

SPEAKER_03

Gosh. Uh everyone, I'm sorry to tell you that that song did not land as well as expected. I was not asked to return. They said something along the lines of, hey, nice work. Don't call us, but we're gonna call you, okay? And I was like, okay, so later.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, of all the songs.

SPEAKER_03

Did you not? Did you not have a song? No. No, that was my own genius idea.

SPEAKER_02

That's so good.

SPEAKER_03

It was good.

SPEAKER_02

Anyway, thank you, Canton. Thank you for launching our love and passion for the arts. Correct. Correct. And I would say, I would have to say Mary McCall had a hand in all of that as well. Always. That was her second time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Oh, because it was right across from the women's, the women's uh guild. Women's guild. Is that what it's called? I don't know. Women's club.

SPEAKER_02

Canton Women's Center.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I loved it. I'm excited to uh to bring Carrie on. So let's go talk to her. All right. Hi, Carrie. Hi guys. How are you, sisters? You're doing it. Welcome, Carrie. Yeah. Welcome to the show. I I love that uh we're doing this. And we did, listeners did maybe talk about this before that she has the most beautiful, glorious, heavenly backyard, and we were thinking that's where she would be coming to us from. And now she's not gonna show off in that way.

SPEAKER_01

No, it is 86 degrees already at noon, and I am afraid of being very sweaty. Being very sweaty, and there's always bees. Um there are, yes, we have a lot of like wasps and yellow jackets. I bet you do.

SPEAKER_03

You have a lot of pollinators around, I believe, outside.

SPEAKER_01

Meanwhile, I'm a big fan of pollinators for the record, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Of course, we need them, except when we're doing podcasts and they want to go down your shirt, and we don't like that.

SPEAKER_02

Or up your dress.

SPEAKER_03

Do you remember that time? Oh my gosh. Yeah, Sara was a it was a couple of years ago we were at Sarah's house. I was trying to impress her sister-in-law that I haven't seen in a long time, and her daughters who were super cool, and we're sitting outside having a glass of wine, and a bee goes up my skirt and like stings me twice. I rip my entire dress off.

SPEAKER_02

She literally rips her dress off running around screaming, like they're like crazy lady.

SPEAKER_03

They're like, What is wrong? I did not impress Amanda. She was not impressed. No, no, she was not, and I think her kids were frightened. They're like, This lady's insane. This naked lady running around.

SPEAKER_02

They did like your underwear though.

SPEAKER_03

They were like, Was it matching underwear? It was. It was black and black under the black dress. So it could have been a lot worse.

SPEAKER_02

She got lucky that day.

SPEAKER_03

So, yes, good choice, good choice to be inside. Um I wanted to just I read a little bit of a bio earlier, but I want to read your full bio because I think it's it will set the stage for where we want to go. So today, everybody, we have Carrie Norrin, founder of Matt, which is a line of unglazed matte porcelain wearable art. She holds a graduate degree in evolutionary biology, just like me. Just kidding. And spent years studying plant genetics and building a prestigious graduate level high school research program at Princeton Day at the Princeton Day School. Uh, during the pandemic, while she was managing the logistics of a chaotic household with three young boys, she found therapeutic refuge in working with raw clay. And today she balances her thriving, highly selective wholesale jewelry business with a dedicated yoga practice and raises three competitive baseball players, all in the beautiful state of New Jersey. So welcome, Gary. We're so excited that you're here. Oh, it's so great to be here. I really appreciate the time. I mean, this is great. So let's start with the first thing. We're gonna start with your story. We heard a little bit about it. I think of it as an identity shift. So you were teaching, you were running this scientific program at this school. It was a big deal. You you COVID hit, you were managing some things, and you came to a little bit of a fork in the road. So let's start, let's start there.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Um, I had just left my job at Princeton Day. Um, it was a wonderful experience. Um, but my kids were going to a private school in Yardley, Pennsylvania. I was teaching in Princeton. We lived in Hillsborough. My husband was up in Morris County at work. And they were small enough that at one point it sort of made sense. Um, but as they got more into baseball, it really was not um tenable anymore. So we moved up to Chester. Um, I said goodbye to my amazing job that I loved. And I really was planning on setting up a house for about a year and then finding another teaching job up here or something science education or curriculum building or something. And the pandemic hit, and I was stuck with these amazing children that I was remote learning with and doing jigsaw puzzles with and gardening with and hiking with, and all of a sudden, everything was at home and very intense. And so when I was at PDS, I uh my best friend was the ceramics teacher, and she and I um just had some fun. She knew that I wore some funky jewelry and was like, you know, you can make those with ceramics. And so we would go down any prep period I had. Um, we would pour some porcelain and then fire it and hook it up to, you know, ear hooks, and I'd wear my crazy creations, and I felt like it was fun. But that was really it. And then when we moved and we had all of this crazy time, um, I found that the studio was more of an escape and a respite and a place where I could, you know, be myself, find that creative voice, have some zen, have some alone time. And it really became such a fun gig for me that because I can't keep idle, I sort of blossomed it into, you know, the precursor of Matt Porcelain. And so, um, yeah, I think that was your question.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, that was right. That was great. Because that's, I think that that happened to so many of us. We we get, we're happily doing what we're doing. It's working well enough, but there are so many different phases that pop in. And so you sit there, you're like, we're it's working for five years, and then pandemic or not, like we can insert any sort of uh transition time period, and you're like, this isn't working anymore. Just even when it was working, the fact that your kids were in Pennsylvania, your husband's in Morris County, you're in Princeton, your Hillsboro, and driving to Princeton, which is not super far, but not close. I mean, all of that. Right. I mean, our mom says this to us all the time. She'll she'll be like, I don't know how you guys do it. And we're like, you just do it.

SPEAKER_02

You just do it.

SPEAKER_03

You do it. You look back. You do it until you're like, no more.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And and then you have such pride in what you did, and you never want to go back there again. And so that can be, you know, that season, and now it's time for a new one. Yep. But it has been quite a shift.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and and there was a line that you said, and I think it was when we first chatted, where you catch yourself saying all right that I'm just a jewelry designer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so there's a little bit, and I I've felt this, I think, Sarah. I think any of us who transition from any sort of career, any sort of passion, any sort of thing that we excel in, we have this transition point and this little bit of uh insecurity, fake it till you make it. And uh so why do you think that's so hard for you? Why do you think that your confidence, you know, was lacking and had you say, I'm just a jewelry designer. And and do you still feel like that?

SPEAKER_01

Uh probably yes. Um I'm getting over it though. I'm working on it. I've been thinking very deeply about this. And I if I'm talking from like a yogi perspective where I've really marinated with this on the mat, um, I will it's distilled to one word. It's ego. It really is, and I don't mean ego as necessarily I'm so much better than everyone else. It's an ego of sense of self and how you're assigned a particular identity. And for so long my identity had been the, you know, type A personality, go to school, get the prestigious degree, show off with all of your, you know, cachet. And it's silly, and and but it was what gave me value at that time. And so, you know, when you have all your students calling you Dr. Norrin, and you just like you're on top of your game and you feel so stimulated by the work, and it was such a wonderful place to be. And that I think was part of the ego thing. I also was thinking, though, um, interestingly enough, we're the children of one of the first generations of mothers who worked outside the home. And I think, for better or for worse, we were gifted this amazing women's liberation message from birth. You know, like I had books that were like, you can do anything because you're a girl, you could be a scientist or an astronaut or a lawyer. And it's just like, I embodied that and I internalized it so deeply. And I think because I was so type A, I was like, well, that means that I'm gonna be the best and do, you know, this particular line of work. And I think that in this big transition, moving from like a very intense natural science career. I feel like I'm letting down some of like my female ancestry and like I'm transitioning to more of a maternal and creative and nurturing lifestyle, which is freaking awesome. It works with what my life is right now and what a blessing it is. But for some reason, I think that that shift has a little guilt in it for the womankind, if that makes sense. Um, which is kind of ironic because feminism truly means like we have the choice to do whatever the heck we want to do, right? And so in one moment of my life, I was incredibly satisfied and complete doing the work and yes, managing a crazy life because of that. But now I'm in a season where I want to intentionally focus on my family and my children as they're still home. That's a whole other story. Um, but it is that is feminism. So I don't know why I I have such a disconnect there, but I've been working on it.

SPEAKER_03

I I don't think you're alone. I mean, Sarah, Sarah and I over the years have talked about that thing a lot. I I've probably said this on the show. I I there are days where I will be doing something outside of an office building in the middle of the day. I'm not kidding you. I am compelled to say to no one who asked, not one person asked me this, I'm on a lunch break from my job. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01

You have to you have to justify your relaxation and your choosing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And it's like there's something that ego is exactly the right word. That sense of self for me is so entangled in being a professional, in being a what I made myself believe is success. You know, and so it's it is it's it's hard. Um, and I think Sarah, you had this probably many times over the years just because of our lives were so different.

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh absolutely, but I I do think there's a beauty in being able, as we're talking about, just transition in general, to transition into a new, like you're saying, it feels like a more maternal role right now. And if we would step into it with confidence and just trust that this is the season for that, because your seasons, you're you may have four more seasons before you're done with your career. You may go back to what you were doing before, or you may continue down this path. I just I I I wish I would have adopted sooner or you know, in my 20s, 30s, 40s, which you just can't until you have experience, just embracing wherever we are. The last season set you up and prepared you for this season. And this season is going to prepare you for a future season. And I also find it very interesting that no male on the face of the planet is saying these same things, they are not justifying any of this at all. So it's so interesting how this is just where we as women sit.

SPEAKER_03

There's a there's a gentleman named Jeffrey Shaw who's written us several books, and one of them is called Lingo, and it's all about the power of speaking and marketing and language. And I love him. But he also wrote a book called The Self-employed Life, and he was speaking at a conference I went to, and he started by saying some question about how do you feel about, or why does it sound like when people say it's a lifestyle business, why does it sound like it's a put-down? And why is it overly female business owners that have this quote unquote lifestyle business? And he was like, he goes, I get mad about that. He said, the purpose, the the reason the vast majority of people, entrepreneurs, start their own business is to support their lifestyle in a different way. They're looking for more flexibility and they're looking for more freedom. Everybody, I don't want to work for anybody anymore. I want to pay myself what I want to pay, I want to do what I want to do. That's why people start businesses, the vast majority, right? And he's like, Yeah, this phrase um, you know, lifestyle business, everyone's sort of like, ew, that's sort of gross. Another ego thing. And he's like, that's the whole purpose. Why, why can't we embrace it? And I wish I would have heard someone say that 15 years ago. Because that's exactly right. Like this business, I don't need to scale it to seven million dollars. No, I don't want that. I want to make plenty of money to support my lifestyle, my col kids' college, and my family. That's it.

SPEAKER_01

It reminds me of what you were talking about last podcast, I believe it was. I think I'm I think it was the last one. Um, when you went to that AI conference. And you mentioned the the quote that everyone just like, which is your business is doing what you designed it to do. Yes. And I am currently designing it to be a wonderful compliment to my family, but it's not that I need to be there 24-7 with deadlines and stress and because I don't want that right now. And it's a be it's a luxury, trust me. I am very well aware that I have a very correct luxurious choice here. Um, but it is something that I'm gonna take advantage of if I do have that.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely, absolutely. Did did Liz tell me that you have a graduate too? A son graduating this year.

SPEAKER_01

One week he will be. Ah and I'm solved here too, just like you're I know.

SPEAKER_02

I you have three of them, which is just amazing. Um, but I I found myself even just in this season, literally the spring season, as it's my firstborn's graduating year. Um I pulled back in my pottery business because I said, I've come so far, I'm not willing to miss anything. I don't want to miss a game. I don't want to miss an award ceremony. I uh and I do a luxury too. I have the The ability to be able to pull back a little bit because I'm creating my own business. And if that's my priority for this little season, I feel like this is what I'm going to do. And I we have that in common, obviously.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so the name of your business, we love the name of your business. Matt, named Matt specifically because you chose not to use glaze on your pieces. Creatively speaking, what drew you to that raw tactile porcelain feel? Was that from your friend? Was it something you kind of adopted on your own?

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting because when we did um experiment with some jewelry, my friend Steph and I did use some glazes. Um, so I think I gravitated more towards that aesthetic because it just aligns with sort of my vibe in general. I love raw and earthy. I used to play with dirt. I love to hike in the forest. I need like, you know, patchouli and smoky tea. Like I just love everything that's very root chakra, if you will. It's just really natural. And when I feel the raw porcelain and I feel like a very small grittiness, and I can sand it to a beautiful smoothness. But I think it's really, it speaks more to the um the material itself. But I think I probably also learned a lot of that aesthetic like through my grandma. She always had very like a lot of neutrals. And even though it was sort of rustic and earthy, there was always a sophistication to it. And I do love the idea of wabi-sabi and the intersection of perfection because it is something that I have been dealing with in my, you know, I don't know what wabi-sabi is. Yes. Okay, wabi-sabi is the beauty of imperfection and sort of the embracing of something that has a blemish or is a little asymmetric, um, which I really do gravitate towards. I love organic shapes. I really like if I'm you know decorating my home, I'm gonna find a vase that is just a little off or very like handmade feel. But I love the idea that matte porcelain cannot be if I want it to look smooth, I can't have any blemishes. So I can make a wobbi-sabby shape, but then I go and sort of perfect that. And I, you know, I sculpt it and I smooth it and I make sure that when it's out of the kiln, it's sanded again, and so it feels perfect with an imperfect form. And I love that juxtaposition. Matte porcelain really allows me the ability to honor the material, show that I can perfect imperfection in a way. I need therapy for that one. Um, enjoy that organic feel. So it sort of just works.

SPEAKER_02

Did you have any art background? Like anything as a child that stood out?

SPEAKER_01

Did it I have always been very artsy, both visual and performing arts. It was actually funny when I went into college for science because I was the president of Drama Honor Society. I was in all the talent shows of every show, every musical. I I would go to open mic and play, you know, my with my guitar and sing in these random coffee shops. Oh wow. And I remember I did have a third grade business called Carrie's Creations, in which people would buy binders at like wouldn't even be Target, it would be like Bradley's at this point. Um and they would come to me with like a regular old binder, and then I would take my puffy paints and sequins and I would personalize it and make it theirs. I think I charge like five bucks.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01

And they got their pretty little carry creation. So I've always had like this weird artistic entrepreneurship. Um, I always made little jewelry, I I doodle, I draw, and I take a lot of photography. Photography is really my secondary big um life in art. You two are sisters from another mystery. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_02

We really are.

SPEAKER_01

I heard you had some uh young artistic entrepreneurship.

SPEAKER_03

We also had a puffy paint business. We sold we did. Puffy paint we did. We sold um visors at the pool. At the town pool. Yeah, they were these little plastic visors, and we Sarah would paint people's names on them and we'd sell it. What what was your money motivation, Carrie? Or was there was there a money motivation?

SPEAKER_01

No, I probably would have done it for free, but my mom is like, oh, this is a business. What are you gonna charge? And I'm like, oh, I have to make money with my art. That that makes sense. Yes. But she's like, well, you're buying all these paints, you know, you have to reimburse yourself. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I guess that makes sense. But I would have done it for free. It's just the process, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I mean, our motivation was candy, so we would have done it for candy. Heard that about you guys.

SPEAKER_02

We did, we did like the candy, that is for sure.

SPEAKER_03

It's amazing we don't have the diabetes, but we're good. So we met, Carrie and I met at an art show right down the street from me because I'm lazy and I go only where I can walk or drive five minutes. And uh I was immediately drawn to her. She was actually, she was across the aisle from my son Benjamin's old lacrosse coach, who turned painter. The artist, yes. I love sweetheart, yeah. And then I turn and I see your beautiful booth, and I was like, oh my gosh. So we then, when we spoke, I said, so do you do this all the time? And you said, actually, no, that was my last one. You just said you put the nail in the coffin for art toast. I'm done. You're like, it's over. And I love, I want to, so I want to talk about this because you made a very another intentional decision that Matt is going to exclusively focus purely on high-end wholesaling. So we we can talk about where people can find you in a minute, but you also refuse to do consignment when you're selling, which I think is great. So, how did you find the confidence there to make that decision? Or maybe it wasn't confidence, it was just a, you know, a purely time-based or it's the wisdom of five years in.

SPEAKER_01

I, you know, like I started this not knowing a thing, and I fell into it and I loved it. And I I think because of my excitement, I wanted to do everything. So I was not only sculpting little pieces of jewelry, but I was content creating and getting all on Instagram and really enjoyed that whole part of it. We could talk about that later. I wanted to get into stores and I wanted this and I wanted that, and I felt like I was just throwing lots of spaghetti and a lot of it stuck. So I was like, all right, well, I should go in that route, and then I should go in this route. And I felt somewhat um ADD about it just because it was a little too much and very, you know, mini successes here and there. And so I, you know, like I didn't want to get rid of any kind of customer, be it a wholesaler consignment or direct to consumer. But after a while, I started just getting a little wiser. I realized that I did consignment, I think, with maybe two or three stores when I was starting out. And each time they weren't the best um circumstance for me for my pieces. They didn't have any investment in my pieces. They couldn't really, you know, once you buy something and have to sell it, you want to talk it up, you want to talk about the artist, you want to bring people in, you want to connect, you know, your customers with that piece of art or the artist. And I felt like they didn't have that incentive. And there was somebody who broke a piece and she was like, Well, I'm I'm not paying for this. And I of course it's fine, it's porcelain, sometimes it breaks, but just that immediate response was very off-putting. And so I realized that with you know, delicate and handmade and you know, wonderful little pieces that I was going to give to the world, I said, I think I need to be much more intentional about who's carrying them. And it's interesting because at the beginning, probably within the first year or two, I had about 20 stores, pretty much all in New Jersey, and I was really excited about it. And I have actively whittled that down to about like five to six stores that constantly restocking and have great relationships with with the shop owners. I mean, we have text messages, like we're just buddies, you know. I'll come in, we'll hug, we'll talk about our kids. That's what I want. They I want them to be able to know me so that they can talk up Matt in the more authentic Matt way. Um but I also, you know, in terms of shows, I love them. I love talking to people, I love meeting new people. And I I really am sad to see that go. But I think right now I need to just push pause because the amount of time and effort, I have a dining room that I will just set up my entire um display. I'll price it, I'll shop it, I'll walk around, I'll see, does it flow right? That takes me a good week plus. You know, I'm making signage, I'm doing this, I'm even, you know, buying more displays that I don't need because I already have displays, but I'm like putting new and special and pretty. And so, you know, and then I've got the full, you know, days of the show where I'm not with my kids, I'm missing sports, my husband's like, ha. And it's just, it's not where I need to be devoting my energy towards. And so after a lot of soul searching, um, I realized that besides my website and my Instagram that I enjoy maintaining, um, I think just really focusing on finding, and this is sort of where I'm at right now in terms of like where I'm building the business, really getting a line sheet together, really knowing what I can mass produce and what I can't wholesale ever just because of the price um profit margin. And so it brings me closer to my work and understanding how I work as an artist, what I'm able to do, what boundaries I want to set. And I think it's going to work.

SPEAKER_03

I love how you shared the you said it was like um it was new, I was excited, I want to try everything, and I love it. And so the decision came out of that wisdom of watching everything. There's a term that we talk about, it's this uh diagram of a it's called the survival trap. And if you could picture a circle with all these arrows coming out of it, going every single direction. That's sort of when we start. We're like, let's just see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then if we're doing it right, right, and we see that actually 10 of these aren't working. What's and we learn more clearly of what our vital need is, right? So now we the we start honing, these arrows drop away, and uh you're you now know the vital need for you is time, is flexibility, and is um buy-in or passion connection with the business owner, if you're gonna do that way. So I mean, there were so many lessons in that answer that are just they take people years to figure out. So I thank you for sharing it because it is one of those things, because you're so intentional in how you're doing a lot of things, at least now, five years in. I mean, what you're doing are saving you so much time for two years from now when you have, you know, only one and a half kids home because they're getting, you know, are they two years apart? Is it like that? Well, yeah. So you'll be doing this again. And you're like, but I'm that much more focused. So I know that spring show that took me three weeks to prep for, I'm not even gonna have to do because I have filled my financial bucket so well. So good.

SPEAKER_02

There is something so special about when you're at a show and you're meeting people and getting to share it. But what I love is that you have, even if it's just five right now, five sounds amazing, five really nice, tight-knit relationships with people where they're you're just exponentially growing. They're helping you and they're bringing the right client. So if they like her their store, her store, their store and more pieces, it just keeps growing that way. It makes me feel like one avenue for you could be um like a pop-up shop within these stores where they get to meet the artist and just see how lovely you are and share your story with them and without all of the setup and build up and all of that buy-in.

SPEAKER_01

But yes, at least. No, I've done that a couple of times and it has been really advantageous. I think it's gained me a lot of relationships, especially in these locales. Like I think that's the most important thing. That's what I'm learning is that there are certain demographics that you sort of have a Venn diagram of like people who have the resources and people who appreciate art. And there are many of those, you know, that neither here nor there. Um, but when you find that sweet spot where they really want to support artisan work um and can, it's those are the the zip codes.

SPEAKER_03

That's I mean, that's the essence of scaling. So let's say you did want to scale this into something not that we talk about this so much, but truly understanding your ideal client. And not it's not the ideal client, it's your ideal client. Who do you want? And where are they and what do they do? Who are your ideal vendor relationships? I mean, and you have the the more specifically we can not lock that down, the better everything is. The marketing's easier, the selling's easier, the pricing's easier, because you know to whom you're speaking always. And they they're psyched.

SPEAKER_02

Um, all right. So you've gone from studying plant genetics in toxic cities to practicing at Diana Yoga Arts twice a week. How does yoga quiet your analytical mind? And does that change the way you sculpt your pieces? Does it have play a part in the way you create?

SPEAKER_01

I I did a little bit of yoga back in the day. I actually have this very cute picture of my third born, I think while he was potty training with the yoga journal open reading my magazine about yoga when he was like two. Um, so it's definitely been a part of my life for a while, but I really rediscovered it probably five, six years ago. Interestingly, right around when Matt was born. Um and it has been a very transformative piece of my life in so many aspects, in terms of my own mental health, in terms of my relationships, in terms of my parenting, in terms of my creativity, in terms of this newfound confidence of boundaries and really being able to speak up and advocate for myself. Um something happens when I'm on the mat. And whereas old school Carrie, when she was doing yoga, maybe, you know, 10, 15 years ago, would be more of that perfectionist mindset looking around. Am I doing the right posture like everyone else? Am I in the right downward dog? Where am I, you know, the the head spin was crazy. There was just so much noise and chatter. And I don't know if it's an age thing or where I am in life, but when I walk into the studio and I get on the mat, there could there was literally an earthquake once, and we we definitely had to stop. But like there could be a bomb going off. And I am so in my zone. My eyes are closed 90% of the practice. Um, I'm really both in the moment and as well, like especially during Shivasana when I'm sort of marinating in all of the breathing and the blood and the oxygen. Um I I talk to myself. I am I'm thinking about my relationships and how I'm showing up for people, or how I'm not showing up for people, and who I really need to like reach out to more, or I shouldn't have said that to my son. Maybe I should apologize today. And I'm going through all of like the self-therapy. I also do a lot of like creative thinking on the mat. So like that's where it sort of can connects with Matt, porcelain, um, where I have, you know, these real great bursts of creativity, either like a shape or an idea that would never have come to me with all of the distractions of life. And so it is an open, receptive, vulnerable place that I have allowed myself. And it I think has hopefully made me a better mom, a better person, a better artist. But I think it's been a wonderful experience for me. And I am the first one to proselyze and say, everyone should try yoga, and don't say you can't do it because you're not flexible or because you're never been good at it or you're not athletic. You can sit in child's pose or in a cross-legged position and just deep breathe, and that can be your yoga practice for the day. It is just a moment of deep breathing, stretching, and internalizing sort of the goodness of the world. So can't say anything about it.

SPEAKER_03

I I want I have one question, one last question, because we're almost out of time. My question is about your love of AI. So you go from being this creative to this yoga, uh, you know, deep meditative philosopher who's very present and oh. And then you're having a love affair with AI like most of us are right now. So you mentioned in uh you reached out through Instagram on one of our posts, and you said, I would love to talk about this because I you also said you have two subscriptions. You're a Claude cowork person, maybe not co-work, but Claude and a chat GPT person. And then you love the Canva. So you also have this graphic design love. What is the best way you found a harness AI to take some of the mundane, time-consuming things out of it? Because when you were talking about the person, there's also AI. So it may not be a person that you need.

SPEAKER_01

So it is by far the best tool I've used to work independently and manage the massive juggle that is a one-woman show. Um, I will primarily use chat and Claude to organize my thoughts and to sort of get a handle on the tasks I need to do. And then once that's sort of nailed down, I'll go and say, okay, so I need to have a post every few days, you know. Give me some ideas, you know, what is like a trending reel right now in the world of ceramic arts, you know. So, oh, why don't you pour some porcelain? And, you know, so then, and then I will always write first because I think you mentioned this on your podcast last night. It's so obvious when you're reading. And I've tried it a few times and I put it out there and I'm like, that doesn't sound like me, it looks fake, uh, and I get all the ick ick from it. Um, and so I will sort of write out, if anything, bullets, but really just like with my voice, you know, some kind of post, some kind of, you know, prompt or whatever. And then I'll make sure that it's like, you know, there's no typos and it flows better, and like that they put the sentence up here. And I'm like, oh, that that works so much better. And so there's a lot of back and forth. Well, what about this? And then I'm probably my carbon footprint is not very good. I know. What about this? Are you sure about that? What why don't we try it this way instead? But it is that it is the person in my lab or my, you know, department who is bouncing back at me. And I know that I need to be very cautious because, you know, some colleague I had in my Rutgers, you know, ecology lab was not so sycophantic and that's a great idea, Carrie. What should we do next? You know, and so I need to counter that. And I have tried and trained and tried with like these, you know, instructions. I don't want to have a yes man. I want real critical debate. I want you to make sure that I am not speaking out of, you know, whatever this, that. Totally. And what you said though is so key.

SPEAKER_03

Like you're you're very thoughtful and again, intentional here as well. Is you're not just taking the answers and going for the like the way some in my house may use this. So the the I love the all of the things that you said in there are just very much in line with what you do anyway. You're very intentional. You're spending time front loading it so it gives you at least a better baseline, and then say, prove me wrong. Why is this a terrible idea? Why does this not make sense? Tell me a better, you know, what's wrong with everything that I've said. And if anybody, if if that's the biggest takeaway, I want that because it's don't trust the answer. You may not like it. Or, and please read the answers. Yeah. Ladies, we've come to the end of our ride today, and I love this ride with you. Thank you for being on this trip with us today. How can people find you, Carrie? How do they reach out? Where do they go? What do they do?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I have um a an Instagram page that I update, as you know now, daily. Just love sharing how I make the um the porcelain. You can watch the process, you can, you know, see photos of my work and me. And um, so that's Matt at Matt.porcelain. And then I have a website. Uh www.metporcelain.com. It can also be found by mattporcelain design.com, but you know. Whatever you feel like.

SPEAKER_03

Whatever you feel like typing. And then stores locally. If you're if you're lucky enough to be in the garden state, there are stores and I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Okay, so in Senate, there's Maison 53 in Westfield, soon to be Millburn. There is the Life. Um, Merzada carries my work in Morristown. Danielle is a fabulous jewelry designer on her own, but has given me some space there. Um Maker and Muse in Maplewood. Um, I'm probably forgetting some and I feel bad. Urban Muse in Denville. So um, these are all wonderful spots on their own, and you can find some map there.

SPEAKER_03

Great. And we love supporting small businesses. So there we go. Thank you so much, Carrie. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, listeners. Yeah, this has been great. I appreciate it. Everybody, don't forget to like and subscribe and rate and review and all of the things on any podcatcher, wherever you're listening to this, it matters. We appreciate you. And until next time, please remember your business matters and it really matters to us. So keep doing what you're doing. And thanks, everybody. Have a great day. Bye.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. What's coming up?