The Other Side

TOS of Burnout

• Nadine Hogan • Season 2 • Episode 26

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0:00 | 1:14:25

This week Nadine sits down with Ro Nwosu - movement educator, studio owner, single mom, and self-proclaimed "weird gal who loves fairies" - for a conversation that starts with childhood comfort foods and ends somewhere much deeper; the slow, sneaky unraveling of burnout, and what it actually takes to come back from it.

Ro gets honest about the years she said yes to everything - the studios, the trainings, the diversity work nobody else wanted to do - while quietly falling apart behind the scenes. She talks about being a Black woman expected to soften her own truth to make other people comfortable, about a relationship she stayed in three conversations too long, about losing touch with her own joy so completely she couldn't answer a simple question: what do you actually like?

It's a conversation about hero complexes, "softer" racism, the friends who call you on your bullshit, and the wild, freeing decision to become unmanageable on purpose. Ro and Nadine talk about what it means to finally hear your own voice again after years of drowning it out, and why being "a problem" might just be the healthiest thing you ever decide to be.

If you've ever smiled through exhaustion, kept saying yes while you were quietly breaking, or wondered if the version of yourself before burnout is still in there somewhere, this one's for you.

We're not experts, we're just humans having a human experience we think you can learn from, or relate to, or laugh at, or cry over. So hit download, dive in, and hear how Ro truly found herself on The Other Side x

@the_otherside_pod

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the other side pod. I'm Nadine. We're not experts. We're just humans having a human experience we think you can learn from, or relate to, or laugh at, or cry over. So hit download, dive in, and hear how folks found themselves on the other side. Recording with Ro. Okay, baby. Um what is your childhood comfort food?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yummy, yummy, yummy. Um, I really love. Oh my goodness, how come I can't remember? Fufu is my favorite. Um, mixed with like a really good okra soup. It's just like the the texture. The texture is so good, the taste is good. I like a little bit of like bitterness in my food. I don't know where if that's just like cultural or what. Um, but I love I love the sliminess of okra. Like you have to use the foo foo, grab it, feel it in your hands. You gotta manipulate it with your fingers so that you can actually get into like a really decent scooping ball, and then just and it's what is it?

SPEAKER_01

Wait, what is foo-foo? So it's like a tell me everything and then make it.

SPEAKER_00

I was like farina, but like a semolina, uh a wheat-based, like um a grain. And it's like you just pour that into water and just start stirring it, and it becomes thick. It's great, um, pliable, doughy-like.

SPEAKER_01

Like not like polenta. Not polenta.

SPEAKER_00

I've never had polenta. What's polenta? I've never had polenta before.

SPEAKER_01

I've heard of it, but I'm not sure what polenta is. I would describe it the same way. Like um, Simolina. Am I saying that right? But like it's like this grain you pour in water. It gets, I love it. It gets almost like chewy and dense and delicious, and like I think it, I think it's like that. Is it the same?

SPEAKER_00

It's possible. How do we spell foo-foo? Yeah. Um, oh my goodness, how do I spell foo foo? F-U-F-U? F-U-F-U. Yeah. That's how I spell it, but I know that's probably not how I want to spell it. I know that all the Nigerians are like that are listening are gonna be like, girl, how do you not know? I'm like, listen, I was just gonna eat the food. My parents just gave me the food to eat. And it stuck in the city.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I Googled it. While sorry, wait, I just want to say, while both are starchy side dishes, fufu is a soft, starchy dough. Okay, from West and Central Africa, whereas polenta is an Italian porridge made from ground corn. Sorry, I said the wrong thing about polenta.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's okay, but we we're figuring it out. Like I feel like a lot of things come from a lot of the same things, so it's cool to know. Polenta. I will try polenta. So fufu is a dough, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Can it be sweet and um because you're talking about it in an in an okra soup, can it be also made sweet?

SPEAKER_00

It can be made sweet. You can put plantain in it and have a plantain fufu, which is really good. Love that. So, like, I'll stir in fufu into that. Or I don't know if anyone's put anything other than like the way it is, because honestly, you you almost want it to not like taste like you just want it to taste like dough. Cause like the flavoring is all in the in the in the soup and the stews that you use, really. Yeah, so good. And it's like that connection of like knowing your food, you know, like you have to use your hands. Okay, you don't have to use your hands. Really? You don't have to use your hands, but I definitely look sideways at anyone that uses like a fork or a spoon to eat their foo foo for sure. Cause I'm like, that is not how my ancestors did it. Like, full on hands in there, pick it up, move it around, get into your stew, eat. Just like that. Same like sound effect. And it's like naturally whole shape although, right? Like they usually say like it's a swallow type food. So like you literally just in, done. So delicious. Gonna have that today. Do you are you gonna have it today? I think so. Like, I'm not gonna make it, I'm just gonna go into Ottawa and like have it. There's like tons of restaurants that like make it, so I'm totally just gonna go pick some up. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Uh uh, can you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes, hi. Um, my name is Ro. I'm I'm a weird gal. I'm gonna start off with things that are not my occupation. Um, yeah, I'm a weird gal who really loves fairies. Um, I love reading, I love being outdoors, I love the sun, I like traveling. I have a child who is really cool. Call him the Fleshling. Um, because like I love vampires and I think they're really cool. And I thought, ah, blah, blah, blah, fleshling. Super fun. Um, I am a movement educator and a wellness and like culture consultant strategist, I would say. And I really dig joy. I think joy is really fun, and I think joy is like a really great way to kind of notice um what's going on around you in your neighborhood, politically, socially. Um, you can really tell a lot about people's joy and like what they are protesting against or protesting for, or you know, and so yeah, that's me. Oh, and um, yeah, people are cool.

SPEAKER_01

Can we talk about wait, how do you use joy to assess what's going on in the community or how people beyond like seeing someone in the midst of like a joyful moment, of course, you're like, oh, they're having a good time or they're feeling good, but like, how do you use joy to assess how a person is doing or a situation?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I feel like in the world we are right now, people think the worst of each other. That's like the first thing that comes to mind is like, oh, there's this and there's that and there's this. And how people really access their joy or have access to it, whether that's learning something new or discovering that they've created or built a new talent, or um dancing with each other, or finding moments to like commune together without barriers, whether it's financial, whether it's social, whether it's whichever, um, those kind of moments really like piece people together. I think COVID was a really good example where people were able to come together and really find moments of joy despite what we're all experiencing at the same time. And then we forget that like what we're in right now, we're kind of all experiencing at the same time, maybe different levels, different like spaces, different whatever, but how we tap into like joy essentially, and it's not like being like, oh my god, positive all the time, but knowing that there we can create space for happiness, for recognition, for even joy and just being able to access our own like emotions around grief, or access our own feelings around whatever's going on, or to have conversations, to grow ourselves and like learn more about ourselves from our mistakes, from our whichever. Um, I find that helps me assess like where people are at a specific point in time, or like how they feel about their current surroundings, or how much they're going to actually put effort into um growing their own community, their neighborhoods rather than growing their business, I'd say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because you um in this fitness space, in this movement space, you have a lot of connection, a lot of interactions with a lot of humans. And then I guess the one of the lenses you're assessing them through, not assessing, assessing sounds almost like calculated, but like one of the lenses you're experiencing people through is their access to joy.

SPEAKER_00

I do feel like joy is a really great access point to get to know someone. I can ask people, so what are you doing right now that's really making you feel so connected to like your strengths or making you really connected to like laughter? Like what makes you laugh? And some people will say, like, I love watching the office. That makes me laugh. Okay, cool. Get it. Um, some people will say, like, I love going to dance because when I go dance, there's like a freeing moment where like I feel like people are understanding me. People can feel a sense of belonging, right? Maybe with people in running, that's like the same thing too. Um, you know, they run together, and there's like a feeling of okay, I can run by myself, and that's totally fine. But when I'm running with other people, I'm feeling a sense of like immense gratitude because like there's a capacity I'm able to like tap into, but there's also conversation I'm able to can like tap into, and then we forget to tell people that like you're also very capable of like bringing joy into moments of your life that are tiny or big or in the middle that don't require purchase.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. This morning walking my dog, and like, oh my god, like you know, just walking him and seeing the gardens blooming. Joy. Um, okay, we wanted to chat about burnout. Um before burnout, did you think of joy the same way?

SPEAKER_00

Um I don't think so. I think like I practiced it more. Um and I think I practiced it without any like abandon, which is really cool. I didn't really care what like the outside world felt about it. I really just cared about like supporting my needs and like supporting the people around me, and that was really cool. And then burnout kind of kicked in and um it did like a huge overdrive in my brain, um, on top of other things, you know, of decisions I made and like ways that I acted and and oh my goodness, so many things. Um you know, which is cool because I I'm grateful for those, even though not all of them were great, healthy, practical, tons of crash-outs. Um yeah, but it it was like necessary, super necessary.

SPEAKER_01

What year would you say was um now like what year were you burnt out? Because um, I don't think burnout is like a point in time. I think it's something that starts and builds and snowballs. Um where were you? Uh is it the right uh am I saying this right way, the height of your burnout? What year can you take me there? What was happening?

SPEAKER_00

Um I think I noticed it maybe a year going into the studio when I first purchased the studio, like a year after that or so. Um bless my therapist, though, because like they had already pinpointed it. Um but at the time I was one of those silent people where it's like, oh, I'm going through something, I'm not gonna talk about it with my partner, I'm not gonna talk about it with whatever else. I'm gonna just figure it out and get it fixed and and focus on like fixing the problem and thinking I can't.

SPEAKER_01

You knew you weren't doing well, but you were like, I'm not gonna talk about this with anybody.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and not even trusting people to actually hold it in a way that I needed. Um I did not trust people for a really long time. I just had so many uh I used to give people the benefit of the doubt. I used to do that a lot, and I had like a um abusive relationship that had kind of changed my mind on that completely. In terms of like trusting people, and um I just stopped, I stopped really trusting people that I wouldn't even give them like the full picture of what was going on. I'd give them like a snip and then be like, yeah, I don't want to talk about the rest of it. And then when things started to fall through, I'd started to tell them like all the stuff that's happening because I'm panicking of like, oh my god, I should have, you know, and it's like omitting the truth, really, so that people don't help people won't help you, and that was not great. Um and I would not take too much accountability for certain things because I was just afraid that if I that I would always have to take accountability, I was always taking accountability for certain things, and I was like, no, I've gotta like share this somehow. Um, and then I just stopped taking accountability for certain things. We all go through that period, I'm sure. Um, and I started taking on too much more responsibility on myself of like needing to make sure everyone was like supported, needing to make sure I always like listened to everyone. I wasn't a great leader at the time because I just thought it would be easier if I kept my mouth shut, you know, and just let people do what they need to do. It's easier on that. And a lot of that attributed also to like being a black woman and just noticing that, like, um, you know, during COVID, even talking to people about stuff. And then it to kind of like, you know, they were really interested to talk about it when like it affected their bottom line, uh, really interested to talk about it when it affected like or when it boosted like their their stuff. Um, really interested to talk about it when it was really good in terms of like whatever and then their social media, their marketing, or what they're doing. I was there too when I was like, yeah, I went there to also like, you know, use in that sense of like, oh, this might actually, you know, support my family, and I might actually be able to like have the career I've been thinking about, or like be in spaces that like would support that. Um, and then kind of forgetting my own cultural needs of like I need depth, you know, and I need people to have a sense of vulnerability and um whatnot when it comes to things. Um, but I've closed myself off, so how can I expect that to kind of work out? And so yeah, I burnt out really heavily. Um, and I just couldn't, I was doing too much. And there was also a decline in like my finances at the time, like at the beginning of like COVID when everything went through. Um, I went from like making like 50k a year to like 150 because deals were rolling in, information was rolling in. Um, you know, we want your point of view. I was already supporting businesses and whatnot on like certain things, and then it was like whatever else offering. And I was offering all this stuff for like, can I get your opinion for a second? Can I get opinion, you know? And that kept being so intense because I ended up being by my own, you know, my own, um my own uh, what's the word? By my own fault. I'll say by my own fault, saying yes to everything. Let me like, I don't mind supporting you on that, or like let me help you, you know. And then I would share the load with friends, being like, hey, you can check in with them or check in with them, and um thinking that like an ambassadorship was gonna change, you know, maybe the outlook for other people and support. Because if I'm being honest, I was feeling lonely of being like in this space, and I felt lonely being in that space alone, and I didn't want that.

SPEAKER_01

Um alone in what way? Can you elaborate?

SPEAKER_00

Co-working in what space like teaching and stuff, um, doing things together. I felt quite like lonely in that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, like no one else, sorry, you were in the fitness space, right? Yeah, and like you didn't have co-workers because there's other teachers.

SPEAKER_00

There's other teachers, but I didn't feel like I could have specific conversations about, you know, ooh, race, ooh, politics, oh, you know, community building, or even just like um similar, some similar interests, you know. And I was always trying to kind of like, yeah, I'd love to do that. It's a like an unsafe space for me to be in, you know, and I couldn't communicate like this is an unsafe space for me to be in. Being the only black space is like an unsafe space to be in, you know. And I couldn't communicate that till a point because I was like, well, maybe this is how things change if I like if I actually like make the effort to go rather than just being like, nope, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, like you took it upon yourself. I people asked you to do this, and it was the Black Lives Matters movement. You were like, This is where I can go in and hopefully have impact and change. Okay. So then you go into these spaces that you don't feel safe in, but at this point you're like, I'm gonna take it upon myself to put myself in a place where I don't feel safe because there's nobody else that looks like me, that thinks like me, that has the same implications about being here that I do, but I'm gonna be the one to do it to hopefully break down some barriers and some doors for other people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but it's for myself too, not like I think maybe I had a hero, maybe at a hero complex. I don't know. Who knows? I'm just like maybe it was a hero complex of some sort of like having to save, but also having wanting to build more community and knowing that like I'm a firstborn daughter, so like and and that could be anything, but I'm also in Nigerian culture, it's up to you to like do all the things. I definitely deferred from that very young, very early, being like, I can't take on all that responsibility, or it's not all my responsibility to hold, um, to going back into taking responsibility for trying to take responsibility for everything. You know.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, but to give yourself some grace about this uh hero complex, um, you were also highly sought out because you were in the industry and I know this because I was also in the same industry you were, um, as a studio owner, and then all of a sudden everyone's like, Who can we look for? Because there was only one at the time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There's sorry, you just cut off. There's only like what did you say?

SPEAKER_00

It was only like one at the time, yeah, at that point. Like I didn't know other instructors as much that were there, and then the accessibility of finances made it possible for more to like come through, which is really great.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's like, okay, so we're all gonna reach out to Roe to come in and uh help us um understand the barriers that we put in place, help us understand how this is uh like a most mostly white space. It's like, okay, how did this happen? But it's like instead of instead of um, I don't know, doing this in another way, it's like I feel like everyone was like, we need row. And if I'm getting this right, you were like, opportunities are finally opening up for me. I'm gonna put myself here, even though I don't really feel safe, even though I'm a bit tired, even though there's nobody else I can like get to come with me who gets it that I can like share this and collaborate this work with. You went to it was just you. So you were depleted, but still had a really hard time saying no, because all these doors are opening. Is that yeah?

SPEAKER_00

And I also want to be clear too, like there were there were other like teachers and stuff. I think I was just the only one full-time, full-time teaching, no other work, no other full-time job, no other, like right.

SPEAKER_01

I had a studio already, like I still haven't seen Yeah, you've been in the industry for a while, a long time.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I started like when my kid was like born basically, and so like to me, I just did too much. I just did too much, you know, and like I didn't want those opportunities to go away because what we're told when we're younger, um, you know, it's interesting because I almost told my son this yesterday, too, and I had to like cut myself right off because I didn't want to like repeat the pattern. But my parents have always told me from young, you've gotta like do more and do better. Because the way that the world is set up, especially in Canada or the states, you will never get work, you will never get a pay raise, you will never be recognized for anything that you're doing, even if you don't need the recognition, things will be taken from you. You will be the one they ask for support all the time. So it's like that mammy effect where you're almost like the they see you still as like the servant or the person that's doing all the things for. Them, but never the person that can be running the show, or can be also getting the same um income, or can also be side by side, you know. They're like they will pick someone that looks like them, and they will not pick someone who is from an African, black, Caribbean culture, or even BIPOC culture, because it's already ingrained in them to see us as less than. And my mom told me that almost every day, and actually still does, honestly, still does, um, sometimes, and I have to like take it in with like however I can, but then I sometimes almost catch myself about to tell my son because he'll come in and talk to me about something, and I'm like, you know, and people are good in in in in nature, they are, they really are. I think we all have blind spots too, and we forget that like these aspects now that we're more aware of like what these things are called, what they are, naming them, that like there needs to be like a shift, and so for me the burnout came from needing people needing me to kind of do all the the back work, you know, uh me being able to consider but not being considered, and then from there I'm just becoming numb, you know, and not considering, and then I keep saying yes, which is my own doing in the first place of saying yes all the time and being afraid of like not being able to feed my son. I'm a single mom, so I was like, okay, I gotta do these things because everything's shutting down, and like I need to feed my son, and like there's this going on, and like you know, there's a different capacity and outlook for black mothers as well, um, in any system, you know, and even people saying your name in rooms or sharing those things, like it it was very rare and hard to like do back then, and you know, then the burnout came more of like living in a smaller town and knowing that you can't fuck up in public, like you you just can't, and that changes your whole aspect of like the way the culture is here of like you gotta care about what people think on the outside. I never grew up with that, except for you had to care about like how white people see you so that you don't like in certain places so that you don't get tripped up in whatever else, so you don't get in trouble, you don't get hurt, you don't get jail, whatever it may be. But then coming to a smaller town where it's like you really can't fuck up because there's really no one else that looks like you, and so if you do anything, even if you just start crying on the side of the road, people are gonna just post it somewhere or talk about it or say whatever else, and it impacts you more than you think because people literally come up to you in your business and in your face about it. Um, and all of that started to compound, and including like, you know, a relationship that was failing, friendships I was like removing, um, learning more about myself. Like, I ended up getting a diagnosis of being like ADHD anxiety and depression, um, all round up into one, and then being on the spectrum as well. And my doctor's like, we're gonna do this in like phases, we're gonna have to like work through these and I'm so grateful for my doctor too, but like work these in phases, and then when you realize something about your life, um, it almost becomes your whole world of like you start thinking about every single thing you did, you're like, Is it because of this? Is this because of that? Or like you realize you go into your family history, and so that I was so immersed in that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and then my family stuff trying to understand, like, was this my mom's down generations?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so like I was learning, like, okay, some of this is like a lot of this is passed down. Um, and having to get that history back from your parents is really tough, and then also having to support your family somehow the best that you can, and having these conversations with your family amongst everything. Um finding new friends, and then also realizing with the friends that I had before, even up until now, that like there was not there was not an alignment that I needed, but I couldn't communicate that effectively. You know, I literally took a two-year course to be a little bit better at communicating because I couldn't effectively communicate my needs and feelings without getting angry and not like destructive angry, angry of like, I just can't say that you're not doing enough for me, or I just can't say no, or I just can't say, you know, I'm hurting right now, or I just can't say you're being a racist piece of shit, you know, like this is not I could effectively type it out, and my social media became that space where I could type out my feelings, and then for the past after my like recognized that I'm super, super burnt out, and I um decided to cut myself off from like working, took a sabbatical from working, took a sabbatical from people, and just stopped touching my emails and everything else. Um I realized, like, hey, like I can say no, and this is exactly what I need. But I stopped talking about or being who I am, who is like, I don't care if I share certain things. I share certain things on social, but I was afraid of even just sharing parts about me or even talking about what I'm doing, or like sharing things with friends, even. I only like had a close group of friends that I could share it with, but like I couldn't even share how I felt about a certain situation. I had to really like dive into that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so yeah, would you say that okay, so we're into COVID, um, which is in 20 early 2020. Um, and then you start working with a lot of studios, Black Lives Matter becomes this um this really public movement that everyone is getting behind. Every single industry is like, oh gosh, okay, we need to do better, we need to do more diversity work, more um work around uh inclusivity. And then in the fitness movement community in our city, in our community, you worked a lot with a lot of different studio owners, correct? Okay. So this is still 2020. Is there a time when the work started to peter out? And is that when he realized how burnt out you were, or were you pissed off about it being petering out? Like what how did that all kind of um start to fade?

SPEAKER_00

I think when we got back to almost fully in person.

SPEAKER_01

That's so like 2021.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. End of 2021, I think that's when it started to peter off. When people were like, oh, okay, people are gonna start coming back. It's too cool. Um, you know, right? We don't need to do this work. Okay. Yeah, not as much, not as public, which it doesn't have to be public. It never had to be public, actually, to begin with. Um, but I think when you don't deliver the information in a way people want, people want it to be constantly to soften their guilt, maybe, or their shame and stuff. And for me, it was like, this is the fucking issue. And I and like, yes, I'm in the studio talking about this and the training, but this studio is also an issue. I don't care if I'm sitting in here, the studio is also an issue. This is how we can like move further and talk about it, right? Um, getting people to think and like also assess the studios around in trainings. I used to get uh and ask people to like go around to these other studios and see how accessible they are in like different ways. Are they using stairs? Yeah, we have stairs in our studio too, so we're not accessible to everyone. So then how do you create classes for people in your area if we're like that so it makes it accessible? Because like stairs isn't just for you know people who need wheelchair who have wheelchair use, you know. Maybe someone has hurt their knee, maybe someone, you know, has a hard time getting up and like has hard time breathing and they can't use the stairs. There's so many other options. Yes, there's other places that they can go to, but you can also still make access points for people to, or give people the information of places to go that are accessible and work together with those. Yeah, right, right. Um and I think like that other way of thinking, I think like I remember a studio owner telling me to be like, Wow, that's a little bit too like harsh. Like, you gotta like really give them a softer version of like racism and whatever. I was like, what is a softer version or a version of racism? Because like for someone who's had themselves beat because of the their color of their skin, abused because of their color of skin, violated everything else. I mean, there's no softer version that I can really give you. I there's no really Also, like what is that even?

SPEAKER_01

What's the message there? Right. That I want your help, but only I only want your help if you will communicate it to me in the way that I want it to be communicated. Like use my voice to tell me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, don't question them, don't have conversations with them, don't deep dive. But like communication is how, or not communication, but even just questioning and having like a round table and being able to express your feelings without judgment and like like pressure to conform and deliver things in a certain way is how you know a lot of cultures come together, like to conform to a palatable way of making things very cute and and chill and whichever else is the reason why we're in this like space of like there is no work being done on it. Um, people might be doing this on the background, and I'm hoping so, and that's really great. Um, but I just knew for me, like I burned out from it and I just stopped entertaining it. There's only like one studio.

SPEAKER_01

When someone says to you, hey Ro, can you uh dial this down and and talk to me and my team about racism in a more in a softer way, how do you feel in that moment?

SPEAKER_00

I tell them it's an extra $8,000. I think that's the only way now that's the only yeah, that's the only way I said it's an extra $8,000 if you want me to soften the palette to make it palatable to you, and then I give them like a an education piece, a mini education piece of like let let's let's let's reframe it a different way of like how you want things to be palatable, and then I'll show you if that like works really well. Um, you're either coming to me because you understand how I offer. Maybe I'm not the one, and that's okay. There's gonna be a two, there's gonna be a three, there's gonna be a four, there's gonna be a a one before me, and you can go to them to make sure that's palatable for you, um, that it's like comforting for you. You don't want the discomfort, you don't want to engage, don't want to create the change, that's totally fine. But for me, the joy is being able to have these conversations with people. And even though we're feeling that space of discomfort, we're able to repair and and build something out of that. We're able to have a conflict. There's there's things that I won't, I just won't entertain. Like I just won't have a I won't come back to it. I won't entertain the conversation anymore. I'll just say, like, yeah, things are all good because I have to determine if it's in alignment for me or if it's within my energy range or capacity or whatever you want to call it. Um, and so yeah, I I sometimes I ghost on those things. I'll just say, like, hey, no, everything's good. I wish you well, and that's it. I won't talk about it more anymore, I won't pass it along to anyone else. I just leave it there because it's not there, you know, I can't. Friendships, relationships, whatever else. But maybe that's healthy, maybe it's not. But I think from like this burnout aspect of constantly having to overexplain myself of why this doesn't work for me, and I always have to implement because as a black woman, this is why you're doing this, and it's fucking, I always have to bring that lens in, and not all the time is that lens accurate for it, so I won't. But a lot of the things are based on a white view of stuff, and so I have to tell you, you know, this is not how the all the world works, there's a different aspect of that, and so therefore, I'm not just gonna conform because it feels softer and supportive for you, because I'm not here to just like always hold your hand, I'm also here to like make sure you trip or you trip a little bit and go, hmm. Maybe I'll I'll and check that the next time. The same way I because like when I how I enter a space, I have to constantly check how I enter a space, even still to this day, even if I own space, I have to like check how I enter into it because I either have to mo um protection, uh, safety, um, you know, can I be comfortable to be myself in there? Um, you know, even in a conversation, a talk and a consultation, you know, I have to make sure people and myself that I'm going in there with also an open mind of like not everyone is is there to like cut me or whatever, not everyone is there to um, you know, be unsafe. I need to like check myself. So like if I have to check myself constantly, like not over-explaining or I have to, whichever else, I'm constantly thinking, okay, cool, I've got I've got it, got it, got it, got it. And that's anxiety of on some sorts, and then other words, it's the conditioning of like having to make sure I am on my best behavior. Whereas I can walk into a room and someone just automatically touched my hair and be like, oh my god, so great. But like there's no rhyme or reason for it, and then it's like, oh, you're you know, there's all these other things that come to it, and I feel like just being so accessible for a lot of places and people that did not align with me, and I didn't know how to um navigate that at that age and stage, and like I also didn't feel like I had the right support, I wasn't really vocal on what type of support I needed too. It just burnt me out to a point where I was like, and I was paying for a lot of things. I was like, you know, I gotta make sure my kid always has something. So I would, um, and the joy for me too is like I like my closet, I like doing things. So like making sure I still have those access points to joy. And so when I started losing a lot of things that made me feel joyful, I started getting resent there. I started getting annoyed, I started getting angry, I started getting, um, why is it that I've gotta like be the one? How come people won't take the initiative to, you know? So I was blaming other people for those things and then realizing like I just need to tell people like fucking take initiative or get the fuck out. You know, I just had to make the decision, yeah. I couldn't do that out of fear of like, are we gonna lose? You know, and like I also love that sorry, cut you off. No, go ahead. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_01

Um I I like how you're explaining this um and referring to the stage of your life and the age that you were at in how now you look back and you're like, I I wasn't capable of expressing what I needed or expressing um or even understanding from myself because of the age and the stage.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, some conversations like I needed to have, and other conversations I knew I could not have because if I had to have those conversations, I'd have to soften who I am. And so, like, some conversations I just said, like, listen, I if we don't talk, if we don't text, that's okay. Because I just can't be the one offering to save or offer to be the one to find people work, or offering the one to like make sure that there's always um generating opportunities because that's what I was doing for so long. And like I just wanted to make sure everyone was taken care of. Because my goal is like all me and my friends are working together at different different things that we do, but we're all supporting each other and like making sure we all have work and we all have our kids are taken care of, and we all have a savings, and we all have like a life going together, not like commune, but even just like supported and safe, and like new people we meet, same thing, you know, just genuine care and um and like and in honesty and able to be who we are without the judgment of it all, and be able to t have conflict, but then still be able to be like, nah, like come on, like let's let's repair and fix it up. And then I realized there's some things where I was like, I can't be in proximity to that as well, because it also blocked a lot of I was the one blocking my blessings from keeping by putting my data things because I think thought that I needed to like I gotta be there for people all the time, yet like my family is suffering and I need to be there for them, and I was ignoring them. I was suffering and I needed to be there for me, for them, and then my son needed me in a different way, and I wasn't doing that, I was focusing more on my business and stuff, and my relationship at the time, and then not realizing that like he needed to expand more in that age and stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Um like going back to the age and stage, it's the it's these hard one lessons that in that moment, yeah. You uh I'm not saying you had to live that experience, but you did live that experience, and from that experience you were able to look back and be like, oh, I didn't even see my own needs. So okay, why am I why do I keep bringing it back to the age and the stage? I think it was also the time, like it was a very um intense moment in time in the world for most of us, I would say. And so again, to give yourself grace about the age that you were at and the stage of life that you were at, it was also from what I'm understanding you telling me all of these doors all of a sudden were opening. And if I'm like coming from hearing your mom tell you you gotta work harder, you gotta be even better, you gotta do like so. You were like, I gotta say yes to all this stuff. And then you were like, I have I'm a single mom, I want to take care of my kid, I gotta make money to take care of my kid, and then your income is tripling. It's like this perfect storm of events for burnout for you for everyone to kind of like uh I almost picture all of us like leeches onto you, and I include myself because I definitely asked you questions in that in those years, and like leeching onto you and being like if you could go back and talk to Roe of I don't know early stages, Jen, not January, but early early months of 2021, is there something you would tell her now?

SPEAKER_00

Say no more. Um charge them well above asking, because unfortunately, we're in this capitalistic world. I think if you didn't doubt yourself and charge them, you would know who valued based on that. Um don't put yourself in that studio space. What studio space? Just any studio space. I don't know, like name studio spaces, but just don't put yourself in that studio space. Um it was not a good idea. Um advocate for yourself more without the fear of what it will impact you on. Um, you should have left them sooner. You should have left them a whole lot sooner. The first time, the first three times you thought that you needed to leave, you should have left.

SPEAKER_01

You should have Are you talking about your relationship?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I should have left. I think that really like I held on to that way too long. Way too long. Um the second conversation I had, I remember I should have. Yeah. Um probably wouldn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, sorry. Probably would have told the studio what?

SPEAKER_00

No, I said I probably would have told my younger self too to like just keep being courageous. You don't need to like be quiet. Like being quieter doesn't mean you're more mature. You know, maturity isn't based on like whether you're loud or quiet. There's different people all over the place, so don't let someone else's reality become yours. And I let someone else's reality or someone's outlook on reality become mine, um, based on their worldview, to which they haven't really seen much of the world, and that was a stupid idea on my part. But I listened to myself more, keep doing the therapy, which I did, so that's good. Yeah, um, yeah, and don't be afraid just to like share your point of view. The worst that can happen is someone doesn't agree with it, and you have to go, yeah, that's fair or to.

SPEAKER_01

Your point about removing yourself from studio spaces that don't work for you, uh, just accepting, like, right, this is not a space for me for whatever reason. You don't need to explain it to anybody, and then removing yourself. And why I said what studio space is not to name a studio because you had a lot of um connections with a lot of studios. It was more how do you know for yourself? Uh, if anybody's listening to this, how do you know when you're in the right space? And how do you know when you're in the wrong space? Because I do know that there's studios that you felt like were the right space, or maybe it was just your own studio that was the right space, and that's why you opened one. Um, another one, because you had a studio before COVID called Movement, correct? Movement studio that you closed, and then during COVID, or I mean, correct me because I think I'm getting this wrong, but I think it was in 2022 when you bought your current studio, the first one? Yeah, 2023. 2023. Okay. So how do you know that it's the right space for yourself? And how do you know how do people know when it's the wrong space?

SPEAKER_00

I think for I I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I want to be an active participant. Like I want to see it flourish. I want to be a part, not saying that I'm like at every event or anything else, but I'm I'm participating like with my entire being, um, being at it, you know. Um making friends through it. I'm not connecting with people on like a financial level of like you're paying a membership, so come through here, you know. I'm actually and it's not like oh let's go on like uh a workshop or a treat or anything else. I can just sit with people and have coffee, you know, and I think to me that's like participating in a space. Um, I'm able to have like funny conversations with people and like send them memes and stuff. I know. Um whereas I felt like my I in order for me to be a part of some spaces, I had to really um I had to be like, yeah, I felt like I had to just like conform and I had to be there all the time in order to be a part. Um and that also equated to like output of like if I had to I had to be more visible to do that, and so I think like when it comes down to being like a part of a space or to be part of a community or whichever, it does need to feel like I know we talk about third spaces, but it I don't even know if it's like a third space. I think it just needs to feel very clear, there needs to be a lot of clarity. You're going there because it you are sharing things on it because it um you feel like you can show up as yourself. You're not changing parts of who you are to like be in it. I was changing parts of who I was from right down to the look at some points, and I just like stopped doing that and stopped showing up and stopped doing activities there and other places. Um so when I realized I could just kind of walk in and be like, it was like, hey, how are you doing? How are things going? And like have a genuine conversation with people, those are the places that I showed up and showed to. Um, you know, I've got a few cool studio spaces that like they come here to Arn Prior and like they come and have a coffee with me. It's not always me coming into Ottawa, so there was a reciprocity as well, like a big reciprocity, which is really important for me. Um I need to create that connection with people and a connection in the space. I know that like um in my own studio space, I didn't feel connected to it for quite some time. You know, I felt like I couldn't be a part of it or be in there or um associate or even just like step in as myself. Whereas like the past year or and a half or two, I've been able to feel that more, which is great. You know, I contribute that to the team, and then also I contribute that to like me also learning more about being a leader and taking more information and like getting support and mentorship on that. Um, and so yeah, all that to say. I think clarity is really important. It's hard to get clarity when you're in the thick of it. You feel like you're in a rose bush or a wine bush, and it's just like coming down on you, and you're like, and then you like something happens or you have a conversation, you're like, shit, I need to get more clear about my um connection points, and like I had to get more clear about my joy too. I took a trip to Columbia.

SPEAKER_01

Going back to joy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I took a trip to Colombia, and it was my first vacation where I didn't work. It's wild, and that was like 2024, so like I didn't have to teach yoga, do anything. I just like I did teach yoga, but I didn't have to. I didn't set it up to be like, oh, this is gonna help me like pay somewhat for the trip. You know, I went there, went to a host booked like a one-night uh or a one-person like hostel room and stuff, private room, and I actually got to walk around, take in like what's going on around me, just be a person. No like need, no one needed me for anything specific. Um, and I do shout out to the team at the time who gave me space to do that because I just said nobody email me.

SPEAKER_01

Your team at Union?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, at the time, yeah. I had a different team I've been, and um they were really supportive and helpful at that time, and I definitely fucked some of that up. But um it was so nice to just be able to like show up and read a book, have dinner, dance, and learn and actually learn something. Like I have not taken a class for myself or a workshop for myself in a long time. I take workshops like from home, online ones, and whatnot, but I haven't really taken any in a space with people um because none has have really connected with me for sure, and none have really aligned with the values, but also um the accessibility component too and how it's marketed has not really, you know, entertained for me too. But it was nice to take a workshop on like coffee making, you know, have such an appreciation for like coffee, and then also like a yoga workshop on just like the back, and that was really cool. Um, a nature walk, I love history and I love museums and I love architecture, and so being able to actually like incorporate those more, and so then when I came back, I was like, you know, I really skipped out on a lot of things that make me feel supportive and happy, and like give me pleasure and like help me to see the world differently, and I've been focused on a the work, but also keeping everyone else happy because happy people in my life also makes me happy. That's also something that I find joy in, is that like my people that I care for are taken care of and protected, like absolutely protected, um, you know, and it was nice to just like take a trip and like experience that. Even going to London like the year prior was like so great because I got to just enjoy that, and like there's also this notion of like you're a mom and you can't go, you can't travel by yourself, and you can't take time to go do those things, and you have to take your kids with you, and I'm just not that kind of parent. Um, and my kid knows that like at this point that I'm not that kind of parent. He loves that because he gets to go do some things with me, and then some things I'm like, hey, I'm gonna bring you back stuff. He's like, Cool, have fun. Like, I know I gotta be in school, like that's fine. Um, also means capacity and like other stuff. So I think I just really appreciated, like, I'm still in burnout, it still comes up, you know, something that like really leaves you. But I definitely work differently. Um, I definitely move differently, I definitely have conversations differently. I definitely choose where my face is seen or where I'm seen. Um for very specific reasons of like maybe I'm just not aligned with it anymore. Has nothing to do with like the it's just I'm not aligned. My my values are very different and they've changed, and I don't do things out of obligation or to feel some kind of way. Um, I'm not about the protect your peace thing. I think that's bullshit because like it means people aren't actually in conflict with each other to resolve anything, they're just navigating, they're just trying to ignore stuff. Um, you know, there's some times where you need to like just let things die as they are, um, and not give attention to things or to remove things from your life or to whichever else. And I think I'm just very clear on like when I'm doing that now. I'm not humming and hawing for like and doubting myself for like months and months and months before I make a decision. I make a decision quite clearly these days, and that's I think that's for me the coming out of burnout, being able to make the decision without the anxiety behind it, without the um the fear behind it, of knowing that like I just gotta like take care of it. I gotta take the care of things.

SPEAKER_01

So as someone else who experienced burnout, uh, I wasn't able to hear my voice because it it was stuffed very far down. And I from what you're telling me, I think it was similar for you. I think in the thick of it, in the rose bush, as you said, um you cannot hear yourself. And then when you slowly start to like peel back those branches and like push away some of those thorns, and then you're like get yourself a bit free from things that were causing you a lot of stress and anxiety and um uh toxicity and uh stress. I already said stress. Um, when you start to remove those things, and I I'm picturing you and I in these little rose bushes, and you start to like uh it the world gets a bit lighter. Yeah, uh, you feel a bit safer, you make your world a little smaller, because I think we both did that, and then you can hear like little kid row, right? Like little kid Nadine. Like, what did I like to do? I remember I went up for a bike ride. Um, this was like in the thick of it for me, um, a couple of years ago, and I said to David, I used to love road biking. Can can you can we go out for a ride? I want to understand what I liked because I I I was like, I don't even know what I like anymore. And we went for a bike ride. Man, that road bike, the seat is so small and it's so hard. And we were going. I was exhausted because I don't know if this happened to you, but I had no energy. Like I was at my like my most unhealthy physically and mentally because I had no energy to give to my body. My body was just a vehicle, a vessel to like get me from point A to point B. I had no fun with it. So we're biking, and I hated it. And I was like, what did I like? And he bless him, he was like biking next to me. He's like, You loved going down um Gatnow Park, you loved going down those hills super fast, you loved uh biking out to hear me get coffee. You loved this, you loved being outside, and and I was like, nope, don't like it. And I and I brought the bike back home and like didn't touch it again for another like year and a half, probably. Because because you lose, you lose I coming back full circle to the joy when you're in burnout, you really do lose any sense of trust in yourself, your own voice, you can't hear it, you can't even remember what brought you joy. So getting to those moments, if I walked into your studio back then and you said, What brings you joy? Don't even know. I probably uh if I was wearing a mask, which I mean to a lot of people because I owned a business, same as you. You talked about you had to be this person on the street for other reasons as well. That what was your experience? My experience was I masked up because I had this business, um, you know, it's very client-based, I had a big team. So I was just like, make everyone think you're doing great. Um, so if you asked me and I and I had my mask on, I probably would have like said something that wasn't true, like, I don't know, I love this. But if you caught me and I felt safe with you and you were like, I see you, little kidney bean, what do you like to do? I don't know that I would have been able to answer.

SPEAKER_00

Same. Yeah. Same. And like when you're talking about like the the rosebush and things moving, like the biggest thing I noticed during bat burnout was like, I'm the problem. That's the thing I know.

SPEAKER_01

Same more.

SPEAKER_00

And so, like, if why sometimes you just have to realize that like sometimes I'm the problem. Like, sometimes I'm the one that needs to, I can only take responsibility for so much, obviously, but there are certain things that I need to be able to do, and I couldn't do those things. And so I had no problem saying, like, you know what, if I take myself out of the situation, is the problem fixed? In some ways, yes. Yeah. If I address the situation, however I need to, whether that's conversation, whether that's a blocking, whether that's like, nope, I will not be like, I will not be entering or entertaining that conversation. I can't be near you because of the proximity to someone else right now that I cannot be around for my own health. Um, like I'm gonna be a problem. And I think that's and like it's okay for me to be a problem. Um, I think historically for black women, we're always seen as a problem and that it's a bad thing. It's like, no, I like I don't mind being a problem for to make sure that like I'm well. I don't mind being a problem so that my son can still see more of me and understands, like, not to repeat my my lessons. Um, I had four amazing um girlfriends that I still have now, and like I'm grateful for them because they don't just like let me get away with shit, which is great. They don't let me get away with shit. Like, I think some people say, like, yeah, they're always in my corner, of course, but they're also gonna tell me when I'm being a dude. Oh, yeah. They're like, is that something you actually want to do? That seems out of fucking pocket. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. Or I know I've got those friends too. Like, why it is, you know, and I uh what I did was too like I made sure that the people in my life aren't just gonna agree with me all the time. Yes, I'm not gonna just show up to all my stuff because they feel like they need to. I wanted people who, if they gave me their opinion about how they felt like something, sorry, five girlfriends, I should say, sorry, six, six, um, that knew. Sorry, y'all.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but like that knew you were in burnout, that knew you were having such a hard time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they knew. Like, I I had no problem telling them like guys, I'm breaking down, things are not going well. I don't know if I can still be a person or or whatever else. And they immediately were like, listen. And they've always told me actually, even before the burnout, but they're like, now that you're here, you're doing these things, this is this, this is the stuff that you need to like do. This is the like you need to take care of yourself. I'm gonna call you tomorrow. You better have booked that therapy appointment. Don't be shitting out on yourself. Do you need to cry here? Cool, let's go here for a walk and cry. Um, or even just calling because they couldn't be like in close proximity or not not even talking to me for a little while, saying, You're gonna have to figure this shit out. I ain't calling you for a week. Figure out what you did and fix it. Yeah, you don't have to fix it right away, but you need to fucking figure out what you did and realize what you need to do, you know. And I was like, okay, I gotta get my like, I gotta organize my finances, I need to organize my house. I need to throw out everything that I don't use anymore because I was holding on to things from like when I first bought my own house. Because I was always afraid that I would never have a roof over my head. I've gone through that before and I was so afraid of that. So I never put pictures up of me and my son. I never had a space where I actually painted the walls, took care of it, dressed it up nicely. Now my place is full of I love animals as people. But like we do, we do. And like things that like getting into my quirkiness of it and being okay with that. And I always felt like I had to be a certain way. Again, on me, I was the problem. So then being able to question myself and to get curious about who I was, to get curious about why I am doing these things, what do I actually want to get into? You know, Columbia really helped in that. Um, Greece really changed that up. Boston really like cinched it for me at the time.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and then also just like these time away from your day-to-day, from your routine, from the people that are constantly around you. And it was it was yeah, the noise, right? You remove the noise, you went somewhere where you didn't have to be, you didn't have to perform, you didn't show up as a particular person because no one knew who you were, and then you could start to hear yourself.

SPEAKER_00

I get it. Yeah, for me, I had to be unreachable because I live across the street from my studio. I live right across the street. Like it's always in my purview, and yes, you can block off a certain amount of that, but like even living in a smaller space, it's still close enough, right? So I had to be unreachable, unmanageable, I had to be super unmanageable. Yeah, and so my thing is like I have these words on my wall and my my value is like to be unmanageable. Like, it sounds chaotic, but I love it. Because for me to be unmanageable is to really just know that, like, not saying that I'm not gonna like listen if I'm in a job or whatever else, just to be unmanageable in terms of like my outlook on things, to really again stop. And the curiosity is like a big one for me, it's a big value for me. I need curiosity around me, I need to be able to be curious, I need other people to be curious. Not everything is as it is, and so to be able to like really get into good questions, to really get into other ways of like seeing things that aren't harmful and aren't violent for one, um, and to navigate other avenues of how we do things. Yeah, I don't I don't want to live in uh the way I was living before.

SPEAKER_01

Like unmanageable. I get that to everyone. My word was ruthless. I mean I I was like, I need to be ruthless because I uh and again, like the same as that's why I love unmanageable, because both words can seem so wrong and so negative, and so um like I want to be a kind, good person, you want to be a kind, good person. So it was hard for me to be like be ruthless. But because I gave a lot of my power away for a very long time, I was like, I need I read this quote and it said, I've never been so soft and so ruthless in my entire life, and that's exactly how I felt coming out of burnout because I'm like, it's time to be ruthless on behalf of myself. I take care of all of the people that are very close to me. Um, and also people like I don't know. I hope I go out to the community and help. That that's what I want to do. But in order for me to help, I have to be okay and I have to um take care of myself and not let myself go to that point again, you know? So my word is ruthless and your word is unmanageable, and I love those. Yeah, it's like you've never been, I don't know what your other word is, but it for me, it's like I have never been so soft actually and so ruthless at the same time. And it's like I love this version of me. It's what a gift, right? So if you had to, if you had to pair unmanageable with a word, or do you even need to? I don't know, but is is there a word that um has that sweet little balance? Because it's it kind of like makes ruthless so playful for me, and as someone else with a very curious mind, I need to know if there's a way to play with unmanageable for you.

SPEAKER_00

Unmanageable in my joy, unmanageable in my kindness, unmanageable in my purpose.

SPEAKER_01

That's nice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If anybody's listening who's in the middle of burnout, or who's just noticing it, or who's probably like, is this what this feeling is? Because it is so exhausting and it it takes a it takes a bit of a aha moment to figure it out for you. It was also therapy for because I say also because I was also doing therapy to understand what was happening. Um, how would you is there anything we could leave with somebody that's in it right now or that's just noticing it or trying to understand what's happening?

SPEAKER_00

Tell someone. Talk about it with someone. You know. It's not like burnout isn't taking time off. You know, and just like removing things. You have to almost it's a realigning, it's like a puzzle piece. You have to realign things again in a way that they that they build capacity for you, but they also build um interest. Because I feel like at some point burnout gets to a point where we're not interested in how things are aligned. You know, there's not uh there's not like a factor of of things. And so building again, building that joy into your into your life, booking joy. Like if you gotta book it, book it. And also getting really comfortable with doing things on your own, but also with people. So like one way I was able to build trust for myself was like I take myself out to a coffee date, I put on a nice cute dress, I wear whatever I want, I dress up, maybe I wear my headphones, I go, you know, have coffee, or I take myself to dinner. If I did a really good, whatever, busy week, whatever else, I take myself to dinner, I just have dinner. And I read a book at a restaurant while I'm eating. I don't care. I like the book, it's great, you know. Um if you can talk to your support, your supports, family, friends, and everything else, and like really get clear with them on like how you're feeling. It's helpful. It doesn't have to be clear and like, oh, I'm feeling this way. You can just be like, I'm tired, I don't know what's going on, something's happening, I need help. That should hopefully be enough with your group to be like, I can help you. And the people that can help you, that's okay. I think we give this whole like, oh my god, they can't come here for me now. I need to be like, whatever. No, everyone's got different capacity. We don't know what people are in, we don't know how people are doing. Let them go and stick with the people that can and be okay with that. I think we again we want to put the worst into people and then we want to like stick with that, and then we want to make that our entire thing. Whereas, like, then we keep missing the point of like what we need, and so go be a problem.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, go be a problem. I also I would uh I would impart one piece of advice that you already said, and I I just want to highlight it. Um find the people that will call you on your bullshit because I think when you have those people who um who really know you and they're so safe for you to just be at your worst, and when they say something, it's easier to hear it. It's it's hard to hear it because you don't probably want to see what they see. But um I remember one of my girlfriends, um, Lisa, she has this beautiful uh way of being so direct and so soft, but like you cannot unsee something she points out to you. And um I was like, I'm coming out of this, I'm I'm free, I'm I'm good, and everything's amazing, you know, not everything's amazing because I wasn't that I wasn't that uh naive, but I was like, I'm I'm removed from the situation that was causing me a lot of distress. And she was like, No, you're not. I'm like, I'm like, look at look at all the steps I've taken, look what I've removed, look at what I've done, look at the change I've made. And she was like, I'm just telling you what I see, you're still really stuck in it. You need to take one more step out. And I'm like, and and because of that, she really did help me wake up to the last piece of my puzzle, um, and helped me say goodbye to my last studio, actually. This is when I sold movement because I was like, uh, this is the it's worked out the way I needed it to, and I'm doing really well. And she was like, You are no, you're drowning. And um, and I I'm sure I would have come to the decision eventually, but I probably would have been even worse off. And and by the time I decided to sell that last studio, when I finally saw it, uh, I was like, Oh my god, I am literally drowning. And my when I came home because I was on a trip with Lisa when she pointed this out, and I said to David, like, I think I have to let go of the studio on burnt out. And he said, Oh, thank God you can finally see it. Like, honey, what they're there to like. The world sees this, yeah. But like I think So your closest people see it, they see the truth, even though you're you're lying to yourself, right? Because yeah, sometimes we do that. Um, so I would say have those people around you that say maybe not what you want to hear, but it's it's in your best interest, and you know they're for you to listen.

SPEAKER_00

And you know they're your people when your ego doesn't come into play. Like I've had I've had previous films and stuff where like they've told me something, and I was like, Who the fuck are you? You have not even been here and my ego comes into it. Whereas the current and shouldn't say current, sorry, friends, my friends, the girls that I I am with and that I like support and they support me, I have no ego about it. They they know me and they've gotten to know me of like, we know what your house is like, we know that you love this, we know that this is how you operate. We all know our purpose, like in the friend group and stuff. It's never like I expected you to do this. I expected you, I expected you, I expected you, I expected you. There's none of that. Um, and like they have shown me what I want in, you know, if I ever, you know, have another friend or like relationships. They have taught me how like they are, they are my boyfriends. They are my boyfriends, they are like the top of the top, and we had to navigate those relationships with um, they're my boyfriends and they're my girlfriends. They like they help me navigate with ever whatever human I I decide to like date at the time, and then the work relationships and also you know how I navigate my business. Um, they've shown me what care, deep, deep, like getting to know you care, actually asking the questions care, not just showing up because you're having a bad time and letting you vent, like showing up, letting you vent, but then all like girl, we gots to cleanse the space, we gots to take care of these things. We gots to you gotta put your hair up and get shit done. You need to get the fuck out of your pajamas, like just like, yeah, you're right, I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01

Like, it's those people that show you how you are made to be loved because you know that's what we're made, that's what we're here for. We're we're here to experience such deep, deep love and to give such deep, deep love. And when you find the people that teach you how to do that and how much you deserve, well, they're not afraid of losing you.

SPEAKER_00

It's weird, but they're not afraid of losing. Like, I'm just gonna tell you what's up, and you're gonna have to like deal. And they say it in a kind, still kind way, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, thanks for telling me your story or sharing story parts of your story with me and with everybody else who's listening. Everybody are your real treasure to know. Yeah, you too. Thank you. I'm proud of you. Oh proud of you. Thanks. Okay. Um, I'm gonna come and let's have lunch in your town. Yeah! Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Do it.

SPEAKER_01

A pool beach?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's a lovely beach.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, beautiful. Okay. So nice.

SPEAKER_00

Come through.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna text you. All right. I sincerely mean it when I say I um I really do love you. I think you're you're a little gift to know.