The Man in the Iron Cage Has 4 Billion Fans

John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress features a man who has lost all hope of salvation, but he is alive and well in the lyrics of the most popular Christian song ever made. Kevin is joined by Danny to ask: what does it mean when billions identify with despair rather than resurrection? And what does Scripture say music is actually for?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

This is Kevin Swanson with Generations, and today the most popular and the most downloaded song in the history of Christian music surpassed 4 billion global streams. Yes, I said 4 billion global streams, and 1 billion on Spotify. It's Monster by Skillet. Now, John Cooper is the band front. He's the standout biblically orthodox Jesus talk and amazing guy of the CCM world, touted by all the Christian media organizations as the guy. So of course I'm curious about this amazing Christian band and its hugely positive impact upon the world in this massive hit. So I watched the YouTube video and I was utterly horrified. It was it was spiritually, emotionally, and mentally oppressive. My wife I made the mistake of letting her watch it, and uh not good. Not good for the next six hours of her life. It was a flashback to your worst nightmare, a glimpse into the mind of the mentally insane. It was just hellish, uh no fear of God before their eyes. At least the the the message presented and the uh the actor uh providing something of a a message to the audience. Now you need to understand, I I think I've been fairly tolerant of the Larry Normans, Randy Stonehills, Keith Greens, and Chris Tomlins of the world. I I DJed at the KGFT Santa Barbara CCM station a number of years ago, a few other stations in my early years. And this hit song monster is the testimony of the man in the iron cage, but to the nth degree, it's a visit to hell, it's will chill you to the bone. It's a revisitation of of this, and they cried aloud and cut themselves according to their manner with knives and lancets till the blood gushed out upon them. Or a revisitation of something like this. He had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces, neither could anyone tame him, and always, night and day, he was in the mountains in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. So these are the only parallels that I can think of. If if you want a parallel to what you would witness in this YouTube CCM video called Monster. So acting out the part of this man actually does no good without redemption. In best case, it's the expression of John Bunyan's Man in the Iron Cage. But the billion downloads indicate an identification with this man. The billion downloads relate to him to form a relationship with him and settle down with the man in the iron cage. There's got to be a massive disconnect here, folks. There's something wrong. Something very wrong, something extremely wrong. It reminded me of David Wilkerson's assessment in 1987 where he was attending a big CCM concert. He wrote of it later. He said, at first I couldn't believe what I was seeing on stage. I said aloud, this can't be happening at a Christian festival. They can't be doing this to my Jesus. Suddenly I was on the ground weeping. I was horrified by what I saw. I saw the demonic images rising from the stage. It was an over overt manifestation of Satan, worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York. I stood to my feet, literally shaking with the fear of God, consumed with a sense of his holy wrath against such wickedness. I rushed into the crowd, crying at the top of my voice, Ichabod, the glory of the Lord has departed, Ichabod. I ran through the crowd, pushing aside chairs, weeping, shouting at the top of my voice, Ichabod, stop, God is grieved. Well, as we all know, that was the end of David Wilkerson. Nobody paid attention to him after that. Um I saw the newsboys perform, but this would have been in 2014 with that homosexual fellow who d does the lead singing, walked out of that about two minutes into it. Now, this, so how do we make sense of any of this? I I I I had to think about this for a little bit. Now, as as many of my listeners know, I've resisted calling all this rock and roll of the devil for one reason, it's too simplistic. Also doesn't amount to much of a biblical rational argument. And for another reason, that if you did something like that, you'd turn off 99.9% of all Christians in America. I certainly wouldn't want to lose my listenership. Nonetheless, it seems that Christians need to be extremely thoughtful about cultural expression in an apostate age. And so that's why my book, The Tattoo Jesus, which is just my first shot at trying to analyze pop culture from a biblical perspective. But a couple of things here. There is within the Christian church a heightened state of deception. Just because we are facing a massive apostasy, the largest apostasy in the history of the Christian church. So I think we have to be realistic about that. Seems to me that we need to be even more on our game when it comes to discernment concerning worldviews and culture, which, by the way, is the externalization of a worldview. But there is this internal contradiction between what is professed to be a worldview on Sunday and a cultural expression of another worldview. Culture is worldview externalized. But there are two worldviews battling for the soul of the apostate. On the one hand, they claim to believe in a Christian world and life view on resurrection life on Sunday, but their heart commitment has attached itself to an apostate worldview, and this is what they would rather live out in their cultural expressions. Okay, now secondly, the contradiction often plays out between mode and message. They will use Christian lyrics that might hold on to the awesomeness of God and the fear of God, and then choose a mode that contradicts the message, as in, some of you have heard me perform, I've You've Got To Rev Rev Rev Rev Reverence the Old Man in the Sky. Okay, put that to a rather irreverent tune. The contradiction is intentional and deceptive. Okay, now thirdly, there's also a definitive lack of clarity in art forms intended for varying and contradicting interpretations and reactions. Or it could be just splattered paint on a floor, just more chaos and meaninglessness in a postmodern world, all for four billion downloads from people well on their way into a postmodern hell. The disjointed words, the disjointed lack of melody and harmony are intended for a polytheistic world, certainly a loss of the unity in particulars, beautifully combined within the Trinitarian worldview. And then fourthly, there is this antinomian impulse in modern apostate Christianity that allows for the use of any and all symbols, the adoption of every form of cultural degradation, and the incorporation of it into the sacred. So we move from the unwillingness to sanctify the secular with the sacred, but rather to pervert the sacred with the most perverted forms of the secular. As in the youth group leader who attends a secular hard rock concert and notices that everybody's extending the middle finger in a rude, sexually connoted sort of gesture. He immediately comes back into the youth group meeting on Sunday and introduces his rude gesture that he picked up in the secular concert into the Christian worship service, completely ignoring the connotations. Then he suggests to the pastor that this would be a good way to express the fear of God in this highly irreverent form of music and hand gesture. Such cultural conformances form the highest form of insanity or blasphemy. I'm not sure I can tell the difference between insanity or blasphemy, but it would be helpful if the Sons of Thunder would double check the spirit they are of. Now, symbols mean things. The things offered to idols still connote the heathen sacrifice. This is the whole point of the food offered to idols issue that is brought into the cultural expressions and the cultural discernment required of Christians. The connotations are still there in the minds of entertainers and observers. And just in case you missed the latest trashy hit from this outstanding Christian band, A Beautiful Little Piece, called Scream, just released in 2026. And here it is. Trying to remember who I was before the chains. Okay, I would just like to call John Cooper and his friends to repent of this message, this mode, this form, this worldview, this cultural expression, all of it. We are at the hind end of the Christian age in the Western world. This is what it looks like. The Gen Z generation has reached the point of complete apostasy. Only 1% retain a biblical worldview. 56% still think they are Christians, and only 1% think like and believe like Christians. That's because of these cultural forms. Their worldview is formed by a thousand cultural inputs like monster, more so than Pastor Billy Bob's 45-minute sermon in Sunday morning and Sunday evening services. Oh, wait, Sunday evening service was canceled 20 years ago. So today, worldviews and music. I want to talk Dionysian dominance, disconnection of concepts, diversion, catharsis, and the man in the iron cage. And Danny Craig joins me on this one. So Danny, we're never immune from controversy. And so here we are again discussing the question of music. And uh and music can be a bit of a sacred cow, and it can be something that uh people have attached their hearts to and a very you know emotional and uh and strong commitment. And so yeah, our our goal on this program is not to identify any particular artist and say this artist is all bad or this artist is all good. Uh I'm sure John Cooper's done a lot of good things in his life, uh, but it seems to me that the ability to discern culture is uh is very much curtailed amongst our Christian brothers and sisters today. And I think we need to be discussing this because after all, it is the cultural expressions that are bringing about such disintegration of the Christian world and life view. I believe it is the cultural expression that's doing more of the damage than anything else. I mean, even more so than than Charles Darwin and Frederick Nietzsche, you know, doing his lectures at the local Christian college or community college or high school. You know, that this is this is where worldviews are are colliding stronger than anywhere else. And and yes, we enter into this discussion, we're going to have some spiritual pushback. The principle and powers are not going to be happy with this program.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, Kevin, I think part of the reason for that is that I believe that a significant number of Christians today actually don't believe that certain kinds of culture need to be discerned. And I think if you went and asked uh a hundred Christians, do you think that the musical forms themselves have moral implications? I would, I would, I would, I would wager the majority would say no. Uh it's just the lyrics that have moral implications. But as you said, uh culture is religion externalized, and that applies both to the lyrics and to the music and to all forms of culture.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Yeah. Now let's talk about the song Monster, and you've got uh John Cooper's uh interpretation of what he's trying to convey in this. And again, you know, granted, he's got the right to maintain his interpretation and his reception of the message, but of course, the rest of us have our interpretations, uh, and they tend to be varied. Um I believe unbelievers have varied uh translations and interpretations of the message as well. Uh certainly there is a wide suave of people that are downloading this song, which is the number one most downloaded CCM song in the history of Christianity.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, he he he says monster is a song about something that the Bible refers to as the sinful nature or the old self. This is basically a means that now that I have been saved and forgiven and am a new creation in Christ, why do I sometimes still feel like a monster inside? I think we can all relate to that. This song is saying that there is a secret side to me that struggles, but I know it's not the real me. The song says, Why won't somebody come and save me from this, make it end?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Well, you know, at the end of the day, we have an obligation as Christians to approach this issue by faith and a sense of the victory of Jesus Christ. And that's why Romans 7 ends with, thanks be to God, it gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. If you can't get to the last verse of that chapter, you're stuck in this uh horrible condition, which is not godly, it's not right, it's not full of faith, it's full of faithlessness. And so that's that's a problem that I have. And then he he doesn't even allow for the fact that that anybody's going to come to save him from the condition. You know, why won't anybody come? No, no, the chapter ends with thanks be to the God that gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. And so so we have the victory. And what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his only son, the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. So that's the way the story ends, biblically speaking. Yeah, but not so in that song. And so it's a defeatistic, uh, faithless song for the Christian. For, but it's also the man who's stuck with no possibility of redemption. That's that's the way the song is presented. And I believe it is a good expression of the man in the iron cage, where in Pilgrim's Progress at the house of the interpreter, the pilgrim comes before uh this scene of this man who has lost all hope for any salvation. That, you know, nobody has come to deliver me. There's no possibility of anybody coming to deliver me. And so what happens in the four billion downloads is that way too many come into fellowship with the man in the iron cage. And this is the way much of modern music runs and much of literature. It presents man in his sinful, depraved condition without any possibility of redemption. Roger Miller's Dang Me does the same thing. You think of uh Margaritaville, where there's no possibility. It's I'm just sitting here because it's my own uh damn fault, quote unquote. And uh so so there's no possibility of redemption. I'm just sitting here in this total lack of redemption and sinful state and depraved state. It's not for the Christian to convey the message in this way. Uh we we, yes, we must correct the unfruitful works of darkness, but certainly have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. And in this case, the man is playing the part of this man in the iron cage, where there is no possibility of redemption for him.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And I think that leads us to ask the question well, why should we be listening to music at all, right, Kevin? I mean, once we we have songs, we have music, God gave us this art form. It originated from the mind of God. Certainly he had a purpose for it when he gave us this gift. And so I think it's helpful to go and look at scripture and say, well, where does where does music show up? And and what are some of the applications of music that we should at least determine our priorities for God?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Well, Colossians 3, 16 and 17 is one of the key passages where it says, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. So there's three things involved. The first of which is that the word of Jesus Christ, the promises of Jesus, the salvation of Jesus, is dwelling in us richly through the conveyance of the music. So I believe that needs to be the case. Secondly, uh, we teach and admonish one another. So we actually call each other uh to to correct our thinking and to correct our behavior by the music that we we provide, uh, as in bringing the commandments of God into the music. Uh, we also sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord, so that's a uh a heart of thanksgiving and gratitude and thankfulness. Now, is that conveyed? Are any of those three things conveyed in this uh release called Monster? Not beginning a moment. Well, the the difficulty, of course, with with I think the more fundamental problem that I dealt with my opening comments was that there is this allowance for varying receptions and interpretations of the music. And this is extreme postmodernism. It allows for you to have your truth and me to have my truth. You know, that's true for you, and this is true for me. And so the music is presented this way.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

It's by virtue of it being open-ended in the very end of it.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

That's right. And uh to open-end the whole interpretation of it. Yeah, I mean, would the average unbeliever say, well, that looks like the you know, the un uh the old man that's Romans 7, where's Jesus? We're we're we're going, there's a new man maybe there somewhere, but we're all going to uh uh submit to the old man, the old man's dominance in uh in my life. Yeah. Is is is the unbeliever gonna interpret it this way, or is anybody gonna interpret it this way? It it seems to me that this is, you know, these are lyrics that present uh a man who's in the iron cage. We could read some of the lyrics for for those who are interested. The secret side of me I never let you see. I keep it caged, but I can't control it, so stay away from me. The beast is ugly. I feel the rage, I just can't hold on. It's scratching on the walls in the closet in the halls. It comes awake, and so I can't control it. It sounds like a demon possession. That's that's one interpretation. I think that's an obvious uh interpretation. My secret side I keep hit under lock and key. I keep it caged, but I can't control it because if I let him out, he'll tear me up and break me down. That sounds a lot like the man of the Gatherens. This uh I feel it deep within, it's just within my skin. I must confess that I feel like a monster. I feel like a monster. I feel like a monster hiding in the dark, its teeth are razors sharp. There's no escape for me. It wants my soul, it wants my heart. There's no escape, there's no redemption, there's no possibility of any redemption. Nobody's gonna come to save me. I feel like a monster, I feel like a monster, I feel like a monster, I feel like a monster. These are some of the most bone-chilling lyrics I think I've ever witnessed in any kind of secular or sacred music ever.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah, and and I think what we're trying to say is simply presenting the problem well is not a good solution.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

No, I mean, the world does that all the time. The world presents the problem to us in in every form you can imagine. Yeah. I mean, you know, of course, the demons are very good at at this sort of thing. So it's another yeah, got it. It's not for us. The pilgrim, you know, when he came upon the man in the iron cage, he had to turn off the music as soon as possible. He had to get away from the man who had capitulated to the inevitability of this lost and damned condition. So again, the problem with the four billion downloads is there's way too many people who aren't going to correct the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather find an identification with it. You know, the reason you listen to this music is you identify it with it. You you you identify with the fact that you are a monster and that there's this raging demon inside of you controlling you. And evidently there are enough people uh who are pretty much, you know, identify with that experience that they appreciate music like this and will listen to it over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

So, Kevin, this song Monster shows up uh originally uh in the album uh I believe it was Awake, and the album contains another song called Forgiven. And so um, you know, I'll pull up the lyrics here, but what if the argument is, okay, well, you gotta listen to the album as a whole, and this track is presenting the problem, and then a later track is presenting the solution. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Well, I think there's again a discontinuity between uh interpretations, and that to me is the is the major problem is that people will listen to these things as a separate uh uh entity. They they don't they don't go from one track to the next necessarily. And so, you know, unless the artist is willing to put it all together in a one message, I mean that would be something, then you could easily interpret, you know, the the lyrics if if the lyrics are presented in a clear and straightforward manner.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah. Well, I look at the lyrics of forgiven, and I'm not seeing a clear reference to Christ, and I think we do need to remember that people need a pretty clear message, a very distinct sound. And that's interesting, that's one of the things that First Corinthians speaks of in relationship to music itself, is that there needs to be a clear sound and a clear message with our music itself.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Well, and to go to more fundamental worldview issues, uh, we have to, you know, consider the influence of romanticism and ultimately romanticism or a Dionysian kind of thinking, that is the party god that uh dominates the emotions, uh drawn in from the Greek, you know, literature. Um it's romantic, this this emotional control of the individual as defining of this spiritual experience, as defining of the individual, is the overriding worldview that uh that that really came to fruition in the rock and roll generation of the 1950s, 60s, and 1970s. So I think we need to understand that uh that this romanticism worldview has been so influential in the modern mind. Isn't it important for us to step back and ask ourselves what are the overriding worldviews that tend to dominate the mode, not just the message, but the mode of our cultural expressions today? I think it to be important. Now, again, people say, well, what does the Bible say? About this. Well, 1 Corinthians 14 and verse 15 says, I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Meaning that a biblical way of the Christian life is to live it out not as the Dionysian emotional experience as the total spiritual experience for us, but uh as as one who has been uh taught by the Savior Himself and received the words of Jesus. And the words of Jesus abide in us in a very rich and a wholesome way, and then is expressed in music. I I love music that uh brings out, say, the Sermon on the Mount. I've I've come upon upon maybe two or three songs in the history of Kevin Swanson exploring music uh that express some of the uh the lessons out of the Sermon on the Mount. Or you think about the Psalms. The Psalms are expressions of the human heart that are resolved in uh in trust and hope in God. And so you you know, is there any point at which a man is crying out, you know, why art thou distressed or cast down, O my soul, why art thou disquieted within me? But the answer always comes. Let's at least hope in God. Let's at least wait upon God, let's at least pray to God and know in faith that he will answer me and uh and he will give me the help that I need. Uh so there is this r resolution in the psalm, uh, each of the psalms, to uh to to to know that God is there, God is hearing us, and God will respond to us. That's the overriding. There's one psalm in which it doesn't resolve by word, but resolves by sentiment that God is still listening to me as I bring my complaint to him.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah. And it's always that God-centered perspective that is clear and explicit. And I think 1 Corinthians 14, verse 26 ties in here as well. How is it then, brethren, when you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. And we can tie that back into verse eight of the chapter, uh, which is uh for if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? The the the point of that verse is the message does have to be clear enough to drive someone to action. And that's the point of the music, is that it's an edification, a building up that draws them closer to the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Right. So the principles that are important to us is first that we don't give way to this romanticism in which there is this dominating emotional experience in the music itself. Um that's that's one of the significant important principles. I attended a CCM concert about a couple months ago, maybe 15 minutes of it, but it was scary loudest, dominating. Felt like I was getting crushed by the sound I interacted with. And um I was curious about this all-consuming space-filling sound that uh is so dominating and so oppressive. It comes across as spiritually, emotionally, mentally, intellectually oppressive. The loud sound seems to fill all the space. And uh, it's apparently, I wanted to know what you know, what contributes to that. Like, wow, there's no breathing room at all in this experience. And so I did a little research on it. It turns out there's a distorted rhythm guitar that creates a modern wall of sound uh that's usually heavily distorted, double-tracked or quadracked, panned wide left and right. Uh, it plays sustained power chords and mixes to create this thick wall. I don't know if you've ever heard this before, but it is it's it's all consuming. That's the idea. And this again is Dionysius unleashed. This is this is that spirit of romanticism that intends to utterly consume us in the emotional sphere. And uh, it's extremely unhealthy. The volume is a complete violation of 1 Corinthians 14.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

The volume isn't isn't isn't incidental, is what you're saying. Well, there's volume to it as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

So I'm not saying there's volume. Yeah, it's not saying there isn't volume. Usually volume is cranked up pretty high as well, but there's also this wall of sound. Yeah. Um the compression, the limiting makes everything extremely loud. There are synths and background layers doing the same thing. The bass, uh, the guitar uh compresses together, it blends together, uh, and and sometimes runs extremely uh dominant and creates what is typically referred to as the wall of sound. Now, I don't remember this being the case in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s with popular music or CCM music. You think back to the Randy Stonehill, the early Amy Grant stuff. You didn't get any of this. But now the Dionysius experience of, say, the 1960s and 70s and 80s is uh is taken to the umpteenth level by these various methods, by creating this wall of sound. And I think people need to understand how the romantic worldview, how the dionysian worldview has expressed itself in the expression of modern music. I'm not sure people are thinking this way.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

And I think the application for me, Kevin, as I hear you say this, is why do I listen to music? You know, why do I listen to the songs that I listen to? Why do I like them? Uh what is the impact that these songs are having on me? And am I listening to them for emotional experience, even Christian music, or is it for the purpose of edification? I'm I'm convicted by that question. I am too.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

And I have to ask myself that question myself, especially as I listen to music by myself. If I was to use earphones, it's interesting if you use earphones. Uh, oftentimes you walk into your own existential individual cultural experience in which there isn't a great deal of interaction with others. And I would say that you're probably given to more of these uh wrong world views in uh in your cultural experiences. I mean, you tend not to be as accountable when you're using earphones and when you're involved in your personal uh cultural experiences. Uh so uh so yeah, I think music can become merely a cathartic effect or an emotional buffering or an effective regulation, uh, much like what Saul was experiencing when David would play for him. Remember, he'd play on the harp for him. And uh I uh for Saul, it appears to be more of a catharsis to uh to tame his spirits and perhaps to uh to bring that demonic influence down just a little bit. But I don't see that to be the major reason for listening to music or participating in the musical experience on the Sunday morning concert that is so common today in the um in the average evangelical church. No, I I think the reason for music needs to be to express thanksgiving and praise to God, uh to admonish one another, bring out the words of Christ and be sure that they're dwelling in us uh richly in all wisdom, such that as we listen to this music, the end result is more obedience to God, more of an understanding of his will for our lives, and a following through in obedience to it. And I'm just not sure that's the reason for much of the praise and worship and the musical entertainment that Christians are imbibing.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Kevin, I was thinking about the fact that my dad was very involved in the uh discussion around music as a music pastor in the 80s and uh maybe some of the 70s as well, and then as the director of a uh radio broadcast that featured Christian music back in the 90s. And ultimately he lost his job. Uh, he was fired because the whole music department was let go over the controversy of music. And the the this radio program could not satisfy the Christian music stations. Some of them wanted them to be more conservative, some of them wanted them to be more contemporary, and so ultimately they just canned the whole thing. But what I remember that uh growing up in that environment, I think gave me a little bit of a tethering to like things haven't always been this way. Like Christian music hasn't always been this way in terms of such a close mirroring of the mode between Christian music and secular music. And I think that's part of what we want to call people's attention to. Like, I wonder if we're we're frogs that don't know that we're in boiling water when it comes to these cultural forms. Uh, I think there needs to be a little bit of a question, wow, why why does the music I listen to sound so similar to the world's forms? Should that concern us?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I I believe it should, and particularly at a worldview level. Now, if people were pushing on music, what are the absolutely most important takeaways from this program? I would say number one, number one, let's get down to the fundamental. Number one is the that there is an objective truth in reality. I think that's the thing that scares me more than anything else, these modern lyrics that I'm reading. I'm not sure what they're talking about. Right. I I I need if I need somebody to interpret it for me, or I can give it a shot at interpretation. I'm sure there are people listening to me who say, you interpreted uh this song so wrongly, it really needs to be interpreted this way. And then you've got unbelievers listening, oh no, it needs to be interpreted that way. No, it needs to be interpreted this way, no, that way, no, this way over here. And there's hundreds of interpretations that could be, you know, uh achieved out of all of this postmodern garbage uh that's supposed to be artistic poetry, you know. But but what does it mean? The Bible is very clear. You read the Psalms, it's it doesn't take a genius to know to interpret the Word of God. There needs to be a clarity and a unity of thought that comes out of uh our uh cultural expressions. That's number one. And that's number one. There's got to be an objective truth in reality, and we need to oppose the relativism that so characterizes modern lyrics. Secondly, the Trinitarian worldview is important. And this hacking up of the lyrics, this expression that that lacks both the unity and the particularity tends to move more towards particularity. It tends to be fragmented and more into a polytheistic uh throwing out a notion here and then throwing out another notion here and throwing out another notion here, but a disconnection between the notions. Uh, that my I believe is an undermining of the Trinitarian idea. And of course, the idea of harmony, the idea of developing, you know, melody and harmony that that, yes, has some diversity to it, but the unity is well identified. We we we have no trouble identifying the the unity of the melody in the music, uh, but but also allowing for there to be some particularity. Of course, it was Johann Sebastian Bach and Mendelssohn and others that have worked probably harder than anybody else in producing uh some complex levels of diversity that uh are able to be uh woven into a beautiful unity. We have great Christian artists who've done this in the past, but boy, that was you know three, four hundred years ago. Today, uh there is this fracturing, this fragmenting of the modern mind uh where there's so much of a lack of that unity in the diversity. So I would say the Trinitarian worldview and the worldview that maintains objective truth and reality in the lyrics are the top two most important uh worldview issues that need to be brought into play. And then thirdly, I would say this romanticism of uh this influence of the Dionysian rock and roll generation has uh has been extremely damaging to the Christian mind and the Christian life and the Christian worship in our day as well. So those are top three, and I'm sure there are other issues as well that need to be discussed.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

I think the fruit of the spirit is a helpful test to bring to these cultural forms. And just to ask ourselves, as as I listen to this mode and and the message, am I being reinforced in love, joy, and peace, gentleness, long suffering, self-control, you know, to name a few. Yeah. And man, I I I I listened to a song like Monster, and I'm I'm not feeling the love, joy, and peace. Um, so I think maybe just a little bit of a sniff test on some of these. Yeah. What is the spirit that's being communicated?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

What you're saying is the degree of edification that is taken from it. And, you know, sometimes it's hard to know the first take, but uh absorb yourself into a genre, absorb yourself into uh these particular types of music. And uh and it doesn't matter. It might be country, it might be rock, it might be jazz, it might be classical, it could be any form. And as you're absorbing, I think you're gonna find that a certain amount of uh of you know, being careful not to give way to excess, being careful to interpret it rightly, being careful to uh involve others in the musical experience. You you find, you know, cultural experiences in the Bible tend to come together as a group. We do this together, we admonish one another in songs and hymns and spiritual songs together. So also, are we singing along? That's another aspect. The Bible doesn't actually encourage too much listening unless you happen to be Saul and you're you know oppressed by demonic spirits and you need to be listening to David, but that tends not to be the number one use of music. Are you able to participate in the singing, or is the band up front so dominant that you're put pressed back into just a spectator position in receiving the music? So I guess those are the issues of biblical biblical application of music, very, very clear. Uh, we need to be sure it's edifying. We need to be sure that we're we're singing with understanding. We need to be sure that uh we are doing it in in together, we're admonishing one another, we're we're coming out with a spirit of thanksgiving and praise and worship to God. And uh and I think I would also say uh are we are we ending with a God-centeredness and uh and uh spirit of thanksgiving? I think those are the major issues uh tie into music. Yeah. Well, friends, you've been listening to the Generations broadcast. We are in the midst of a fundraising month in which we're trying to bring a biblical worldview uh to every aspect of life, been doing this for 22 years, and uh we certainly are not ignoring the area of music and movies and other forms of pop culture. I'd recommend my book, The Tattooed Jesus. Uh, but we talk about a fair amount. In fact, I would suggest once every week or every two weeks we bring back the uh discussion on uh cultural expression. And uh so if if if you like this idea of bringing biblical verses to bear and uh encouraging us to apply the word of God to every area of life and to equip the man and woman of God to every good work, if this is helpful to that end, um perhaps you'd like to support our program. And uh, I think this is the first time we've done this. Uh, we've done a month-long uh fundraising drive uh for the generation's radio ministry. And uh so after 22 years, uh, we're encouraging uh folks to get on board with this. And we we are touching lives of tens of thousands of people throughout media access uh all around the world, and we're hoping that this will be helpful uh to uh to rooting and grounding uh the next generation in biblical truth. So if if this has been helpful for you, we encourage you to our website, uh generations.org slash give, and uh there you'll get an opportunity to provide just a little bit of help to keep this thing going. And we would really like to double our outreach over the next year. It's one of our goals, one of our prayers, uh, one of our, you know, looking to God that perhaps he might uh help us to take this one talent and make it two. So if you would like to get behind us in this endeavor, please just go to generations.org slash give. And uh you can choose the Worldview program or this Generations Radio program or our international outreach or any of these uh to be a part of the Generations program. So please partner with us. Certainly your prayers would be helpful uh to keep us uh going day by day, week by week, and year by year as we seek to serve the Lord Jesus Christ in this capacity. This is Kevin Swanson and Danny Craig, inviting you back again next time as we continue to lay down a vision for the next generation. This has been a production of the Generations Media Network. For more information, go to generations.org/slash media.