Bible Mastery - Ephesians 4:12-13

Thanks for listening to the Bible Mastery Podcast, brought to you by Teleios. In this episode, William and Jeanette Stewart will cover Ephesians 4:12-13.

The Bible Mastery Podcast brings you verse-by-verse teaching that’s clear, grounded, and life-changing. We take the Bible at its word—interpreting it in a normal, literal way—so you can uncover its deep truths about salvation, spiritual well-being, and daily living. Our goal is simple: to help you understand Scripture and equip you with the tools to interpret it confidently, without getting lost in noise or speculation.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, and welcome to the Bible Mastery Podcast, sponsored by Telehost and hosted by co-founders Bill and Jeanette Stewart. Here, we give you verse-by-verse teaching from the truth of scripture that's clear, grounded, and life-changing. Our goal is to help you understand the Bible and equip you with tools to interpret it yourself confidently and correctly. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Hello, I'm William Stewart, co-founder of Teleos here with my wife Jeanette, also a co-founder.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Hello, everybody. We're excited to be with you again today.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yes, and thank you for joining us. We are in Ephesians chapter four. And of course, to set everything in context, and there is a lot of context in this section. Um remember, chapter four starts the lifestyle section of Ephesians. So it starts, and it's a basis. Paul's starting with a sort of an introduction to our Christian life, a basis for our Christian life. And the first thing he mentions is our unity around the important doctrines and love. And all this verse seven is based on salvation. And from that, then we begin to discuss the church itself. And we're we talked about the structure in chapter two, the knowledge in chapter three. This is the beginning of the church. We talked about how in verse 11. Last time, God gave some on a temporary basis, regarding the intense of the verb, uh, as apostles and prophets, and some other, I guess, really talents that would help supercharge the church early. And uh, we mentioned too that this is controversial, and Jeanette and I hold a minority opinion. Most people would hold the opinion that this is a gift list of special package talents from God to uh minister to the current church. We don't think this is the case because of the context. Uh the word gift and verse seven is separated by a discussion of salvation and in uh the verses eight to ten, and the use of the word giftoma is typically in the epistles related to salvation, and uh is matching uh well with salvation with eight to ten. There's another option which we'll discuss as well. That sets context. Do you have anything to add to this?

SPEAKER_03 2:56

No, but I I appreciate again, you know, we always emphasize context. But Bill, as you said, this chapter is so important because Paul does start with unity. And if we're not united around the essential doctrines, there can be no unity. You know, if you're not a believer, then there you can't be having true unity, and then that love really overcomes all of you know, we not the essential doctrines, we have to agree on those, but sometimes there are small things that are not listed in those essentials, and then you know, you just agree to disagree, and you know, we should really want the best as God wants our best when he says he loves us. That's what we should be doing for other believers in the church. So great emphasis on that. And and as we proceed today, I think we're gonna see a little bit more about that as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Great, thank you. And that's a good emphasis, uh, Jeanette. I think back to context just for a second. Realizing we hold a minority view, we we don't want to tell you what to believe. So we urge you to look at this passage yourself and also decide for yourself. That let's go to verse 12. And Jeanette, please begin.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Oh, I would love to. So this verse says, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. So again, those little conjunctions or prepositions, sorry, at the beginning of the word, so important. And this one is for, so pros. So basically it's saying, um, this is completing the thought about why those um roles were given. And now he's telling us this is why. So he says, for the perfecting of the saints. So this is interesting. Uh, as we remember, this whole book is written to saints, which means those set apart by God, the sanctified, um holy ones, another way to say it. So you are Christians, just Christians, right? They're believers. Yeah. We need to understand it to be believers, exactly right. So he's saying here that the saints need to be perfected. Well, what does that mean? God sees us as uh set apart and holy already. And so there it's very important what this word means. And perfecting is actually the word cataracto kataritismo. I'm not very good in the Greek pronunciation. Um, but it it really means the idea of equipping.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And I actually words I'm glad you were saying that word and not me.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Thank you. I'm sure you would have done it much better, however.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Um, you know, really you can say it any way you want because all those ancient Greeks are dead. So we don't really know how they said it, despite the accent marks.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

So there's no one, no one to criticize us, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Exactly. That's really important.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Yeah. So, you know, some some uh definitions might say it's the idea of completing. I like the idea of the the definition of equipping, so it's to equip the saints. Yes, in God's eyes, we're perfect, we're wholly sanctified, but there's an ongoing um sanctification where the spirit uh matures us as we obey the scriptures, and we're equipped by these um or or these roles were given to equip the believers. So that would be the first purpose.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

The second is that is just to jump in primarily what the word means. So you said you like that, but it's it is the definition of the word in contrast with another word in just a moment.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Because yes, we'll see the word perfect in English again, but again, it's a different Greek word. So the importance again of looking into the original. So um that's the first purpose. Then he says, for the work of ministry. Well, work of ministry, we don't think of it that way, but this is first, let's look at the word ministry. It's uh where we get our word deacon. So it's deakonos, literally one who serves. And and actually the word deacon originally came from uh in Greek the idea of uh being a waiter, serving the table, uh meeting the physical needs of the guests. So uh, and then it became deacon, so just service to uh believers in the church. But he says, guess what? He says this is work, this is the usual Greek word for work, ergon, where we get the English word ergom ergomatic, for example. Um, so he's saying that you kind of have to learn how to do this work, and these roles were given to help you figure out how to serve and that service is actually work. It's not that you just kind of sit back and it happens, you have to be involved with it, work at it. Uh, and then he says, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Well, I actually really like this verse uh or this phrase, you know, we've seen this word before, edify okidomo. So the idea, and this is often used in scripture of the church being compared to a structure. So we saw this in chapter two, it's built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Christ is the cornerstone. So the structure, and he's saying it's being edified, it's being built up. So could be in the idea of expanding or uh in reinforcing it, shoring it up. But the body of Christ has to be built up. So this is an important verse because it tells us why the roles were given. So, first of all, to equip believers, then for the work of ministry, so people know exactly how to minister um and to do that work, and then um the the idea of building up the body of Christ, the church.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

So I'm sure you have comments, Bill. Go for it. Oh, uh not too much. I I think we when you you stressed on the work of ministry, which I didn't in my mind, that you said it was meaning of training uh to do the work, which I think is good and appropriate. In my mind, and and this is my question to you, I think a ministry is work. So um it's not always easy, and it takes initiative and effort because we're serving God. That that was my stress in my mind. How do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

No, I think about it that way too. You know, I I mean when we get up in the morning and go to work, that's our task for the for the day. You know, we have to be determined and get up and go do it. So I think this is the same with ministry. It should be um something we look at as a job, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

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SPEAKER_02 10:25

Till, this is the Greek word metri, and it means up until something, some event at some time. Now, interestingly, the word in the secular Greek and in the Bible doesn't differentiate whether it continues after that time is limited or not. So it may stop or it may go on, and we'll come back to this until we all come to the unity of the faith, so we've spoken about earlier. So whatever is given in verse 11 of these talents in the early church to the equipping of the saints and their work at the ministry happens until the unity of faith, the knowledge of the Son of God. So knowledge here, epigenosis. This is a special word, and it's very important actually, it comes from Genosis, where we get the word Gnostic in the mystery religion, and epi on the front, and secondary meant perception for Paul and Peter, second Peter 2, use it to mean the special, closer knowledge associated with Christians after they've come to believe. It's a knowledge that non-believers or even earlier saints before the church couldn't have. So, uh until they come to this knowledge of the Son of God, named Christ, and to the perfect man. Now, this is talios, if you've heard that before, um the perfect man or mature man, and it differs from the mature or um perfect word in verse 12, where that meant equipped. I'm not going to try to say the word again. Talios means more of a mature man in terms of character and knowledge, and of how he or she lives their life. So went to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Fullness here is poor. Full again has a abstract meaning in the Greek of mature. So we have three words here of maturity: the epigenosis, the teleos, the poema, the full-up of Christ basically, and who he is. And these are things that are achievable uh in our lives. Now, I mention that because another way to look at these verses are the future. Some commentators will look at this and go, well, it's perfect, that can't happen until Christ comes again. And in verse 13, if that's true, that means the body of Christ and I think even individuals will never be mature. But we know from other passages, a lot of other passages, this maturity is available to Christians in our current life, and I think therefore the church. So I don't think this can be talking about the future. Um so that you're gonna say something. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

No, go ahead. I think you're about to address it, but there's another reason why I agree with what you just said. Oh well, please.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

I may not be about to address it.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Um, so it says to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. So measure, of course, is where we get our word um metron, metric. So this is something I think it's telling us that we can build metrics on. These are measurable things. If it's in the future, then there you it couldn't be measured, right? But now it's saying these are things that are measurable, and that's another reason why I think it applies now.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

I think you know, um that that's a side topic. So let's come back to that. So I I was gonna mention it by the triangle. I thought you were so but I pushed you, I admit. So so what we had then is that God gave in verse 11. Sorry, this is complicated, people with with talents that were special in the early church to supercharge the maturity of the church, and until we could come to the point where we could be unified and mature. So, what point was that? Well, spoiler alert, I think very important. Here is verse 14, that we would not be tossed to and fro with uh other doctrines that were political, and 16 to work together efficaciously to the body. Now, I think the point that that has occurred, did occur was when the Bible became abandoned. So you remember in the early church there was no Bible. People were dependent upon the apostles, but where they were not apostles, there were only 12 of them, and they were spread out across the world. Uh, they had these people with special maturity up until the time they had the letters from Paul, Peter, John, especially. And we know Christ spoke to us and speaks to us through the New Testament canon, um Hebrews 1, verses 1 and 2. So at that point, the church could be united, it could be mature and work together and be stealed against heresy. Did you all comment on that?

SPEAKER_03 16:15

No, I really agree, and and we will get into this more in the in the subsequent verses, but you know, when the canon, the the Bible became complete, then you know we're we're told in Hebrews 1 that Christ is the complete revelation of God, and the scriptures record Christ and um you know what the Spirit inspired the apostles to write. So there is a verifiable written document that can be used, and it does solidify the unity around the essential doctrines, and um, you know, it it can believe it can bring them believers to um maturity. So yeah, I I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yes, and the essential doctrines being the uh salvation work and the person of Jesus Christ is God and man and the Godhead.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

So and and all the ones listed in four through six above, right? One, one, one, those are all the unifying things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

So yes, so that's um uh key. So as a reminder, I again some people might say, well, gee, the the Bible there was the canon wasn't finalized till 397 officially. I think that was fourth age, I can't remember, about the 397 AD. However, these letters were known and circulated only. There was essentially, you know, from early New Testament writers, a pretty set canon even in the 100s AD. So these letters were known and circulated, they would have learned the word of God um to solidify them. Now back to the measure of the stature of the fullness. I I probably look at this a little bit differently, uh, in that I think that God gave the measure of faith uh as needed to um to reach maturity uh in price. So uh whatever was needed. So, what are your comments on that?

SPEAKER_03 18:26

So I think stature is an important uh word, the idea of being um an adult or a full age. Um and he's basically saying, I think he's saying that he wants people to uh measure up to the fullness of Christ. So all that Christ is, that's what he wants, that's what these roles were given, so that people could measure up to it. So I I guess we look at that a little bit differently, but you know what? We're married, of course we do. And if we both thought the same thing on everything, there wouldn't be any reason to have two people, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Um, yes, dear. That's all you know. What can I say? No, I I think I think we're close, and uh obviously um it it's a uh it comes from God, so our our help in maturity. When you say measure, things that can be measured, what sort of ways would you measure this maturity?

SPEAKER_03 19:30

You know, I I think they're based in verse 12. You know, are we um you know, doing the work of the ministry? Are we building up the body of Christ? You know, I think these are measurable things in our lives that show that we are um maturing up to what Christ would have us be.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, so I think actually there are some passages that help us measure the church, amazingly, and uh for instance, I think the most basic is 1 John chapters 23. It talks about obedience and love and wealth of doctrine, but there are others that you can use um uh in the people's five that the church man teaches, and um has good judgment between right and wrong. The qualities of an elder, the qualities of a deacon, first Timothy III and uh Titus one uh are also uh in the um first Thessalonians one, uh talking about um uh the way of the uh uh disciple and what they do, also a very basic point. So, do you have any other uh good passages you what you can?

SPEAKER_03 20:44

No, I I those ones that you mentioned are great. I usually think of qualities of an elder first or a deacon. You know, these are we're supposed to be mature leaders uh to to guide the body, so it's a great list.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah, and you can use actually all scripture uh in terms of the epistles and and those qualities mentioned. But again, just to emphasize that that when I talk about the canon becoming available, uh it is the New Testament, it's the Old Testament. But again, let me emphasize that for the church, those orders spoken to us are uh commands, admonitions, our wisdom come with the risen Christ and the ascended Christ uh speaking back to us in the epistles. Those are the uh from Romans to the book of Revelation, chapter three, and that's uh where we should focus our learning of all the Bibles, God's word is important, and we learned so much from them, but our marching words are in those apostolic Bibles.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Yeah, I think Romans 8 adds to that as well, that that's how the Spirit leads us. Um, you know, really important. So again, the importance of scripture.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

So to review comments. So what we cover today is 14 adds to the history of the church, giving that foundation of that history that allows us to use God's word to live a mature Christian life. So we know from verse 11, God gave some apostles and evangelists, the pastors, etc., for a time to equip the body in verse 12 until up until the time of the unity and the maturity of the church. And that could be accomplished when they had the written book of God, which really happened uh started in the 50s AD and was completed with John's revelation around 95 A.D. Do you have any closing comments on that?

SPEAKER_03 23:01

No, that's a great summary. And next week it's be even more exciting. I wish we had time to dive into that now, but we don't.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

And not to exhaust everybody, right? Well, thank you for being with us today. We'll look forward to seeing you on the next video.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Next time. Thank you all. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Mastery Podcast. Join us next week for another exciting episode.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

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