The Other Side

TOS of a Single Mother by Choice

• Nadine Hogan • Season 2 • Episode 11

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0:00 | 1:21:11

In a candid conversation, Donna - an artist, musician, and mom - shares what she’s loving lately in music (Louis Tomlinson, thanks to her nine-year-old daughter) before diving into the story behind her decision to choose to become a single mother at 40.  

Donna first walked into a fertility clinic at 38 when it occurred to her that time was slipping by and waiting for the right partner was no longer something she could entertain. Women’s biological clocks are a real thing, and if she was going to be a mom, it was now or never. 

Throughout this episode Donna talks to us about the decision to use a sperm donor, walking us through the steps while openly and honestly sharing how she felt each part of the way. She shares the challenges and joys, the worries and wins, and how she finally got the courage to tell her Catholic mother about the pregnancy, leaning on her supportive father and friends along the way. 

Raising Maria has been the reward she always hoped for, and she talks about raising her with honesty about being donor-conceived, including connecting her with donor siblings via the Donor Sibling Registry. Reflecting on postpartum fears, finances, therapy and screen-time challenges, this is ultimately a story about finding joy in single mothering, soaking up the love that is Maria, in all her humour, imagination and strong will.

@the_otherside_pod

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the other side pod. I'm Needine. We're not experts. We're just humans having a human experience we think we can learn from, or relate to, or laugh at, or cry over. So hit download, dive in, and hear how folks found themselves on the other side. We are recording with Donna. Donna. I know you love music and I know you know music really well and you listen to a lot of music. I want to know what is a song or an artist or an album that's brand new to you that you are loving right now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh god, this is gonna sound so ridiculous, actually. So brand new to me. Yes, Louie Tomlinson from One Direction. Stop. What's the song? His whole new album. It's called Uh How Did I Get Here? And the reason I know it right now is because my daughter is obsessed. So she's nine and she loves One Direction. Like, I'm like, honey, you know that they broke up like 10 years ago, right? And she's like, Yeah, I know, but it's all she listens to. And she really honed in on him and then started listening to his albums. And he has like three or four solo albums. And so I almost couldn't help but become very well versed in his music. And now I love it. It's so fun. It's so yeah, unexpected for me because you know he's he's from a boy band, but he was so young when he did that. And it's kind of nice to see how he has grown up and how his music has changed from being in this little pop band that was started from God, what was it? TV show, I think. Yeah, it wasn't X Factor, I think, in in Britain, maybe. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I should know because I literally know everything about them now.

SPEAKER_01

That's the band that Harry Styles was in, right? Yes, yes, Harry Styles fans right here. I literally just wrote our joint friend Lisa, and I was like, Harry Styles will be such a good concert.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you know, he's doing like 10 in London in like June. 10 shows at Wembley. Is it Wembley? Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I love him so much.

SPEAKER_00

So did you see what? No, no, not to Harry. I bought my daughter tickets to see Louie in July in Toronto. I love her.

SPEAKER_01

I was excited for your daughter from what I like, but you're like, no, Nadine, this is what it is to have a child. It's what she wants to do. Gotta do what she wants.

SPEAKER_00

Does she know? She keeps begging me, and I'm always just like, maybe, okay, maybe. We'll see. I'm not making any promises, but I yeah, I bought them. So we're going. When are you gonna give when like when are you gonna tell her? I'll tell her, like, probably I haven't decided, like, I can't keep a secret. I'm so bad at it. Like, I don't know how I'll keep it in secrets like that. Cause I just want to see her excitement because I know she's gonna lose her shit. Are we allowed to swear? Can we swear? Yeah, okay. I'm a big swearer, same. So yeah, I just know she's gonna be so excited as as long as she stays on the bandwagon until they're so fickle, right?

SPEAKER_01

Listen, I sleep in the new kids on the block t-shirt that I got for my 13th birthday. It's currently with me here in Ottawa, and it it's it's like, I don't know if you remember the well, you remember new kids on the block, but they had this line of merch with all their handprints on it. Oh my god, I know. Yeah, I remember. So, like that was a couple of years ago. She'll still be in it. She'll still be in it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, she will be, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You're the best mom. Speaking of, did you always know you wanted to be a mom?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, so I did, I really did. I don't think it was ever like in this obvious way, like I wasn't thinking about it when I was young or anything, but it was something that was always, I think, inside me. It wasn't about babies specifically, it was more about like a sense of uh wanting to love and raise a child was something I was meant to do. And I think that my brother and his two children, like I was very, very and still am very present in their lives. And I mean, I was their babysitter, I Parker and Anna. I mean, they were my little sidekicks, right? So yeah, it I had them, and I guess for most of my life, I assumed it would just happen the traditional way, you know. I never really questioned that when I was young, but I think even when I was younger, the the desire to be a mother was it felt separate from the idea of marriage or a partnership, you know, like it was always its own thing. And looking back now, I think, yeah, my heart probably always knew it, what I was gonna do. And that that was going to be the the path I took. Even though I didn't know it, I couldn't say it or I couldn't put words to that. I never thought about marriage. I never thought about weddings. I just kind of assumed it would happen that way, I suppose. That's what that's what you did, right? That's what you did.

SPEAKER_01

We're both from Newfoundland. And it's and it's kind of we grew up in a traditional place, you know, where and it's more way more traditional time and kind of closed-minded time in many ways in the 90s, and not just because we were in Newfoundland, that was a lot of the world and still is in some places, but yeah, I also assumed it was like, yep, get married and have kids, because it was just the example all around. Before we get into what you ended up doing and this beautiful soul that you're raising, tell us who you are. I am. Oh, god, indeed.

SPEAKER_00

That's not that's a what an easy question. Who am I? Wow. Well, I I think that I would describe myself as if I was to use like one or or two words, I would probably the first word I would use would be, I'm I'm an artist, for sure. I'm a musician. That's my passion. I'm a mom, definitely. That's that defines me in many, many ways. Although I try very hard to not let it be the only thing in my life that defines me. Yeah, and I think I'm just kind of like a creative soul out here, trying my best to foster creativity in my life when sometimes I just don't have time to do it, but I really still want to. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's who I am.

SPEAKER_01

I have a cute little story. I don't know if I ever told you. We connected in a master's program. We both did our master's in business.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But before that, we went to the same high school, but you were a couple of years ahead of me, and our grades didn't necessarily hang out. So you were always like this like person ahead of me. And when I was little, when I was in junior high, I played the flute. So you were you were this constant in my life because you're a very talented, gifted, and hard-working flute player. Fli Flautist? Floutist, yes. Um and just remember you playing. I I remember I think I played for three years. I think I quit in grade like nine or ten just because the brain got distracted. But I I always remember you. I almost have you on this like musical pedestal.

SPEAKER_00

That is so cute. So I always knew you were sweet in the Newfoundland Orchestra now. Yes, I mean I play with the Newfoundland Symphony. That is my sorry, yeah. Yeah, second job.

SPEAKER_01

Beautiful. Yeah. When did you officially decide and how that now is the time I'm gonna have a baby on my own? You're like, this is it, I'm gonna do it. It's now and ever. How?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I mean, as I was getting older, I guess, I think up well, I was 40 when I decided to go for it. Okay. And I think the idea itself, though, was floating around in my mind a little bit before that, probably mid-30s. But I think 40 was the moment where I stopped thinking someday and realized that oh girl, you're 40. You got to do it. It's now or never, right? So I think I realized then that waiting for the perfect circumstances or the perfect person might mean waiting forever or it wasn't gonna come. And I was actually up visiting my friend Kristen, who had just had a baby at that time. And so I went up to spend a couple of weeks with them. And I was in a relationship at that time. So I had started thinking about it and had gone to the fertility clinic and everything when I was like 38. And then I met somebody, and he was wonderful, super sweet guy. We had a lot of great things in common. Just didn't work, just wasn't for me. We just weren't a match at the end of the day, I guess. And so I remember we were walking around Kent's Pond and we sat down on a bench and he started talking about like, oh, maybe next year we'll go on a mountain biking trip down in the mountains, like Appalachian trail and stuff. And that's what I was like, oh my god. No, you don't know me, obviously. Like, that's not happening, right? I want to have a baby, and we had talked about a little bit about marriage and going that next step, and so I think that's what I knew. Anyway, we broke up there on that bench. I yeah, I said, I don't think that we want the same things, yeah. And then the next day I went to Toronto to visit Kristen, and that's when I went to meet the baby, and that's when I knew, and it was that was in July, I think. And then I flew home. Well, I called the fertility clinic when I was up in Toronto, and she said, You're really lucky you called because after not coming back for a year, because it had been a year before that I had gone, and then I had met my partner right after that. She said, After a year, you need a new referral, but tomorrow it's a year.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, so I got an appointment and I went when I got home, I went and we we started. So yeah, it was floating around in my head, just the idea of it. And then that's that was when I realized when I was up in Toronto holding Kristen's and Marty's little girl, Frances. And I mean, I was I was I would cry all the time when I was holding her, like, and I'm like, I'm 40. If I don't do this, like there's no time. I'm not going out looking for somebody to have a child with when I don't have to, right? You know, so yeah, that's how it happened, really.

SPEAKER_01

So in your 30s, you know, you were meeting people, dating, and like the idea was I will meet someone and we'll both hopefully want similar things and uh uh we'll want kids together. Yeah, and then when you hit 38 and you were like, there's nobody in my life right now that I'm prepared to have a kid with, that's when you went, and then of course you meet someone, right? And so because it sneaks up on us, is why I'm going through this because 40 just all of a sudden happens. I think when we're in our 30s, it's like, yeah, that will happen, or I will have kids, or and we were just chatting about how it just seemed like the the thing we would do because that's what we grew up around, people getting married and having kids. And I had the opposite experience that I got married, as you know, when I was younger. And then when we divorced, because we're only married for a year, I had this like sensation of I don't have to have kids. Not because I wouldn't have been a good mom and he wouldn't have been a good dad. I just remember I wasn't actually making the decision. So on the flip side, a few more years later, you were like, I need to actually proactively make this decision.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01

Is the clinic in Newfoundland? Yes. In St. John's, okay, yeah. Clinic St. John's.

SPEAKER_00

And what kind of clinic is it? Fertility clinic or so yeah, it's the fertility clinic. So they have, I mean, this was 10 years ago now, but they probably I think it's expanded a lot recently. But you couldn't do IVF in the province, which is in future fertilization, but I could do IUI in the province. So that's intrauterine insemination. And I went to my appointment, she said, look, you're 40, 5 to 10% chance that this will work for you using IUI, right? Okay, because basically IUI is you have you have a vial of sperm from the donor you choose. You lie down and they put a tube to the bottom of your cervex and they insert the sperm. And they're like, hopefully, one will find an egg. So it's just basically the same kind of chances that you have of trying to get pregnant naturally at 40, right? You would be very surprised, probably if you haven't looked into it, how small every year your your chances get smaller after like 35. It's the biological clock is a real, real thing, right?

SPEAKER_01

When they told you 5 to 10% chance, what went through your head?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I had bought three vials of sperm from the donor that I had chosen. From the same donor? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I said, okay, I have three tries to do it this way. I'm gonna do it because IVF is like a billion dollars, you know. But I had gone to the bank and I got a loan. I got like a$50,000 loan because five to ten percent. Like the chances of me having to go to that step were very, very high. So I needed to make sure I had the finances in place to do it, just because time was ticking. And yeah, so it worked on my third try. It was it was my last file. It worked, and it was shivers. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. Because I the first two times, and like, you know, the things you put yourself through, right? When you're trying to do it that way, is I mean, there was medications involved, there were like trigger shots to ovulate, you know, it was all very precisely timed throughout your cycle, and chances were so low. So when I got that you're pregnant on the like the little digital one, I I couldn't believe it. I was really shocked that it was real.

SPEAKER_01

So each try, each try, each vial was at a month cycle, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Month cycle.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so you so at the end of the month you didn't get pregnant, you could try the next month, you didn't have to wait three months or anything like that. No, no, you could just do it the next month. Okay, and then how many uh uh the shots were hormones?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so did you have to do that? Oh god, so at the beginning of your cycle, there was a regimen you had to follow, and then in your middle of your cycle, when we ovulate, I would have to do a trigger shot, like a needle, and I would just put it in my leg, and that would basically give me a window of when I was going to be ovulating. So it would make it happen at a certain time, essentially. And the medication that I had taken in the beginning of the cycle was to increase the chances of me producing an egg because at 40, you don't know if you're producing viable eggs, right? So you get all that tested beforehand. Oh, yeah. I went through lots of testing. Um, but you know, she said, look, you're everything looks good, you know. But I but even when everything looks perfect, but there still is only a five to ten percent chance. It's just it's science, it's math, and you know, that's an average, right? As an individual, it could have been way higher for me. I don't know. All of our bodies are so different. I mean, that's just statistics, it's statistics, right? But you know, you did anybody. So, no, I did all of that myself. I I like, yeah, did all of the the that first three months. I just kind of did it myself. Like at this point, I had not even really told my mom that I was doing it. What your sister, a friend. Yeah, oh well, I'd started a blog, so yeah, I I was sharing it. When you started blog and you were like, mom won't know. Yeah, no, my mom, she there was no way she was ever gonna read that blog. Like, no. So, yeah, so yeah, I did start the blog, and you know, I was excited at first when I started the blog. It was like this is gonna be so fun, and I got so much support like from people, and people kind of came out of the woodwork, and even just to say, Man, good for you, that's so cool. Like people you don't know very well, but yeah, so but then after like the first month and it didn't work, and you know, I would blog about it, and then after the second try, it didn't work, and I would blog about it, and then you start getting like, should I have started this blog? You know what I mean? This is really vulnerable stuff, and I expressed all my disappointment, but yeah, then when it worked, it was like, you know, writing my blog. I can't wait to write my blog. I can't wait to write my blog.

SPEAKER_01

Everyone's gonna be so happy birthday. So when did you tell your mom? Like after you got pregnant?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was probably three or four months. And I went away for work. I went to Halifax. I had to go to Halifax for two full weeks, and then I was in a hotel by myself for two weeks, and then I'd go to the office, and it was basically two weeks of me trying to figure out how I was gonna tell mom. My mom is super Catholic, she is super religious, Catholic. It's all I'm gonna say. She was born in 1946. I my whole life, my whole adult life was when are you gonna meet someone? When are you going to find someone? You're too picky, you're too this, you're too that. It's just their generation, right? And I had brought it up to my mom before when I was late 30s. I hadn't wasn't really thinking about it, but we were out for a walk and she started talking about it. And I remember saying, you know, mom, you don't actually need a partner to get pregnant now. And it was for me. Like, I mean, her face was like, what do you mean? And I was like, okay, and then I just I won't talk about that anymore. Right. What about your dad? Oh, my dad was so great. My dad So you told did you tell him before your mom? Yeah, my dad helped me pick the donor.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god. God, there's so many questions. So many questions, right? Dad knew before and didn't give it away to your mom. Like gave you no space to do that.

SPEAKER_00

So he knew I was doing it, but I didn't want him to have to keep that I was pregnant from my mom. So I didn't tell him when it had worked. Okay. I just I think he knew though, but he knew I was doing it, right? Like he knew my brother knew, my sister knew that I was doing it and trying. Oh, very supportive. Absolutely. Especially my dad. My dad is oh my god, he's almost 80 now, and uh, he was born in the wrong time. He's so good-hearted and kind-hearted. Not that my mom isn't, my mom is just different, right? Yeah, so yeah, I've narrowed down my donor choices to two and showed him everything. And I've been sending all of the packages to my sister and my best friend, Kristen. And so they were helping me as well. And I'm like, what do you think of this one? And I'd send them the audio recording of his interview and or his essay, because they all have to write an essay and and the medical histories. Like it's pretty in-depth, right? And my sister would be like, I don't like this one, I don't like that one. And so then we got I got down to two. And my dad came down and I said, There's the because you get pictures of them when they're young. They're like under five, mostly. And then we read through all the all the information, and I said, Okay, and he gave me his opinions, and then I I I chose. I chose.

SPEAKER_01

Like, is it like a big book of people? Like I I okay, here's how I imagine it. Okay. A huge book. Like from Harry Potter. I don't know if we're still there from Harry Potter. But from Harry Potter, like a huge book. And then like each page is this thick docket of a person. So it's all the information. It's like you know, is it like that?

SPEAKER_00

It's essentially like that, but it's online. It's not like an old book that you gotta blow the dust off when you get it, right? And then say the sperm. These men are dead now, but the sperm's still here. Their sperm survived. Okay, so all online. So okay. All online, yeah. So and I went with uh Seattle sperm bank. That's how do you choose that? So I just I kind of looked into all of them and I bought a couple of memberships because I mean it's all there's so much commercialization to it as well. Like it's a business, right? Yeah, right. So you get to see a little bit about each donor, but then you gotta buy membership to see the whole pack, right? The whole package. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How long's the membership?

SPEAKER_00

I bought a year. Okay. Yeah. Just but it didn't take me long to choose, actually. I mean, I put in some criteria. I wanted her to have like as high a chance as possible to look like me. So I chose like light hair.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't choose blue eyes. The the donor had brown eyes, actually, but she got them. And uh yeah, so I did put in some like education was really important to me. Their essays and their audio recordings were very I listened to them and read them so many times. And actually, at the end of the day, I'm almost went with the other one that I had narrowed it down to. And the reason I didn't is because his parents were killed in a car accident when he was quite young. So I didn't have the medical history of his parents because they had passed, they were killed. So I thought, well, you know, not to have that information is risky, right? Even though I mean they're checked for all kinds of things, they have to do tests, and this one, the one that I had chosen, it was, you know, he had good medical history, and they provide medical history for the parents, the grandparents on both sides, the aunts and uncles, and all the siblings. So it's pretty in-depth, right? Yeah, and you gotta go through each one and hold this person, this grandmother had breast cancer, or this, you know what I mean? Like you get to see a lot of information. So yeah, that's I ended up picking him. He's he Antonio was the name, his name. Is it his real name? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, the audio recording, what is it?

SPEAKER_00

Like, what does he say? So the person that works at the Seattle Sperm Bank interviews them and asks them, what do you like to do? What's your what do you where do you see yourself in 10 years? Like basically get to know you, interview.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, but not video, it's recorded, it's just audio.

SPEAKER_00

It's just audio, yeah. And then there's also a narrative that they write, and it's a letter to any child that is born from his sperm. So and I really liked what he wrote.

SPEAKER_01

Wait, what stood out? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00

Well, what stood out with him is that he was raised by a single mother that stood out to me. So this was it might seem foolish because I know like genetics are genetics, but I do actually truly believe that there's more to it, right? I feel like, you know, an either you have an egg and you have a sperm, and all of their experiences, all of their energy is in it, right? So if this was somebody that was raised by a mom, and and he just loved his mom, and it was really clear in his narrative, in his audio recording. He talked about her a lot and how she really worked hard. She was from Chile, so he's half Chilean. Um, and he talked about how she worked so hard as a single parent to take care of him and to give him the opportunities. And I just loved that because I knew that would probably be me too, right? As a single parent with one income or or whatnot. So I just feel like that respect he had for his mom somehow a part of that would translate into something good. You know, it's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

So that's how I chose him. Okay, so you tell everybody, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna use a sperm donor, I'm gonna find this person, and I'm gonna try this with my own money. And if it doesn't work, I'm gonna go IVF, I'm gonna get out alone. You've taken all these steps. Did anybody surprise you in their reactions, either in like a really beautiful way or in a bit of a disappointing way? And you don't have to name names.

SPEAKER_00

I would say yes, absolutely. I think that there were people I expected would struggle a little bit with the idea, and then they were incredibly supportive. And that felt good because I feel like, okay, these people trust me, you know, even if the path is unfamiliar to them. They trust me enough to think to believe that I know what I'm doing. And I was definitely surprised by some just unexpected moments of kindness, people I barely knew bringing me presents and making quilts for me. I mean, it was really nice to see that kind of support. Some of the messages that I got from people I didn't really even know very well, saying, You're so inspiring, or this is this is so cool. I mean, it because it's not a new idea at back in 2015, but it also wasn't really super mainstream as it is now. I think a lot more people do it now than back then. And then there's also my mom had reservations a lot, a lot of reservations. We grew up Catholic. It wasn't something that she could get behind at first, but I just think it was something that really went against the right way to build a family for her, and it was hard for her, and I think it was just all out of concern, more than anything. It wasn't because she was afraid of what people would think. I don't believe it was that. There might have been some of that, you know, growing in up in a small community, being Catholic, you gotta keep up with appearances, right? And all of that. But I think over time something really shifted in her for sure. And once I found out it was a girl, I think that's what it came really truly real for her. And I'll never forget when I so I I was living with them at the time because I was having some renovations done on my house. So I went to my appointment and my sister came with me, and we were lying there, and the nurse kept saying, he, like that's what she was saying. And I was like, in my head, okay, it's it's a boy. I was I wasn't disappointed, but in my head, I was like, What the fuck am I gonna do with a boy? Like it's you're gonna go mountain biking in the cycle. I'm gonna have to like go to hockey games and stuff. Oh my god, I don't know what I mean. You would have, you would have. Oh, I would have, I would have. Yeah, yeah. And then I said, So, so what's the sex? Like, what what gender is my child? Yeah, and she said, Oh, okay, yeah. Hold on a second. She's like, Oh, look right here, it's a little girl, and my heart just oh my god. Because I always just pictured her as a girl, you know? When she was growing inside me, I just always was talking to her as if she was a girl, and so then I was like, Thank God.

SPEAKER_01

I can do it. I'm just gonna have gorgeous hair.

SPEAKER_00

Look at your hair, it's always been gorgeous. I mean, boys are great, boys are great, don't get me wrong, love them. Yeah, so but that's when it became real for my mom because I brought home some pink cupcakes, and she was standing at the foot at the top of the stairs, and I opened the door, and she was like, Shh, what what would they what is it? What is it? And my mother does not get excited, she doesn't get excited about very much, and she was excited. It's the most I've ever seen her excited when I opened up the box, and she was like, and she was so happy, and so from then on, she was on board, right? And I I was also sorry no ball. There was also some friends I feel like were I wasn't disappointed in how they reacted, they were just kind of blasé, like they didn't really show the curiosity I thought they would show, you know. You know, some close friends, I they didn't know anything about the donor, they didn't ask, they didn't uh they knew nothing. Up there's my cat. Sorry. Why do you think they didn't ask? I don't know. I don't know. I think people are very into their own lives, and maybe it just didn't occur to them to ask about it. I had my rocks, I had Kristen, I had my sister, and and other good friends like Keith. Keith was we talked a lot about it, and I remember him and and Dave and myself. We went for a walk around Kitty Vitty when they came home, and they just let me talk about it, right? And sometimes that's all you want to do is just have someone listen to you talk about it and your concerns and your and all of that. But yeah, there were a few friends that I was disappointed in their lack of curiosity about it all.

SPEAKER_01

I love how you're wrapping that up or or stating that their lack of curiosity, because you're right. Even if you're unsure of how someone made the decision, or it's not what you would choose, or you don't know if you'll say something offensive, just ask. Yeah, exactly. Just ask. And you like allow Donna or whoever in the world in your life to set their own boundaries. But when you when you almost seem disinterested, and maybe it's not, maybe they're constantly thinking of you, maybe they're wondering so much about the donor, but it's like their own fear of how they'll come across or if they'll offend. And and I'm not making excuses for people, but sometimes it is just that, and you don't even know. Well, number one, you won't even know anything because you're not asking, but you don't know, I don't know, what kind of divide or barrier that could cause because you didn't have that person living with you for hours a day. So I'm sure like, let me talk about this, let me say, let me tell you how I'm feeling. Like somebody show up for me. And yeah, yes, you had Kristen, you had your sis, but sometimes it's really nice for other people to, you know, inject their energy into this situation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. Inject their energy. It's a good way to put it, you know. But I think that like big moments like that, they do tend to show you who has feeling was the emotional capacity to kind of sit with complex things because it's complex, right? Yeah, there's a lot to it that maybe they didn't understand why I would want to do it by myself or concern, like my mom did, your single income. Like, what how are you gonna do it? I think I had a lot of people in my life that were like, How's she gonna do that? You know, but they didn't, I think a lot of people don't understand that if you've never had anything different, you just do it, right? I had nothing to compare it to. So whatever it was gonna be, it was going to be, and I was gonna do it. I did I've never had somebody who did the dishes when I asked them to, right? I never I've never lived with someone else before. So there was ne I wasn't gonna be like, God, I wish I had somebody else to to do this with me. Right, it was never a part of my life, right? Right, so that was right.

SPEAKER_01

So it just made sense. You were like, I'm just this is just an extension of my my the life I already have and curated for myself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. Yeah, I just kept the step of finding someone else to do it with. That's all, right?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so the pregnancy, was there any time during it that you were like, how am I gonna do this?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, all the time. Yeah, it was all the time. Oh god, yeah, totally. And I think after I made the choice, it like it was really exciting at first, but then you're six months pregnant and you are it's happening. How am I going to do this by myself? Who's gonna look after her when I want to just have a minute or you know, so many things started going through my mind, and there was also I don't want to say it this way because it's not really I just can't really find the words to s express it the best way, but there was also a a sense of loss a little bit, I think. Because making the decision to do it on my own did put the idea of meeting somebody, of falling in love. There was moments where I was like, well, that's over now, right? I've let that go because this is my life from now on. And that was probably more hormones than everything, because you know, your life doesn't end because you have a child, it just gets better. Oh, right, and if that's what you want.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and the possibility to meet someone, especially in our 40s, yeah, the likelihood is they might, you know, they have kids. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

But you let go of this like romantic, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, but childish, like when we were all little kids and we were like, we're gonna meet this one person and they're gonna, oh my god, I found an essay that was like, describe your soulmate. I'm like, Paul's I in grade nine, like how what in the world would I possibly say? He has a seaside mansion. He has why are you just going to write this, right? Ask me what I was prime minister, what would I do? You know, like this. Anyway, so I get the idea of letting that go. Yes, I can appreciate that for sure. Um, and I think a lot of us let that go, whether we're coupled up or not, because there's some childish fantasy that it's just there really is.

SPEAKER_00

It's not what life is, right? No, and you know, we grew up during Disney movies, you know. Yes, it's like, oh, I just met you. We we're getting married in the morning, you know.

SPEAKER_01

It's like it's you fell in love with the beast that's holding you hostage. Right.

SPEAKER_00

All right, but listen, yeah, you're a mermaid and you need to accept that that's not a good match for you. You're gonna give up your beautiful voice. You're never gonna be able to speak again. Date this dude? Like, what?

SPEAKER_01

I know. Yeah, you're crazy. So funny, right? So you're lying, they're six months pregnant, and you're like, that's illogical.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's nuts. Yeah, there's also financial concerns, of course. I think my biggest fear was whether I could provide everything I wanted my child to have on a single income. So opportunities, experiences, security. I always knew it was going to be tight, and right that scared me because you know, and as we both know, the financially, economically things are are out the window now, right? I wasn't ever worried though about the her. Like I wasn't ever worried about the love or commitment I would have to her. I knew I'd had that. I worried about whether I could kind of give her the world sh the way I wanted to. You know, that fear was a little bit real. But they dissipated as as because it's not about it, it's kids are not, it's not about stuff. I really do truly believe that being a good parent is is love. It's really all you need. Your job is to help them find out who they are and facilitate it, right? And also to be really conscious. I put a lot of effort into this. To be really conscious of not projecting your own insecurities and your own shit onto tell everyone the secret of that.

SPEAKER_01

How do you do that?

SPEAKER_00

That's so hard. Therapy. Therapy is the secret to that. For me, it's really hard. I grew up constantly thinking about my weight and how I looked. I really, truly did. And it's only I would say within the past five years that I've actually started truly dealing with it. I would say I probably grew up with low self-esteem and struggled with what people thought of me. And that shaped how I saw myself. And I just never want that for her, you know? And great therapy is helping me make sure there's none of that that I pass on. Because once they leave you, once they she walks out that door and goes to school, you can't control what's said to them, you can't control any criticism they might get or comparisons, bullying. So the one thing I can control is just constantly reinforcing that she's perfect, just as she is, and that everyone's different, and that she doesn't need to earn her worth by being something. So I think that's what I work the hardest on because it's the most important, right? Like if they have a good self-esteem, they're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01

In doing that for her, are you being nicer to yourself? Yes, yes, because she she'll pick up on whatever cues you give, right? 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we don't talk about. I'm not gonna say we don't talk about Wade because she has been bullied at school fairly recently because she's in a little bit of a bigger body for her age. Wait, she's school grade four, and kids can be cruel. Yeah, it's uh yeah, not only like kids can be cruel, it's just the way of the world, you know, but it doesn't bother her. Doesn't bother her. No, we have this thing, and I probably shouldn't say this on a podcast, but we I always say this to her. Listen, what can we say to people who are mean to us and are assholes? And she looks at me and we say, Oh fuck them. So, you know, that's what we say.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm such a good mom.

SPEAKER_00

You just say fuck 'em, man. They don't they yeah, and you know, you can't you also want to be like, these are these, they're kids too, you know? Yeah, they're learning as they go. I hate saying kids will be kids because you know, parents should be teaching their kids not to to to do those things. But I think parents can teach them not to be mean and be bullies, and then they get into school where there's peer pressure everywhere, and they might not mean it, but you know, they say hurtful things and tested it out, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and oftentimes, like who knows who's bullying them, right? Or what's going on in their own little minds and worlds. Like, I don't think it's uh the most well-adjusted kid that goes out and bullies. Like, of course, we've all said stupid things while we're growing up because yeah, you know, you're little idiots, you have no idea. Um, but those those bullies, you know, that you can picture if you think of your child's god, yeah. I can see them all. They're all on Facebook now, right?

SPEAKER_00

It's like, uh, do you remember what you said to me? Fuck. Yeah. Uh friend request, you're like, oh like you, you may know this person. Oh, believe me, I do. Delete. Yeah, I talked about them in therapy a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01

I know them.

SPEAKER_00

Delete.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. Who do you go to when you're like, how do I deal with this coming home from school, like this situation? Or how do I teach her about that? Is there someone that is your biggest support for those?

SPEAKER_00

That would be so that would be Kristen. She's well, she's a school psychologist, which helps. Yeah, right. And she I mean, you hit the jackpot there. I totally did. And she's also just literally the nicest person on the face of the earth, right? I've just got her kindest, yeah, most gentlest soul. She has a daughter who is a year older than Maria. So everything I Through she's all she's gone through it or she's going through it too. So we talk a lot, and I'll just like oh this happened, and then she'll write me back with all of the things. But I think what she helps me do the most is she grounds me and and she makes me remember to not be too hard on myself, and that you're doing a good job because it's really easy in this society that we live in today to like listen to the mom podcasts. There's the mom groups, there's the cliques, there's all of that. I mean, we we live in a very sports-oriented city. I'm sure you remember Mount Pearl, it was all about hockey, still is, which is great, it's awesome, but it's not it's not really an artsy community, right um, right. So we, you know, we go elsewhere for for that, and because that's who she is, you know. And I tried putting her in every sport you can imagine. She just doesn't want to do it, you know? So we stay active when we move a lot, but she's not into sports. And she says, I'm just not a sporty girl, mom. Can you stop trying to put me in ball hockey? I don't want to do it. I did. I went out and bought like the fucking equipment, and she went once, and she's like, I'm never doing that again. No, thank you. No, thank you, Mom. Why don't you just listen to me? I'm like, You're right. I need to start listening to you. So yeah, it's uh but she's found a few little good friends, and I always tell her, Listen, one or two good friends is worth a a thousand times having a group of kids and nobody, nobody that's your person, right? Yeah. So I just try and she's only nine. I mean, she'll have piles of friends going through, you know. Every year will be probably a different group until she finds her actual tribe.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But as a mom, these are the things you think about, right? You think about what they see on YouTube, what they, you know, devices. I mean, that is like, oh god, the screen time. It's that's hard to manage with kids today. Really hard to manage. They love it, and every single swipe is catered to make them want more, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Everything to this great podcast about how it's like rewiring their brains. And it focused a lot on little boys, actually. Yeah. Um, because it was about Trevan Noah. I can't remember who he had on. It was last summer. So what yeah, 2025, summer 2025. If you want to go back and have a look, but yeah, it was about how we're creating this environment where we don't let kids just go out and get all their energy out. And it concentrated on little boys in the way that, you know, different hormones at different times, and little boys need to like rough house and all this stuff. And now they're like, you know, like arms down, they're not allowed to dang, don't touch, don't push, don't do this. And now they don't know how to get out. And they're like on these devices, and it literally is rewiring their little brains. And it's like, I sent it to my brother who has two boys, and he was in your he was in on vacation at the time, and he was like, Yeah, I'm not listening to this walking around my vacation over here, and I think he was in like Spain. He was like, and no, thank you. I do not need to listen to this. I'm like, I'm sure he has sense because he's into it. But I'm like, right, yeah, because it is heavy, especially yeah, it's kids. So I'm like, wow, that's interesting. And then I'm like, here you go, parents in my world. And it's like another thing to think about, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. All the parenting stuff out there is heavy, right? Yeah, because it's all it's all what you should be doing. It's hard and it's hard work regardless. You can't do it all. And you come to a point where you got to trust yourself. And I used to listen to all kinds of parenting podcasts, and I still do sometimes, but I did get to a point where I'm like, I need to stop doing this because it's my personality and and my thought process that I'm not doing that. Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna start doing that. You know, it's that's important. That's important. And like I said earlier, I really have gotten to a place where, you know what? If I love this child as much as I possibly can and facilitate her loving herself, that's she's gonna find her way. She will. And and the screen thing, I will say though, like if she's on her, if she's on her phone, she has a my old phone, it's not an actual phone, it's just like a little mini iPad. But if she's on it for too much, for too long, it her behavior changes. Like it really does. I see it, and I had to take it from her. You would think I'm literally taking her last drop of water that she's walking through the desert, and I'm taking it from her. Like that's how insane it can get. It's a thing, it's real. So yeah, I mean, you live in it as much as you can, but it's also their world. It's their world that they live in now. You know, it's not like when we were kids.

SPEAKER_01

No, not at all. I mean, to that point, when you need moment, when you need Donna time, right? Is that when it comes in? Because, like, yeah, who's giving you a break?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's no breaks. That is one thing about being now. My dad gives me breaks, but unfortunately, he hasn't been super well lately. He's okay, but but you know, it's his energy is a bit lower than usual. So I try not to utilize him as much as I used to, even though they're best friends. Like the two of them are like so close, so so close. But yeah, sometimes I do say, I'm gonna go downstairs for an hour and watch my show, right? So I do have to do that sometimes because you do need time for yourself. Like we're human beings. We need to regenerate, we need to think about things that are not and my here's the other thing about her. She has this massive imagination, which I want to foster and keep. Like, she still wants me to play with her. I'm a mom who plays, okay? So I've played with her since she was a baby. Like we've played hours a day, and so she's into she loves labo-boos now, and we got a few because I got a bit obsessed myself, but we play with them. Like we sit down and we have scenarios, and everyone has a name, and you know, like it's an ongoing drama with these laboo-boos, and it's fun. And I don't ever want to say no when she asks me if I will play with her, because soon she's not going to ask me, right? Yeah. And I know that's coming, so I'm gonna play with her for as long as I can, even though I fucking hate it sometimes. Like, I'm like, I'm gonna stick this little boo-boo, like, and sometimes she'll say to me, Mom, you're not playing right. And I'll be like, How are you today? Okay, I guess we'll go to the mall. And she's like, Mom, you're not being your normal play self. And I'm like, You're right, I'm not, because I don't want to do this. I don't like doing it anymore.

SPEAKER_01

I just want to watch Michelle. So of the nine years, what was the hardest? To be a single parent, what age? All of them?

SPEAKER_00

None of them? It's it's easier now for sure. Okay. I would say the hardest part or the hardest time. I mean, there's hard parts now, too, right? As she's navigating friendships and interactions with other people, that's definitely not easy. But I mean, those early days when she was a baby, I mean, you're just on survival mode, right? You're in survival mode the whole time. And then postpartum is a real, a real, real thing. I wouldn't say that I had postpartum depression. It wasn't like that, but my hormones, my mind was all over the place. I remember that I went through a period of time when she was, I don't know, maybe one or two months, like very early. I got into this, like, I Googled like child kidnappings, child murders. Like, it was it was rid it was insane, but I couldn't stop like looking up, like, oh my god, and making myself cry over these stories. It was so it's such a hormonal weird thing to do. And I remember telling a friend of mine that I was doing it. He's literally like, why are you doing that though? I'm stuck. Like, I don't know, I don't know why I'm doing it, but I can't stop. It's like and then I go down rabbit holes and I go on deep dives of these true crime streams. It was weird, it was a weird time, but then I guess my hormones leveled out and I came out of that. And I would say, like, go since she started school, it's gradually gotten old. She's gotten as she gets more independent, it's easier for me for sure.

SPEAKER_01

And when you were younger to give you a break when she was a baby, it was mostly your dad.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my parents for sure. Yeah, my dad's still the main babysitter, and now my niece, Destiny, who is my sister's daughter, she babysits now, and that's amazing because she is so, so good with children. She's such a sweetie. So I love giving her a little bit of pocket change, and she comes over, just hangs out with Maria, right? So it's easy.

SPEAKER_01

You think you could have done this if you had moved away? Like, let's say you moved to Toronto when we graduated from MBA and like could you have done this elsewhere without your family close by?

SPEAKER_00

I'll say yes, I could have done it. It would have been much harder, much, much harder. But like I said before, you don't know what you can do if you've never done it. So you you just would have you just make it work as much as you possibly can. You figure it out. You figure it out.

SPEAKER_01

I mean you can think your way out of anything, right? You can convince yourself that it won't work, or you're not prepared, or this will happen, or this will happen. And like to your point about worrying about all of the things you've worried about, I I'm sure every two like partnership that has had a child or one or two or three, like have the same concerns or fears or apprehensions, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Like, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it's worrying for the rest of your life, right? That's what it is. That's what parenthood is. Did you ever think of having more? I did. When Maria was eight months, I went back to the fertility clinic and I said, Do you think like, are my chances even lower now? Like, what do you think? And and it was Deanna Murphy, Dr. Deanna Murphy. She's incredible. And she said, I think your chances are just as high as when you had Maria the same. And that if you want to do it, if you want to have another child, you you should do it, you should do it now. But I thought more about it and I just decided against it. Well, first of all, I I went to the Seattle's firm bank and I contacted them, and there was nothing, no more left. There was there was of the same, yeah, Bentonio. So I said, Well, you know, I I'm good. I'm good, we're good. And I was probably still a little postpartum in my crazy, crazy time. So I'm glad. Now when I look back, I I am glad. I would love it if she had a sibling, but she has she's very close to destiny, her cousin, and you know, she's got a lot of love in her life. So and you know what? There's a lot of single child families now. Like when we were a lot, yeah, a lot.

SPEAKER_01

There wasn't a lot around us, but yeah, I think women are having a choice now. I mean, hopefully more women and more women and more women, but yeah, I'm like, I don't remember one of my friends one time said something about his grandmother having seven kids, and I was like, You I I literally was like, I wonder how many she wanted, and the look on his face, and like, have you never thought of this? Like, your grandmother, in all likelihood, didn't want seven kids. Yeah, she didn't.

SPEAKER_00

I know she didn't.

SPEAKER_01

No, right? So I think it's that. Yeah, there's a lot of of uh single-kid households, and it's great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is great. Yeah, you know, I think it it she's more dependent, probably, more independent, maybe. I mean, I don't know. Like there's there's pros and cons, I guess, to everything, you know. But just because you have assembly doesn't mean they're gonna be your person for the rest of your life, right?

SPEAKER_01

And just same as like thinking, oh, I have a partner and now I can have a kid because it's all gonna be it's all gonna go great. And it's like, no, you don't know what will happen. Yeah, the same with siblings. I mean, you've met mine, right? A little worse.

SPEAKER_00

I know. I was gonna say, but God okay, what is dating like? Okay, well, I don't date. Okay, I'm not out there. I'm not out there right now. I have gone online. Like, I mean, that's really the only way to do it. It's impossible to meet somebody organically and with my life. At least it hasn't happened. So I have gone online, and honestly, I'll get a message and be like, hi. What do you? I'm like, I I can't respond to this. I can't do it, and I always shut it down. So I've created a profile, I would say, probably five times within the past nine years, and it doesn't last. It never lasts because I'm just like, I'm not responding. If you have nothing to say in your introduction, your first words to me, then hey. Hey, it's just so lame. And I would never reach out to someone myself because I don't know why. I just I don't know. Anyway, yeah, no, it's not on my radar right now, although it has been. I was reading a book. I'm reading a book right now, actually. And there's a it's a really nice book, and it's god, what's it called? I can't remember. Something country. Anyway, it's about these, it's a love triangle kind of. And there was a scene I was reading, and it was like pretty sexy. And I got this like little tingle, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm still alive. Oh, okay, okay, yeah. I'm more than just I'm more than just a mob. And you're you're an online data like it's like I'm like a lag on a bumble, you know. No, I'm just it's too. I mean, it's some I'll be totally honest with you. I will I would love to meet somebody, but only if they would enhance my life, you know? Only if they'd bring something that made life better. I don't want any drama. I don't need to be quest like dating's hard. Dating's hard. It's work too. Yeah. You gotta go through a lot of people before you find somebody that might might you might jam with, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And now you have to, well, you'll want to jam with two people, you know, like yeah. I'm sure you're not you're not just dating for Donna anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, like you have to think about that. We're very connected, right? So, because it's just her and I. It's just been her and I. So, you know, it's we're packaged. And a couple of times she she has started recently saying, like, you know, mom, how come you never go on any dates? And I was like, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01

Wait till you see how hard that is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right, exactly. And I said, Why? I said, What would you think? I asked her, I said, What would you think if like I decided that I wanted to like get married? Or I brought a man into our home. She was like, No. And so, yeah, I mean, she would be. I know that she that wouldn't be an issue at all. I mean, she has no, she knows exactly who she is, right? She's known her story since she was born. There was never a moment of me telling her.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I wondered about that. So so right away, you were talking about uh a donor. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Her she knows she's donor, can she's donor conceived. I I I started telling her the moment she was born, like rocking her. Oh that's so beautiful. Yeah, I just never ever wanted it to be something I had to tell her. Oh I didn't want it to be some kind of secret that was kept. Was never like that. And she's always known that she could have siblings, and now she's met two of them. Yeah, yeah. We did a call. So one is a boy who's a year older than her. He lives in Seattle or just outside of Seattle. And I do know that there's a little girl in Australia, we're in touch with them. So, like we're friends on Facebook and they're on Messenger, they play Roblox together sometimes. Yeah. And so there is also another little girl I know for sure that's in Australia, but her mom hasn't. I guess it's just not, it's not, you know, what she wants to do right now. And I totally respect that. But someday, like, yeah, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

I guess when you do this, you can fill out a thing like I can be contacted and I don't ever want to be contacted. And so you were open about it. And then how did you get linked up with these other families?

SPEAKER_00

So there's a site called the Donor Sibling Registry. So you go in, you register, and you register your birth and your child, and there's a room, I guess, sort of, like uh, or a page for uh the name of your donor. So like Antonio, the numbers. And I went in and there was like there was five others there, and I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. I knew that there had been when I chose him, I knew that he had that his specimen had produced other children, but I I didn't know anything else but that. So yeah, I went in and I registered her, and then it was probably like I mean, I was registered on there, and I used to go in occasionally to check, but never any messages or anything like that. And then one day there was, and it was the father of uh of the little boy in in Washington who he said loved, you know, he said the name of his son, and he said he's really curious and wondering if you'd be open to being in contact. And so we sent pictures back and forth, and like oh my god, seeing some of the resemblances too is really, really incredible. Like it's and right away you told Maria.

SPEAKER_01

Did you say, like, hey, I put you, like I've registered us on this site? Yeah, yeah. Was she like so excited?

SPEAKER_00

Not really, it didn't really faze her much. Um she's always known somewhere in the world, she probably had there were kids that used the same donor, and she knew that they were half siblings. So yeah, like I would show her pictures and she'd be like, Oh, that's kind of that's cool, and then she'd go back to doing what she was doing. It's so funny because then you're like, What do you feel about that? How does it make you feel knowing? And she's like, What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01

Like, I don't feel anything else, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. There's been there's never been any big d bomb dropped on her, right? So it really has just been an organic path for her. She's always known, always known.

SPEAKER_01

It's just like your path to being a mother. You were like, I have lived on my own, I do support myself financially, I built my own life, and that's just like it's a natural progression to bring this other human into it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And you see, you know, you I read I read a lot about, you know, because some people they do keep it secret, right? They don't even, you know, there's I've watched documentaries about kids that have grown up thinking their father is their biological father and it's not, and they used a donor because they had to, but due to infertility. It's like, oh man, I just I can't stress enough that like it's always just best to be honest, you know, like truth kids the truth will always come.

SPEAKER_02

Out, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and if you you should never like I had no preservations about doing it that way. I didn't want any shame to be associated with it. I didn't want it to be a secret. It just felt the best way to do it. And you know, and I say I felt it was the best way to do it. Like I did, I did my research, you know. How should I? What's the best way to do it? And that's all the research pointed to just being true. Let her in on it.

SPEAKER_01

Tell her her story. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it normalizes everything instead of being like, uh, yeah, sit someone down on, I don't know, their seventh birthday and be like, okay. Eight. Yes, it makes it, it makes it, it makes it something. Instead of it makes it just natural. Because it is natural. It's exactly how all all other babies are born. It's just a different story. Exactly. What would you say looking back over the whole process and the decision, like even back into your 30s up to now, what was the hardest thing about it?

SPEAKER_00

I would say that the hardest thing about it was probably making the decision to do it. To just there's my life before I made the decision, and then there's my life after the decision, right? And saying goodbye to a lot of things that a lot of ways that I thought my life would go and being okay with it. You know? And the other hard part is like I said, just trying to help her trying not to not to create like generational trauma or to change the narrative, right? For her. You know, not that I mean we've all had our traumas or whatever, but trauma can change a lot in the future, you know? And you have to be really aware of it that you're not that it's not guiding you, I guess. You know.

SPEAKER_01

Could every parent go and have uh like, yeah, it's not guiding you.

SPEAKER_00

It's not guiding you, you can't let it guide you because it will and you gotta deal with your shit. You gotta deal with your inner child shit. You gotta and you know, that also means like you probably gathered a little bit, like my mom and I didn't really get along, you know. We were very different, very different. I don't ever remember being that kid that was like I never agreed with anything she said. Like I never did, so I always thought like the whole religion thing, and I shouldn't say this probably out loud on a podcast, but I always thought it was foolish, always, even when I was little, I just thought it was all kind of foolish. And my mother was super religious, so we just constantly were against each other, and that shaped a lot of who I was as I grew up, but you gotta forgive and you gotta realize that people they do the best they they can. Like I mean, it's everyone says it. You do the best you can with what you have, right? And it goes back like it's all a cycle, you know, until you stop it. Until you stop it, yeah, and you have to put a lot of effort into doing that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Looking back, same time frame, easiest thing.

SPEAKER_00

Easiest thing is just she's pretty easy, she's hilarious, first of all. She's such a funny, funny kid. So funny, so I get it. But she has this sense of humor. Oh god, what was it last night? Oh, oh, we were I was she asked me about the war that's happening in Iran, and we were sitting on the sofa, and I said, I don't know the details about it. I know it's just started and it's not good, and you know, the US is involved. And I just I gave her like some basics that I knew, and then she said, Can we look it up? And I said, Well, I said, Let's just look on CNN to see what the the the recent means are, and the real news, the real news, yeah, the real news. So we go through and I say, Oh, there's there's his name, it's the old buffoon, and she's she hates him and she's always saying he's such a douchebag and stuff. And she said, Oh my god, like this many people had died. I said, Okay, well, we'll just let's let's move on or whatever. And then there was an ad for it was a for vacuum cleaner. I think it was like everyone needs a good vacuum cleaner, like it was right under the thing about Iran. She was like, That's crazy. Like, oh, 55 people were killed today, but you know what you need a new vacuum cleaner. Like, and I just thought it was so like, oh, she's just so naturally funny. Like, just to see that and and get how ridiculous, you know? Yeah, she's really funny.

SPEAKER_01

And early, my friend, like how much ads are in your face, and you're yeah, you're trying to get something, and it's almost it's so insidious you don't even notice it, but her little eyes still are yeah, she saw it, she saw the ridiculousness of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, she's smart, she's smart, but she's also she can also be a real piece of work, man. Like I'm telling you, she can try my patience like nobody else, and she is strong-willed and stubborn, and these are all things that are gonna I know that she's going to need in her life. So I try my best just to kind of navigate it, you know. Curls can be challenging too, right? Oh yeah, there's ups and downs.

SPEAKER_01

We all are exactly, and like letting her be her own human is challenging because you know, sometimes it was like just do it because I said it. It's like uh but I need to understand why because I said so. Because I said so. And I get that sometimes it's like because I said so, it's just fuck me. But I remember being on a train one time with a friend of mine, and she's three kids, and one of them was leaning against a thing, it was a subway, and they were leaning against the door, and she was like, please lean off the door. And he was like, Why? And she was like, Okay, here's what could happen. And she and we were exhausted, we'd been out all day. We weren't, we were anyway, they live in Europe. We were overvisiting them, like, you know, it's busy. You're like trucking three kids around cobblestones, da-da-da. There's people everywhere. And I watched her patiently explain to him what could happen if that side of the train opened, because like we'd gotten on on the other side, so he was like, That's the side that will open. And I was like fascinated because I was exhausted as well, and I didn't have kids with me. Yeah, and when they all went to bed and we were up, you know, having a glass of wine, I'm like, You are such a patient mother, and she was like, But I want him to know I don't want to just be like, because I said so. Because when I'm not there, he'll do it. And what if what if he pulls up to a train station where he's on that side of the tracks? I'm like, right, that's actually quite smart. But like I was tired, I would have been like, cuz I fucking told you not to leave me with that because I'm your parent and you're gonna listen to everything I say. Yeah, you know, but I still think of it. I'm like, it's yeah, parenting is um it's work, it's like being conscious, even when you're exhausted of like why you need to say the things that you need to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

She looks like she she bedtime is tricky sometimes. She's like, Well, I'm not tired though. And I'm like, Well, you have to be tired, so you I am you've been up. I'm exhausted, so we are going to bed. And and usually I fall asleep in her bed so much so that like last week she literally was like, because usually she would come over and get in my bed halfway through the night, like pretty much every night. And uh so but I've just been falling asleep in her bed and then waking up the next morning, and she'll say, Mom, you know, you gotta start sleeping in your own bed. I'm like, Oh, okay, okay. I will need more space. And she's right into makeup now. Loves makeup, loves makeup, loves loves highlighter, but uses it as foundation. So like it's not it's not just here or here. It's that's cute. I'm like, you look like Edward fucking Cullen when he goes into the sun and you cannot wear that going out. Please, for God's sake, take it off.

SPEAKER_01

God. Okay, how is Donna doing?

SPEAKER_00

I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Therapy has helped me get pretty settled. Like I'm going through, I'm, you know, we're together with the perimenopause and stuff. I would probably say I'm in menopause now. But I I am taking HRT and it has seriously changed my life. Same scame changer. Do you do the pound? I do the gel and I do progesterone at in the night. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I can't even you don't realize what a beast you were until you come back to yourself. You know, it's like, oh my god, I was awful for a couple of years there.

SPEAKER_01

It's a game changer. I got on it early, I think, because my sister went through absolute misery with perimenopause and she's seven years older. So she was so open to me about her beast years. Yeah. That when things started to happen, I was like, oh, and so yeah, and not that I had an easier time with it. I had a hysterectomy. Like I've gone through some things. But um, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, a couple of years ago. I had not endometriosis, the endiomyosis. Endioendiomiosis. Anyway, I still have my ovaries, so I still get to like go through perimenopause and all that. But I don't know if I'm in menopause because I don't bleed anymore. It's amazing. Um, but I do know when I'm on my period because I still have, you know, every now and then I'm like, I'm gonna if David choose any left, and then I'm like, oh, period. But I did get on HRT early because I saw what my sister went through. So and so when I was like, I'm not sleeping well, um, my gynecologist put me right on HRT. And then I I don't know if it's placebo, and I don't care, but within three days, slept solid. No, and I'm like, oh my god. And so my sister-in-law and I were on vacation together this past summer. I I think for the seven days we were together an hour a day, we're like, anyway, HRT, it's maybe this, it's made me this. And it's just like even things like I'm like, oh, do we all become a little more anxious as we age? And then it's like, oh my god, anxiety is a part of this. Like, yes, what the what? Anyway, so and nobody tells you, nobody tells you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you have to you have to find it all yourself. You had Nadine. Sorry, you had Danielle, but yeah, no, I had to you just think that you're there's something, you're sick or something's going on, and then you look it up and it's like, oh no, it's just this is part of life as a woman. Yeah, I just don't believe in suffering if you don't have to.

SPEAKER_01

Fuck no, and like that's what angers me about it. It's like, well, this is just life. It's like, yeah, you're at that age, and it's like, but I don't, I I would like to sleep through the night again, please.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't want to like wake up as if I was just had a shower, you know, and feel awful and clammy and gross. And I just HRT. HRT. My mom so great. My mom doesn't know about it. So I keep things from from her sometimes because you know, oh, a thousand years ago it was deemed that it could cause breast cancer, even though that was like a very small sample and it wasn't even a good study. Oh, now it's come out that's been debunked completely, and that it's actually people still people still believe that.

SPEAKER_01

It screwed a whole generation of women, like it really, really did. It really did.

SPEAKER_00

I would rather, even if it did, even if it did cut my life a little short at the end, I would still stay on it because I would rather live a life that is peaceful and I am myself and happy and maybe lose a year or two at the very end when I'm like 120. Then take it. Yeah, I'd rather I'd rather live that way than in misery for the next 40 years, right?

SPEAKER_01

Can you imagine? No, and they're like, oh, we don't know how long it lasts. HRT, everybody might be forever. HRT.

SPEAKER_00

But you'll live long, a miserable fucking life. Yeah, you'll you'll be it's gonna be awful from here on in.

SPEAKER_01

Everyone's gonna hate you, and equally you'll hate them back. But yeah, you'll live. You'll live. Oh thanks for coming on and telling me your story. I really, really appreciate it. And I just have much to say you too.

SPEAKER_02

You too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I just love you. You're just uh I remember when you posted that blog. I forgot you had a blog. I was thinking it was on Facebook, but you opened up conversations with me and my sister because it's something she'd considered at one time. She's older than you, so I think by the time you did it, it she was like, I'm I'm aged out. But she really strongly considered it. And we had some really beautiful conversations. And uh yeah, and when your name comes up, it's always we admire what you did. And I know a lot of people became moms and dads, and and I admire, I mean, I admire all really good parents, but um, yeah, you you opened up the door for some really beautiful combos. So thank you. Thanks for sharing it.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you. It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I'm gonna go see Keith this Friday. We're having dinner together.

SPEAKER_00

I love it. Are you going to Toronto or is it? I'm going to Toronto to see him. Okay. Yeah. I haven't seen him in so long.

SPEAKER_01

God, I got him. So much. I know. I miss him. I can't wait to tell him we did this. I think I told him we were doing this, so anyway, I shared. Oh, I love him. I will. Well, thank you, Donna. Thank you, very welcome. Take care.