Noble Conversations:
Listen to amazing, inspirational people, who are changing themselves and the world by living their values, such as dignity, compassion, integrity, joy and justice.
This podcast brings the future into the present by giving you lots of ideas that potentially could enhance your life.
Features as host, the inspirational speaker, broadcaster and author Dr Neil Hawkes, the world’s leading advocate for values-based leadership and for a focus in schools and other settings on Values-based Education.
Noble Conversations:
No 19 Guided by Integrity. Fabienne Vailes with Neil Hawkes
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In this revealing Noble Conversation, Fabienne Vailes talks openly about her personal journey and the development of her views about life and education.
Fabienne is a parent, educator, and someone who could no longer ignore what wasn’t working in education.
First and foremost, she's a mother of two teenage boys. Like many parents, her journey hasn’t been straightforward. It has involved questioning, unlearning, and rethinking what education really means.
At one point, she home educated one of her sons, while the other followed a more traditional school path. Living these different realities side by side changed how she sees education: not as one system, but as something much more complex and human.
After nearly 30 years working across education from early years to higher education, she began to notice a pattern.
More and more young people were struggling. And more and more adults were trying to hold it all together.
It didn’t sit right with Fabienne to see children as “the problem”.
So, she started asking different questions:
- What if behaviour is communication?
- What if well-being is not an add-on, but the foundation?
- What if we need to unlearn as much as we learn?
Flourishing Education grew from these questions.
Fabienne's work sits between the “ME” and the “WE”.
Fabienne supports parents, teachers, and school staff who are holding a lot, not by offering quick fixes or strategies, but by creating space to pause, reflect, and see more clearly.
Fabienne is:
- an NLP Practitioner and Master Practitioner
- a Coach
- a Clinical Hypnotherapist, with a focus on anxiety and stress
- a Mindfulness and Meditation Teacher (LinkedIn)
These are not techniques she “applies” to people.
Fabienne Vailles is author of 'The Flourishing Student' (in its second edition) aimed at teachers and tutors, co-author of 'How to Grow a Grown Up' written for parents with Dr Dominique Thompson and soon to be co-author a third book co-authored with Dr Natalie Rothwell-Warn which will come out in summer 2026. She is also a podcaster and Founder of Flourishing Education. Neil enjoyed being a guest on her podcast. As part of her PhD at the University of Bristol she is currently exploring How we Co-Create Enabling Environments in Secondary Schools to BE and Flourish Together.
Fabienne's passion is to explore how we co-create and transform our education systems so that ALL can flourish. She has a deep interest in how together we decolonise our thinking, doing and most importantly our BE-ing through both inner soulful justice and external social justice work, one imperfectly perfect conversation at a time.
At the heart of it all, Fabienne cares deeply about holding and co-creating spaces where people can be, become, and belong.
Fabienne will touch your heart and challenge your thinking by her authenticity.
Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/bernie-rosa/dandelions-scatter
License code: Q218Y1ZDOLIAIYOO
For more information about the transformational work of the IVET Foundation and its global Affiliates visit http://www.ivetfoundation.com
Thanks for listening!
Well, hello everybody. My name's Neil Hawkes. Welcome to another of our Noble Conversations. Our podcasts reach globally to thousands of people now, and I'm delighted that so many are listening to these uh wonderful podcasts. I'm excited today because uh I've just been chatting before starting today with uh a dear friend who has so much intuition and so much sensitivity. Her name is Fabian Bells, and uh I know you're going to enjoy listening to this conversation. Hello, Fabian. How are you today?
SPEAKER_01I'm very well, thank you, Neil. And lovely to be here with you and to be having this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's it's wonderful to be with you. You you said before we started that you'd just come back from France. Could you tell the listeners what you've been doing in France and why?
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course. So I've just come back uh visiting family and uh in in France where I grew up. Um, and I grew up just for people who are not very familiar with France or know France very well. Um, I grew up just outside a city called Saint-Étienne, um, which is probably people may know. I mean, people who like football may remember Saint Etienne as being a very good football uh team when I was young. Um, but if not, then it's quite close. It's about an hour away from Lyon. Um, so that's where I grew up. And I hadn't gone to see my family or seen my parents um since Christmas. So I really felt like I wanted to go and have a hug. There's something about being far away. You can speak on the phone, and now we have amazing technologies that really help us with that. Um, but there's something really missing with um you know having a hug and a chat in person.
SPEAKER_00So I I do uh have a lot of feeling for you there. Um we have a family scattered in places like New Zealand, so I know had that feeling of wanting a hug sometimes. Yes. Well tell us a little bit about your growing up in France. What was it like as a French girl growing up in France?
SPEAKER_01Oh, um it's funny, I don't often talk about my childhood um in France. So um I grew up um so in a very white working class family um with two amazing parents who um so so mum and dad were you know from a very working class background. So dad worked in a factory and mum worked in a supermarket. Uh but my dad from a very young age, uh, and and in fact we had this conversation at the weekend, really sold me the functional vision of education, as in, you know, Fabienne hop on this hamster wheel and off you go and get the qualifications, and this will get you out of this working class sort of um status. Um, and this weekend we had a conversation with dad around at what cost, um, and and the fact that I love him to bits, but I'm not sure that was perhaps the the best approach to um you know education. And we had a lovely conversation around that, so maybe we can discuss that at some point. Um yeah, and then my parents are very um, I mean, I I really, really love them to bits. They they just, you know, obviously when I grew up, we were we they did the best they could with what you know they had. Um so I grew up probably the first of seven or eight years of my life in a council estate in a little uh town known as uh Andresieu or Boutéon as it was, or La Chapelle specifically. Um and so I think this is where I developed my love for cultures and languages because really in the block of flat where we lived, my memories of a as a seven-year-old, six-year-old was a lot of different languages. So my best friend was half Spanish. Um, we had a neighbor who would leave like tagine on our doorstep, and my mum would exchange some of the uh French dishes. So I really feel like I grew up um in this really beautiful, like beautiful multicultural environment. Um, that interestingly often is presented as you know, like if if people talk about living in a in a block or flat and you know, like a estate, sort of like people view it as being really negative. But for me, it was really good memories. And in fact, I found moving to where my parents now now live. So my um my dad decided uh when we were about seven or eight, or I was seven or eight, to buy a plot of land and to build a house for us. Um and the town we moved in was very white. Um and and I guess maybe much more um you know middle class for a lot of people, and I really struggled growing up in that in that environment. Um I often felt out of place and a lot of uh, you know, I really missed the the more vibrant place, uh, you know, interestingly.
SPEAKER_00Um you an only child?
SPEAKER_01No, I have a sister who's 19 months older than me.
SPEAKER_00So the two of you. What characteristics did you inherit from your parents?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, again, that's really interesting because that's something that we really discussed this weekend with my parents. So um my I think from my dad, I inherited a uh really strong ethic, sort of like for work. And I mean, perhaps maybe too much, and in the sense that it turns um, you know, embracing the functionalism when you don't feel good enough means that you can use work as a as a workeralism as sort of slight uh drug. Um, so I think from that I've got both uh work ethics and I also have uh my dad used to be uh part as as part of working in a factory. He was a real unionist, so he was the rep for the union. Um he really believes in equity and uh you know all of those things. So I think I've I've yeah, I think I've got his his passion for equal rights, um, definitely. Um and my mom, I think from her um, I mean, before we started the conversation, we were talking about the balance between the masculine and the feminine. I think both my parents brought that for sure. Um, that balance between you know, dad being much more uh masculine energy and you know working and thinking, and mum being a very gentle soul. Um and so from mum, I probably have learnt how to love uh and to be compassionate. Um, she's probably the most loving and compassionate human being I know. Um, yeah, so and interestingly, this weekend I was saying to both my dad um how jokingly uh, you know. So I said to mom, Mum, thank you for teaching me how to be uh the most uh people pleasing person there can be in the world.
SPEAKER_02You've really role modeled that really, really well.
SPEAKER_01Um, because mum is just like it's always yes, and if you need anything, she'll give you everything and anything. Um, and then to dad, I joked with dad because I said, um thank you for teaching me how to work really hard and to not always get paid for the work I do.
SPEAKER_02And they were both joking and laughing, and I went, maybe a balance would be nice.
SPEAKER_00So I'm sensing there's a a lot of fun in your family. You you light up. Uh listeners won't be able to see your eyes lighting up as I can, but uh you light up when you talk about your family.
SPEAKER_01Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I mean I think given the the the conditions I uh you know I grew up in, um you know, when when you understand sort of like working class backgrounds, often there's a lot of um of baggage that comes with that, you know, a lot of um both my my grandparents from on both sides were heavy drinkers, all of those things, right? So um I I'm just very grateful because my parents clearly provided such a safe environment for us. Um and they yeah they they love us deeply, and so I have a lot, a lot of love and gratitude for them. Um and I think particularly because my both my mum and dad did all they could for me to use, you know, first generation to go to university, um, and they were always supporting me. Um so yes, I I I have a I have a lot of love for them for sure, and a lot of gratitude.
SPEAKER_00And you were at school in France, and I think listeners may, well, I'm sure they'd be interested in knowing uh what was it like being educated in France?
SPEAKER_03What was the experience?
SPEAKER_00What's it like to be a child in a French classroom?
SPEAKER_01From your so yes, I did all of my studies until about so I left France uh when I was about 22 to uh to move to Spain and live in Spain for a little bit, and then I moved to England after that. So by the age of 23, I lived in England. Um so I did all of my studies uh in France, including university. So I went to university uh in Saint-Étienne. Um perhaps what the listeners might not know about the French system is that um very often uh students don't go to university far away. Um so so young people who might be doing uh uh so the French system has a obviously university, and then you've got the system known as Grande École, which would be our equivalent of our Russell Group universities, I guess. Um, you know, none of our politicians, for example, in France uh would have gone to universities who study politics. They all have done science pour or science politiques, so a grande école, um, which obviously is uh is you have to pay a lot of money for that. It's that's sort of like 10,000 euros to a year to access, I think, or it was when I uh um yeah, it's quite a lot of money and it's quite selective. So I guess there's a lot of similarities with the British system in that sense. Um, but otherwise, education is uh is uh is free for so university, unlike the UK, you know, you you if you go and study at university, you only have to pay for your like the equivalent of your social security, uh, for your health care, and then a little bit for your registration, but you're talking probably like 500, uh, 800 euros a year. Um so compared to the uh to the UK, you know, you you unless you do, as I said, unless you go to a grande école or you do some something else that's more that's more private, you don't start your life with loads of debts like you would if you go to university. Um, so that's university, but to go back to your question about growing up in France and and going to school, so uh I now have uh you know a diagnosis of of neurodivergence, so I can make sense of a lot of my experiences. But I think back then as a child, um I because of the slow processing, so I have a brain that is really fast, like so thinks really, really fast, but my processing as in reading and you know, um is probably half the speed. So it means that it's very difficult for me to um to it was very difficult when I was a child, particularly a younger child, to really process things. I also grew up with uh with a lot of speech issues, so I had to go and see a speech therapist because I sort of like my sounds were not quite right. Um so growing up initially, um, you know, going to school wasn't particularly great. I think I grew up with this belief that I wasn't really good at school, that I wasn't particularly clever. Um and and I think what really uh did the trick for me is two things. My dad could see that um I was obviously not really enamored with the education system, and so he engineered uh back then it was quite easy for us as teenagers to get jobs in the summer. So he somehow uh engineered for me to get a job in the supermarket where my mum worked. Um and he asked uh the boss to make my life quite difficult on purpose. Um and so basically I I worked in the summer and then I couldn't wait to go back to school because I was just like, oh, if this is what my life is going to be, thanks, but no thanks. Um so so that was a you know quite quite a you know an element, I guess. I uh if you start working and you experience what it's like to work in a in a supermarket, you know, I also worked in in factories, you know, and uh to to make money to go to university because my parents didn't have a lot of money. And so, you know, like I worked in a factory that was um making cardboard boxes, so you had to constantly feed the the machine and the cards like would cut your wrist and stuff. So I mean like it was just quite quite tough. So that definitely made me appreciate school more, and I think the final thing was uh my French teacher, I was in probably the equivalent of a year uh nine. So I repeated my year nine. Um, because every year the teachers would say, uh, Fabienne is is doing okay, she could do with repeating a year, because in France they make you repeat a year if they don't think you you're doing well enough. Um, but but you know, because she's she lacks maturity, but because her results are okay, we can't really justify it. So they kept saying that. Um, and I think as a teenager, um uh my sat at a parents' evening and my mom was next to me. And back then in France they wouldn't address to like speak to you as the student, they would speak to your parents while you were there, you know, discussing you. Um and this teacher said, uh, your daughter literally is not very good, not good at you know, at French and at languages, and uh she'll amount to nothing, she'll end up working in the supermarket, is what he said. And at that point, my mum looked at him and said, Well, like me then. And at that point, I promised myself that he could not decide for me what I did, I would do with my life. So I think that really triggered in me. Um I don't know if it's the Frenchness, I don't know if it's my dad's sort of unionism, I don't know, but there's a part of me that's quite rebellious and quite sort of like you don't decide for me. So at that point I was like, I'll show you. Um, and I think that really triggered and and changed my trajectory in a sense that I decided to then stop doing anything in terms of my my achievement. Because I was like, well, you want me to stop work like to repeat my year, but you can't because I'm my grades are not bad enough. So I'm gonna okay, I'm gonna show you that you can, and I just stopped working. And so my average in Spanish that year was zero out of 20. I did nothing for a year, and they made me repeat my year, and then from there on, like I completely changed my view of education and studying and working.
SPEAKER_00Was there anybody uh you you've talked about the rather negative influence of that teacher? What did you have some really positive role models in the school there that showed you a different way, were different to you, were drawing you out?
SPEAKER_01Not not really. No, I don't think so. Um I mean, nobody that I really remember at uni, there were definitely more, you know, academics that really inspired me. Um but I I never really felt seen in school or represented or um so although you know I I changed my mind and I was like, right, I'm gonna work really hard. And and you know, so I got my, you know, I I my so in France you do your A levels, your French A levels, you do a year before you do the main A levels, when you do so you do a back baccalaureate. Um, and in that you know, you have to do maths, even if you're not uh so you do maths and and a lot of subjects. I did like nine, nine A levels, um, because that's what the French system asks of you. Um, but I did really well in my French um uh A levels. I I loved it because that particular teacher came to the supermarket where I was working uh to do his shopping, and he came to where I was in at the till. And his his thing was like, Oh, you work here now, and I just replied and I said, No, no, uh, I'm only here uh for the summer uh and then I'm gonna go and go to university. And his fair his face really fell, and I was like, Yay! Exactly. So it's like but but you know what, I think that that really determined for me the um how many people might not have like me might have heard this and then may have decided, well, they're right, right? And then and then your trajectory may be very different.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I think it's uh it's a very for me, perhaps that's that there's a lot of of my drive for the change in education and my love for education and my my love and passion for how important the adults are in the life of young people probably stems from that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating. Thank you for being so open about that. Uh I'm sure listeners have gained a lot. Is you talked about your neurodivergence, and I I thought, gosh, Neil, did you have some of that? And I'm sure lots of listeners have sort of is there a any sort of name for that, a type of neurodivergence? Because I'm sure some people will be wanting to follow that up, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um my official diagnosis is a I've got a diagnosis of ADHD, but I think probably I'm more or DHD, so like autism stroke, ADHD. Um I don't want to, I only uh got a diagnosis post-starting my PhD because I was really struggling. Um so and it helped because it made sense of a lot of the things I could make sense of of how my beautiful brain works.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's right. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um but yeah, uh yes, I think it helped. Yeah, it helped understand a lot of the of the the the schooling. And it's interesting because I don't really talk about my schooling in France at all, because I'm in England and people that's why I wanted to take you there, I think.
SPEAKER_00Um you then said you you went across. Across to uh Spain. Um, why did you go there? And then you came to England. So can you take us on the your journey now? Yes, of course.
SPEAKER_01So I I I shared at the beginning that I probably my love for languages and different cultures uh stems from growing up in a council estate surrounded by so many different sort of nationalities and cultures. Um so I did a back then my obviously it shows my age, I think it's now called something else, the the back, but I did a uh uh a baccalaureate that was specifically languages and sort of language really heavy. Um so I studied, of course, French, but um uh philosophy, but also we all do in France, we all we all have to do philosophy as well as French and maths, but less so. And then I studied English, Spanish, German at uh A levels. Um and then um my degree, so I did a um licence and then maîtrise, uh so like the equivalent of a master's, I guess, like BA honours masters, um, which is known in French as language étrangère appliquée, so applied foreign languages. So I didn't, I mean it's it's hilarious when you look back, but in France you've got two pathways. You've got a pathway which is LCA, language civilization étrangère, which is languages and foreign civilizations, which is more geared towards you entering the teaching um profession. So you know, usually people who do that then do uh uh in the aggregation and become you know, like a teacher at university or a teacher, or you know, like qualify teaching qualification in France. Um, I didn't want to do that, so I studied languages uh in with translation and interpreting and all of those things because I've always liked uh to apply the languages um I learned. Um so I did that. Um as part of my degree, I also uh studied uh Chinese uh for four years. I mean, I don't ask me to speak Chinese, I I don't remember a lot, um, but I did that, and then of course, uh as part of my uh uh degree I had to go and do placements in Spain. So I went and um I did a placement in a travel agency called uh Viajes Inter Lenguas, uh, which was in uh Alicante in Spain, and then I went and worked in uh Valencia uh in Spain just to practice and to gain experience of living in Spain. Um but I mean I love Spanish as a language, um I just didn't feel the I I don't know, I being in that in the country didn't feel uh right. Um and then I applied to do a teaching assistantship in England for one year. Um so I was um and I was accepted, so I was sent uh just outside Bristol uh in Portis Ed in a school. Um and and basically started my career uh there at like Was that Gordano school?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was yeah my one of my granddaughters goes to Gordano now.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you go. So my um both my boys, um well, my my elder, my youngest is still there, he's finishing, he's got he's in year 11.
SPEAKER_00Oh, how lovely. Yes, so that meant you were in the UK and that's where you've stayed.
SPEAKER_01I have, yes. Um, so so yes, like Spain and and uh always a lover of languages, always a lover of different cultures. Um I think I mean what's really interesting is when I was a child, uh we would go camping a lot. Um and every campsite I would seek out uh British people and Dutch people to practice my English uh from like as a teenager, from a very like I just I always loved languages, so I wanted to practice. Um so I always had uh uh I don't know why like a real affinity for for England in particular.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um and then you had a family, and yeah, as you said, you've got two boys, two teenagers.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, yes. So um when I first moved to uh England, I had a French boyfriend, so I had no intention of staying in the UK. Um, and then after three months in England, I realized I didn't really want to continue my relationship with my French boyfriend, so went back for uh October half-term and we broke up. Um and then uh it became easier to stay in England initially because it's like you know, obviously it was uh it'd been a quite long-term relationship. We've been together for about six years, and it was just easy. And he's he he he was is uh a friend of my uh brother-in-law's, so um, it would have been really difficult to stay in that friendship group. So I I'll admit initially my decision to stay in England was in part partially because I loved England, but also because it's like it's easier than just going back to the environment where I was. Um and then I after probably about 18 months I met my um now husband. So that's it.
SPEAKER_00Wow. What a beautiful story. And you live in the Bristol area now, don't you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just outside Bristol, in uh well, not far from Bortisad, where brilliant.
SPEAKER_00I know I know the area well. And uh then you uh went to Bristol University as the director of uh languages or French. And uh, you know, it's just amazing hearing your early story of and being told that you'd end up at the supermarket and your mother's reply to that, which was heartrending. You know, to see you're now at one of the leading universities in the UK and as director of French, that's an incredible uh achievement to uh to sort of go on that journey.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I guess so. I mean, like there was a lot of meandering in between. Um so I yes, I mean, so so I ended up going back to the job uh of so initially as deputy French language director, and then as uh my my uh dear colleague Hélène went back to France, so I applied and got the position as French language director. Um, and so I stayed there until 2022, when I uh well initially I asked for a one-year career break and then sort of uh uh resigned after that. Um but yeah, I mean like on on paper, it looks amazing, right? I think um many people, I'm sure, I'm sure a psychologist or uh uh you know someone who might look at it and go, I wonder how much of that it was was led by hurt in terms of like a French teacher, you know, then being French language director in a big university. Um and I think they probably wouldn't be wrong in a sense that yes, there was a lot of uh, you know, I was driven to show um that I could do what I was told I couldn't for sure. Um but it was a I mean the the the job was a was a real privilege because it's so beautiful to be surrounded by young people um who want to learn a language, particularly at university. Um yeah, it was it was really, really nice and I really enjoyed it. And my colleagues are and and were amazing.
SPEAKER_00So Fabienne, you you have uh what comes over to me in learning about you is you have a great love of people and particularly young people, and uh but also you're quite a revolutionary as such as come out in this conversation, and you're you're known as quite a critic of the education system. Uh can I just tease some of that out? What what is it you don't like about education as you see it now? And what what do you think needs to be done about it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so thank you. Um I think the revolutionary I think is the French, right? Like I owe that to my to my dad.
SPEAKER_00I think the union leader, the ancestry.
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't be surprised if uh, you know, there's ancestry that uh links to uh um revolution and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Um and and the loving of people, definitely mum, for sure, like yes, for sure. Um so I want to you know honor them in in in this because obviously um that's really important. Um so I've not always been a huge uh critic or as open um of the of not liking the the system. Uh I I've started the conversation by saying that dad encouraged me to embrace the functionalist approach to education. So for the for the people who who are listening and don't really understand what I mean by that is particularly in European countries like France and the UK, there's a there's a real uh narrative or story that says um you can succeed through hard work and meritocracy, in the sense that if you effort and struggle, then you can achieve. Um and and that it's you you're given the opportunities by the system, and and if you if you so wish, you can climb the ladder and make your way up, right? Um so on paper you could argue that I could be a poster girl for that narrative, right? Because really I went from working class, um, you know, white working class female to uh now I guess you know we would be middle class, you know, we've got a cottage, we you know, um I had a really good job at the university, so yeah, on paper it looks really good. I think what we don't discuss is like what I said, at what cost. So I think for me, there's been, you know, my my drive for success was constantly led by this feeling that I wasn't good enough. Um and so I was constantly aiming for the next thing. Uh, I describe it as going on my hamster whale, and then arriving thinking I'll be happy when, and then arriving there and going, I still feel empty. What's going on here? Um so deep down I've always been slightly frustrated by the education system, but I think the catalyst, so there's been several key elements that have really uh um led to where I stand right now. So the first one is uh when I returned to higher education after, so when the boys were little, I ran my own language school for about nine years. Um and and I think what I love about my career, I said there was a lot of meandering, is that I um I would be in the classroom and then I would be really frustrated and come out and do a lot of admin work instead because I was just like finding it really frustrating. Um but my career has taught me how to teach languages across all levels. So I've taught languages in nurseries, primary schools, state and independent schools, FE colleges, adults, and obviously most of my career in higher education. And obviously most of it in England, a little bit in France. And I think my my big frustration is that particularly for languages, we destroy the love for learning. So I could see these beautiful, you know, children in nurseries being fascinated by language and repeating and learning and all of those things. Um and then in primary, they would repeat what they'd done in nurseries, and then they go to secondary and they do the same thing that they've done in primary. Um, or you know, children don't learn languages until they arrive in in secondary school, at which point, you know, teenagers are very self-aware and self-conscious, and you know, maybe teaching them to speak a language when they don't feel confident. So all of those things have made me question how we approach languages. Certainly in England, uh, the reason I left secondary school language teaching is I just could not stand teaching the children to regurgitate these langu these sentences. So like they would come to the oral all prepared going, Ponjo, j'a ma pelpita, je abita porti set, je afray insa.
SPEAKER_02And it's like, oh my goodness, I'm just gonna like this is so destroying.
SPEAKER_01I really didn't like it. Okay. So then those were my frustrations. But then I came back to Bristol Uni in 2014, and to say that I was horrified by what I came back to is an understatement. So in 2014, um the young people I saw at university were very different from the young people had I had taught previously in 2006. Um I think mainly uh the biggest difference was that their subjective well-being was very low. Um and they seemed very fearful of making mistakes and of learning uh new things. So that made me curious because I like to understand what's going on. I guess that's like the curiosity of different languages and cultures. Um and that led me to write my first book, The Flourishing Student, uh, after having conversations with 10 first students, and then for the second um edition of further 13 students, so then the flourishing student model emerged. Um and then after that, so the the book was more for like educators, and then I was like, okay, maybe as a mum, I want to make sure my children don't arrive at university with a really low subjective well-being. So what is it I need to know? So I wrote How to Grow a Grown Up with Dr. Dominic Thompson for parents. So really I've been I've been writing books mainly for myself.
SPEAKER_00What a wonderful title that last one was.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um and and then, you know, in that process, I realized that a lot of the of the way we look at well-being is very uh individualistic and very much so focused on what you, the individual, can do. And we never really address the um the systemic, the more sort of uh societal as well as as uh structural um systemic issues. Um so I with with colleagues in the French department, we started doing embedding well-being in the curriculum, which um then led us to COVID. Um and so during COVID we had to stop the research. But what emerged from that research is that the young people told us, so we literally we looked at how we would uh develop a sense of uh belonging between the tutors and the young people. And the tutors and the young people told us, yes, we feel like we've established a sense of belonging and connections, but what really emerged is that you can't undo uh 18 years or of an education system in one year at university. It's not possible because um, you know, young people like myself come with a baggage of an experience of a schooling system, and that requires something other than just what you can do in the classroom.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, so that that's the professional sides. And back to your question, why am I a critic? So um in the process, and you know, uh just just a bit of forewarning for the listeners, uh, I'm going to talk about something that's uh a very uh quite a sensitive topic. So I'm gonna I'm about to mention sort of suicide and suicide ideation. So if people want to like if if this is something that may be challenging for you, then you might not want to listen. I'm just gonna forewarning you because I think it's quite important.
SPEAKER_00Um thank you for that warning. Yeah, I think it's it's the second time today that I I've had a conversation about the how we have to be sensitive around that area because uh listeners may have had recent experience and don't want to traumatize or re-traumatize anything.
SPEAKER_01No, exactly. So I just I want to give uh uh like an advance warning. Yeah. Um, so there's two elements. The first one is sadly, um, when I worked uh in my role back then, it was as deputy uh French language director, uh, one of our beautiful students um took their own lives during their year abroad. Um, and that for me was just uh completely and utterly um really difficult and challenging, um particularly because my lived experience as a as a white working class uh you know woman is that uh you know suicide and suicide ideation and depression is a very common um experience for a lot of working class people. Um so yeah, it's always been something that that has really weighed sort of heavily on my you know my heart and and my soul and all of those things. Um but I when this happened I really promised myself that if I could do anything, I would do anything for this to never happen you know under my watch. That's the first thing. And then of course what happened um because life is is very generous in its opportunities for for learning. We said before we were recording, right, that sometimes adversity is difficult and challenging, but that's that's also how we do a lot of learning through the adversity, sadly. Um and so what happened is uh during COVID um I watched my two boys who were back then in year six and seven, no year year five and six and seven and eight respectively. Um and I could watch how the schooling was having a negative effect on both of them. Um they both have their own sort of neurodivergence, obviously, because you know, the the the if it often in terms of the neurodivergence, if if one member of your family has that, then it chances are you know um we will see that too in the young people. But they were experiencing their own challenges of the respective challenges. Challenges. And for me, I really connected the dot between university and what I was seeing with my two, thinking, that explains this. Okay, interesting. And you know, bearing in mind I'd written books hoping that my two wouldn't find themselves in a situation like the young people at university. Um, so you know, that that was quite upsetting to see how they were being affected. So, for example, my eldest is very academic, but didn't really know how to manage his workload. So he would try to like do everything in in an hour, and then he would sort of like be really overwhelmed and all of those things. Uh, whereas my youngest is more like me, his slow processing is such that he would really struggle and he started um, you know, developing a narrative of I'm not good enough and you know, I'm stupid and all of those things. So that was really difficult, but I think the the more crucial or or for me, like the moment where I became my the the hardest critic of the system um is post-COVID my eldest um turnaround and said I don't want to go back to school. He was in year nine or was returning to year nine and he said I don't want to go back to school and you can't really force me. Um and I initially probably fobbed him off, as in like sort of said I'd started the podcast at that point because I was wanted to ask my podcast flourishing student, and I was asking questions about how can we educate differently. Um, but you know, and I was talking to a lot of people who were home educators or you know, doing things differently. But when you're you know, I'm a I'm a product of the education system, and so I really believed in the education system, and so the idea of home educating for me was like, oh lovely over there.
SPEAKER_02Not really for me, right?
SPEAKER_01Um and then after a couple of of months, my um I watch my my elders literally dim his lights. Um and and I can't I can't write about flourishing and I can't talk about well-being in his education and watch my own son in his light. It's for me it's not possible. And so um I I rang, I s I tried to speak to the heads of of the school and um arranged to have a meeting with with them. Um obviously transpired that back then obviously there wasn't as much flexibility as perhaps there is now, uh, because it was just right after you know COVID COVID, and so no, definitely wasn't there. Um and it just transpired that the only solution would be to deregister him. So I remember writing the letter and sending it and crying. I literally cried when I sent the letter. Um and I think I cried both because that's how I probably I would describe where you know you said you're a revolutionary and you know critic of the education system. I think I broke up with the education system then, Neil, um as it stands. Um and that's when I started calling myself a recovering teacher and a reformed mother. Um and I became much more vocal about the what I see as harm is being caused by the current schooling system. Um and I and at that point, if you know the people who are listening in England in particular are teachers, please know that I'm not judging you. I've been a teacher in the classroom. So I know that as a teacher or you know, someone who's an assistant in the classroom, you are in the classroom because you love young people just as much as I love them. Um so this isn't a critic critic, like a criticism of individuals. For me, there's there's a lot of the of the systemic issues that we know are not addressing enough.
SPEAKER_00Um could I just interrupt by drawing you out on perhaps one or two particular issues that make you go, oh no, you can't have that. Can you give us two one or two of those systems that like that I don't like? Things in the system that you think are so so abhorrent.
SPEAKER_01So I think the system has been A will is very Victorian still, and so it has been created under the the narrative or the notion that children are adults not yet adults, and that uh they are in a system to become cogs in a machine on in the neoliberal capitalist system. Um and so therefore, I think the biggest issue for me is that we we treat young people, and I would argue the the staff too, it's it's everybody in the system as cogs in a machine, not as unique ecosystems. So what is missing is the fact that we are all very distinct individuals, but we're not separate. We are all connected and interconnected. Um and so therefore, what the system fails to do is recognize the uniqueness and beauty of every single distinct individual whilst trying to funnel or shove them through a conveyor belt of education. Because the the current education system in England is geared to do SATS, GCSEs, A levels for the Holy Grail that is university, preferably Oxford, Cambridge. If you can't do that, then Russell Group Universities, and if you really can't do that, oh poor you, you might have to go to a post-92 university. Um and I think this is where probably uh my working class background comes out because for me A, why is it we say everybody needs to go to university when clearly young people like my youngest are not suited to university that may change later on in his life? Right now, I don't think university would suit him. And why is it we've created a system that says if you're not acad academic, if you're not intelligent inverted commas, then somehow there's something wrong with you. There's you're less than. And why is it we don't value um apprenticeship and other you know, course like pathways to become you know a plumber, a whatever, you know, I don't know. I I I just find it really difficult that we have this system that really makes people believe that if you don't have the education, you know, the the qualifications, then that's it, that's the end of your life. Um and it's not that I'm against qualifications, I've got loads of them. I'm currently doing a PhD. So, you know, like please don't like believe that when I say that I'm a hater of qualifications. And you know, um, my favorite, one of my favorite quotes comes from Nelson Mandela. Um I don't know if the listeners can see this. Uh close.
SPEAKER_00I think you'll have to reread it too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world. Um, and I really believe that. But for me, weapon is the word I think education currently, as it stands, has been weaponized.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and in it are a lot of inequities um and a lot of uh, you know, the reality is universities were made for white elite men, by white elite men for white elite men. That's the reality. Um, and so I don't think things have drastically changed. Um and to go back to your system, I think more and more with my PhD and the work I'm doing, I think the system is inherently racist and sexist and ageist and ableist, and like there's a lot of those things in the system. Um and we need to openly address them.
SPEAKER_00I think we need to have really serious conversations to um, I I read uh Fabian the title of your PhD. Uh, you know, how do we co-create an enabling environment where all can flourish in secondary schools in England uh through what you call a participant participatory action research PAR project inspired by a relational approach to well-being and flourishing. Wow, that's quite a title. Um your end of uh flourishing, uh well-being and flourishing. Uh and the key word in all that for me was relational, you know, being someone that believes in uh the uh privacy of relationships, um, you know. How's it going? What's happening uh in in your data collection? Data collection.
SPEAKER_01The data collection. So I'm in my third year. Um well, finish the data collection by the summer and then one year to do the writing up. So I should submit.
SPEAKER_00Um you give a glimpse into it's too early probably to say your outcomes, but uh you've got a couple of headliners you could tease us with.
SPEAKER_01So I think I would say the the PhD is really uh first of all is is participatory in the sense that it's really focused on young people um in in a secondary school. Um and it's uh I've I've had the uh utter joy and privilege of uh spending time with uh around 10 uh young people in a secondary school, uh, from year seven all the way to year 11, so two for each year group. Um literally unpacking that notion of relational well-being. So White and Jar's uh relational approach to well-being, which is a very different approach to um the Western normal approach of well-being, um, because White and Jar's work had has been uh predominantly done in the global south, so um Bangladesh, India, etc. Um, and I really, really like Sarah, Professor Sarah White and and Dr. Shreujar's work. That they're really uh I find their work inspirational.
SPEAKER_00What are they saying that's different from the other things we talk about in the West?
SPEAKER_01They challenge the one the notion of well-being as as an object that you measure. Um, and they really uh invite us to look at um well that basically they say there are three dimensions, essential dimensions to to well-being, and then uh from that there are also drivers that hinder and foster um well-being. Um so what I like about their work is it really enables you to connect the the individual, so what the individual can do to look after their well-being, and uh the the so what I call the me and the we, um, and the bridging the gaps between that me and the we. Um so I really like that. And and so we've done four data collections, so three talking circles with the young people, um, one talking circle with the adult champions to brief them on the project, and now the last two will be uh literally two talking circles between young people and adult champions in conversation together.
SPEAKER_00Um that sounds fascinating. Uh so you've you've taken this time out. Uh what will happen after your uh doctorate? Uh are you have you got a grand plan, or will you just let it emerge? Uh you know, what will happen?
SPEAKER_01So my sense is I really don't want to return to academia and go back to um to teaching per se. Um that said, and I think that's that's something that I've learned over the years, um, never say never. Um so one thing I often talk about in terms of well-being, that is my is a big critic, I'm a big sort of uh critique of the of the notion of well-being when we don't address one of our needs, which is the material needs. Um, so the fact that to be well we need to have a roof over our head and uh be able to put food on the table. And so, to your question, um to be well and to be able to support my two teenage boys who are 18 and 16 respectively, um, and you know, my husband and friends and family, um uh in exchange of my most precious resources, my time and my energy, um, I get paid and I get given money. So um obviously teaching could be a way of doing that whilst I develop what I'd like to develop, which is um a real mycelial network for education. So I really would like to see a lot of the research that is being done accessible to people on the ground, teachers, parents, uh, grandparents, etc. So we can truly, we the adults can truly um educate differently um and support the young people so that um they don't have to hear uh from an adult uh you'll amount to nothing and you'll work in a supermarket like I've had to.
SPEAKER_00Um I think what I'm hearing from you too is that uh you're you're someone that wants to give space so that people have time in order to develop themselves. Because one of my learnings as a teacher is you don't teach anybody anything, is that they are learning, and you can never prescribe learning. They're always people are always learning what they want to learn. You can create the circumstances and the the context for good learning to take place, which I believe is always in a relational context. Um, so yeah, is am I on your wavelength by saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, completely. Yes. So I think the the the most beautiful image that um for me speaks to what you've just breathes life into what you've just said is the realization I had as a mum, and particularly as a reformed mum now, because you know, I look I look back at my journey, and I think being a workaholic, I definitely have worked a lot too much, perhaps when the boys were younger, and I wish I'd been more present. I mean, I was very present in in particularly in the life of my eldest when he was deregistered. So no regrets, but that's that's how it is. Um, and I think this idea of space and time is for me beautifully represented. I recently was flicking through pictures uh of when you know I was younger and when I was pregnant with my two in particular. Um there were pictures of me being heavily pregnant. Um, and I was really hit, Neil, with that that beautiful representation of what you've just said, you know, that as an educator, as a mum, as a parent, um, we adults completely kid ourselves that we are in charge and we are doing anything. And I watched this picture of my son, and I was thinking, at that point, all I provided is the space of my womb and my stomach for this beautiful being to grow for nine months, and probably you know, he grew despite me, as in like there's moments when you stressed, and that stress has an effect on your child. At no point did I say to any of my two, grow your kidney, grow your fingers, you know, any of this. It all happened beautifully. And so, what would happen if we adults took that image with us? And when, you know, and this is true with any of the conversations we have and the way we are in the world, right? This perhaps we're far less in charge of life than we believe we are, and perhaps it's much more about trusting that actually life is unfolding and flowing beautifully. Um, and if we didn't get in the way of life as much, then maybe things would be, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I just what a beautiful image you've just painted, I think. Yeah, not to get in the way of life. What what an mantra. Um I can't let you go without asking what I usually ask uh my guests. And uh is there one or two values that drive your thinking and behavior?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes. Many. There's there's there's I I would say five values that drive what I do. Um the first one is definitely authenticity and uh yeah, showing up authentic authentically, I think that's really important. The second one would be love and compassion. Um I feel really deeply about that, and then I would also say integrity has a big part of you know there is no way um for example, I after deregistering my son, I couldn't go back to doing the job I was doing because to me it wasn't okay to just be contributing to a system I don't believe in anymore. Um so yeah, I think those values are really important and they drive a lot of what I do and hopefully they, you know, I they they show up in my life in in the way I you know I show up as well.
SPEAKER_00Listening to you speak now for the for the last hour, you know, I'm I'm just putting myself in the position of someone who's been listening to you that has been a Fabian, but without your drive and your determination and your your creativity. And uh can you give them some words of hope or encouragement or something that will enable them to be the best version of themselves that they can possibly be, whatever that means to them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think I would say what I always say to people is that none of us are broken. And if we ever believe that we are, or that there's something wrong with us, then that's a lie. It simply is a lie. We are all, like I said previously. Truly dising tunic beautiful ecosystems. And so my invitation would be to start with that and and just truly you know if you're here you deserve to be here. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. I really believe that's the nature of life. So if you're here then you deserve to be here and you have a contribution to make to the beautiful garden called life. And so um you know very often, no, going back to this sort of like the the upfront of sort of being honest with with talking about the things we discussed, I think very often we we remember how important people are or where when they're not in our lives anymore, right? So I think for me it's like um we don't have to wait until this happens, or we don't have to wait until like a moment where people feel like they they can't be here. We all deserve to be here, and we all deserve to be, you know, to be and to feel seen, heard, and held. Um and so for me, hopefully, you know, this hour, you know, whoever is listening, like it that's that would be my message is you deserve to be here, and you have a gift for the world. And so, no. Go and find that, listen to that quiet little voice of your heart, because you know, she knows. Um, and and yeah, go go and share your gift.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Fabian. Um, thank you for taking us on a real uh journey. I feel really privileged to have sat with you now for an hour listening to your life's journey. Uh lots of it was quite surprising uh that you shared with us. Uh, but your passion, your integrity, your determination, uh your way of coming alongside other people to help them be the best people. Yeah, I'm sure listeners are going to get a great deal from this hour listening to you. And I, for one, am looking to looking forward to listening again, because I know I'm going to find other things uh in our talk that were quite inspiring. So, so heartfelt thanks to you for a great time. Is there a last word you would like to say to listeners?
SPEAKER_01No, just thank you. Thank you for and thank you to you as well, Neil. Um, as a podcaster myself, I don't really, I don't think I've ever shared my my story, life story in the way that I just have. So um, yeah, thank you for this sort of like retrospective. And uh and I think for the listeners, if um if anybody resonates with with what I've shared and you know, um particularly if you feel like I was saying, like if unlike me you don't feel like you you know where to turn or what to do, then just reach out and and say hello.
SPEAKER_00And they can find you on LinkedIn, can't they? Can't they? Anywhere else, have you got a website?
SPEAKER_01So I've got a website called flourishingeducation.co.uk so they can find there and obviously listen to some of the podcast conversations, including our podcast conversation. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that was a little while ago now.
SPEAKER_01It was it was a while ago, but it's all about yeah, so I must relisten. Yeah, exactly. Why not?
SPEAKER_00It was a big thank you ever so much. Uh listeners, I I'm sure you've been inspired by Fabienne's uh talk uh uh today. Um, thank you for joining us, and thank you, Fabienne, again. Heartfelt thanks for that. That was great. And listeners, I look forward to being with you on the next podcast. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye.