Do Enough People Hate Your Brand? Why Playing It Safe Costs You | #595

As the Founder of IGU Global, Nick Gray has spent decades inside some of the world’s most influential brands including Nike, Adidas and Westfield. Today, he works with ecommerce and retail leaders who feel stuck between optimisation, automation and a creeping sense that something isn’t quite landing with customers anymore.

On today’s episode of Add To Cart, Nick joins Nathan Bush and Rosa-Clare Willis (making her first superstar appearance on the pod as co-host) to unpack why so many brands are doing “everything right” and still struggling to build trust, loyalty and momentum.

Today, we’re discussing:

• Why emotion drives ecommerce decisions long before logic
• The difference between convincing customers and helping them decide
• How over-optimisation creates doubt instead of trust
• Why AI should amplify judgment, not replace it
• What emotionally intelligent brands do differently online

Connect with Nick
Explore IGU Global

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

We don't even trust our local mechanic anymore. Does he really know what I need, or is he trying to sell me something? I mean, you can either go around trying to fit in, keep everybody happy, or you can say, here's what I believe in, and some people are going to agree with it and others aren't. The problem is we might be leaning too much into how do we convince the consumer to purchase and not so much into, well, how do I make it really easy for them to decide. I'm Nick from IGU Global, and this episode of Add to Cart is about how restoring trust and clarity, not just adding technology, is what really unlocks sustainable e-commerce growth.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Hello, it's Bushy joining you once again from the land of the turbal people in Brisbane for another episode of Add to Cart. Now, I've got something very, very exciting to share with you that I've kind of been working on in the background for a long time. And I am so excited to announce that we've got a very special co-host that's joining me today and will be joining us for a few episodes here on in. It is my delight to introduce to you Rosa Claire Willis, the co-founder and the CEO of Crocked, who is coming on to Ad Descartes to give us a little bit of an extra perspective to bring her amazing experiences around the beautiful business that she's built and everything that goes with it as a founder. Welcome to Add Descartes, Rosa.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Thanks so much, Bushy. I'm so excited to be here. And particularly for this to be the first episode that I get to co-host with you on.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Amazing. What's bringing you into the Ad Descartes? Well, let's be honest with people. Okay. So we've been friends for a long time. We were, you know, I've known yourself, I've known Andrew for a long time. Always got on like a house on fire. You were one of the early episodes, way, way, way back. And now that we we actually, when we're having discussions around you coming onto the podcast, we went, we should go back and have a listen to that early episode that we did. And we both listened to it and was like, we were on drugs or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

No, that was a fever dream. That was terrible. I'm so glad you didn't use that as a benchmark for me to come on and co-host with you for a bit.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

And what brought you back?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I just love what you're doing. I love Ad to Cart. I'm a long-term listener. I feel like there are so many different platforms and groups that people can join now, but always know that Ad to Cart has like genuine insights up for grabs. And I want to be a part of it. I want to be in the conversations with you. I want to, to me, it's it's been amazing. It means I can almost have these free consultations, right? As a brand that's trying to figure out who the hell we are and how the hell we scale. So it's amazing. No one gets better guests than uh Bushy, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Oh, well, we're so lucky to have you join us and to bring your expertise and your smarts in. And I've got no doubt, even by the end of this episode, that you'll be asking better questions than I can already. So I might be out of a job soon. And it's an absolute delight to have you here. I know our audience will get so much from you. Should we get into today's episode?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

All right. Today's guest is Nick Gray. And Nick is the founder of IGU Global, which stands for I Got You Global. He's previously helped brands such as Nike, Adidas, and Westfield build their brands locally. Just a little bit of a few names there. And today he works with brands and retailers to help them design for emotional trust, clarity, and better decision making. You may know Nick from his Black Beanie, and we do ask him about this style in this conversation, but we talk all things brand. We talk about what happens when brand optimization even goes too far, how dashboards don't always tell the full story, and around consistency with brand and whether that's still important in e-commerce today.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Exactly. And I think this is such an important conversation for retailers to be having because we're being forced to cut through the noise on so many different channels, and you can really lose your soul the more you optimize for conversions, the more you're trying to get that brain rot content out there to stop people scrolling straight past you. You can start to lose your soul and your brand mojo. So it's a really, really important conversation to have. Yeah, we're gonna get into things like PvPs, checkouts, returns, and like all of the small little decisions that no matter how big or small you are as a retailer, that you can start to build real genuine trust with your customer.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

I know it's a topic that a lot of e-commerce people are struggling with at the moment, especially as we push into new channels and there is all this pressure, especially around influencer and putting your brand in other people's hands and how we approach that, especially when you've created a great brand. So we're going to get into it. But before we do, I want to give a very special shout out. Thank you again to our sponsors, Shopify and Clavio, for supporting Ad Descart and helping us have these conversations for the e-commerce community. All right, let's get into it. Here's our conversation with Nick Gray, founder of IGU Global. Nick Gray, welcome to Ad Descartes. Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. It is absolutely a pleasure to have you here. We're going to talk all about branding today, but I want to kick off with a little bit of your personal branding. I've been lucky enough to work with you a little bit in terms of what we did online retailer, where you got up on stage and delivered a brilliant session on our skills stage. One thing that's always struck me in not only when you present, but also what you do on social, you yourself have a very consistent brand image. The black get up and the beanie. How many beanies do you own? Probably too many. Was that the question? That's it. That's as good as the questions get around here.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Yeah, I've got a few beanies.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Is there a method to the madness or the non-madness?

The Importance of Consistency in Branding

SPEAKER_03 5:32

I think, you know, what what I try to deliver is the same thing that I kind of expect from any brand or business that I work with, really, and you know, making sure that I'm clear on what I stand for and and believe in and then deliver that consistently regardless of the channel. So I also, you know, I'm a big believer in the fact that people are literally going to either connect with me or not connect with me within the first few seconds. And you know what, that's really good because one thing you'll hear me talk about a lot is building like and dislike trust, you know, and how important it it is to do that. And the way you do that is to be almost polarizing in the way you present yourself, the way you talk about things and what you talk about. So yeah, look, I always like to create the, I don't know whether it maybe it's an illusion that I get retail and I understand certainly the fashion and streetwear side of things more than anything. But I think you would be foolish to not have clarity around that. Any business that's dealing with a human externally needs to be very, very clear that everything they do, touch, say, sends a message. So it's pretty important.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Looking forward to going beneath the beanie, then, shall we say, today?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Sure. Sure you didn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

What's under the hood?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Well, if we're talking about first impressions and whether an audience likes or dislikes you, Rosa, that's your very first question and your first comment on the show. How do you think that's going to be perceived, Nick?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Yeah, I think that's sort of the time we have. Um No, it's good. And you know, like, I mean, we can talk about it more later, but you know, that consistency is everything, right? Like, and we can talk about how you build trust. And I think a lot of the times we get it wrong in with brands and retail, oh, and it's it's everything. So the consistency in the way we turn up time and time again is what delivers the influence in the end, you know?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

And I was also gonna say it's interesting because for anyone who meets you or looks at you, it's sort of like you know that you are going to like relate to you as a person, hear what you say, like you've got a huge CV, which we'll get into. Like you worked with some of the biggest brands, such as Nike, and there's something quite like simple in the way that your like code that like your like knit gray code that you're putting forward that makes it feel like very approachable for anyone being like, okay, cool, a brand, a brand personality, or anything like that doesn't actually need to be anything complicated. Like you said, consistency is like what you're gonna be delivering.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And this is so good that you're here because you know, getting this feedback allows me to kind of either get uh question what I'm doing or validate what I'm doing. And so I love that because you know, there's a lot of environments I go. I I do work with the the British consulate, for example, and that's quite a mature environment. And so for me to turn up there is quite a juxtaposed position to be in, right? I turn up and stand out, and I often feel like, is this the environment for me as a brand and and and business? But I don't think you need to figure too much out when it comes to that. And one of the things that I really love is or try to try to do is that I let my thinking represent me as opposed to use brands to signal. And you know what I mean? And so yeah, I think also when you mature, you don't have the energy to kind of well you have the energy, but I don't want to put my energy into wearing different brands and all the right brands to, you know, I'm those games are finished for me.

Consultancy vs. Hands-On Approach

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well, you'll see nothing but me in a navy shirt. You don't have to think as soon as you get up.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

At least you're consistent.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

I'm consistent. Tell me about I got you though. Tell me why you created your consult. Do you call it consultancy agency?

SPEAKER_03 9:10

I actually don't like the word consultancy or consultant or advisor. I mean, that's what it altered.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah. The reason I think is that it doesn't sit so well with me is that, you know, I think fundamentally the perception of a consultant is somebody that sits above everything and then tells everybody what to do and why this is not working. And I'm I'm really passionate about getting in the trenches with a lot of brands that I work with. And so I've never wanted to be, you know, IGU was has never wanted to be that. Here's what's wrong with retail, here's what we need to change about retail, and this is what you're doing wrong.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

You just save that for your inside retail articles. I do.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

I do. I save that for inside retail. No, but what I want to do is just provoke thought more than anything when it comes to most things. But what I kind of realized after some time, you know, 25 plus years in this industry was that a lot of the things I focused on, maybe we go back to go forward, right? So if you look at there's eight and a half years at Adidas, 10 years at Nike, you know, buying director at Sneakerboy and Westfield, 80% of my role was around psychology. It was around consumer behavior and understanding people before then implementing what it allowed us to bring to the market or to accelerate what we were doing. And so I often felt like, and I think more so now than ever before, we we focus on so much optimizing, you know, and how do we make it more productive and more efficient and so forth? And I'm like, yeah, you know, my job looking after the fashion and streetwear side of the business for Adidas and Nike meant that I needed to ask the question, does this fit culturally into the landscape as opposed to asking the question, does this sell first?

SPEAKER_02 10:53

While we're looking back, I'm really keen to understand at those big companies, Nike, Adidas, they're established brands already, right? They've got their own identity. They're pretty well ingrained in the culture. As a branding expert within those businesses, especially in Australia, and you mentioned before that you love to be hands-on and actually making things happen. Where do you make the biggest impact in helping shape a brand that is so well established in a local market?

Impact on Established Brands

SPEAKER_03 11:18

It changed a lot. You know, after 10 years at Nike, it was kind of the reason why I it was time for me to go. And it was simply because they were taking back those global directives and saying, right, here's the objective, go and implement it into the marketplace, as opposed to saying, here's what we need to achieve, you go and influence that. And so it did feel like you lost a bit of that, I don't know if control is the right word, but that ability to shape and shift and decide, you know, what were the right stores, what were the right locations, who are the consumers that we're speaking to in order to deliver those objectives. And fundamentally, my objective, my job at Adidas and Nike was to make sure consumers missed out, you know, and that wasn't to not around like exclusion, but to drive desire. So by taking the approach of understanding is this culturally right first meant that we would go tastemakers, early adopters, down into general market, which then meant we would get the return from a revenue perspective in time. And that, you know, was a whole seed ignite scale mentality. And my job was to kind of understand the best way to do that with a consumer that doesn't like to be sold to, you know, they dig their heels in. And more so now than ever before, there's more consumers doing it, but they sniff out as soon as you push, you know, as soon as they see right through marketing. And so we kind of went through this process where if the tastemakers, those trendsetters kind of adopted what we were doing, a new silhouette or so forth that we want to introduce into the market, we knew that the next step was what we would call an early adopter. So early adopters don't set trends, but they pick up on them really quickly. And we knew that once we got it past the early adopters, then it had the legs to really drive revenue in our marketplace once we moved it through into more being more accessible to the general market.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So for our listeners who don't know Nick Gray, they don't know all this amazing work that you've been doing, would you explain yourself as like obviously not an agency, you're not a consultant, but you're basically this like brand therapist, this coach that comes in. Sometimes you're even like a essentially a fractional CMO, right? IGU Global basically comes in and says, like, who the hell are you if you've lost your way? Like you could be a massive brand like Nike, Westfield, and you're essentially like re-anchoring them. Is that correct? Or how would you, for our listeners who are just hearing about this for the first time, how do you say, explain what you are and who needs you?

Understanding Brand Identity and Emotional Connection

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Yeah. So like a fractional CMO, we we do play in that that role, but in time, right? So fundamentally, a CMO kind of comes in and makes an existing system work really well, whether it's for growth, optimization, so forth. What we do is we step maybe one step higher than that, we're better than them. No, no, no. I'm not I'm just kidding. Well, what we do first is we we kind of make sure that we are clear in order to make the the best decisions for that system. And it the bottom line is that, you know, humans make decisions with emotion first. You know, trust is built on emotion. And so if we are not really clear around the emotional default of a brand or business first, then it can influence depending on the decisions that you're making, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:40

So is that hard for you to position yourself though? Because if you think about it is like brand, and and I'm picking up on this in everything you're saying, is that brand is every decision you make from how you show up colour-wise, logo-wise, all the stuff that we kind of come to immediately versus what products you stock, versus what physical locations, where you open those physical locations. Everything is saying something about who you are and who you're for to drive that desire. So is it hard for you then to be lumped into a marketing category when it's essentially every decision you're making?

Navigating E-commerce Challenges

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Yeah. So we will play in that space. And like to cut a long story short, we work with anyone, but we have to have clarity on whether the mindset is right in the first place, right? So if you are there just focused on a fundamental CMO objective, then we're probably not the right business for you. But what we tend to focus on first, and it happens in different ways. A lot of businesses approach me when they're pinballing, right? So when they're like, oh my God, we're maybe we need to add this category, or is our social media doing the same thing it needs to do in retail? And they're creating all this cognitive dissonance, which is confusing the consumer across their ecosystem, right? Or what we would traditionally call it an omnichannel. And so what we always find ourselves doing is going this way first to get that clarity, right? And the reason that that's so important is, you know, you'll hear me talk about this a lot, is there's kind of two camps in retail. You're either a cognitive default or you're an emotional default. A cognitive default is simply when a customer is making an automatic decision, right? Where do I go for my shopping cults? Where do I get my home tech product from, JB Hi-Fi? And it's a really short equation in people's heads and a really hard camp to be in and stay in. But if you're not in that camp, then you're in the emotional default. And what that means is that a consumer is making a buying decision based on a feeling or emotion attached to that brand or business. And so the problem is, is that if we're not clear on that, double down on that and anchor to that, what that actually ends up doing is confusing consumers. And that's what impacts doubt, puts doubt, you know, and you've done it yourself. You know, you've gone to a website or into a store and you've gone, is this the right store for me? I'm not quite sure, you know? And as soon as there's doubt in your mind, then what that does is impact trust. No different to a relationship. And it's very hard to repair.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

As a therapy session, Rosa, how much of Crocs decision making do you think is emotional? How much time do you spend thinking about brand as an emotional lever?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

It's so interesting. And I, yeah, I have so many questions on this because I think we pinball a lot because we go from doing so much storytelling through our socials and the actual experience when we deliver it itself is like very emotional. Like everything from like the candle we light to the drink that you're like surprised and delighted with. Like it's a very emotional experience what we do. But then there's this stark contrast when you actually go to convert on our website because we're so terrified of stopping someone from acting on impulse because we can't afford them not to kind of purchase on their first time visiting that site. So I feel like, yeah, it's a really interesting place that a lot of retailers would find themselves in the same position. Like, how do we add more emotion or connection and the hue, the thing that makes cropped cropped? Because everyone who comes into the class ends up coming to us and says, Oh my God, I wasn't expecting this. So this was so much better, or you should put this on your like on the ticket. I didn't know this. And we're like, yeah, should we? Or are we just gonna mess with our conversion rate? And like maybe it's better to just surprise and delight, or not. Are we now just getting the cheaper group on customers when our reality is the customers we're missing out on? No offense, groupon.

Emotional Intelligence in Customer Behaviour

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Yeah. So look, there's nothing wrong with focusing on surprise and delight, right? Fundamentally, when you think about it from an e-commerce perspective, it's more challenging than converting in in real life, right, in a retail store. So the challenge is greater and the stats will back that up. You know, we look at Black Friday, every one in three consumers purchase online, every one and two in store. And it is simply because you can drive emotion, right? And the instant gratification of taking that purchase and walking away, where there are things that change when you go to an e-commerce platform. One thing we saw during just after COVID was that the role of online and physical retail literally swapped, right? And so your store became online and your most manageable, tangible, measurable marketing tool was your store. And yes, you could purchase. But you still have to play the same equation, whether it's is it the first time that customers met you? Are they looking for inspiration, education, they're ready to purchase, first or third time they've done it, right? So you have to be consistent in delivering that emotion or feeling that you're selling every single time. Otherwise, depending on where they're at from their path to purchase, it'll change. And so when we think about like how we might identify emotional intelligence or emotional problems within a website or an econ, it's normally what it's breaking more so than what it's actually doing. So if there's hesitation, people aren't converting it soon, those are all areas where it says something has created hesitation or it might be a place that they need to be provided with more safety, reassurance. And so the problem is we might be leaning too much into how do we convince the consumer to purchase and not so much into, well, how do I make it really easy for them to decide?

SPEAKER_02 20:15

So, as the cognitive in the room here, sure when we're talking about key conversion pages, and because we're an e-commerce podcast, we should talk about e-commerce a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

I'm gonna just stay in e-commerce land.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

I know. Boring. But when we're talking about product pages and say checkout, for example, key conversion pages, when you're adding emotion in there, where are you looking or thinking? And I know it's a microcosm of your world, but when you're looking at that part of the journey, is there anything that you found, any secret tricks or tips that we should know about to introduce that emotion to that part?

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yeah. So what we kind of try to do is implement space for judgment, right? That's really what we're doing, is we're looking at it from, you know, everything's moving stuff really quickly now from technology, databases, dashboards. We're doing a great job. Technology is not the problem in retail, right? It's kind of a human one. And it's because we're not allowing enough space for reflection on those key moments that take place in e-commerce, right? And often we think about what are those things that are going to help push that consumer through the funnel. And it seems to be low-hanging fruit when we think about it from, you know, dopamine release. You know, we get reward or wrong. We we look at reward and we go, it's rewards program, it's discount. And those are all things that convince. But when we're looking to persuade, it's different, right? I'll tell you who does it really good. There's probably you're probably looking for an example, right? So ASOP are a great gangster at this. They are amazing.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

You're not gonna tell us that we all have to have branding like ASOP, are you?

SPEAKER_03 21:51

No. But what they're doing is they're looking at they're looking at what are the things that we need to signal to our customer that actually help them make the right decision. Not How do we convince them to purchase? So if you look at their, you know, they do these gift packs, for example, right? And what they lean into is this is great for indecisive fingers, right? So knowing that the customer that is coming forward is coming from a place of indecision. And so what that does is by focusing on that, it allows them to say, Oh, we get that you're you're struggling with decision here, not how do we make sure you buy all three. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

On that, it's probably like ASOP knows that they're probably largely a big portion of their revenue comes from gifting. Because when I think of myself as a customer of ASOP, it's actually, except for my dog shampoo, it's always been a gift. And so gifting someone a scent can be quite personal. So it's really quite smart as well that they're taking that emotional like decision making from off of you. And then you're able to like gift someone that then becomes a recurring customer themselves to ASOP. Like it's I can totally see that example of ASOP being a great, yeah, great example of that.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah, because they turn their customers into ambassadors, right? Yeah. And that is simply because they work on the feeling that they're selling, not the product. And they do an amazing job on that. The thing I really love about these guys is that, you know, there's often talk about you can't have physical or just online. You have to have both, right? But the problem is that you can't just take physical and then put it online. You actually have to translate it in a different way so that it works from an online perspective. The best way that online works is once somebody has had an experience with you and then they go back. You know, we used to see it at Nike all the time. Once you know your size of Nike, you don't need to go in store and get an updated t-shirt necessarily. You already know, and and so it becomes around convenience, right? And that's when you start to move into more of a cognitive role, which is often how we perceive e-commerce, as opposed to an emotional one. But when you're dealing with something like, well, ASOP's a great example, you know, creams and so forth, you literally have to make it smell, you know, and come off the page, come off your, your, your laptop. And that's really challenging. So those words that you use to fuel that emotion as opposed to trying to drive conversion is really important. The other mindset around that is that, you know, we've done this with a brand that I work with. When you think about the sales funnel, a lot of brands will focus on the middle of the sales funnel and say, right, what are those things that we pull, gift with purchase, whatever it might be, to drive them to conversion, right? Well, there's a brand I work with strictly, and we just focus on filling it up with emotional narrative and so forth, and going, you know what, let them decide when they get there. And by focusing on filling it up, they've seen triple digit growth in 12 months, you know? So I think online sometimes we're a little bit guilty around optimization and not saying what restraint needs to be put in there, what's the discipline we need to be thinking about more so than how do we convert more?

SPEAKER_02 25:01

I think that's really interesting because often when we think about brand and establishing a brand, it's easy to throw out the examples of Nike and ASOP and stuff who have big, beautiful brands.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

And budget.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

That's the thing, right? Is like, are we talking budget here? Because I assume that you're talking to a lot of CFOs as well. Does branding actually equal budget and investment, or is it just the way you consistently show up and do things? Any fashionist that knows that if you want to make smart wardrobe choices, everything needs to live in the same wardrobe. Not half your clothes in the spare room, shoes in the garage, accessories in the car. Princess Polly realized the same thing was true for their marketing. As they scaled globally and opened physical stores, their email, SMS, app, and in-store data were all living in different platforms, which makes it pretty hard to scale a great customer experience at scale. So they pulled everything into one place, Clavio. By consolidating their channels and customer data, Princess Polly unlocked a clearer view of the customer journey, smarter automations, and faster global scale. In Q3 last year alone, they drove 2.8 times year-on-year global revenue growth, with over 60% of that Clavio revenue coming from automated flows. Even better. Flow revenue grew more than four times year on year. Turns out when everything's in one wardrobe, picking the winning outfit gets a lot clearer. If you want your marketing to scale with style, head to Clavio.com forward slash AU and see how brands like Princess Polly are doing it.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

So let's talk about Nike, right? So Nike is not a sports company. Their role is to allow you to be the best that you can be with the product from Nike, right? So the way they do that is they drive that through every storytelling and they're storytellers. You know, if you think about what their archetype is, they're storytellers. They anchor to the emotion and the consistency of showing you can be the best that you can be if you wear Nike. And that is it.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Still doesn't work for me.

Polarising: Let Them Hate You

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Well, that's okay because, you know, I think the other thing is that we get a little bit confused about what our trust is and how you build trust. You know, we are hardwired to trust. Humans trust. There's people you don't like that you still trust, right? And so the way that works is you trust them in a different way. You know, you might trust them to say something inappropriate in front of your children or trust that they're going to be late, but we are always looking for trust. And so as a brand, you need to be very clear on building that dislike trust, which then moves the like trust up into love, right? And so what do you mean by build the dislike trust? So it's very important that people don't like you. I've got no problem with that. Yeah. The problem with that is that this is when you get brands trying to be everything to everybody, yeah, and you stand for nothing and you sell to no one, right? Because you haven't been polarizing. So the way that that works, and there's a guy that talks about it, the best way to serve your audience is to ignore them, right? Because you build belonging by having an opinion on things. You don't build belonging by trying to keep everybody happy. That's how that's fitting in, right? And by building belonging is by you saying, here's exactly what I stand for. Here's what I believe in, here's my principles, my values, beliefs, behaviors. And then what someone does is go, oh my God, they're the same as me, and they connect.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I totally resonate with this because when Crocs started, we were like our motto. I don't know if we have to edit this out, but we even said, like, get crocked up, not fucked up. And the whole thing was basically about helping people get out of their head and into their hands. And because we launched just before COVID, like money wasn't a problem. Like we were making so much money, our margins were huge because everybody pulled out of paid ads because they didn't know what was going to happen. So we were just like, we call COVID our seed round. Like we had so much cash in the bank that our brand was like better than ever. Like it was so good because all we were doing was brand stuff and like just being really, we had nothing to lose. And then it was like as more competition creeped back in and like cacks started to rise, we then had to kind of chase the customer a little bit more than what we had originally. And then lo and behold, the big beautiful customer was like team building, who like, you know, you only had to get one customer and you were making at least like two grand a sale instead of the$90. But we had a very big client that rhymes with Moogle. And they were telling us, like, hey, you know, we've got this huge order, like a$20,000 order, but we're not gonna pay it until you remove like boob mug, like the titty mug off of your website because it's gonna make our team uncomfortable. And then, oh, we're not gonna do this. We saw that you have a an event coming up with like a sex therapist on, like, you know, it was like sex education with like butt stuff and we're making booty mugs. It was all this stuff that made us such a polarizing ceramics brand, which used to be this like wholesome, beautiful kumbaya thing. And then we were just like bringing a bit of culture to it. But we lost ourselves because we were like, yes, yes, of course. And we thought that we had a strong enough like identity. And then I think we've spent the last little while, like last year. Our whole motto was like, let's get our mojo back. And we actually stopped team building. Like it comes to us naturally, but we don't advertise it anymore. And that was a big, big call to make. But I totally hear what you're saying. I think it's like, I think people don't uh well, okay, now I'm gonna eat my own words. Other than the last 12 months, I think people are starting to realize rage bait is a real thing. Hello. It's like everything you're saying is basically like, yeah, have an opinion. But I think people before were so scared to get roasted and canceled online. I can't believe we're still here because I do so much dumb stuff all the time. But I think it's like rage baiting and the fact that this has become such a term must mean that like some people are gonna hate you, but in order to be hated, you need like it means you're being loved or whatever. So I totally I think brands need to like, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

But I think that's life, right? I mean, you can either go around trying to fit in, keep everybody happy, or you can say, here's what I believe in, and some people are gonna agree with it and others aren't. And that's okay. It's not about being right or wrong. It's just saying, I understand who I am. And brands need to do the same. Good ones have done it for many years. The problem is, and to your point before, Rosa, is that without that clarity in the chaos, what happens is you do start to make decisions that influence the perception of your brand in the marketplace. And you start answering a different question to the one you started with. And so the problem is, is it becomes very dangerous. The thing we're seeing right now is because everything has so been so focused on around efficiency, productivity, optimization, it's meant that it has and does, it's kind of the fastest way to average because it is literally changing the perception of your brand that you want or your target market. No different to a discount, right? If you're a premium brand in the market and you're talking to a premium consumer and then you discount, well, now you're talking to a the value proposition changes where this guy goes, you told me you were this and now you're telling me you're this, and that's the cognitive dissonance.

Clarity in Brand Messaging

SPEAKER_02 32:21

And I reckon we'll have so many people listening who are either leading a brand, struggling with that in staying the course, or working in a brand going, I just want to try some shit. I just want to like push us to where we should be in terms of what we believe in. So, Nick, when you're working with a brand, and obviously it's really easy to have, I can imagine the excitement that comes with what you're doing in terms of developing new brands and hey, this is our mission and this is our vision, this is what we stand for. And everyone leaves the room and they're all pumped and they're like, Yeah, this is gonna be great. And then you get back to the office and somehow it kind of goes back to exactly what you were saying, that average and that safe zone. What advice do you give your brands to kind of snap them out of that? To go, hey, remember, we don't have to stand, we don't have to be for everyone. We've got one mission, one vision. Like, let's go after it hard. How do you get them back?

SPEAKER_03 33:11

Yeah. Well, this is often where it becomes a bit of a counseling session, right? Because often what we unpack and talk about, people go, oh, bro, that's so, that's so logical, right? That so makes sense. The work is not in getting that clarity. You know, like often a lot of brands will have all the answers. They're just up in here. And so what I what we do is we we take all that information out by curated exercises and questions to then synthesize that information, provide a playbook or what we call the Bible back to them so that then when they start implementing it, they've got the reference point to anchor back to to say, not so much is this what we would do, but understanding what it is you wouldn't do, right? And that that becomes gold. And once you do that over time and you build the pattern, it becomes easier and easier to know we wouldn't do that, right? Or retarget three times. No, no, no. We know our customer, we'll dig their heels in. They'll be like, pain in the butt, stop talking to me, right? So we kind of get that clarity from a brand perspective first, and then we focus on it from a consumer perspective. We don't focus on it from a demographic perspective. Demographics tell you so much from age, location, you know, Rachel's 23 and just left home, you know, that type of thing. But what we look at is the psychometrics, so the mindset, so the motivations, the values, beliefs, behaviors, right? So what it allows you to do is then start answering the question, right? So if your brand is the answer, what's the question? And if you ask a lot of brands, they wouldn't be able to tell you. And so what we're doing is providing clarity across multiple areas within the business, but really becoming meaningful in a way that anchors to memory. Does that make sense? Yeah. So let me shift this in a different way. The one thing we're seeing in content creation at the moment is it's like this vibe trap, right? So it looks good, it's got the right fonts, the music, it's delivered the right way, and people will like it. They might even save it, but they move on from it really quickly because it's focused on tone, not truth. So if you want it, you want it to anchor to truth, then it has to come along with not all that artificial. And this is the same thing we're seeing with trends. You know, what I did at Nike was let it build through culture first. And what we're seeing now in with trends is they loop. So what they it's all around putting it into the system and letting the algorithm do give the visibility. But what that does is it kind of creates this perception of familiarity, maybe relevance, but it doesn't anchor because it doesn't anchor to memory.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Someone said the other day that, like, basically, if your social strategy, your brand social strategy is around trends and jumping on trends, like you're actually just living on borrowed time. And we even saw this firsthand as well. It was like because the algorithms, like their motive is not actually to drive business to your website, like what they're trying to do is keep people engaged and show them more of what they like. So, like the more uh we made more viral content, then the more we were lifting up our competitors as well, who were copying our content or you know, whatever. But the point was we were just like driving everyone's like top of funnel. And that's like actually we were all focused on the wrong shit, like vanity metrics. We should be thinking about like our actual storytelling or saying what our competitors can't say because otherwise we're just like promoting friggin' pottery for all the pottery brands, damn it.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Promoting pottery and then growing time on Instagram, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And then guess what? Whoever's in the top position on Google wins. Like we all just did it for Google. So annoying.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Yeah, and it, you know, it's a it's a really interesting time because we don't trust anymore. So what I mean by that is that the guideposts that we used to use to make buying decisions or decisions in our lives has changed, right? So, you know, we don't trust politicians, police force, religion, all these things that we would once use to help make decisions in our lives has changed. And, you know, we don't even trust our local mechanic anymore, you know? Like, does he really know what I need, or is he trying to sell me something? And so our bubble is gone like this, right? And it means like if I want a mechanic, I'm gonna go, hey Nathan, do you know a good mechanic? And if you've had a good experience, then you're gonna go, yeah, you should go to this guy, right? So the same thing is happening from a social media perspective because everything is being generated, AI is making it all perfect, and the strategy is actually coming being more powerful from the inconsistency or not inconsistency, the almost the mistakes that are made to break down that consistency and delivering everything perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

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Crafting Consistency Across Platforms

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Well, I'm really interested in that word consistency, and that was going to be my next question because you mentioned it a lot at the start, and I think brands are being really challenged by that, and I know I'm working on a few at the moment that are that because all of a sudden you've got this D2C experience, which you can craft yourself, you can create a great story, you can take people through a journey. Then all of a sudden you might have an Amazon experience, which is a lot more functional, a lot more bottom of the funnel. You've got to show up in a certain way. And then over here on Insta, it's like you've got to craft this beautiful story and you know, have trends and eye-catching reels in between it. And then over on TikTok, we're just going fucking crazy and we're doing all sorts of stupid shit. So, like, how do you craft a consistent brand between all of that?

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Okay. Wow, it's a long journey, right? So, so when we talk about sometimes we use words incorrectly, maybe, right? Like, okay, so trust is built anchored to an emotion. We've already spoken about what camp you're playing in. And most people will be playing an emotional default first and then turn into a cognitive default, right? Real it shortens the decision making. So if you think about it from trust, like if I want you to come out to dinner with me, I'm gonna say, here's the emotion, right? It's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be amazing, right? Feel good, feel good, feel good. And then I'm gonna go, we're going to this restaurant, this person's gonna be there, I'm paying. Here's where we're going afterwards, etc. So these are consistencies, right? So what you do is you build a cognitive narrative in your head anchored to this emotion that then decides whether you like it or you dislike it. Okay. So what that does then is it it, these are persuaders, which is what we use in retail, but we don't anchor to the emotion first. So it gets changed often. But those that do, because that cognitive narrative happens, what it does is it moves you from being a persuader through to it, what we call an influencer. And influencer is not, oh, let's go on social media and you should buy this. Influencer is like, I want to be that for retail, right? When something happens in retail, Nick Gray is the first person I think of. I wonder what Nick thinks about that. That is influence. And so the same thing happens with brands, right? So if you look at Patagonia is a great example, right? So their emotional default is culture. And so what they do is they drive their values, beliefs, behaviors through everything that they do that it anchors back to building culture around those values. And so what people do is they in their head, they the question they answer is what brand aligns to my values, beliefs, behaviors? It's Patagonia, right? And it's because of the way they approach everything that they do, online, in-store activations, activism, that send that same consistent message into the marketplace, and that's what they become famous for, you know? And then the other half of that is so you've understood that from a brand perspective now, but then you have to understand what it is you're delivering to your customer or persona from what we call rice. So rice is the four basic drivers of humans, really reward, ideology, coercion, or ego, right? So we get reward wrong in retail because we think it's discount, gift with purchase, loyalty program. A great example of reward is Dyson, right? So Dyson emotional default is design. They're not reinventing the wheel with the product that they're making, but they they take that and then reinterpret it and deliver it to the market, right? So when you think about reward and delivering it to their audience, the reward comes from when you are actually vacuuming and you see the suck, you feel the suck on the floor, you see the dust getting collected, and you have a sense of progression and winning in your life because of the action of vacuuming. That's reward, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Is this the general perception, or is he saying something about your life here, Nick?

SPEAKER_03 42:50

But reward is anytime a customer feels like they're winning or progressing, is my point, right? So ideology is the hardest one to get right, and that's the ones that lean into alignment on values, beliefs, behaviors. And coercion is when a customer is buying because they're alleviating a negative feeling that they've had. You can do that ethically or unethically, right? Unethically is, oh, you're are you getting old here, buy the skin cream, or are you putting on weight? You need to buy this product. That's leaning into the guilty feeling that that person might be having. But if you're actually solving a problem for them, then it can be done ethically. And then ego, right? So ego is not a bad thing at all. Ego is just how you think the rest of the world see you. And ego is when you look in the mirror and you go, killer.

SPEAKER_04 43:38

Right?

Understanding Emotional Connection in Branding

SPEAKER_03 43:39

But it's also when you look in the mirror and you go, oh my God, I'm putting on so much weight. It's the same thing. And so what we do as customers is we we buy things to allow the rest of the world around us, here's what I want you to know about me. And so if you can understand those four things against the emotional default, now you're starting to connect in a meaningful and authentic way. Which then moves it into well, what is the process, the CMO of delivering that to the market?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

So basically like a a very cheap first place for a brand who's listening to start is does this asset, does this page, does this ad, whatever they're whatever they're thinking, will this make someone love me or love it or hate it? And then it's from that, whatever that emotional response is, then you influence it through direction. Like that is that just like a can they do that or how how do they they they first first call me and then we'll talk about it?

SPEAKER_03 44:35

No, no, I'm kidding. The first step is getting the clarity, right? Yeah. You have to get the clarity on your emotional default and understanding your business almost like humanizing it, right? So one of the things that we always ask is like if your brand was a a car, what car would it drive? If your brand was to be a sports brand, which sporting celebrity would it be? So what you're starting to do is think about your brand and business in a different way so you can understand the personality and emotional connection to it. Once you've got that, then you're saying that's when you go into what are we doing by doing this?

SPEAKER_02 45:09

You've got to know who you are before you execute.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Totally. You know, the bottom line is customers work the same way they Rosie, the same way you and I just did, it's that gut feeling that says, This is somebody I'm happy to talk to. This is someone I'll share information with. Consumers do the same things with brands. You know, we have to double down on that consistency in a relationship more than we do in a brand and marketplace, but it's the same equation.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

So for the simpletons, me listening, where I'm just I'm just trying to think. Like, if I like because everything you say absolutely resonates, and I I think it's huge for people to get this right because any Tom Dick and Harry is gonna create like amazing content these days or build a brand super fast. It's gonna be this like emotional intelligence behind a brand that wins or loses or at least stays relevant. So I'm trying to understand, like as a first point of an audit for people who think, yeah, I've got a great brand. Like, because Andrew, my husband and co-founder, we are on two different pages. I'm like, a croctail is a great brand. And he's like, it sucks, be honest with yourself. So how can someone just at a first glance like understand, like, is my brand human first or is my brand conversion first? Or is that even the question? Like, how do they just at a glance, or because how do you, like, if you were to look at a brand and decide, like, yeah, this is someone that needs a bit of Nick Gray or IGU, how can you decipher that like just by looking at their and why is Andrew wrong?

SPEAKER_03 46:39

The first place I would say, going back to your question, would be to be able to answer two things, right? One, if your brand is the answer, what's the question that you're answering? And secondly, what's the feeling you're selling, not the product? So fundamentally, if you can get that clear, then what that does is it allows you to then have the discipline in starting to know what it is you would do and not do in your brand or business to stay consistent and delivering that emotion time and time again. Then the second part of the question. So for me, what I always see is I always look for things like where does it help me or where does it confuse me? Am I doing all the lifting, all the work here, and having to go through this site, or is it helping me make decisions? Those are the things that I often look at when I'm kind of getting a bit of a feel. But you can see it long before you go to the website. You'd look at their Instagram, you know, like there's a business I'm working with at the moment. They're a luxury jewelry business, right? 60 years of heritage and have done a phenomenal job, anchoring to trust, heritage, storytelling, integrity, all these amazing things. And then the lady Nadia that has taken over the business, she's a world-recognized and rewarded designer, right? But her ethos is around self-expression and identity. Now, because they bring those two things to life, it's actually causing cognitive dissonance from being heritage, you know, this is the motivation around holding on to things and and saving them, protecting those things that are special from a jewelry perspective in your life. And she's like, here's how we want to share who we are today. And it's like, that's what's causing the cognitive dissonance in their business. So what we've had to do is go through this process of getting the clarity of blending these two worlds together so that we're not losing everything that they've become famous for, but also being able to bring that to life in a new way that allows them to be current and uh applicable to the way consumers work today. And it's been a really interesting piece of work.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Nick, if your phone rang right now and it was a potential client on the other end of it, who would you hope? Which retailer in Australia would you hope is picking up the phone and saying, Nick, we finally made the decision. We've really got to redo this brand and know what we stand for. Who do you want to rebrand totally?

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Who needs some brand Botox? You know what?

SPEAKER_03 49:04

I really don't think that there's anyone in particular. The funny thing is it can be big or small, right? And everything we do isn't doesn't just fit into retail. It fits into, you know, I've done work in hospitality, travel, tourism, and it's because humans make decisions with emotion and justify with logic later. It's the same game, but just in a different environment. So it's probably the question is who probably not so much who I would work with, but there's brands that I wouldn't work with for various reasons. And, you know, I do find that there are brands that I can't work with. The big thing for us is that we have to figure out whether the nervous system of the brand is right for us to work with them. So fundamentally, any brand or business has a nervous system in it, and that is made up from the people that run the branded business. And so what happens is the perception of that random business gets reflected on how these people within the business work.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

You can pick that vibe up pretty quickly.

The Role of Leadership in Brand Culture

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Well, you can see where their focuses are or whether they have the ability to get uncomfortable, you know, or get comfortable being uncomfortable, whether they are focused on how do we influence the PL, or are we interested in taking care of the things that actually influence the PL. You know, I'm not a CMO. I do not want to come in and say, let me try and improve the system that you're working with already to get growth and optimization. I want to make sure that we've created the space for judgment in order to make the right decisions that really allow you to accelerate in the right direction.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I think that you are going to be so massive when we look back on this in like a year's time as well, because I think that's so right. And like now I regret asking you the first question about being like a fractional CMO and is it the same? Because I think like brand is culture. Like it is, it starts first, like in your team. Like you're so right. And hearing, I think even just reflecting on my own management and leadership experience. Like, I heard Andrew this morning giving feedback to his bot, and he was so straightforward and so like, no, that's not how we do things. Why did you do it like that? We do it like this. And I was like, God, imagine how much time we would have saved if we could have spoken to our team over the years like that, or or at least had like that resilience in our team, but we went so not we, Croctor's a great place to work, good culture, but I think we as leaders went so down this place of like gentle management and like scared to correct things, and we let things go so off path, and our brand suffered, our quality suffered now. Our customers don't know what we stand for and who we are. Like, I wonder if yeah, Nick Gray is gonna leave this like cultural movement of like people and like resilience, and that's that's where the gold is. Like your team.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

I think sometimes what you know, humans love they love metrics, right? And I get it. You know, let's not get it twisted in business. The bottom line is very important and conversion is important, and I get it. But that doesn't mean that you can't challenge how it's been measured, right? It was something that, you know, and we're gonna go off e-commerce for a moment here, but I used to say at Westfield, you know, five and a half years at Westfield, and I was saying we're measuring retail all wrong. We're using sell-through as the metric to determine whether or not a store is successful or not. And it's such an incomplete metric. It's like diagnosing your health by asking you what you had for lunch. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't tell you the whole story. And so one of the things that we implement now, and there's there's a store up in Brisbane that is is doing it really well. Obviously, getting clarity around conversion is important. Saying, you know, if a customer came in store and spent and every minute, like let's say they spent 10 minutes in store and every minute is worth 80 cents, the value of that time is now eight dollars. Well, you only need to understand whether it was a positive or negative experience from them to then say, well, do we subtract or add that to the conversion, you know, the South Roof? And so it's just thinking about the role in a very different way. But I think often in leadership, we also think here's how you do it, and that is the way you do it, you know. My years at Westfield, some would love to be rewarded with a bonus and cash, but others would be like, recognize me in front of the team, you know, and others would be like, give me a half day. And so once you understand that love language, it's like I know how to get the best out of these guys by rewarding them in the right way.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Nick, you're an absolute legend. I feel like we've just scratched the surface, right? By doing this in less than an hour, we've actually done a disservice to how much we could get out of you and how much depth there is in brand and identity.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

So good.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

It's been an absolute pleasure to find out.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Oh no, thank you. Thank you. And I mean, I'm I'm a huge fan of yours, Nathan, and always have been. And I was so honored to when you approached me. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And and lovely, lovely conversation. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Thank you, mate. Last thing before we go, best way for people to find out more, to stay in touch with you and what you and the team are doing, how can they go about that?

SPEAKER_03 54:08

So we're on IGUGlobal.com. That's our website. I mean, I'm uh live and breathe LinkedIn. I'm always on there posting and so forth. So, yeah, either way, obviously we have Instagram and so forth. There's there's multiple ways, but IGU Global, yeah, that's the best way to get me.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

Awesome. Look for the black beanie. Nick Gray, thank you so much for joining us on Add to Card.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Thanks, Nick.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

There you go. The black beanie, famous Nick Gray joining us on Ad to Cart. It was an incredible brand masterclass, and we're so lucky to have someone of Nick's experience working on those big brands like Nike and Adidas and Westfield joining us to share his view on where brand is at for e-commerce in 2026. Rosa, I'm gonna ask you. Normally, this is the part of the conversation where I go, here are the three things that I took out of it. We're gonna get much more intelligent observations because I'm gonna throw to you, what was the biggest thing that you took away from that conversation with Nick that you think you can apply with your business?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah, I think the two things that really stood out to me was first just like, is your brand polarizing? Like, if it's not polarizing, maybe it's not a brand. Like, do enough people hate you for people to love you, then people need a hate.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, I think that was like a really cool takeaway.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

And that's kind of why you're on the show, right? Because I've got so many people that hate me. Oh, had to bring on someone who was a little bit more likable.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

I thought you were saying you've brought on the hate, you're gonna start getting hate now for having me on the podcast, which I think is I think it's more accurate. Go easy on me, guys. I'm learning. But yeah, and then I definitely think the other thing, again, it's kind of like people related, but like just check yourself first. Like, don't look at all your brand assets, your digital assets. Like, is your culture, like, is your team on brand? Like, if your marketing team is not kind of related to the customer or the psychographics, like what Nick spoke about, then I just feel like you're gonna constantly make it hard for yourself to make on-brand decisions, I guess. So culture was not something I was expecting to come into this conversation, but but did, which was really valuable.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Yeah, it kind of reminded me of the conversation we had with Emma Grasso, who's the head of people at Culture Kings, where we talked about that. It's like such a strong brand around standing in that music and trend culture. It's like, how do you hire people who are like of that same mindset that can represent the brand? And she had some good tips on that as well. One that kind of stuck with me is like you've actually got to meet them. So when you're delivering training materials, don't just give them bunches of PDFs, turn them into short videos because that's what the brand would do.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

So I love that.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

How about you, Bushy? What did you take away from it?

SPEAKER_02 56:47

I think the one thing that I was hoping to get from this, but probably didn't, was some sort of magic secret around how you can get brand consistency that shows up differently in all the different channels. I know I asked that question for Amazon and TikTok and you know, brand being showing up so different in all the brands that I'm speaking to at the moment. There's a real challenge around there's this pressure to create UGC content, putting your brand in the hands of influencers and content creators, and knowing that for it to work on TikTok, for it to work on Instagram, it's actually got to be a little bit risky, got to capture attention. It can't be safe, but they might be dealing with a brand that is safe or it's loving or it's nurturing or it's caring. How do you do that on those channels that are so important for e-commerce without corrupting the brand?

SPEAKER_00 57:38

So true. I wonder if that's gonna end up being a thing of the past. Like, I wonder if like a brand guide or elements, because yeah, Nick couldn't really answer that either. And maybe it's because it's like gonna be more brand essence rather than brand identity. That's kind of felt like the message he was sort of saying was like soul, like culture, is that in the brand? Like, doesn't really matter about a beautiful gram anymore. Like you'd rather have like content and PDPs that like cut through.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Yeah, it was all about knowing what you stand for before doing anything, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Well, we've done a good job of summing that up in a semi-professional way. What a good start.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Now, if you are keen to join us and talk more about brand, and at the moment we've got a really great conversation around CRO and all things e-com. You can come and join the Ad to Cart community. It's free to join. You can join up at adducart.com.au. And we have over 600 e-commerce professionals in there who are trading tips and questions and insights every day. I think we need to have a few brand conversations in there as well. Come on over and join us there.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

I agree. Come hang out with us. And otherwise, thanks so much for dedicating all your time and listening to us on this episode. We've got a lot of other really great conversations coming up. So we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of At the Card.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Bye.