Sight N' Vision: Fraud Survival - Protecting Yourself from Scams

Karen Morgan, Esquire and Executive Council member of AARP Maryland, joins Sight and Vision to discuss the growing threat of scams and fraud. From romance scams and bank impersonators to porch pirates and check washing, this episode offers practical strategies to help protect your finances and your peace of mind.

Karen Morgan, Esquire – Guest; Executive Council Member, AARP Maryland; Member, AARP Chapter 939

Renee – Host

Reverend Radio Ray Razor – Host

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a RazorEdge Production, Sight and Vision, Disability, and Senior Talk Radio Show, heard on the Wash Ear Radio Hour every day at 5 o'clock p.m. Scams, Shams, Fraud. Oh my! Dorothy, we are no longer in Kansas. Our opening might be a little tongue-in-cheek, but the reality of scams and fraud are real. Today's show is about protecting yourself and your money from scam calls, texts, emails, and more. And our guest is Karen Morgan Esquire, who serves on the Executive Council of AARP, Maryland. Welcome. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate being here. Well, you know what? I want our audience to know this is our first day of inclement weather. It's snowing and raining and ugly, and I was so concerned that our guest wasn't going to make it, but she did. She pressed forward, and I'm so happy to have you here in our guest seat. Um, Karen, let's acquaint our listeners with what is AARP of Maryland?

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Okay, ARP Maryland, it's part of the AARP National Organization. AARP Maryland is the state office, and we are involved in nonprofit activities, outreach to the community, service to the community. We focus not only on frauds and scams, but also on brain health, livability, um aging well, being able to age in place, Social Security, Medicare, all kinds of things that relate to just being able to get older in America with dignity. And the other thing I should mention is that there are chapters that were created under AARP some years ago. Those chapters still operate, and I'm a proud member of Chapter 939. That that chapter is based in Suitland, Maryland. Um, but that chapter is also involved in service outreach, book book bag drives or food drives, um, as well as trips and things that are fun for for their members. So um it's courtesy of 939 that I'm here today.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Well, I I love that I make growing older in America with dignity, and I think that that is so important. If you've ever, if uh our listeners have ever read the history, that originally someone had gone to meet a former school teacher and found out she was living in a chicken coop. And um, and she just said, this is unacceptable and began sort of moving AARP forward um from that. Yep. Um are there requirements to join a local group?

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Um, you have to be a member of AARP National, and that there's there's a in my opinion, relatively modest membership, $15, $16 a year or something like that. You have to be a member of AARP and then you can join the chapter.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Okay. Well, I want to get that in because we actually do a little promo for AARP each time we um have a guest on. Um so now we uh actually have somebody from AARP uh 939. We gotta make the difference, AARP Maryland 939. So um we will invite our listeners to join 939 at our half point at our half point. Um now one of the issues facing older adults are fraud scams. Why is our AARP focusing on this issue?

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Because we've learned over the years that attacks on our finances by way of fraud really get at the heart of our ability to survive. It's act it actually becomes a matter of survival. What if you're like 75 or 80 years old and say you have several hundred thousand dollars in a retirement account that some crook has come along and just taken? How are you supposed to make that back? It's what if you're dealing with health issues? You the getting back into the workplace is not really an option. How are you supposed to make that money up? There's not any really good ways, and so it really can become a matter of life or death. I've started referring to frauds and scams as like financial assault or financial homicide, because that's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yes, it's uh Well, we're gonna we're gonna look at some very specific ones. Oops, wrong number texts. Now, many of us believe it's common courtesy to let someone know that they have reached the wrong party. How is this a gateway to a scam?

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Oh my goodness, it really is. And some of the text could just be something as simple as hi. And then you text back hi, and then somehow you get you get lulled into a conversation. So this it becomes a gateway because that simple hi or oh, I thought I was dialing Jim, but I dialed you. Well, gee, you sound nice, and before you know it, you're they're looking for personal identifying information. They're looking for anything that they can get from you that will verify that you're a human and that you can be tapped for additional resources. Maybe they can get a bank account number from you, or maybe they can convince you to invest in crypto, or to do something else, to maybe buy a product and you divulge this information in that process, or they just get you to give up information about your family, about your life, which they can then use against you. Maybe they convince you to send a picture of the kids, or and then they, you know, so they're they are these predators looking for anything they can do to get a wedge and to get to infiltrate your financial life.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

So someone texts someone and says hi or hello. Rather than being courteous, do we ignore it unless we know who it is? Absolutely. It's time to get rude. Before we started, we were talking about, you know, um the era in which we grew up and that and you're you're you're nice to people and you're generous, but that but we can't do that and protect ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

We cannot. We really we have to you know we talk about self-care, that's that's a thing now, that's a meme, right? Well, self-care involves not having your time wasted by people you don't even know. And you need to be able to say, you're a waste of time, goodbye. Or not even goodbye, just click. Or I'm not engaging, I don't have time for you. I have time for my family and friends. I don't have time for you, a stranger.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, you know, one of the problems we have here is we we teach blind and low vision um people how to use their cell phones. And one of the things I am going to emphasize to our trainer is that he showed them how to block numbers. Yes, because it's a recurring, yeah, it's a recurring problem. I mean, once they think that they have you on the hook, they don't stop calling. And as you said, the the the questions are innocuous. How are you? Oh, you know, you're uh oh, you live alone. Yeah, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Yes, you I do too. You you lost to your spouse. Oh, I know exactly how that feels. But you know, before my spouse left, he told me about this crypto opportunity, and that's why I'm financially secure today. And the before you know it, you're off to the races.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Oh my goodness. I mean, you know, using all the niceties that we've been taught all of our lives. Wow. So that's how it happens. We just you're just drawn in.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

You get drawn, and people, people are people are lonely.

unknown 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Let me just say for the record, loneliness is not a symptom of age. I mean, people, that's the stereotype, but people can be lonely at any age. You know, I mean, you can lose the spouse as a young person or go through a divorce or a breakup or whatever. Doesn't it's not an age thing, it's a human thing, and it's an emotion thing. And these crooks are finding ways to weaponize that against us. So they'll say they'll say anything to create like a common bond. And then you're, you know, because you're feeling alone or isolated, or you or maybe your family isn't getting in touch with you the way they should. So then you start telling them so many things about your life. I can't believe I'm telling you all this. I never say these things. Even though you're a stranger, you're so easy to talk to, and before you know, you're divulging all of this information.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Wow. You know, and it's a reminder for those of us who think we're a little bit savvy, um, that you can get drawn in. Just like you said, when you said, I can't believe I'm sharing all this with you. And a friend of mine describes herself as an oversharer. She said she always gives out too much information. But in light of this, I'm gonna say you need to be mindful because she's just a very friendly, open person. But if there's somebody who has sinister motives, they are making note of all the things that you're saying. You live alone, um, you don't have family nearby, all of these things that we think are pretty innocent, they're clocking them. Okay, okay, I know this, I know this, I know this. Wow. You know, I always think of Mother Teresa when you talk about lonely. She said, of all the diseases that she has tackled, the one most challenging was loneliness. Because there's not a pill, there's not a remedy other than getting out, putting yourself out there and being in community, authentic community, like an AARP group or a church group or something like that. But we can um end up being pretty isolated if we don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Um here here's the other thing I want to say, Renee, too. When people retire, and I learned this just personally, when people retire, they don't understand, it's so popular to say, oh, I don't, I can't wait to retire. I I you know, work is such a you know, it's such a drag. Oh my boss this, my you know, my co-workers that. But people don't understand how critical work is to creating structure in your life. When you when you have a job to go to, there's an in-bolt-built community of people that you must associate with, either because of duties or because you, or maybe because you want to. Um, but they're but they're there. And and you know, you have duties, and maybe you don't like all the duties, but somebody wants you to be somewhere for a certain amount of time, eight hours, ten hours, whatever it is. When that just falls away, even if you think you're pretty active and pretty proactive about creating structure, that leaves a huge hole. And it's work to not be lonely. I don't care what age you are, it takes work to make keep up social connections, to watch your finances, to take care of the kids and the and the relatives. If what if you're a caretaker, that takes a huge amount of time out of your schedule, maybe it takes finances too. All of that. Um, but work, it's like wow, uh these are things you don't have to do if you have a job. You don't have to worry. You you have social, you have things to do. Time is time of your day is taken up. And when you don't have that job anymore, you have to fill that time, you have to figure out what to to what to do in those hours. And eight hours can get to be pretty long.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

You're absolutely right. I just spoke with a friend the other day, and I was saying uh she lives in a small community, and there are not a lot of social activities. She she specifically mentioned this. She said, it's hard to meet somebody because um she's not active in a faith community. So, you know, that would be one way, and and she's really struggling. She's really struggling, and and and we were talking about volunteer opportunities. Well, in larger cities, we don't think about um, I mean, there are so many opportunities. In smaller towns, you've got to be much more intentional in doing that. Um, the wash the Metropolitan Washington Ear um relies on volunteers. We have volunteer readers that come in, we have volunteers that do audio description at plays. Um so we have a lot of opportunity, and so our listeners have an opportunity to listen to the radio, but they also have an opportunity to go to theater and for somebody to be able to describe the non-dialogue aspects of a play, which is really great. Yeah. And so, you know, we are really we are really encouraging people to become a volunteer or or become a part of a community. But like you said, eight hours is a long time, day after day after day to fill. Uh, I want to move on to another scam that um there was in 19 in 2023 uh AARP put out the fraud survival guide. So I did a little homework, so I'm gonna go down to one of the ones, the bake, the bank impersonator racket. How does this work and how do we avoid that scam?

SPEAKER_03 13:39

The bank impersonator racket, oh my goodness, goodness, it can work in so many different ways. But generally what happens is that you get a text or or it may even be a call from your, supposedly from your bank, saying, There's a problem with your account. Call this number right away, or we detected fraudulent activity. If this wasn't you, then respond yes or no or one or two or something like that. Um and so that's uh and also log into your account. That'll be the other thing. Log into your account to check your activity right away. Usually people will just log in because they panic. They'll just log in through the text, they'll click the link, log in. Well, now the scammer has their login information.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Oh my goodness. I mean, I I am so overwhelmed listening to you. Like, how many times do we think that? I mean, we just assume that a person who calls us is up is is representing the bank. Oh gosh, well, we're up against a break. We're gonna take a quick break here, and when we come back, we are gonna be further depressed by thinking of all those things that we have to be mindful of. I mean, I I say that tongue in cheek, but it is a real challenge to be on top of this. I mean, we have enough things we have to do, and now we've got to outthink uh uh a predator, basically. Mr. Predator. Um, this is the Washier Radio Hour, the local voice of the blind, low vision, and print disabled. We are heard here every day at 5 o'clock p.m. Eastern Standard Time. This week's show is about fraud survival, and our special guest is Karen Morgan Esquire, who serves on the Executive Council of AARP Maryland, and she's also a member of AARP 939, located in Prince George's County. So we get a call from the bank. What should we do?

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Well, my suggestion would be to hang up. Don't even engage the call. Don't in don't click on anything in the text, don't respond to the text, divulge nothing. Simply disengage. Go to your the customer service number on the bank on the back of your debit card or on the back of your charge card, call that number, check your account that way, or log into your bank account online, making sure that you're logging into that, correct? Don't I mean a three can be an E uh or a five or something like that. So make sure you, when you type in the web app dress yourself, make sure you're there are no typos. Check it 20 times if you have to to make sure, and then log into your account that way. And 99 times out of a hundred, you'll find out there's absolutely nothing wrong. That was a crook trying to steal your money.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

You know, and I never thought about like where that number would be, would be on the back of my debit card or my credit card. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

And you don't want to use caller ID either. You don't want to use caller ID, you don't want to Google the number because the fake numbers can populate and get to the top of search results, or they could be represented as sponsored links. And and again, they get to the top because of advice that the criminals make.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Wow. And you know, here again, we're talking about persons who are 50 and over and to become a member of AARP. And so some of us, uh a good chunk of us, are baby boomers, and we didn't grow up immersed in technology. And so this is new. And the fact that we're using uh a cell phone, everybody I know has a cell phone now. Um, and so we get these texts, we get uh uh emails. You know, we finally get on, uh we we finally have an email account, and now you're telling me I've got to be super vigilant, hyper-vigilant against somebody coming on and telling me, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Well, here's something else that might rocky roll a little bit, Renee. It's that what I've been telling people when I do presentations in different areas around the state is that contrary to popular opinion, being online does not mean that we are more efficient. It does not make things happen faster, it actually makes things happen slower. Because you have to slow down to verify, verify, and verify again any and everything that's happening to stay safe, and even that's not a guarantee, but at least it's it's a hedge against somebody taking advantage of you. And the example I often use is when you go to the store. If I go into like my favorite clothing store, I want a pair of black pants. I see the pair of black pants, I buy it, I'm on my way. I don't have to worry about are these actual black pants? Were they really black? Um, do they fit? Um, no. And I they accept my charge card and I'm on my way. If I'm doing this online, did I actually get the right store? I said I want it black. Did they get the message? Um, they said they were shipping it. Did they really ship it? Did I really get it? Did they use my charge card? Was it a fake charge? I mean, just all of these, this whole set of conversations that you need to have to stay safe online that you don't need to have if you're doing in-person transactions. That's why things take longer online.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Well, you know, I'm so glad you said that because as I was reading the survival guide, what you noticed, this was issued in 2023. I kept it because I knew the information was so important. They um the the survival guide talks about the out-of-stock item scam. If it's too good to be true price, um, it probably is. That they will take your money and then it will always be out of stock and you will never get a refund.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

We're sending that, we're sending that package. Look, look for that tracking number someday.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Wow. That, you know, I mean, I just I'm I'm just overwhelmed at how many ways, you know, there was a time that I think we thought we could identify uh unsavory characters. You know, they they looked shady, they wore dark clothes, uh maybe sunglasses on a cloudy day or something. And now you're saying not only we don't see them, they have beautiful voices. They call, hey, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Well the robot makes sure they're beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yes. I mean, it's it's it's it's disconcerting in one in one part, but I'm so glad that people like you are raising our awareness and saying, listen, pay attention, because otherwise you will be separated from your money and your nest aid. And I think that is so important. There is never a good time to lose money, but if you are well into your retirement, the last thing you want to do is to lose your nest aid.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

And you know, you I mean, I've seen documentaries where people people have had that happen to them, and it breaks your heart when they say things like, Well, I planned on retiring in in a year or two, but now I I think I'm gonna have to work for the for the rest of my life because there there isn't it the that's the only way that I I'm gonna have to go and ask for my job back. Or and which is the last thing that you want to do, especially as you get older, you want to spend time with family and friends, you want to do the things, and you you earned the right to retire. You did the work, you know. So this is, you know, and I just it's just burns my corn cobs or something like that. When when you do all of this work, you try to set, you do everything you can to set yourself up for success, and some criminal comes along and says, Oh, I'm so glad you did all that work. I'm taking that now.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, you're you're yeah, yes, I I I I I hear you, and you're right. I mean, there's there should be a special place in hell for those people. But anyway, I will move along. One of the um scams that was surprising to me was um the championship uh um ball game. Your grandchild is playing in the championship game, and it's a little cold, so you just sit through three. Quarter, so you opt to live stream it. Now, Karen, how do scammers take something so innocent and create a fraud with getting a live stream coming into your home?

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Well, if this is being live streamed through social media, they can acquire a clip, you only need a few seconds, of the child's voice to use that in artificial intelligence in a grandparent scam, for example. Um they can um by looking at a video, then they can figure out more things about your personal life and use and use that against you. Um so that's but usually what comes to mind immediately is just you know clips or just sort of visuals that can be co-opted, and with artificial intelligence you can make it seem very real. Um, like you can create a zoom, a zoom link with um with a video feed that you think is populated by people you know, except that it's not, it's all fake. You know, um that's happened to I don't hear about that happening to individuals, but in businesses, that has definitely happened. I I read about a company um overseas, the person, uh one of the financial officers thought he was supposed to cut a check for millions of dollars, like 25 million dollars. And he entered a Zoom meeting, all the CEOs were there, or all the officers were there, and he cut the check and sent it off. The whole meeting was fake. Not one person, no, none of the the CEO had never contacted this person, nothing was ever said, but because their network had been infiltrated, the crook was able to create this Zoom room with visuals of all these people saying what he wanted them to say and moving around like actual humans. None of them were human, it was all fake. And that crook got millions of dollars from that company.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

You know, I I I feel like going to my bed and pulling my covers up over my head. Yes. Because I don't know. Right. I wouldn't know what was real, what isn't real. AI, AI, the artificial intelligence, can imitate your voice. Uh, my granddaughter sent me a note yesterday. She was writing a paper for school, and apparently, uh she's in college, and apparently AI was checking the work, and she had put the word in a man-made something, and they said, You may want to reconsider that word, man-made. And she was like, but but what should I call it then? You know, like human-made? I mean, but but she was just frustrated that something as innocuous as describing a man-made item as a fo as opposed to something in nature. They're questioning that, but AI was checking her paper, was doing the work.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Yes, well, A, I've got issues with AI. Like my big pet peeve is when I encounter a robot, and the robot's like, I would like to help you. What do you need for me? I'm like, you're not a me, you're not an I, you're not a we, you're an it. So stop referring to yourself as a person. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Now, see, yeah, here again.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

I say that to the phone all the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Well, you know, I think we we sort of drift into acceptance because it's step by step by step. Um, right now, I know that um some of the major um uh houses that are that are fulfilling orders are using robots. Okay, I understand that. But I had placed an order for something, and they asked me at the bottom, do you want to tip our workers? And I thought it was such an affront to me. Tip the robot? Give me a break. I mean, I know it's a little off subject, but the thing of it is so many of them are using um um robots now to fulfill. But that's what they asked me. Did I want to tip the staff? And I said, but they're using robots. What are you the robot staff?

SPEAKER_04 26:17

Anyway, yeah, weren't they gonna go to the robot store and buy some robot clothes with the robot tip? Well, what the heck is the robot gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Well, you know, I actually had uh this is a little off-centric, but but it has to do. There was a place that I was frequenting, and uh I'd gone in and they had new signage up, and the signage said, if you get three or more services, you must tip the staff. Must. Must. I stopped going.

unknown 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

And then I was in a predicament and I needed to go to that one because it was closer by. And the lady said, We took it down. Enough people like you complained. I had to let them know. Must. You must. I said, no, then you need to rework your pricing structure. That's that's what the issue is. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah, because I hear, here, I'm glad you did that.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

That's craziness. Yeah, it is. Um, what are porch pirates and how do we protect ourselves from them?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Oh, let me count the ways. What are porch pirates?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Well, they're pirates, which makes them criminals, and they have the effrontery to come and just take things off of your porch. Um, packages that are that are might be left there. Um, they will take them off of your porch and you know, do whatever it is that they want with them. So that's a problem. I mean, ARP recently did a survey, and in urban areas, like over 40% of Americans reported being victimized by a porch pirate. Uh so I mean, literally, they just come and take the packages and and make off with them. And they don't know what's in the package, they don't care. Yeah, it might be something that they can sell, or it might be something that they can give away, or it might be part of like a huge network of things that they're that they're doing. A lot of fraud, and here's another point that I want to make, Renee, is that a lot of what seem to be like petty crimes or relatively minor, oh, somebody took my my package, it's not the end of the world. Well, it could be part of like a huge organized theft network. They exist and not just here, but overseas, and the tentacles cross the ocean. So, what may be an innocuous, oh crap, they stole my package, could be part of like a huge network of crime operating in our area. That's why it's so important that we report fraud when it when it happens. And the the the numbers are with the criminals, unfortunately, and against us. Criminals only need to be right once. We need to be right 100% of the time to always, to never be victimized by crime. So even if you are if even if you are victimized, you shouldn't be ashamed. It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. The criminals were wrong. The criminals need to be ashamed. The criminals are the drags and sociopaths and all the other crappy names that we can think of to call them. Um, but when we don't report these crimes, we give the criminals the pass. We act as if we're the responsible ones.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

And we are not. You know, that's yeah, that's a really good point because we recently it was it was funny, but it wasn't funny. We recently had a package that was stolen from our porch because my husband was expecting it, and my husband is blind, so he asked me, is there a package on the stoop? And I said no. And he said, Well, it was supposed to come today because he gets notified. They actually stole a box of bathroom tissue. So we did, we thought it was appropriate that day. That day that they did that. Yeah, so have fun with that. But we never I never even thought about reporting it, thinking, like, how am I gonna report a package? And I've got to the point now I won't send it unless I know somebody's gonna be home that who can receive it. Well, that little sound reminds us that we must take a station break. So this is the Washier Radio Hour, the local voice of the blind, low vision, and print disabled. We are heard here every day at 5 o'clock P.M. Eastern Standard Time. Are you looking for an active older adult group that care about all of the issues facing older adults? Check out AARP No. The next meeting is Tuesday, the 3rd of December. Need more information? Email them at AARP, number nine AARP939 at yahoo.com. AARP 939 at yahoo.com. I I thought it was funny because we do our promo for the AARP because it's a really great organization. And again, when we talk about people who have left left the workforce and have more hours than they do activities, it is a great place to start. I I one of the things that I love about AARP number 939 is that the meeting starts at 12 o'clock and the parking lot is full at 11:30. People are ready to come in to socialize, um, and you really just have to experience it. You have to experience 939. And but this is just one of the many things that AARP does. Any service that you can think of that will impact an older adult, they have it covered, whether it's travel discounts, whether it is insurance discounts, um, the socializing is is is great, but there are just so many activities that uh really um work well for the older adult who wants an active older um community. Right. One of the things I want to talk about is meeting someone romantically has even been tainted by fraudsters using catfishing. Are older adults subject to this fraud? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

I mean, we all are I don't know about all of us, but those of us who are looking for romantic relationships, you're probably going to be looking online. I mean, and even if you have an active social life, even your friends aren't trying to introduce you to their friends anymore. They're telling you to go online. So you go online, and there's nothing wrong with that, but the criminals are out there and they're looking for multiple ways to get you to divulge information. And with the typical online scam, it couldn't, it could involve, it could involve catfishing.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Now, why don't we explain to our audience what catfishing is? Because I had to look it up. I had heard the term, but I couldn't say that I truly understood it. So explain catfishing.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Well, I'm not sure that I understand the entirety of it, except that to me, that's when you set up this romantic relationship with the idea of finding ways to deceive them, finding ways either with another relationship or with money or just all kinds of things, but you're you're basically you're not being truthful at all.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

No, I mean you no, you have the exact definition, and I looked up the origin of catfishing. Apparently, when a fishermen were were selling cod, they would put a catfish in there. I guess it kept the cod active or something, avoiding them. And so that's where the term came from. It's an interesting etymology, yeah. But um, they use it. But you talked about looking for love in all the wrong places, and you brushed over a little bit of the money aspect. How does this seeking just companionship, how does it become a money thing?

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Okay, well, here's the thing online romantic stink scams are taking the form of what we call the long con. And the long con means that the that the criminal is tries to establish a relationship with you, and it could take weeks, months, or even years. But they want you to be so invested in that relationship and so trusting of them that when they do finally make the request, like the request doesn't come right away. The request may come a few months from now when you're in your mind, you're planning the wedding, you're buying the house, all these things about how you're gonna be with your boo, blah blah blah. And um, and and then they say, Oh, gee, this horrible accident happened. My cat, you know, fell off a tree in the middle of Afghanistan, and I don't know how to get that cat surgery. I need money from you. You know, um, and then when you say, Well, I don't know about that, you're that that the response is, how dare you? You said you love me. I love you. If if if the rules were reversed, I would do the same for you. You know, how could you say no to me and then you feel bad? I'm like, oh well, of course, I mean, I will have to mortgage my house, but I guess if the cat really needs the surgery, I'll I'll just go ahead and do that. You know, because I love you. You know, so to me, like the online romance scam is particularly pernicious, and because of the long con, you you end up trusting that person. You may trust them more than your family members who are going, I don't think this something about this doesn't sound or look right. You know, uh I did a reverse lookup, and that's not really their picture. He or she is like 50 times uglier than that picture they sent you, I believe. But you know, you but you don't you don't want to believe that. And they're asking you for money, but that's why are you saying them money? Because I love them, because they love me, and we're planning a life together, and what's mine is his or what's mine is hers anyway. Might as well start sharing now. And even when law enforcement or family and friends come in and say, This is fraud, like, no, it's not. No, it's not, because I never I wouldn't I'm way too smart to get suckered into this. It's not fraud. And I my intuition would tell me no, it won't, because it's a computer screen. Your intuition took the last train for the coast in the age of computers. Right, you know, it really did. It doesn't, it intuition's a powerful tool, but in person. So that's why it's so difficult to deal with the online romance scams, and and people have to release the idea that it's about how smart they are, that it's about how sophisticated or knowledgeable they are. It's none of that. It's about how vulnerable you are, how emotional you are. And since we all have emotions, we are all subject to scams, romance scams, all the other scams. The difference between the online romance scam and say, like the typical, you know, sort of bank scam where your account's being emptied as we speak, you better pay this fee to get the the online romance scam for demand that demand for money could take far longer, far longer into the future. Whereas with most scams, the idea is to get money, demand money immediately, and for you to respond immediately.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, you called it the long con, uh because con is just short for confidence, long confidence. Uh a woman uh was recently sharing that that's what had happened to her, and she she inadvertently shared with her grandchildren that um she had this online uh relationship, and they said, Grandma, I that's inside right. She said, No, he's wonderful and he's this, and because they are so savvy with technology, they um went back and traced it all the way back. He allegedly was on an assignment in France. They said that's a number one thing, he's not nearby, so you know you can't do that, and he's working there, and um, they had planned to get together, but he had some disaster, like the cat dying or getting sick, and he couldn't come. And he really wanted to, but he had spent all the money on this emergency. Could she forward him some money and he'd be glad to give it to her when he arrived? And so the granddaughters did it, and she said she was very embarrassed that she could be so gullible, and um, and but it saved her a lot, and so she said she was offline dating for a long time, and then the next time she went on, she was, you know, felt like she was much savbier. And um, but but after just a little ways into that relationship, she figured out it was a scam, too. And finally, the third one was the charm. She actually has met somebody and they will be married.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Oh my goodness. Um, yes. And will he actually be in person at the wedding?

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Right, right. This will not be a Zoom.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

This will be a good one. Because if the wedding's happening by Zoom, that's another red flag.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

But you know, the thing of it is she was very fortunate that her granddaughters were savvy enough and cared enough, and that she because she did not involve them, it was an inadvertent way that they learned. But there apparently are signs, and so it's important if if you have not met this person in real time, in a real place, and they're far away, that's that's the sign. They and they were really useful. I mean, she she acknowledges this in sharing that story.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

But it helped that she listened to them. Absolutely, that she was not so far in the river of the Nile that she ignored what they said. No. Um and there are other red flags too. I mean, and and I guess I want to say, Renee, to our audience that there there isn't anything wrong with looking for love online. That's how most people find relationships these days. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that, like you said, the criminals have made it a point to ruin it. So they're just things that we need to be very mindful of, things that we can do to protect ourselves. For one, um, if the person that you're talking to wants to get off of the platform, like say it's Facebook or Match.com or whatever it is, like a nationally known platform. They want you off of that platform right away. That's a red flag. Because these platforms, they don't, they don't have the best guardrails in the world, but they have some guardrails that create fraud, alert to fraud indications, or whatever. You take your conversation private and those guardrails are gone.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

So wow, I didn't even I hadn't even thought about that.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Oh, so they ask you to come off of the site and let's go to an encrypted channel, like a private, did just you and me. Wow. Off of this social platform. So so that's you know, so that's a red flag. There's another thing that's a huge red flag, and we call it love bombing. Love bombing is when you've just met this person and they just start showering you with compliments. You're so beautiful, you're so handsome, you're amazing. I had no idea you had 12 doctorates. You're just, you know, you won them Nobel Prize. Well, you should have by now, and you blah blah blah blah. Love bombing. All the compliments in the world. It's like, okay, although you would like to think that you are fabulous, and maybe you are, how does that person know you're fabulous? They don't. They are snowing, they're they are trying to again lull you into this false sense of trust because you think they realize how amazing you are, and that's why you're in a relationship with them. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are playbooks that scammers have developed. Oh. Yes, I kid you not, a script that starts like kind of impersonal, then it moves into more and more personal topics of conversation, into intimate topics of conversation, including sex talk. That's all part of the scam. I kid you not, Renee.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

A playbook. I'm sorry, I'm I'm and there was a word you were about to use, and then you sort of retreated from it. It's a snow job. I mean, we're all old enough to know that we knew what a snow job was, but here it is uh at this uh, and that's what it was. We can relate to that if we hear language that we're familiar with. Catfishing may be unfamiliar to us, or as you said, the the love bombing. I hadn't heard that term before. But a snow job, most of us uh recognize that for what it is. Well, listen, I need a break. Uh whether whether we really are called to do one right now. I just need to take a breather. But we this is the wash here radio hour, the local voice of the blind, low vision, and print disabled. We are heard here every day at 5 o'clock p.m. Eastern Standard Time. Um, you know, I don't I don't want this. To all be doom and gloom, but there are some things that we can protect ourselves, and I think you've given us some um some ideas of what we need to do if we get a phone call, or if somebody all of a sudden finds us the most fascinating person uh in the world. What what's didn't he do a uh a commercial of the most fascinating man in the world? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Of course, that commercial bore the crap out of me, but but yes, yes, he he he paints, he swims, he dives, he, you know, and but I think that, you know, with a little bit of humor, we are saying, hey, pay attention.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. So I'm I'm gonna examine a couple things that we can do. Um, we talked about porch pirates, but we get these packages and then we throw all the we recycle, we don't throw it out, we recycle the cardboard and all of that. Um shredding. Should we be shredding anything that identifies us from the outside of our packaging?

SPEAKER_03 45:00

Absolutely, and or you can get a stamp that that totally covers up you know, I I use stamps and shredding, but I I have a micro cross-cut shredder, um, really good ones, cost somewhere between $100 and $150. Best investment I've ever made. So I shred that stuff. You can take your documents to shredding events, but I don't want to wait for that, they don't happen often enough. I want to shred on a daily basis, or I use stamps, but I blot out my address on anything that comes, no matter where it comes from. I blot out my address and my name. Um, and here's the other thing that listeners might want to be aware of. When they get these, particularly um, you know, like unsolicited offers in the mail, a lot of times there'll be QR codes in that mail that embed all of the personal information that you so unless you're shredding it, if you're using a stamp, you want to make sure that you stamp over that QR code too. You don't want, you know, you don't want somebody picking that up.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Wow, I had never heard that. I didn't get that far reading in the group. I may have to read the guide again.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Well, I don't know if that's in the 2023 guide.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

But that QR code, and for again, because our our listeners are blind and no vision, a QR code is a square and it has all these squiggly lines in it, and we with uh with just being able to see it, we don't know that information is embedded in that. We do that. And so if somewhat oftentimes we have people who are reading our mail, and even if we are using um irreglasses, irreglasses allow people to be independent and read their own mail, I don't know that any of us have ever talked about the QR code and that we need to block it out. Yeah. Well, I'm investing in a rubber stamp. I had not, I usually use a blackout marker, but a stamp, I I am going to invest in that. Because even junk mail, I mean, should we be, should we be um especially junk mail.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Especially junk mail. Yeah, and like there, there are these things called like ID stamps. They're they're specially formulated stamps when you roll over whatever you're rolling over, you can't see, you can't hold the envelope to the light and see what you rolled over with a marker. You might be able to hold it up to the light and see.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I have a really no, I I specifically got a no, because you're right about some of the smaller ones. So I have one that you know you really can't see. Um, and I didn't even really know that it was um such a uh a thing that I needed to be aware of, but I just I just sort of uh did it because I'm private and um I just oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

But shredding is also your friend, so I would definitely encourage your your listeners, everybody who listens to this program to invest in a shredder. It's a great I mean it may cost a little bit of money up front, but it could save you so much time and aggravation on the back end, time that you'll never get back when you're trying to piece your life back together because some crook went dumpster diving and got all your personal because they're doing they're still doing that too. It's not like they stopped dumpster diving, they're still doing that.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Well, I used the shredder, but I was thinking junk mail wasn't a big deal, so I just black it out. But now with the QR codes and all of that stuff, you're really making me rethink it. And I just just want to say when you're looking for a uh a shredder, mine is on wheels, and I really appreciate that because when I do my mail, I'm I'm not a really good paper manager, um, I do it all at one time, so you know I can sit there and roll it out of the way when I'm not using it and roll it back over um over when I do need it. Exactly. Um I'm the same way, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's worth the extra investment. Uh, don't go cheap on it. Go go ahead and get the cross cut. Micro cross-cut. The micro cross-cut. Okay. Um credit card skimmers. Somebody I read about this not long ago. Most many of us use debit cards and credit cards at the point of sale. And um I read this recently that there are credit card scammers on uh skimmers on there, and they can take your information. And so they were saying that it's much safer to tap. Have you heard have you heard anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 49:33

Yes, it is safer to tap. It's also safer to use um like a tap-to-pay service like Google Pay or Apple Pay, those are safer. Why? Because Google Pay and Apple Pay create what's called a token. So the merchant gets a token that represents valid credit card information so that you can be charged for the purchase. But the merchant doesn't get your personal information and they don't get the actual credit card number. They get a token that takes the place of that. So that's why tap to pay with Google and with Apple Pay, or just using your credit card, using your Visa card or MX or whatever, that tends to be safer. The other thing that's safer is using credit cards instead of debit cards. I have a debit card that I haven't used in literally years. I kid you not. I don't use it for anything. I don't even use it to get cash. I go to the bank and I just I just ask to get cash at the bank. I refuse to use an ATM machine. Um, but credit cards are generally safer than debit cards because credit cards are linked to not your money but the company's money, the bank's money or Amex or Visa's money. So if if say you you you go to the gas station and you put your card in the in the gas station pump and there's a skimmer attached. Well, your credit card might be charged, but it's really visas, it's really the credit card company's money that's at risk. They have lots of resources that they're going to employ to get that money back. Far more than you and I do. So that's why I don't use my debit card. If my debit card is caught up by a skimmer, that money comes out of my bank account immediately. And then I have to say, Mother, may I, to the bank to get my money back. Whereas with the credit card company, it's not my money, it's their money. And they're not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

And they will employ everything to get it back.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

Right. And they will issue you a provisional credit or whatever, and they'll do their investigation, but your bank account is not at risk under those circumstances. So I I use a credit card for everything, no matter how small the purchase, unless I just happen to use cash, and I don't even know what cash is anymore. I know. So, you know, but for any for anything, you know, it could be a $2 purchase. I'm using my credit card. My credit card is my financial shield for me.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Wow, that but here again, that's good information. I thought I was doing something because I have uh what I call my pass-through account, and I keep a small amount of money in my debit, uh, in a debit, but you're making me rethink that, and that's why we do this show so that we can give our listeners new information. Wow, I hadn't thought about that. Like I just started the tapping business recently. Um, because I felt like it was less safe. And when someone explained it to me, it was like, oh, it's safer than doing it the other way. Um, time waits for no man or woman, so we are near the end of our time, but I want to discover a couple more things. Um writing personal checks.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. Okay, I'm so glad you brought that up. I know people want to use checks. That and I think that's something we need to release the need to do in the 21st century. Checks are not your friend. Um, and and businesses don't help with this because they're starting to charge people for using credit cards, but they won't charge you if you write a check. I told a business person, a contractor that I was dealing with, if if you all were really on top of things, you would charge people for writing checks and mailing them to you. That would that would be the charge because if that if that check is stolen, you're gonna spend so much money and time trying to recover that money that you'll never have to deal with with a credit card. And of course they looked at me like I'd lost my mind, but anyway, that that would be my recommendation. But with personal checks, if you insist on writing them, and sometimes you do, or maybe the credit card charges are just too onerous, so you'd rather. But you make sure don't put it in the mail. Whatever you do, don't put it in the mail. I would say don't even go to the post office and drop it off in the mail because there have been rings of crooks working in the post office that steal checks. Go to the business. I, for example, I worked with a contractor, they were local, they wanted a check, and I'm like, okay, I'm driving to the office, I'm putting the check in your hand, and then I'm watching my bank account to make sure that the check was cashed, and then I'm looking at the images of the check to make sure that you, the business, was the one who endorsed the check. That's a lot of crap to go through just to pay somebody. It's like, wait a minute, I'm paying you and I still have to do all this work. But if I charged it, I would just charge it and not worry about it. But to me, limit limit or eliminate writing checks, period. If you must write a check, maybe try to use gel-based ink to write the check and don't use ballpoint ink because that is very easy to wash off of a check. We call it check washing. And all you need is nail polish remover. It's acetone. That's what washes the check. And then you can write in the amount that you want. Here's the other thing with personal checks, when you buy that stamp, blot out your your address if that's on the check. The only thing that should be on that check is your name. The days where we had the driver's license numbers and the phone numbers and the addresses on the checks, those days have gone with the wind. Don't leave that personal information on the check as if it's stolen. That that's something more that a crook can use to infiltrate your financial life.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

I don't know if I'm exhilarated or I'm depressed. There are just so many ways they want to separate me from my money.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

There are, but but we're not powerless. We have things that we can do. And one thing is to have empathy. We can we can have, we're all in this together. All of us honest people are in this together. And we it crosses political lines, it crosses geographical lines, all of that. Um we deserve to have the money that we work for. So if it does happen to somebody you know, don't shame them. Don't tell them how you can't believe they fell for that. Offer compassion because it could be you. It's not about how smart you are, it's about how emotional you are. That's why anybody can be subject to a scam.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

That is a great place to end our conversation. Have compassion. And I love that because people have fallen, and they're and and it's and and they're not people who are unsophisticated. These are people who have had some life experiences, and yet they still have fallen victim. Well, we want to thank you, Karen Morgan. Um, and you are serving on the Executive Council of Maryland and unpacking the AARP fraud survival guide for here at the Metropolitan Washington Ear. Uh, again, we really want to thank you for coming in in this bad weather. You came in spite of. So, again, we thank our listeners for listening to the Wash Ear Radio Hour, the local voice of the blind, low vision, and print disabled. Want to hear this show again or one of our past shows? Go to our website, washear.org.