EP 09 | How Do I Know I've Forgiven Them?

In this episode of the Necessary Things Podcast, Dr. Christy Bee presents a new episode series called “Here’s the Thing” where she provides a Bible based and Spirit led response to the questions that viewers and listeners of the podcast send in. In this “Here’s the Thing” episode, she uses Biblical references and personal anecdotes to answer the question “how do you know that you’re truly over something that someone has done to you, and forgiven them?” This episode provides listeners with a honest and balanced perspective of forgiveness and what it takes to heal after an offense.

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Welcome to the Necessary Things Podcast, where we have necessary conversations about faith, life, your soul, and everything in between. And these conversations are to point us to the most necessary thing in life, which is submission to God, His Word, His will, and His Spirit. I'm your host, Dr. Christy B, and not only am I really happy to be here, I'm so glad that you are here. Whether you're tuning in via YouTube or listening on the audio podcast, we have a special treat for you guys today. And this treat is a new type of episode called Here's the Thing. There are times where the conversations we are having here at the Necessary Things Podcast invoke questions or remind you of a dilemma that you may be experiencing in life. And so we've created this space where viewers like you can send in your questions, can send in your scenarios, and these episodes are a space for us to have a dialogue and address some of the things that are on your hearts and your minds. Without further ado, let's jump into our next necessary conversation here at the Necessary Things Podcast. So today is such a special day because we're jumping into our very new episode series called Here's the Thing. And we have a really good question from a viewer from Jersey City, New Jersey. And the question is: how do you know that you're truly over something that someone has done to you or that you have forgiven them? I love this question for multiple reasons. One, you cannot escape the conversation of forgiveness as a human, let alone a Christian. And two, I have had so many people talk to me over the years about just their process of forgiveness. How do I embark on forgiving someone? How do I really know that I've forgiven someone? How do I just get over the pain? And we're gonna jump into this because it's a necessary conversation for every believer, for every human on the face of this earth. So, the best way for me to address this question is to first clarify that there are two separate questions in one. And that's okay. We have a question about forgiveness. How do we actually know that we've forgiven people who have offended us or harmed us, right? And then we have the question about getting over someone who has offended us. We'll get to the getting over a little later, but let's start with forgiveness. Before we can answer that question, how do we know we've forgiven someone? Let's create a foundation that we all can stand on equally. What is forgiveness? From a biblical standpoint, of course. Forgiveness is a gift that you extend to someone, where you release them from a prison of your heart. Someone who has done you wrong, someone who has offended you. When you choose to forgive them, you are choosing to extend mercy to them and not keep them imprisoned in a place in your heart where you are forever remembering what they've done or engaging with them as if they have never done that thing to you. Another way we can understand forgiveness is that it's a command. Over and over in scripture, we are commanded to forgive. And the beautiful thing about God is that when he gives a command, it really is a choice. You choose if you want to or not. And if you choose not to forgive, he's very clear on what the consequences of that are. So let's go to a few scriptures to ground us in understanding forgiveness as a command in God's kingdom. Starting with Ephesians 4, verse 32. And it reads, And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. In the scripture, Paul is really clear. The call, the command, the invitation to forgive is a reflection of the forgiveness that we freely receive as Christians from the Father. And so when we choose to forgive, we are choosing to reflect the heart and the character of God. We are choosing to take on the character of Christ and walk in his way. Because even Jesus chose to forgive, not just us and the world, but he chose to forgive those who offended him and did wrong to him on his walk on this earth as an example for us who would follow him. Another scripture that is important for us to go to in this conversation of what is forgiveness is Matthew 18, verses 21 to 22. In this scripture, Peter comes to Jesus and he's got questions. Jesus is speaking on forgiveness. How do you deal with a brother that has sinned against you? And verse 21 says, Then Peter came to him and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times? That question alone is layered, right? Peter is wrestling with the reality that as humans, we are going to experience a brother sinning against us. We are going to experience someone offending us, someone doing harm to us. But underneath this question is this wrestle, like, how much do I accept? How many times do I have to forgive them and release them from my heart? Is there a point where I can say no more and go on with my life? And Jesus' response to him in verse 22 is, I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to 70 times seven. Now, someone will actually do the math and say, Oh, Jesus is saying that we should forgive this number of times. No, Jesus had a really crafty way of communicating biblical truths and truths about God's kingdom to those who would listen. In this moment, he is pointing Peter and us readers away from a specific number. He is saying, it is not the number that is important. But every time, when you think about the number of seven, it's a number of perfection. Every single time you are offended by someone, every single time someone does something to harm you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you ought to forgive. Matthew 6, verse 14 to 15 is another scripture that we should go to in this discussion. And it reads, For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. If there was ever a mission statement, if there was ever a clear statement in Scripture about why God calls us to forgive, it's that scripture. The east and the west, they never meet. If you keep going east, you're never gonna start going west, and vice versa. Why did the psalmist use that imagery to explain forgiveness? Because he wants us to understand that when God forgives, he completely removes the stench, the stain, the memory of our sin from us, and he makes us new. And because God, this perfect, holy, divine being, offers mercy to us who sin over and over and over again. We, as those who have chosen to follow Christ, are called to do the same. As God forgives us, freely forgive others. Because if not, then you are not only keeping yourself imprisoned, and we can talk a little bit more about that in a moment, but you are also hindering yourself from receiving free forgiveness from the Father. Another way for us to understand forgiveness is that it's an expression of the mercy of God. As we mentioned earlier, God is so merciful towards us, his mercies never end, his compassion is never failing. When we understand the character of God, when we understand how freely he forgives us and he extends mercy to us, then we understand that his invitation, him saying forgive others, is so that we can be those who express his mercy in the earth. Last but not least, I think it's important for us to understand that forgiveness is an active choice we get to make, regardless of if the person deserves it or not. Jesus didn't talk about, he didn't say anything about the person deserving it. Regardless if this person recognizes that they have harmed you or offended you, regardless if you hear sorry, we are called to forgive, to express the mercy of God on the earth, and to in turn be free. Because when discussing forgiveness, we have to come to the understanding that if we choose not to forgive, it's like us drinking poison and thinking that it's going to harm someone else. We are only hurting ourselves when we keep people imprisoned in our hearts because of the things they have done to offend us. So now that we've discussed what forgiveness is, and that you were raised in, based off of the environments that have raised you and cultivated your way of thinking, you may think you are practicing forgiveness, but actually not be. For one, forgiveness is not passivity. It is not looking at an offense, looking at someone doing harm to you and saying, ah, it's okay. No. Forgiveness is not saying it's okay to the wrong to when people sin against you. Forgiveness is also not sweeping an offense under the rug just to keep the peace. How many times have I heard people say, oh, I just want peace? But rather than addressing the offense, rather than having the hard conversation, rather than confronting the sin pattern that is being expressed by another party, they just turn a blind eye to it. That's not what God is calling us to when He calls us to forgive. Forgiveness is also not saying that you've released someone from your heart, but continue rehearsing the offense in your mind. Doing so is only, once again, keeping you imprisoned. It's refueling the anger or the hurt that you felt from the offense. That is not forgiveness. And forgiveness is not saying that you've released someone from your heart while still treating them like they've offended you. If we forgive, then how we engage with the person who harmed us, who hurt us, needs to reflect the mercy of Christ. Ultimately, forgiveness is an act of choice to release a person from the debt that they may owe you for wronging you. Like God does with our own sins, forgiveness is choosing to blot out the stain of how a person has wronged you so that you can also be free. Now that we have a understanding that is communal about what forgiveness is, let's address the second part of that question. How do I know if I've actually forgiven someone? I like to go the route of asking honest questions and responding honestly with the help of Holy Spirit to see if I actually have forgiven someone who's offended me. The first question that I would like to ask you and pray you consider answering honestly is have you actively made the choice to forgive that person or that party? If you are not actively making the choice, forgiveness does not just happen. So that is always the first step. We have to choose to forgive. And if you're scratching your head wondering, have I? Chances are you haven't actually, and it's time to change that. Another question to ask yourself to identify if you've forgiven someone is can you look at that person with eyes of compassion? When the Lord began teaching me how to forgive, and yes, I had to be taught by the Lord how to forgive because of this flesh, it didn't come natural or easy. He would ask me, can I look at the person with the same level of justice that I wanted for myself? Could I look at the person and ask for them to be justified the same way I wanted to be justified? Why did he ask me that question? Because if I am more willing to be the person who is justified, the person who is seen as the one who was done wrong against, and not in turn look at the other person as someone who was wrong, if even if it wasn't by me, then chances are I'm struggling to really forgive. There was a time where the Lord had me in a really tough season, and I talk about those a lot because we can't escape them. I was in this really tough season, and there was a certain individual who it just felt like left and right, they were offending me. And when I say offended, I don't mean like, oh, I was offended by every little thing that they did. They were sinning against me, lying behind my name, actively um just like plotting against me. It was really intense. And I remember one day the Lord gave me revelation that the way this person was showing up in their interactions with me was because of a painful experience that they endured at the hand of someone else. They never dealt with it, they never healed, they barely forgave that person. And so when it came to me, they were projecting the pain of that past situation on me. Did it make it right? Absolutely not. But I was able to, with that word of knowledge, extend compassion to someone who was willfully doing harm against me and hurting me because I saw that they needed healing, that they needed for their heart and their soul to be tended to by the sweet and loving presence of Jesus. I saw that they needed freedom and I wanted that for them. If you cannot look at someone who has harmed you with compassion, if you cannot extend a level of mercy to them, you have to sit and wrestle with if you've really forgiven that person. The third question I'd like to offer you to help you identify if you've forgiven someone is this can you engage with that person with the mercy and love of Christ as if they've never done anything wrong to you? Now, this is hard, right? Because the truth is when you forgive someone, that doesn't mean you forget. But if you have truly chosen to forgive, like God calls us to forgive in his word, that means that you are willing to treat someone like they never did wrong. And sometimes that can be very difficult, especially when the person does not change, right? Forgiveness, as I mentioned before, is not excusing toxicity, it's not excusing abuse, it's not excusing someone willfully choosing to continue to harm you. That's not what forgiveness is. But even if you don't change, when I choose to forgive like Christ forgives, I can still treat you with his love and not be bitter. So with those three questions that I've offered you, you have plenty to reflect on and pray about. And sometimes the answer will be no. I can't look at this person with eyes of compassion. I can't engage with this person with the love and mercy of Christ yet. I haven't actively chosen to forgive them. Sometimes the answer is gonna be no. And when you finally admit the answer is no, that is where you can invite Holy Spirit in to give you the grace for what you are struggling to actually do. Something that we have repetitively spoken about on this podcast is the compassion and mercy of God towards us. That if we ask him for something, James 1, he will give it to us. He is not an evil father who withholds good gifts from his children. If you are struggling to see someone correctly, if you are struggling to be compassionate, you can go to the father, confess that, and say, Lord, give me the grace to reflect your character in this way. Now, we've addressed the question about forgiveness. And now let's get to the part about getting over what they've done. I like this question, like I mentioned before, because we can't escape the call to forgive, whether we are Christian or not, in this walk on earth, right? But another reason why I love this question is because it offers us the opportunity to really wrestle with what we believe about forgiveness and what it actively looks like in our lives. The goal of us forgiving others who have done us wrong is not to get over the offense. Rather, our goal as Christians should be to heal from the pain, the baggage, the trauma associated with that offense. Why? When we use the term getting over, it really doesn't require us to be intentional about caring for the state of our soul. It's just us wanting to get past whatever we don't like. It kind of feels like us trying to just hurry up and fast forward through what's uncomfortable and move on to what's next. Sounds like conflict avoidance. Sounds like you not really wanting to process through the grief associated with the offense, the pain associated with what they did to you. And that's not God's will for us. That's why I believe the term getting over isn't a part of what God calls us to when He calls us to forgive. Rather, the gift that can come after forgiveness if you engage in the process of healing is you being freed from the impact of the offense that that person or group of people have done to you. I have seen people try to get over things and they still be wounded 10 years later. Oh, I've got stories. I've had someone get over an issue that they had with me, and the next time I spoke to them, it was as if it was the first day when they told me they had that issue with me. They never healed, they never forgave me. Getting over doesn't automatically translate to you being free. You can get over and still hate a person's guts. Like, can we be honest here? If someone has harmed you, and I'm not talking about someone stepping on your shoe. Like, we have to think about the level of offense, right? The level of sin. Someone stepping on my shoe by accident. Yeah, like go on with your life, blessings. There's no problem. It's totally different from someone verbally abusing you for years, physically abusing you for years, someone lying behind you, someone going ahead of you and spreading rumors about you with people who don't even know you, someone stealing from you. You can think of it as like a cup worth of offense versus 10 gallons worth of offense, right? Depending on the level of offense, it might invoke strong feelings out of you. If someone has done something to deeply hurt you, it can cause you to just. Just like not want to be even be in the same room as that person, right? Getting over what they did doesn't deal with the fact that you don't like them, doesn't deal with the fact that you don't feel safe around them, doesn't deal with the fact that you may hate them. And so what that does, the getting over and not really healing, leaves open doors for deeper wounding, deception from the enemy, demonization, and even a spirit of self-righteousness to be expressed through you. Oh, yeah, I got over that. I'm so great. Like that person did such a bad thing to me and I forgave them. I got over that. Did you really? Because the fact that you're boasting about it tells us something different. Getting over things doesn't call us to be intentional about healing our souls. This is why I mentioned earlier that the call to forgiveness embedded in it is a call to heal, a call to process whatever painful emotions come up with that offense and heal. What it does is ask you to care for your soul, to be intentional about taking inventory of what's hidden behind the initial anger or initial pain that may come up after an offense. What this process of healing looks like, admitting the actual wrong done. Listen, we could have 10 conversations about how to say sorry the right way, right? What it sounds like for someone to admit that they've done wrong and take accountability for it. In this world that we live in, there is a huge accountability issue. People young and old struggle with being accountable to themselves and others for their actions and their words. But when you choose to embark on the process of healing, whether or not this person ever admits what they've done, you take power back by choosing to admit this was the wrong done and then identify the negative impact it had on you. Getting over it doesn't give you that power. It actually robs you of it. Getting over it doesn't give you the opportunity to do that hard but good work. Getting over it robs you of your healing. So choosing to heal encompasses you admitting the wrong that was done against you, identifying the negative impact it's had on you, and then the next thing is actually healing from that negative impact. After you've identified how someone's sin against you has impacted you, changed you, hurt you, the next thing is to go to the father and allow him to clean the place, the area of that wound. That is the beauty of healing after an offense. The wounds that are there, whether you want to admit it or not, because I know some macho men and women who don't ever want, like, I'm from the streets. I can't, I can't let nobody see me cry. They hurt you. You need to cry. That thing wounded you. You need to admit that you're hurt, and it's okay, right? Some people refuse to admit that they're hurt, and what happens is that wound that's there doesn't get addressed, and unaddressed wounds get infected, and that infection it spreads, and that can lead to more severe next steps that weren't really necessary if you would have dealt with the wound in the first place. Another aspect of healing that you don't get when you get over it is getting the chance to consider the other person's perspective. I mentioned earlier about the question that God asked me about my need for justice. If I could see the other person needing justice just as bad. As I embarked in healing, it got easier to put myself in other people's shoes and realize, wow, they were sinned against and they never heard sorry. Not saying that what they're doing is right. I want to be completely clear. We're not excusing poor behavior, we're not excusing 40-year-olds who don't know how to speak to people. We're not excusing people, especially those within the body of Christ, not reflecting the character of Christ, though they've been walking with him for decades. That's not what we're excusing. But my ability to put myself in the other person's shoes doesn't take away from me owning and giving myself the space to grieve. But what it does is make me more like Jesus. Because Jesus, while on the cross, and he's being ridiculed, publicly shamed, spat at. Healing allows you to step into that level of love and mercy. Getting over it, you wouldn't stand a chance in that arena. Another part of healing is learning to forgive and release the parties involved. Once again, getting over it, there's no intentionality in it. You're just like, alright, let me just chuck it to the wind, or alright, let me just forget about it. But when you choose to heal, embedded in that is choosing to forgive. Which releases you from the imprisonment that you think you're putting others in when you have unforgiveness, is actually the imprisonment that you're putting yourself in. And when you choose to heal, you release the others and yourself from that level of bondage. So just like we did with the first part of this question, which asks, How do I know if I've forgiven someone? I want to present you with questions to consider to identify if you've healed from the impact of an offense. Not if you've gotten over it, because that's not the call. The first question is: Have you allowed yourself to name and grieve the pain associated with the offense? The other party doesn't have to be a part of that conversation. And the truth is, a lot of times they aren't. We live in a broken world. It's not always that we're going to get what we deserve from others. Some people lack the courage, they lack the capacity, the willingness to go there, to humble themselves and say, you know what, I was wrong. So you may not ever hear another person take accountability for what they did. But if you allow yourself to name the impact and grieve it, you are giving yourself the opportunity to heal from the impact of that offense. Time may pass, but the pain will only be compounded if you don't give yourself that gift. A second question I want to offer to you is do you still feel the same level of pain now that you did at the time of the offense? If the answer to this question is yes, then that can mean that the wound is too fresh or it hasn't been attended to, and you need to address the wound that's there. A third question I want to offer you is do you find yourself still rehearsing the details of the offense from your perspective? Are you holding on to the right to rehearse everything that was said, their facial expression, how they said it? Do you find yourself getting riled up when you remember, oh my gosh, I wish, I wish I could just go back in time? Like, are you exerting so much emotional capital to rehearse the pain? If the answer is yes, that is an indication that you have not given yourself the space to heal from that offense. This last question is one that I love. Can you tell the story of what happened from a place of victory, humility, and grace? What does it sound like to tell the story of what happened from a place of victory? Well, yes, I went through that, but not only did I overcome it, but through it God taught me how to forgive. And I also realized where I could mature. That is what victory sounds like. You walked away from it as an overcomer, you walked away from it with spoils, meaning you're not coming out of this fight with just nothing, you're better for it. Telling the story from a place of humility is, yeah, that person did me wrong, but I realized I had a role to play in the situation. I did them wrong too. If it's a situation where you didn't do the person wrong, telling the story from a place of humility also encompasses what I shared earlier about being compassionate. That thing that they did really crushed me. But as I spent time with the Lord, I realized they need forgiveness too. Last but not least, telling the story from a place of grace can sound like how that person treated me was not okay. But as I sat with it, I realized it was more of a reflection of what they went through with others than it was a reflection of how I deserved to be treated. Being able to tell the story of what you went through from a place of victory, humility, and grace comes with actually doing the work of healing. Before we end, I do want to share a personal story of what forgiveness and healing look like. There was a season in my life where I went through, at that point, I was what 21 years old. It was the worst betrayal I had ever experienced. I had two individuals who I had considered friends, a brother and a sister in the faith, who came together and spread a lie about me that hurt me to my core. It dismantled the relationships that I had in that time. It made me feel so exposed and unsafe. It made me question if I can trust again, and it made me feel as if I could not engage in healthy relationships. Like it wasn't worth it trying. Forgiveness for me, because I had read scripture and I knew the power of forgiveness, and I did not want to give an open door to the enemy to deceive me or for demonization or for torment. I didn't want I didn't want any of that smoke, right? I chose to forgive those individuals instantaneously. I made the choice, I stood by it, it was hard, but I said, I will not allow my heart to grow bitter. The pain, though, of that betrayal was so deep that it took time for me to heal. It was not a one-and-done type situation. There were layers to the offense. These were individuals that I had trusted, that I had ministered with. These were individuals that I had shared parts, intimate parts of my life with. These are individuals that I had counseled, individuals that I had laughed with, like individuals that I was in relationship with, who chose willfully and intentionally to betray me. And what that left me with was layers of pain, layers of wounding that needed to be cared and tended to intricately. Why am I sharing this? It puts together everything we've been talking about today. One, forgiveness is a choice. You choose if you're gonna forgive or not. In that moment, I chose to forgive because I did not want to become ensnared by their offense. But then it also brings into the conversation the process of healing. And yes, it took time, but it was one of the best choices, one of the best investments I made into myself because out of that healing process came a version of me that was able to extend compassion. I could tell you the things that God asked me to do for those individuals years later. And I did it with a whole heart. I did it with a full heart. That would not have been possible if I did not embark in the journey of healing. Now, I do want to extend this grace to the listeners because this conversation that we're having, some of you may have experiences that you're like, Christy, I'm not talking about that level of betrayal. I'm talking about something deeper. And I don't want you to feel like you can wiggle out of this conversation because you may have a 20-gallon offense, while some of the listeners here may be dealing with a three-cup offense. Whether the offense is small or great, we have the command to forgive. And if you choose to let the size of the offense deceive you into thinking you get to wiggle out of the command to forgive, you've been deceived by the enemy, and he is looking for a way to step into your life and have legal ground to wreak havoc. You deserve to be free, and forgiveness and engaging in the process of healing after an offense are two of the best ways for you to pursue the freedom that you have access to in Christ. So before we go into a time of prayer, I again want to invite you to sit with Holy Spirit and allow him to examine your heart. There are times where I thought I was okay. Yeah, I forgave that person. Yeah, I thought I healed from that situation. And I would ask Holy Spirit, search my heart. I would pray with David prayed in Psalm 139, search me and know me, test me and try me and see if there be any offensive way in me. And when I prayed that prayer, God would say, Hey, remember that person? It's like, do we have to? And that was the indication. My response alone was the indication, I need to investigate my resistance to God having a conversation with me about this individual that did me harm. God will respond to your invitation. If you invite him into searching you so that you would not have anything in you that offends him, in his mercy, in his compassion, in his grace and his love for you, he will shine light. And the shining of the light is never condemnation, but it's an invitation into freedom, it's an invitation into healing, it's an invitation into you stepping into what Jesus already paid for on the cross. So once again, take the time to sit with Holy Spirit, allow him to invite him to examine your heart and don't shy away from what he exposes. Let's pray. Father, we come before you humbly. We thank you for the opportunity to use this medium as a way to have these necessary conversations. I thank you for every listener, for every viewer, each and every one of my brothers and sisters all over this globe who are tuning in and creating the space for their souls to be confronted, for their way of living to be addressed, for the places where they are misaligned, for them to be realigned with the ways of your kingdom. I thank you that conversations like this are necessary for us to mature in our faith. And I pray that for my brothers and sisters who are listening, who are watching, that they would not wiggle away from the accountability that these words provide. That they would not try to look away when they hear or see a scripture that asks them to do something they're uncomfortable doing. But Lord, I ask that you would empower them through Holy Spirit to obey this command to forgive. Father, where they are weak, where they've been taught forgiveness is sweeping things under the rug, where they've been taught to run away from painful things, to not address the root of the issue, where they've been taught, whether it be through their family of origin or their environments growing up, where they have been discipled into being passive. Father, I ask that you would shine light and deliver my brother and my sister from this bondage and give them the grace where they are weak, that they would embark on journeys of choosing to forgive, choosing to heal from offense, that they would be free to walk with you, to love your people, and to be a reflection of your love in this earth. Lord God, I pray for those who are still carrying the pain of offenses. Father, I feel the pain and I understand what it feels like to wrestle with layers of grief because of how someone has sinned against you. But Lord, I pray that where deception has crept in and they have felt justified in holding people captive in their souls, Father, would you break open revelation and freedom in their souls right now? Would they no longer partner with the spirit of deception? Would they no longer follow the patterns of this world? Would they be renewed in their mind to go about forgiveness your way? That they would not only receive forgiveness from you, Lord, but be free from the bondage that the enemy brings into our lives when we refuse to forgive. Empower my brother and sister through. The power of the Holy Spirit and cause them to prevail in ways that they may even think that they can't. As Peter was surprised, we ask, Lord God, that for those who are surprised by the call or irritated with the call, more grace, Lord. We pray this in the mighty, compassionate, loving name of Jesus Christ. Amen. I'm so so happy to the one who sent in this question. Thank you for taking the risk, for engaging with us, for trusting us to be truthful, Bible-based, spirit-led in this conversation. Thank you for engaging because I believe many will be blessed by what we've talked about today. And for those of you who have questions, who have life experiences, dilemmas that you're like, I really could use some godly wisdom, a Bible-based spirit-breathed perspective on how to embark this situation. Feel free to send us a DM either on TikTok or Instagram at NecessaryThingsPod or to send us an email via Necessarythingspod at gmail.com. And you never know, your dilemma, if you give us the permission to, will be used in another Here's the Thing episode coming to you soon. I love you all with the love of the Lord. I pray God's grace meets you wherever you are, and that for those who have been struggling to forgive and to heal, that you find not just the grace but the resources to do it and to do it well. Until next time, when we have our next necessary conversation, peace.