The CEO Sisters' Road Trip

Episode 31: Designed to Pivot with Kathleen Penny

• Liz Szporn and Sarah Trueman

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 46:58

Summary 

Ever wondered what happens when a seasoned corporate recruiter trades eighty-hour workweeks for a design portfolio she didn't even own yet? In this episode of CEO Sisters Road Trip, Liz and Sarah sit down with Kathleen Penny, the founder of KLP Interiors, to explore her winding entrepreneurial journey. From her early days as an office manager to her bold leap into design school at Moore College of Art and Design, Kathleen’s story is a masterclass in being intentional, inclusive and having the courage to pivot into a whole new world. 

Together, the trio dives deep into the high-vibe reality of running a referral-based design business, the emotional toll of being a chronic people-pleaser, how to build a small team based on chemistry, and the real way creative experts can leverage AI as a high-speed "intern" without losing the personal touch.

Key Topics

  • The Power of the Pivot: Moving from corporate recruiting to interior design and why careers are circuitous, not linear.
  • The "Expert's 10 Minutes": Why high-level spatial awareness and years of intuitive skill are worth premium pricing, even if the on-site fix only takes ten minutes.
  • The Double-Edged Sword of People-Pleasing: How caring deeply secures a 95% repeat and referral rate while demanding strict boundaries to avoid burnout.
  • Building a Team on Chemistry: The art of hiring in a small business and creating a space where employees grow into new roles naturally.
  • Interior Designer vs. Interior Decorator: Understanding the distinction between space planning/renovations and finishing a space.
  • AI as the Digital Intern: How Kathleen uses AI as a tool to execute her personal, expert prompts instead of letting it dictate design decisions.

Action Items & Takeaways

  • Audit Your Experience: Recognize that foundational skills from past "unrelated" jobs (like office management or recruiting) are building blocks for your current CEO journey.
  • Protect Your Boundaries: If you're a people-pleaser, delegate tasks and empower your team to handle operations to preserve your mental energy.
  • Ditch the Portfolio Imposter Syndrome: Enter pitches or interviews with confidence in your soft skills (like active listening and asking deep questions) rather than just perfect paperwork.

Chapters

  • 00:16 - Welcome & Martha Stewart: The Ultimate Entrepreneurial Beacon.
  • 02:39 - How Sarah and Kathleen Met: Ornament Booths & Custom Herringbone Mugs.
  • 04:46 - Spatial Awareness: The "10-Minute Fix" and Pricing Your Worth.
  • 07:33 - Kathleen's Origin Story: From an English Degree to Tech Recruiting.
  • 10:49 - The Bold Leap: Moore College of Art and Design & The Circuitous Career.
  • 16:37 - Gen X, Boundaries, and the Mental Load of People-Pleasing.
  • 22:14 - Team Chemistry & Giving Yourself Permission to Delegate.
  • 30:37 - Shattering the Glass Ceiling: Women Supporting Women vs. Mean Girl Drama.
  • 34:00 - Education Minute: Interior Designer vs. Decorator.
  • 35:27 - Leveraging AI: Working with "The Intern" Without Sacrificing Human Chemistry.
  • 43:03 - Where to Find KLP Interiors & The Westchester Studio.

Resources

  • GenTelligence: Snap Shots and Strategies for Making the Most of Multi-Generational Workforces (Mentioned by Liz).

Guest Links

Keywords 

Interior Design, Women in Business, Career Pivot, Team Building, Client Referrals, Mindset, Gen X, AI in Design, Female Founders, CEO Sisters, Professional Development.



Want to learn more about what working with Liz looks like?  Head to Your Business Matters to schedule a Discovery call with her

SPEAKER_03

What's coming up?

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the CEO Sisters Road Trip. I'm Liz, and alongside me is my sister, Sarah. We are your co-pilots here to help you flourish in your business and in life. Each week we share relatable stories, strategic advice, and a whole lot of laughs as we tackle challenges like leadership, finance, marketing, vision, and team. So grab your road snacks, buckle up, let's hit the road. This episode is brought to you by Sarah's Love of Martha Stewart Living Magazine. She's always loved beautiful things, and Martha was the early inspiration for her love of interior design and beauty.

SPEAKER_01

Love of interior design and beauty. Martha Stewart was everything to me. Martha Stewart was everything. A beacon. And I didn't know that I needed an entrepreneurial beacon that I didn't realize at the time. I just loved her for all that she brought by way of magazine into my house. And she took something that was like a little nerdy and gardening and just very um simple. But homemakery, right? Like people were trying not to be homemakers. And here she brought something that was so cool and crafty, and she elevated her crafts into total art. And she gave me a voice when I didn't realize I needed a voice. Martha Stewart was absolutely like the be-all for me in the 90s and 2000s.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so we chose that as the advertiser or the sponsor for today because of our guest, Sarah Found, our new friend Kathleen, my new friend Kathleen, um, who's gonna be our guest today. And uh we are super psyched to have her on the show. Well, hello, Kathleen. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Good morning. Thank you for having me. This is fun.

SPEAKER_02

It's already we already talked for 10 minutes and we're already late.

SPEAKER_00

We are ready. We could just keep going. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly right. Um, so excited to have you on the show today. I'm so excited for all the things. I mean, we are. I feel like I already cheated because I got to have a great conversation with you a couple weeks ago. Yeah. And uh I just was like, Sarah, this is gonna be so fun. She just lovely. Uh so Sarah is the one who you two met each other first. Sarah, sis, why don't you set the stage? How'd you all meet?

SPEAKER_01

All right. So uh I met Kathleen at this call at the holiday market in Westchester in the borough. I had a booth set up and she came in as many shoppers did, and she was taking a look at the sprinkle cookie ornaments and bought a couple for her children for Christmas gifts, stocking stuffers. Um, and then a month later or so, she reached out and asked if I would be interested in creating some custom branded mugs for her design firm. And I was elated and excited and just yes, absolutely yes, let's do this. Um, so I got to come down to her studio and see her space, which was just gorgeous, like we just said a minute ago, a candy store full of just goodies and textures and patterns and colors and and artwork. That is um how we met. And it just in talking with her as we were there that day, that first initial consultation, I just kind of fell in love with her and thought she is the right woman to have so much fun.

SPEAKER_00

Right. We just I mean, we just could have kept going. Both of us didn't have to go back to work. I mean, we could have just kept hanging out. I got the tour. Yeah, and it, you know, it's so fun interacting with another creative. Yeah. Because you get that chemistry and that synergy, and you start vibing as the kids say today. And yes, um, you know, it was so much fun, you know, pawing through your box of samples, pulling things out. Well, we could do this. Well, what if we did this? And then I think I grabbed one of our postcards, which is where we came up with that herringbone pattern for the bottom of the mug. Yeah. Um, just you know, really deep diving into the creative piece, which was just so fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and to bring different creative styles together. Like I agree with that. There's something so special when you just have those conversations and you're just creating, you're just letting me. I mean, right.

SPEAKER_00

You speak the same language, and not everybody does. Agree, right? Agree. Yeah, I was just explaining that to our summer intern the other day, and I was saying that we were talking about a client project in particular, and um, a client that we'd had some furniture delivered to her home, and I hadn't been able to make it over there yet. My schedule was just a little too congested. And she'd sent me clients sent me an email saying, I don't the chair and ottoman don't seem to fit. I'm not sure why, you know, in the space. And and I knew why intuitively. And sure enough, I go on site and it's because some pieces needed to be moved around that they were placed in the incorrect location. So it was some minor adjustments. And the intern, when we got back in the car, she said that took 10 minutes. Why why did we have to do this? And I said, you know, it always we have a job because we see things and not everybody sees things, you know, that not everybody has spatial awareness, not everybody has that intuitive knowledge as to where things should be placed, whether that's styling a bookshelf or whether that's placing furniture or hanging artwork. You either have that intuitive skill or you don't. So that's a creative skill versus you just don't have it. You can appreciate it, but you don't know how to do it on your own. And that's I I laugh and say, Well, that's job security. But when you talk with someone else who has that same head space, that's when you really start clicking and you really start to flow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I love that line though of um or the uh observ observation of the intern, say that only took 10 minutes. Why?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I love first of all, I love that they asked it because you then got to explain. You're like, actually, that 10 minutes changed the way they will feel about that room for years. Correct, right? And so if there's a there's a story we tell when we talk about pricing of, you know, you know, someone has this million dollar thing, like that if if I can fix this thing, it will be I can make a million dollars or whatever, and you have someone come in and it takes them five minutes, they're like, Great, give me $50,000. I said, Well, it took you five minutes. You're like, No, it didn't. It took me 30 years to make it five minutes, and you're the same thing. You walk in, you know instantly because of your experience, your education, your wisdom, your creative, all of it, and it's it changed everything in five minutes. Like that's what experts, human experts, human experts.

SPEAKER_01

You didn't even have to be human experts. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

All right, so let's let's share, let's go back to your kind of origin story. Let's share with our audience, yeah, where you started, and then what was the pivot that got you to where you are in this beautiful space doing what you love?

SPEAKER_00

So I think that one of the interesting things, and and we spoke about this a little bit the other day, about the state of the job market for entry-level um, you know, um, students coming out of college, of of which I have a daughter who's one of those people. And the job market when I graduated from college with a degree in English was very similar. And so you have ideas when you're in school what you're gonna come out of school and do. And I basically got to a point where I was applying for any job that would allow me to even use some of the skills that I learned in college and and the things that I wanted to do, which was which was right. Um, so I actually ended up as a uh studio manager in a um computer technology company down in Maryland. Um, and so I was basically an office manager. I mean, I was doing, you know, um invoicing, um, bank deposits, managing the space, scheduling meetings, you know, all of that very basic stuff. Um, I moved back to this area, which is where I'm originally from. I grew up in media and um went to work for another computer technology company because I had had that foundation, right? So that was sort of my first building block. And um, I worked for them as an office manager, and then I said, you know, I'm really intrigued by this recruiting piece. Could I start doing recruiting? Because that's what they did. And so the two owners said, sure, if you want to try it. And I thought, okay, well, how do I make this something more interesting to me? So I carved out a little niche and I was working with um technical writers, recruiting technical writers and then placing them at local businesses as consultants who needed technical writers. So that was sort of my path. And then I got recruited out of that company to be a technical recruiter in a much larger firm we were hiring for for our company. So, all told, I was in that computer technology field for about 10 years with a degree in English. So it's that idea of pivot, yeah, right? It's the that idea of okay, you know what? Let's lean into all of my skills, not just the one that I have on my diploma, um, and and carve out a career for myself. So that's what I did. And then um I, while working as a recruiter, I got married. And, you know, recruiting was was very, very competitive at that time, probably still is, but at that time, specifically in the Philadelphia metropolitan area, very, very hot. Um, I was just working 60 to 8 hour work weeks. That was common. And my husband and I agreed we're not gonna be able to have the family life that we would like for ourselves with this type of work stress. So um at the time we had purchased an old farmhouse um up in Phoenixville, and we were renovating it, and that was my happy place.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so I started tapping into this whole part of myself that had always been there, but I had just never really thought of maybe having a career. So big bold jump, left my corporate position, put myself back through school at Moore College of Art and Design in Philadelphia, um, and uh worked for designers to while I was in school to learn the business side of the business, which was very humbling to go from a corporate position back to working as somebody's Girl Friday. Um, but I did it. I knew I needed to invest in myself and learn the business. Um, and that was 26 years ago I graduated and um been on my own ever since.

SPEAKER_02

That's amazing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

It's circuitous. That's what I tell when I lecture with students. I say, you know, careers aren't linear. Careers are circuitous, and you know, you you have to be willing to take risks. Um, but there are such big rewards if you're willing to do it. Um, and um, and it does work, you know, and so I I love to speak to students and talk to them about that. You know, don't don't pigeonhole yourself, don't put on those blinders and think, oh, well, I couldn't do this or I couldn't do that. You can't. You can't. You can. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And how many of us started in a role like that? Like working as an office manager and think about all of the different tasks. I mean, my my first job out of college was um working for limited brands in their corporate headquarters, and I was the assistant to the MVP. And all of the different things that I learned there, I was really quick to get out of that role. I knew once I learned it, I needed to move on. But those are foundational things. So you put our as our kids are graduating college and getting their first jobs, it doesn't matter really where you are because you're gonna learn so much just about life and exactly work in general. And then then you're gonna start to pivot. You're gonna get to see roads open. So I just love how you had this foundation in office management. And now look what you're doing, running in the entire company and employees, and it all starts.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, you say that, and it reminds me of a conversation that I had with the woman who was running the program when I went to Moore. And so, you know, I had to interview, I had to bring a portfolio. Well, I didn't have a portfolio, right? I mean, you know, other than pictures of what I was doing in my own house, I didn't have a portfolio. And, you know, and I went into this interview, me as a recruiter, right? All I did was interview people. I went into this interview and thought, oh, Madon, like what is gonna happen here? And um, you know, uh, she basically said to me, she said, you know, in the role that you do, you have all of these skills, you know, one of them being communication, and one of them knowing how to ask questions and how to listen to answers. And what a strong foundation that is for the career that I'm in now. Um, because I'm getting, I'm always trying to get to what's important to the client. Yeah, you know, aesthetics is important, function is very important. So we want our projects to address both. Just making it look good isn't good enough. That's only problem solving for one piece of it. Making sure it works for their family, it lives with them the way they want to live in it is another. So you take it takes a lot of questions and a lot of listening to discover what that is. Um, and she was right. You know, those interview skills that I honed in in that almost decade in in that industry, in one career, really were has worked in my favor over the past 25 plus years.

SPEAKER_02

There's so many cool things in this story, and I hey this could be one that we do force our children to listen to. It just they're not. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, good luck. I know. I said force, but we'll see. But there could because there were so many amazing things that you talked about. You said you you way back at when you're talking about it, you said you were trying it. Let's just try it. Let's try it. Yeah. Try this thing. Um, I like writing. Let's see if I like the technical writers, they'll be able to be able to speak the same language. So again, communication. Um, you leaned into all your skills, is how you said it, but you also leaned into what you love. You love writing, you love language, you love so you're like, uh, I'm gonna create this niche, and I love that you said that. Yeah. You know, we talk about it with college of taking a big school and making it small, and you did it there. You said, I'm gonna take this big business and I'm gonna find this little niche and I'll be the expert for those folks. And there are plenty of those folks, which I loved. Uh, and then you shared again such huge things. You trusted and in uh trusted and uh oh my gosh, invested. Jeez, trusted and invested in yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That allowed you to go to that next place. Like it was so there's so many good things in there. That was and and courage, courage stood out to me too.

SPEAKER_01

To go to an interview where they are expecting to see a portfolio that you don't have, like that takes some courage. You know you went. It did. It did.

SPEAKER_00

And I mean, I was a successful, you know, professional, business professional with a career, right? I mean, and I was intimidated going into these interviews because I didn't feel equipped to give them what I assumed they needed to see. Um, and it so that was a learning experience for me, putting myself in that situation and walking out of that and saying, okay, so that was a good learning experience.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's awesome. I want to go into so now you're you're in your new career, 26 years later, here we are. One of the things we we've talked about, I think all of us have talked about, is the idea of being a people pleaser. And you mentioned it, Kathleen. When you're talking about, you know, it's the pros and cons of being people pleasers. People pleasers do a lot for others, and it's amazing. So we have tend to have happy clients, we tend to have higher retention rates, we tend to have um easier access into new rooms, sitting at new tables. Like we're able to ingratiate ourselves, but it's also exhausting because we think of others and then say, I'll take care of myself later, and then all of a sudden, you know, I'm 51 and you're like, I'm just tired. Could someone please hold the door for me? That's all. Just one thing. Like it's so small. So, so talk to us a little bit about um, you know, your thoughts on as female entrepreneurs. Do you see this as something that's sort of you know part of who we are? Yeah Gen X. I mean, because I've seen my kids and their crew, they have this ability to not care nearly as much about other people as in both good and bad ways that I do.

SPEAKER_00

I'm always Yeah, they're very self-focused.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, which you know, I see in pros and cons. I read a book called Um Gen Telligents, and it was really dissecting all the generations and how we could learn from each other if we wanted to, instead of being like, your generation's crazy. So talk to me about people pleasers and you know, it's like how is it how's it working for you and against you? And sort of where what are your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I have a women's um uh group that I started here when we moved into our current studio space. We've been here a little over three years because I finally had the room to do this. I always wanted to do it. So it's essentially a trade coffee and conversation group, and we sit, um, we meet, you know, on in the morning and we sit and we just talk. And it, I mean, networking will happen. That's not the intention of the group. The intention of the group is that as an industry, a lot of design professionals are very um individualized. You know, it's it's I I'm fortunate I have a staff here, but not everybody does. And so it's very isolating. So giving everybody an opportunity to share and talk and commiserate and educate, and um, you know, um, I'm I'm struggling with this. Oh, I just had a situation like that. Here's how I handled it. Or has anybody run into something like this? Oh, yes, actually, that happened to me. So it's it's just those conversations, right? But one of the the point of me sharing that is that we all have a commonality that we all are people pleasers, and I don't know what that says about so many of us who are in this interior design industry, most likely because what we do is very personal. You know, I joke and say, we're all up in your business, but we are all up in your business. I mean, when you're designing personal, intimate family spaces for your clients and their families, it's very personal. I mean, you you you are you're getting to know them. It's it's almost like an intense relationship, and then you break up, you know. And a lot of times, so I'll we'll tell I'll text with clients and I'll say, I just miss you, right? Because you have these very close relationships. And so the beautiful thing about that is that you know, my clients know that I truly care and that I'm gonna do anything within my power to pull a rabbit out of a hat, make sure that they're happy, um, customer service at a very high level. Those are all of the hallmarks of the business.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

The challenge with that is that it's very tough on me emotionally and mentally to make everybody happy because I'm making my clients happy, I want my team to be happy. Oh, yeah, I have a family, I want my family to be happy, I have friends, I want my friends to be happy. So there's a lot of pressure that comes from being someone who cares so much. So it's a beautiful thing from a business perspective because you know, we run our design um clients, 95% of our design clients are generated through referral or repeat business. So obviously, we're performing at that high level and making people happy, or we wouldn't have that business model. But on the other hand, it it does take its toll on me, and trying to strike balance and um have self-preservation is a challenge.

SPEAKER_02

It is, and it's one of those things it's hard to turn off because you you can't have poor customer service or customer experience, and that is the hallmark of what you do, it is your brand. Yeah, uh, but it is interesting, you know, about how exhausting in that how exhausting the mental load can be. So is Is there one area that you can think of where you did set boundaries and maybe more recently than 10, 15, 25 years ago, that has made a difference in just one area? Because I think you know, we all go very quickly to all or nothing. So I have to stop being a people pleaser as opposed to saying, you know what? If I just protected myself, like I'm a morning person. So my I get my peace happens between 5:15 and 8 o'clock or 7:30 every day. Yeah. And that's my time. And if someone's up, I'm always like, you doing? Right? So have you found one how what have you done to find a little bit of a boundary?

SPEAKER_00

I would say that I I would say on on both sides. So professionally, um, I have a team. It's not just me anymore. It used to be everything was me, right? So now I have a team and I have a very autonomous management style. Right. They're they're business professionals, they don't need me to micromanage, and so I don't. Um so giving myself permission to turn the business over to other people, and as time has gone on, turn over a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. So so that's that's one thing that I've done. Um, giving myself permission and hiring the right people to handle that. So and and represent the company the way I have built it. So that's very important. And I'm so blessed with the team that I have. They're just wonderful women and um they give it their all every day. And I'm and I'm so grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02

So wait, I just have to say, yeah. So I talk about hiring and team probably 40 million times a week with my clients. And you have this ninja skill of being a corporate career tenured recruiter. I would love to see your job descriptions because I bet they are like people are knocking down the door, but not everybody. So you're not getting this. I mean, we all get the spam AI like things from Indeed, but I bet yours people are like, oh this is the most beautiful, well, well written, super clear job description. So someone's like, I see her and I see me working with her. Like that is oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is, but it's also um it's it's chemistry. You know, we're we're a small office, so you know, there are four of us.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so chemistry is a big piece. Skills, skills is a isn't is a given, right? Right. Um some skills I can teach. You don't have to come in. Industry I've taught to to everybody, none of them came into the business knowing the industry. Um but I think it is um it's important with the chemistry piece, and then what I also say is that there's never anything I won't ask you to do that I won't do myself. Bingo. But know that there's pretty much not anything I won't do. I am known for I'm I'm a get it done girl. I will roll up my sleeves, I will, you know, get down on the floor and scrub the floor if I have to. And I have. I mean, it's uh I when I say I want it to to make my client happy, I'm gonna do what it takes to make them happy. That's one of the important pieces for me with hiring is setting that expectation.

SPEAKER_02

Do you have do you have a test or anything that you gives gave uh it was a critical thinking test because that's where we it all boils down to you know really strong critical thinking skills? And you mentioned all of those one all of the things before. Yeah. The listening, this the answering questions, the asking good questions, all of those things. And ours were the same. It's you know, we needed people who could learn very quickly and pivot because they're working at that point. It was one-on-one with students, but all of those critical thinking skills, we tested for that. Do you have some some uh some of those too?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I think in a small business, no, I don't. Okay, and I think in a small business it's more communication through that interview process. Um and I think the other point I was gonna make about a small business is while the job description is accurate, there's a lot of um opportunity in a small business because we're all building the business together. Yeah. So I don't say they're my my employees, I say they're my team. I love that because we do work as a team and and we're building the business together. So while I'm carrying the heaviest of the foundational building blocks, um, they're all carrying building blocks as well. And so there is opportunity for them to pick up new skills, create a new role for themselves, which one of my two of my team members have done. They've moved in from starting in one position and created another position based on trust, based on skill set. Um, you know, and and that's a beautiful thing. So a lot of it is learning over time what are their strengths, what's important to them, what's their love language. Yeah, right. And then okay, how do I how do I create an opportunity for them that we can get to?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I can't make it happen overnight or a small business, but um so a lot of the assessment of that that you're talking about, I think is done on the job.

SPEAKER_02

Great. I and I love and I appreciate that. I I do think like in a small business, we have to be able to know that I'm gonna watch someone grow. If I'm doing this right, I get to watch somebody grow. And my job as the leader of this team is to create opportunity. I I currently work with um a team that does that, and it's been very apparent. They're like, and I always have done this with my career. Sarah just was saying she did it too. And having that opportunity created by someone like you is like the gift, the gift. So I bet that's lives in your uh initial onboarding too of people. You're like, I'm not just saying it, this is living, breathing. Correct. This is this is it. Correct. Sarah, I'm gonna jump your your question and we'll come back to that next. Is it because I do believe what you've described as your team is part of the reason that your referral business is as strong as it is, right? So they're not just talking about Kathleen, they're talking about Kathleen and her frigging amazing team. The whole package is you can't go wrong. I've I've worked with a group recently, and they love the designers and the contractors and the companies they work with. Every single one of those humans is stunning. And I have had the best conversations with people. They're like, who did you use? I have probably referred five people in my neighborhood to work with these guys because the whole package, like Susan and Alicia are awesome, and then Diego and Ben and their entire team, yeah, every person was amazing. So, like, it's not just one person, you don't refer just one person. So how have you like how have you intentionally built your business this way?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I think that um the people-pleasing piece comes in huge, yeah, right. Because when I say to clients I truly care, they know I truly care. Um, so I think that I've proven that over and over again, right? Um, in my interactions, which is why the repeat business is as solid as the referral business. Um and I think my team has that same mentality, and it's also the the more we build, the more we solidify the company, um the more opportunity they have. So job security, yes, but also opportunity. So if they want to move into another role, then what does that role look like? And where does the business have to go to create a role like that? Um, and so they're as invested in that as I am.

SPEAKER_01

Can we talk about women and just uh yeah? You clearly have created this team of women supporting women. That's something that you're very passionate about. Very with our for our listeners, why are you so passionate about it? What what brought you to be such a support to women? Because I don't know that everybody is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um so what's what's your story behind that?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I I think honestly it goes back to growing up as a young woman and and I I joke, but saying I was more like a guy in the sense that I really didn't like getting involved in mean girl stuff, you know, it was not something that I ever felt comfortable with or ever wanted to be a part of, that I like supporting everybody and being there for everybody. Um and I think then working in an industry that is very male-dominated um and not feeling like I was offering secrets to the competition, if I shared things with other women professionals, um, feeling as if the more I shared, then the stronger we all are. And and quite honestly, even as a young mom, you know, feeling like why are we judging each other? Who cares whether if you if you choose to to have children in daycare and work full time, good for you. If you choose to be at home with your children and and and take a hiatus from your career, good for you. Why is there all of this judgment and criticism and you know that uh is just not who I am, and and it it's not what I want for myself personally, and so professionally it's been a big thing with me that I want to be a support and a mentor or a friend or whatever you want to call it to other women professionals. Um, because I think that as we would all be so much more better off if we did that for one another. Agree. And helped all of us shatter the glass ceiling instead of pushing each other down.

SPEAKER_02

I I'm not a scarcity person. I I don't have a scarcity mindset. I don't think you de you definitely don't.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02

And I I am a such a believer in we all rise. Like it's not a zero-sum game. Just because you're winning doesn't mean I'm losing. That how would that even make sense? Right. We're in a different universe, and it's yeah, it's been it's been so fun doing this show, but also I've also intentionally surrounded myself with people who think like that. Yeah. Because I want to have creative, forward-looking conversations about anything. It could like the dumbest conversation in the world that's not stopped by jealousy, insecurity, fear. Yeah. And that, I mean, that's not normal. Thank you for being not normal. This is also where we were talking, Kathleen, of you the difference. And so let's just do some education real fast. What's the difference between an interior designer and an interior decorator?

SPEAKER_00

So that's a loaded question. I know. Um, be and it depends on who you ask, then who may give you an answer. Um, the answers may vary. Uh here is my perspective. Um, an interior decorator is someone who works on just decor and finishes. So furniture, fabric, drapery, um, soft goods like pillows, artwork. They're finishing a space that exists. A designer is building the space that exists and decorating it, but involved in the space planning, the layouts, the modifications, additions, renovations, custom builds. They're working with architects through the process. Um, all materials and finishes, selections for whatever that space or home is, then they're going back in. So we're involved in the creation of the envelope as well as what's inside the envelope. That's how I describe the difference.

SPEAKER_01

Um, can we we're gonna flip it a little bit? Let's talk about AI a little and how that has changed and evolved. I know what it is like to have to make things from hand by my hands, and yeah, we've got AI here. What does it what does that look like? How does that change the scope of your business? How does that maybe assist in your business?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's rapidly evolving, which I think we can all agree on. Amen.

SPEAKER_01

Like very quickly.

SPEAKER_00

Very quickly. I feel in this past year alone, we have had more than a few clients come to a meeting with a concept that they've generated using AI or a floor plan that they've used or or created with AI that they're saying, can you make me this? Can you do this? Um, so that's been interesting.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um I really try not to use AI. I think all of us are using it sort of against our will with things like Google. You know, it's automatically pushing you into AI mode, Gmail automatically pushing you into AI mode, right? So I think that some of that is just happening whether we realize it or not. Right. Um, I did use um AI or have used it a couple times recently to quickly generate a visual concept for a client. Um where me taking the time to draw it out, which I have the capability to do and do all the time, but it would have taken me three hours to draw it out. Whereas I could take a photograph of their room and say to AI, I need you to create this floor-to-ceiling fireplace. Here's the tile, here's the style of mantle, here's how I want it to, here's the width, here's the height, here's I'm giving it all of the information to create the image for me. Yeah. So the difference between AI doing it and me doing it using AI is that I'm telling AI exactly what I want it to do. So we're taking the computer error out of it. Yep. And I'm still using all of my knowledge and all of my wisdom, and you know, knowing that I need it to be cohesive with the rest of the space and I need it to resonate like this, or you know, it's a fireplace surround. We need to make sure the materials are flam or, you know, aren't flammable. So it's all of those things that I've already done.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not just typing into AI, hey, could you make me a cool fireplace that has four-to-ping ceiling stone?

SPEAKER_02

Right. It's it's you're using it the way you would talk to a human assistant. Correct. Where you're saying, hey, you're doing a great job. Here are all the things that I need you to go do. And it just happens to be able to do it really fast. Correct.

SPEAKER_00

And it can also be so it is, you know, in one of the lectures that I went to, which of which of course there's one every other week now about how to use AI and specifically for the design business, and it was basically saying, you know, it's it's essentially an intern. How would you use an intern? Yeah. That's what I which then makes me sad because I think, well, then why why do I have an intern? But um but yeah, it's um you know, I I don't really want to use it, um, but I will when I need to.

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

I guess.

SPEAKER_02

How do you how do you uh talk about the value so that so knowing that you've had a handful and you're gonna have more people coming to you with those designs from online? How do you share it? And I talk about this all day with people in general, like sharing your value, your promise, your whatever. Yeah, how do you have you noticed that you've had to change how you share your value? Or how how are you sharing the value of what you bring versus what a 30-second chat with Gemini will do?

SPEAKER_00

You know, um, again, I think that's where referral comes in. Yeah, you know, um, and the it's a relationship, you don't have a relationship with AI. Right. Um, so I think that that goes a long way in this world that has become too automated. There's not a lot of personal anymore. And so I think people they they want to feel more control over a project or they're interested and or have the time to play around themselves, you know. We ask clients all the time to provide us with inspiration images, you know, show us what you want. So that's essentially what they're doing with AI. And and is it gonna work? Right? Because that's not AI is not coming into the house and assessing the site and saying you can't do that because your wall's gonna fall off because the load of that stone is too heavy for the framing. You know, I mean, it's so so I you know, there there's a give and take there.

SPEAKER_02

Um I love that I I love the the way that you talked about it again, the power of referrals and the power of, you know, you are you have 26 years of experience, you and you're focused in just this area where you live, you're not nationwide, you know what I mean? So you like get you're in, but also the fact that you're leveraging what people are doing. So we talk a lot about yeah, I'm I cannot change anyone's behavior, and I don't pretend that I can, but I can leverage the behavior that they're doing to get to what they actually want. So use AI, create the image. That's great. I love looking at the AI generated things, and then let me do what I do, correct? Right? Like you bring me your vision.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's it's essentially inspiration, correct? So so you can they can curate Pinterest and provide me with you know five or six images of I keep using the fireplace, can give me five or six images. It's kind of the same thing if they give me an AI-generated image. Now, if someone were to come to me with a floor plan for furniture and say, Okay, Kathleen, so this AI is telling me that I need a sofa and a love seat and two chairs and an 8x10 area rug and 18 by 24 nesting tables. Can you find those for me? I would say absolutely not. No, absolutely not. No, because I'm not taking on the liability that that's gonna work. No, because I don't know that AI has taken into account egress. What are the dimensions I need for that? What are the materials that we need for this space? What's important to the client as far as you know construction of the furniture? Um, I don't know what AI has done. So I don't know that AI knows its numbers when it comes to something like that. So, no, I'm not gonna work from that and and then say, okay, yeah, let's let's let's go buy you know $25,000 worth of furniture. Oh, come on in. Nope. Not not a chance.

SPEAKER_02

We are actually out of time. Okay. This is so fun. People are asking. I could talk about I had like four more questions that I want to ask before I try to grab them into there. How can people? I mean, I don't even know if we want to do this because it's a pretty exclusive club, everybody. Uh, will be the referral. Right. How can people find you looking for beautiful things?

SPEAKER_00

Give us everything. How can they find you? So the website is www.klp interiors with an s dot com. What I will tell people is that we are not only an interior design firm, we're also a Hunter Douglas window covering dealer. So the website reads like a window covering website, because to be perfectly frank, it is. It's it's a Hunter Douglas website using my domain name. The you can see examples of our work in Instagram, which is at KLP Interiors. Um, we're on Facebook as well. Um, we're also on a website called House, H-O-U-Z-Z. Um, so that's another place to see a broader portfolio of our work. Um, the studio is in Westchester, Pennsylvania, right on Market Street. If you are familiar with town, we're literally right in the center of town between church and high streets. Oh, by appointment or by chance, which everybody loves that that's what the sign says. But take a chance and come in. There's always somebody here. Definitely peek through the windows if you're in. I know, and people love to peek through the windows, and we're known for our window displays. And the window displays we should be, and we have a lot of fun with them. They're very creative. Our our America 250 celebration window is up now, and it's absolutely adorable. I haven't been in town. I'll have to stop by. Oh, you have to see it. It's so cute. We always incorporate fabric, wallpaper, decor into our windows in very creative ways. So we're always looking at ways to push the boundaries and showcase different um vendors and stuff. So yeah, so that's how you find us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this was super fun. Sis, do you have any final thoughts? I'm just grateful for your time and just sharing it. Yeah, this works so fun. Thank you again. Let's do it again.

SPEAKER_00

Let's do it again. Let's do it again. We can just keep talking.

SPEAKER_01

We take this all the time. We just need more groups. We need more small women's groups to just share. I think you need to join Kathleen's, Sarah. I did. I got an invitation.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, she's on the list. I'm on the list. Thank you so much, Kathleen. This was delightful. Everybody, thank you for listening. Please rate and review this episode and this podcast on wherever you're listening to it. We'd love to hear your comments and your questions. This was this was a delight. And everyone remember your business matters, and it really matters to us. So thanks for doing what you're doing. And until next time, we'll see ya. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00

You guys too have a good weekend. Thank you, Kathleen. Hop on at the beach. You too. Bye. Bye. What's coming up?