TOS of Conscious Uncoupling

This week Nadine invited Hillory on the pod to talk about divorce - she said yes, as long as what we could actually talk about was love <3 For Hillory, they are one in the same. 

Hillory Tenute is a First Nations leader, advocate, entrepreneur, founder of Lodge Consulting, beader, auntie, and dog mom whose approach to relationships will genuinely make you rethink everything you think you know about what it means when something ends. Yes, this conversation is about divorce, but not the kind you're probably imagining. No villain. No blowup. Just two people who loved each other enough to stop. 

Coming from a family where you don't just "throw people away", Hillory knew that when she realized she no longer wanted to be married, the work was in figuring out how to separate but remain connected. To, essentially, end well. 

In this episode, Hillory tells us about the surgery that shifted things and what it felt like to finally say the sentence out loud. The night Mike's things were gone and she was alone in a house that no longer felt like hers. How it felt to explore her sexuality, and what it actually looks like to build a life that's fully, unapologetically yours - the new apartment, the solo trip to Europe, her Margie era, a new app (Matchee Matchee) and the new love she wasn't looking for. 

If you've ever loved someone you had to let go, this conversation is for you.  It's warm and honest, a little bit funny and a lot bit true x

@the_otherside_pod

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Other Side Pod. I'm Needine. We're not experts. We're just humans having a human experience we think we can learn from, or relate to, or laugh at, or cry over. So hit download, dive in, and hear how folks found themselves on the other side. We're recording with Hillary. Um, Hillary, what is your favorite thing about living in Ottawa?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Oh, that's such a good question. Um, okay, I recently met someone uh who had just moved to Ottawa, and they were telling me about how they live in the Glebe, and they were like, oh, I'm just like not sure about my surroundings. It was like, no, Ottawa summer in the Glebe along the canal is my favorite thing. It is my favorite thing. I find it so beautiful, and I just find there's a moment, and I saw it this weekend where everyone's outside and it's the most lively and it's exciting and it's fun, and you just see like neighbors helping each other out. And like it was also like that time where like the the lilacs are out, and so you just get these giant whiffs of it while I'm walking my dog. I would say that's it, and also the fact that despite misconceptions, like Ottawa is actually a fun place to be. Um, and there's just a lot of, I don't know, I feel like people who love Ottawa really love Ottawa and like we go hard for it. And so I just that pride that I really appreciate. Yeah, well, it's my favorite thing, and everything's like in walking distance to one another, if you're in downtown, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, yeah. And the weather, oh my god. Yesterday in Newfoundland, as everyone knows, I'm from Newfoundland because I talk about it nonstop. It snowed June 1st. It snowed. Love it, right? I'm like, oh gosh. Anyway, but there's no place like home, as we've talked about.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Um, we are here to talk about divorce. Um, but when we were chatting about this a few months ago, actually, and you said conscious uncoupling, and I obviously went to Gwyneth Paultrow, but I do think there's something to it for you, and I need you to, I don't need you to, I suppose. I would love for you to tell me more about that. Yeah. The difference.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So I think it's really important um contextually to situate this conversation because I find it's not for everyone. And I also fully understand that when you're going through like a separation or divorce or whatever it is, there are times when like no, like the relationship must end, right? In my case, no one did anything wrong, right? Like that was that was just really it. I feel, and I'll probably get emotional throughout this because I really like to honor those emotions when they happen, but no one did anything wrong. There was still such like an abundance of love and care for each other and each other's families. And we just kind of see now I'm getting all emotional thinking about it. There was just a point where we just realized that there was more that we wanted for ourselves, and it might not necessarily have been the right fit. Um, and like we gave it our all. Like we did all, like we did the therapy, we did the courses, we did like we did the things, right? And we never really fought, we just really started diverting into different directions. And so I come from a long line of relationships are just so fundamental to like your core of like who you are and stuff. And we just don't really, and I'm trying to say this without making it sound too crass, but we don't really just like throw people away. We really do try to keep when I say we, I mean like our family, and I think a lot of it is rooted in my parents' own love story as well, which is like really sweet, and like they're still together, and they really just like against all odds, they you know decided like we're just gonna pick up and go across the country and live together and love each other and have two children and then come to Ottawa and then continue to have these children. But um, with all due respect to like my grandparents, like there was always this contention, uh, I think between one, my grandmother's experience on my mom's side of going to like you know, being part of the residential school system. Um and then on my dad's side, I just think like small town mentality, an indigenous woman, non-Indigenous person, all this stuff. So, like contextually, very interesting. So they really wanted to create their own family. And I feel like they really instilled on us, like I just remember as a kid, like we were all really close and stuff. And um, so growing up with that and having that as an example and just understanding sort of a more decolonial approach to relationships, it was really important. Like it was without a question that Mike would stay in my life. Like that, that was just it. Like, without a doubt, this human being is gonna be permanently in my life. It just might not be in this particular model right now. Um and that like love can look like in a different form that doesn't have to be so uh husband and wife, or wife and wife, and husband and husband, like it can be a myriad of different things, and it just shows that um there's an abundance of that that we can give to each other and to like ours others around us and our community and so forth. So that's where that came from. I also know that, like, yes, I I'm a bit more facetious with it when it's like the Gweneth Pultural Conscious Uncoupling, but it was true. Like, we it was so important for us to go to couples counseling and to figure out how to end this particular part of the relationship while still maintaining a friendship throughout it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Wait, before we go further, so many questions. Introduce yourself. Oh, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So Anin Bojo, Aftibaba, Negigakwe, Gimmepsoshinodum Kwe, Hilary Indigenicas, Nayashingamin and Dojiba, Ottawa Dodum, Negigododum. So my name is Hilary. Um, I'm originally from the Chippewaza Nawash First Nation, part of the Sogin Ojibwe Nation Territory, uh, located in like Georgian Bay Bruce Peninsula, uh, Nayashingaming. Uh, and I am here in Ottawa on Algonquin unceded territory. And I am Otter Clan. And yeah, that's that's me. I'm Hillary. I'm a dog mom. I've got my dog Annie that I co-parent with. Um, and I am, I would say, I'm an entrepreneur and a huge Ottawa advocate. And um yeah, I'm a beater. Like I just am an auntie. That's like my favorite role in the world. And that's yeah, I think that's that's I mean, there's many layers to me. I'm an onion. It's beautiful. Yeah. Let's peel it. Yeah, let's peel this onion.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Okay. You already spoke about this a little bit with your mom and dad as um a point of reference for you as a little kid, like watching them have a nice relationship, and obviously every relationship has their stuff, but yeah, this deep love for each other. So when you were a little kid, were you one of those little kids that were like dreaming of getting married and using the curtain as a veil over your head, or were you just kind of like, whatever happens, happens.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I was not that kid that like had the veil on their head. Um, and I think I so I also had a grandma uh who is now since past her, I love telling that story. If I can't, I know I'm never gonna answer your question full on, and this is just such a this is such a Nishinaabe way of doing things.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I was like, I was This is like part one of five.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

We'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, listen to a Newfoundlander. There's that's a commonality right there about how we tell a story. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

So I would say one of my biggest influences on who I am is from my grandmother, Margie. Um, and the your mom's mom? My dad's mom. And so she was just like she loved the finer things in life. Um Margie? Margie? No, like she was Margie was a big bougie. She like she just wanted a different life for herself and like the beat of her own drum kind of thing. And I remember early on and being young and sitting in her like really nice condo and her saying to me, like, Hillary, never be the stewardess, be the pilot. Never be the secretary, be the CEO. And I was like, okay, whatever, Margie. And like, and the reason why, like just like, okay. But like that stuck with me, and really about like who I wanted to be. Don't get me wrong, Margie had her own stuff going on. Like, so don't we all? Yeah, and like the reason I call her Margie, not grandma Marge, this is my favorite story to tell about her. So she lived with us for a period of time, and I remember she walked me to the end of the street to go catch a school bus, and I had to introduce her as this is my father's mother, this is Marjorie, and so like never like this is my grandma, and so like her, yeah, so like she was the best, and so this is my father's mother. Yeah, she was the best, and so over time, um, you know, there's also like a little sense of like a bit of that coldness too, that I think comes from that of like having her having to protect herself, but she this one's this this cuts deep. She refused to come to my wedding because it never it never hurt me. Like it just didn't, because I just I I understood her. Like I was like, no, she's not gonna come to that. Like she couldn't cover that, but she just didn't want to go. Like, I I think a lot of it, she came to my bridal shower and that was really sweet, but I think she just never really wanted me to get married. Like, she just didn't, she wanted so much more for me, but without at the same time acknowledging like I was moving up in my career and stuff. And so that really stuck with me for a really long time. Just that sort of this getting married, and I look back back at it now, and I've had these conversations with Mike where it's like I don't know if I fully wanted to get married, and I think it was just like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do, right? And so I did it and I loved it. It was aesthetically beautiful. I got I got to plan a party, I looked incredible, like I designed everything from head to toe, and it was just like I loved it, you know, and we had a great time, it was a fantastic party, it was the best. And how old were you? 31, 32. Yeah, yeah. And like my brother, my older brother just got married a few years prior, and I was like, oh, okay, this is this is what I have to do now, right? And so um, but don't like I have no regrets on that whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

No, no, no, but I get it. Like I can relate actually. I also got married at 31. Oh just for a year though. Yeah. Um, how long were you dating beforehand?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Like two years, like two, three years. And I always look back on it like it really was me pushing it, right? Like, let's move in, like, let's let's um buy a house together, let's let's get engaged, let's get married. So you were the CEO. I was the CEO. Exactly. Oh my god. Do you know how many times I've referenced that in our relationship?

unknown 11:51

Like all the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So she my uh Margie passed away before um I separated and stuff. And so I always I do wonder what she would say, but my dad said something to me this past February, and he has said a lot of like beautiful things to me over the years, but he just said he's like, you know, you're he's like, you know, Grandma Marge would have been like super proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, when you said I wonder what she would have said, I'm like, just sit still for a hot second. I bet you you can hear it. Like, you know, yeah, because you saw her.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah. And I I love that we're bringing her up because it just reminds me of something is when I came to that realization that we were heading towards a departure in our relationship, Mike and I, um, that I remember saying out loud, like, oh, I'm in my Margie era. And like that was it. And I got this like fabulous apartment and I put fabulous things in it. You know, I have a clawfish. It's like the second bedroom is like just a closet where I like have my little desk. And it's just like it's nice things. And when I went to Europe, it was like I am just spending I'm gonna spend money on nice things that I'm gonna keep forever that remind me of her, but also remind me of me, of who I am and where I've come from and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

And this was the trip you took to treat yourself after going through the brutal, brutal process. Yeah, even when you're consciously doing it with love for each other. Hard, so hard to get separated. Yeah. Um, you treated yourself to a trip to Europe.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

I did. Yeah, I did, and I loved it. I loved every moment of it. Um by yourself? I did, yeah, by myself. Yes. But I I travel a lot by myself for work, but I had never done anything like this where I was like, I didn't sign up for tours or anything like that. It was like, no, like I'm literally like, what are my favorite things to do? It's to shop, it's to look at nice things, it's to, you know, and I just would just walk the streets of Paris and like, you know, I I think I was saying at the beginning of this, like I came home with like two giant hockey bags, just like full of like clothes from vintage stores, like pieces, like things, but it was also around Christmas time, so there was also a lot of presents in there for people. So, like that's I just need to put that as a caveat. It wasn't all on me, but that's also part of my love language is like being able to buy people things and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Sames, yeah, wait, that was in before I hit record. So telling people that you went to Europe, because this is such a nice story. You okay, tell me, set set the scene for me, and we'll go back because I do want to hear about the moment when you realize like this is ending. Yeah. Um, but you was this like, are you legally divorced? Is this like when you signed a separation agreement?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Okay. So we're not legally divorced. Um, but I don't know if that's ever like a necessary thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

It's just like where I am in my life and like where he is. And I've just sort of like, I don't, I don't you don't need to Yeah, like I just don't know. And I also don't, it's just not a focal point. And I I feel like we are so um aligned in where we've ended, like in terms of that, that it's just like, oh, we don't need because I I find those structures to be very colonial as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, having to ask the government for permission to leave my husband was awful. That's why I didn't like Dave and I were like, we don't need to get married, we can be like married without ask like signing a pay pay piece of paper or government whatever. Uh so I get it, it was brutal.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah. So setting this the scene, we bought a house in Vanier. Um, and I always read Vanier really hard. And um again, and I like that was a lot of like my pushing. Uh, because now we need a house because then we're gonna get engaged. You do, then and then we're gonna get married, and then the pandemic happened. Um you got married right before the pandemic. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

You got married right before the pandemic? 2019, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, like right before. So um, yeah, we got married August of 2019, and then uh right into a pandemic, which was interesting because I travel so much for work, and so I was like, oh, this this will be really interesting to see how this works out. And actually, it was great. I was like, oh, we're like, we're a quarantine. Like it was it was a lot of fun. We had we had a really good time. Um, so which is interesting because I was like, that wasn't the demise where I think a lot of people went through some big shifts in their relationship. I think like that almost like made our relationship a little bit stronger in a sense where in like terms of like that friendship aspect of it and like just a partnership. Um but anyway.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So what was the when you both were like, okay, this is final, and then you were like, I'm gonna go to Europe and I'm just gonna like treat myself after going through something. So, like what where for me it was signing the separation agreement, that was a major step, and then signing the divorce paper. I was like, Oh god, okay. So, what was it for you?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

For me, it was selling the house. Okay, yeah, it was selling the house and just immediately like I'm in my Margie era, like this is this is it. Like I knew she went to Europe and I was like, whatever, Marge, we're going to Europe, you know, and I brought a little picture of her with me. So we went to go. Um, I went to Paris. I was in Paris for um like a week, and then I went to Lille, which is a little bit northern France, and then I was in Brussels, and that was like my second time being in Brussels. I love Brussels, um, and I was there for a while and like popped kind of all over, and then I ended up in Amsterdam on my last leg of my tour, and I was there for about like almost three weeks, and I just fell in love with Amsterdam.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Like that was the future place where you and I go and live. Yes, yes, where we retire.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

And just like, yeah, no, it'll be it'll be fabulous. And I I feel like at one point for about a year or so now, I've been like, I really want to be the ambassador of Amsterdam. Like, just I think you need the a dual person role.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I think that's Hillary and Nadine together. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, totally. I need a coach. Yeah, I'm there, I'm there. Yeah, international relationships, relations. I'm gonna need a coach. Like, I love it. I don't want to crack under pressure. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I'm your girl. So you were gone for like two months, three months in par in Europe?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, no, no, it wasn't that long. I yeah, it was like it was like three weeks, but it was by myself and it was good. And then I came home and it was Christmas, and then I just kind of stayed in my apartment. So I had moved into my apartment in October. Um and then and I I would say like the hardest part about that was like there was about a two-week overlap where I was in the house by myself, and that was hard. Like that was really because all of his stuff was gone.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Oh, I remember that moment too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, like really hard stuff. And um, even though like I knew where he was, and like I everything. Like, I just it's not, you know, we were still talking like almost like every day. And then when they moved everything out, again, I recognize the privilege that I have and like I've worked really hard for that um to be able to afford these things. But I hired uh packers and movers for some of the last end of my stuff, and I just stayed like in a really nice hotel downtown Ottawa for a few days while they just did all that. I was like, I just I don't want to see it. I just kind of want to show up to my new apartment when it opens and then everything. It wasn't like unpacked or anything, but I was like, I'll be there to let them in and move the stuff in and stuff like that. But I was there was a moment where I was like, I just I'm not ready for that, just see that final goodbye. And even when it came to having to move out those last things, like I just kept being like, Can you can you do it? And he's like, Yeah, I got it. Great, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Deep, gut-wrenching, uh, like wringing out everything on the inside feeling going through a divorce, even when you know it's the right thing. Like I was married to a really kind person, I didn't have a nasty divorce. Um, but we we just weren't meant to be married. I did the same as you did. I don't know if I was a CEO, but probably knowing my personality, I just was like, well, this is what people do. And I happen to be dating a really lovely human who I did really love uh for for the first while, like many years until I fall fell out of love and didn't recognize it. Because it was it was a nice friendship, you know? Yeah, and so even when you're the driver of the realization like we shouldn't have gotten married, actually, it is so heartbreaking. And I think that surprised people. Like, I remember my dad one time. Um, he was like, Oh gosh, like I really miss who you used to be. Because I think maybe it was six months into our separation, and I think they were like confused, like, well, you're the one who wanted to separate. Why are you so sad? And I would visit home and be probably a bit of a shell of myself because they were used to, oh, I'm fine, everything's fine, Ivine's happy, look at her, no one worries about her. But I couldn't hide it at this point because I was so devastated and heartbroken. And and then the guilt of um, well, I I pushed for the separation, so now I've kind of upended this other person's life and and their future idea of what their life would be. It is a lot of feelings, right? That it's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I come back to that, that uh that shame and guilt loop, which I really had to stop myself because I'm just no, no, no, like don't do that. But I I come back to that. I think those are the parts that make me the most sad, is just thinking how it's affected him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And again, like it's like a responsibility for somebody else, even though they're also an adult. Like my mom would have to say to me, like, Nadine, he's also an adult and has all the tools that you do, like to recognize things. Like it's just you saw it and and you called it. But like he's also gonna be okay. He's a you know, like he's capable.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

You know, yeah, it's okay. But I still from time to time you're just like, whoosh, and I'm like, oh, and I'm back there again. I'm back in that space where all of his stuff is moved out. I'm by myself. I'm in a place that I just like don't really recognize anymore. And um, I'm also like scared because I'm like, I don't know who I am right now.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Totally. I was gonna say, did you recognize yourself? No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

But I but there was like a fear, but also an excitement because I'm like, I don't know who she's evolving into, but I'm really excited to see because she does not give as much fucks anymore about things and just really wants to support myself in a way that I don't think I ever I think I was always leaning in that direction, but then was fully not fully evolved yet. And I don't think we like fully evolve like all the way, you know. Well, like every your life's a journey and you change and you go through different, you know, identities sometimes. And I think for me in that one moment was like a bit of fear of the unknown, obviously. Don't know what's gonna happen next. I know that I have a new apartment, I know that I'm planning a trip to Europe by myself. I've started my own business. I'm um looking after myself in a really good way. Um, I avoided alcohol a lot during that time too, just because I know like it just makes me extra emotional. So I was like, I don't wanna, I don't want to go down one of those roads. Yeah, so that sounds like a good like understanding and healthy relationship with it to go, like maybe not for me right now, but and then there was also a part of like really wanting to explore like my sexuality, you know, I do identify as queer, really leaning into that um and exploring those possibilities and had a lot of fun. I went on some like really met some really amazing like women, had some really great dates, you know, but like it was it was fun and it was exciting. And when I went to Europe, I went to all these like different like lesbian bars and I was like, oh, this is cool. This is my community, and I loved it. Like I was like, oh, I feel really at home here and it was really great. And um, but then also realizing that I don't have any game, I'm just like, oh yeah, that's right. I've been married to a man for like the last like you know Hey, what is game? Tell me more. I mean, I know what it is, but how do we get well like well? I am so extroverted. And so when I chat with people and I always say this, like, I'm just very relational. And sometimes people confuse that with me maybe flirting or being extra interested in having like this additional spark. But I was like, no, I think some people like myself just have spark, and like that's that's it. And I'm I'm not gonna go home with you at the end of this, but I'm certainly gonna really engage with you and enjoy the conversation, maybe more than someone else might not. But that's just because I'm deeply relational and I want to know more about you. Like it's been so hard for me sitting in this spot and not asking you questions because like it I want to chat, I want to like find out, I want to dig deeper and like let's tell me all the things, you know? And I love that. And I I feel like that's part of also some of the stuff which we'll talk about later with like matchy matchy, is like getting to meet such a myriad of different people and just like asking them things and that I don't know if most strangers would ask.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

So get it. That's podcasting. I'm like, this is so lovely. Like, I just get to sit across from people that I really want to sit across from. Yeah. Um, because it's mine. I'm not, I mean, lol, imagine I'm not uh working for CBC, but if they wanna, but like I get to be like, oh, I want to talk to this person, oh, I want to ask this person about this. And then I just get to sit and the same. I'm like, tell me more, tell me about Margie. And then I love when it's a surprise connection to something that I can relate to. Like I knew I'd relate to a lot of what you're speaking about from like someone else who went through a divorce and like um a caring human who wants the other person to be okay and how devastating that that all is, um, and all the parts and pieces of it, even though for me it was a long time ago, it still sits quite near the surface because it's a it's uh it made me who I am, actually. Um, anyway, I don't know where I was going with that. But yeah, it's lovely. Okay, I need to go back to um. Did you have a moment that you were like, fuck, I married the wrong person?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I so I I have a hard time with that because I don't know if I was ever meant to be married. So it wasn't about marrying the wrong person. I just don't think I was ever supposed to be in that situation. Like I mean, I I don't know how to say it because I don't want to again, I really don't want to come across as like I regret it. I appreciate the experience and everything that it taught me. Um but there was definitely a moment where I'm also just really trying to tread lightly on this just because I don't want to in any way like misrepresent um him or what had happened. But uh so I had a big procedure done in August of 2020 and it was like an emergency, what they thought was a hysterectomy wasn't a hysterectomy. I had a like a benign like tumor sitting on my lower bowel. So they had this emergency surgery and stuff like that, and it really changed the composition of like my body, and um, I think that really changed the way in which I was physically where I would allow myself to be intimate and physical, right? And so that really changed things, and I I sort of I know for my own self there's like um a shell of protection, like obviously, like the most invad what feels like the most invasive parts of my body had just been like you know, chopped up by a surgeon and then put back together, and they're like, We did it! And I was like, This looks awful. Like, what have you done to me? You know, what have you done? Yeah, and so I didn't look awful. Tell me more. Like they were like, We're gonna go this way, and then we're gonna go that way, and then okay, yeah. And it was just like, oh man, this wasn't like this before. Like, what, you know? And so I actually just recently in the last um two years had like recorrective surgery to fix that. Um also I heal very funny with scars, and like there was a lot of scar tissue and just the way they healed. I just like I was like, eh, I don't like it. So I got that fixed, which is great. But awesome. Um, but there was just obviously this shell that kind of of like protection. I was taking on a job at a national indigenous youth organization. It was again during the pandemic, there's a lot of craziness that was happening at the time, and I just felt like I could never get my I was constantly here, like in the water and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

And like uh treading water, treading the water, the levels rising, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And I don't think a lot of people uh so I was the executive director or executive auntie, as I like to call myself, but I don't think anybody really fully understood like what was happening personally, and then what was happening in like my home life. And there's also a really interesting position that you sort of get put in when you're in leadership where you actually can't devolve too much about yourself, it seems. At least those were the teachings that I was given by my board at the time was just like, you know, you're kind of by yourself and leadership's really lonely. And I was like, oh yeah, man, is it ever? Um, I don't know if I fully agree with those teachings now, but there are certain things that I was learning. We're all learning and growing. Meanwhile, that kind of like goes into like the relationship, right? And I feel as though I suddenly started realizing that during this healing that I needed to do for myself, I don't think I was ready to be with someone while I was doing that and while I was growing, uh while I was figuring it out. So it was never about like, oh, I've married the wrong person. It was like, oh, I don't think I should have done that just yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

I think I still had a relationship with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah, I think I still had a lot of that, and I was figuring out my queerness. I was like, there was a ton of stuff that was going on, and in those moments, I was like, oh, I don't, I don't think I can do all of this. Um but we had also carved out that like there was such a special friendship within that relationship, but again, we both wanted a little bit more in terms of the rest of our lives, right? Like, so it was that's where that really plays a part. And I know like a lot of it was like the physical aspects, and I'll be honest with you, I think that's the first time I've said that out loud and not in like a therapy session. So thanks for sharing fresh scoop. No, no, it was alone as I'm talking about it. I was like, oh, I think I've only ever shared that with my therapist. Yeah, about that shell and that protection and that needing to want to um protect myself at all costs, and also like at the same time, like I think there's a bit there where I'm also trying to protect him.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Of course, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. Um, those conversations with him, and I asked this thinking of exactly the conversation that I had with my ex, and it gutted me. I still think of it as the saddest movie that I've ever watched, but I was in it.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah, the saddest day ever. I literally I go back to it all the time. Like, this is the saddest day ever.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, I I actually have even deeper love for him picturing us in that moment because it could have been like uh, you know, like this angry, eruptive, like what the actual and like not to say we didn't get angry, there definitely was anger uh there as well as sadness, but in that moment, we both literally just like I I think um when he realized when I was just like when I when I was brave enough to say the sentence, which is like I I don't I think I married the wrong person because that's how I felt. I felt like shit, like you're a good person, I'm a good person, two good people don't necessarily make a really great thing, and and we're we're we're making each other's lives harder, I think. Anyway, I probably didn't I definitely didn't say it so eloquently, but I tried to say it in a nice way, but I've been thinking of it for a long time. I mean, if you look back on pictures of me, I I've always been similar to this size. Um, I mean, I was bigger as a kid, but in my adult life, I shrunk to like a six. For me, that was like it was alarming. Like I remember going somewhere and someone was like, Are you okay? And I just didn't see it because I just was, I just kept, I don't know, probably trying to disappear because I was like, What? Like, you know. Anyway, so I'm sure he, I mean, he saw it. I think it was just too hard for him to like really see what was happening. And so by the time I finally said it out loud to this person, um, I mean, I can still see his face and it like makes me like so sad. But that uh, and he he left the house and I think he called his parents. And anyway, that evening we both lay in our bed and hugged each other and just both sobbed from like the deepest parts of ourselves. Cause I'm gonna get sad. Because it was like it was like, even though you really love this person, it's like you know you have to let them go, or you have and you also not only have to let that go, you have to let go all of the dreams and the plans that you had for the future. And like, look at me, even though it worked out, like I knew it. Like when I started dating David, I was like, oh, this is how it feels. Not to take away from when I first started dating my ex. I I really loved him, but there was a difference with this partnership. Um, and and still knowing that, like, gosh, you really made the right decision. This was supposed to happen this way, and you were this, you've ended up how you were supposed to end up, and life actually was really wonderful. It still is so sad to think of that moment, which is why I ask about that moment for you. But was there multiple of those moments for you?

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah, yeah. I'm actually like, I remember it was like it's it was sometime early spring, and I remember because again, as I was talking about, I was like, when the weather's nice, I was like, let's go for a walk. We went for funny enough, we went for a walk in the Glebe, and I remember just like we were walking and crying, yeah, like the two of us, just like trying to figure it out, and like I am so solutions focused. And I was like, I just don't have a sorry, I'm sorry to cry. I was like, I just don't have a solution for this. Yeah, there's no solution, there's no, I can't, and a big part of it too, like um, and and I this is really important. I'm funny that I've like been dancing around it, but a big part of why we also like chose to like go in this direction was there was I because I've been leading up with it, I guess. The pivot was like he never wanted to move in together, we moved in together. He never wanted to buy a place together, we bought a place together. He never wanted to get like get engaged, we got engaged. He never wanted to get married. Well, all that stuff, right? And so, like he and I'm not saying that I forced him into these things, like he is a grown man, like he chose to do all this stuff. I'm a lobbyist by trade, I'm sure there was a little bit of lobbying involved in this, and so like, but and I remember these conversations, like it with each single chapter of stuff. Like it was like when I didn't get what I wanted. When my nephews were born, there's this moment, like especially when my nephew, when my first nephew was born, there's a moment, and I remember it being like, oh no, I have never felt this kind of love for something like this this much ever. Oh, is this what is this what like a lot of women talk about, you know, and non-binary folks? Like, is this this is what that sudden need and want? Because I've never really had it before. I've never I've always kind of been on the fence about kids. I'm not sure if that's what I've wanted. This is really interesting. And then I was like, I was like, oh, I think, I think I might want to explore having children. And he was like, you know, from day one I've said no.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Like, I don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And that's where like the biggest part of these conversations came in, where it was like, okay, I can't, I can't force you to do I don't, I don't want to have for me. That's it was like, I don't want to have a kid with you, actually. Yeah, that's not something you can lobby for. Yeah, I can't lobby, I can't lobby this one. No, you don't lobby my way out of this one, right? And it was like, because that's not fair, but I don't know if I want a kid. Like I just don't know, but I can't be in this relationship where that's not a possibility to fully understand if that's something that I want. And that's part of it too. So like there's a moment I remember in our kitchen, and I remember him kind of doing it because he's such a good guy to go like, okay, okay, like we'll try, you know? And like, okay, great. But then always thinking in the back of my head, is like, did I just does he really want? And like I just know that he like just didn't. And I remember hearing from different people who also knew him being like, oh, he'll love it, he'll enjoy it. I was like, but what if he doesn't? Like, what if that's or what if I don't? You know, like that. So I didn't know if I really, and a lot of that was coming from people who had kids. So they were, I was like, I I don't know, you're also not totally selling it to me right now either. Like, no one's tired, and like, but I also understand there's um even seeing it this past weekend, like I was surrounded by you know, five and like four-year-olds at like a Super Mario themed birthday party, and like they're screaming and yelling, but like even the parents they look so tired, but then there's moments and these kids are so sweet, and you could just see the parents being like, Oh, I just love that they're having fun. This is so nice to watch this like joy, and you're like, Oh, I get it. Oh, I I can see that for you, but for you, for you, yeah. I totally get that for you. Um, no, and again, like it's still one of those parts where it's like, I don't know where the world's gonna take me. I just know that if I was with this one partner, that that would be so unfair to them. Like I would be taking away a choice for them, in as much as they would be taking a choice away from me, and we both love each other so much to know that we don't want to do that to each other. So that's and I even remember at one point being like, Well, what if I just have the baby and like we're still together? And he's like, That's not how that's not how this works. Like, how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Like, I just know I get like throwing all the ideas out there. Like, I think the day or the next day after I told him that we shouldn't have gotten married, or I we we weren't meant to be the next day. I was like, Okay, but um, we could be friends, and there was a show on called The New Adventures of Old Christine. It was a Julia Louis Draichel show where yeah, so it was like she was married to this guy, her name is Christine in the show, and he they got divorced and he married another Christine. And I was like, We could be friends, like the New Adventures of Old Christine. And he was like, I remember he was sitting on the couch, and I think I was like in a chair across from him, and he was like, Too soon, like and I I think it came across as cold because I've been dealing with this internally.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I'm only laughing because it's very relatable.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Oh, yeah, because I was like, I had already processed like that that this was happening, and I and he was mad at me for that. Like he was like, You should have brought me into this a long time ago. And I don't know what the right or the wrong is. I just wasn't ready because I didn't know myself. I was like, what's happening? Like I I I felt like I was a stranger. I was in a relationship with me and I had no clue who I was. So I went to like a couple of really best friends and told them. And and then I told my sister, and then I told my mom and my dad before I told him. Uh, but that's the only way I could figure it out. And I also was in therapy the whole time. Um, but I mean, uh, you know, like looking back at it, I'm like, he could see the decline of Nadine, you know, it was uh it was very apparent. Um, but so I I appreciate where he was coming from. Um, like I had just let him into this really terrifying room with me where I had been living for a long time and like slowly losing myself uh and and everything that I knew. And but the the idea that I could hold on to a piece of him was so like I just wanted that so bad because I'm like, I like hanging out with you. You're a good person. And I remember I was like, you'll get married, like you'll find someone will love you. Like, and he was and he would say the same to me. He's like, Someone's gonna love you so much. Like it was just it was very sweet. And then on the flip side, um, I mean, at one point I think I called him a cunt. There's like real big anger. Um, and then there was like real deep sadness, you know. There's there's room for all of it, but I did really want to. He he was like, I can't, it's too hard for me to to keep that friendship going. And then he he moved from Ottawa, so we lost touch. But I I get the desire for it because I also was like, we don't have to lose this, yeah. But I but you know what?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I couldn't lobby for that because that was his decision to and I'll say this on our end, I don't think there was really any lobbying having to be done about like let's maintain this as a friendship, because we both knew they're like, let's do this before we really start resenting each other and before it gets uh dark. And that's why I was like, we need to go to therapy to maintain like this friendship. Like, yeah, lots of tears on that couch, lots of like just moments of just like tenderness and like resistance, and like also, but it's just from the very get-go, like I remember our therapist just would constantly say, like, it's so clear that there's such an abundance of love and respect for you, like, and she like it's so refreshing to have like you guys come in compared to like most like things because it was how do we do this in a really good way, you know. Like, like that's without a question. Like, um, I think one of the coolest parts was I threw a Christmas party, um, past Christmas, obviously, and um my now partner was there, my mom was there, the boys were there, and my ex was there. And it just like, and so all my friends saw that and they were like, whoa, like this is oh, this is really happening. Like, you're we're really doing this. I'm like, yeah, we're really doing that. Don't get me wrong, sometimes my sense of humor can be really bad. But like I remember at one point, my partner got a glass of uh Mike brought wine, a really nice wine, which is also interesting too. He never drank wine while we were together. He now into like a really great deep body of course red wines.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

And I'm like, he's the game, he's on the market. He's like, I gotta get into this, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

I was trying to get you to drink wine for like nine, ten years, and they just, anyways, no, and so he brought a really lovely bottle of red wine, and so my my partner goes to like open it and hands on the drink. And my first reaction was like, Oh, don't drink that, Mike, it's poisoned. And like, you know, and they were just like, So good, or like they'll be talking, like, why are you both obsessed with me? And like just being snatched an ass, where they both are like, You gotta stop doing that. But one of my favorite moments, I've never talked to both of them about this. It's funny. I'm fine to keep this in the podcast. So I sell my bead work, and on Saturdays, I, you know. Both both part, not partners, I should, both people people that are very important in my life, um, know in separate occasions that on Saturdays I like to have a flat white on Saturdays. I call it my flatty saddie. And I am at my vending, and um Mike shows up and he shows up with a flat white. Two minutes later, Matt shows up with a flat white, and I just like obsessed with you. Come room, am I in right now? This is so great. This is so great. Just like, thanks. And like they both brought a treat, a sweet treat for me. And I was like, this is the best. You're deeply loved, right? And like I was like, this is so nice. This is so, so nice and so sweet to have these people, but it's it's that reciprocity though, right? Like that to me is what's so important. It's like, you know, I'm joking about you know how much they like love me and they're obsessed with me, but like it's the same. I love and I'm obsessed about them and making sure that they're okay. And like I just I cannot not care about the people in my life and making sure that they're comfortable and like they're still so part of it. Like, I went on vacation with my brother's ex like ex-wife, and my parents were there, right? Like, and it's the first time they've seen each other is since the divorce. Like, it's just it was it's beautiful without a question.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

It was like, no, why can't we have that? Like, we can't like I remember saying while I was separated and and going through we did the whole like you legally separate and then you think you have to wait a year, and then the government's like, Oh, you've really made up your mind now. Like, I can't even get that, like, I can't. It makes me so mad. All that to say, I was in that moment, and I remember saying to one of my uh good friends at home in Newfoundland, I'm like, you know, I think he'd be great for your friend. And she was like, most people during a separation, because I was still like very sad, like I was still going through all the morning of it and learning who I was and all the things. Like, I wasn't out there living my life and not thinking about this. This, this, this took me out for a good year, if not more. Um, but I wanted him to be happy, and I and I thought this would have been a great match, actually. And she was like, I I can't relate to what's happening with you right now. And I'm like, why can't I get on board with like I'm not just this isn't me trying? I mean, maybe a bit of it was still trying to take care of him. Yeah, probably. But I I generally was like, I think they'd be a great match. Like, why do why does it have to be? As long as, like you just said, like, um, there there was no um, you know, I I've had breakups of friendships that have been um, I don't want anything to do with them because they've harmed me deeply. But like this person didn't harm me. And you know, and I and I tried my best not to harm him. And so I I just didn't understand why it had to be like like I remember it also being like, I don't need to get divorced from this person. And my brother was like, say what like you do, like what if something happened? And lee and and also he didn't want to continue the friendship, so I so we did have a divorce because if yeah, something happened, but I just I was like living where you are, but I was living there by myself, like it wasn't a reciprocal, and I couldn't lobby for that. Um, I just why why does it have to be as long as there's no harm and it and it wasn't an abusive relationship, why does it have to be so polarizing us versus them?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

I think it's that it's just like defense mechanism. I think we're like and told at a really young age that um when you're harmed, like you put up that protection in that shell, right? And I think it's it's almost easier to I actually I do think it is. I think it can be a lot easier to resent someone and to make them the problem, not the problem, but like they're the reason why this is like this, and create them as like us for me versus them, than it is to do your own self-work to go, where am I accountable in this? And also, like, how do we find like we're just humans, you know, we're just we're just a bunch of people farting around, like that's it. Love and love, right? Like this, you know, like that's that's really it. It's like at the end of the day. Um, I I think it's just also growing up in an environment where the concept of community is so valued, and what does that look like? And like community isn't defined by one person, it's defined by everybody, and like the collective unit. Um, I think that was like really helpful too for me, just going in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Um everyone was behind it, like all your friends, all your family, they're like, Yes, we get it.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

You're both still Well, no, not not like I don't think I don't think a lot of people actually got it. They didn't quite understand it. It was a very scratching, like, I don't fully understand. I remember when I told my parents that we were doing this, because originally we positioned as like we're moving, we're moving away from each other. Um, and then my my dad's first concern was about the house and how much on our our investment. And then my mom's concern was about him. Was he gonna be okay? And I was like, hi person with feelings. What the fuck? Like you guys. So then I had to work through that with my parents, be like, we need to talk about this. And that took a while too, because I was also dealing with like the grief of this relationship, and then on top of that, I'm just like, what such such interesting choices to have made during that moment. But I I had a lot of friends that just didn't quite understand it. And I think the pivotal moment is when they're at that Christmas party and they can see how loving and caring Mike and I are and respectful with each other and just like truly I was like, Oh, my best friend's here. This is great. The part party started, like Mike's here, you know. And I still have we still have friends, like mutual friends, that'll still be like, Oh, I I hung out with Mike recently. I hope that's okay. I'm like, yeah, it's yeah, me too. Like, what? Yeah, like we just had dinner together the other night. Like, you know, like I'm just like, what? But it's this old way of thinking about relationships where I think a more decolonial approach is just really seeing that person's heart and soul and just being like, I still want to be part of that. And I think that's really, really valuable. And um, yeah, like I just I don't, I don't know, maybe down the road I'll figure it out and be like, oh, maybe it is a trauma response while I keep, but like no one, I don't know. I feel like just for me, it's easier to forgive people and it's easier easier to look at the light and the joy than it is to like really focus on like those really hard parts. And I I too have had to like say goodbye to some friendships and stuff like that in the past, and like I and I think that those are my recurring nightmares that I have is with with those people, you know, which is interesting because I'm just like, oh, I wish more. Yeah, I just wish that I could amend those relationships. Like those are those are the ones that come up, and so it's not it's very out of scope for me to not have good relations with people.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Yeah. So the people that you don't, like the people that you actually had have to separate from or have had to separate from, those are the ones that almost they haunt you.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Yeah, oh yeah, all the time. And then I have that urge to like, I should just call them. No, I can't. I'm just like, I can't. It's one of those, it's also one of those pieces where I you alluded it to, or you did say it, just there are certain friendships and relationships that just a friend of mine said this to me recently is like it's when they know all the nuclear codes and they pressed all the codes, and you're like, I don't know if we can come back from that. You know all the codes, you pressed all the press all the buttons, those were the one codes you weren't supposed to, you know, press, and then you did. And uh it's just like, how do we come? How do we come back from that?

SPEAKER_01 52:14

What a way to say it.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, yeah, just like, oh no, like those were like you just you don't press the codes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

You press the codes, and it's devastating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Oh, oh, you don't, it's not reciprocal. You don't see me the way I see you, or you don't see this relationship the way I see the relationship. Okay, yeah, I need to Okay, I see it. That's okay. You're gonna go do you, I'm gonna go do me. That's fine. I have nothing but love and respect for you, and I wish you well, and that's it. You just gotta wish them well.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Someone um recently pressed a code, I suppose, and I called my brother and I was like, Can you believe this? And he was like, uh, he was like, I mean, this this, you know, like it's been it's been more evident how this person's been showing up. And he said, It's information for you to take to decide what you want to do with this relationship. And I was like, God, that's such a cold way to see it, but also a very helpful way to see it. And it's something I've said back to people many times because I found it, it almost took away the you know that sunk cost fallacy. It's like I I've known this person for my entire life, my entire life, pretty much since I've been like 14. And I'm like, right, I think of all of the not sunk cost, because it was a beautiful friendship as long as it played out, but like all of that history and all of that love and all of the silliness of being little kids together and teenagers together and growing up into your 20s together, and then to not have that person. But it's like instead of getting lost in the like, I'm gonna hang on to something while this person keeps hitting those nuclear buttons, yeah. Um, and I'm gonna hold on to it because of what it was, it's like let that go and give yourself room and space to let somebody else in that actually is going to um, I don't know, uh love you like you love them, I suppose is the best way to say it. Um, but it is, I think we stay in things so long sometimes because of that. Like if I think of my ex um husband, it it was a part of like, oh God, but like, and I was only in my early 30s. I think I was uh I was 33 when uh we were divorcing. Um, and I remember being like, but uh like I've known him for seven years. He knows like he has this part of me, and like we've done this and we've got married. It's like this, you you have to hang in there because of what you did. And my mom said to me, She was like, Look, I know it's only been a year, and that's something you're gonna be in therapy about to figure out why you married him when you know a year later you're like, I shouldn't have married you. But she was like, You're still young. And like you, this could be, I don't care if you're 68, and if you want to leave, leave, right? Because you still have life left. Um, but she was like, on one hand, yes, I'm sure it's gonna mess you up why you got married for a year, but on the other hand, what a gift you've given yourself to have realized this in a year. You could be here for the next 10, 15, 20. And then she said, That's what would be really sad. Like, that's what would make me sad for you. She was like, I'm not, I'm sad for you, but I'm not that sad for you. You're gonna be okay, and he's gonna be okay. So it's like trying to take away, like, I'm gonna stay because of what it was, and be like, Well, what could life be if you let this go?

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

I remember um mom said to me when I told her we were driving to Montreal, and um I'd I it was a ruse. I was planning to tell her that I married the wrong person, but I'd have I definitely needed a good 18 years of therapy because this was when I was like 31 and now I'm 48. But back then, this is who I was, and uh, under a ruse of like taking mom to Montreal for her birthday, uh, I was like, this is what I'm gonna tell her. And so we're driving there, and I start to tell her in the car, and blah, blah, blah. So we're walking into our hotel, and we're both like, we'd been crying for a long time. And she was like, We're getting to the elevator. I see exactly where we were, and she said, What are you most afraid of? And I said, I'm afraid that I'm gonna spend the rest of my life alone, but feel lonely. And she said, It's she said, I I think that's that's what I would have been afraid of as well. And my mom and dad had a they loved each other dearly and and still do. My dad died, but like they were each other's person, so she didn't know what this felt like. But she said, I think that's what I would be afraid of as well. But she said, It's way lonier to be in a relationship with someone you don't want to be in a relationship with. And I'm like, fair. Then we got in the elevator and just continued to cry. And then she said, We gotta get drunk. And then we went to a restaurant and I ordered two double gin and tonics for me and her. Oh my god. She took a sip and was like, right, I don't really like drinking, and I drank both of those doubles. And I was the only one hung over the next day, Lorraine, well played. Um, so who was like your go-to for those like dark nights of the soul moments? Was it Mike?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

But um, like when everything was going down. Yeah, used my my best friend uh Lisa. Yeah, and uh Lisa and I have been best friends since grade seven. Um yeah, and I just yeah, 100%. Uh as well as like Carly, my brother's ex-wife. It's your girlfriends, you know? It's like it really is your girlfriends that get you through it. Um, my therapist, obviously. But uh yeah, like those were my people, like just going to them, I think, as well as uh Mary as well. Mare. Yeah, like just yeah, like that was a big part of it. Um, where those I would say those those folks were definitely, yeah, that was a big one.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

That first night in the bed by yourself.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

How were you? Uh not good. I I definitely I remember um I had drank a lot of wine that night. So that's when I remember and being like, oh no, I'm gonna feel this tomorrow. Um, and I I think that was also when I was like, oh, I shouldn't do this moving forward. Like I knew that like going to bed, I was like, oh, I'm I'm gonna feel it more the next day. And the next day I did. Like I just was like, I couldn't really get out of the bed. I just like just felt like absolute garbage. I'm pretty sure I like Uber Eats like McDonald's all day, like and like barely ate any of it. Um, I had the dog with me, which was great. So that was like really helpful. And uh, she's a cocker spaniel, so I used her ears as like Kleenex a lot of the time. Um, and dogs are so good like that. They're such good, like they have such good energy when it comes to like being sad or sick, like they just know. Um, yeah, it was just really hard. Like I just remember being like, oh, I don't like this feeling. It's not when is it going to end? Like when does this when does this stop? And then also having the foresight and potentially the in my toolbox or um my tool bag, whatever you want to call it, to go, oh, I just have to, I the only way out of this is through. And I just have to sit in this misery, and there's something about it that I just go, what a blessing it is to feel miserable. Like just like just to go, like, I know that sounds like very toxiconic.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

No, that's nice. No, it's not, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

What a blessing to feel these things and to expere to have experienced love like this. Um and then I would go back to just feeling super depressed and sad and being like, why did I do that? And I was like, I'm just gonna go have a Lorazopam. Um just gonna ignore that, but also knowing like I can't do that either. Yeah, like you have to go through it and you have to feel these things. Um because it's just gonna make you stronger. It's just going to you're gonna get through it. And like I would there are I remember there are days where I would just like count it down to go like, oh, okay, I get to go to sleep, sleep in about four hours. Yeah, I only have to make it through four more hours. I said, uh, that's all I got. I can get through it, I can get through it, and threw myself into work, like threw myself into it and just like booked trip after trip after trip. Like I remember I was, I think I only in like there's I can't remember the exact period of layover. Um, yeah, the layover between him leaving and me having like ownership of the house. It wasn't very long. I think I was in that house for maybe like four or five days, and I was like, Oh, I have a new contract. Oh, my client needs to see me, gotta go. And but did they know? I just wanted to get out of there and needed an excuse to, so I didn't was like running, running a bit for my problems, and then realized that I needed to not do that. And I think the big one was when I was in my own apartment by myself, and I was like, Okay, all right, this is it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

So, when the desire is there to go work and travel and uh busy yourself, so you don't just sit in that awfulness because it's so flipping hard to sit in that awfulness. When when did you not stop running from it? Um because there's a place where you reach where it's a balance of day-to-day stuff and like getting back to yourself and like learning new what what you like now, learning who you are and and therapy and sitting in it. Yeah. When did you stop running, I suppose, to stop long enough to try and find a balance? How did you come to that even realization that you were running?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

It took like seven, seven to eight months, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Yeah. To really just like allow for the wave to sort of crash down a bit. Um, I remember I was like sitting outside, I had just gone for a really long walk. And yeah, there was just this moment, this sudden thing being like, I think I'm gonna be okay. I think I'm gonna be okay. And it just, it just kind of happened. Like, and because part of it was um my dog Annie, we we would do like the co-parenting thing, and there was a good while there where I could not let the dog go. Like, I was like, no, no, no, I I need someone in this space with me. I need someone in this, and I still have those moments. Um, but I also read a study that like you sleep better with your dog in your bed. It's like, oh, that's great. This is this is helping me, anyways. But she um there was a few weeks there where I had a really difficult time with having to like let her go because I didn't want to be by myself in my new apartment. And then I just it just suddenly it just like time, it just passes. And that's when I decided I was like, oh, I I think I'm ready to just see what's out there and maybe just do a little dating. And I did, and you know, I went on lots of dates again, lots of women and non-binary people, and loved it. It was fun. Um, and then one day I had decided that I was just like, well, first I'll I will say the art of language or the art, sorry, the art of communication is lost on a generation. And I was like, oh, as someone who's extroverted like I am, this is killing me. Like it was just like, wow, people do not know how to have conversations. Yeah, like, and I was like, oh no, what have I gotten myself into? Like, I just just online, like, just I'm like, wow, it it's like tennis. I'll ask you a question. You can literally just take the same question, package it, and then send it right back to me. Like, it's not live, let me lead, let me lead this for you. And like people just wouldn't, or I'd go on dates and I'd like, I get it, people are nervous and stuff. And again, I know that I have a spark and an energy, and like that's okay. And for me, I was like, maybe it's just not the right fit. Like, if you if you can't handle my spark, then like this just isn't gonna work. Cause like, trust me, babe, I'm gonna keep shining. Like, I'm just I can move mountains.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Like, I you know, like and I and I will, and so yeah, and someone needs to find like someone needs to want to embrace that energy and not even match it, but like be able to uh um find a rhythm in it and around it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Yeah, and like just like the back and forth and this can I find more titillating and sexy and exciting when someone could just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I I love that. And um, I decided just one day, I was like, well, what's happening on the other side again? Like, I know I wasn't gonna go down this road. I'm just gonna see. And within the first moment of like switching the app, um I messaged someone. They just seem kind of like my kind of weird, but also like switching the app, what do you mean? Like you could switch from like the genders that you're interested in. Oh, okay, okay. Oh, I'm gonna see what's going on with the men, you know, like went down that road, but like I'm just gonna see. And then I start talking with this one person, and it's just like it's back and forth. And I was like, oh, like what is happening here? I'm like, play it cool, play it cool. And I'm still like dating like a lot of other people at this time. So I'm just like, eh, just add them to the roster. Like, I'm not, I'm not looking for a relationship. Uh, it is about to be the summer. I have my new place downtown. I just want to go on date. I just want to be wind and dined when I'm around. I'm never around because I'm constantly working. And again, series after bad date after bad date after bad date. And then finally I end up going on a date with this one person. And I like again, the bar is so I hate saying this, but like we joke about it now. I'm like, the bar was so low. Like the night before I went on a date with someone and they went to the bathroom and they didn't come back for 45 minutes. And then like it was just so bad. Yeah. And it was like Wait, did you wait the 45 minutes then? Because I'm a good person and I was worried. And I was like, they're like, oh, I've got to go to the bathroom and then I gotta run to the bank. And where we were downtown, I was like, there are three banks within a stone's throw of each other. I don't, and then they came back and I was like, I'm gonna go. Because I just wanted the satisfaction of just being like, I have to go now. Like, this is this is unacceptable behavior. Did they think it was acceptable? I don't know. Maybe it was explosive diarrhea. I have no idea. Like it was just like maybe that's what it was. Who can just say something like they didn't respond to their text? And I was like, what is going on here? And so, which was so interesting. What a power move.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

They get back and you're there, you're like, I'm a good person.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Yeah. Lose my response. And like I was fine. I was sitting at the bar and talking with the bartender. We're all kind of turning it into like a big like, what happened here? I was like, man, I don't even know. Like, I'm on a supposed to be on a date with this person. Like, she just took off and I am by myself. She comes back. She's like, hey, sorry about that. And I was like, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

No explanation.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Yeah, no, no, no real explanation.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Do you think she'll come on the podcast next week?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Like, it was explosive diarrhea. No, I just like, and if it wasn't, trust me, I'm a girl with GI problems. If it was, tell me about it. Like judgment, put like answer. You have time. I've got ammonium. I've got Pepto. What do you need, babe? Like, I've got you. Trust me. Let's go get some fennel and peppermint tea. Like, I got you. Don't worry. No. So left, went home, and I was like, oh yeah, that's right. I've got like I had a date like every single night that weekend. And I was like, that's right. I have a day date with this guy, Matt. And I was like, all right, fine, let's do it. So I show up and we're like, let's just go for a walk. And I walk in the door and I just was like, oh, he's like, he's like really charming and handsome in person. We went for a walk, and the walk was just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like it was just nonstop for like two and a half hours. We kind of got lost. We ended it. I told him a story about um my surgery, and he did this thing. And I always think it was like such a power move where he like reached for my hand. He's like, I'm so sorry that happened to you. And it was like very genuine. And it was like, oh no, I can see your heart right now. Like I was like, oh, you're a really good person. Like this isn't, this isn't a move. This is actually who you are. Like you genuinely care about me and about people around you. And I was like, wow, like that's that's just something I haven't experienced in a while, like with a like a random person. And like I was just like, wow, I really see this. It's also like super funny. Um, and then as much as I like was like, I don't want to be in a relationship, I don't want to be in a relationship, and I was like, you know, I just I kept saying, I was just like, I just can't be tamed. That's it. And I just over time like just fell like really deeply in love with this person. And um, I wasn't expecting it. I really wasn't, like, it truly just caught me completely off guard. Um, and then we designed an app together. Then now we have Machie together. Matchie Machie.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Matchie Machie came from this relationship. It did, yeah. Can you tell me more?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:01

So he really, I always say, like, he's the brains and I am the beauty, but it truly like I'm the brains too. Again, we're all going through this like particular cycle in our lives, about in our 40s, divorce, separation, new city, new friends, kids are out of out of the house, you whatever it is you name it. And suddenly you're you're in a city that is very can be a big bubble for a lot of folks, and you're trying to make new friends. And so for him, he had been going to this other um, another group, another app that also does go for dinners with random strangers. That's what it is. But there's no rhyme or your only matching point for it is um your price point. So I've had actually a lot of girlfriends that have gone to these things, and they're just like, man, that was like the a waste of two and a half hours of my time. I was sitting with like the weirdest people, and not weird in the fun way, just weird in like, why are we at the same table together? Like this is just yeah. And so he had felt the same thing, and he and another person had created a WhatsApp group called the Leftovers, and from like a from a a matching from matching from this app, right? And they would have dinners together, they'd go to events together, and I I met them all and I was like, Oh, this is so much fun, and it kind of had a life of its own. And I was like, wow, I really love this same thing. People just looking to connect with other people in the city, and I've been very fortunate. I've had the same group of friends for a number, I mean, I'm Ottawa native, like I've been here forever, so I've got the same group of friends. Um, but I also going through this transitional period was like, I kind of also want to see like who else is out there in like this space, like Ottawa is so big. And so he started working on something about for him, it came from our original communication. Because he was just like, it was so nice to have someone that you just had this like this witty repertoire and like back and forth, you know, and how amazing that was. He's like, How could we create that for other people? And and that's sort of where I come in and being the more like, I mean, he's very sociable, but like being more attuned to relations and things like that, to go, I mean, that's not always gonna happen. And I remember talking about it with one of my friends and saying, you know, I hated it when I was on the apps, and like you'd send someone a message and they just went back to you for a few days. And she was like, Oh my god, I love that. She's like, I need that in my life. And I was like, Oh, that's so interesting. I was like, Oh, different communication styles, of course. Yeah, of course. You know, so taking in account of that, and then just over time, he just kept working away on it. And it was just this idea, and we always talked about different concepts and what it would look like in Ottawa, and how you could do this in real time, and how do we partner with restaurants to make sure that you know the app is designed so that you're going to a new local Ottawa gem because that's what Ottawa is all about, is that we have these amazing places and all this stuff. And then uh there's this moment in March, and I'm watching Love is Blind, and he's in the background. And I'm just like, oh my god, I love the show. And he's like, Guess what? I'm like, what? He's like, the app just got approved on the Apple store. I was like, that's amazing. What does that mean? I don't understand that. And he explained to me, he's like, it's it's a real thing now. And I was like, wow, okay. So we sent it to a bunch of friends, and everyone tore it apart, as they do. They're like, I don't understand and explain it and stuff. And it's so funny because he's very much of like the tech behind it and like the big picture and how the sausage is made. And I'm more of like the relation, again, relational, like how people understand it and stuff like that. So he would get really frustrated when someone would ask a question about it. Was like, let me deal with the people. Yeah, I got this. You've been stuck on this for like nine months in your head. Not everyone's gonna understand the evolution of it. So, what the app was in March is totally different from how it is now. And basically, what it does is we use a very like sophisticated and like intentional algorithm that matches people up based on their interests and like their music profiles and like the type of personalities that they have. This is just the beginning stage of it. And then you get put together in small groups and you go for dinner and drinks at 7 p.m. on Thursday at a local Ottawa restaurant and we don't do chains. And the idea is that you go, you can decide afterwards is it a match? Is it not a match? Is it new friends? Maybe it's something more. And if you if you both decide you want to be new friends, then you can start messaging each other in the app. And so we've had people that have gone so far as be like, I'm just gonna give you my number, like let's just chat outside, getting together and meeting up, which is really great. And so, but part of it was um what I really wanted to focus on was the experience of Ottawa and just getting across this question, like, how do you meet new people in Ottawa? And hearing from so many different folks about the different ways that they do it, um, from you know, turning to someone at a bar and chatting with them, uh, joining a run club, or even just walking into a shop and talking with people. You know, some of my favorite ones were I think there was one about um like Pokemon and like play. I probably Pokemon, like saying, probably saying that totally Pokemon, Pokemon, let's make sure I say that right. And um, like doing like, and I just like I love this. There's so many of these subcultures, ways to connect. And I think that we just in Ottawa can become so siloed and in our own bubbles that we forgot that there are other, there are so many other freaks out there like ourselves that we're just wanting to connect with. I have met people who are on like some of the like kinkiest dating sites, and I was like, good for you, like that's amazing! Like, wow, and like like they're just all these individual weirdos that are meeting each other, and I'm like, I love it because I'm a big weirdo too, and that's what I love about like this whole experience has been being able to meet different walks of life and different people who are also just looking for connection in this big, beautiful city of ours, um, and having a hard time doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Yeah, yeah, it's hard to meet people, not just like a partner, but it's hard to meet friends as an adult for sure, especially when you move somewhere in Ottawa is pretty transient, right? Like people move in and out and in and out, and uh the federal government is such a big uh cocoon community. And if you're outside of it, which I always have been, when I first moved here and I'd meet someone, they were talking always in these um, you know, like uh yeah, acronyms always. And and I'm just like, what? What's PCO? What's this? What's yeah, always um okay. So you met someone not looking to meet someone. I love the series of dates, and yeah, can we write a one-day podcast just about dates? Because I need to hear more of these stories. Um, and then you end up meeting someone that now you've launched an app together. Yeah, it just goes to show. Let me just say this. Um, this isn't like uh, oh, this is uh Hillary 2.0 and she's better and she's making better connections. This is just waiting for you when you're ready to let something go. Yeah, you know, it's like you could still be in uh that old home that you were living in with this person that you still just love, yeah, and living like dimmed down, like your light, your energy dimmed because you're I mean, it's it's a lot of energy out to stay in the wrong place. Yeah. And if you just go through it and do some really difficult work and also therapy to figure out what you brought to the table there, you know, like clean up your side of the street. It's always what I'm always saying. Yeah, and I'm still cleaning, like I'm always gonna be cleaning. I'm always cleaning. Always, yeah, always constantly, but like, but but do the work for yourself. I know it's really hard. The point isn't to not feel uncomfortable, the point is to live feeling uncomfortable until you no longer feel uncomfortable, and then that's just always a reminder, right? Like, you're not, I'm not gonna forget how that felt because that was earth-shattering sadness, and I hated that whole year, and also look back on it with this like so much compassion for myself, and like so I'm so grateful I went through it. Um, and I'll never forget it, which helps me not do it again, which helped me be a better communicator with David. Um, because I think about your story to my story, and I'd I mean, there's many different differences, of course, but something that stuck out as you were saying it, I'm like, oh, I think she brought him into the uh into your mind a little sooner, right? Like you opened the door on what was really happening for you sooner than I did. So when I opened the door, it definitely was more earth-shattering. And I understand that now because I wasn't great at understanding how I was feeling. I mean, I I was really good at lying to myself, so but so I was obviously really good at lying to this other person. Um, whereas you, I think, and I could be saying this wrong, were like some things I'm not feeling. Uh, you had your surgery, you're like, uh something's different, I'm shifting. What who am I? What am I? What is this relationship with myself? And then you let Mike into that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

unknown 1:19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:48

And look where you are now. And like hopefully he's doing really well as well. And yeah. Okay, when you were like, I'm dating, how did you take it?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Not good. That was hard. That to me is one of the hardest ones that we've had.

unknown 1:20:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Yeah. So it's not like easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:05

Even when you're consciously on couple, it's not that it's easier. Maybe it's even harder because you know, there's one thing to be like, Well, I'll never see you again. You're trying to bring him along as you evolve.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

Yeah, that was really hard. I I would say like that's one of the second saddest days, too. Yeah. Just because I could see we both knew at one point it was gonna happen. It was just a matter of when. And I think like at that point, it was just like, oh, oh yeah. Oh, okay. This is how it's happening, it's happening, you know. And so um, yeah, that was that was a really hard day. And we did like again, we I um remember I told him on the couch, and then like my couch, and then I think like a week later we had a um therapy together, and that was a big session to like yeah, like let's okay, we gotta talk about it, and yeah, and like those following that, those following sessions were also like really hard and stuff. Just because it was for me, again, it I I hurt someone that I love and care about so deeply, and I know that I had done that, and I didn't mean to, like that, like I was like, oh, I wasn't expecting this either, like that this is gonna turn into something the way that it did. And um, but it did, and I and I'm you know, I'm it did, yeah, and that's it. And now they're best friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:37

No, they're not who love flat lights. Um what is your one piece of advice for someone that's going through it?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Like going through separation and all that? Oh man. Um top of that, um, but not that that was an issue with us, but I would just say, like, really learn to forgive yourself. Like, I I think that's I guilt and shame, no matter what. I think everyone that I've ever talked to who's gone through divorce separation carries some amount of guilt and shame from that actual like departure of the relationship and just realizing that like A, you're not alone, you're not the only ones probably feeling that way, and B, just to like forgive yourself through it because it's I I feel like those are the when I pinpoint the hardest moments for me individually, it's that guilt and that shame that I felt. And it just it's just a useless, it's a useless emotion. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's just it's it's counterproductive, it doesn't do anything, it just makes you feel really bad. And I don't, I don't think you can. I I think you could live a life without shame, you know, like you really could. You could still learn so much about yourself and um you could still feel bad about things and like you know, take accountability, but I just I feel like that's such a such an understand uh a misunderst maybe not a misunderstanding because I know some people really deeply believe in monogamy and those types of relationships, and I just really under feel more akin to like a fluidity of in relationships. Um but that departure when the relationship changed is not a marker of you having failed and to some standard that was created before your time.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:43

That is like it was created way before, and um and the fact that it was created, you know, it's not a natural way of being, it was put in place for legal reasons, for financial reasons, for property reasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:58

Yeah, yeah. So, like I I don't know, and also just like and enjoy enjoy the moments, just be grateful, just be grateful you're sad, but like truly, like it's just be grateful that the other side is coming. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

Last question, yeah. What would you say to someone who's just engaged and they're getting it married? I am so excited for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

No, truly, though, like again, I get it. We're yeah for different folks. Like, that's I have friends, my my parents are still married. I have friends that like I see their relationship with their spouses like, yeah, y'all are gonna make it. Like, no, like that's that's great, that's awesome. You know, if you feel like really that you have found like this is what you want, then that's what you want. But take a second before and really listen to your gut. Because I had so many of those gut moments leading up to it. That I was like, no, no, no, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm just gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:00

Also, even if you're totally in love and it's the best thing ever and you're gonna make it, have your own money. Have your own money. Have your own money, yeah, have your own money.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:09

Damn, yeah. There's anything we can learn from the Bravo verse and the real housewives, it is have your own money. Your own money.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

Um, I could talk to you forever. Thank you for all of your time. There's so many questions. I'm like, we needed a whole episode on matchy matchy, we need a whole episode on dating, we need a whole episode on the loss of conversation in another generation because right. Um, also, I don't know why I feel a need to say this, but I do. Generational friendships, what a gift. What a gift because I think like I learned so much from friends that I have in their 60s and their 70s. Like I love my like I love a brunch or a dinner with my mom's friends. Yeah, I I just love them. And also I love knowing 20-year-olds and like having a dinner with them, being like, tell me what you know, and I also think a generational friendship um helps to like um um fill those gaps in some of the stuff that the the art of conversation or the art of whatever and stuff that I'm missing, right? Because I of the time I was born in and and how I grew up. But yeah, I think um, which is also really cool for matchy matchy. I'm sure it like is yeah, you you get matched up with people of all different ages and um yeah, different walks of life, and you're not lost in your own silo, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:33

Yeah, and like I I love that because like two of my dearest friends is like this they call themselves vintage. So um, like they're in their like 60s. This wonderful gay couple, like Jason and Michael, I love them dearly, but like it's just it's so much fun, and like again, very like generational, and but then there's moments where I was like, Oh yeah, okay, generation thing, which I love, and it's no, and they're it's great, yeah. And so it's it's important that we have those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:09

Uh oh yeah, like my ideal dinner party is someone at in different generations, like a thousand percent. I always want someone older than me around. So I'm like, tell me, like, I just tell me everything. I mean, some you know, you're wiser when you're younger in some ways, but you're definitely you've lived some stuff, right? And uh yeah, anyway. My okay, before I let you go, I had brunch with my mom and her best friends um when I was home in February, and we were all laughing, and mom was carried on about something, and then one of them looked at me and she said, If you ever wonder what your mom was like in her 20s, she's the same person. This is how she always behaved. And I was like, how sweet is that that I get to sit across from these women who are so dynamic and so fun, uh, and so honest and direct, um, that I get a piece of my mom in her 20s. Right, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:58

Anyway, I've had a few, um, just to like also like echo on that, a few moments in the last, like, especially the last like few years, where I'm like, oh, I'm fully turning into Jackie to nude. And I'll share a picture with you. There's one that um Matt caught um at that Christmas party I was talking about, and it's my mom's side by side, and we're both talking to someone, and we both had the same like expression, it's hilarious. I'm like, yeah, no, that's that's me and my mom right there.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

Yeah, but like Jackie and Hillary and Lorraine and Nadine need a date.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:30

I love it. That would be fun, be a good podcast. Would be a good podcast. Good luck. I mean, I just actually know my mom, she does um uh smudging online. So yeah, and she was like interviewed by CVC and all this stuff. So she's actually pretty good online. So I'll give her that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:46

Doesn't she also beat? Like, don't you do that together?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:48

No, she doesn't beat. She uh she's just she's more of a seamstress sewer, so she'll do like ribbon skirts and I'll do the beating.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:55

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, it's oh my gosh. I'll put a link to your beating too in the podcast notes. And then, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:01

Yeah, a thousand. Can I do an interview with you with Machie Machie on how do you mean Ottawa? I would love that. Cool. David be part of it for sure. Yeah, let's do it. I gotta love that. All right. Um, thank you. Back to my lobbying now.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:17

All right, love you, love you, love you. Have a beautiful day.