Pursuing the Heart
Pursuing the Heart Podcast is a Faith Based Podcast. We believe God Pursued Me & Now I Pursue Him. We would like to show how people can have an open Bible discussion in a casual setting. Each episode going through a verse by verse study of the Bible. We will have guest on episodes sharing a personal story of how God has changed their life. We hope you listen and enjoy...KYEOJ!!!
Pursuing the Heart
Galatians 5: 13-17 & Matt's Story
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Scott Blewett, Tim Hunter, and Matt Tully talk about Galatians. Then Matt shares his story. I hope you listen and enjoy...KYEOJ!!!
Hey, what's up? This is uh Pursuing the Heart. God pursued me. Now I'm pursuing him. And guess what? We got our co-host back. Back, Tim Hunter.
SPEAKER_01I'm back and somewhat rested. Uh tell us how Malachi is. Oh, so well, I pressed up who Malachi even is.
SPEAKER_00Well, I said last week.
SPEAKER_01You did say last week, yes.
SPEAKER_00That you have a new baby, boy, which I got to hold. I didn't let the head hit the table this time, but I was holding, I was holding the baby really, really well and just loving on it. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, Malachi Thaddeus Hunter came into the world on April Fool's Day with a broken humerus. So that's there's comedy in there, I bet.
SPEAKER_00So just continue praying for him, his baby there, Malachi.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, prayers are always welcome. He is healing very well. We're three weeks old tomorrow. Uh, but yeah, he is um he's doing so well. The the arm and how the Lord makes our bodies is miraculous. It's it's literally just held up by a pin pinned to his shirt as a makeshift sling, and that was what the recommendation was from the orthopedic uh guy we saw. I just yeah, I was amazed by that. It's crazy. It was yeah, according to our OBGYN, she goes, she came in and I could listen to her all day. Oh, okay. How she speaks. She was like, Yes, it was a very impressive break. It was like Mrs. Doubtfire-esque. Okay. And I'm like, wow, this sounds this sounds like not so bad. And I look at it, it's complete X, like on a map for a treasure map like that. It doesn't look great. No, that does not. No. But he's doing very well. Um, we've been taking him to the chiropractor, get working on his body because there's so much tension when you come out. And I tell you what, if you you have a newborn, it I recommend the chiropractor, you know, right away. Yeah, I've heard that. And it does wonders, not just for you know, just aligning the spine to make sure that the brain's beacon down.
SPEAKER_00We're being kind of rude because he'll be okay. We have a guest on tonight. He told me to talk about this, and it's Matt Tully. I don't hear about Malachi. Okay, go ahead. All right. Well, anyone, everybody, we do have no, no, it we do have a special guest tonight. We do. Matt Tully. So go ahead, continue talking about Malachi.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for the time, Matt. Uh yeah, where was I going? Oh, just wrapped to wrap this up. Yes, the spine, you know, for the newborns, the the collet, the gas, all the things. When you take and you your your spine, your brain can talk the rest of your body, how the Lord wants desired it to be, when it's fully aligned, like there's so much relief in in our bodies that the communication signals from here to here, I say I'm pointing from the brain down to your toes, is aligned. You know, your body just heals itself in so many ways. And I I believe that that's the way the Lord designed it. But go over to Matt till I let him talk about his spine if he wants.
SPEAKER_00You want to tell everybody who you are?
SPEAKER_03The uh I'm a friend of yours in both of us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Matt um Matt told me one day that I was the first person he ever well, excuse me. I was one of the people he invited to the great banquet, but I was the first to say yes. Is that correct?
unknownThat's right.
SPEAKER_00Wow. What were you? Oh, for what?
SPEAKER_03My batting average was the worst. So Blue was like, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00I mean, 30%'s great in baseball. I didn't know if that was if that was encouraging or uh what am I doing, Matt, if I'm the only one that said yes.
SPEAKER_03You reminded me of my dating life of how many girls you asked for their phone number and one finally says yes. Like, really? It's like a dog chasing a car and you finally got it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay, now what?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I do with this.
SPEAKER_00Matt kept on checking on me through the weekend, and he's like, every dinner, he's like, hey, how's it going? I'm like, oh, I'm doing great. Everything's fine. Wow. Yeah. Well, yeah. It was a great banquet, though. Thanks, Matt. Great. They're all great. Yeah, yeah. Um, Matt is an IU grad, right? I am very proud IU grad.
SPEAKER_03I am a proud IU grad, yeah. I was a sad IU grad for decades and decades, but worth it, right? If it was worth it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Tim's a sad uh Purdue grad.
SPEAKER_01We don't got to talk about that. We're talking about Matt and IU. And I I love that my U friends are celebrating. That's so amazing for them. Good for them.
SPEAKER_03Uh I'm gonna tell you really one of my questions when I get to heaven, I was I had two questions. Okay. One was what happened to the dinosaurs? The other question was be why did why did God hate IU football so much? I only have I'm down to one question. No, you're only down to one question.
SPEAKER_00Curses and blessings, dinosaur question, you said? All right, okay. Hopefully you get to ask that. I think you will. I think you will.
SPEAKER_03I think I'll get there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you could be in. You might want to ask Noah. You could say, hey, Noah, were there dinosaurs in the ark? So that would be a good question.
SPEAKER_03That would be a good question. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not mad about it. It's good.
SPEAKER_00So if anybody's ever been to the ark exhibit in uh the greater uh Kentucky, uh, it has a full actual size of what an arc would have been based on the uh dimensions in the Bible. And they have their own take on the dinosaurs, and it's a very interesting take. And I tell every I tell everybody, I highly encourage everybody to go see the Ark and also go see the Creation Museum, which is a great one. No, they're actually two separate locations in Kentucky, though, right? Right, but one's on the bypass and one's on 75 whole uh going south. The Ark is on 75 going south, and the Creation Museum is on the bypass going around Cincinnati.
SPEAKER_03Really? Okay, I thought they were right next to each other.
SPEAKER_00The Creation Museum has a great concept of what I was taught on when I was in a Christian um school going up, uh growing up about how um the earth might look like pre uh pre-flood and their take on that. And and it's a very interesting take.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I highly encourage uh people who are listening, if they are in that area in the Cincinnati area, to take a day and or two days and not do what I did. I rushed through the creation museum because I was like, okay, this is cool. That's cool, that's cool. I just kept on going to different exhibits, and I think I made some people upset that was with me. Yeah, but um the arc encounter, we kind of took it a little slower, and then uh they ride you so you you park in this park huge parking lot like Scooby-Doo Road 2 or whatever, and then you get on a bus and they take you around, and then all of a sudden you go up this hill, and then all of a sudden you see, oh, that's the arc. And then you get closer and closer, and it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03So would you guys agree that uh creation and or eschatology are not hills to die on? No, you think that's weak.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh you ask for our opinion. I'm like, nah, you can have an opinion.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I've got opinions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I th I think everybody does. Yeah, but no one really actually knows, right?
SPEAKER_03And having a different opinion, I can appreciate others' opinions. Uh, but I just I I do. I mean, even with our own minister that we all share, I have different thoughts on things, but we share identity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I I think that that is just I've just seen it bring too much joy to people's lives.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a lot of conversation, right, Matt, that people have read the Bible and they believe a certain thing. And then when I read it, I don't see that, but I like listening to those people. That's what this podcast is about. So the cod the podcast is set up to where we have open conversations. And there could be people that have come on that have said something that I'm like, oh, that's a little different than okay. Can you explain that? And I listen to it. Now, after they leave, I will go in the word and I pray about it. I'm like, okay, show me if I, you know, let's let's read this. And then I've done this before. I'll read it, I'll take it, and I'm like, I'm still struggling. I think, I think he might be correct, or I might be the I think I'm struggling here. I'm on the fence, and then that's where I pick up my phone and I'll call Matt Tully. I'll call Keith. No, this god honest truth. I'll call Keith. I've done this before. I've called Keith uh Tyner and I've called Rusty and I'll call Luke. And I'll just get kind of like their takes on that, and then you know, Keith will probably be like, uh, well, it really doesn't really matter, right? You know, but it's so it's not just like impression. So really good terrible impression, but anyway, that's a very good impression. It was great. It was really good. You just like keep your eyes on Jesus, that's all the way you need to do. I'm like, okay, no problem. And so anyway, um, and then Rusty will be like, well, I don't, you know, keep your eyes on Jesus. Right. Get out of the weeds, get out of the weeds, you're in the weeds, blew it. And I'll be like, okay, no problem. But anyway, and that's where I get I listen to other believers and they help me understand what I possibly read, and then what I also might have read on the internet, or what a friend of mine has said about a certain topic. And I'll pray about it. And then my wife and I talk about it. And I know we we we're gonna get in the Bible study, but a little longer. I was sitting at a uh church service and one time, and I'm not gonna name the church, it wasn't left, it wasn't our you know, leaving. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, I look at my wife, I said, That's some bad theology. And I said it really like where no one could hear me, right? So no one heard me. So she's like, and I showed her in a verse somewhere else in the Bible, and I said, Read this. I was like, I just pointed at it, she read it, she's like, her eyes got big. So then later that night when we came home, we talked about it, and she was like, how I understand what you were saying, because that was bad theology.
SPEAKER_03But anyway, um Blue, you the the the the humility you have, I think that scripture says more than once that God resists the proud, he gives grace to the humble. And years ago, I think it's an old Jewish idiom that um wisdom is measured and questions asked. And I think as you ask questions and you know, put your nose on the book, I think I think that time is honored. I think that's when revelation comes. I think when when we hold our theology with a closed fist, I just don't think that revelations come. And I think that's why usually you see it with men, it's not until they hit a wall usually can they be open to hear something else. And pride is something that affects so many people. So it's um God resists the proud. I just don't think revelation's coming to to um to someone that pursues uh their faith as information together. I don't think there's there's really gonna be much revelation there.
SPEAKER_00And that's what I really like about you, Matt, because you ask questions and you've asked me questions about certain topics, and then your son gets all excited if he's standing there, he's like, hey, talk to me about that. And I was like, All right, this is what I and then Matt's just in deep thought, and you just talk to me, but you ask me questions, and I'll talk to you. And you know, you you you you're a deep thinker, and I appreciate that. So, um, and you live that that whole hum what you just said, that is you. And I I take the same approach. I'll ask you a question, and I'll be like, okay, all right. That theology has humbled me many times. Um so we're gonna let Tim open up in prayer and we're gonna get into some discussion on Galatians. And I hope uh I hope you get something out of this. This is pursuing the heart. God pursued me, and now I pursue him. And it's amazing when you pursue him, the the revelations that he will reveal to you through reading, praying, or even talking amongst people, what he can reveal to you. And that's all about pursuing him. Right, Tim?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's it. Jesus just uh we're gonna we're gonna talk about you. Um we have a spirit within us that resides and allow it to walk before us and us deny our flesh here, and just let the word be what it is and it's truth. Um, allow just us to um come together as brothers and talk about you, love on you, love one another, and um see you revealed in in these words right here, words that we may have read multiple times before, but it's it's amazing when you read scripture, when you get in the word, and you dive in, you quarry it, you find a little nugget you had on before. So I'm excited to see what that is tonight. Uh Lord, just give these listeners uh your peace, uh give them your joy, your love right now, so they can uh have their their hearts and minds settled and experience your stillness, Father. So we thank you for you, thank you for your son and your gift of grace. Heavenly name I pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_00So we've been going through the book of Re uh Galatians, not the other book I was about to say, but actually we've been going through the book of Galatians. And chapter one, um, Paul's addressing who he is, his testimony, and basically just throwing out his resume. And then he's laying out how he became a Christian, how he met Christ, and how he was an uh a pot got to be an apostle. And then it also talks about how he went on this missionary journey and came back and went before the council, and the council was asking questions about hey, you know, the Greeks are taking this in. How's that look like? What that looks like. That's old the old the uh Jerusalem Council, the apostles. And he tell he talks about that, and then um he also talks about a brother that came up and was very supportive of him and basically was like, Hey, this is um this person. I didn't ask for his his um his uh vote of confidence, but he basically was saying, Hey, this is who that is, and then he is telling the truth. And then he has like this uh him and Peter, Cephas, that's in chapter two, they have this little uh disagreement because he calls Peter out because the book is book of Galatians is in a lot of his books that he writes is he's going around, he's going behind stinking thinking, bad theology of where it they these people come in after the church has been established by Paul, and they try to do Jesus plus the law, and it's Jesus plus nothing, is what he's saying. And then he goes in this whole thing, he's addressing the Jewish people that might be in the congregation, talking about the difference between Abraham and the Mosaic law, and which is greater, and also the new covenant, and how the new covenant and the Abrahamic covenant are very similar, it's faith alone, and then he transitions into this whole chapter in chapter four that um we had with the the two sons and Luke, Luke's two sons, and I, and it was about the free woman and the bondwoman, and how the free woman he uses Sarah as that example, and then the bondwoman as Sarah, the slave, and and uses that that whole analogy there. And he even says it's very allegorical, is what the verse 24 of chapter 4 says. And he goes in this whole thing where he's talking about why would you want to be associated to the slave and not the free woman? We are under the free woman because we're under Christ. Christ set us free, and that's where 5-1 um it says, it was for freedom that Christ set us free. Therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. It's one of my favorite verses. Like it is Paul is trying to encourage the believer, you need to stand firm. What do you think about that, Matt? About that verse.
SPEAKER_03About freedom?
SPEAKER_00About the freedom that Christ has set you free.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Freedom. I think Paul deals with even this in in Romans 6 is freedom is oftentimes when you sp speak to people about their identity, they assume you're talking about license. And I think I tie it more to I say Romans 8, 2, for the law, the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. There's a principle, there's just a new way of living. And I wish Christianity was still called the way. I think it's become an ism, it's become a a religion. I just think that if it was the name Way, it just makes more sense. I know it sounds like uh uh what was the Star Wars show on uh what was it? You Yeah, it's the Mandalorian. Mandalorian, yeah. The uh but the the Way, I think is a better name and it's a it's I think it's it's more appropriate uh to what it should be.
SPEAKER_00And and Paul, we even talked about this last week, Luke and I. If you go back to listen to this last week's uh podcast, it isn't a license to sin because you want to do certain things out of love, not that you have to do certain things. Like I was raised in a Christian church, and it was you had to pray every morning. How how long of a quiet time did you have? Oh, you've only had a five-minute quiet time, might not have been good. Um, you need to ask for forgiveness every night. You need to what verse did you memorize this week, Matt? Um, how many people did you witness to? And those were things that the church has like, you have to do these things. No, I want to do those things, and I'm getting goosebumps talking about this is because I understand what Christ has done for me, and I want to have a relationship with Christ. I want to have a relationship through the Holy Spirit, through Christ, and I want to have a I just love the Father. I love all three. And the only way I'm gonna do that is I want to read the word to understand who he is, who they are. And I'm when I get in my car, I might listen to a Christian CD, Christian music because I want to. I want to go in here and have my own like little worship thing, right, Tim? I know you do. I want to pray, I want to talk to my father, I want to talk to Jesus, right? Right, Tim? Oh yeah. And it's out of the want to, not I have to, because why would you do that? Why would you let sin increase so grace might be abound? Is that what Paul says in Romans there, Matt?
SPEAKER_03You know, it we further down here, Romans uh 5 13 is it says uh do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh. He says that because you can't. But you're gonna reap what you sow. You absolutely have a free will, but just choose wisely. And I think that's wisdom is just to to choose the you know what Bob Warren used to call it choose the excellent over the good. Sometimes that's hard. Uh but just with discernment, you just you walk in that. If you screw it up, just get back to walking.
SPEAKER_00That's why I like verse six here in Galatians five, for it says, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Faith working through love. Like if I love my father, then I'm just I mean, it's just yeah, it's it's all about love, man, and it's really cool. Got anything to add here, Tim, before we start?
SPEAKER_01I think that I mean, uh they're concluding it, but the ones we're gonna talk about today really give an exclamation point to what Paul was opening up with in five and what he's gonna hit us home with in the back half of five. So I'm excited to talk through that.
SPEAKER_00Okay. You got anything before we start, Matt?
SPEAKER_03I just love. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he is. And um so verse 13 of Galatians five, this is where we we left off on 12, so we'll pick up on 13. So it says, For you were called, you were called to freedom, brethren. Only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. That's basically what we were just talking about. You have this freedom, and he's addressing the believer uh believers in the congregation by saying, brethren, and he's like, Brethren, don't use this freedom, don't turn it into the opportunity for the flesh. And that's what Matt was saying, where you just go out and you send, sin, sin, sin, and because you understand you're free in Christ, you could do that.
SPEAKER_03But add to that, that I think oftentimes what goes uncalled is the good that we have we flesh out on our own. And like you're talking earlier, just growing up in the the church that you were in. The you whenever I ask someone about the two trees in the garden, people always say it's the tree of the tree of knowledge and then also the tree of the garden. Of life. The tree of life is correct. But it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. People forget the good in that tree. That's where religion comes down. And you could be sitting in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil on a good branch. You're still in the wrong tree. And that's where religion takes you. And it takes you to, you know, the just trying to behave better. And I think that it really just diminishes this abundant life that Jesus talked about. And I just I don't see it much in the church. And you know, Paul talks about it in in um in Corinthians about when I'm weak is when I'm strong. That's how you tap into it. And I I just don't think many Christian men, especially, I'll pick on on um on our our sex here, that we always are trying to challenge each other. I I just I don't think you tap into the power source that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if I'm challenging you, you probably won't want to hang out with me that much.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Because you're not because you don't want to be challenged every time you're around a certain individual.
SPEAKER_03I always think of Luke, you're you know, your guest from last week. Luke, if you could have an accountability partner, having an ex-heavyweight boxer, someone that could physically threaten you with violence more than than you know a typical guy, is that what we're driving at? Like there, what's what are we doing? Like there's no that's life that you just you think you can behave because you know what I would do if that was the case with with Luke, I would just lie to him. I wouldn't, I'd never tell him the truth. And you're as opposed to just encouraging people to live, well, that's what everybody wants to do. And I think we we so often just make a law out of something good like reading scripture, you know? Yeah. And just walking. You don't have to, you get to. That's a paraphrase of I think Romans 6, 14. Like you're not under law, you're under grace. You don't have to, you get to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you get to. We call it participation. We we can participate in this relationship. It's not one way. Amen. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Yeah. It's a participation. I participate in that relationship. And the one way I participate in that is I want to talk to my father. I pray. I want to know him more. So I read the Bible, I pray, I read my Bible, and then I hang out with other believers, not necessarily people that I feel like I'm over them, but people that are going to challenge me. And that's where it's awesome because you grow as a person, because this is all about spiritual maturity, growing in your faith. And as I'm growing, and Matt, you're growing, and Tim's growing. Man, it's just so awesome to hang out and you just get. Am I right, Tim? Yeah. Tell me, tell me how that looks like to you, man.
SPEAKER_01This verse right here in Impact. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I Matt said something that is well, this next verse is gonna hit it hard too, but it's been something that's been on my on my heart, is about the good stuff. And I've been asking a lot of questions, and to people who come to me with questions, I just ask questions back and you know, kind of see where they're coming from to understand, okay, what you know, if you're seeking the Lord, what's he telling you? And how and it usually shows me, okay, you know, their their relationship. That's what this is about. It's about relationship. You know, you someone said about participation, and it's a two way, it's a two-way relationship here. He desires it here from hear from you. Yeah. And that's exactly what the father wants. He wants you, he wants you to know him. So the good piece, it's are you are you walking through this in your flesh still in the good? Are you doing the scripture memorization? Are you reading the reading the word? Are you going out and evangelize? Are you doing that all for in your own strength? Are you doing it all for your own glorification? Because I'm gonna, you know, it comes a point where I say, you know, that's still sin. That's still it's still called out as sin. And then you know outside of faith is sin.
SPEAKER_03It's a good one. Yeah, yeah, it's a good one, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, I did this, Matt. What are you talking about? Yeah, and I got I can I can quote scripture like the best of them, right, Matt. I'm good.
SPEAKER_01You would yeah, and then you point you and then they go, well, how do you know that? Well, first it says it in scripture and in Romans, but give me give me give me some examples. Let's walk back to the gospels and do exactly what was called out uh from the religious groups that were doing exactly this thing and make sure they were it was known that they were doing this these things, praying on the on the corners and um being able to regurgitate information. I mean, it's it's prideful, honestly. So there's there's a very clear distinction of someone who is in a relationship with the Lord and someone who just knows a lot about him, you know. I I think one of my favorite illustrations of that, and I'm gonna, you know, I was already doing this before we started, but giving Matt some kudos to his illustrations, the baseball card. Do you know the guy on the back or the the all the facts about the guy? Yeah, or do you know the person on the front, the picture? I want to know the picture. I want to know that. I want to get to know that Jesus right there, because that's where we just talked about all that good stuff. It's you allow him to do it and walk for you and do life for you, like it's nothing you're doing, and it's all him. That's true glory right there. And I don't have to answer for anything because you know what? I don't have you can announce my behavior, go ahead and do it. But like it's all him, anyways. He's the one who's gonna judge me, appreciate me, love all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, you brought up uh verse 14 that you wanted to go into. It says, For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this in the statement, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus quoted this, and it's also actually in the Old Testament. Um what were you wanting to talk about this? Where what what how'd this hit you, Tim?
SPEAKER_01This has been heavy in the past few years, and it I'm gonna call it out, and we we kind of talked about it a little bit many podcasts ago, but it's the separation that's had when we have we have the conflict, I'm right, you're wrong. We live in this society where if you're on one side of the fence, the other side are this other side of they're against you. Where like I can have an oppository thought, opinion, my own, and I'm not all the things that I'm associated that are associated with that thing. You know, I'm trying, I'm choosing my words because you know, but we did talk about it politically and like why this hits home because like man, I got so politically exhausted in the past few years. And yeah, sure, I have my thoughts, and like my wife and I talk about this a lot, and why hit I told her it's like I'm just kind of done with talking about it. I'm kind of done just you know, hearing about it, and because it there's nothing that good that comes from it. You're not gonna change someone's opinion or thought on Facebook, you're not gonna argue your way to change someone's mind. But why why not take that energy, the passion you have for that thing, and just put all that energy into Jesus, you know, let him do it. Because what do we say? God is love, he's gonna love that person through you if you allow him to do so.
SPEAKER_00And that's a good setup because you when chart when if you remember back in the fall when Charlie Kirk died, we did the whole podcast. You and I felt the spirit talking to both of us saying, You need to do a podcast. And the whole podcast was God is love, first John four. We went in the whole the all those verses through the verses, breaking it down because you love everyone. Matt and I might have a difference opinion. I have I like the Braves, he likes the Cubs, I do like going to Wrigley, but it's not worth losing fellowship over, right? Nothing, right? And you same thing, Tim. You and I have been friends for a long time. You might like something, and I don't, but hey, guess what? Uh I still love you, man. Yeah, yeah. So it's like um we might have a difference of opinion on things, but um, yeah, uh it's all about the focus there, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I mentioned this, these are quotes right from the the old testament. First off, was Leviticus 1918, and then Jesus said it also in Matthew 19, 19. So um those are those are the he Paul knows the Old Testament really well. Um and what's really crazy is he's quoting Jesus as well. He before that book was written, um, he but he didn't know he was quoting Jesus, but that was he was pulling it from the Old Testament there, Leviticus 19, 19. So we're getting about so 15 and 16 starts with two butts, butt and butt. All right. So I don't know if you see that in the scripture here. So continuing, he says, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, but if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. Are those two verses speaking about the same thing, you guys?
SPEAKER_01You want to take this one, Matt?
SPEAKER_03No, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Uh yeah, so the the butts there were a good call out um because it's showing, I guess you would say, binary opposition here. You can do this thing and and and I'll I'll use the word it uses at the end of 15. You can wal walk in the flesh, or you can walk in the spirit. You know, the the flesh is gonna be chaotic. It's you know, you you want to go and um you know have have quarrels and you want to argue argumentative, you want to do all the things that the flesh wants to do, it's going to devour you and it's going to consume your life, and it there's no there's no fruit in it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01You can walk by the spirit, yeah, the abundant life the Lord has for you.
SPEAKER_03But you're not dual-natured, but not dual-natured.
SPEAKER_01And the and we're gonna we could camp here for a second because I I don't know what version everyone has out there and they're reading out of, because my version has the word flesh, and some versions out there have sin nature, and I think that's a big call out. And I I want to take time to discuss it, we can go into it, but you know uh really good call out. We are not dual-natured. I know I do want to explain why, but I love to hear the answer to your ans your thoughts on the question you asked me.
SPEAKER_00The question as far as yeah, if these two talk about the same thing, sure. Uh, I believe they are. Um he basically 14 says, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, but if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. This reminds me, I have friends that have a hard position on something theology. And when we talk about that theology, they listen to me, I listen to them, but we're not consumed by that. They don't let that consume like, well, I can't be your friend because you have that position. That's the way I take about that's my take about that. I love my brother, I I love talking to my brother, and I love hearing why he believes that. And I still I'm I'm like, okay, I mean, I'm I don't know. All right, I am not there, right? So, but then it says, but I say walk by the spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. My flesh would say, I need to disown my brother because he has a totally different opinion than me. My flesh is saying to tell him and lash out at him, hey, you are a knucklehead because you believe that. How do you are you stupid? You believe that? But that's not what Paul's saying. Paul's saying, love your brother. Love your brother, don't devour him. Walk by, but walk by the spirit. So if I'm walking about the walking by the spirit, and we're about to get into that in just a minute, Paul illustrates what walking by the spirit looks like. The fruit of the spirit is this, and none of it is talking rude to someone, or like telling them they're an idiot, or saying, you know, I can't believe uh you believe in something stupid like that, or they might say, I can't believe Blue, you believe that. Are you kidding me? And I'll be like, I I this is my I read that, but it's not really clearly defined, right? And you can lose friendship over that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And there's no reason to lose friendship with another believer over something that's not clearly defined. Like this is pretty simple. Farley says you can read the scripture. There are some things you read, and it's pretty clear what it's saying. Am I right or wrong, Matt?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think having um I think in any friendship, any relationship, it's having an understanding of how someone else views an item, and it may be different, but the I think there's a we've all got friends who have different theologies, but that doesn't you can have appreciation for where someone else is coming from.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um but yeah, it doesn't mean you have to chuck the you have to chuck the whole friendship. Kind of like we were saying earlier. I just I think that there's certain theologies that people can get consumed with and they feel like it's a hill to die on. And I just just don't think a lot of them a lot of these are hills worth dying on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Tim, were you wanting to add anything to that?
SPEAKER_01Uh plenty. Go right ahead. Can we camp here for a second? Is that good? I don't I don't know. I'm fine. Do you, Matt, are you okay camping here? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to call something. Yeah, I mentioned it a second ago, and I I'm calling it out because I was talking to a family member about this recently, and their their thoughts about you know working towards working towards heaven and then just feeling like crap because they get so wrapped up and they're like, I'm just I'm horrible. I'm I'm a sinner and I always will be. I said, Oh, who told you that? That you're a sinner? The Bible. Like, show me. And again, that's why I said the version. He's like, Well, I I know that like you know, I was born of Adam, and then I had this seed in me and it just wants it just wants to sin. And I said, Okay, well, yeah, you're you're not wrong there, but where does it tell you that you are a sinner? Because you believe in the Lord, right? You you have a you had a point of repentance, you had a change in your heart, right? He's like, Yeah. Okay. You don't have two natures, you can't serve two masters. So there's a word in there called and it says sin nature, and I and I think it's NIV, I could be wrong. It's N IV. Is it?
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna call it out. You can sugarcoat it, it's NIV. Yeah, there might be other ones out there. But you know Is that okay, Matt? If I just call it out. Oh, yeah. If you're reading NIV, I would tell you to probably go buy something, a different interpretation. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01But speak to speak on that, you know, we when you have the point and you come to uh recognize the Lord uh as your savior, you in that moment, he takes out that old heart you had. And you he circumcises it. Where do we use it for? And he he takes it out and he puts in a brand new heart. So anytime that you you do fumble, you do mess up, you make a silly mistake, it doesn't mean he's taking that old heart, putting it back in and flip, flop, flip, flop, flop, flop. It's not that's not what's going on here. You have you have a new nature, like a new way about you, and we're gonna talk about what that looks like. Um but yeah, like that that sin nature piece there. I I'm just yeah, throw that throw that word out, please. Throw that whole thing out. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Like you were gonna, you're going to, it's gonna happen. You're gonna you're gonna walk in your flesh, you're gonna choose the other thing. Um, but it's not who you are, it's not who you are anymore at all. And I know I'm gonna leave some I'm gonna leave some uh low-hanging fruit out there for Matt to kind of pick up.
SPEAKER_03I mean, Blue called out the NIV. That that that translation of the word sarks that Paul used, which means flesh, that was flipped in some translations to sinful nature, I think has put more Christians in a ditch than any. And I I'd say uh Romans 7, uh that chapter has probably put more Christians in a ditch with a bad translation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you don't put new wine into old wineskins. Right. And Ezekiel talked in 36 about this new covenant. We're just in a better spot than they are, you know, and and you guys have heard me talk about this before too, about the idea of getting to heaven and waiting in line to see uh David or a Noah, and then get up to them, and they want to talk to you about what it was like to be in this sitting right here, what it was like to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. When Moses, like, I built a tabernacle in the desert, and the spirit would come down from the sky and meet me there, and Israelites would watch this all unfold, and we have that within us. Yeah, we're just in a better spot. We're privileged. And I think that much of my Christian life I lived as if I was under the law, even though I'd say that I wasn't under the law, I was under grace. I lived like I was under the law and thinking I had two natures. I'd admit this to you as well. I used to, you know, in times of confession, look up and be like, Well, you made me this way. You gave you made me a hybrid. Because I remember when I was a young man and I it just was clear I was just of the world. Yeah, I wasn't confused at all. I was like a pig in mud. And then when you if you believe that you have two natures, then you think, well, now I'm kind of torn between two worlds here. Well, come to understand your identity is just made a world of difference. That if you want the abundant life, if you want the fruit of the spirit that comes up later in this this chapter, walk by the spirit. That's it. But if you decide to walk by the flesh, the the deeds of the flesh, it's all it's in this chapter too.
SPEAKER_00I'll mention them again. Keith, Keith Tyner. Yeah, I was in his Bible study, and he and we were going through this uh chapter, and he said, When you wake up in the morning, are you in the spirit or in the flesh? Amen. You're in the spirit.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you're not in the flesh when you wake up, you're in the spirit. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior of your life, and he's indwelling you with the Holy Spirit, you are in the spirit just walking around doing nothing, right?
SPEAKER_01That's a state of a state of who you are, and it's it's a it's a progressive, like you were continually, constantly in that state. And that's important because you know Matt mentioned that the church, you know, the church and religion has put us under this thing where we think we fall out of it or fall out of grace. That's kind of the word and the phrase you'll hear. But you if you read and you can quarry the Bible and read it and focus on, okay, who has Christ told me who I am? Like you're gonna hear it, you know, a lot if you if if we're talking, you're redeemed, you're forgiven, you are made, you you are a saint, like you're made new. Like these are all things that he took care of and done, and it's finished. So you know, if it's if it's finished, it's done. You are these things. You know, he's given you this gift, he's not gonna take it back from you. He just he said, You can you can do all that stuff. You can do you can go out there and live in your flesh, and you're not gonna like it, it's gonna feel terrible. You're gonna come back and realize, uh, you know, it's not what I want. It's like a fish out of water, like the fish's environment is the water, and it's it surrounds it. So when it's out of it, a fish out of water, it struggles, it's painful, it doesn't feel good, it's chaotic. And just as we are, when we live our life and it's without Christ, it's painful, it hurts, it's chaotic, it just it destroys. You do life with Christ, with the Lord, restful, peaceful. You know, it's how do you how do you want to live? How do you want to walk walk today?
SPEAKER_03Tim, I'd add to that. There's not a creature on this planet that has two natures. Not one. Yeah. Somehow Christians think they do. But again, I think it just comes from bad theology and a bad translation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the next verse. It says 17. For the flesh sets its desires against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, for those who are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. So this goes back to the previous chapter, the bondwoman or the free woman, the slave, or the bul, you know, if you're under Sarah, you're under like the new he was saying you're under the new covenant. And if you're in the new covenant and you have the Holy Spirit that lives inside you, when you your spirit goes against what the flesh desires. As I so when I became a Christian, I did not know what this looked like. I was still dealing with my flesh. But as I grew up and and as I have grown up in my faith that I have learned I don't struggle with smoking no more. Not saying smoking's bad but I'm just saying I used to smoke packs of cigarettes a day. I don't anymore. That's something that I don't struggle with because that's something the spirit wants me to give up. It was something that grew me closer to God. It was that desire right so that's whatever that flesh is whatever it looks like it could be different things for different people goes against what the spirit is because the spirit is from the Holy Spirit because it's capital S right there goes against the spirit that you have indwelling in you. And it's I I mean as an immature believer I struggled with that but now I've grown in my faith I'm still not where Matt Tully is maybe but or I'm desiring to be like I want to be like more like Matt but I want to be like Jesus. More like Jesus that'd be a good one. But but am I so anyway I love Jesus in you Matt I love the Jesus in you. But um but as I have grown in my faith I don't struggle in my flesh as I did when I was an amateur Christian is what I'm trying to say. And that's what this thing is because it's the flesh can't stand the spirit and the spirit can't stand the flesh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah the spirit angers the flesh yeah for sure and not not and I don't not the other way around like no the you know when you're walking when you well let me go back and say this. We've said this walking in the spirit and then maybe you're like okay how do I do that? I wish I had like a very easy answer for that and I I don't and what I do know is of my life what it looked like for me it's know the father and and the hardest point of my life when when it seemingly what looked on my life when all this all the the stuff that I was focused on all the all the stuff was walking my flesh came crashing down upon me and the chaos finally collapsing to point of okay Lord I surrender. I give up I I can't do this. Like he spoke to me in a forest on my when I was crying out to him tears went down my face full surrender like how you would picture it as as as a man and I heard him audibly you want to love me know my father and that's what I look at knowing the spirit it's the relational um time you have the intimacy you have with prayer with reading the word with fellowship. Like that's that's what walking by the spirit is right here and you're gonna have words that go along with that but it's just letting letting him do life for you letting him walk before you but when you pursue his father when you seek him when you choose like I want to know him at a deeper intimate level I mean that's that to me that's what it looks like in my in my life.
SPEAKER_03You you both have said that tonight just about your own pursuit of um of God's heart. And I think it in most relationships there's work to be done on both sides. I think that in our relationship with Christ there's only one side of that relationship that needs work and that's ours. So that idea that you both have talked about is pursuing his heart yeah pursuing the heart yeah that's where that's really weird on our side good plug there Matt So Matt how long did it take you to understand what we're talking about tonight?
SPEAKER_00Identity? Just walking by the flesh spirit what what did that look like in your life? Did that come easy or did that was that something that I was I was at a religious wall.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I would say it wasn't a um uh it wasn't like a financial crisis or um you know relationship crisis or anything it was just a I just thought there's gotta be something more and uh I I I remember when um it was really I would say it was Jim Pinkston and Keith Tyner and I I remember when I came to understand that forgiveness was past tense this would have been December 31st 2004 I was having lunch with um Keith Tyner at CR Heroes over on 96th Street and he talked to me about the tenses of the verbs changing at the cross. And I told him at that time I said man I hope you're right I'm gonna go home check this out on my own. I hope you're right and I had a little tiny concordance and uh I just remember going and looking at that and just being shocked at how consistent scripture was and how inconsistent my theology was and I and then I thought that was it and I blew I could have stayed there. I absolutely I could have stayed at forgiveness because I thought that was it. That was and it's wonderful but there's more right and that was you know I I think um uh I think Keith gave me a copy of Lifetime Guaranteed by Bill Gillm which great book but I thought oh this book's just gonna continue to tell me that I'm forgiven I've already got it I just figured it out and I'm really excited about it. But there's more right it's I think it's first John talks about the babes and the faith know they're forgiven the young men of the faith know how to overcome the evil one the fathers in the faith know him who's been from the beginning. So I think that there is we pursue I think we can all get to a spot of rest and just breathing in and out with the fact that we're we're good in our faith. Would you call that like total surrender? Ah is that it's funny I think people have different they picture different things with with that or total submission I still feel like you're giving something up I think you know to Tim's point earlier your point that um you're in it. You wake up you're in it. It's understanding who you are so it's not submission if that's who you are you're just being true to yourself. And if you realize you don't have to you get to it's a totally different mindset. It's not a religious one it's a totally different mindset and it's uh I like I like the word privileged blue better than submission or surrender because it's uh it's boy it just it's just better. Yeah no and we are privileged I think and I do think that someday we'll have old old covenant friends when we get there and they're gonna want to know what it was like to have peace with God. Yeah and not have to offer up animal sacrifices. No you know just to to to be at rest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah you just spoke on on freedom right there we talked about that very early in this in this hour and we are called to freedom we are we are made to be free in Christ and yeah you mentioned like the the word you know the words you choose and you know everyone can choose whatever they whatever they want I like abide you like privileged whatever it is you have freedom to just live yeah and just hang out right just hang out with him and like it sounds so simple and so like what you know you someone say oh it's just like there's probably more to it there's not right it's just so simple but bad theology corrupts it and makes it more complicated Tim I think that uh men love to create these really obscure theologies so they can then be the sage on the stage.
SPEAKER_03Be the person with all the answers and if you've got questions I've got answers. And I I just think you know Paul talked about the simplicity of the gospel. I mean John Peter these guys are fishermen. These guys didn't have masters in divinity they're just fishermen. And they're they're telling us about how this thing works and how it functions I I think that the pride of man is spectacular of just really how corrupt it can be and and destructive and it's the simplicity of the gospel. Very simple. So Matt, you spoke earlier about going to confession so that's mainly a Catholic thing right so were that the the or was that just your prayer just in my own yeah okay of just um because you did you were a Catholic right yeah yeah I was no this is just as a uh as a young Christian guy just in confession I'd be like yeah God I'm sorry but it turned me into a hybrid here to kind of and I heard a Christian guy say this once at study blue you might have even been there um but he sat in study and and really think about this he said he was jealous of people that accepted Christ on their deathbed because of how they could just live their life without wrestling with anything and then have this moment of revelation at the end. But that's a guy who thinks he's dual natured he thinks he's just in this this this civil war and his on his inside's going on all the time and he just can't stand the struggle. Like he's never uh entered this concept of of rest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I do someone someone that would accept their accept Christ on their deathbed I like who I am now because I have a relationship with him and I know who he is and I know my father I know who Jesus is and I I think they missed out on the the joy of that relationship.
SPEAKER_03You you can pull terrible marketers of Christianity right I think that and I I came out of crew or campus crusade it was so much about getting out of you know hell into heaven and saying the sinner's prayer and it's it's like what do we have for people today and this chapter talks about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you know love joy peace patience kindness goodness gentleness faithfulness self-control that's what everybody on this planet wants and I think that we can get it as we as we walk and if you I think uh you get it you get it automatically when you have the spirit because the spirit uh is those things yeah so when the spirit indwells you and you have your like you said earlier your new identity your new identity rests in those things you don't have to pray for joy you already have joy hopefully I think there's a lot of unjoyful Christians out there a lot of I think or is it unhappiness the uh is joy and happiness almost the same no they're not the same I think happiness is the counterfeit to joy is it kind of like a feeling then yeah happiness temporary it's fleeting yeah yeah situational yeah just like I think lust is a counterfeit to love and I think all the fruit of the spirit has a counterfeit yeah yeah they do yeah but I think I don't know of a lot of joyful Christians you don't I don't not a lot as a percentage I think it's a small percentage my wife talks well my wife and I talk about this that like you go to church or wherever and you can look around there's not a lot of joyful people there's a lot people are struggling with different things or they're there because of a situation and they're hoping God helps that situation and that message of condemnation and shame it abounds and the church is out there from the pulpit.
SPEAKER_01We're not condemned right that's right now it's Romans 8 1 that's right there you go yeah there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus you know that that joyful thing you just mentioned you know that's a I used to live outside of joy purposefully in some ways I felt like I didn't deserve joy um and I mentioned the moment in my life in 22 where uh just fell in love with the Lord and really accepted him as the Lord of my life before he was just my savior and no there's I say that like that that's he's my savior. But the joyful thing you know joyful Christians and if my wife was here she might you know roll her eyes because the amount of time to talk about joy in her home it probably frustrates her because there's moments where she's just frustrated and not going through joy. And I said yeah I I choose I choose joy over this and it's about the mindset. And I know I'm I'm in sales and I I lead a team and I'm blessed to to be able to do so. And I tell her like it's all about the mindset and how you choose to look at every situation and I choose joy. So however that looks in that situation I'm gonna choose the joy in this we could be you know working food sales and we could not deliver all the groceries to a customer. It's okay where's the where's the joy in this how do we how do we how do we focus in this how do we we have to go through this no matter what so let's just choose joy through this and uh man I I tell you what living living through this and having it's the posture of joy not so you know we pray for oh and I think the most common was Lord please give me patience please give me patience you you're you already got it it's all in but and enveloped in the spirit it's one fruit he already got it so just like you you see in Job all the stuff he went through was the posture he had until you know he doesn't know he didn't know if he's gonna get restored at the end of this but his posture remained through all that his you know he wasn't living this you know 21st century American world I can't have this ROI in 30 days or 90 days. No like it took years for that and he had some people closest to him coming down on him to like change his mind and his posture remained so any of this fruit of the spirit it's about the posture you have when you are enjoying that fruit is being enjoyed.
SPEAKER_03Oh and it's thanks for saying fruit not fruit yeah fruit fruit we used to have a guy Bible study used to say he was not it's for others to be enjoyed around you yeah I think that happens so what did that guy say that whenever someone would use the fruits of the spirit he would you know throw up throw a yellow flag on the field that's because you can't isolate them no it's one it's a collective they probably all flow out of out of love but it's fruit of the spirits not fruits.
SPEAKER_00So Matt in close we're about to close if there's one thing that you can that a listener is listening tonight that you can encourage or tell them one thing that's very important to you what that what would be that one thing I am I'm encouraged when when when Jesus came that they'd have life and have it abundantly I would say it's it's out there and if if you haven't tasted that uh chase it and challenge him because I d I I I I now understand what Jesus was talking about.
SPEAKER_03And I think that theology in the world is very dis it's very distracting. But Jesus had nothing to gain by saying that I came that they'd have life and have it abundantly and I just I I think that just too few Christians ever taste that so I would say pursue that keep questioning and I think God will honor the time that you uh put into that relationship that you pursue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah find somebody that you can hang out with that is a little bit further ahead in their spiritual walk and like hang out with them. Someone that you can look up to in their faith not saying you put them on their pedestal or anything I can tell you that that's what I did with Matt he didn't know that but that's what I was doing when I would go to Bible study when I would hang out whatever that looked like you know with you I was absorbing what you were teaching I was absorbing your thoughts and I was absorbing your position on certain things right and it was just like okay I'm taking this in and I go home and read it for my own and then be like oh yeah kind of like you said right same thing with Keith when I'd hang out with Keith at his Bible study do it I did the same thing.
SPEAKER_01I'd listen to Keith and I'd be like oh well okay I've never thought about it that way and I go home and read it and it's right there right sometimes it's clear as day like I was listening to Farley the other day he's like sometimes it's just clear as day that you don't have to change the words and you don't have to know the the Greek and all that to break it down is pretty clear right so thanks Matt I like that so um anything you got to say Tim before we close no I I always appreciate uh just hearing uh mothers the viewpoint this word but the Lord's saying to them and and I've been privileged to hear a lot from Matt through various you know church or banquet or where else and you know I could tell that he loves the Lord uh with everything he has the Lord loves him uh because I can see the Jesus in him when he speaks yeah likes him uh but yeah no I I I appreciate him sharing and I and I know that he's an encouragement I'm encouraged by him thank you um so last week we talked about uh Luke's son Isaiah I just want to catch everybody up he won his fight last Thursday he fights in the championship fight and it happens to be the last fight of the night this coming Thursday at the Tyndall Armory if he wins that he is goes to WrestleMania right he's no he is the golden glove champion of Indiana and then he'll represent Indiana and his class in Oklahoma for the nationals last year last year he represented Indiana he won two fights and lost to the guy that actually won the whole division oh so in the way he explained it in Oklahoma you fight one day you fight the next day if you win you fight the next day and then the next oh wow so anyway three rounds yeah three rounds fight with headgear if you last around I guess yeah but uh just think about uh Luke's son Isaiah um this fry this Thursday night at the Tyndall Armory downtown Indianapolis uh it's a flyweight division no he's in he's in a novelist uh division which means his weight class is big yeah boys the corner boys like uh they have like flyway ban they got 135 got this fight then the next 145 and then 155 and then when Isaiah fights it's like this is the novelist division so the one dude could weigh 240 and the other guy could weigh 280.
SPEAKER_00So anyway but uh um just wanted everybody to know but hey this is pursuing the heart uh God pursued me now I pursue him and we appreciate you listening tonight uh we do have an email that some that no one really knows about we haven't received any fan mail Tim it's pursuing the heart at gmail.com so feel free if you want to send an email of encouragement or just say hey I don't really like the podcast because of whatever it's okay we got thick skin um but uh we do have lots of listeners across the world and we're really happy about that because Tim and I talk it's like throwing a pebble in the big lake so um what's our tagline? Keep your eyes on Jesus K Y E O J. Did you know that Matt K Y E O J Keep your eyes on Jesus and I hope you guys come back next week. Thank you Matt for joining us tonight and uh we really appreciate you thank you brothers all right