What to Do When Spanking Isn’t Working

Scripture commands that we nurture our children in the admonition of the Lord (Eph. 6:4)—but sometimes it just doesn’t seem to work. The panel discusses the place of spanking in the training of children, asking: is it not working, or is it just taking longer than you’d like? They talk about teaching vs atonement…rebellion vs immaturity…changing behavior vs changing the heart…and alternatives to spanking that often render it unnecessary.

Download the episode MP3 here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2520780/episodes/18877554-what-to-do-when-spanking-isn-t-working.mp3

New kids and family podcast from Generations - TeachMeTheFaith.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

And welcome friends to Generations and another episode of Discipleship for Dads with Bill Roach, Todd Strasser, and Danny Craig. Yours truly Kevin Swanson. And today, uh, this is going to be interesting. This is this is applicable to anybody who is raising their children in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord Jesus Christ, especially those raising their children in the admonition of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that word admonition means to correct. It's a correction that could involve the rod. It's a correction that could involve a rebuke. Uh some some form of child, you're doing the wrong thing, and now I need to correct you. Now that's that's what admon admonition is, as defined in Ephesians 6 and verse 4. Now, the question is what to do when spanking isn't working, and perhaps some discipline disagreements uh with between husband and wife. Okay, so what to do when spanking isn't working? Now, let's just take it from the outset. Ineffective spanking, child's laughing. Okay, there's there's no fear of God before their eyes. One of the questions I like to ask immediately to mom and dad is do you fear God? I do think a God-centeredness is important in the home. So that may be an issue. The parent may be angry, uh, personally offended by the child, therefore responding in anger, or there may be no firmness at all. So it's kind of this um very apathetic, half-hearted, not really connecting kind of discipline. But what what is this that makes spanking ineffective? Let's go to Danny. Danny's in the middle of it. He's now the expert. You are the expert. So we're gonna refer these questions to you, Danny. Um is it six children? Five. Five. It feels like six, seven days sometimes. Okay. So when spanking is ineffective, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Well, Kevin, you preached a sermon a few months ago that was really helpful. And uh you helped clarify that spanking is a a method of teaching. What we're doing is we're teaching and we're not punishing. Uh our children are not atoning for their sins in the spanking situation. Right. Correction is teaching. Correction is teaching. Absolutely. And and so what am I teaching them? Well, I'm I'm I'm teaching them uh that there's a law, and and it better be that I'm teaching them that it's God's law uh that matters. And the second thing I'm teaching them is that sin hurts and there are consequences to sin. So I think those are the two two big things. The third thing, though, I'm also teaching them that I have to obey God. And so um, those are those are some of the key things that that I'm teaching them. And then then and also that I love them because the Bible says that uh he who does not spank his child does not love his children. So those are some things that I'm teaching them in the midst of the rock.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

So big, big question is do I love my children? Now, some have responded in saying what the key, the whole key to mayor parenting is to be calm and peaceful. Well, actually, that's not not the the key. The key is to love and to submit to God and to maintain a God-centered home. That is, we're not standing up for self, we're not standing up for the child, it's not a child-centered home. This is a God-centered home. We're standing up for God in this home. So, you know, theologically, let's get this right. I'm not the God of the home. My kids are not the God of the home. That's right. God is God over this home. That's Todd.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yeah. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's where it's got to start. It's like, why am I why am I even in a position to do this to this other person? To to to correct this other person. So you have to recognize your role. And a lot of this could be viewed as am I stewarding well the calling God's given me? Do I love this person? Yes. Do I love this person? Or I'm just gonna let them do whatever they want to do. Okay, now how am I? I gotta do that according to God's ways, God's how He's laid out for me, which I know is central to it's God. I need to fear God, but I have to do it in the context of the gospel, of correcting with gentleness and meekness. Am I approaching that way? And am I ultimately just approaching in love?

SPEAKER_03 4:18

That should just frame it all. And the humility and gentleness and meekness we're talking about, and this is really important, is that we are to be meek and humble before the mighty hand of God. And this idea that I'm supposed to be meek and humble before this child, that's actually not what the Bible says. The Bible says to humble yourself before the mighty hand of God. Again, it's a God-centered home, not a child-centered home. And uh this is a massive, massive philosophical worldview difference between the man-centered, child-centered home and the God-centered home. So let's make sure we've got our theology, our religion straight. Maybe you've got the wrong religion in your home. So let's make sure we get the right religion first. Remember peace. Peace is the goal.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Hebrews 12 talks about peace being the goal. But the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

That's right. You can't have peace without righteousness. Right. It's a reconciliation. It's a both and. Okay. Jesus was the Prince of Peace.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

But according to Roman or Hebrews 12, he used discipline to bring the peace. Right, right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

And the peaceable fruit of righteousness. That is faith and obedience. And the faith and obedience is going to bring about that peacefulness. Was it trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus? I still like that. But to trust and obey. Yeah. We sing that. That was one of our go-to songs in the midst of discipline.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah. You know, you mentioned again the question at the outset: what does it look like when spanking is not working? When spanking isn't working when it's not God's law that's upheld. Spanking isn't working when they're not learning from the spanking that sin hurts. Spanking isn't working when they don't know that I'm obeying God. And lastly, when they don't know that I love them. So I think if those are the goals, spanking isn't working when we're not accomplishing one of those four things.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah. And there's got to be a sobriety to it. Like, you know, there the ditches would probably be you're angry, that's not good. And then there's the past passivity, like, well, I just I'm supposed to do this. No, there's like this sobriety of this is a this is an important thing for me, you know, as a parent to engage in, but also to communicate to the child, like we're living before God. We're living before the face of God. You are, I am, we're doing this together. So let's let's come like with integrity before God and honesty.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

And let me create a scenario that I've seen before, and that is where, and I think I've participated in this as well, because you know, a child's out of control. And so my or anybody's inclination, I think, is first to grab the child. Now, the question at this point is am I exhibiting a I will control the situation as the sovereign God of the universe right here, right now. Or am I going to submit to God in this? And I think this grabbing the child and just marching them out in this highly controlling way, oftentimes what happens is the child pushes back is, oh, I get this game. This game is a question of who gets to be sovereign. So, you know, will dad be God or will I be God instead of dad submitting himself to God himself? In other words, this this control can be an exhibition of a sinful anger. I'm being guilty of that. And I'm just putting this on the table. I think it's easy to do that because what you have is a child who's out of a control. I'm going to get them back into control by sovereignly controlling the situation. Time to confess a little bit. A little bit, yeah. Sidle up to the microphone for a second.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

And you know, different children are different in the way they respond to these things. And that's part of this whole process of spanking that works. Don't love that term, but we have to calibrate to the different dynamics of our individual children. And God used one particular child or is using one particular child to show me this control. And I and I learned that the way I pick her up is very much going to determine how that spanking session goes. Even the calibration of the grip. How how tightly I hold on to her off. Okay. Okay. Um, I learned that it didn't really matter with the other kids that much. But with her, if she senses any kind of dad is the policeman in this home uh man, that that doesn't go well. But if I come in and I gently pick her up and gently hold her to me, and then firmly take her in uh and do what needs to be done, by God's grace, um, you know, that sets a different trajectory. Big things happen.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

At the end of the day, you gotta love her. Yeah. You gotta love your kids. That's God's working on me in that process. That's a big one. That's good. And so one of the reasons why discipline's not working is that we're just not loving our kids. Right. And I think we have to repent of that, seek God's, you know, love, understand God's love for us. Because He loves us, He disciplines us too. And then love our children that way. Um What are the other reasons why discipline isn't working in the home? Now, i here's one other thing I want to say is that you know what, you can't fix it in one sitting. I think you figured that out by now. Uh but this could be a 10-year and I think to dig in and say, you know what, we're just gonna commit to this in the over the long run. We're gonna shinantom. That's you know, uh Deuteronomy 6.7 word, you shall teach your children shenantom diligently as you sit in the house. It's the idea of polishing the sword over and over and over again. You don't break the will, you don't, you know, I'm gonna fix you, I'm gonna break your will right here and right now. That's not scriptural. Actually, you can't find that in the Bible. It's some kind of a humanistic term that comes out of behavioral modification. Oh, and and we're just not that. We're not humanistic psychologists here. We are biblical. And uh the biblical approach is to be willing to, over the long run, just work this thing. Now, that doesn't mean we ignore instances in which there's rebellion. And I think on the other hand, uh we want to discipline our children shakar, and that that word is early and write on it, stay on it, don't let it go. So we're consistent, there's a consistency about it, but there's also a willingness to dig in for the long haul that this consistency actually might have to drag out for quite some time here.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

And that's because I I realize I'm not the one doing the change. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so to your question, the the other big reason is faithlessness.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

If I'm coming into this thinking that there's a one-to-one between you know, my administration of spanking and change in the heart, that's that ain't gonna happen. That's way messed up. So I have to have, I have to bathe each session in prayer and between sessions in prayer, a constant crying out to God, Lord, I'm I'm doing the teaching you're calling me to do, but only you can impart this message to the heart of my child. That may happen today, and that may take 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

You know, at the at the risk of sounding heretical here. What you just described, when when you were just saying all those things of how we're to discipline our children, we take our time, we we it's a long process. I I I they're pictured, this is what the triune God was talking about when they had to deal with me. That they were saying, now, how are we gonna deal with Bill? Yeah, well, we don't want to break his will. We want to do this, we want to do that.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Well, he's gonna he's gonna make you willing the day of his power, but but that's gonna be a process of working it through.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

It's gonna it's it was long term. It was it was loving discipline, right? Don't let things go. You're gonna have to bring them back in his life. And and that's what I was picturing. And and and really, that's what God is telling us to do with our children. Why don't you discipline them like I discipline you?

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah. And and you know what to do that to not have the one time, but to one and done. Yeah, one and done to not have that, it's gonna take looking with hope for the growth and and then affirming that, right? I mean, it you know, it's because it's gonna, if it's gonna take 10 years, we're gonna have to remain hopeful that God is working, because the sanctification process, yeah, it doesn't happen overnight in one time. It it does take 10 years, it takes our whole lives. God continues to do that. So we should be, as parents, I think, looking for that and affirming that and encouraging that and calling that out and looking for that growth and then and then praising God for it.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

It's not working. Spanking's not working. What do you do? Crank it up, make it harder, make it tougher. I I think that's the way some will respond to this. Some yeah, not necessarily is what you say. Because every situation is different.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Again, what are we doing? We're teaching. So I'm gonna ask myself, why is the teaching not getting through? And is there something about me? Um, but we also, is there something different about this child? I I it always cracks me up when people, they, they, these grown parents, they reflect on their kids and they're like, you know, we did all of our kids parent to them all the same way, but this one turned out differently. And I think to myself, that's the problem. You did it all the same way. Yeah, but your kids aren't all the same. And so you have to take it a different customized approach. So, what is different about this child than God brought us?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Go ahead. Yeah, no, it may be working too, and you're not seeing it. Sometimes one of the best encouragements to me was somebody coming into my house and interacting with one of my children that they hadn't seen for a while, and then start to say, wow, you know, you're really doing better in this area, and you're changing in this area. And there are things that I was just focused on the way they weren't changing and getting better. Sometimes it it's helpful to have somebody else tell you what you're missing. And it actually is working, but it's just working gradually and slowly. And we want it to be, it's not that it's not working, but we want it to work fast.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

And that's that's the relational component you're talking about, Dan. Do I know my children and know what they're different, how they're different, so that I can know how to love them or correct them as we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

And and the different situations may call for different teaching tools. And I think that's a big thing. Is we we have to realize that spanking is not the only teaching tool in our in our toolbox. Now, I think there's there's teaching tools people use that are just really unwise. You know, relational isolation is just generally uh in in most cases, not a wise path unless you have a hardened fool.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

But occasionally you want to send them to bed.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Sometimes we say bed material.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

You're you you're your bed material. We need to get you to bed. That's right. Do not pass go, do not collect$200, go directly to bed. So we have that one.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And spanking right now, when you're way overtired, is just provoking this child to do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Right. And sending them to bed is not a punishment. No, no, no. It's just the next thing to do. You need some rest. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

And I would also encourage uh, you know, not to have this sort of odd, strict sort of chart about you send in this way, you get this many spankings, this that totally avoids the organic relational nature of. I mean, they may have done this extremely egregious sin, but maybe they're repentant. And so you're gonna address, you know, right over there humble and you're gonna address that differently, right? And be it so we just can't do this machine thing. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

That's right. So we don't need the penance chart here. No, no, no, no. It's it's good for institutions, huge institutions that are rooted in Rome, but for the rest of us families, so we we're gonna have to adjust it for every unique situation. That's right. What are the other tools? Danny, what are the other tools? I mean, let's let's let's brainstorm this a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Well, uh what else do we do here? I think it's helpful to understand the difference between rebellion and habitual immaturity. And what I mean by that is that our kids are fool, are they immature. And so they may have habits, especially if we haven't trained them well. And that's that's the other big conversation we're not having here, which is proactive training. Like, how do I proactively teach my children not to be lazy? I don't, I don't, I don't just spank laziness out of them. I'm setting up routines, I'm coaching them, I'm giving them rewards, I'm helping them form habits of of discipline. So I think you need to ask yourself as a parent, if if you haven't done the proactive training, you can't just spank your way out of that hole. Yeah, you gotta do a lot of proactive, positive training. That's big time, positive training. Yes. And so, but let's say, let's say a child is, they they just have a really bad habit. Well, uh, you know, sometimes you get into this sort of pattern of spank, you know, it just kind of almost reinforces the the pat the pattern. You have to ask yourself, what how can we interrupt this pattern a little bit? Is there something that will get their attention in a different way? Maybe it's hey, you know what? You were lazy today, the Bible says you don't you don't work, then you don't eat. And so uh we're we're not having lunch today. That may be a better teaching teaching mechanism in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

And this proactive approach can take place on any given day where it must be. Okay, if the child gets up and you can see the trajectory is not going to be good. It's just they're whining. The wrong side of the bed. There's this complaining issue, whatever. Before we get to the point where we're up to DEF CON too on this, let's let's just set the silent child aside and let's have dad talk to him. Right. There's something about dad also that can be really help with the proactive element. Yeah. And just just pull them aside, say, okay, now I'm checking checking your attitude here. It's not quite where it needs to be. And we're talking about a four-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old. Um, just just have a little a short conversation, talk to him, kind of give him a little coaching, a little, you know what? God is good. Hey, you got new shoes. I noticed you have new shoes. Where'd you get those new shoes? You know, yeah, just uh directing the attention of a song. You have to sing a song together. Yeah. This happened with one of my grandkids uh uh a couple days ago. And it just it was amazing how just a conversation with grandpa made all the difference in the world. I was actually shocked. I was like, we went from bad attitude to absolutely super kind, super loving to siblings within like 10 minutes, no need for discipline, just a conversation with grandpa.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

And part of that is just the reminder that we are loved by God, sure, but by you know, he's put around by by the family to think that we are loved because some of that some of that rebellion and some of that pushback can just be an isolated sort of uh I know what's best, and it's better to enter into that relationship so precious refocusing as well.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Okay, we're gonna do this now. You know, this okay, you can kind of see that there's this simmering unkindness, okay, you know, argumentation, grabbing each other's toy, kind of scenario that's developing. Mom steps in and says, you know what we're gonna do right now? We're gonna do a project together. The minute it's a pattern interrupt, it's a pattern interrupt. There's something about that that helps a lot. Yes. So other tools. I just we're brainstorming tools here. Anyone else have tools? Things to do, things to teach, what methods of teaching, methods of admonishment, methods of correction.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Well, uh Solomon talks a lot about natural consequences. You know, if you if you head down this road, you know, these are gonna be the end results, or you know, the life uh life is hard for the sinner, right? The the rebellious person. So sometimes you let natural consequences uh take their course, like you you mentioned, Danny, about you know, you're lazy, you don't work, you don't don't eat. I mean, that's a biblical command. But other ones you just you let the natural course take take it take its way out, and uh and and you use those natural consequences. But I I I think one of the things we we need to be careful about too is I mean Satan always um takes good things, and the rod is a good gift, and he tries to figure out a way to to destroy it or to make it not look as good as it is. And I think if you if some you know, like a husband and wife disagreeing about whether they should even spank may be a result of of somebody having a very bad experience with the rod. And I think it's it's an issue we need to to kind of talk about too. What do you think about it?

SPEAKER_03 21:21

In other words, there was physical abuse in the background of their spouse.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Right. And it was used in sometimes in a r uh what would have been a righteous way. They're like they're trying to say this is the the right thing to do, that I'm supposed to beat you.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Even though you're screaming at me and even though you're bleeding, this is righteous, and there's nothing righteous about that. I think we have to we have to address some of those issues too.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Yeah, which means you may have to limit the use of it for a period of time.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I I think that that is one of it, and make sure it's clearly biblical. What what what are all the elements that come into play here with with the use of the rod? You're gonna have to re-redirect everything, and you you're gonna have to retrain uh a spouse on why the rod is still a biblical use, even though it was used wrongly in your background.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

What about warnings? What about warning children? I mean, they're all warnings in scripture. You go that way, you're going to hell.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

That's just what I was appropriate at times. I think it definitely is. Because there's uh three tools I could think of other than one is um that is warning. And you knew you can actually do that at different ages. Sometimes that's actually helpful at a little bit older ages, kind of maybe past the spanking age, is the warning of the true consequences of life. It's important. The other what tool I was thinking of there there has been situations I just don't know what to do, and I'm like, and I Just start praying. Because I, you know, it's like we really need, like, my, you know, me pulling the child, maybe I can't do this, pulling him away to do. I'm just gonna go to prayer, you know, open, you know, out loud prayer for everybody to hear. The other thing that I've done is um is is just shared my own testimony, like, you know, like pull pull them aside and say, I struggled with this too. Like, I I understand, you know, and it can really melt hearts a little bit and go, oh, okay, like I understand. And then and confess. So, you know, just that connection is so important.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Now, what happens when that daughter, that son is past the spanking age? So let's touch on this for a second because uh consequences, right? Consequences.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

And and restricting freedom?

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Restricting freedom. That's that's a big one for for me. Because they may be handling the cell phone wrongly. Right. Therefore, we're gonna pull that back for the next two months.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And remember, sin is enslaving. And you you teach the child when you you want to delve in sin, you're gonna enslave yourself. So what you do when you restrict freedoms, you're you're making them slave-like in that sense where you're saying, hey, you continue down the sinful path. This is this is what it looks like. You you don't have the freedom in Christ to do all these things. So you're restricting their freedom to show them that the path that they're on will lead to an ultimate real enslave to sin.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Danny, is there any value to the kids are fighting over that toy or that little bike or that whatever it was? And you say, you know what, we're just gonna put this aside for the time being. Um because it obviously it's turning into an idol or it's you know something that you're all fighting over. Are there those sorts of things that you guys would do with the little ones?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Yeah, one of the things my mom and dad, and particularly my mom was big on this, is try to set your children up for success. So she would talk a lot about, you know, give them the boundaries that are relative to their level of maturity. Okay. So, you know, a a three-year-old, they they can be successful in the play yard. That's about the the range in which they can, they have the wisdom to make wise choices, letting them run wild all around the house. They're not they're not ready for that, right? So that's just a practical example. So for older children, too, um, you know, what what is the range of freedom in which they're most likely to be successful? And I'm gonna try to set them up for success.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

And there might be points at which you short up. You actually bring it back in saying, hey, you know what, we can't do the 40 foot radius right now. We're pulling it back to 35 feet. That's right. And you're okay with that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Cause because again, we're we're we're trying to where's their level of maturity? Uh, where what what's the range of freedom in which they're most likely to succeed relative to that maturity?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, that's very important. Yeah, as long as as long as we recognize that in all those things, we do those things in faith because it's it's very important. Like we want we want to ensure that we're giving the children not just those moments of according to their maturity, which is super important, but also pointing them back to Christ each time and how they can grow in Him and trust in Him.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

And you have to be flexible. Too. Right. You have to be willing to make some changes. Danny, you know, you mentioned about how each child is different, you have to to uh discipline them differently. You may also have to change discipline manners in in each stage of their life. Well, work for for a little one at three or four may be different at seven or eight. Yes, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

So encourage a parent whose six or seven or eight-year-old son is uh you know, lying, stealing, deceiving. I mean, it's pretty intense. There's there's some pretty hardcore sins happening. And and the discipline's not working. Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

What would you say to him, Todd? The discipline's not working, yeah. And and and it I think you examine all those things. Examine your heart, your leadership in the home, you know, the spiritual nature of the home. Is is there committing to God? Is there the fear of God? Is there trusting in his word? Is there prayer before God? Um, and then also, yeah, are you are you going about that rightly? Are you are you are you are you shepherding the heart rightly in this context of correcting? But I don't think it's, you know, some I think I this is what I failed in early on. I said, I just my job is to almost be the policeman, like make sure that they're on the right track and correct and you know, just keep the guardrails up. But it's it's about the affirming, it's the uh encouraging. It's not just warning when they when they maybe sin. It's constantly pointing. Do you see that, child? Do you see that? Don't you see how God, what God's doing here? Do you see those consequences over there? So it's that it really is just walking along.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Be hopeful, look for the cloud the size of a man's hand, maybe some hope here. Uh so let's as be as hopeful as we possibly can be, especially in conversations with spouses on those. At 10 o'clock at night, let's not give up and say this is hopeless. Let's but prayer, I think, is key because at some point you come face to face with the impossibility of changing that child's heart. You're not going to do it by the rod. You're not. It's it's it's the rod is there, the teaching's there, the admonishment is there to keep the law slash gospel in front. Yes, child, you need Jesus. This is why the Son of God, the creator of the universe, has come down, taken the nails and the hands and the feet, suffered, bled, and died on the cross because there's a little boy in this house that just cannot be good. This is an impossibility operating here. But even as a father, we have to fall down on our knees before God, raise our hands to the air and say, God, have mercy on my poor family. Yes. There just has to be a point at which that man's got to break before God and say, God, you're the only hope for us. Jesus, help us here.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Don't discount getting help, right? You see a couple in the church that has some children that have done well, you can go and ask them. Or you go to the elders and ask them to pray uh for this child. Absolutely. That that brings gravitas to the situation. You know, a child brought before the elders. Um, it it shouldn't just always be about gravitas, but it it does, you know, that this is a serious issue, and we need some help and some prayer. Don't discount that.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

In that scenario that you mentioned, in addition to what you all have said, you really need to probably go into overdrive on building that relationship. That child needs to know it's fun to live life with dad in fellowship. Yeah. Try to find as many positive relational building moments. Yeah. Because you might have to go into overdrive on the discipline too, but you don't want to go into overdrive on the discipline without the relationship. And without going into overdrive on those relational opportunities. I think the thing maybe I didn't say enough earlier is those spanking situations are very much an opportunity for bringing the gospel to your child. Absolutely. Every time. That is absolutely something we're teaching as they come to see the consequences of sin and their own ability to keep God's law.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Uh, we're we're praying with them. We're we're uh teaching them to pray, Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. The only thing that can help you now is Jesus. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Uh let's render hope. Let's render hope. Bill, you've been in the middle of this. You're the expert. I've seen you hang in there. You're still hopeful, you're still looking to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

So it's not an easy path. It's not, you know, you're really entrusting that God has your good in store. But some days are more difficult than others. They're literally you have nothing but crying out to God for help. And and and sometimes it causes a stress between a husband and a wife when when a child is wayward and you're you're all you're kind of trying to come up with a new idea, and maybe you disagree with the the other spouse. It causes a tension between the people.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

I think you need two people on their knees now.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Not just one. I think you need two people on their knees looking up, not looking at each other, not blaming each other, not looking at the kid. It's not gonna help.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Two people on their knees looking to God. Final word, Todd.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

It's an important point, you know, is as we as we walk through these challenges with our children. You know, since we're speaking to dads here, we we need to love our wives to this too. It could be stressful to them uh in a different way than it is to us. So we need to take ensure we're not just focused on the child and how to correct their, but how is our wife's r walking through this? Is that stressful to them? Is is there does she have other concerns? Are we listening to her on this? You know, just walking in that oneness through this.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

And as we've said many times, God's working on me. Yes, yes, as I'm working on the kids. Yes, always very important. I'm the project. Absolutely. You're the project, dad. Mom, you're the project. Yeah, and and God's the dad working on us, even as we work with our children.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

You know, when you mine you you don't mine for silver, you mine for other things, and silver's the byproduct. Yeah. And some even say with gold is the same way, too. It's actually just a byproduct of mining for something else. And that's the way God works in us, too. He's he's always bringing out something special while he's doing something else.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

It's good. It's a great place to land on this edition of Generations Discipleship for Dads. So glad you tuned in with us. Uh, friends, if you've got any kind of inputs, additions, subtractions, ideas for us to discuss, it's uh mail at generations.org. And this is Kevin Swanson, as well as Todd Strasser, Bill Roach, and Danny Craig. Inviting you back again next time as we continue this discussion on Discipleship for Dads. This has been a production of the Generations Media Network. For more information, go to generations.org/slash media.