Galatians 5:1-12

Scott Blewett & Luke Dunnuck have an open discussion on Galatians 5:1-12. I hope you listen and enjoy the discussion...KYEOJ!!!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

All right, this is pursuing the heart. How's it going? Um, we come back to you. We're we're ready to push forward in Galatians. We had a couple weeks off. Sorry about that. And um just wanted to say thank you for all the listeners out there that's listening to us. God pursued us, now we pursue him. And I have Luke Dunnock on tonight as my co-host. It's just he and I tonight. What's up, Luke?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Not too much. How you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Doing great, doing great. Um, how's the how's the last week or two been?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

It's been good. It's been good, uneventful. Uneventful week, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, things are good.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Didn't you go out of town last week?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I did. I went to Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

You went to Wisconsin? Whereabouts in Wisconsin did you visit?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Appleton, Wisconsin, at a cybersecurity summit. So I'm in that kind of business.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So all right. Yeah, pretty good. Pretty good. And then your son Isaiah has a fight tomorrow night?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yes, he does. He's got a uh boxing match at uh the Tyndall Armory, which is downtown. So Golden Gloves, right? Golden Gloves, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

And then if he wins tomorrow night, he advances to the next round. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:20

He does.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And then the very next round will be the final championship. It'll be the championship, and if he wins that, he goes to nationals. So when, and you're gonna uh I just learned this uh yesterday, you're gonna be in his ring corner, right? Yep. Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Oh yeah, it's been a while. So okay. I was I was there last year, I guess, at the finals, but right.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, so you pretty excited about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, yeah, it'll be very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Now, when's tomorrow? Is the fight next week or two weeks? Next week. Next week, okay, all right. Well, if anybody's out there and they want to go watch him fight at the uh golden gloves at the arm Tyndall Armor Armory, is that how you say that in downtown Indy? Yep. Um, and cheer on Isaiah, he's been on the podcast, especially if he wins tomorrow night. We get some listeners down there to cheer him on the following week for the championship. That'd be really good. Yeah, that'd be great. Um, so uh again, this is pursuing the heart. Um, God pursued us, we pursue him now, and uh, we just try to show what it looks like if two people or more get together and have a casual conversation um concerning scripture, the word, and how we can process that together. Um, and it's an open discussion um between the people that are on the podcast because sometimes we might not agree on everything a hundred percent. And um, so it you can see how you can have a conversation and the other person might not agree with you, and you say, Hey, can you explain that? And then you listen to it, and you're like, Oh man, okay, I didn't think about it that way. Uh, Luke has done that to me, and I've done that to him, vice versa. And he will say, All right, I've never seen it that way before. And then I'll tell him, Hey, he'll call me, he'll be all excited about scripture. He's like, Have you ever seen it this way? And I'm like, No, I've never seen it that way. And and it's really cool, and it you know you're in a friendship at that point when you guys can read the word and just talk about what possibly the spirit is leading us to see and understand. Is that right, Luke?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And I think it's a blessing too, because you know, if you have a friend that's that's really into uh a certain topic that he's he's drilling into and putting time and effort into studying, and then he shares that with you, and you may not have gone in that far of uh the the depth that that your friend has gone into. And so you get the value of all that study. And so, and then that's vice versa. And I think it's a huge encouragement, encouragement, even an admonishment, I would say, to spend time with each other and you know, don't, don't uh what is that what does the Bible say in Hebrews? It says something about fellowship. Don't don't uh don't stop gathering together, which is common.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

But but really push to to have those meaningful relationships where you can talk about the things that matter.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

So yeah. Um, so tonight we left off uh Luke and his two sons. We did a whole chapter on the Bond woman and the free woman, and we're gonna pick up in five-one, but we're gonna do a little recap, but uh I'll open up in prayer tonight and uh and lay down a good prayer for us. Lord, just thank you for this uh podcast. Thank you for the uh people that are listening that we have never met or never spoken to, and I hope they get something from this that they can apply to their lives. Or if that one person is listening and they're like, oh man, I want to love Jesus. I want Jesus to be a part of my life, that is amazing. If one person listens and they were thinking about maybe walking away from their faith and listening to this podcast will give them pushback towards you, that's awesome as well. And if it's that one person that is growing in their faith and they just want to understand the word a little bit more, that's that's those it's that's beautiful as well. So Lord, I just uh I pray for that. I pray for the um pray for Tim this evening and and the others that we've had on uh on the podcast, and uh just be with them, and uh we just love you so much. Thank you. Amen. Amen. All right, so jump right on in here. So, Luke, we talked about the bond woman versus the free woman. We talked a lot about that that section in the Bible in chapter four of Galatians uh 21 through 31. There's so much meat in that, and there's so much that we could sit here and talk about what are some good recaps in that chapter, Luke.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

You know, I think the uh the the recap um kind of in the language or the reason we know we talked about, and I think it's it's huge to say why is he writing the letter, you know. So I think one of the recaps is what what's the purpose of this letter? And so and I think we decided the purpose is that you know the the two covenants, um we we have the covenant of Abraham, which is really the backdrop of the parallels. So he's telling the story of Abraham and and Sarah and Hagar, but he's using that that uh those characters to really contrast the difference between the Mosaic law, which was the Jewish law, you get in Exodus, and then uh it's the uh the new covenant, which is Jesus Christ, and it is the gospel. And so with a church in Galatia that has been introduced to the pure message of the gospel, which is Jesus Christ, and um since the inception of the church, there have been dis detractors or disruptors coming in and trying to reintegrate the old covenant, which is the Mosaic covenant, which had a purpose of preparation for the new covenant. But once the new covenant has come, then the old covenant is obsolete, which is it's served its purpose. And the language that's used that that we heard in in chapter four was pretty stark. Throw out the Bondwoman. And so you're gonna see more of that going into chapter five, I th I think. So it's it's you can't have both.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. Um, so he's I think Luke, I think you would agree with me. He's addressing the Jewish believers in that back part of that chapter. Because a Jewish person that went to the Church of Galatia or the Jewish person that would read this letter, they would really understand Sarah and Hagar during that time period. So we have to understand one thing about reading scripture is context. Who is the who is the written to? And then we put ourselves into that mindset, like, okay, if I'm a Jewish person and I have elevated Sarah to this place, I've also elevated the law at this place, too. And the law sometimes is going to be greater than Sarah back there, back then in the day. I mean, it was and Abraham, right? So it elevated that, the law over that. So he's addressing the Jewish people and saying, Hey, you're free, you are back under the Abrahamic covenant. You're you're like Sarah, the free woman who gave birth to Isaac because she was not the slave. Sarah's the slave, and in this comparison, this uh analogy he's using, he's comparing the it's she was a slavery, she was a slave. And Ishmael was born into slavery. He's using that thing, comparison to say, hey, the Jewish people are slaves right now to the law. This better covenant has come along, this new covenant, and it's Jesus Christ plus nothing, and you're free. You're not under the law, you're not a slave to the law anymore. You can rest in the assurance that Jesus Christ is the savior of everyone. Anyone who wants to come to him and believe in him, you are in fellowship, relationship with him, just like Abraham and Sarah was when they were in direct relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Let me let me I that is so good. Um, and that is the that is the good news, and your your um explanation of that with the emotion and the passion behind it is worthy of all of that. Um let me let me drill into each character real quick and the parallel, and then we we can probably move into five. But the uh you take Abraham, Abraham and and Genesis, uh Genesis, what was it, 519? Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Um God was God is the author of all of this. Abraham's focus was on God, and because he believed God, Abraham reckoned it to him as righteousness. So God is the main player in this. The second player is Sarah. Sarah had to rely on God because she was she she was unable to conceive. It it she had to rela just rest and rely on the promise, as did Abraham, that God would do a miracle and bring life from something dead. Her womb was dead. There was no no having a baby there.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

So I think I think she waited, God waited until she was right around 90 years old, and Abraham and Abraham was right around 100, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah, so so you've got Abraham who believed God, who is the main author and focus of our faith. You've got Sarah who was given a promise, and Sarah was free. She was living under the promise. And without God, there is no Isaac. Okay. Isaac, Isaac is a miracle child, a miracle child of the promise. And then you have Hagar, and and no, no ill will to Hagar, but when you don't, when you run out of faith and you stop trusting, then you've got to do it the hard way, which is on your own strength. And so they got plan B together, and then Hagar had a child that wasn't from the promise, which wasn't from God. And so even though God blessed, you know, that situation to a degree, not like Isaac, though, right? But you see that the covenants there is one, it's it's the promise is a focus on the deliver of the promise, God. Second is promise. Believe God, trust in God, and you're in good standing. But three, when you decide to do it the hard way, to do a man's covenant, which is the Mosaic covenant, which Hagar represents, that's when you roll into difficulty, and you're outside of the will of God when you're doing things apart from faith.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yep. Yeah, exactly. You hit it, you hit it hard. And and I will just add this so that people don't think that Hagar, God just rarely just kicked her out and disowned her. Actually, the Lord communicated, directly communicated with Hagar and loved on her and said, You will be taken care of and you will be blessed. So out of grace, that was grace. It was total grace, and it's actually in the first book of the Bible in Genesis, bro. It is crazy. So you have this interaction between, and this is significant, people, a person that is not of the family group that is the promise. That's right. She represents, she is a Egyptian slave, yeah, born in bondage, born in bondage, and so for God to come down and the Lord to come down and communicate with her and tell her it will be okay. That is so huge. And that whole thing, it's so it's like grace because she was just a participant in this knuckleheadness from Sarah and Abraham.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

She was she was a product of a lack of faith, a lack of faith at that moment, yes. And just to clarify, I'm I mentioned uh, you know, Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. That's Genesis 15, 6.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, and it's also so uh everybody that's probably listened to the podcast up to this point, we've hammered that point because in chapter four, if you go back in chapter three, uh chapter three, there's a lot about that. Abraham, it was it he was declared faithful because of his righteousness, and how look, you guys need to have some, you got to have faith in Christ, you gotta have faith in Jesus because He we are back under the Abrahamic covenant. We are now back to where it's faith alone. Just believe, have belief, faith, and trust in the the unseen God. The uh I have never seen Jesus, me personally. Luke, have you ever seen Jesus? Not in person, no. So here's the thing we have faith in the unseen, and we put that faith in there, we have then it is just like Abraham credited to us as righteousness because of our faith. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

And I think as we go into chapter five, there is a binary uh opposition here, which is free and slave. I mean, it's it's this or that, and the law represents uh slavery and Jesus, the gospel, the new covenant, represents freedom. Yes, and not to be intermixed, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

And I really think he is talking to the people who have put faith in Christ, then someone has come behind them and said, You need to have circumcision, you need to believe these laws, you can't eat pork, you can't do this. And they're like, and and Paul's like, Why are you doing that? Because you're not of the law, you're of Christ, and you and we're gonna see this today, and I I just I wanted to throw that out. He's talking right to the believer who fell in the trap of it's Jesus plus law.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, and I would say there's nobody in earshot of this podcast that is more qualified on in the law, and the I in the knowledge of the law or the understanding of the law than the author. Yeah. Paul is uniquely qualified. And so if you think it's okay to mix in a little bit of the old covenant or the the old the old testament teachings of what God looks to or looks for, or it was in agreement with the Jews on, and you think it's okay to add that into your Christianity, just listen to the language that Paul uses, knowing that he was a champion of that law.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I think we did a great job teeing that off. I'm just patting myself for, but um, this was 5-1 here. It says, it was not it was for freedom that Christ set us free. Therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Okay, this is a this is a great verse. You can camp out here all day, you can preach this every day, even all day, even on Sunday. I I say that all the time. Some stuff that we talk about, you can do, you can preach that, teach that every day, all day, even on Sunday. So he's basically saying you there is freedom because Christ set you free.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah. Put in a question for him. Like, what are you free from? And what are you free to do? What a great question, right? Like freedom. What does that mean? What does freedom mean in this context? What are you free from? And he's talking to the people that are starting to take on bondage, they're starting to take on some what what Paul would say a yoke. Right. And then what are you what are what are you giving up? What freedoms are you giving up in order to do that?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

So in society, to have freedoms in certain countries, they've had many a people have had to die for those freedoms to get to that freedom. Yeah. And then and then and then this circumstance, one person died for you to have freedom in him. Yeah. And we just went through that Easter and the whole celebration that he's not in the tomb. I hate I I just love knowing that he's not in the tomb, and I live that every day, and that's that freedom and understanding here that he's talking about. So it's in the back part of that verse, it says, do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. That yoke of slavery is why are you dipping back into the law? Why are you doing the Ten Commandments? Why are you why are you circumcising yourself? Why why not let Christ and the Holy Spirit just live through you?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

There is a there is a point that you're you're speaking in in the context of day-to-day. And I think that's important because a lot of Christians think about just the end. You know, when you die, are you going to have life or are you going to have death? And he's not talking about he's not talking about the end game here for the natural physical believer. He's talking about how you're living. Are you living with freedom? Or are you living with some yoke of slavery? Are you putting are you putting um requirements and and and unnecessary um stipulations on yourself so that your focus is off of the giver of life and onto an what I would say a mistaken expectation of things that that God expects from you.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, I I think it's a big difference between living a life that, hey, I got my ticket out of heaven or live in it with Christ every day.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

There's a big difference. I think that's the appeal of this podcast. And any good good message is like, hey, this this isn't uh this isn't a judgment scenario of God looking critically with expectations to to really hold you accountable to whatever. But God's God's joy and God's God's purpose is so that you can have life and have it abundantly. It's like I want you in my family with without with without the preparation. Once that's happened, if you're Jewish, there's no need for that. You cast out the bondwoman. But if you're a gentile, you gotta protect the pure gospel, which is Christ in you, full freedom that He's given you because of Him and His blood, and how how significant that sacrifice was that you can you can live in an eternal life. And hold on to that. Don't give that up. Don't don't be dis don't let anyone who sounds smart or who looks smart or who has um some unique vocabulary to try to steal your freedom. And you have to stand firm, which is what he says.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

That's what he says. And Paul says that uh stand firm. If you want to do a little fun word study, look in Paul's letters where it says stand firm, and there is some really good meat behind each one of those stand firms. I was flipping through some Paul letters this week, and that was something that popped off the page. Stand firm, stand firm. And it's all through his letters. He's telling, he's encouraging people, the believers, to stand firm in their faith. Stand firm. It's Jesus plus nothing.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I will tell you too, we're getting into where Paul starts out, you know, with with this idea of freedom and it's an encouragement. He's trying to encourage those that have received it to stand firm in it. Kind of a nice little intro. But Paul's a straight shooter. And he's probably about to fire some fastballs.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Right now, he's saying in two, verse two says, Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. So Paul makes a distinction. This is coming from him because it says, Behold, I, Paul. So sometimes I'll say in study on Fridays, or when I'm teaching people, hey, this is Scott. This is Scott, this is what Scott wants to tell you. And it might be from the spirit. I'm I'm thinking Paul, that's from the spirit there, but in this context, Paul saying, Hey, it's me, and I'm about to tell you, say that if you receive circumcision, Christ uh be of no benefit to you. Why did you why did you receive Christ when you're just gonna live the law? Is that what it's saying there, Luke?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah, and I think not only that, but your heritage is not going to save you. Right. Just because you were circumcised as a Jew.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And even the Gentile that's sitting there saying, Well, I I accepted Christ, and someone came in the church and they're like, Oh, well, then you're under this um obligation. Obligation because because uh, well, the next verse it says, and I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. So, in my my mind, a gentile who's sitting there and a Jewish person comes in and saying, Hey, you know, uh, we're the Jewish people. God had this awesome relationship with us in the old testament. They wouldn't say the in the the books of the prophets and the in the history that's in the old testament. We are his chosen people. We're no, we're the better people here to tell you how to live like a Jew. Yeah, yeah, they can give you the background. If they can give you the background, and they're like, hey, you gotta be circumcised, you can't eat pork, and you know what? That meat that was sold in the uh market that was given to the other little gs, you can't eat that either.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, there's a it it Romans does a great job of really saying the same thing here, building the context up. And if you if you want something to study to get, I think, a clear, like maybe more flavor to this chapter would be Romans chapter nine. And so it seems like Paul is firing a cannonball at what we called the disruptors or the Judaizers that were trying to bring Judaism back into the new covenant, and he is coming against them with with both hands, but he loves them, he loves his brethren. And in in Romans 9, he says, I would give up my salvation if I could save you, save if if he could save the Jewish nation, his brethren. So he's a proud Jewish heritage man, but he has he has been baptized into Jesus Christ, so he is a new man. Yeah, and he's not he as as much as he appreciates his brethren and his heritage, he is not going to let that enter into um a stumbling block for these new Christians, and so he's coming with a really strong language.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

So in in verse four, it says, You have been severed from Christ. You who are seeking to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace. I think there's people today that want to be justified by the law. Hey, I gotta read my Bible, I gotta pray every day, I gotta memorize scripture. I know that's not who they're talking to here, but it just hit me when I was reading that. I was like, there are people today that says I have to do these things, but you don't do them out of a have to, you do them because you love to do those things. Because you want to. Right. Well, if I'm gonna want to learn about Jesus or the Father, I'm gonna read more about him in the word. And it's going in the spirit's going to reveal mysteries and secrets and just reveal, just hit the heart of who God is and who Christ is.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah, it really doesn't even make sense if you think about it. Like right. Because Paul says, hey, okay, you want to take on part of the law, you're gonna have to take on all of the law. I mean, he really does. It's all or nothing.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

All or nothing. And he um he says it right there. Yeah, he said it in the previous verse, and then this one saying, Um, you've been severed from Christ, you are seeking to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace. For we, through the spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness, which is better.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Yeah, it's better. Severed is a it's like a cut. Like if you think about it, what's sever, you get you sever with a blade. You know, it's it's a it's a clean, like a clean cut. You know, that same language is used when it talks about cutting covenant.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

You know, when when Abraham, you know, when God had Abraham cut the animals and split them back in in Genesis 15. It it's the same idea because if you're adding law, sprinkling in something else, you have a different gospel.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, and um if you are doing things as like justified by the law, or you feel obligated to do these things for Jesus or for God, you're not obligated to do those things. You want you would want I want to do this. I want to come on here and share people who Christ is. I don't have to do this. I'm not obligated to do this, I'm not obligated to go to church, I'm not obligated to read my Bible, I'm not obligated to do those things. But if I'm feel like I'm obligated and I'm doing them, I'm just checking the boxes. Okay, I read the Bible in a year. I I prayed every day this year. But if it's not coming from the heart and it's not connected to the spirit, it's pretty much not, it's useless. I mean it's useless at the end of the day. He's saying here, he's he's saying here, do it because you love Jesus. You want to grow. I mean, I that's just I went off on a little aside, but well, here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

The reason people are down on Christianity is because we're not hard enough on this fact as Christians and as a church. You know, we allow people to sprinkle in a little law here, a little law there. Yeah, you know, they start they start building expectations of, you know, hey, let's keep track, let's keep track of how many conversions, how many times have you shared all this activity, this Christian activity, and then all of a sudden, you know, you got you got people that are that are measuring other people based on a law-like, you know, economy in the church. And here's the here's the thing. If if you look at somebody and you feel like they're measuring you against some standard that they don't even keep or that you are doubt whether this is the same thing. You might as well be writing the Galatians to a legalistic church.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

You know, or a legalistic person in the church. But the way we talk in our group is if you lock eyes with anyone that's a Christian, and especially in our group, because we hang out together, is you need to see them in Christ. You see them as holy, blameless, beyond reproach. They are in Jesus, they are baptized into the same Christ you are, they have everything you have in Christ. And we need to look at each other and just love each other as brothers.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

And view each other as the same, as this, like, there's no hierarchy. There's no distinction. And and by the way, that's really what people want. They want to be accepted for who they are, and they want to know that if if they come into this, this, this covenant of Jesus Christ, that it's real. And if you look at somebody that's a Christian and you treat them as if you're, you know, they're your brother or sister in Christ and love them like it's like it's so because you believe it, they're going to experience love on a higher level. Yep. And I think Paul ends, you know, uh this verse six.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

I love six. It says it says it right there. For in G in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor circumcision nor circumcision. I'm sorry. I'm from Georgia. Uh circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Oh, love. It's just it, man. You you I love this person. I might not wanted to love that person, but it's because of Christ loved me and gave me grace. I need to love and give grace to other people. Did I did I just should on everybody?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Not at all. I I think that's the whole purpose of this thing. If if you had to say what's God's will for you, you know, I would say it's this the last it's the tail end of this sentence here. It says, Walk I would just say walk by faith working through love.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Just do that. Like that's it. It's really that's really it, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

It's really hard to love people and assume you can't.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Assume you needed Christ to do that through you, through the power of the Holy Spirit. And there you go.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

I have gotten I've gotten a lot better over the last 30 years of loving people. And I love people, it's because I understand that Christ loved me so much that he gave his life for me. And why wouldn't I love a brother or sister or an individual that maybe others probably don't see and don't want to love, you know? And it's just we show that in faith working through love. Love and and it's and then and that's going back to what we said earlier. If you're basing it out of, I love Christ, I want to do this, I love reading the Bible, I love talking to God, I love going into my car or my vehicle, and listening to whatever Christian music, whatever is going to get you in that worship mind. My wife caught me the other day. I had uh some music playing in my living room, and there's a song, and I was just worshiping Jesus, and she's like, man, that's awesome. She came right out of the out of the bedroom. I thought I had plenty of other, I had plenty of time before she would come out, and this song came on, and I'm just sitting there worshiping God because I love I love him, man. And it's out of that love. And I'm sure you do the same thing, Luke, but it's like I don't do that because I have to. It's because I understand who he is, and I think that's what he's trying to say in that verse.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Well, I think you have to understand the economy here. You have to understand the source, the power of where this comes from. I mean, we all have preferences and personality differences and things and people that maybe like like Tim told me the once he goes, you really weren't my cup of tea. You know, and I was like, I knew what that meant, and I'm like, that's because we're different, you know, and and different enough to where we might, you know, we might, we might rub, you know what I mean, create create some some negative, like I guess initial feelings. But we continue to pursue Jesus in the heart of Christ, you know, and see each other in in Christ. When I see see Tim, I see, I see him in in Christ, a man that's been baptized into Christ, and he sees me the same way. And when we we do that, those preferences lessen, you know, those differences, and we're we're able to show each other love and respect. Yeah, you know, but that's gotta come from a seat of Jesus Christ in each one of us.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

That comes from people who all both of you are pursuing Christ in your own way, and you're you're you're growing in your faith. And as you're growing in your faith, and you guys have connected, came together because both of us or both of you are in a study, and at first, yeah, but it is the love of Christ who has brought you two together, and you guys are you, you know, you guys got a good friendship.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah, and he works at it too. He, you know, he hands me so many notes. Like, like I'll be sitting in church. I haven't got a one right here, probably. And next thing you know, I got a piece of paper that slides out in front of me. And now, mind you, he I'm not his cup of tea.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah, he told me, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

And and I I I think it's hilarious because I I wouldn't be my cup of tea either, you know. And and so, but then here he's always he's sent, he's probably sent me 30 of these things, 20 of these things. I see that. And and just for no reason, just and and encourages me, and which means it it just sort of tells me that even though he wants to, he wants to love me. And he and he he's probably worked himself into some some affinity for me now that that that God has given him, which I I sense and I feel. So it it's it's neat when um you're built for love and you're built for working through those preferences, and you're built for not seeing somebody as circumcised or uncircumcised. You're not gonna go into a church and start seeing yourself on a level and others on a different level. Yep. It's if anything, you put the you put the lesser first. Like everything is backwards in real Christianity. It's really backwards, and it's beautiful backwards.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Listen to this seven here. Seven says, you are running well. Okay, meaning you were growing in your faith. That's the way I take that. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I thought all three of those went together. It's like you were running a you were doing really well. You were you were loving Jesus. Who came and gave you a stinking thinking and told you to get off and it got you off track? Did you listen to someone who taught you something that possibly wasn't true? And why are you doing this? And then that persuasion. This is where I think I've mentioned this before. You hold every thought captive. If you hear someone say something that might you think might be not true, or there is doubt there, like uh, I don't know what he just said was, or she said, hmm, I don't know if that's truth. And then you go to the word, yes, say someone that you are uh like a mentor or a um person of of higher faith than you, and you go to them and say, Hey, what do you think about this thought here? Okay, I've done that many a times. But if you don't do that and you hold that thought captive, like, oh yeah, that person was that person was dead on. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's truth. That's what he's saying. This persuasion did not come from him who calls you.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

It's like it's like it says obeying the truth. And then you might say, Well, what's he talking about? Well, it's the sentence we just talked about, um, which is but faith working through love, like the gospel, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ being reflected through you as being the purpose of life, that faith working itself out through love. And so here they are, they're living in this kind of a higher level, you know, of of grace and love. And then next thing you know, people come in, they're appealing to the flesh, which is that's not enough. And and we're very susceptible to that. I'm very susceptible to somebody leading me down a train of thought that ah, this isn't enough. I'm not enough. And I'm a I'm a big, hey, let's self-improve, you know, let's let's make myself enough. You know, and I I'm really I get I get I'm attracted to the I'm attracted to uh fleshly ideas of you know getting better you know goals, getting better. Well, that's just not it. That's not Christianity because you get focused back on yourself, you know. I'm not enough. Um, what I'm doing is not enough. My Christian life is not reflecting uh an adequate level of activity or an adequate level of behavior. And next thing you know, you're you're off track, and now you're now you're feeling threatened, you feel fear, you're comparing, you're contrasting, and you know, you compare yourself with others, that's the thief of joy. Next thing you know, you're you're not really enjoying your Christian walk anymore because you've taken your eye off of the ball. Yeah, you have. And uh, and then you know, Paul could come in and say, You were running so well, you were living in the abundant life with joy, and you were you were you were living by the power from above. Yeah, you were understanding truth, yeah, and joy peace. Not good circumstances either. That's not the same thing. No, but when you're at peace in all circumstances because you're focused on the the the giver of life and your your best friend Jesus Christ, and next thing you know, you're off the mark, and you know, but it's so easy to come back. It's and and that's what Paul's trying to do. He's trying to encourage the church, get back to the basics, get back to Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Throw out throw out the bond woman, throw out the law, throw out and listen to this next verse by throwing out I have confidence in you and the Lord that you will adopt no other view. But the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted?

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

He's he's going right out to the people that have come into this church and called them directly. He didn't say any names, but they know who they are. If they I'm sure they're gonna be aware of this letter. And even to the congregations, like, hey, I have confidence that you're gonna turn back to the Lord. Yeah. You're gonna you're gonna see that freedom in Christ is better than what you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

You know, you've heard that idea of your first love, you know, should be Jesus Christ. Yeah. You know, and if somebody's got their first love is Jesus Christ, then Paul can say, and I could say, and you could say, or anyone can say, is I have confidence in you in the Lord. Like, I wouldn't put a whole lot of confidence in me apart from the Lord, just to tell you the truth. Like No, but apart from the Lord, I'm not not who that is. Like if your identity is in Christ, then people can have confidence of Christ in you. And that is supernatural. And that's that's a that's that's a high calling, but it's also something that you have attained. You have you have received that. You have a ownership of the power of above, which is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, right? And and and approval from the Father. So when you encourage somebody, don't encourage them, stop doing what you're doing, stop, don't take a legal approach to it or an old covenant approach to it. You know, remind them, I have confidence in you in Christ, in the Lord. That if that if you call upon him and you you rely on him and you trust him and you walk in his strength, you're going to work this thing out. The situation will not be the same in a short time from now.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah. Verse 11, going back to what going uh continuing what you're saying here. I was just looking at 11. 11 says, but if I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, all right, hold on. Take a little pause. In the past, when he was the best of the best Jewish person, he would preach circumcision. Am I correct there, Luke? Yeah. So then he's saying, Why am I still persecuted? So he's saying, I'm not per preaching circumcision because if so, why am why am I still persecuted? Because you're going against circumcision, you're going against the law. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

If that word if right there, yeah, you know, because they're coming in undoing his message.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Yeah. And he's saying, he's saying, why am I still persecuted? And he's like, because I'm speaking the truth going against the truth. I'm speaking the new covenant. I'm I'm speaking Christ. I'm speaking Jesus. I am being persecuted because of that. And the Jewish people are persecuting me now, coming after me, lip whips.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

This is a two-faced. Yeah, this is a two-faced believer in the church here. So they're coming in, they know Paul's background, and Paul's telling uh the church as a whole, Jew and Gentile, that Christ is pretty much the end of circumcision and the law. He's better. He has, he has, he has made those two things obsolete. I mean, that's in the context of what's been written. But these these Jew Judaizers who are coming from the brethren are from his background, and he's now he's he's dealing with them directly. And he's saying, if I preach circumcision, which he doesn't, you know, right, obviously, then why am I being persecuted? Right. Because he's calling them persecutors of the church.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Well, if you go, okay, so you you go down, yeah. You go to 12, he goes, I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. Yeah, go ahead and circumcise yourself the whole way. The whole way. Don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah. Why do a little? Just do a lot.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Just mutilate your whole self.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

I got a big kick out of this when I was a new Christian.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

I was like, man, he's bringing heat here. He brought heat. He's bringing heat to them because he is getting so frustrated and so upset at these individuals that he probably knows is coming in and teaching a different gospel than Christ. And in and having a different gospel that Jesus died on the cross, went in the tomb, rose again, ascended and ascended, and seated at the right hand of the Father, and now the Holy Spirit has come to indwell us, to be Christ in us, given us this new heart, not a heart of stone, a heart of flesh, and we have this love for Jesus, our love for people. And he's just like, You have come back in behind that and just added this, this, this, this. Man, I wish you'd just mutilate yourselves because this is not the truth. It is not that way.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah. Do you mind if I uncork it just a little bit here?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I I have uh I feel like I've been too patient in the past. And with people that want to balance what you would call like combine the two covenants, or even bring in a little bit, or you know, give a friend that says meatballing this thing together, you know. Right. Here's the here's the real the real thing is when they hear the words freedom, like in Paul let off, you know, chapter five with freedom, is there's this fear, and that's what legalism does. It drives fear because they want to control, they want to control the outcome of the gospel and those who follow the gospel. They want to say, yes, it's Jesus, but they use the word but which negates, like Paul would say, you've severed. Now you have a different message. What they want is they want controllable behavior. And here's the thing that people say, you know, you take freedom too far, you take grace too far. And I just say, I don't think we take it far enough because if you bring something else other than Christ, which is some natural type of expectations or, you know, preferences or leadership in areas of behavior or whatever, then you are not trusting, like Paul says, You're not putting confidence in Christ in you or Christ in your believers. And you you can call balls and strikes on bad behavior because bad behavior has a has a it has a reward of its own that's not good.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

No.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

But if you're if you if if you if you don't think Christ is enough, if you don't think the new covenant is enough, you you you are disrespecting the blood of Christ, the indwelling spirit of of God, and the Holy Spirit, and the actual will of God to put that covenant in place.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah, Paul even says what in Romans, which you were teaching out of on Sundays, that what you should go out and sin so grace can increase? Never, never it be. Never it be. Because you don't you don't need to do that. And if you understand who Christ is and you understand what he did for you, you understand the sacrifice he gave himself for you to have this freedom in him, why would you continue to go out and do whatever you want to do? Why would you do that? I think it comes out of more of an immaturity thing than a maturity thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah, I think it's flesh, it's just flesh, it's association with something that makes you comfortable. So you can do that over, you know, uh, oh, I'm I'm this denomination or I'm this, or it it the the cross levels the playing field. He says either circumcision or non-circumcision, it doesn't matter. Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

And that's just uh that's the thing that he's using here.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

But you can insert whatever that would be. Well, he says in Romans 9, he says, some of you who are Israel are not Israel. He's basically saying if we're gonna compare, yes, that your heritage and your circumcision does not compare to the unity that's in Christ for believers that come from any background. And that is the fact. That is the that is the that is the gospel, that is the church, and you you cast it out, or he says even cast out the bond woman, there goes the law, and then circumcision you'll severs you from Christ if you think that's where life is and you think that's where justification is. So there he's taken he's taken off both legs of a disturbing influence. I think we've had a great discussion tonight. Um burning hot right now, sorry. What's that? I'm burning a little hot right now.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

I get passionate about this because this is a very passionate chapter, just because um there's both sides of this. You know, you got people that are religious that say you have you you you're doing you you should be doing that, and they're looking at your behavior, not who you are. And then you have guys that are coming in teaching other things, like it's not even truth, you know. It's like, have you read the Bible? Have you have you read what Paul says? I mean, here's the thing: I have never been to biblical school, I have never been to college, but there are some things Andrew Farley says this greatly. You read it, it's sometimes just so simple that it's hard to take because it's so simple. Yeah, why make it more difficult than it is? Because it's pretty plain. I don't know if any of those verses that were like difficult. It might be to some people, but I'm just saying, like you read this, it's some of those verses are straight to the point. Oh, yeah, they're fine.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I I I'll tell you a quick story, and I know we gotta go, but we don't have a go because I was gonna talk to talk to you about something, but go ahead. So I get confront so I'm a Christian. I'm I'm in I'm in this thing for like two and a half years, three years, and passionate about it. I think you know, I it it's just so blessed that it was so real to me that I I really have I don't know, I was just so impacted by the gospel, by Jesus Christ, and um really, really, really thankful for that. And then a couple years into it, I got confronted by these these two guys from the Boston Church of Christ, and it was a cult, and they they basically had you know kind of wooed me into a relationship, and they were cool guys. One was a one was a college football player, and one was a uh from North Carolina, the other one was from Duke and was a basketball player, played for Shisewski. I mean, so I'm blaming all of these guys, kind of, you know. And when it got down to the point of it, it was like you your baptism that you got as a new believer wasn't enough. You have to be baptized into our church for it to be legitimate or real. And I had actually gone to church with them a couple times before we got down to the brass tacks of it. And I was so angry with them. Like I had tasted the kindness of the Lord, and I had to say, is was that real or or am I gonna listen to these disturbers of my peace? And I let them have it, man. It was such a bad ending. It was in a Starbucks, and I go, I feel I was even like, you will answer for disturbing a child of God. You know, you have got me so disturbed right now, I feel just violent because you're telling me that Christ isn't enough. I had to have it in your your flavor. And uh I'll never forget that. But I was like, whenever I read the defense of the gospel and the purity of the gospel, it makes me think of those things. And I'm sure those guys, I pray for them. I hope they I hope they they came around, and I'm sure they did. They were great guys. They just they were off and they were disturbing others, and it was just they disturbed me, that's for sure. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

I just want I just want you to hear this tonight. You and I met in 2017.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

You started a Bible study the year or two years prior to that. I came to your Bible study because I had just recently lost my job, and I was like, where's the best place to go? Go to a Bible study because I need I need focus. I was off my track. You put me on track, back on track, you have encouraged me, you have built me up, you gave me an hour of the study where I was the old testament dude, and you were New Testament, and then through a series of events or things that just happened, you came to the conclusion where probably most people wouldn't have done is you turned over the whole Bible study to me. And then you have encouraged me, you've pushed me. I'm leaning more in Christ, and I've leaned more into the word through this whole transition. And I just want to tell you I owe you a big thank you. And I just want to let you know that it doesn't go lightly what transpired through the whole thing of series of events, right? That of you know, I think we tease each other and your kids tease me, and I could I tease them, and they say, yo, come on. But here's the thing. Um if it wasn't for the love of Jesus for from you and the love of Jesus coming out of me, we both would we might have been gone gone in a different direction. Yeah. But you handled it perfectly, and we are meeting still on Fridays, we're meeting for two hours, and you're there as you said you would not miss it for the for anything, and you add so much to the study, right? And I'm just telling you I love you, and I wanted just to take the five minutes to acknowledge the big thing you did, and it didn't go unnoticed.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

And thank you. You know, I'm just gonna receive that. I'm gonna say you're welcome. And I'll I'll I'll just want to say that it was so easy to do for me because I saw it play out. I I mean it was natural. I'll just say when the spirit works, you know, in in your life, especially in your relationships, and your wants your wants line up with the will of God. And, you know, as a coach, I've been a coach really for the last 30 years, and I don't think I taught you anything new from a knowledge standpoint, but I think the way God orchestrated it, it was an encouragement. And so I used to say that children aren't vessels to be filled, they're candles to be lit. And I just watched you light up. I watch, I watch your I watch you and I and you remember what I said, you're in the what? Spot. Spot. The slot. Slot, sorry. So every now and then you'll see God put do a work in someone's life, and they get just put right into an eff they're effective. They're just they're overly effective, and you're like, okay, get out of the way. Watch like this like the hot hand in a basketball game. Somebody's got the slot and they're they're lighting it up. Feed them the ball, you know? And there was just something about your teaching through the old testament, even some of like we were teaching through the book of Job, and it was exciting. And it was like there was just something, it was a hand of God working in your life, and I just have seen it. And then and and I I everyone sees it. It's just on this not unusual. Anyone that's been in that Bible study will say the same thing. There have been there have been guys that come into that study that make Scott and I both nervous. We're like, oh, they're gonna, they're not gonna like it, you know, or we're like, these guys are pretty, these guys are pretty well respected guys, and they're blessed. They get blessed by it. And then um, so thank you for that because it's sometimes when God works, he works on moving you over and letting somebody roll, you know. And if you're prideful and you and you fight that, you'll miss some, you'll miss the blessing. You have touched my kids' lives so much. I I I mean, I've got they're all in Bible studies on Sundays. You had a hand in that. I think some of them, most of them are on Fridays too now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Oh, they're yeah, so then they go, they don't want to miss it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

So this is abundant life. If you want to know what it looks like in my mind, having having a brother in Christ that is for you and there's no competition. There's just a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun, and it's it like I say, we jab at each other, but um God's been working through both of us, and it's it's been special. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yeah, it's just uh awesome. Um, I just want everybody to know uh this is pursuing the heart. Uh God pursued me. Now I pursue him. And um please like, subscribe, and share the podcast. If there's one out there that you like over others, or if you like several of them, share them on social media. Uh the only way this is going to grow, and the only way that other people listen will learn to listen or just want to listen to this study or listen to this podcast is through word of mouth or through seeing it on social media. So do us a favor. Um, if you love, if you like the podcast, like, subscribe, and share. If you don't like the podcast, let us know what you don't like about it. Um, we have an email, it's called pursuing the heart at gmail.com. I've thrown this out several different podcasts. I have yet to receive one email. Well, excuse me. I had one email, but the person he he sent it to me, it was really good. But I'm just saying, if you are a listener out there and you listen to this and you want to encourage us or let us know what we could do differently, feel free. It won't go unnoticed. How about that? So um, we love you guys. And before we wrap up, there's this uh tagline that we use. Uh Luke, what was that? Keep your eyes on Jesus. K Y E O J. Folks, there's nothing any better than that. Keep your eyes on Jesus. I hope you come back the next time. Have a good one.