Steven Leibel on Trial Law, Personal Injury & Being Relentless (Ep. 6)

What does it really take to be a successful trial lawyer?

On Episode 6 of the AICA Podcast, Steven Leibel shares stories from more than 40 years in practice, from life-changing personal injury cases and medical malpractice litigation to his time as a municipal court judge.

Steven talks about why great trial lawyers have to be willing to go the distance, the importance of mentorship, preparing every case as if it will reach a jury, and the philosophy his firm lives by: “Embrace confrontation.”

Plus, he shares some unforgettable courtroom stories, his favorite case, why he describes himself as “relentless,” and a few lighter moments in our lightning round.

🔗 Learn more about AICA: www.aica.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

From accident to recovery, knowledge matters. This is the AICA podcast, bringing attorneys, specialists, and experts together. At AICA, we got your back.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Welcome back to the ICA podcast. I am here with Stephen Libell. Thank you so much for joining me this morning. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Great. And thank you very much for inviting me to be part of this podcast. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Of course. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself? Where'd you grow up? What are you like outside of the courtroom? Give me the tea.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Well, I'm originally from New York City, and then I came to Emory to go to law school. And I started my career actually doing employment type of cases. Because that's what I thought I really wanted to do. And I found that I really did want to do it. I found and I started getting, as I started my own practice, I started getting into personal injury work. And I found it to be fascinating. I found labor law to be basically I would call domestic relations in the workplace.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

With lots and lots of drama. And if you love drama and you love stuff like that, I recommend you be a labor lawyer.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

And the lawyers hate each other. They absolutely cannot stand one another. It's so they're diametrically opposed to one another. Whereas uh in personal injury law, it's even though it's personal, I find that the bar on both sides is more collegial. Not all the time. There will be times that you have the right lawyer and the wrong defendant's lawyer. But that does happen too. But in some really, personal injury is very personal as to a person who gets injured, and you really do care about the people that you represent. So the T on this is that as I started working uh in the field and being in my own practice, I started gravitating more and more to personal injury because I really felt I can make a difference for individuals. I can look outside the box on how I can maximize damages and recovery for people, I can change my focus. So over years of time, I was able to change my focus from, let's just say, an auto accident to more premises liability to more of medical malpractices, which we're doing right now. And that I found was very, very uh satisfying in and being able to do that. So coming from New York to Georgia and starting my own practice, and I've been in practice now for on my own for about 40 years. I've been very, very satisfied that I'm doing the right thing, that I've moved away from employment law.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Well, that's a good thing. You still like the drama, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Once in a while. Once in a while.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

You gotta keep things interesting.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

You have to do that. Absolutely. Otherwise it gets boring.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah. So why did you become an attorney?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I've always wanted to be a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Uh I mean, as soon as I woke up, basically when I grew up, I knew this is what I was gonna do. I just love the field of law. I love the professionalism, I love the I love the drama as well, but I also love the varied cases. And you're using your brain in different ways. And so when you figure out puzzles and you do things like that, it's a very rewarding profession. And I feel like a lot of people get into it for the wrong reasons and they become miserable. But I really like it. And I'm I'm a gambler and I'm a rock and roll cowboy, and I do those things as well because you have to be in personal injury. And you and you know it's it's expensive at times. The bigger cases cost a lot of money. You need to be able to fund them. Unfortunately, I've been able to fund my cases after so many years. And it's and there are challenges, and I mean it I can go on, but I really like being a lawyer, and I also like the constitutional law aspects of being a lawyer. I've done some constitutional law as well. Okay. Uh I did a lot of 1981, 1983 cases in the past. I in the past, I've also, when I was doing more of the you know, white knight stuff, I uh challenged the moment of quiet reflection in Georgia. I represented people against school districts for constitutional issues of First Amendment. I've done a lot of a lot of constitutional law.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, I did a lot of constitutional law. And it's interesting. Those are the those are the challenges of being an attorney, are to get those cases before the Eleventh Circuit and the Supreme Court and things of that nature. I've been to the Eleventh Circuit a number of times.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Really?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I've never been to the Supreme Court. And I've been to the Georgia uh Supreme Court a number of times, but not the U.S. Supreme Court. I don't think that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

You don't you don't think you're gonna make it?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Um yeah, I I don't think I'm gonna hit that time. But Eleventh Circuit, I've just been there. We just did one last year.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And we did okay. We had a case reversed and we're ultimately able to resolve it then. It was a premises case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Oh, interesting. Uh before we were talking, you said that you've also been a judge as well. I'm very curious about that.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Well, I was uh I was a municipal court judge. I dealt with people's problems from that perspective. And and my favorite my favorite story about being a municipal court judge is you take I call it minor criminal cases. So I had a young man come before me when I was a judge, and he says to me, I I said, Well, how do you plead? He says, I plead guilty. I said, Okay. So what are we pleading guilty to? Indecent exposure. I said, Let me take a look at the file. The young guy, like 21, 22. I said to him, I don't think you want to plead guilty to indecent exposure. So I took a look at the municipal handbook with the code, and I said, Well, can we amend this to this to the prosecutor? And the prosecutor said yes. It turns out he had gone to a party and everybody was drinking, and he tried to go into a back bedroom which was occupied by a guy and his girlfriend, and he couldn't go to the bathroom. So he goes out and pees off of a railing in front of a police officer. So I said to him, so I get the municipal handbook and we amend the charge to littering, who shall now not spill waste of any kind on a street private or public. And so we had him plead guilty to the $300 fine for littering. And the reason we did that also is that if he ever gets goes for a job and he's asked for his criminal background, have you ever been convicted of anything? He says, Yeah, indecent exposure. I said to him, You'll never get a job.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

But littering is not so bad.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

So anyway, I said, next time, I asked him, why didn't you do it in the sink? He says there were dishes in the sink. I said, next time, take out the dishes.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Hey, what a nice young man for not wanting to use the bathroom on the dishes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

What can I say?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

We gotta I mean he was only 21.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

I love it. I thought it was pretty interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

All right. So I'm curious, what is one of your maybe favorite personal entry cases that you've worked on?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Actually, I do have a favorite one. Okay. And my favorite case was how I can change somebody's life for the better. I had a a a woman who was involved in an accident, young woman. She had been, she basically was just graduated college and was involved in a wreck with a with a company van. So the company van hits her and she had an ankle injury and nobody thought much of it. She went to a chiropractor, she was speaking to the chiropractor, and the chiropractor said, you know, I don't I think there's a problem here. I think you have RSD, reflex sympathetic dystrophy, which now is called CRPS, which is complex regional pain syndrome, sends her to a doctor, and she's not doing well. And she starts having worse and worse symptoms that are starting to spread. Ultimately, she cannot use the bathroom. She she can't she can't urinate and she can't do it. And she starts cathing, self-cathing. And I had an expert witness in the case that I had spoken with about how she has to deal with this and how she could get a more normal life and what can we do. Well, we settled the case and we had a deposition of this doctor on a day later in the week. So I say to him, to the doctor, we reserved you for a whole day. Can you do the procedure on my client? He says, Yeah, I can do it. So we had her fly to Illinois on that day, and he implanted a spinal cord stimulator in her, and she calls me up crying, saying, I can pee. And I said, That is so great.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

And we were able to help her and get her the right medical care and use the expert witness not only for the purpose of litigation, but the purpose of trying to help her.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

And that really was my favorite case. We got a very decent settlement for her, but we really wasn't like we didn't care about her. We cared about her a lot. And so we wanted to utilize that expertise to make her life better. And now she's living a normal life, has children, has been married, and is a what's still a wonderful person. And I think that we really made a difference for her. And it was great. I mean, I never it was like she was crying and calling speaking to me on the phone. It was just so gratifying.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

That's the sort of thing that it makes it a favorite case. Do you still have a few years? Do you still have a couple of things? Christmas cards and stuff? Yeah, Christmas cards and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Oh, that's are you like that with a lot of your clients?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Some, you know, it's not like everybody. You know, you there are certain ones that are very special and significant cases.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

I mean, we handle smaller cases, but the significant cases, the people who you've really made a difference for, a lot of times they want to keep in touch as well. That was really my favorite case.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Okay. What are your normal cases like? Are they mostly MBAs? I said you know I know you said you did a little bit of med mal as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Well, we do most we actually now we do we don't do as many automobile cases as we used to.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

We do some premises. But my focus over the recent years has been primarily in medical malpractice at this point.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

We've done cases involving and resolved cases involving the death of a child in delivery. Uh we just had a bad stroke case that we just did against the emergency department. We've just done a lot of different types of cases that we felt were important to, you know, to help people. We are trying to be more clever than maybe some others on the type of cases and the type of causes of action that we can bring. Those are the type of cases that I really like to work on. They're complicated, they're interesting, they're very high value. You can't take any medical malpractice case. It costs several hundred thousand to prosecute a case like that. I mean, that's the sort of cases that we like to do, but we like significant cases when people need our help and we can get them the maximum recovery possible.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So are you doing mostly like commercial vehicles when you're doing an MVA?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Or is it all over the place? You don't know. I mean, you don't know what type of policies people have. You don't know the defendant's or I mean I had one with a a dram shop act case involving a young woman who suffered a a minor TBI. We resolved that case. Those are the things that you look for the various defendants. Is it dram shop act? Is it negligent entrustment? Is it commercial training? Is it whatever? I had another case that was pretty significant, which we resolved after discovery, which involved a company was transporting concrete, and the guy who hit my client absolutely 100% had no training, was not qualified to drive the vehicle. Those are the sorts of cases that you have to dig into and find out. So it's a puzzle that you have to look at and see what's going on. That's what we like. We don't love puzzles. I love a puzzle. I'd rather have an easy puzzle, but you know, sometimes you have to be more proactive in finding the pieces of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Absolutely. So how many of your cases or percentage-wise would you say go to actual trial?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

You know, they're not as many. I mean, there's a lot of mediation these days. Clients will make a decision as to whether or not they want to wait for the money or they want to take the money at this point. But we just, you know, we're trying cases. I mean, we're not afraid. People know that we'll try a case. And you know what you find is you don't try the easy cases. You never try the easy cases. You always try the more difficult cases. I have two coming up in February. They're definitely going to go. There are just different types of cases. If I if if one case doesn't knock out the other case, then we'll probably go in June or July of the following year. But they're significant cases, so people are fighting. You get your experts. You don't be afraid to buy the best experts. And what I mean by buy, that means always find who the best experts are as best as possible, so that you have a credible case.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And you've got to spend the money to do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Because I find that without the experts, you can't win.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Right. What are you like in the courtroom? Are you like a shark in the courtroom?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Are you a I'm a nice, I'm a very nice man.

unknown 12:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I mean, I really am. I don't I don't try to be a bully. I'm not trying to impress anyone. I feel comfortable in the courtroom. I like what I do. I have no problem in it. I just call the courtroom life interruptus.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Okay. What that really means is that when you're in the courtroom, that's all you do. You can't do anything else. Don't even think you can do any other business. Don't think you can juggle anything. It's really a focused and a and a lot of hours. Right. Because not only are you doing it in the courtroom, you're doing it after you get out of the courtroom, and you're continually working during that period of time. So you're in the you're in the courtroom, you have to have other people handle things. You're focused on what you have to do, and you have to do it. Whether it's talking to a witness, whether it's developing strategy, whether it's working on your clothes, whether it's working on motions. All those things are things that you have to do in a courtroom.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Okay. Was that would that be your advice to maybe a young attorney? Just stay focused?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Well, I think any young attorney needs to be mentored as well on how to conduct yourself in the courtroom, how to be comfortable in the courtroom, how to look at the case and how to develop the case in the courtroom. And and really that's what it's about. And what we do as lawyers is that we're producing basically a play for the jury. And that's what we do. So you have to focus on before you even get into trial, you have to get your strategy. And you really should do that while you're taking depositions. So in developing your case, you have to look at what you're going to say to a jury, even if you never get there.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

So be prepared to go. Always be prepared to go. Never think you're going to settle. Because if you think you're going to settle, then you can't do a good job in the courtroom.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

But if you go to if you go to mediation, be prepared to tell them you're not going to settle it.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I've done it. I don't have a problem in telling people, thank you very much. I've enjoyed lunch. I mean, it's true though. I love a free lunch. I mean, it's not free, let me tell you. It's thousands of dollars. I tell my clients, I said you might as well eat as much as you like, because this has cost him a fortune. Bring it all out. I'll take the I'll have two sandwiches instead of one. Thank you very much. You know? A diet coke. Yeah, I'll have two of those.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Oh, yeah. I want one to go.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I want two to go. But as much as I'm paying you now, I want five to go. I'm gonna have a luncheon at my office, you know? But it but you and you know what I'm saying is that you can't go into a mediation unless you're prepared to go to trial.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Okay. Good advice. I like that. You mentioned a mentor. Did you have one?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I did. I started my career with the federal government and I had two mentors at the federal government, both who are no longer with us, who were very instrumental in my becoming a better lawyer. I have tried to mentor people as well. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't. I'm a better mentor now that I'm older than when I was younger and I didn't know as much. Right. And I'm more patient now than I was in the past. I mean, I really was not the same person. But as I've gotten older, I recognize the value of not being so overly excited as I had been in the past. I think that being more measured, understanding what people do and how they do it, working against the other side in a way that you can live with yourself, that's all part and parcel of a philosophy of how to do combat. Because really what we are is we're warriors, we're war fighters in the courtroom. If we call ourselves trial lawyers, then we actually have to go to trial. Okay? We do that. I mean, that's why you're a trial lawyer. Right. Not because you're gonna run to a mediation and cry. You're gonna say, I can do this for my client. You make a decision as to whether you're gonna go or not. I had a case just recently. I went to mediation, I told my clients, eat everything you can because we're gonna be out of here by one o'clock. Okay? Okay. But we settled it. I was shocked.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Really?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I really, I was absolutely shocked. I had no idea that we were gonna settle the case. But we settled it. It was a decision they had to make and they made it. But I was prepared to go to trial. We had motions and everything else. Fine. I don't have a problem settling for a reasonable amount of money. Right. But if you don't want to settle with me for a reasonable amount of money, I don't have a problem going to trial. It's okay. And when you go to trial, someone wins and someone loses. It's just like a war. It's a substitution for people killing one another. And I had a case like that. So I had a case where uh I'm up in the mountains, two guys are going up and down the mountain for 30 years, talking about a land dispute. This is my property, no, this is your property. So one guy finally had enough and shot and killed the other guy. No insurance at all. Oh no. Well, that's okay. I went ahead and sued him anyway, and was able to resolve it with blood money by getting land that was going to be contested. In other words, he didn't die for nothing. He died for the land that he said was his.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Mm-hmm. Yellowstone.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Oh, you have no idea of how many cases I've done that are very interesting. I did the Erwin Brown civil case where the sheriff elect was murdered by the sheriff. So I did that case. So I've done a lot of different types of cases.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah. Wow. You have so many stories. I feel like I could sit here with you for hours.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Come on. We can come to Delatica. I would love to. We'll have lunch together and we'll talk about stories. But what do we do as lawyers? We tell stories to juries. You know, we tell people hopefully the truth. We see what the jury will do. Sometimes we're successful and sometimes we're not.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

You know, I've always wondered what well, first and foremost, I've never been picked for a jury. I want jury duty so bad. Nobody will send me a little flyer in the mail saying, you've been picked, but I want to do it. Is there a certain type of person you're looking for to be on your jury?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

I can't say. I'll tell you why.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Everybody is different. And sometimes you in voidir, depending upon if you're in federal court, the voidier is more limited. In state court, it's much better. Okay. So I've had cases in in state court, I do hours of voidir. I talk to people, I want to see how they are, talk to them, etc. And then a jury comes and we do okay. Because I feel like the voidir is a very important part of being in trial. You have to really suss out who's going to be biased against your client, who's going to be really open-minded, who's going to give more money, who's going to do whatever. Every jury is different. Every jurisdiction is different. Every venue is different. So if I'm in Atlanta, I'm in an urban area. It's different than when I'm in Delanaga, which is a rural area. It's different if I'm in federal court in Atlanta versus being in federal court in Gainesville or elsewhere. I've tried cases elsewhere as well. And when you see all those things, there's also differences in if you're out of state, they have different laws than we do and different ways in which to award damages and caps and all the rest of it. And so everything is different. And so it's hard to say what is my juror. My juror is the one who's going to give me as much money as I ask for. But you know, obviously, you know, you're not going to say to that person, Are you going to give me as much money as I ask for? I mean, that's a great, you know what? That's a great question. I should ask that question.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

You should start asking that. Yeah, I'm going to start asking that question. You're like, I was on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Who's going to raise their hand? I say, first of all, who's going to raise their hand and give me as much money as I ask for? That's the first question.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Pick me.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, pick me. Right. By the way, you'll be gone. The uh other side will take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Too eager.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Oh, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Um, okay, great. So I want to do the lightning round really quickly. Um, is there anything else that you want to tell me or tell us? Anything interesting, anything crazy?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

No, I mean what what I want is that I think that the difference also between what we do and what other people do, because we're more of a boutique shop. We have three lawyers, one who's a physician lawyer, myself, another lawyer who clerked for a federal judge in the past, is that if you're looking for, you know, more personalized service, then we're the place to go. And if you're looking for, you know, being put off to somebody in a place where there are hundreds of paralegals, etc., then go there. Right. But and so I I would what I want is is I want great clients. I want clients who are understanding of the process, who are not afraid to ask questions, and who want, you know, more personalized lawyering. And that's what I think we deliver. So that's my pitch for my practice, you know, Lybell law. And it looks like libel, by the way, which is the funniest thing because every time I go to court, they say, Mr. Libel. And I said, Well, I I I pronounce it Lybell. That's good, Mr. Libel. We'll continue on. See what I mean? So it's fine. I said, you know, it's a hang of a name for a lawyer. I mean, it was obviously it was something that was meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

I was just about to say that. It was absolutely meant to be for you to become a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

I couldn't even, absolutely couldn't even believe it. So here we are.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

That's awesome. That's good. All right, quick lightning round for you. Okay. Coffee or tea?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I don't like tea, so I guess I'm and I drink too much coffee. It is. Uh early bird or night owl? Probably early bird, because I get up in the morning and I exercise.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Oh, good for you.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

I find that's very important. It gives your endorphins a boost and it Helps you focus for the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah. I should start doing that. Trial or negotiation?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

You can't negotiate without, as I said, without being willing to go to trial.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

I knew you I knew something like that was gonna pop up.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

You had no choice. I have no choice but to say that.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Favorite vacation destination.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Well, I can tell you right now that my favorite place so far has been visiting Tuscany, Italy. It is the food bursts with flavor. The it's a beautiful countryside. It's the wine is great. The people are nice. Speaking my language. I wish I spoke Italian, I gotta tell you. It's a lovely place to go. I'd like to go back.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Okay. Yeah. I it's definitely on my bucket list. I've only popped over the border to Italy for like a couple hours when I was in the south of France, but I haven't actually got to go to Italy.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Well, you you'll make it your business to do it. You have to go. It's worth that.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Okay. I'll do it just for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Thank you. And then call me and ask me where you can send the pictures. I'll let you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Okay. One word your team would use to describe you.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Relentless.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Steven, you're so funny. That is what my friends and family would probably describe me as as well.

unknown 23:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yep. I I tell people that we're sort of like the the rat terrier that once it sinks its teeth in your rear end, it never lets go.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

That's us.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Relentless.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Favorite motivational quote.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

I don't think I have one. I mean, I really don't. We have over our conference room, we have a sign that says embrace confrontation.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Ooh, I like that. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

I think that that is that may not be a motivational quote, but it's my quote, and we live by that.

unknown 23:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

The next question I'm going to change because it says favorite Atlanta restaurant. But because I know you're in Delanaga, I'm checking out.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Oh no, we go to Atlanta. We do go to Atlanta.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Well, I was gonna ask you what your favorite winery is in Delonega.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Well, you should say that. Uh there were two.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Okay, one is Wolf Mountain.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

I love Wolf Mountain.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

It's great. The wine is great. The people are wonderful. And the other one is Montaluche. Because they have a wonderful restaurant and a trotteria that's fantastic. The views and the views are beautiful. Both places are wonderful. I recommend to your listeners and viewers to come up to Delanaga and enjoy the wine. It's really quite nice.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

I'm about to get in my car and come up there and wine with you.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

You should.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Okay. Biggest pet peeve in the courtroom.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

In federal court, they do not let you go outside of that podium. So in federal court, you can't go behind the jury box to speak to the jurors. Okay?

SPEAKER_04 24:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I hate that. In state court, you can go anywhere you want, but in federal court you can't. Okay. And I said to the judge the other day, I said, Judge, do you let me go a little bit outside of the of the uh podium? He says, Not really. I said, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I like to move, you know? You gotta have to do that. No, I like to I like to move.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

No, no, but I like I like to move and work to move. I want to talk to the jurors. Yes. And it's more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Okay. Best piece of advice you've ever received.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Go to law school in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Oh, explain.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

I had a choice to go to various schools. And when I came to it to do that, I had been working for a law firm in New York. And the two lawyers that I had spoken with who I respected and who were at that point probably a little bit younger than I am, said to me, Go to Atlanta. It would be a good place for you to practice law. Because I didn't want to do it in New York. I didn't want to live in New York. And I decided that I wanted to live elsewhere, and I was advised to go to law school in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

That was the best piece of advice I ever received. And that's why I went to Emory, and that's why I even graduated law school, believe it or not, and became a member of the bar, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna add one more because I must know. Are you a cat person or a dog person?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

I'm neither. I don't have either.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

No animals?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

No animals. We don't have animals. We have deer.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

We have turkeys.

unknown 26:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Right? We have fish. We have lots of different types of birds, hummingbirds and all of those, those kinds, but we don't have any animals. So I have now taken a neutral stance on which is better, uh a cat or a dog.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Okay, neutral. I'll accept it.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Because I don't have any, I can certainly say that's true.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Okay. Well, I appreciate you so much for coming on with me today and chatting with me. I am definitely going to take you up on coming to Delonaga and telling some stories and maybe drinking some wine. Maybe we can set up.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Well, it's you should, because you now have no choice. You've made it commitment. It's recorded and you made the commitment. So you have the choice.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

I'll just have to tell my boss, hey, I gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Steven You gotta go. Stephen Widow. Steve Idell said you need to come.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

That'd be great.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

That's it for today's episode of the AICA podcast. We'll be back soon with more insights. Until then, we got your back.