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Add To Cart: Australia’s eCommerce Show
Inside Culture Kings: How They Train, Motivate and Keep Gen Z Talent | #574
Emma Grasso, Director of People and Culture at Culture Kings, is redefining what it means to lead a fast-growing, high-energy ecommerce team. From streetwear retail floors to global expansion under AKA Brands, she’s steering one of Australia’s most iconic youth brands through cultural change, while proving that having great people in your team is just as vital as having a great product.
Today, we’re discussing:
- How Culture Kings evolved from a founder-led business into a global team without losing its edge
- Why Emma believes “disruption creates opportunity” and how to manage change in high-growth environments
- What Gen Z really wants from work (and how to keep them engaged)
- How AI and short-form content are transforming training, learning and hiring
- Why collaboration and empathy are the underrated superpowers of ecommerce teams
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Well, I think culture most certainly has to come to brand DNA. I think taking out the pressure of loyalty and you must cookie cutter with us is, yeah, I think you really ought to humanize the chaos and be like, I get it. Working well with others is an underestimated work skill.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, it's Nathan Bush or Bushy, joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia. I think one of the trickiest things that any founder-led e-commerce business can go through is actually moving away from the founder into a place where there might be managers or separate teams that aren't necessarily all under the founder's control. And if there was any instance of that transformation and that change, and I can think of no better example of a business who has been through that transition than Culture Kings. We're going to dive into that story today and how they address that transformation, but through a people first lens. I'm sure we all know Culture Kings. They are one of Australia's biggest streetwear and lifestyle brands, grown by Simon Beard, who has been on the podcast multiple times now, but they are known for their hype drops, their music, and their sport field retail experiences. They have eight flagship stores across Australia, New Zealand, and in the US. And they've really reshaped what retail can be. But beyond the lights, the music, and the sneakers, there is a culture that has to evolve at the same pace, both in-store and in head office. And that's Emma's job. Emma Grasso is the director of people and culture at Culture Kings. She's led transformation through hypergrowth. She's helped merge founder-led creativity with corporate systems and built people-first programs that help both retail and e-commerce staff thrive through the change. Before Culture Kings, Emma helped scale pedal and pup and worked across AKA brands global portfolio. So she's seen inside multiple e-commerce businesses and multiple teams at once. We thought we'd take the time on this very special episode of Add to Cart to focus less so on the technology, but bring us back to the people side. Because as you founders and you managers know, technology is often within our control. It's the people side that often keeps us awake at night. And we probably don't give it enough attention. So in this conversation, we talk with Emma about how to scale culture globally without losing what makes your brand unique. We talk about engaging Gen Z employees and try and separate the media hype from actually what they enjoy in work. And we talk about turning training into content that your people actually want to engage with. This isn't just a fluffy HR talk. We wanted to dive into some of the tips and the techniques that Emma has to keep her team motivated and performing at the highest level. Massive thanks as always to our friends at Shopify and Clavio for powering Add Descartes, not only on this episode, but in all our episodes. Without further ado, let's get into it. Here's my chat with Emma Grasso, Director of People and Culture at Culture Kings. Emma, welcome to Ad Descartes.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much, Nathan. So good to connect with you.
SPEAKER_00:So great to have you here. We were connected by Justin, who's president of Culture Kings here in Australia. And he said, you've got to meet Emma. And in the back of my mind, I was like, we just haven't done a people or a culture exploration yet on Ad Descartes. And I couldn't think of a better business to do it with. And he says that if there's anyone you've got to speak to, it's Emma. So I'm stoked to have you here. Thank you for joining.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you so much. Yeah, so excited to talk about the people and culture game. And yeah, he's just been an awesome person to work with. So glad he connected the dots.
SPEAKER_00:Well, he's setting you up here because Culture Kings, it's probably the most intimidating name from a HR perspective. When you're talking about culture, you're pretty much putting it out there that you're the best in the world at it. When it comes to culture, when people say, and I find this all the time in interviews, can you describe to me the culture there? How do you define culture?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Well, I think culture most certainly has to come to brand DNA. Like, you know, what's the value? What are the purposes? Like, what's like the competencies that we think are pretty amazing that an employee should really exude? You know, what's that vision? Why are we in the marketplace and why are we doing this is um probably the best way to explain culture. So in a culture kings mindset, the beautiful thing about them is they have such a great tangible DNA. They really focus on music, sport, and fashion. And with that, you know, I suppose music, sport, and fashion, we consume that on the daily. So it's such a great tangible that everyone can connect with immediately. And with that, I feel like if you're wanting to grow or scale that culture and it's around those three divisibles, you're always kind of coming back to the ground zero position together and being like, well, you know, this is why we're here. We're excited to do this. So yeah, I would say culture kind of really has to lean into like what's the brand DNA? What are the brand values and how do we exude that out in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_00:So do you have to be cool to work there?
SPEAKER_01:No, it's it's it's wide and varied, but I have to admit, it seems to be a magnet for cool. There are a lot of very, very cool people walking around for sure, but it's a good mix. It's a good mix.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I get intimidated walking into your stores. I'm like, I I really love the experience, and it's an amazing experience. I'm like, I'm not cool enough to be here.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no. Actually, we we often um get a lot of people from IT and finance, and they're so lovely. We'll always send like a bit of an email, like, you know, you can dress however you like, nice and casual in the office. And you know, first day they'll be in like a suit and a tie, or maybe like a shirt and chinos, and then they look around, they're like, Oh, I'm gonna come in my added ass trackies tomorrow. And I was like, Yeah, like so.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Casual and cool. So you can be you can be individual.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So obviously, been a lot of change in Culture Kings over the last, do we call it five years, from a founder-led business into a growing, maturing business, probably more into the omnichannel world than it was before. How have you seen culture change over that time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um it's been a pretty interesting ride. And exactly what you're saying, I think when you come from a founder-led organization, you know, there's a lot more, I suppose, bandwidth to be experimental. But now that we've kind of been acquired by aka brands, you know, we have a lot more, I suppose, rigor in how we approach scalability. The decisions kind of have to go through a little bit more of a collective of people beforehand. And so I quite like the change because it's sort of like a little bit more on growth, scalability. How does that look in the global uh landscape? And aka, you know, really talked to being an accelerator of making brands, you know, kind of penetrate the American market. And then after that, the global market. So I suppose for a lot of people, the biggest change was like, oh wow, there's so many more cooks in the kitchen kind of putting how we do things. But with that, there's so many benefits because, you know, we we have a global team now. We've got the team in the US. So you get a lot more thought partners in the space. And I feel like with the US, like they have such an incredible talent market there because they're just such a bigger country. So there are real like thought leaders in that aka team that, you know, kind of come to you as a consultant or a thought partner to help you like really think about how to scale globally. So one of their best trips is the supply chain. We um get to share with our brand portfolio partners a 3PL over there. So it's cost effective for us all to kind of start distributing to customers there. So you start to see exponential growth really quickly. So um I would probably say the change management has been a lot because it's a new way of working. But with that, there's been just so much more opportunity. And other cool parts is, you know, you can have a little bit more like lateral progression. So I came from Pet Pup, one of the other brands, and moved across the Culture Kings. And I think that's also cool. It's not just vertical progression that you can get. You can kind of be like, oh, like what's our Princess Poly guys doing over there? How are they approaching this? And you have a bit of a think tank around you, which is a really great part of the ride.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How do you connect all of those teams? So when you've got teams in the US or maybe cross-functional, cross-brand teams, do you have any rituals in place to allow that sharing to happen?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we've got um like quite a few. There's a really great all brands, they call it the all hands kind of meeting. And uh yeah, we'll get like uh their CEO from AKA, Kiran, he'll kind of host it. And then each uh brand president gets to get up and talk about, you know, what they've done in the quarter as a brand. But I love that that meeting because yeah, you can really start to ask brands, like, you know, maybe it's like, ah, Polly did TikTok shop. And then we're like, oh, we're about to look into TikTok shop. Like, you know, how did that go? Like, what are you kind of doing in terms of your content building? How much time pressure is it on, you know, content creators? And yeah, you can kind of really uh pressure test things, which is great.
SPEAKER_00:And then within people It's a bit of an unfair advantage, isn't it, to have that inside information across all different brands doing similar things?
SPEAKER_01:Totally, totally. Actually, it's it's kind of true. Yeah, they've got that slogan of um we're better together, but I gotta admit, we really are. Like you're like, oh, I'm definitely gonna pinch that. That's a great idea.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what do you notice in the differences of teams? Can you walk into a pedal and pup team or a Princess Poly team or a Culture Kings team and go, oh yeah, it's different, or does it still feel the same culturally?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, Nathan, a night and day difference. It's amazing. And that's what's so cool. Like, I love that each brand has exactly what we're saying, their own DNA, their own approach to things. So, you know, I kind of uh came from pedal and pup, which is like a predominantly female workforce, you know, the customer demographics kind of around that 30, you know, like older 28 to 30 kind of year old woman, so kind of like, you know, in floral dresses. And so I there's a lot of pink and beautiful florals and a real cheerleader kind of um ethos there. And then yeah, I came into culture kings and there's like trap music playing and people who are like, what up, fam? Like, you know, just like straight up. I was like, I felt like I was Alice in Wonderland first. And I'm like, oh man, like I gotta get a really wide wardrobe here where I can wear my girly dresses and then like fully send come in like fully in streetwear.
SPEAKER_00:And oh, that's cool. What made you make the changeover? What was it that inspired you to move to that whole new different way?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've sort of um come a little from streetwear. Like I worked at IncU for quite some time.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I love Doug and the team.
SPEAKER_01:What Doug and the team, they're the best. Yes, yeah, they were awesome. So yeah, I worked um there for about seven years.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I was So you've been cool forever. You're you're all right.
SPEAKER_01:It's just the brands that I connect to. It's the halo effect of cool. I'm just a good customer. That's that's why you're cool.
SPEAKER_00:You're just there for the staff discounts.
SPEAKER_01:I don't like always. We always joke that you know, sometimes I feel like I'm circulating my pay straight back into the company. Like, thank you for paying me, and here's my money back.
SPEAKER_00:Here it is back. Thank you. I'll take your clothes.
SPEAKER_01:Literally.
SPEAKER_00:What was the moment that that you were like, I've got to make that move?
SPEAKER_01:It was pretty amazing. It was an invitation, really, by AKA. They were just sort of, I suppose it was a similar trajectory that Pedal had just done, where the founder had left and uh, you know, we were kind of working alongside AKA. And so it was really a part of that, that change management piece, you know, straight after the the founder had left and how do we look at um the new horizon? So um, yeah, it was pretty cool. AKA just approached me and said, Hey, you know, Culture Kings is going through the same thing. You know, would you consider coming across? And for a while it was shared services, which was great. So um really being able to kind of, yeah, kind of connect with them and understand, like, you know, the situation of change management and you know, it's And when you talk shared services, for anyone who's never worked in this model, we had this at Super Retail Group and always shared services.
SPEAKER_00:And I know it comes with its challenges and its opportunities as well. But at that point, were you shared services around people, tech, and other things, or was it just a people shared services?
SPEAKER_01:It was just for people, yeah, shared services, which was great. So yeah, that went for quite some time. But then after a while, it was kind of decided a little bit on the culture king side, hey, I think we kind of need you here full time, which I was sort of like kind of true at at this point in time. It's probably great to just sort of be a hundred percent to really embed the change. So yeah, I think it was around nine months of share. So this is nearly a year, just shy of a year, and then um made the move over to streetwear all day.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. So when it came to that massive change, what was the biggest challenge for you from a people perspective? Where did you start?
SPEAKER_01:I think I suppose really getting everyone on the journey of change is probably the hardest part. So I think for me, I kind of looked at it and I said, I've really got to garnier the trust of everyone here. Like I'm sort of probably the face of change right now. I've come from an another aka brand, you know. So I really took a moment to kind of really get to know the team and just say, hey, I know what this moment feels like and it's a bit unsettling and I get everything kind of feels a little upside down. Um, but I've kind of I've done this before and I'm we're gonna hold hands and get this happening. So um I kind of asked, you know, around like I had moments to just meet up with people in meetings, um, a lot of the managers and senior managers first, but then hit the ground, you know, and just meet the people on the floors. And I thought, you know, with people in culture, you gotta do a lot of, I think front, you you do a lot in the background that people don't know about often. Yeah. I kind of thought, well, these are the things that we'll have to do is more the front-facing stuff. So having a presence, you know, being communicative. So I kind of started up a couple of rituals, like you kind of said immediately, which was weekly Slack Blasts. We kind of all connect on Slack. I noticed that was the most engaging platform for everyone. And I think what a lot of people were saying is we just it's a new land. We used to have, you know, an amazing president like Simon, who's such an orator who gets everyone to do every day. So it was like, how do we communicate now in a new land? And I thought, kind of true, like there's so many business updates going on and people's stuff. So every week I do I still do it. It's called the weekly slack blast, and it's like a notification. It does shout outs to people, but it was great, you know, hearing people's side hustle stories, even we got a podcast, like there's so many that are like prolific, like music side hustle gigs and stuff. So, you know, you kind of I was mixing like, hey, there's a new person starting, they're gonna start in the IT team. This is a bit about them, you know, these are things happening in the office. But did everybody know that so-and-so is in a rock band and like fully got like, you know, just a little, or hey, check out this podcast that, you know, so-and-so is doing. And I think that started to marinate with everyone, like, hey, we're in this together, it's made up of individuals and you know, just learning about each other a little bit more. So yeah, first strategy was yeah, connect and communicate. Then second strategy is really taking people on the ride of change. You know, what does a program that's nice and standardized and stabilizing for everything, everyone look like? Why processes can be supportive infrastructure as well.
SPEAKER_00:I could imagine there's lots of people, a lot of specialists in there, especially under a founder culture. And Simon is just one of those lightning in a bolt founders where he let the good people go and back their ideas and let that happen. And then all of a sudden you're saying, look, we don't have a Simon anymore. We're kind of one team and we're all responsible for it and we're taking this forward. And there's a bit more process, and there's a, you know, we're coming together on this. I could imagine that there'd be some people like, that's not for me. I'm out. Did you find that those people self-identified, or was there work to be done as you switch? Because the reason I'm asking is because I think a lot of businesses are going through this, especially online businesses who grew to a certain point and now are going different channels, getting bigger, more diverse teams, maybe international teams, and are going through this change. So it's like, do you let people self-identify out, or do you actually have to manage that change?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's a mix of both. And natural attrition is always going to happen with change. And I think every business kind of knows, hey, you know, with change management, people will probably stick around for six months. You know, they're kind of like, what's the new normal? And then you probably see once change gets implemented that there's probably a six-month time frame where you'll start seeing natural attrition. But the good thing when people self-appoint is I always normalize it, hey, it's a job, and like you have the best resume. And we are going to give you a glowing reference because it is so fine to be like, this is my stop. This just isn't me. And I think you've really got to normalize that's the natural order. That's a career is a bilder bear, you know, like an adventure. Like, and I think taking out the pressure of loyalty and you must stay and you must cookie cutter with us is yeah, I think you really ought to humanize the chaos and be like, I get it.
SPEAKER_00:I I love that because I always talk about careers in terms of, and this is just because I'm a bogan, around football contracts, because like players sign for two or three years, and it's kind of similar to what we see in jobs. You see two or three years, and then you make there's always that natural spot where people have that moment of, do I want to do this again? Like you get to that two or three year itch and you're like, Am I sticking around? And then you kind of recommit again. And that's totally normal. How do you define then loyalty from both sides, I guess? And how far does loyalty go in an employer-employee relationship?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think loyalty is when you're in the team and you're in the game, you're doing your best. You're you're doing the best to your team members around you, you're doing your your best for your career progression, you're doing the best for the business. But I think loyalty remains when you leave. Like we were talking about IncU, Peddle and Pop, they're like forever. I love those jobs. I I didn't leave them because I was unhappy at all. I just, you know, it was a natural end for me as well. Maybe a bigger career opportunity, a location change, whatever it is. And I'm still wildly loyal to those guys, you know. Like I'm like saw them on the sidelines. So I think loyalty can definitely extend post-the life of your employment with a business. And again, I just feel like, yeah, we've got to normalize that that a business doesn't owe you anything other than like, oh well, I mean, it does, it owes a lot. It owes a lot of um.
SPEAKER_00:But while you're there, while you're there, you're both committed to it, but there is obviously change that's going to happen, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Am I assuming that a majority of your workforce might be younger than other businesses?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we do have like there is a a wider portion. Most certainly when you look at the retail demographics, they keep us nice and young, like our retail stores, which is true. So um, yeah, we definitely have a wider demographic between the ages of 18 to 28 is a big part of our workforce. And then you've got your 30s, and they're a lot more in the HQ, then you've got your higher age groups as well, smattered around. Not as bad.
SPEAKER_00:And so you're in a great position then to give us some insights around motivations for do we call them Gen Z? Are they still Gen Z at that at that age? And we hear a lot, media love beating it up that they're so different that they have high expectations, high standards. I always look at it with a grain of salt because I'm like, I remember what I was like as an 18-year-old. I was nothing like I am today. And what are your observations around the younger generation of the workforce coming through? Are they actually different to what you and I might have been like when we were their age?
SPEAKER_01:I'm with you. I think you've always got to unpick exactly what you're saying. When you're younger, you are a bit more susceptible to well, sometimes it's their first job. So you got to give them a lot of slack because it's like, hey, it's a professional workplace and it's sort of a little different from probably other realms that they're coming from. But my observations are you they're just so used to information all the time. And it's quick and it's fast, and they kind of just need information. And if you can get them on board with the information prior to tampering or touching too much, they're pretty much on board. I definitely would say they're a lot more connected to the macro effects of the world. Like I think you know, they have a very strong social conscience and they get that from a business, and I think that's a really important thing to maintain with them to showcase that you're always keeping that front and center as well for them. But I I think they're great. I think every generation offers such a great piece of the pie. And then you can kind of mutually respect what each generation can offer, that's when you really capitalise on the best juice from every age demographic.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I love your point there around bite-sized information and giving it to them when they want it, when they need it. I remember being in corporate, you know, having to do those mandatory modular training where you look at some really dodgy cartoon pictures and you've got to answer multiple choice questions and you've got to sit down for two hours to get through the modules, otherwise you won't get your bonus. What kind of communication methods have you seen really work and cut through, especially with that retail demographic who might not be in there full time? Like, how do you get your messages across so that they land?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so true. We have really great like digital outputs, like especially what you're saying, learning and development is yeah, it can be so corporate and so boring. So we generate a lot of our own training, which is really good. So it's, you know, a familiar face doing the training. And we like to do a lot of like hype reels. Like you'll probably see with Culture Kings, it's a lot of hype reels around on our Instagram and and all of that. So we kind of do hype reels with a little bit of the art learning and development. So it's kind of cool. We're doing a new one right now where we're getting some of the best sellers, um, the top talent in the retail stores to kind of go through selling standards in the store. So we're sort of seeing short, sharp videos are always the best way to go about it. Like nothing too lengthy, nothing too too much of a time burden, I suppose, is is probably the best way to cut through.
SPEAKER_00:So you're almost treating your training materials like a social platform, essentially.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think we want to keep doing it that way. There's some stuff that's dry, but you're like, I can't mess this up. We've just got to talk about it in a very formal fashion. But yeah, things like selling standards, you know, we're doing a brand reset soon. And yeah, it's just kind of cool to be like, yeah, let's make it like a film clip. Like, let's make it really engaging and like, yeah, reflect what we do on our platforms, Instagram, like, do all that, but in a training format. I think another exciting thing is looking at AI capability with thing. Like, I don't know if you've seen, um, but you know, learning languages now it has an AI person that can talk with you and Yeah. So we're like, oh, because you know, you've always got to do a bit of a pop quiz, especially um for compliance, like in this scenario, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_00:So talk us before we go down this path, because I think this is a really fascinating path, talk us through learning languages for those who might not have come across that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, like, if you're um like learning a foreign language, I don't know if you've seen a lot of this. I mean, I'm a lover of speaking other languages, you know. Had to learn, you know, through very old school kind of methods, but there's all this new technology where it has an AI teacher with you and it's conversating with you. So you might be trying to say a sentence in Spanish, and the AI teacher is having that conversation and making you, yeah, pronounce the words properly and not making you so like look at it as a script. And they kind of say when you're learning languages, it's a lot more visceral and it sinks in more when you're not reading off a script, when it is live.
SPEAKER_00:Which is why we learn better when we're actually in countries than trying to learn it before you go. Yeah. Because you're getting the emotion and everything and the context behind everything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. It's really cool kind of seeing all of that data coming through. And so we've already been kicking that around a little of like, how do we capitalise on AI for our learning and development? Like, you know, how cool would it be that instead of it's like tick this pop quiz after, that it could be some sort of really um interactive learning where it can kind of really embed the learning for them.
SPEAKER_00:Are there any tools that you've come across in that AI space that you're really loving, even if you haven't implemented them properly yet, but you're experimenting with that you think show huge potential with changing how we train our teams?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think most certainly the learning and development space is going to have a real interesting shake up. So I've got a real keen interest in that. Other AI angles, there's also recruitment as well, which is interesting. So I think um, you know, when you're kind of screening a lot of people and it's just sort of getting a litmus test of how they're going, they can do it a little bit more automatedly now, where it's not like somebody has to sit in and do the screening questions. The questions get sent to them digitally, they get to film it in the comforts of their own time, and then you kind of get that first interview digitally sent to you.
SPEAKER_00:That's interesting. I've been on a few Reddit threads lately, which is not always the best place to get your information, but talking, debating about this actually, like going for first interviews and having a digital interview where there's actually no humans. And some people are like, actually, it's really good because there's no time wasted. I know what I've got to answer, I'm in the comfort of my home. It's great, works for me, works for them. Others people are like, well, if they can't take the time to meet with me, I'm not gonna meet with them. How do you balance it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's so true. I think it's a really tricky, uncharted territory, isn't it, for all of us? I think if we do employ a little bit more of that automation, we get to see more people quickly. Because if you think about, oh, if I have to sit into like seven interviews, that's probably seven hours. You know, that's a full day of work sometimes. So I think sometimes when you can kind of see it as we're probably going to be seeing more people through using that automation than us manually doing it at all times. Then of course the second, third interview, we'd always want it in person, on site, you know, walking around beating the team. But that screen test, it's almost like I would see it as an added advantage for people. Hey, you get to make your resume speak a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:I was about to say it's better than relying on a cover letter that doesn't get read and a resume that doesn't really represent you. Are you a cover letter reader? I'm gonna put that to you.
SPEAKER_01:Gosh, depends a little on the role. If we're finding it hard, I would say on average, I don't really read that many because it can take a lot of time. But if we're finding it hard, I I love to look at the resume and yeah, just really see their trajectory more so than anything. Because I feel like you get that in the interviews. Like you get the, they get to really talk through that. But if we are having a little bit of trouble finding the right candidate, then I would definitely move to cover letters and really see it. But I wouldn't say it's the primary thing that I'm looking at. I think that would be a secondary support kind of paper.
SPEAKER_00:When I was in recruitment, I used to love cover letters purely just because of what it told me about the person, like whether they put personality into it or whether you could tell that they were like trying to be all professional and like putting heaps of buzzwords in it. I'm like, not necessarily what you put in there, but how you approach a cover letter tells me a lot about you. And you can pick that up pretty quickly without reading the whole thing. What's the secret to a good resume then?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think the secret to a good resume is I feel like for us, because we get so many applications, which is so awesome, like to cut through it, I think when it's formatted in a compelling manner, you know, where I'm like, oh great, I can see like a blurb at the top, like I can see a summary, I can see their trajectory of what they've done is always like the first thing. I'm like, obviously, so easy to read and digest. But then secondly, of course, you're kind of looking at, oh, what sort of industry experience have they got, you know, what brands have they been with. But I have to admit, I kind of also like, I know what you mean, I like the summary because it's you're kind of looking for attributes as well, aren't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:A little bit of personality flavor, but I feel like it can be done in a nice summary up the top is probably the best way to go about it for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So really treat that resume from your perspective as some sort of summary, some sort of personality, paragraph, couple of sentences, whatever it is. But you're really looking for that career trajectory, that career story that you can see come through. And I suppose that would be hard though if you've got people who are 18, 19, 20 looking for their first jobs, right?
SPEAKER_01:That's true. Yeah, that's a different tactic altogether for sure.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, see, that's when you probably would look to a bit of the cover letters, you know, where it's like, okay, I need to look for another support here to kind of get more information.
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SPEAKER_01:I don't know if it's so much the the likes. Like I've worked in companies and I'm like, I'm probably that's I'm not their customer, but I can add so much value. So I don't know if I would be too swayed by the interests, but most certainly, like I suppose their workplace attributes or their approach to things. Like I think uh, you know, e-commerce and retail, it's ever changing. It's so rapidly, you know, it's it's a fast-paced kind of environment. So I think for me, I'd be looking for things like, you know, how flexible they are to change. Are they self-starters? Are they okay with innovation? Like, I think they would be more the attributes, yeah. Kind of leaning on a little, I suppose, our brand values, which is like we look for innovation, you know, it's a pull forward like kind of uh situation, like just experiment, give it a go, kind of thing, I think is a really great mindset to have. So I think it's more those attributes more so than interests.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So mindset, especially when it comes to e-com and digital. A lot of our listeners will be in this space and recruiting constantly. And I know most e-com operators and founders, recruiting is not something they enjoy at all because it's high stakes, high time, and it's just tricky, right? Like you're always self-doubting yourself all the time because you get such a limited time with this person that you're paying a lot of money and you're putting such big hopes in. When you said then around you're looking for mindsets like being able to be innovative, being able to adapt with change, being a self-starter. How do you test that in say you've got two or three interviews? Do you have any kind of go-to questions or activities that you do to try and get inside that mindset in a short amount of time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think there are, you know, I really I love recruitment. I think it's one of my favorite parts of uh the people.
SPEAKER_00:You're a sicko.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I really like it because, well, one you get to meet, you get to wind your professional connects. And like, there's been some people that I'm like, oh man, they didn't get it, but I'm not gonna forget them. I'm not gonna forget that resume. And I tell you what, there's been times where I'm like, hey, remember you said to give you a call if a role came up that was perfect for you, the time is now, you know, sort of thing. So I kind of see it as a really great opportunity to just keep meeting with professional connects with or without the success of getting that job. And I think when you have that open mindset of like this person could fill it another gap at another time is also in the back of my mind.
SPEAKER_00:You're putting the jigsaw pieces together.
SPEAKER_01:Literally, yeah, which is always good. But yeah, I I love it too because there's so many different departments. Like if we're interviewing for IT or finance, you know, you're gonna be swinging a little bit more to the hard skill kind of questions of like can they kind of do do the things? And then yeah, there's uh the soft skills after, but then there's other departments like marketing and and merchandise, and you know, that just has a really different kind of interview cadence and approach. But um, yeah, I most certainly will ask questions. I I quite like the experiential questions, and I know they're like, oh no, give me a time. But you know, you it could almost be too like, or like think of a scenario, like how would you go about this? I think when you kind of offer people real life examples of them talking through their crot or their processes is where I feel like you can really find the source and things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm the same. I'm interviewing at the moment for some roles, actually in New York, for a client that I'm working with. And I don't know the market that well, like nowhere near as well as I know Australia. So when they reference all the companies that they've worked with, I recognize a lot of the big ones, but then some of the small to mid clients, small to mid companies they're working at, I don't know. I don't have a lot of background, but being able to frame it in those questions of all right, say you're in this situation and we now need to shift our social media presence from this to this, how would you go about it? Talk me through your thinking process and almost map it out. And so it's almost like you're work shopping in an interview rather than questioning.
SPEAKER_01:Agreed. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I love those questions. And you know, like I was sort of saying, you're going off script then, you know, you're kind of like, oh, I don't have the stats and figures of my achievements. It's more like, yeah, how how would you approach in this scenario? Like, yeah, how do you apply yourself as a person within this?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How are you finding the e-commerce and digital talent market at the moment? Are you finding that when roles do come up that you get a lot of applicants, that they're easy to fill, or are you finding that there's not a lot out there?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness. I tell you what, there are some roles that it's like, oh man, it's slim pickings, like you know, and I think with e-commerce too, there's just so many different titles, like technology will change and then a whole vocation like stream changes with it. So I would probably say it's definitely growing in Australia, which I'm loving. And for a while there, it was a little tough to recruit talent. You know, we're based in Brisbane, um, our HQ. And for a long, a long time, you know, we had a lot of head officers, a lot of fashion companies are definitely down south in Sydney and Melbourne. And you know, sometimes if you're interviewing candidates, it would be a bit of a hard sell to say, hey, we're kind of based here, the preference would be up here. I feel like there's been such a shift. Like, I feel like Queensland's like having its time in the sun. Like the recruitment pool is so much more open because there's so many people that are really dying to move up post-COVID, which has been such an advantage for us. So I've seen a real swing post-COVID on how much better the talent pool is because there's a lot of people really open to migrating up here. And as a result, there's a lot of great head offices, like there's a lot of awesome fashion houses that are opening up within Brisbane. So it's a real growing market. So I would say it's definitely gotten easier, probably in the last five years. But in saying that, there are some rules that are just so niche and it's a little tricky. There are some, specifically, I'd say in digital performance, are always a little trickier to land within our landscape.
SPEAKER_00:With more talent coming into the market. Culture Kings already has a great brand, but that brand has evolved over time. Do you have to do much in terms of employee branding to tell people, hey, this is who we are, this is what we're about? Like even in terms of the scale and the size and the markets you're in, like you're not a business that stands still. Do you have an employee branding kind of initiative?
SPEAKER_01:I think that's definitely evolving. Like we're definitely doing a little reset. And I think because we've kind of come out of a fair bit of change. It had been a little hard to define it, but I feel like we're at that point now where I'm like, oh great, yeah, we can really start to define what that new land looks like and approach it quite strategically now. But for a while it was a little insular. We had to sort of remake the source, I think, a little. But it's definitely ready to get socialized.
SPEAKER_00:I'm keen to know from you, Emma, how do you stay motivated? How do you continue your learning and upskilling? Like given that you've obviously been in this sector for a while now, pedal and pop, interculture kings, same global brand. How do you stay motivated and pushing yourself further? Do you have anything that you challenge yourself with to keep going?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um I get really inspired by the company and what they're standing for and the people around me. So I always laugh. I always talk about reverse mentorship as well. Like we were sort of saying, the Gen Zs, they've got a wealth of knowledge on what's cool, what's what's trending, how do they like to be communicated with sort of things. So I feel like um always being connected to the team, always being connected to where we're driving always inspires me. Like, oh, okay, we're evolving, we're really moving into this as an area. I I love a good survey.
SPEAKER_00:So I love You're that person, you're the one sending the surveys.
SPEAKER_01:I know it was great. But uh yeah, we do like a great annual survey, and I I build a lot of our strategy on on feedback from the team, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_00:But just on that point, what are you sending that survey? So is it going out once every year?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a big one. It's once a year and it's it's everything. It's about their sense of belonging, their engagement, how their work relationships are, how their manager relationship is. It's like a lot of micro, how's their team going, but then macro, how's the business going for you? I really love it. It really gives a lot of great intel. And from that, I love it too, because it really leans to how do you want to be rewarded? How do you want to be recognized? Why don't we score well here? How can we do this better? And so after that, we do little forums, we get little coalitions. Yeah. Coalitions. Yeah, like, okay, like, and then we'll say, hey, we did great in these scores, which is awesome. What are the major call-outs that you think we're doing well here? And then we're not doing so well in these scores. Like, what can we do? And everyone think tanks and throws it in, and then we embed it into our strategy. So I think you know, continuous improvement and learning for the environment internally is really important.
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SPEAKER_01:US though, right? Yeah, every time we do something, we I always start with, you spoke and we listened. And it's because of the full survey.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Reinforcing it, but it truly does come from that, which is And are you running them through like a culture amp or are you creating them yourself?
SPEAKER_01:We're really lucky we've got a pretty good HRIS. So we uh do it through through our own internal um HRIS.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. No, it's a really good ritual to get into. Love it. Do you do anything around 360 degree reviews, like especially for senior managers? Because I've done that process a few times and I always love it, but it's always very confronting to get feedback from those above you, in your team, in other departments, to hear it unfiltered from those all around you. Do you do them?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, we do. And I'm with you, like I kind of always say feedback is a gift, and we've got to keep reminding ourselves of that because it's an invitation to just look at an opportunity of getting better kind of thing. But yeah, we um most certainly in the first six-month probation, if there's a senior leadership team member that's joined at the halfway mark of their probation, we'll send it out, you know, to everybody just to sort of see, hey, you know, you still got a couple of months. Let's um, you know, what's what's the team feeling and how do we get you to being optimum and being the best?
SPEAKER_00:So a 360 at your three-month mark. There you go, straight in.
SPEAKER_01:But it's kind of for the upper levels, not for yeah, it's a little bit really touching a lot of strategy and a lot of cross-functional collaborators. We just see it as an opportunity of like, hey, how's it how's it going out there? kind of thing. But it's always dealt with very empathetically. And we understand too perceptions and you know, intentions can be different. You know, someone's intention of how they're exuding themselves might be met with a different perception. So it's only when you start seeing maybe trends where it's like, ah, there's a collective uh response here. But it's kind of like, hey, it's a choose your own adventure, you know, that feedback you can take it on and really fly with it. We're seeing this as the opportunity, but also to, you know, if you're like, oh, I want to work about this in a different way, you know, we we let them make that decision, but we kind of guide them on what we think is the best opportunity and how we can kind of, you know, help them get there, help them get to that point.
SPEAKER_00:I think you're absolutely right. It's usually the most honest and direct way to get the feedback that you need. So I love when people take it on themselves to go, oh, I'm a bit stuck here, I'm just not unsure. I'm gonna initiate a 360 degree on myself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's so brave. We also for annual reviews, we also do it, and it's a little bit if you have a lot of cross-collaboration points, you don't have to be a senior leadership team member. We might do a 360 there where it's like, hey, you're touching lots of teams. How's it going? So yeah, it's done very empathetically though. But I get you, they they can be tough, can't they?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's all in our heads, right? Like we no one you say feedback's a gift, no one really likes feedback, but in the long term, in the long term, it's actually the most helpful thing you can get. But in the moment, you're like, I just want to do it my way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's not true. Well, poll surveys are great for us too. It's like sometimes we're scoring, but I'm like, but how much I've I mean, I've tried so hard. Like we said, I get it. I I totally get it. But I suppose that's how you evolve, isn't it? Really? It's sort of like, yeah, how's it really landing with everyone? Is it's it's nice to be aware.
SPEAKER_00:It is. Based on everything you've seen, like you said, you speak to so many people every day who are and having career conversations constantly. Out of the top performers that you've seen or worked with, can you name two or three attributes that you see continually succeed in where people want to go? Like, what are the most important attributes to keep in mind for your career, do you think?
SPEAKER_01:I read this quote and I completely agree with it. It said, working well with others is an underestimated work skill. And I truly agree with that. I think if you have the gift of collaborating well with people in a way that's supportive, you're on side with them, you're seeing each other as a team, and you're really trying to kick that ball into the goal at the same place and the same time, I think is a really excellent measure of success. So I think being able to collaborate with your team is it's really, I think, vital for success in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_00:I had this dad moment the other day is that we were packing up to go on holidays. And this does have a point, it's related to your point. But I had this moment where Sarah and I were rushing around the house to get things in the car and the kids had stuff everywhere, and it was pure dad moment. And I was like, guys, get off your butt, come and help, pack the car, get your stuff sorted, get your room cleaned, and then we're sitting in the car on the way to the holiday. So this is a great way to start the holiday. And I was like, guys, if I could give you one bit of advice, if you just want to have a good life and a good career, just be helpful. Just find a way to be helpful. And I was like, God, if I was listening to me as a kid, I'd like to shut up. Okay, like turn the music up. But like it was just one of those moments where I was like, you could be highly skilled, you could be lowly skilled, but if you just find ways to be helpful, you'll usually find your way through. And I get that people come from different levels of privilege and and all that plays a part. But being helpful, I think, is a really important skill to what to what you were saying.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I'm really with you on that. You can have all the hard skills and proficiencies in the world. But yeah, if you're if you're finding it hard to work with your team or, you know, your manager or like, you know, you're not finding that resolution to be like, hey, how do we I don't know, personalities are tricky. I mean, we all know that for sure, but it's the workaround. It's sort of like being like, how do we make this better for both of us?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so apart from being a team player, are there any other attributes that have stood out for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think in e-commerce specifically, I think you do have to have an agility mindset. I just feel like e-commerce is kind of built on disruption. Like supply chains can change in the blink of an eye, but platforms just get burnt. And yeah, like we're saying, it just sort of can really change the strategy. Yeah, you know, consumer behavior can just change. So I think when people are really flexible in e-commerce, of like how do we pivot? Okay, you know, let's move to the next thing, I think is also really helpful. I think too when you're looking at a company that's growing or scaling up, being agile, like, oh, we used to do it this way can kind of really trap people. And it's like it did and it worked, and that's awesome, but it's an organism and we've got to keep growing and like you know, litmus testing if it's still being a successful approach. And if not, it's okay to let it go and we think of a new way, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel there's such a strong tie between agility and empathy as well, because there's like that thing, like if you've been a leader, it's about when you're delivering news, you go, actually, suddenly, all of a sudden, we've got to change the direction, or we've got to change strategy, or there's something I'm throwing on your plate because it's urgent, we've got to do it. And then you kind of get the death stares or you get the grumpiness, and you're like, just this isn't necessarily all my decision. Just have a you know what I mean? And then it goes the other way as well to go as a leader, you've got to understand that you've just disrupted their day and that they thought something was gonna happen. So there's a little bit of two-way empathy that goes with agility for it to work well, and it's not always a skill that's easy to have.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, you're so right. It has to be done with that human approach. Like, yeah, with that, I get it. It's it's a bit tricky, but we've got to bat pattern down, do this together.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Emma, thank you so much. Oh, it's been so fun to nerd out on the people's side of e-commerce with you. What's next for you and the Culture Kings team? What's the next 12 months hold for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, there are so many exciting things going on in Culture Kings. I'm really excited for 2026. Yeah, we've kind of done a bit of a brand reset, which is really exciting. So like we're kind of touching on refining brand values, is going to be a really big one inside the game on how we kind of approach every aspect of the business, quite honestly. So that's really exciting. But in the next 12 months, we're kind of excited. I think a lot of change, I think these are the last parts of a lot of our change management this year. And maybe next year it'll be a bit more of a nothing will change ever again.
SPEAKER_00:Set in stone from here on in. But the big change, the big change.
SPEAKER_01:You're right. I think the foundational work has happened, and now it's almost like the trimmings get to kind of be added next year.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. Oh, I'm so excited for you. It's so great to see a brand like Culture Kings continue the amazing work that Simon did as a founder to get to where it is and now evolve into its new form and its new presence and continue that growth, not just here in Australia, but all over the world. So love seeing it, Emma. It sounds like you're doing a fantastic job with the team. Thank you for sharing your insights on everything People and Everything Culture Kings today.
SPEAKER_01:Such a pleasure, Nathan. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:But I think Emma did a fantastic job of explaining some of the techniques and the tools that she uses when both recruiting and engaging their team. And she was really honest with the true trials and tribulations of managing a workforce that's constantly changing and adapting to where the business needs to go. And I really appreciated that. Here are three lessons that I think any business can take out of that conversation. Number one was teaching like a marketer. I think we've all been through them, the boring LD modules where we're forced to sit through some really bad either acting or PowerPoints or just boring text in order just to tick a tick box. That obviously isn't gonna work for a workforce like Culture Kings. So Emma's approach of treating LD as social media, I think is really interesting. If we put all this effort into entertaining our customers, aren't we doing the same to entertain our employees when they're doing some really critical learning that will impact hundreds, if not thousands, of customers as well? So when we're thinking about important messages or important lessons that we need our team to understand, don't just type it out or put it in a Notion document. Think about how you would want to engage with it. There's absolutely no reason to make it boring. It doesn't have to be a huge production. As Emma said, even having some of the team present it on video with faces that they know and they trust made a huge difference. I think that's a great tip. Number two, the annual survey feedback. It does sound big business, it does sound corporate, but it's so important to have a ritual where every year you are getting data that you can compare year on year on how people feel, whether they are achieving, whether they're engaged, and be able to compare it year on year. Now there's two results that you want to get out of these. There's obviously the results of the survey that you want to understand what the engagement levels are in your organization. But the other thing that you're driving towards is actually an engagement rate for the survey itself. If you're only getting 10 to 20% of your workforce completing the survey, it is not a true representation. You actually can't take a lot of action from it. So there is a trick about getting that input year after year, and that means that you've got to take action and you've got to communicate after the survey is done. It means saying to Emma's point, yes, we hear you, you spoke, we listened, here's what we're going to do. And I love Emma's idea of getting coalitions around to take action and to brainstorm ideas to lift those survey results even further last year. By showing the team that you're taking this seriously and that things will change in response to the feedback that they've given. One, you're going to get more people engaging next year because it's going to be worthwhile for them. And they're probably going to be more honest and forthright with their responses, knowing that it will have an impact. Really important. And the third thing that I was surprised by Emma's forthrightness around was bringing AI into the hiring process. Now, Emma was really forthright around saying that yes, in the first round of interviews, on some positions, we use digital pre-screening interviews where there isn't a human from outside present. It means that they get to interview more candidates, they get a better understanding of who they are, and then they can spend more time in the in-person second and third interviews. I know there's two schools of thought here, and you've got to do what's comfortable for you and your business. But if you are actually struggling to get through all your potential candidates in unearthing those diamonds amongst all the applications you get, then leaning on AI and leaning on digital for those pre-screening questions will actually be a lot better than relying on CVs and regimes alike. Obviously, know the risks associated, but don't be too scared of changing up your hiring process if you need to scout wider for talent using digital tools. That's it for Ad Descartes this week. I hope we've kind of given you pause to think a little bit more around team, around hiring, even around your own career trajectory and what that looks like. I love Emma's point of around that we're all in a state of flux, that careers aren't forever, that loyalty is a thing, but it's not necessarily your law to one employer for life. I think they're all really important messages, and Emma does a great job of framing it up from a human perspective. Now, if you want to discuss any of this, jump on over to the Add to Cart community. It's free to join. We've got over 500 e-commerce professionals in there, and it's a great place to discuss anything that you've heard today, especially around maybe hiring techniques, how you get feedback from teams, learning and development programs, all those sort of things. Hit others up in the Add to Cart community to get their ideas and share problems. It's better solved together. The other thing we've got there is a little section called open to work. So there are some great people in there that are saying that, hey, I'm ready to work or I've got positions ready. Come on in and uh check that out. We'd love to see you in there. Head on over to adtocat.com.au to join that community for free. Also, if you're listening on Spotify, Apple, or on YouTube and you liked what you heard today, make sure you hit that subscribe button. We're going to bring you episodes every week with new ideas and new innovations in e commerce, and we'd love to bring them to you. Hit subscribe and we'll see you next one.