What Does the Bible Say About the 2nd Amendment? — What Does the Bible Say About That?

Kevin and Josh investigate the biblical right and responsibility of bearing arms to preserve the lives of those we care for. They talk about how the great missionary John G. Paton used a gun (without ever killing anyone)…when “shoot first and ask questions later” is biblically appropriate…when we stray into risking blood guiltiness…plus, what the founding fathers meant by a “militia,” biblical examples of the people taking up arms, and the limits of such resistance.

Download the episode MP3 here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2520780/episodes/19530735-what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-2nd-amendment-what-does-the-bible-say-about-that.mp3

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome, friends, to the Generations Broadcast. Kevin Swanson with you today, and with me in studio, Joshua Suiso, who is director of our uh publication ministry here at the Generations Ministry. But today, friends, we want to talk about what does the Bible say about the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Or what does the Bible say about guns, owning guns, using guns, and self-defense? So this is a somewhat of a broad topic, but the Bible has certain things to say. Exodus 22, Luke 22. We've got a couple of really important passages here, and yet we have a commitment to mercy and justice. At the end of the day, we absolutely have a biblical right and I would say sometimes responsibility to own a sword. Let's go directly to Luke 22 in verse 36. This is where Jesus is approaching his disciples. Uh for this period of time, he has said they didn't need the script, the purse, or even the sword, but now he says the game is changing. He that has a purse, let him take it. Likewise, his script or bag, and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Sounds like it's a pretty important uh part of life to be prepared for the kind of ministry that they're going to be involved with, which involves a fair amount of travel. And I would say the use of the sword has more to do with traveling from one city to another where you're risking running into wild wild beasts, lions certainly were, you know, uh throughout the promised land, throughout Canaan, we find references to that with Samson, for example. But also the bad guy that there are robbers apparently that were on the roads. Remember the parable of the Good Samaritans? So you know there were robbers on the road. Is it appropriate to have some form of personal defense, self-defense uh weapons if you are, you know, going to be accosted by some thief on the road? And it seems to me Jesus is saying it's appropriate. Now, not so much to clip off the ear of the priests. I deserve it to happen. Right, which was about to happen. So apparently Peter took you know that admonition a little too literally, at least in the moment. Uh, I do believe it's a literal sword, though. Your talk on your take on this.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah, and of course, when they say, here are two swords, he says it's enough. Now he's not making a big point beyond that here. And clearly it's not Jesus' intention to say, get armed so that we can fight off the band of people that are coming into the Garden of Gethsemane so we can stop this bad thing from happening, because he's made clear to them this is how the scriptures must be fulfilled. And yet he is um supporting the ethical rightness of this, that one can do this, one can have such a sword in a defensive context. So you don't think this is a spiritual application?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

You you literally believe that uh Jesus is exhorting his disciples to take with them, to be prepared to take with them some money, some belongings, stuffed into a bag, and that might include a real sword that that you know pokes people.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yep, absolutely. I that's how I take it. Uh, I do think, though, that that as they go into ministry, you know, post-Pentecost, clearly that whenever they're on gospel mission from the standpoint of preaching before the Sanhedrin or somewhere, it's not it's not a mission accomplished by by physical warfare, right? And they were willing to get imprisoned and be persecuted, and they weren't using violence in those contexts, but uh there is still a basic ethical foundation here that says, yes, one can have a sword and one could use it.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

And but can we say that uh as we are doing God's work, that we will be miraculously uh protected from being accosted by lions, bears, uh no need for bear spray, no need for any kind of personal defense weaponry uh if we're wandering off into the woods somewhere. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Well, and the scriptures don't guarantee miracle miraculous outcomes in any and all these circumstances, and yet we know God is can do such things. He can. And j I think John Payton is a good example of somewhat walking this line. You know, he was very committed on the New Hebrides not to take the life of the those he was ministering to. And this is the famous missionary John G. Payton. Yeah, on the yeah, exactly. And he he did have a gun, and he would pull it out in a few cases to try to prevent violence from happening.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

It was a deterrent, and he said he never loaded it. Yeah, it was never a loaded gun. He would use it as a deterrent at points to save his life. And his life was threatened 30, 45, 50 times. Unbelievable. It's one of the most unbelievable missionary stories of all time.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Right, it is. But he had a commitment to reach those people, and he he believed that that if he actually inflicted violence, he would dramatically hinder his ability to minister to that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Especially in that they had met so much violence at the hands of the slave traders. Right. So there were those sorts of uh dynamics going on. It's good ethical thinking that he's bringing to bear that. Yeah. So he's making good choices there. So now I believe that if somebody comes into your house, you have an obligation to love your neighbor as yourself and to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, even at the point at which you defend your house. Yeah. That you can and should love God and His righteousness such that number one, you would love your children, defend your family and children from any imminent harm that might happen from this thief breaking into the house. Now, is it possible to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and perhaps be an executioner, you know, and and and apply the civil jurisdictional penalty or punishment of capital punishment for a murderer? Could you love God and pull that switch or push that button or pull that trigger and put the murderer to death? Can you love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength while obeying Genesis 9, 6? Yeah. Or even Exodus 20. Um, I believe it's possible to stand there in the hallway, pull the trigger while loving God and say, I hate the violation of the Sixth Commandment. I will stop this man from violating the Sixth Commandment by shooting him. Does that make sense? In other words, my self-defense is not a violation of the Sixth Commandment, but his attack on my family happens to be a violation of the Sixth Commandment, right? Because it's not, it's not for him to murder any of my household or to threaten to murder any of my household in cold blood. That being the case, I can stand against him and pursue the justice of God in this matter. Yes. Uh so we are to pursue justice and mercy. It's interesting, Jesus said the weightier matters of the law are justice, mercy, and faith, right? So so we are required on the both hand. Yes. Uh no, some say, no, no, you need to stop for a moment and share the gospel with the guy breaking into your house. I believe there are opportunities to do that. I'm I'm guessing occasionally you might run into somebody who's breaking into your house, and maybe there's an opportunity at that moment to say, why are you here? What are you doing here? Oh, you've got a drug problem. Uh, let me share the gospel with you. And you're maybe you're sensing your life isn't threatened, but he's got a 45 and he's pointing it directly at you or at one of your family members. In a situation like that, Josh, it seems to me that, yes, we do show mercy at times at which we share the gospel, but there is also moments at which we must pursue justice. And part of pursuing justice is to stop that man from from committing a crime against God and uh and performing this terrible, terrible crime of violating the sixth commandment and shooting one of my loved ones.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Absolutely. Yeah, in Exodus 22, it it specifically deals with the issue of a thief, and it has two scenarios. It deals with the thief who breaks in at night, and because of the darkness, you might take that per the thief's life because you don't know what his intentions are, you don't know what else he's going to do, and there is no guilt imposed in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

So could you read that verse for us? I think this is really key. It's a thief that's breaking in, not necessarily in this case, to be a murderer.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

May or may not. May or may not. Because sometimes in the midst of theft, they have to protect their own life and they might kill you, so forth. But so what it says is in Exodus 22, verse 2, if the thief is found breaking in and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. Now, I think verse one indicated it was at night. I don't have that here. But verse three says, if the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution. So, in the context of theft, in the daytime, the goal is to mitigate the loss of life, even of the thief. Right. And the concern is that the thing is.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

But at nighttime, you have no idea what his intentions are intentions are.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Now, also in the daytime, if he's not just a thief, but a murderer, if that was to happen, I think that also plays into how we apply this passage. Like if you if there is a 45 that's pulled and your wife or children are at risk, it that would mean that no, you're facing an imminent uh matter of death.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Aaron Ross Powell Well one of the things though, though, I resist uh somewhat is this uh individualism that we find in the the West, in which the man is constantly concerned for himself. And it's all about self-defense. You actually find in scripture it tends the emphasis tends to be on family defense. Uh, I think in Nehemiah 4.14 to take your sword and defend and and fight for. Actually, the words in Nehemiah 4, I believe, is fight for your wife, your sons, and your daughters.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, it says in verse 13, uh, I stationed the people by their clans with their swords, their spears, and their bows. And I looked in a rose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, there's a faith element there, who is great and awesome, and you fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes. And so they were to lay their lives down, right? They're putting themselves in the line of of risk. Uh, and John 15 would reinforce that the greatest love is that you lay down your life for your friends. And so the focus is not on the preservation of your own life, uh, but if necessary, laying it down to preserve and protect others.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Right. So the number one concern is love for God. Number two concern is love for your neighbor. And love for self is not. And your closest neighbors are your wife and children. That's right. And we have an obligation before God to defend them. Yes. So would you do that if somebody broke in at night and uh you have no idea. You know, they they're broken in, they broke a window, they're running through the house. Are you gonna stop them with a gun? Yeah.

unknown 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

I would absolutely and I do keep a 45 near me.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, take whatever's necessary to preserve preserve the life of your wife and children.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Uh it's it's it's I'm not gonna say it's locked and loaded, but it's ready to go. Yeah, right. It's accessible. It's ready to go. It's accessible. Not gonna tell anybody where it's sitting. Right, but it's accessible to me. Where I lay in my bed, yeah. That that weapon has been accessible to me for uh probably the last 25 years. Yeah. And that's appropriate in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Absolutely. I believe scripture gives us a variety of ethical foundations that say we need to s we need to defend life.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

And primarily our interest is to defend the lives of others. And uh so if you're by yourself and somebody's approaching you and you know, out in the middle of nowhere, and there's a threat there, perhaps hold back on shooting? Yeah, I mean, I think maybe have have a conversation first. In other words, you know, there is the shoot first, ask questions later. That's what I would do in the hallway at two in the morning if somebody's approaching, you know, my my family.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Only you in the daytime, if you have a defensive weapon, that's gonna mitigate how much action you need to take. You can f flash the gun, yeah. Yeah, what else can you do here? Can you flash the gun? Can you run for police? Can you call police?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah, all those factors easy ways. I had a visiting nurse friend who was, I guess, in a rather unsavory neighborhood in which his car was being approached by unsavory persons. And uh they were right there on the car. He m moved his his coat away from his weapon, just just kind of moved it away. Yeah, and they immediately backed away. Right. I had another friend, uh somebody was scratching at the window attempting to get in. He got his shotgun and advanced the first shell. That's pretty much there's this universal symbol that I think communicates very well to the bad guys.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah. Now, even with bad guys in those kinds of scenarios, we want to still preserve life. We would like to possibly like it, it's lawful to fight back if one needs to, I believe, scripturally, if your life is uh threatened. And yet we need to preserve life as much as we can.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

And yet in the middle of the night, you're defending your family, and I think the way this passage is putting it is actually very well put. Obviously, it's God's law, it's the wisdom of God's law. And and by the way, every word of God is effectual to equip the man and woman of God for every good work. So please do not, do not, I tell you, do not ignore Exodus 22. But but there's wisdom there that that you know what? You're probably gonna kill him. If he's approaching, coming down the hallway at two in the morning, and you're accosting him with a gun, he's got, you know, some weapon in his hand or what have you, you're gonna take three or four shots, you're gonna stop him. And you got a pretty uh strong possibility that you're gonna kill him. But if it's in the middle of the night or middle of the day, and you're downtown somewhere and you got some bad guys approaching you, um, I think you can use you can talk a little bit. You can kind of say some things. You might even call them to repentance. I mean, I have a friend who uh was pulled over by the cartel in Mexico and surrounded by the bad guys, and they asked him what he was doing there, probably gonna kill him. And he said, uh, well, I'm a missionary. Yeah, I'm sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And uh one of the cartel members said, Oh, I have a sister who's a Christian, let's just let this guy go. And they they turned back and started walking away. And then this missionary said, Now hang on for a second, I have something to share with you. Yeah, there you go. And he shared the gospel with the cartel members. So um but it's a good thing. So I think it's appropriate, but it's gone. But but but if his family members were with him, yeah, it would be quite a different story. That's my point. My point is the primary concern is not so much self-defense as family defense and neighbor defense in the use of guns. Say neighbor defense. Or even neighbor defense, right, sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

It's right there.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

But now let's turn our attention to the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Because we're asking the question today, my friends, what does the Bible say about the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? So what is it? A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Now, what did our founders mean by this? No, well, number one, they meant that you could keep arms and carry them. So there's two things. Right. You own them and you can hold the right. And this whole idea that you have the right to buy a weapon and lock it into a safe and never carry it anywhere. Yeah, yeah. That's uh that's not what I'm reading here. It didn't say keep only. It's keep and bear. Right. Keep and bear arms. Right. So what did the founders mean? Well, James Madison, the architect of the Constitution, Federalist number 46, he spoke contemptuously of a European kingdom, say they they're afraid to trust the people with arms, but he assured his fellow citizens that they need never fear their government because, quote, the advantage of being armed. Okay. So in other words, it was intended to be a form of balance of powers on the part of the people. That, you know, our tyrants, our wannabe tyrants in governments might be a little more hesitant to, you know, tyrannize the populace if they knew that the populace were bearing arms. George Mason, the author of Virginia Bill of Rights, the man who really worked the hardest to establish our Bill of Rights, him and Patrick Henry, uh, George Mason argued the importance of the militia and right to bear arms by reminding his compatriots of England's efforts to just disarm the people, that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave the people by totally disusing and neglecting the militia. He also clarified that under prevailing practice, the militia included all people, rich and poor, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers. He didn't want the public officers involved. Also, Noah Webster, who you you've written on Noah Webster. American faith. Perhaps one of the godliest men. So thankful for him. I still use his dictionary. Yeah. Noah Webster, tremendous man of God. Here's what he said: before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. Yeah. The Supreme Power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be on any pretense raised in the United States. Now, our friends listening from Canada and England and elsewhere, they're going to be pretty offended by some of these comments made by Americans. It was a reality, though. And yet there seems to be a value to the militia. It does seem like you know, the fact that America is well armed does, I think, present just a little bit of a pause for, let's say, I don't know, maybe the tyrants from China who want to come over the ocean and try to tyrannize these people. Be a little tough to do that. Right. Um now, I would say, I would add to this that I think biblically speaking, the militia needs to operate under a proper lower magistrate. Uh interposition would allow, and when we say interposition, that means lower magistrates can help in uh defending the people from unjust laws. I give the example of Obadiah. Remember Obadiah?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, the priest.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Uh, no, he was he was he was he was a magistrate protecting the prophets. Protecting the prophets during the reign of Ahab, because Ahab was out there to kill the prophets of God. This is in the Northern Kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah, yeah, it says that he was in charge. Uh now Obadiah feared the Lord greatly, and while for so it was, while Jezebel massacred the prophets of the Lord, that Obadiah had taken one hundred prophets and hidden them, fifty to a cave and had fed them with bread and water. It's first Kings uh eighteen. And so he provides that protection for them against another magistrate. Against really the higher magistrate. Yeah, higher. She's master of the city.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

These guys are Ahab's in charge. Yeah. And so Obadiah, who's the second in command, or one of the guys further down the food chain and them uh on the civil magistrate side of things, he's defending the prophets of God, feeding the prophets of God in opposition to the king's command. He fears the Lord greatly. That's why he did it. And he did it out of the fear of God. And so we would say that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, and I think the American founders, you know, they they already had this idea of interposition built into their thinking. I mean, the whole war for independence was these colonial magistrates and colonial governments uh pressing back against the king. And so they already uh understood that we can have lesser magistrates intervene and even intervene violently in order to protect the rights of the people.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

And Saul is legitimately held back from killing Jonathan in his rash vow. So we have remember Saul was saying, hey, anybody gets out there and eats anything, I'm gonna kill him. Well, Jonathan ate some honey. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

And he had delivered the people in battle, which was the whole point of the silly vow. And so the people press back against Saul. We don't it doesn't appear that they took violent action, but they collectively said, We will not allow you to do this. You will not count. And we will not obey this command.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

We will not obey this. Well, we have many examples like that throughout scripture, and uh so you know, again, does this mean that they have a right to arms and to bear arms and to stand with arms? And I I'm guessing that the people had arms, they had their swords, and they stood there and said, Saul, uh-uh, you're not doing this. And Saul may have had you know some arms himself, but he obviously made the decision he's not gonna enforce this law because he was being opposed by uh a group of people who evidently were armed, and I think that's appropriate. Yes. I think there's an appropriate nation nature of this. By the way, from our founder's perspective, the militia should have the right to own surface-to-air missiles and machine guns. And I think that's that that's the position I take. Okay. Now, some may say, well, that's a little radical, but you know, hey, the sword was the means of self-defense, the means of you know engaging in military warfare at the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Well, the militia was a military body that came assembled from the citizenry, right? Well, that's true. It's not a standing army, but they they were gonna engage in military action.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

And to that point, um, God doesn't want a standing army. It's not standing. And neither did our founders. Our founders actually weren't that keen on a standing army. They much prefer a militia over a standing army. And you find this throughout the book of Deuteronomy that God does not want the king assembling an army. In fact, you've been preaching on this in terms of Solomon.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, Solomon was just getting chariots upon chariots, horses upon horses, and there was a serious risk in terms of pride and uh the downfall of the kingdom. Uh there's a lot of negativity around that.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So do you think he was violating God's command in building up a standing army?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah. And it was interesting when I was looking at Deuteronomy 17 that the text it doesn't give a number. Like it doesn't say, you shall only have a thousand chariots. It had to do with the heart trajectory. You shall not multiply to yourself. Keep multiplying. And that's of course exactly what he never stopped. He just kept on multiplying over and over again. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Any other thoughts on this, Josh? I mean, we've we've emphasized, I think, the fundamental principles, and that is we're to stand for justice. Uh use the means that God has given to us, and we're not to violate those means. I'm very cautious on c uh crossing the line of uh you know the individual taking the jurisdiction to himself and then uh taking violent action against a higher magistrate. And I don't think that's appropriate. We see that with David, who is not going to kill Saul. He wouldn't kill Saul. He refused to kill the Lord's anointed, meaning that the man who was in the position of the civil magistrate at the time. And uh and so you know, I'm not saying that that we have an a right or a responsibility or it's a immoral it's a moral thing to assemble ourselves against the magistrate unless we are under a proper magistrate. Yeah. In other words, we can operate under a sheriff, we can operate under the governor of our state, we can operate under obviously the president of the United States, but we cannot become this anarchical band of people that run around shooting the sheriff.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, yeah. And in America, we we have a very strong gun culture that's unique compared to the rest of the world and compared to Europe, for example. And in light of that, I mean, I think there are some blessings to that. I think the Second Amendment is a blessing. And yet I would exhort young men that you need to keep as your primary focus love for God and love for neighbor in terms of whatever level of interest and investment you put into these things. Keep that central. You know, don't make it a uh idolatrous fixation on power or violence, of course. And to be sure that we really study out these ethical principles of scripture.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

And a more fundamental doctrinal perspective we find in scripture is the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Men run to shed blood. You read Romans 3 and you find this doctrine of total depravity that so constitutes the heart of man, that man is so depraved that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And to have a balance of powers, and I I would just say gun ownership is a single balance of powers. I mean, you have the executive, the judicial, the legislative, the federal, the state, the local government. You have all these balances that uh have been hardwired into our system of government because our founders believed this doctrine of the total depravity of men. They're not going to allow for our magistrate, like uh an executive, to have total power and collect all of the weapons and uh maintain a total tyranny and a centralized power over the populace. Absolutely not. These power mongers must be deterred uh by this show of force. Bad guys, tyrants, they understand the language of power and force, and an armed citizenry in each state can provide for an instant pushback against the wannabe tyrants. Well, friends, that wraps up this edition of What Does the Bible Say About That? And we've been talking about the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and it is a blessing, I believe, to this nation. And it is one thing that's extending the liberties of this nation uh from one generation to the next, and we're thankful for it. So I hope this has been helpful for you, friends. Uh, you can interact with the program by emailing me at mail at generations.org if you have any other questions or additions or subtractions to this. Uh, I want to thank you, Josh, for joining me on this edition, and we want to invite you back again next time as we continue to lay down a vision for the next generation. This has been a production of the Generations Media Network. For more information, go to generations.org/slash media.