Episode 27: 3/17, Infrastructure, and AI

Nexus founder and CEO Daniel Marin appeared on the Exponential podcast this week to address the company's decision to pull back from its March 17th milestone campaign and to lay out his views on AI, agentic finance, and what he sees as the defining infrastructure opportunity of the decade.

The conversation covered ground ranging from how AI is reshaping startup competition to why Daniel believes blockchain infrastructure needs to be designed for autonomous agents — not just human users.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Exponential, a Nexus podcast where we talk about people, code, and capital. I am Daniel McGlenn. In this episode, I talk to Nexus founder and CEO, Daniel Morin, about what's coming next. All right, Daniel, welcome back to Exponential. It's great to have you back on.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Yeah, so I think we'll just jump right in. I think top of mind uh for everyone today is 317. And at Nexus, we've been teasing 317 for a long time. Um so why don't you tell us what is 317 and uh what's going on today?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yes, yes. So 317 was supposed to be the beginning of a series of campaigns leading up to minute launch, right? So what's happening today is that we're uh re-evaluating and readjusting on our 317 uh target and just our campaigns, given um you know a lot of things happening in the external world, right? Uh from like geopolitical things to market conditions to um you know the speed at which AI is improving. And so we are in a position where we need to recalculate our dates. It's that simple. And so uh that's where we are right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Okay. So if you uh kind of publicly do a readjustment like this um and and kind of change dates, um one outcome, potential outcome could be um our community, which is super active, super involved, and and our global global in uh reach and input, um, they might start experiencing FUD or fear, uncertainty, and doubt. So um how are you thinking about that in light of a readjustment and and like you know, what's your reaction to that, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, what what I would say is uh we are living in pretty unique times, right? It's uh never been the case that the pace of technological development has been so fast. The markets are responding to it as well, right? There are um um there are very bullish, there is very bullish uh sentiment uh in favor of AI, and there is certainly uncertainty in like the global macroeconomic markets, right? As well as the employment markets and so on and so forth. And so with respect to um you know the readjustment of a date, it seems to me, you know, potentially the smallest type of uh concern that uh a lot of people would have in the in in the broader external context of the world, right? So, like for us, um we do need to readjust our times, we need to you know gather energy, we need to plan better, we need to be able to execute better, and we to we need to do it so considering all of the uh context at hand, right? And the capabilities of the team and the focus of the team. We don't want the team to uh be distracted by a lot of things when a lot of things are happening. We want them to be focused on shipping the product, right? And so um, yeah, you know, I would presume that uh for the community, I mean I would consider it uh certainly something important, but you know, it's it's a minor, it's a minor thing. It's uh yes, you know, dates get moved across all projects. You certainly don't want to be the project that is you know constantly moving dates, but it's better to move dates than to have mistakes or to ship something that's not great. Like we really care about the quality of the things that we ship. We want to do things right and we want to uh nail what we do and not just rush it, right? So hence, you know, why we are behaving in a way that allows us to keep our cards on our site and hopefully display them when the moment is right.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Okay. So yeah, that's kind of a good segue or transition into the the other thing I wanted to ask is you know, as a founder and CEO of a uh tech startup um in San Francisco, and just you know, the the world is moving quickly where from our vantage point where we're sitting, um, you know, AI, you mentioned AI, but also just um it seems like the the crypto markets and just the the movement on chain is is happening at uh a different kind of pace than maybe is reflected in in some of the mainstream media out um you know headlines. But anyway, my question in all of that is like what are you thinking about right now as uh uh you know a CEO leading a company um at sort of the the frontier of all this? Like what kinds of things are you paying attention to? What kinds of you know um things are are coming up for you that are are kind of new and interesting? And I guess, you know, how do you kind of make this all make sense, all these sort of moving pieces right now?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yes, yes, yes. So the world is um, as I've said in some other podcasts and some other conversations recently, right? It's beginning to constantly appreciate more uh sustainable businesses, uh defensive modes, things that accrue in value and compound in value in time, right? And with the rise of AI um and the speed of developments, there are questions about uh what are defensible modes in the new AI world, right? Is it network effects? Is it speed of improvement? Is it um uh commercial contracts, uh legal advantage, right? Regulatory advantage. Some people are speculating there could be a presence in the physical world, for example, where AI has less disruption. And um I think every startup right now, not it not only every startup, even even every big company in the S ⁇ P 500, right, needs to be constantly trying to push forward uh as fast as possible, so to say, uh towards being at the frontier of using models to their maximum effectiveness, right? And so for us at Nexus, um we've arguably been for a long time close to the frontier of tools and uh usage uh that we use in our in our own technology. That's one of the benefits of being a startup. Um but the space is constantly moving, the capabilities of AI models are improving drastically. The context windows of AI models is improving at a very fast pace, right? So uh I would say that for us it's actually very exciting. Very exciting from the perspective that the capabilities of what we can do and the timelines of what we can uh the timelines that we can achieve are becoming better and better and better. We can achieve more with lower costs, we can achieve more and give our engineers more leverage to to to have a faster uh iterative speed on the product. So um the possibilities are many and are very exciting, but it's also true that one needs to reason uh from a more first principles perspective on the overall trajectory that one wants to bring uh the company into. To that, I will say that lastly, you know, the only there's a phrase that says the only constant thing is change. Okay, right. And uh when one builds a company, one needs to build a company so as to make it the most efficient possible. Right? A company is a financial engine, just as a blockchain is a financial engine, right? But the company is the factory that builds the product. And you need to reason through how to make that factory, so to say, or that financial engine the most uh efficient possible, the uh to to give it the capability to learn as fast as possible, to iterate as fast as possible. And uh that's what we're building, right? Uh hopefully uh the uh a company with maximum efficiency, which will directly translate into uh product outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, you know, one thing this is kind of kind of related to that question I just asked, but um something I've been thinking about a lot recently is this idea that um that it's almost like we are in a bubble, in a bubble, a double bubble, um, where you know um I I was talking to somebody out who's like sort of outside of the industry but also working in marketing and asking about like, hey, are you using AI? Like how's this working? What's it what's happening in your workflows? And I think what's really interesting is like here where we sit um in our exposure to you know these frontier technologies, we feel this push to um adopt AI and we just see it like this wave coming where it's like, okay, we want to be well positioned um as a company, but also you know, as people working with these technologies. Um that's that's the small bubble. And then in the the larger context is you know, obviously we're seeing the the impact of AI across you know um software development and across all kinds of industries. Um and you know that that bubble or that I shouldn't even call it a bubble, that movement or that wave is um kind of like undeniable and we're we're seeing the impact of that. But I think what's interesting or what I keep coming back to is like um being having so much exposure, you know, in in this kind of uh you know, to to that wave in front of the big wave, I guess. Um and I'm kind of curious how how you think about that and and again, how we're sort of positioning Nexus to to be the wave in front of the big wave. And and do you think it'll be like other technology booms we've seen where um you know there there will be the advantage to like early adopters or the the early network effects? You know, we saw that with um we saw that with the the internet, uh we saw it with social web, we saw it with mobile web, like where first movers really did capture a lot of attention. And I kind of wonder if it'll be the same with AI, or do you think it's going to be um will will AI kind of disrupt that like first mover, those network effects that we've seen so far with with internet uh waves as they've come?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah. Uh so on the bubble topic, uh there's obviously the question, right? Like, is AI overhyped? Um I have the opinion that AI is underhyped, even with everything that has been discussed recently. And uh interestingly, uh we were talking with some of our scientific advisors uh back at uh Stanford as well, you know, professors in cryptography that have worked in computer science for decades, right? Um what they say is that they're seeing things that they never thought they would ever see in their lifetimes. And um uh, you know, when you code uh using some of these new models, like the uh the reasoning capabilities of this models are just outstanding. And the uh potential for self-improvement loops to continue going at an accelerated pace are um almost unavoidable logical consequences of what's been happening over the last few months, right? So I would say that unlike the uh dot-com boom, uh all of this like AI developments have actually brought something interesting to the markets, and that's financial pressure for uh results right now, short-term results, right? And um, for example, in the venture capital markets in like series A, series B, series C uh markets as well, um it doesn't matter if you're able to tell a very good story. What mark what matters uh today is that you're able to show a lot of traction on revenue, right? Which is different from what was, for example, in the intranet boom. And one could argue that that's good. It's good because the only thing that matters now is results, financial results. Something similar is happening in crypto, right? Uh crypto investors are trying to reason more thoroughly or in a more disciplined way about how to reason through like token valuations, for example, right? As uh potential revenue multiples on the output that protocols create. So um I do think that um sure there's a lot of hype, but the hype is very well grounded on, and the you know, transformation that we're seeing in the industry is very, very big. And so, and to your second question, right? Like, is there like a first mover advantage? Um I think AI does indeed disrupt some of that thinking, right? And it does it because right now the speed of development that AI brings to teams allows teams to be more competitive, but it also raises competition. And so while you may have a first mover advantage, um if you're unable to reach uh or to build a very defensible mode, um someone else could come and disrupt you, right? So what that means is that um smaller teams um have uh higher capabilities to be the disruptor, and larger teams have greater risk of being the disrupted, right? Um and that's good for small teams, but it's also not great, right? Because if a small team becomes the disruptor, then the question is how do you defend it, right? How do you uh become uh or continue being the disruptor, right? And the answer to that is well innovation, right? You need to keep pushing the boundaries, you need to keep pushing different years. You cannot you know sleep and do nothing, right? You need to keep moving, constant, constant motion. And uh yeah, I mean we'll see, we'll see what happens, but uh that's the that's a world that we live in right now, and I think a lot of people on the markets are realizing, right? And hence why a lot of people are sort of like recalculating their best strategies uh going forward.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yep. Yeah, it makes sense. I I feel like that is the sentiment or the feeling around when you're talking to people is just everybody's kind of uh it's it's a time of rethinking. Like oh old models don't seem like they're gonna hold up, but um but the new models aren't yet fully cooked. So it's kind of like this interesting transition time. Um but I think uh yeah, that shared sentiment that that's that things are changing profoundly and it's happening right now is is interesting. So let's uh let's get back to Nexus focus here. Um and I think probably top of mind for everyone um in our community and beyond as they've been following our journey recently through the test nets and through um recent campaigns. And uh you know, we we announced a roadmap not too long ago. Um the the question probably top of mind is is when mainnet? Like when when is that happening or or what's that look like or or you know what what kinds of things need to be in place for us to launch a successful mainnet?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, so mainnet is our core soul focus right now and everything that will happen after that, right? And uh we just want to really, really focus on on that and building a great product. So as you all know, right, what's coming after that is uh the Nexus Exchange, the uh associated stable coin, and uh hopefully we'll see a lot of other interesting um AI developments, for instance, right? Um if not like AI tangential developments in the fields of payments, the fields of trading, right? And everything financially related, right? And so uh with all of this motion, right, like there's a lot of things happening in the outside world. Um, I think a company's core goal is and should be to focus on building a product and just constantly improving it at the fastest iterative speed possible, right? So it's like constant improvement, improvement, improvement, improvement, improvement, improvement. And we want to make it so that the company uh remains focused on that, right? As opposed to getting distracted around like market forces and so on and so forth, right? Um, so uh yes, so Mainnet coming um coming uh uh right next, next to what we're doing. And uh yeah, for now we can't uh share a particular timeline, but all that we can share is we have the whole team working on it. And um hopefully it will be exciting for the community to participate on it and everything that will happen after.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Cool. And um, you know, since we're sort of in this reflection mode today um on all the things we've been talking about, you know, 317 and uh kind of where we are with Nexus, thinking through all these big uh you know, forces happening right now, both in technology and uh geopolitically and macro the macroeconomic scene. Um in that kind of reflective mode or spirit, um I'm kind of curious what you're thinking about are the biggest um challenges and opportunities of building Nexus right now. Um obviously if I asked you that question maybe a year ago, you would have a different answer. If I ask you in a year from now, likely you'll have a different answer because we are dealing with these changing conditions. But um I'm kind of curious, like, you know, what's the latest going on for you? What do you what do you think are the biggest challenges and opportunities that we're facing? You know, I'll let you kind of figure out the time frame if that's like near-term or long term, but um what's what's top of mind for you?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yes. So um um challenges and opportunities. I would say we are living in one of the greatest opportunities uh, I think in history to experience and to go through the technological revolution that's happening, as well as a very, very positive regulatory environment for crypto companies. So that's great. And like we are in Silicon Valley, the center of everything happening in a country that really supports what we're doing. So that's really, really good. We're seeing um uh AI agents such as OpenClaw spawn up and suddenly start doing a lot of stablecoin transactions across the internet, right? For example, you have the founders of Stripe commenting that we will need blockchains that have a billion to I think like they said like a trillion in TPS, right? Which has always sort of like been the uh thesis behind building you know greater and more powerful parallelizable blockchains as well. And um uh as well as greater stablecoin adoption by all the major financial companies, right? So uh I think like the the greatest opportunity right now is building uh helping build the financial um infrastructure for the upcoming agent uh driven world, right? And it is even crazy to think that that's yeah you know a thing right now. Right. Uh but it is it is already uh in front of us and it's uh gonna continue improving at a massive pace. And so what this means for all types of companies is, for instance, both in crypto and outside of crypto, is um when you design a product, you know you cannot only just assign for humans to sign up for your product, you need to also design for agents to sign up for your product autonomously and with the least friction that you can provide, right? And so um we're very excited about that. We think there's a lot of opportunities to build financial tools for agents and for uh users utilizing uh autonomous um intelligence, right? With respect to challenges, I would say that one of the greatest challenges, but also an opportunity, is to uh step up as a company and become significantly more uh autonomous as well. So, for example, in the old way of thinking about how to build a product, you would have engineers uh being assigned tickets, uh, and then you know those tickets would be um resolved and the product would improve. Right now we're going through an industry-wide reevaluation of how the software engineering practice itself should be carried out. Um, for instance, it is now conceivable that the best way to build a product that continuously improve is not actually building the product, but instead building the uh AI infrastructure that can then itself build a product in an iterative loop. So, for example, if you have a product out there, um in the past you would have an actual human who would do quality assurance testing, right? So they would play with the product, they would see where it's not working well, they would file a ticket, and then the ticket would get assigned to an engineer, the engineer would fix it, and then there's this loop. Right now, one is able to automate uh quality testing uh by having agents literally try out the product, uh, identify differences from the specification and and and the goal, and then file a ticket autonomously. And uh I mean right now an agent is not fully able to uh uh without supervision complete uh you know a whole ticket. Um, um, but it's getting there at a very fast pace. And so uh Yes, I would say that one of the greatest challenges and opportunities for any company is how to build um a highly efficient software uh production system in the in the new world where humans that are part of that company uh extend their leverage by about 10x, right? Their productivity by about 10x.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. Yeah, certainly it would be interesting to to watch those developments unfold and um yeah, and and watch this wave of uh I mean we've been talking about AI broadly, but just uh I mean you were kind of getting a little bit more into the weeds on um agentic um finance or agentic commerce and and how that changes everything. And when you were talking about that, I was kind of thinking about like an AI, my AI agent like filing a support ticket to another AI agent and just like what that whole process looks like. But really, that is kind of um you know where we're headed with all this, which will will will be interesting. Um and I'm glad we we kind of have a front row seat here at Nexus to to build some of that technology and kind of watch that unfold um, you know, as in real time.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Um hopefully the community as well, right? Uh you know, by being part of the of the project they have uh first uh row sit on to how all of this develops.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's a good uh a good place to wrap today. I just wanted to see if there's any anything else you you wanted to add um as we kind of conclude today's episode and um any other top of mind thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, I would say um it is important to um keep focused and uh keep uh and and and and be positive right about the set of developments, right? We one can always take a look at you know AI and you know have some type of like existential existential uh questions, right? Right. Well the truth is this technology is transformative and hopefully it will um significantly improve uh products uh throughout the industry and the capabilities of all humans, all humans alike. And uh lastly, I would say um yeah, we should consider um all of us perhaps lucky to be able to, you know, be able to witness something like this.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah. Yeah, I think the the positive spin I like to think about it is um, you know, the thing that separates uh or makes humans so special, I think, or the human intelligence is our ability to create and be creative and and think of things and and build things that have not existed before. Um And so rather than looking at this pessimistically, I really think that um, you know, I I I hope, I guess, that the AI boom is like in service of that human ingenuity and creativity. Um and um people who have ideas and want to see things exist in the world will now have the tools. It won't be a matter of resources anymore. It'll be like, okay, I have a I have an idea for you know whether it's a new kind of company or whether it's a new book that uh you know hasn't existed yet. Um so anyway, I think it's important to stay uh stay positive, like you say, and just kind of um think about the the upside here and and also you know be mindful of of how things are changing and and stay in the loop. But um but yeah, hopeful, hopefully this is after all a human-centered technology, but we we shall see.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Totally agree. Totally agree. All right, thank you, Daniel.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, thank you. It's great talking to you, great catching up. I'll I'll talk to you again soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of Exponential. We'll be back next week with another show featuring people, code, and capital. Please like, review, and share exponential wherever you listen to your podcast. And be sure to visit app.nexus.xyz to see what we are building.