Galatians 4:21-26 & Jonah's Story

Scott Blewett, Luke Dunnuck, Sam Dunnuck, and Jonah Dunnuck have an open discussion of Galatians. Then Jonah shares his story. I hope you listen and enjoy...KYEOJ!!!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

What's up? This is uh Pursuing the Heart. God pursued us. Now we pursue him. This is gonna be the first podcast. We're gonna have four people on at one time. So let's introduce everybody. Luke Dunnock. Hello, everybody. Uh Sam Dunnock. Hello, everybody. And Jonah Dunnock.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hello, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

So I'm surrounded by Dunnock, so you guys are gonna have to be with me for the next hour or so. Please pray for me. I've got three of them right here. And they're they have surrounded me tonight. What's up, guys? You doing alright?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Doing well. Yep, doing pretty well.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Doing well? How did your work day to go today, Luke?

SPEAKER_05 0:48

Not too bad. Not too bad. Just pretty busy. A lot of calls. But uh, yeah. No, nothing major.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Did you guys have to work today there, Sam and Jonah?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah, we had a pretty long day today, but I think we made it through all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Did Scott work you hard today?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Did you guys have a good project? I heard Sam talking about that he had a great job today. Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah, I had a pretty big building down on the south side. It was like a four-story building we had to clean with the brushes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

So it got pretty interesting. Story building for what's your company you guys work for?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Uh Pink's Windows.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Pink's Windows. So if if you're local here in Indy, uh they do window washing, right? For home and residential.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

That's right. Windows and all sorts of different blue-collar home services.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

See, there you go, man. So if anybody's listening and they need some needs, you guys are there to help.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

That's right. Nice little plug for pinks there.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Nice little plug, plug for pinks. I think Sky will like that, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, he'll love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Uh-oh. Luca's knocking over pieces on the table. So foul ball. Foul ball. All right. All right. So, oh, and uh Jonah, how long you been married now?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

It's been a few months now, last September.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Last September. How's that been going for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

It's going well. You know, there's a lot of big things coming up. So okay. And uh it's just it's been fun. It felt like we were married before we got married, but yeah, you know, it's a it's official for the past few months and just growing closer to God together, and it's it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

All right, okay. All right, everything going in good in your world, Sam?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yep, everything's great.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

All right. Well, Luke, do you wanna we're gonna open up tonight? We're still in Galatians, um, and we're going to be in Galatians four tonight, and we're gonna have some good conversation, and we'll just see how this works because this is the first time. Like I said, we have four people on at one time, so and Luke's probably gonna have to out talk everybody. That's my bet for tonight. What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 2:58

I'm gonna try not to.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

You're gonna try not to.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

I can't promise anything. So we're used to it at this point. So is it this first time you had four mics? It might be the first time I've it might be the last time.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

This might be the last time. If you could see the basement we're in, there is an easel back here, and it has got two sides to it, and he has written down. Oh my gosh. So he's already laid down some stuff up here for tonight. So uh Luke, are you gonna stand by the easel or do you you have the easel? Do you know what's on the easel up there?

SPEAKER_05 3:34

I do, I do, I don't have to see it because I worked on it today. You worked on it today, so yeah, I had a couple windows, so I I went in there and I do I use that for a family Bible study we have here, so it's it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

So this will be the first time we'll have an easel also behind us, uh behind you, and he's got two sides, one saying Sarah and one saying Hagar. So when we get in this, maybe it'll make uh everything clearer. So uh I'm gonna ask Luke to open up in prayer.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Yeah, no problem. Father, we just thank you, and I am so blessed to be uh in a situation where we can go through your word, help divide it. Each one of us that's sitting down here have the spirit that indwells each one of us. And so uh as we as we parcel out your word and try to understand what it says, what it what it meant at the time, and then you know what we can glean from it and help us to see you and know you better, to know what you've done for us and also know what pleases you. Uh, we just ask that your spirit bless us tonight, help us to um properly divide the word of God. And I'm so privileged and blessed to to have my two boys down here to to help me do this. It's overwhelming a little bit, but it's very exciting. And uh we just ask that you you bless this time and bless those that are out there listening in Jesus' name.

unknown 4:55

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

So we've been uh on the Pursuing the Heart podcast, we've been going through Galatians, we're doing a slow walk. Um, and the way it opened was basically Paul was saying who he was and how he got put in this position to be uh minister to um the Gentiles going to churches um and establishing them. Um and uh so he basically I said this a couple of times, he put out his resume, who he was, how he how he became into this position, and then it talked about going to Jerusalem before the council and saying why he's in this position and who put him in this position. And uh he also um there was a chapter here going back, I think it was chapter two, where him and Peter got into a um little argument. They were talking, and uh then um moving forward, going through three is the difference between the law, um, the Mosaic law and the Abrahamic law. And I think Luke Dunnock happened to be on that podcast uh when we were talking about that. We also talked about air and what it means to be an heir, um, inheritance. And now we are moving into a discussion this evening between um Bond, uh a free woman or a bond woman, um, is what the text is saying. And I'll I'm gonna ask these three first before we get into any of these verses, because they've read these verses. I'm hoping they did before this evening. Who is he who is he like talking to in these verses? Is he talking to the Gentiles or is he talking to the Jews, or is he talking to both people?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

He's talking to the Jews and kind of from my understanding, pleading with them to you know come to faith rather than continue living under the law.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Oh, okay, all right. That's Jonah coming through. What do you got, Sam? You I would say the same thing. Same thing based on your studying, you would agree with what um he was saying there.

unknown 7:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Okay. All right, Luke, Luke, your two sons have stepped up and said that they believe Paul, this next section here, th 21 through 31, is directed to the Jewish people. Now, did are you going to correct them or are you gonna agree with them?

SPEAKER_05 7:37

No, I think they're right on, and I I think in this in this in this book, especially I think any book that Paul writes, and the boys and I were talking, you know, before we got started here, that he's he's redundant, but I think Paul Paul says the same thing in different ways, and he's very repetitive. And um I I think that's helpful, at least for me, you know, and he and he does he does communicate in a binary opposition format where it's kind of either this or that, a lot of comparative contrasting, and you know, he'll go into this allegory that we're getting into today. But why is why it's Paul is not just pontificating on theology, he's dealing with a problem, and this is a letter to the church of Galatia that has a problem.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Has a problem, and it's made up of Jewish people and made up of Gentiles. Yep, and when and the Jewish people they know the law, and they're having a hard time getting free from the law, and you're gonna so uh I think Paul was being sarcastic in verse 20, because he goes, but I would wish to be present with you now and to change my tone. Not sarcastic, maybe he goes, For I am perplexed about you. He's like, I don't, I'm not getting what you're why you're doing this, and then if you read right in the 21, it says, tell me. So he's trying to understand why the why he's perplexed. What what is he's he's trying to figure out why would they do this? So he's like, tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? Is that like so is that is he is that a sarcastic question, or is that more or less he's trying to figure out like why they want to go back to the law?

SPEAKER_05 9:41

Yeah, I I think Paul's a great orator, which means he uses a lot of words, and he never he he never keeps it like to the point as much as he comes at it from different angles. And I do sense even in this whole book that he's frustrated. He's frustrated that the work he did to bring Jesus to them, the gospel in its purest form, has been kind of manipulated, I would say, distorted would be a better word, by those who are trying to disturb them. So they're trying to bring back in legalism or the Jewish law customs, um basically the covenant, and I know we're gonna get into that, but they're trying, he's they're trying to mix the covenant of grace with back to the covenant of Moses, which is you know, the the the moral law, the the ceremonial law, the the the the if you are obedient to these rules and regulations, I will bless you, and if you are disobedient, I will curse you. That economy that they have been saved from, they're bringing back in. And I I think he's frustrated.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

So Sam and Jonah, I want to read the uh version that Chad Hayward loves. It's kind of the hippie version, and it's New Living, and we're not making fun of New Living, I like the New Living. If I said this in 21, listen what the New Living translation says. Tell me. You who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says? When you hear that, does that make it a little bit better? Do you understand a little bit what he's trying to say, Paul?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Absolutely. I think that makes it a little more clear.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

In what way, Sam?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Um basically it seems like he's trying to make them seem stupid or feel stupid, or uh like point something, he's getting ready to point something out to him. Yeah that's maybe right in front of their face. You want to believe what you believe, why don't just believe it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Right. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

I think that you know, there's pressures, it seems like when it, and you we experience this as believers, you know. I think when you get settled in, you can you get you're more stalwart, you know, you know what you believe, you know why you believe it, and you're willing to defend it. But I think as the new church comes, you know, if you if you're going down the path of uh say a new teaching, like when it it's come when it comes to grace, and then you know, maybe some older, more experienced people come in and challenge you on that. And and even though you know you're right, they might have status and they might say, Well, hey, that that's you're taking it too far, or you know, you're hey, that's not what you think it means. You can't just throw out the old and you gotta, you know, show some respect to the old. You gotta bring so I think that's a tough place to be in with for a new church. You've got Gentiles that aren't coming from that background, so you have these religious folks coming in and and they're bringing in the old, they're bringing back in the old.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Sam, have you ever uh teetered between the two law versus grace? I personally have not. Jonah, have I because here's the makeup of this podcast tonight, which is awesome. We got two older guys, Luke and myself, and we're two younger guys, Jonah and Sam. So along your faith journeys, Sam said no. Jonah, did you ever like you had to do this, you gotta do that, you gotta to be a good Christian, you gotta do these things, or was it always just grace and you're free?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Well, when I first came to Jesus, it was actually early college. I I struggled with it a little bit, you know, because I I learned from my dad and in our studies just grace, grace, grace. It's right Jesus plus nothing, or not Jesus plus works or whatever that may be. Um but early on, you know, it's it's hard to it honestly seems too good to be true sometimes. Right. I've I struggled with it a bit, but nowadays, I mean it's grace only for me. It's it's easy to rest.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Yeah, because you when your brother was on this podcast, I asked Isaiah, I said, which would be easier for me just to tell you ten things if you did those ten things, you're guaranteed to go to heaven. Or you're free in Christ. Which is easier to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Take the freedom.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

The freedom of any day.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

All right. Yeah, but if you were convinced and you could have that kind of clarity, I think Isaiah said he would. Yeah, if I thought that was true, if I believed that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, I guess I'd say what ten things. You know, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 14:49

Exactly. Here's here's a the interesting thing. Um, these guys were never born in old theology, or what I would say, that mix of legalism and and you know, grace. And uh actually Jonah here coined something, you know, a while back. If you want to share, I just think it was it's a really it probably was one of the more special things I've heard it from one of my kids that okay. I did at least uh one thing kind of right, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

One thing okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Yeah, I uh I refer to it as me being a trust fund kid. A trust fun knowing like growing up. I mean, I guess the start of my faith journey, knowing that it's it's grace alone that that creates my this relationship with Jesus. Okay, and there's nothing else in the way, and just knowing that from the beginning, it it makes it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Nice. I I I like the trust fund thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

That explains my walk too, was when I was immersed into this, it was you know, a constant state of forgiveness. It's Jesus, like he said, a Jesus plus nothing. So I've never really wrestled with the you know the legalistic side of it.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

I like you saying that, Sam. I've been saying that in the last couple of podcasts, or even through the whole book of Galatians that Paul's trying to say to the people, the congregation, it's Jesus plus nothing, not Jesus plus circumcision, not Jesus plus you need to follow the Ten Commandments, it's Jesus plus nothing, and they're having a hard time. So now he's going in the verse 22. He's going so the fun fact about all of us is we're in this Bible study on Fridays, and one reason why I asked Sam and Jonah to be on here and Luke is we're all in this Bible study, and we're going through Genesis right now, and we've been talking about Sarah, Abraham. Ha, I'm not sure if they were there for the Hagar um uh uh scripture, but um, you have this dynamic we're gonna go through, and it is um very interesting, and he's gonna use this, like you guys said, he's talking to the Jewish people in the congregation because they're gonna know this, and they're gonna know it really well, because this is in the first book of the Bible. Is that correct there, Luke?

SPEAKER_05 17:05

That is right, and so like Chapter 16, Genesis 16.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Genesis 16. So you have this circumstance come up, and so in 22 it says, for it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. So in this illustration, the bondwoman, meaning slave, would have been Hagar, and the free woman, who was Abraham's wife, the free woman, is Sarah. And there was a promise that God said to Sarah and Abraham that you will have a child, and he is going to be what is it, his offspring is going to be blessed, and the seed is going to be through him. Many nations will be blessed because of this offspring. So they were getting later in year, and they came up with this concoction plan that, hey, I don't think God's coming through. This is Scott's version, right? So Scott's version is hey, I don't think God's coming through, so let's just force this thing. So they have she comes up with a plan, tells Abraham, sleep with um my slave woman. If I'm wrong here, just correct me, you, Sam, Jonah, Luke. Um, so they have a child, the slave conv conceives a child, and his name is Ishmael. Ishmael. So there is attention from Sarah to Hagar because she's seeing that a lot of attention is given to Hagar because that's the son, and she wanted a son, she could never have a son, so God still says you're still gonna have a child. And I think in scripture that she laughed at God, and so then you have this thing, dynamic was okay, I'm gonna send you. She sent Hagar away, but then Hagar came back, and then later Sarah does have a child, and the Sarah's and Abraham and Sarah have a child, his name's what?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Isaac.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Isaac. So Isaac's born, so now Isaac is born from a free woman, and then Hagar had Ishmael, who's a slave woman, and there's gonna be some conflict here between the brothers, there's tension between the family dynamic. So then Hagar sent or Sarah sends Hagar away with Ishmael, because there's no way that they could be there together for Ishmael to continue and grow and become who he's supposed to be, I believe. This is just me.

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

So this is what we're about to go into, and this is what the Jewish people would know the story and have a connection between the two. Did I miss anything, you guys?

SPEAKER_05 20:37

No, you're right on the money, and that's it, that's exactly what what the situation is. Um, do you mind if I frame frame it up a little bit as we get into it? Yeah, go right ahead. Um, this this is in the last time I was on the podcast, I was talking about the three covenants. It was the covenant of Abraham, which is the covenant of preparation. Oh no, the covenant of promise. So Abraham was given promises, and God was going to build the nation that was going to deliver the Messiah. So part of part of that covenant was the covenant of promise. And then Moses comes, you know, along later, uh, after the 400 years of of captivity and of you know the exodus out of Egypt and gives the Mosaic covenant or what we call the old covenant. And and then we obviously know Jesus brings in the fulfillment of both of those covenants called the new covenant. But Paul is every time when Paul writes, he he stands on the Old Testament and he builds, he builds his his narrative and his point of view. And I mean point of view being that he lays it out and sometimes is very repetitive, but he braids in the stories of the Old Testament and the and that's all they're usually centered around the covenants. And these three covenants are really the the focal points. So he's using a story about. Abraham and Sarah and Hagar, which is right in the section of the Bible where that Abrahamic covenant is given. But he's using the two, uh, Sarah and Hagar as a dichotomy between the old covenant being the Mosaic covenant and the new covenant. And he's using this and he's going to compare the two. Right. And I just think the way he weaves stories is really fascinating. But that kind of frames it in. So as we hit these verses individually, what what does he mean when he when he when he uses the characters of Sarah and Hagar, and how do they represent these two covenants that he's comparing to? And then you say, well, why would he compare the two covenants? He goes, because they're mixing them up. That's the whole point of this book. They are melding these covenants together, which is driving confusion and really hierarchy within the church. Because once you say I'm better than you because I follow a certain set of rules better than you, and I do them more than you, now you've now you've got tension. And Paul is, you know, grace is equal as far as what you get from Jesus. You get it all.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Equal footing.

SPEAKER_05 23:27

No matter how many times you've read a Bible in the year. That's right. And this is why Hagar and Sarah have conflict, because as soon as Hagar has the baby, you know, she she's not on equal footing. And so she's lording that over Sarah. Sarah gets upset. So it's just an interesting thing Paul uses, and he's going to dip into he already has back into Genesis, and he's going to dip in again. I'm not going to ruin it, but it's coming. It's coming.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

Don't read ahead, right? Don't read ahead. But the crazy thing is, he's brought this will be the like the 18th time that he's talked about Abraham in Galatians. Because he he talked about how he was declared righteous because of his faith. And he tried to establish that in verse in chapter um, I think it was three there, where he went in and he was talking about Abraham and the importance of the Abrahamic covenant versus the Mosaic covenant, which was greater. So now he's also now going to compare the two ladies here, which is Hagar and Sarah. And great great discussion there, Luke. Great points. In 23 it says, But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. So um when you hear these things, uh guys, Jonah and Sam, I'm gonna tag you guys in here. What is a good explanation of what he's trying to say here in verse 23?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I would say that's comparison to the two covenants that you were just talking about, Dad. Flesh as an old covenant law, and uh son of the free woman through promises new covenant.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

So who is it? That's a great. I was just gonna ask, who is the promise given to? Everybody. Everybody's Abraham. Yeah, Abraham. So with the on the first covenant, the covenant of promise, the promise was given to Abraham through Sarah. Yeah, but the the promise was given to Abraham by God. Right. And so God says he's going to do something. Now, obviously, if you think that God's going to be faithful and loyal to what he says he's going to do, what would you call that?

unknown 26:12

Faith.

SPEAKER_05 26:13

Faith. What's the opposite of faith if you want to do it yourself? If you want to say, you know what? I'm not buying into the promise. I'm going to help you out, God.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Walking according to the flesh.

SPEAKER_05 26:26

To the flesh. So now you're seeing this. There's where we just didn't get into that, this side or that side. So Abraham has the faith. It's reckoned to him as righteousness. God loves it. He's pleased with trusting him. And you used to say a phrase, Scott, which was something trustworthy obedience. It was a loyalty type. I can't remember what believing loyalty? Yes. I think it was similar. Yeah, maybe that's it. Abraham had believing loyalty. Believing loyalty. Faith is not just intellectually agreeing that God could do or would do. It's trusting him to do it. And Abraham, that's what pleased God with Abraham. Sarah, not so much.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

So going into the believing loyalty thing. Yeah. And in this situation, do you think he's displayed believing loyalty at be like having having a child with Hagar who's a slave? Or is that believing loyalty that in this situation?

SPEAKER_05 27:32

And I'd ask the boys, do you think that do you think that uh Sarah's believing in God believing God's going to do what he says he's going to do, or does do they try to take their own route?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I think she took it in her own hands. She did take it in her own hands. And she, it's her handmaid and she delivered to Abraham. Right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

So at this in this story, my this is Scott. Abraham nor Sarah are displaying believing loyalty at this moment.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Because he follows through with it.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Abraham was just as guilty as Sarah. Yeah. So, and he's causing this conflict, right? This conflict between the two. Sounds familiar. So Garden of Eden. What's that? Garden of Eden. So they're both participants here. Not one is better than the other. But so in this situation, later on, though, I think he does display believing loyalty when he God told him to go sacrifice Isaac. Um, and that was believing loyalty. He displayed that. He and I think it's because of this situation here.

SPEAKER_05 28:43

But so here is a here is a example of Hagar is going to rip represent the flesh. She's going to represent doing it your own way. And that's going to be when when we when she's used as an allegory here, that's her. And that's going to represent a covenant of doing it yourself. And we all know what what covenant is that? The old covenant, which is the problem with this church with the church. So anyway, we're uh we're gonna use we're gonna see that that use of Hagar as that representative, and then Sarah is going to represent God's going to do it. Right. First, he has to do it. How old was do you guys know how old Sarah was at this point? Like a hundred years old. Yeah, she's she's not childbearing, she can't do it. There's no way. It has to be God. So this covenant that's going to be based on a promise and a deliverance of miracle to even allow her to have a baby, is so Sarah's going to represent the fulfillment, the new covenant.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

So the very next verse, we've kind of like skirted around. It says 24. This is allegorically for these women, are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai, bearing children who to be slaves, she is Hagar. The important thing here, all right, to remember when Hagar left the family group, it was said that she went to Arabia to settle in Arabia. So all her or Ishmael's descendants are in Arabia. So when he uses from Mount Sinai, Mount Sinai is in Arabia. So he's making the point here. It says allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai, bearing children who are to be slaves, she is a Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. Is it talking the same thing? Is he he brought up Jerusalem this time? This is a great point.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Yeah, yeah. Was Ishmael born as a slave within slavery? Yeah, in slavery, yeah. So born of the flesh, because it wasn't God's will, I mean it wasn't his plan, and born in slavery to a slave. And it represents the old covenant. And ironically enough, do you know where Hagar came from? You know what her you know what her origins were?

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Egypt.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Egypt.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

She's an Egyptian.

SPEAKER_05 32:19

Yeah. So the Israelites, you know, that's part of the, you know, it it ties in, I don't want to confuse everything, but coming out of Egypt into from slavery, the Israelites come out of Egypt in slavery, free, but put right back into slavery because of their disobedience under the what? What was given to them right after they got into the wilderness and screwed up. Ten commandments. Yeah. The law. Oh, so so they're the old covenant. So they go over, they get free, and they're they're just they build a golden back into slavery.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

So this is the Chad version again. Listen to this. It says in 25, it says, and now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law. So it's saying the children of Jerusalem and the children of Hagar are both the same. They're both under the law.

SPEAKER_05 33:20

Yeah. And where and what was what represented the law in Jerusalem, boys? What do you mean? What was that big building in the middle of Jerusalem?

SPEAKER_03 33:36

The one that uh might have been they might sacrifice things there.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

Yeah. The temple.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Yeah, the temple.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

So Jerusalem is ground zero for the law. It is, it is, it is that where the temple lot r resides. Yep. And Paul being a Pharisee before he came to Christ, before he was regenerated by by Jesus, you know, on that road to Damascus experience when he was born again, he was a representative of the covenant of slavery, being the old covenant, representing the Mosaic Law, as a Pharisee. And now he's writing after really getting the download that Jesus is Messiah. And now his life is hidden in Christ, and he's representing Christ, but he's qualified to make these comparisons.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

So in 26, and we'll read through here, it says, But the Jerusalem above is free. She's our mother. I don't know if you guys are picking this up, what this really is talking about. So again, I'll read this uh New Living Translation. Listen what this might say, and this might help you two, Isaiah or not Isaiah, sorry, Sam and Jonah answer this question. Says, but the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother. When you hear that, what point is he trying to make on this verse? Uh Jonah or Sam? It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 35:32

Sam, you mentioned this earlier, the differences between the two covenants. So if like what what's remember the spirit, one's spiritual and the other one is oh, just being physical versus spiritual.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

So this point here that Paul's making, Sam, is he's saying that Sarah is representing the spiritual. I'm overthinking it. Yeah, that's fine. You're good. So we as believers, we have a choice. We can walk by our flesh. Or walk by the spirit. Or walk by the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

So you can walk by like Hagar, or you can walk like Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Right, but then there what he's trying to make the point here is why would you want to walk like Hera, Hagar, and live under the law and do the law and do all this? Why wouldn't you want to live your life according to Sarah, which is free? It's the new it's in the spiritual realm, it's in the spiritual kingdom, it's not physical. Like your point there, Luke, you said physical versus spiritual.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

Yeah, and it's it's it's a choice, you know, and and Paul makes it a binary choice. Hagar represents living by your own strength, living under a covenant that condemns those who walk under the and that's why he said, You sure you want to, you know, you want to understand the law? You you're gonna need to do the whole law. Do you do why would you do it? I'm perplexed, he says. Why would I, why would you want to why would you want to live in an economy where you can never win? Right. You know, you can only get atoned and start over and try again, and then get atoned and then try again when there's a better covenant, a better, a better way of living, which is God does it just like God uh fulfilled the promise to Abraham and Sarah by bringing a pregnancy at ages, you know, a hundred years old. Trust God, believing loyalty. That's that's what God wants from us. He wants that's what's pleases him. And Paul is Paul's really the critical parent now, watching them start out with this grace message and walking in freedom and getting duped back into you know mental and spiritual slavery by combining an old covenant that's been made obsolete. And if if that offends anyone, just wait, because he's going to he's going to use language here when he talks about the old covenant, or we can say the bondwoman, and it's unmistakable.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Um I really love all you said. He is trying to make the point where you can't do the law and be free. You can't. And he's like, why do you want to do that? Do you really understand the law? And that's the point he was making. He's like, and going back, I love that word perplexed. He's like, I'm perplexed because why would you just left this? Now you're wanting to go back to that.

unknown 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:55

And then if anybody can say they were a champion of the law, if anybody could say that they they they did the law, right? It'd be Paul. It would be Paul. Right. So look, he's he's uniquely qualified to lay this out and to challenge these these new believers, you know, this new church and this growing church to say, a little leaven, you know, spoils the whole oaf. You know, you head down this path, you're, you're, you're, you've got now you've got something else. What you started with, you've allowed to be corrupted, and now you've got something else. So let's get back to what's right. Let's get back to the way you receive this, so that, you know, and so he this this analogy is uh or allegory is is a fantastic way of using scripture in the old testament to make a point in the in the new testament, you know, in the new church.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

My question to Sam or Jonah, have you been around people that try and around you try to do the law and try to be free at the same time? Is that is that something that maybe your age group is um at you see, or even adult older uh adults, do you see people trying to do uh both?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah, I see my dad do it. I see all I mean, we I guess we all try to do it a little bit, but we think it's well, what do we call it, cheapening grace.

SPEAKER_05 40:30

Trying to you know, pat our resumes and and I think for young people, it's you either see people that don't want any part of it because they don't think they can, or that it's too hard or it's too dull. Or they're so self-condemned that they're depri they have depression or they have anxiety because they feel like they just don't measure up. I I I think it's and and I I've seen your friends, you know, a lot of you know, some of your friends struggle with that and have heard about it more, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

So is that the way you agree with that, Jonah? Uh you've seen people like teeter-totter on that, law free, law free, lawful.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

People who who do a lot of works and they kind of condemn other people who maybe don't do as much. And it just takes me back to Romans 8.1. There's no condemnation. It's not like I was saying earlier, it's not Jesus plus. You know, it's you can't do anything to make Jesus love you more than he already does. Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:33

And and some people were brought up in that. They were brought up in a mix of Hagar and Sarah. I was. Yeah, and that's it's not an easy thing to escape from. And I think you've got to really walk away. You've really got to throw out the Bondwoman. You've got to, you've got to really spend away from that.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

It took me you many, many years to realize I didn't have I don't have to do these, this, this, this, this for God to love me. I don't have to do this, this, this, this. Like, I can give illustrations. I don't have to get up every morning and do a quiet time. I don't have to memorize scripture. I don't have to get in my car and listen to Christian music. I don't have to, but I want to do some of the I want to do those things out of desire and out of a love that I have for the Father.

unknown 42:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

And I have for Jesus. That's where that comes from. Not out of like, I need to do these things to be a good Christian. That's that's not, I mean, if you're doing that that way, you might want to look at why your your intentions there. And this is what they I mean, why wouldn't you just live in Jesus live live in the spirit, and the spirit will direct you?

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Yeah. And I think that it's interesting. The will of God for Sarah was to wait. What wait on the Lord. Right. I mean, he sent messengers down. He he the angel of the Lord had a conversation, you know. Well, that's you know, some would say that's Jesus, you know, and I I I think that. And I think, hey, God's going to come through. You're they've been encouraged that God's going to do what he says he's going to do. So the sin there, or what displeased God, wasn't that they did something wrong as much as they didn't wait. You know, they didn't wait because you don't hear you don't hear condemnation coming to Abraham and Sarah over this, which is weird. As a matter of fact, he blesses Hagar. Because she was just a pa she she didn't have a real choice in the matter. But this this goes back on they they did not have that believing loyalty on to God. If they would have just done nothing, it would have pleased God because they would have waited for him to come through with the promise. But no, that's just like us. If you're Christianity, if you think You're going to please God on your own strength and by your best efforts, then you're not reading the text. And at least if you're reading this text, I think it'll tell you this idea of freedom, the free woman. The free woman is somebody that walks by faith, which is having believing loyalty and trusting God to not only be who he is, but to look for his will in your own life. And how do I please him? You know? Right. So what what has he done for us? We well, that's so obvious, but how do we how do we please him? You know, we we trust him, we walk in believing loyalty, we walk by faith, not by sight.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Hey Jonah, um at what point was there a point you struggled with this whole Christian life, Christian walk?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Absolutely. No.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Would you like to share what that looked like for you uh looked like for you? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah. Um it it really all started say 2022. It was my sophomore year of college, and I I would call myself a believer back then, maybe maybe a half believer, maybe half in, half out.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

One toe in, one toe out. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

And you know, and I never took it serious. You know, I was in college and trying to take my own path and do my own thing, and I I just didn't have the interest and the time to get in the word and anything like that. Um, and this is coming right out of COVID, and I finished my freshman year, and everything went went really well in c in school, and I was in uh computer science. So then when when COVID happened, we all came back to school. Um, it was you know half online class, half in-person class. Um, and I started to really, really struggle in computer science and in school in general. Um, and that's when I started getting anxiety, and I was scared to go to class. I I didn't, I was kind of falling behind and behind um just because of the workload in computer science. It was to me, it felt like I was trying to learn Chinese and Arabic and Spanish all at the same time online, um, with not a lot of resources, and you know, it was killing me. It kind of brought me to my knees at one point. I think I think it would I would call it my first real prayer, um, besides little small prayers at the the dinner table, you know, following along with my dad. But um I was brought to my knees and I just the first time I ever you know called out to Jesus, if if you're there, I need you, and I'll follow you, but I'm I'm struggling here, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Um was that a was that an easy thing or a hard thing for you to do?

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Oh no, it was extremely hard to you know give that up, you know, because I'd never done it before, you know. I was I didn't I didn't think it was real at that at that point, to be honest. Um, but I I had nowhere else to go. And I went to bed that night and I I woke up and I was feeling a lot better. I actually called my dad uh that next day and he uh he helped walk me through it. You know, I got out a notebook and wrote wrote out my goals, and I uh had made the decision to leave uh computer science. So I I spoke with my advisor and um it actually worked out perfectly where I finished out the semester and I could I can drop the classes that were giving me all the you know the heartache and struggle and I could still pass with a a minor in computer science and just change majors. Um but it was the first time I had really called out to Jesus and it it felt to me like he answered it instantly. So after I mean after that day, I I've never gone back, and I've tried to put myself around strong Christians like Eck U Scott and like my dad and uh everybody on our Friday morning. If if you guys are listening, uh thank you guys, but it's it's been an amazing journey and I'm all uphill.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

So have you had opportunities along the way after realizing working through that? Have you had opportunities to help others along the way as well?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Not me, I mean, I'd like to think that just through my actions that I help others, but I haven't, you know, had one-on-one time with with struggling people. I mean, obviously, my my wife and I, we help each other.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

Um so let's talk about that, right? So fairly new marriage here. What does that look like for you two loving Jesus together? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

It's amazing, you know. I've never had a relationship like I have with my wife, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

And and we're well, it's not the first relationship with another female, is that correct? You've had many, right? You've had several couple, but this one is different because there's a dynamic there, right? Exactly. And and and that's Jesus, and that's Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

And just getting in the word together and learning it, and I know my dad has talked about it before. We have a a Sunday morning Bible study with the family. Um, all the wives and girlfriends are are there, and it's it's just encouraging to be able to do that with the with the person that I love most.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Now, along that, I'm sure you still have struggles, right, between you and her, right? Sure. It's not just you two walking with in in tune with Jesus isn't making it like rainbows and sunshine and flowers, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

I I don't think down here it'll ever be rainbows and sunshine. There's always stuff in the in the world that you know come in and kind of wreck you, but that's that's what the Lord's there for, is to you can always fall back onto him.

SPEAKER_05 50:29

And I I would say even from my point of view, it's uh she's very open to Christ and and has been since I met her. And so when they before they got married, we did we did some premarital, you know, counseling, and um and it was all based on you know starting right, you know, building your marriage on a covenant, a spiritual covenant, and be you know what it what does that mean? And um, it's always an easy button back to center if you see it that way. You see each other in Christ, and forgiveness isn't a it's a state of their marriage now, and it it's plenty of conflict in marriage, everybody knows that. But when you come back to center and see yourselves in Christ and see yourselves in a oneness relationship, it makes it a lot easier to work through the rough spots because each person is is uh striving for that righteousness, you know, that love of Christ. And I've seen them do it. I it's it's it's beautiful. And um early on, too. I think they're set up to win for sure.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Well, I'm very encouraged um by you, Jonah. And uh you're coming now every Friday and you're you're diving right in, and I see that, and uh I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your story.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Oh, I'm happy to be here. I I appreciate you inviting me on.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Yeah, and I hope people are encouraged, listen to him um with his story and how God has been a part of his life and what happened there, that transition, right? Where you fully were in 100%, and then how God has taken you through that and has brought you into the situation you're in now. And looking back, I'm sure do you think it it would have been where it is now?

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Oh, if I hadn't made that decision, yeah, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Yeah, it'd have been a little bit more difficult, a hundred times more difficult. Probably not have the wife you have either, right? Probably not. So good encouragement here for for people out there that are listening to this. Again, um, this is pursuing the heart, and it's uh God pursuing us, now we pursue him, and this is part one, and I hope you come back next week and listen to the 27 through 31. We're gonna have the same people on again. And I think next time uh there was one person, uh Sam. Sam's gonna be giving his story, so that'll be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Something like that.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Something like that. So I can't wait to hear that. That's that's gonna be really good. So I encourage you to come back next week. Also, please like, share, and subscribe to the podcast, post it out there, get it out there for people to listen to. It's it's basically we're just trying to reach people that might not know who Christ is, uh, or they want to have a deeper understanding who Christ is, or if they think they're gonna give up on their faith, and maybe they listen to this and it brings them to a little bit better, deeper connection with Christ, it is well worth it. And um, that's what we what's what we do. And um, what is that little tagline? Do you guys know? What's the one how we finish these podcasts?

SPEAKER_05 54:02

Yeah, keep your eyes on Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

K Y E O J. Keep your eyes on Jesus. I hope you come back next week. Thanks, you guys.