Bible Mastery
The Bible Mastery Podcast brings you verse-by-verse teaching that’s clear, grounded, and life-changing. We take the Bible at its word—interpreting it in a normal, literal way—so you can uncover its deep truths about salvation, spiritual well-being, and daily living. Our goal is simple: to help you understand Scripture and equip you with the tools to interpret it confidently, without getting lost in noise or speculation.
Bible Mastery
Bible Mastery - Ephesians 5:12-14
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Thanks for listening to the Bible Mastery Podcast, brought to you by Teleios. In this episode, William and Jeanette Stewart will cover Ephesians 5:12-14.
The Bible Mastery Podcast brings you verse-by-verse teaching that’s clear, grounded, and life-changing. We take the Bible at its word—interpreting it in a normal, literal way—so you can uncover its deep truths about salvation, spiritual well-being, and daily living. Our goal is simple: to help you understand Scripture and equip you with the tools to interpret it confidently, without getting lost in noise or speculation.
For show notes, visit https://biblemasterypodcast.com/.
To learn more about Teleios, visit https://teleiosresearch.com/.
Hello, and welcome to the Bible Mastery Podcast, sponsored by Teleos and hosted by co-founders Bill and Jeanette Stewart. Here, we give you verse-by-verse teaching from the truth of scripture that's clear, grounded, and life-changing. Our goal is to help you understand the Bible and equip you with tools to interpret it yourself confidently and correctly. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_03I am William Stewart, co-founder of Teleos, here with my fellow co-founder of Teleos, Jeanette.
SPEAKER_02Hi everyone, I'm Jeanette Stewart. Glad to be with you today.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back. So glad to be with you. We are in Ephesians 5 and in a section that's talking to how to live the Christian life in the church. And in this chapter, we've talked about who not to be. We don't live like we did in our prior lives in consistent sin, who we should be, and then how to interact with those who don't believe, which we're in the middle of this section now. And we don't basically fellowship, otherwise, we don't make a life with those who are unbelievers in the prior verse 11. So we start today in verse 12. And just as a reminder, before we start, visit our website and please leave us a good review if you can. Like us, ask questions. We are so on YouTube. And also if you like, sometimes we mention the Greek here in this podcast. I do have another podcast, also going through Ephesians, and now Colossians, we went through Ephesians first on learning biblical Greek, going right into the text itself and talking about theology. It's a good backup for what we do, though I'm a little boring because we don't have Jeanette on that podcast. But you still might find it useful. So, Jeanette, with that context in mind, take it away in verse 12.
SPEAKER_02Yes, thank you, Bill. And I do appreciate that you always put us into context, recognizing that as we study any part of scripture, the context is essential to proper understanding what it means at the time it was written to those who received it and read it. That's pretty critical. So great review. We are in the section comparing believers with unbelievers, believers being those that are light, and unbelievers being characterized by darkness. And I think that's such a good analogy of light and dark. When you're in the dark, you stumble around and trip and stub your toe, and it's not very fun, right? But we do equate light with things that are good and bright and pleasurable. So here in verse 12, then it says, For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. So again, it's speaking about people who are in the dark, so unbelievers. And it says, it's a shame even to speak about them. So what on earth does this mean? Are we supposed to be Pollyanas and we just sweep everything under the rug and assume everything's good? Or because we're not supposed to speak about it? What should we understand this exhortation to mean?
SPEAKER_03Clarify, you said this was about unbelievers. So it's not about them not speaking about things that are shameful. I think you're saying it's Christians who should not speak about things that are shameful.
SPEAKER_02Yes, sorry, the them is the ones that are doing the dark things. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. So, how are believers to speak about their activities? And I think I understand this to mean that we shouldn't sit around and hash out all the gory details of unbelievers' sin or even of sin of Christians who are doing things they shouldn't be doing. We're supposed to reprove, which I think just by the fact that we are children of light, our whole character and how we live does shame people. People that are doing sinful things don't want to be around people that aren't doing sinful things. We also sometimes need to call people out verbally, but we don't need to go through every small detail of what they're doing. We can just say, hey, this is wrong and move on. So I think when it says don't don't speak of them, it really means the content of your conversation about the specific deed. Bill, do you want to add to that? I'm sure there's more that you can oh, I can always add something.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for starting the conversation on this. I think it's really important. Let me throw this question back to you first. That's your verse, so you should speak first. When should a believer talk about shameful things ever? Is it ever appropriate?
SPEAKER_02That's a really good question. And sometimes I think it is appropriate when let's say there's a believer who is involving themselves in shameful things. Sometimes that needs to be called out publicly. But someone in the church, for example, who's doing something that is wrong and causing influencing other people, perhaps causing them to stumble, that needs to be called out. Not all the gory details, but enough that people understand that's wrong. With unbelievers, I think we know that unbelievers do have a conscience until it's seared, but most of them know what they're doing wrong. I don't think we need to define that with them. Most people have a knowledge of their own sin and they do realize they they need salvation as you speak with them.
SPEAKER_03And you said public call-out. Don't you think that most occurrences, say with believers, it doesn't need to be public. Otherwise, if you know somebody is having sex outside of marriage, I think this is even consistent with scripture, Matthew 18, which may well apply to the church, that you can go to them privately and talk to them about the sin. And sometimes you're going with somebody else, or you need wisdom, and it's appropriate to talk to somebody else, or when they bring them to you, about what your plans might be. Again, as you nicely say, don't go through all the details, but to talk about it in sufficient detail that you know how to help that person. I guess I would raise the hypothesis that it the time that's appropriate to talk about sin is when you plan to do something about it, to help somebody, not to revel in the details or to stimulate yourself, but to actually assist.
SPEAKER_02You raise a really good point, Bill. And I think what you said is generally true. I think there are instances, and I think we've seen them in recent years in the church where leaders, and let's use your example of sexual sin, leaders who are well identified publicly engage in a sexual sin, and everybody knows about it. It really brings down the entire church. That in my mind needs to be acknowledged publicly. There needs to be a response so that people realize, hey, this was wrong, even though it was done by a leader. So I think in the general day-to-day, you're correct, but I think there are times when it has to be done.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with that. But I think most Christians don't go around publicly calling out their pastor. So they're doing down in the trenches. I you used to do that all the time. And I realize you're special, but but for us down in the trenches, including you, we're dealing with people's individual sins on occasion that that takes a private, but you may have to create a plan out of concern. I think the Greek grammar, I think, supports that concept in this verse because when it says to speak, it's in the present tense. So it's continual action. So to go around continually talking about people's sin for the sake of gossip, making yourself feel better, to stimulate yourself, that's wrong. But a one-time what in the Greek would be the aeros, one-time punctilliar tense, which is not used here for a one-time instance of speaking about that sin in order to help somebody, I think that's a good thing. And not talking, that's all what's talking about in this verse, a continual talking about sin.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and spoiler alert, a few verses down from here, we're gonna see that Paul tells believers what they should be talking about. And as you always like to say, Bill, if you're doing the things that you should be doing, you won't be doing the things that you shouldn't be doing. And so here we're getting the remind myself that all the time. But it's so true, isn't it? You think about the right things, you do the right things, you speak the right things, and your life is flip filled with the things that are good and profitable. And I think this is telling us what's not.
SPEAKER_03So why shouldn't we talk about sin? It's real, it goes, it's in the world, and people we know are probably doing it. Why is it harmful?
SPEAKER_02Again, uh, I think we don't need those details. I think generally when people are chatting about it, as you just said, it's gossip, or they say they want to put it on the prayer list. Sometimes that borders on gossip. Not the prayer list, yes, the eternal prayer list, and not to mock that, we do pray and God answers, but I think we should think talk about the solution to the problem, not so much the problem itself. God is gracious and he has a wonderful solution, and it's salvation through Christ and then godly living, because we're regenerated, recreated as new people who belong to God. So I think that should be the content of our speech.
SPEAKER_03I should clarify the prayer list joke. I think sometimes churches have a prayer list for the intention of good, but sometimes it can be a source of gossip. Yeah, and ill intention. Okay. So I think it can continually talk about sin, it can be discouraging. Not only can it cause us to sin, and I think as it says in Galatians 6:1, help your brother or sister, but don't be caught up in their sin. I think it catches us in sin as well for the reasons you said. It's interesting. There's some Christian news journal, I won't say the name, that's put out every day. And there's really good Christian news sources in general. Probably this is the most common one I see. They continually, every time a big-time pastor falls into sin, some sex problem, it's always there. And I go, okay, why do they need to continually report this? Can't they report on something good? People coming to faith. And those articles are there sometimes. People's successful ministries and people's growing in their faith and things that are encouraging. So we know pastors fall into sin, and perhaps they're called out publicly, as you said, in their church, and that's what's needed. It doesn't have to be broadcast over the whole nation. But again, it's I think it can become discouraging. So we have to be really careful with our speech.
SPEAKER_02That discerning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what we say is for the good of the other person and for encouragement. Have we talked out to death now? Please move us to the next verse. Oh, okay.
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SPEAKER_03Verse 13. But so this is the conjunction. Remember, these conjunctions are important in Greek, but gives direction to the next first day. So this is the same general topic, but moving on to more information as Runge has stated at logos software. That sounds funny, but he's there was. I'm not sure if he's still there, Greek expert working with them. All things that are reproved. And here's this word elenko, generally means reproof in scripture, but has a broader, Kittle says, a broader meaning of everything that a teacher does, from teaching to encouragement to reproof. It generally has a negative sense in scripture where you're correcting somebody. So all things that are reproved are manifested by the light. Otherwise, people who are doing sin, they're going to get away from this unless something of the light, maybe it's a law generated by Christian ethics or Christians themselves, come along with the light and show them what they're doing. So they don't like that light. So, as you implied the last verse, on about the light. So whatever is made manifest is by the light. That's that's what it takes. Somebody has to call these people out. So that's why we have laws. God has ordained leaders, and there's laws so that there's order and the gospel can go forward and people can live productive lives. So, but Christians also are a source of that light. So remember, our laws are based in Christian ethics generally, and Christians themselves are there to shine the light on sin. This could be personal sin. Again, the idea of say somebody in your work is committing fraud and hurting the company, risking people's jobs. We shine the light on that. We call people's attention to it. It could be public problems that say fraud in the government, where they're giving tons of money to private organizations to further a globalist agenda by giving away that money fraudulently to groups that support it. So that that needs to be called out and is evil. So, yes, that's part of what we do. And we're here to serve God and we're here to have a spiritual ministry, but we're not to neglect those aspects which maintain order in our society. Jeanette, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02You know, I I agree with that, Bill. And I think this really is following up to verse eight when he basically says, before you were a believer, you were darkness, but now you're light in the Lord. So live circumspectly, live as a child of the light. So all our conduct should be characterized by the things that are good and righteous before God and truth. So, you know, it's how we think, how we act, what we say. Everything should come under this definition of light because we belong to God and that's who we are.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and we're not to be seduced by the darkness, even though that can be tempting, particularly with areas of sex, power, and money, but it will ultimately destroy our Christian witness.
SPEAKER_02Verse 14. So he said, awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light. I think Bill and I hold a minority view on what this means. I think this is talking about salvation, where many people think it's talking about a Christian's lifestyle. But let's pick it apart. It says, when it says in scripture that he saith, generally that's talking about something that was written in the Old Testament. Many people would put this with some verses in Isaiah where it says awake and awake, but there's not a direct quote of which I'm aware uh that this is taken from in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_03So how do you handle that? It says safe, but how do you handle the fact there's not a direct quote?
SPEAKER_02I think let's look at the words. So when he says awake and arise from the dead and Christ shall give thee light, to me, those are terms that speak of salvation. Before we are believers, we are dead in our sins. That's a biblical principle in the New Testament that is quite easy to validate. Talking about arising, this is the word for standing up again. So the idea of being raised from the dead speaks to me of resurrection, and Christ giving light speaks to me of salvation. So I think, I think in my mind, this is very clear, a salvation verse. So I think what he's saying here is when we as believers live as children of the light and we reprove things of darkness, the answer to those dark things, to the behaviors of unbelievers is salvation. God wants them to be saved. And I think that should be the content of our speech, as opposed to all the individual sins that we just spoke about. Bill, I know you have that outstanding question on how we deal with Old Testament indirect quotes, but can you comment on what I said first and then we'll get back to that?
SPEAKER_03No, I want to do my question first, but thank you for clarifying that. So we're dealing with two questions that I interrupted and put this extra question in there for which I apologize. So Dio, therefore, is the, and you taught me this years ago, and it's true, is the strongest, therefore. Again, this conjunction, giving direction. So he's saying because of what but before, about how non-Christians act. I think he's pausing here for a verse, as you said, Jeanette, to call out the people with the darkness, the unbelievers, to tell them what to do. And so awake, egaro, that's uh resurrection, as you said. Sleep here can be confusing because it's used two or three times in 2 Thessalonians 5, first half of the chapter, first 10 verses for believers who are seem to be lazy or perhaps not doing quite the right thing. Again, anesthemy, again, related to resurrection, dead, light. Earlier we saw darkness. These are all salvation words, and I think it's important when you're looking at a verse, realizing some verses are about salvation, some verses are about the Christian life. There are words associated with both types of topics. So light, darkness, resurrection, dead, life are generally related to salvation verses because we are given life through our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So contextually, we just talked about the unbelievers and their behavior. So, yes, I think in context and the words, besides sleep, the preponderance of evidence here, I think, goes to these, he's calling out the unbelievers to believe. Now, I think Jeanette said it was controversial because I think most people think this is related to lazy Christians or Christians who are not being obedient. So you may have to look at this and decide for yourself which you think is correct. Any further comment on that? And I can discuss how to handle the Old Testament quote.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I really agree again, Bill. I'm pretty convinced on this. And in my mind, it's consistent with what we see of God. He wants some believers to come to faith, and that's how we should be characterized. You know, we are to take the message of the gospel to other people. They're responsible for what they do with it. We're not responsible for their response, but in obedience to God, we do tell people the truth of Christ, that He is the Savior and they need to put their faith in Him. So I think this is very consistent with God's character that instead of talking about all the bad stuff, let's provide a solution so that people know the truth and can come to faith.
SPEAKER_03Good. So back to the Old Testament quote. And as you nicely said, there is no exact quote in the Old Testament for this phrase. I think so.
SPEAKER_02Isaiah 60, verse 1 is probably the closest, but it's as you just said, it's not exact.
SPEAKER_03So there are other verses like this. So I think it's John 7, 38 about the streams of water, uh the gut that represent the Holy Spirit. It's either 37 or 38. Um it's an example of another verse that's not exactly quoted in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I see, gotcha.
SPEAKER_03So I'm trying to discuss how to handle the fact that this is not discussed in the Old Testament, or that there's no exact quote. Got it. So I think it it reflects the fact that there's overriding messages in multiple verses in the Old Testament. The resurrection is one of them. Job 19, Job 14, in Psalm 16, 8 to 11, the book of Daniel, chapter 12, verse 1 and 2. That that's clear there's a resurrection. There's people resurrected. Into new life, as we see with the Shumamite woman in 2 Kings 5, uh, and with the widow of Zarephath in uh second 1 Kings 17. So God is the God of life. In John 7 regarding the Holy Spirit and its provision in the New Testament, we see messages of cleansing and water related that have a sotological meaning a number of times in the Old Testament, like with Noah coming through the Red Sea, perhaps crossing the Jordan in multiple instances, the baptism of John and of Christ Himself, even early into the gospel. So there's this overriding message of the cleansing and purification that come from God. So I think we even as we talk to other people about the Old Testament, we'll generalize what the Old Testament's saying and with the overall intention of the Old Testament, like God's power in the Old Testament or the law and the intention of the law. I think it's an appropriate way to do it. Otherwise, Paul here did not quote numerous verses and bog down a text about numerous verses in the Old Testament about resurrection. He summarized.
SPEAKER_02He summarized that. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03Can you say that better?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's summarizing the theme which is prevalent in the Old Testament scriptures. And I think it's uh we would do the same if we were speaking to somebody. Just seems normal.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So what we covered today, we've talked about how we as Christians interact with the world, that we do reprove bad and don't go around talking about it, but we will reprove it. And to keep a society that has order and the laws are obeyed. And we call people to come to Christ by faith and wanting them to do this instead of staying in the darkness. Next time we'll come to a wonderful series of verses that talk about having said all this from verse 15 and before, or 14 and before, how we now live.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is so good. God doesn't leave us in a vacuum when he tells us not to do something, he tells us what to replace it with. And I think next time we'll have so much fun because it's so rich in what we should be doing.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Jeanette.
SPEAKER_01All right, see you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Mastery Podcast. Join us next week for another exciting episode.
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