Chasing Perfect: Why Perfectionism Drives Disordered Eating (and How to Heal) with Stephanie Huls

Perfection says you should already be there. Your body, your plate, your life—graded against a shifting standard that never names who is moving the goalposts. I invited therapist Stephanie Huls to help us untangle that trap and replace it with tools that actually help to rebuild our relationships with food.

We start by drawing a clean line between high standards and perfectionism. High standards align with values and allow growth; perfectionism is rigid, unforgiving, and fueled by "shoulds". When that mindset collides with diet culture’s changing rules—low carb, keto, high protein, “clean”—self-trust takes the hit. Together we examine the double standard many of us live by: kindness for others, criticism for ourselves. Stephanie shows how a trauma-informed lens reframes these patterns as once-useful strategies for safety, connection, and control. They worked then; they may be hurting now.

From there, we get practical. Stephanie breaks down CBT to map the loop between thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and shares how small cognitive shifts can open space for different choices at the table. Then we explore EMDR as a way to process “stuck” memories that keep the present fused to the past—like a childhood humiliation that still shapes what you order at dinner. We also rethink “emotional eating,” swap I am for I feel to soften harsh self-talk, practice finding gray in a black-and-white mind, and redefine success as movement toward values, not a pass-fail grade. Expect dropped-spaghetti progress, not a straight line.

If you’re tired of the all-or-nothing script and ready for flexible, compassionate change, this conversation offers reframes you can use today. Listen, try one small shift, and tell us what moved you one inch closer to trust. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs gentler language around food, and leave a review to help more listeners find this work.

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Roadmap

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast. I'm very excited about today's episode. If you are somebody who thinks that you might be a perfectionist or identify as a perfectionist and you've also struggled with eating and an all-or-nothing mindset as it relates to food or maybe even borderline disordered eating, this is the episode for you. Today I am joined by my colleague Stephanie Hulls, who is a therapist practicing in Ontario. She has over 19 years of experience in mental health, addictions, and sexual violence. Stephanie focuses on supporting clients with a history of trauma. She values learning more about decolonizing therapy and practices accessing this information from those with lived experiences. Stephanie offers so much in this conversation, and she is somebody that I've spoken with several times just because our client load tends to align quite a bit. In this episode, we're going to talk about what perfectionism is and the difference between perfectionism and just having high standards. We're going to talk about diet culture and kind of how that comes into play for those who are perfectionists. We're also going to talk about trauma-informed care and how she uses that in her practice and again how that shows up with disordered eating. She gives us a little bit of background on what CBT and EMDR is. If you've been interested in therapy or have done therapy, you may have heard of these two therapy modalities. Really, she gives us a good overview of it and how it can help folks. She also talks about emotional eating from a perspective that I think is amazing. And I have been using it a lot in my own practice since because I just find it's so relatable the way she talks about emotional eating. So if you're wondering a little bit more about emotional eating, by all means keep listening. I also have a whole separate episode on emotional eating as well, so be sure to check that out after. And lastly, Stephanie offers us some really amazing practical tips and sort of reframes as it relates to perfectionism and just sort of our mindsets that we get stuck in. The tips to me blew me away. I wasn't expecting as much as she provided us, but wow, if you're looking for you know some more information and some tips as to how to get past perfectionism and disordered eating, if you're trying to work on your relationship with food a little bit, or even just your body image, this is the episode for you. Just before we dive in, I do just want to give a quick disclaimer that we do bring up subjects of trauma. We don't dive into specific traumatic experiences, though we do talk about the topic of trauma and eating disorders and different therapeutic modalities. So if you feel you're not in a place right now where this conversation is going to be helpful for you, by all means save it for later, or maybe just skip on to the next episode if you think that this isn't going to be helpful for you and your mental health at this time. Alright, without further ado, let's get into the episode. Hey friends, and welcome to Behind the Plate, a podcast designed to help you eat with more clarity, confidence, and compassion, especially if ADHD, binge eating, or burnout is part of your story. I'm Heather Soman, a registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor. This podcast is where we ditch food guilt, question diet culture, and learn how to nourish our brains and bodies in the way that nature intended. So let's get into it. Hi Stephanie, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Thank you for having me. I'm excited about this.

Defining Perfectionism Versus High Standards

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Awesome. We're gonna dive right in because I have so much I want to ask you. The first thing I think, just so everybody listening can understand where we're coming from, how do you define perfectionism and how does that sort of show up in people?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, so one question I get a lot, um, I think you asked me before too, is what's the difference between perfectionism and high achieving or having high standards? Um, because a lot of people will say, well, what's the wrong with wrong with having good goals or big goals that I'd like to strive towards? And the answer is nothing, it's more sort of a relationship towards it. So generally speaking, um, high standards tend to be based on values, strengths, and capabilities. And in the case of the latter, stretching beyond that in terms of goal setting. So, for example, if I value environmentalism, I will have a particular standard of um, let's say my purchasing decisions so that I'm in line with this value that I said is important to me. If I'm evaluating my strengths, I might hold myself to a high standard of let's say um writing a good blog post because I think I'm a good writer. Um, and I can also push myself to improve or achieve a new goal because I ultimately know that I am capable, even if it's hard. So the goal is based on realistic growth. In comparison, perfectionism isn't really about striving for alignment with a value or developing a new skill. It's kind of the expectation that we should quote unquote already be there. Um and side note, the word should tends to be a little bit of a cue for perfectionism. Um, but the problem is when there isn't any room for failure, because we should have already achieved this, there's also no room for growth either. Uh so for example, if I expect myself to get 100% on every test and I do, there typically is no room for improvement or a goal to set. I can either maintain that standard or I fail. Um, and I know because we're talking about disordering eating today, if we link that to the fact that our food choices, food intake, um, weight fluctuations are constantly changing, we can never really maintain a certain standard. Um, so kind of in a nutshell, perfectionism tends to be rigid and unforgiving, and high standards are self-aware and realistic.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Thank you so much. I didn't know this. This is really helpful. Um, and I'm sure a lot of people can resonate and got a lot from that because what I'm really taking is is the whole people who are perfectionists expect themselves to already be there at the goal. And I I totally could see how this comes up with with eating. And I also really took away the whole um having high standards and setting goals for oneself about that growth process that people can understand that they're meant to grow and it's okay if it's not perfect. I'm growing, I'm learning to achieve something. That sounds like a very distinct difference to me. So thank you for defining that. I guess to kind of like bring this back into the disordered eating space, I'm curious about your work. If at all you see this connect with disordered eating and sort of like how it does specifically show up for people.

Diet Culture Sets The “Perfect”

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, I'm going to answer this sort of systemically because I think there's something really unique about perfectionism in disordered eating. Um, if I were to work with someone who sort of generally describes themselves as a perfectionist, they typically set their standard of what it means to be perfect. There are some exceptions to this. Um, but in eating and exercise, we don't decide what's perfect. Diet culture does. And because it defines perfection, it can change it at will, which is why one day perfection is clean eating, then it's low carb, just kidding, it's keto, then it's high protein. Uh and so because you don't define it, you can't achieve perfection. And if somehow you do, you end up unwell. The other unique part is that perfectionists don't often apply their standards to others. In fact, they're often aware of the double standard that they hold. For example, let's say someone's beating themselves up for a small mistake they made, they typically would recognize that they would never judge someone else for that mistake or hold them to that same standard. They would view differently. And along the same vein, they also wouldn't comment on other people's proximity to perfection, in part because they don't view any deviation from quote-unquote perfection as problematic in others. However, diet culture absolutely applies its standards of perfection to others and arguably to everyone. And it encourages commenting on whether people are meeting that standard or not. So if a colleague comes in with takeout for the third time this week at lunch, we notice it, we evaluate it, we compare it to the standard of perfection and moral goodness we've been modeled, we praise or condemn it, and people will even comment on it. So the societal permission to apply the standard of quote unquote perfect eating, which is usually disordered eating, um, applying to everyone, and then playing judge and jury both privately and publicly, makes it a really tricky form of perfectionism to resolve.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Your friend, your sister, whoever, do you think that it's fair for them to never have insert favorite dessert here? And they go, No, I want them to have the foods that they love. And I go, why doesn't that apply to you? I'm wondering, like in your work, without maybe going into too much depth, how do you address that double standard? What do we do about that?

The Double Standard And Self-Talk

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, part of it again is diet culture um basically tells us that we should ascribe to this. And if we are kind and gentle, we might not apply it to everyone else. But again, sometimes diet culture says we should apply that to others. Um, but we might know enough to not say so. So someone might say, like, well, no, my sister, of course, can have that food, but internally we might be thinking, oh, but you know, it's probably better that she doesn't. Um because diet culture is just so sneaky and there's this awareness that it's not healthy, but we should point out where we think the discrepancies are, even if we don't agree with them. The other part is sticky, and uh, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but um, we have our cognitive rational brain, it's like our little library has tons of useful information, uh, and we have our emotional brain, which also holds past traumatic experiences, um, holds negative beliefs about ourselves. Generally, they work well together, sometimes they don't. And we have this split where um perhaps people have had that experience where they say, I know this doesn't make sense, but I feel it anyways. So there might be the cognitive awareness of, well, of course, this doesn't apply to my sister, and the emotional brain is saying, I don't care, I'm gonna apply it to myself.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I could totally see how that shows up for people. Another thing I was thinking about as you were sort of talking about how perfectionism and diet culture sort of come together was just with body image as well, and people's expectations of their body. And I think it's tough because it seems like the needle with body image tends to change. Like we've seen historically throughout each decade, the ideal figure, especially for women, tends to change. And we've seen that, you know, since the early 1900s, I'm sure even earlier than that. But we see that the needle keeps moving, and I think when we're subscribing to diet culture so closely, it could, I could see how that would really impact people's body image and self-perception as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, absolutely. And again, because we're not creating the standard, it also erodes self-trust. Um, that if I do feel good in my body, I have all these messages saying, well, you shouldn't. Um, or you can for I don't know, we had five decent years and now we're back to skinniest the goal. Um and we weren't exactly nailing it the past five years. But again, there's that shaming element of um if you feel good in your body, you're not supposed to, you're supposed to ascribe to this idea of better, thinner, younger, fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah. And it's like, when is it enough?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, and it never is. And again, if you do somehow uh uh achieve that quote unquote perfection, we are making ourselves really unwell mentally, physically, emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, so well said. Thank you. I want to kind of flip a little bit because of so much of your work is is about trauma and trauma-informed care. I I want to know from a trauma-informed perspective, what purpose do you think perfectionism and disordered eating serve for someone?

Body Image And The Moving Ideal

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, I think one of my favorite things to tell someone is this makes so much sense. Um we wouldn't be doing things unless they served a function. Um, one distinction I want to make is perfection is often described as a maladaptive coping strategy in mental health, which I don't love because maladaptive means that you adapted poorly to a situation. And I don't think that's true. Um I think we adapt to painful circumstances to survive, and where this causes future problems is when we continue to use a strategy for a situation that no longer exists. For example, let's say someone growing up in a food insecure household, they learned to overeat whenever they did have access to food. Of course they would. That's so clever, and I'm so glad they figured that out. However, let's say they're now an adult and have access to food whenever they want, but they are continuing to binge. The strategy is responding to a threat that no longer exists. Um, but it's really hard to let go of a coping strategy that has kept us safe. And because sometimes a threat does continue to exist in our lives, maybe continues to do so. And arguably one of those ongoing threats is diet culture, media, and on and on. Um so to answer your actual question about purpose, uh, perfectionism is often a way to avoid negative feelings like rejection, shame, lack of control, or low self-esteem. And it's often driven by the very human need for external validation and acceptance, as well as the fear of losing it. And this is where dire culture jumps in, along with disordered eating behaviors. Um, so one function is protection. If you're perfect all the time, we feel like we can avoid criticism, rejection, um, uncomfortable feelings, or other negative outcomes. Um and again, this might have served a really important function. Aiming for perfection has kept many kids emotionally and physically safe at home. So it makes sense to want to hold on to that strategy. And in the context of disordered eating, certain behaviors may have helped to avoid critical comments on one's body by a family member or maybe a peer group. Another function is connection and acceptance. Um, one way we think we can build connection and be accepted is to never make a mistake and to meet someone else's every need, which is impossible. But we aim for this because we believe it avoids conflict and we think the other person will always be happy with us. And some of us learned and were praised for being quote unquote on problematic growing up. And given how society celebrates particular body types or eating behaviors and exercising habits, disordered eating can feel like a ticket to connection and acceptance. And there is research that certain body types are treated better than others, so this isn't that far off. Another function can be control. So perfectionism can create a desire to control everything so as to be in charge of the outcome. Um, the strategy might be used when we're fearful of negative feedback or struggle with the stress of not being in control, and we look, we can find control, which is often in disordered eating behaviors.

Trauma-Informed Lens On Perfectionism

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. And as someone who works in eating disorders specifically, which I know is a lot more of an extreme version of disordered eating, but I've seen how that response to um the the sort of perfectionism coming in, and that response to being criticized by a peer group or a family member or something can bleed into some of these behaviors around eating to the point where it starts to impact somebody's health. And even if somebody doesn't have a diagnosable eating disorder, disordered eating can still negatively impact somebody's physical health significantly. And I know you can see it from a mental health standpoint, and myself in my practice, I see it from a physical standpoint too. We start to see a lot of symptoms popping up, and that's often a lot of what I do is to try to point those out to people as to like, hey, maybe you're tired all the time because we're not, you know, eating enough or we're restricting. And then this is where I think you and I have talked about this before, Stephanie, where our professions kind of intersect quite a bit, where I can point those parts out to somebody, and then it goes, okay, but I also don't want to change my body and way of eating because of inter enter different trauma experience here. And then I go, okay, well, this is where somebody like Stephanie could be really helpful in this type of situation. Um, another thing I wanted to ask you about, Stephanie, is you're trained in both CBT and EMDR. I mean, your resume is extensive and you you've done so much work. I I'm just wondering about those two approaches specifically, maybe more so EMDR, because it's a newer maybe sort of treatment, maybe I could say. For those listening, what is it and and how, if at all, can it support someone who's struggling with perfectionism?

Functions: Protection, Connection, Control

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, so um, if I can give a little background, uh Judith Herman wrote a book on trauma and recovery, and uh she designed this triphysic model, which is designed for trauma but really works in a lot of different ways. Um, I'll change the language a little bit just to make it a little bit more user-friendly. But the first stage is essentially uh safety and stabilization, which means coping strategies. How do I get through my day a little bit easier? So that might mean psychoeducation, it might mean developing coping strategies, boundaries, communication skills. And in my opinion, this is where CBT fits in. The second stage is more about processing. So great, I've got tools to get me through the day, but why do I keep bumping up against these same habits, behaviors, triggers, urges? Um, and then we would look at some of the root causes and process them so that we're reacting to present day, not present day plus the past. And then the third stage is um called it a couple different things, but we'll say integration, and it's kind of like the now what phase. Um, what does life look like without these painful memories, these painful feelings and beliefs? Um, so EMDR would fit into that processing stage. Um, so those are the three stages. That being said, we don't fall into nice neat little steps. So movement between them is normal. Uh, the best example is the pandemic, it doesn't matter where I was with the clients, everybody went back to that first stage of coping. Um, so if you notice that recovery is not linear, it's not meant to be. That fluctuation is normal. Um in terms of what CBT is and where it can be helpful, it's very goal-oriented. Uh, it focuses on present-day problems and with the help of his CBT therapist, focuses on step-by-step treatment plans to meet your goal. Essentially, CBT helps us identify unwanted emotions, behaviors, and disordered thoughts and teaches skills to cope with them. And it also teaches us how those interact with one another. So the idea is my thoughts impact my feelings and behaviors, my feelings impact my thoughts and behaviors, and so on and so forth. Um, so for example, uh let's say someone is out for dinner and they were looking forward to a hearty meal, but everyone else orders a salad. This might be a trigger. The thought might be I'm disgusting and everyone is judging me. The feelings might be shame, uh, worthlessness, fear, or embarrassment. And the behavior might be to change the food order or not finish the meal. The idea with CBT is if we can challenge this unhelpful thought, it might reduce the negative emotions and then lead to a different action. Um, so this can help with challenging some of those thoughts associated with perfectionism. Out of transparency, I'm not a CBT purist, many CBT therapists are, just because I think it has limitations, but I do weave it into my work. Um, there's also CBTE, which is used for eating disorders, but I'm not trained in that, so I can't speak to it. But sometimes where CBT hits a bit of a dead end for folks is what I was mentioning earlier, where the cognitive brain knows it, it gets it. You're preaching to the choir. I know this is not a helpful thought, I know I need to eat in order to be well. I know that if I eat things that don't feel good for my body, I have physical symptoms afterwards that I don't feel good about. I know that that's not the part that's stuck. The part that's stuck is the emotional response that comes up. With EMDR, it uh I kind of call it the brain because it believes that our brain is naturally healthy and has ability to keep us that way, which means that we process upsetting things all the time, except for when we don't. And if a memory is not stored properly, um, we can develop dysfunctional thinking or experiences. It basically gets stuck in its initial form. And the idea with EMDR is we want to unstick it and process what didn't have a chance to get processed in the past and recognize where the past and the present are colliding. Um, for example, let's say you were laughed at in first grade for not knowing an answer in class, and this memory doesn't integrate properly because you didn't have the right support at the time to help you manage that painful situation. A negative thought now gets attached to this experience. So let's say it's um I'm stupid. Fast forward, now you're an adult and you forgot to take dinner out of the freezer, and your partner, you're sorry, your partner gently teases you about it. It, even though it feels like a simple exchange, we feel humiliated and ashamed because this event may have reinforced your first grade experience along with all those feelings, body sensations, and thoughts you had at the time. So that voice I'm stupid comes up again, maybe your face feels hot with shame. And we can look at that exchange between you and your partner. We might make that situation feel better, but the next time something bumps up at that again, we're going to get triggered again. So the idea with EMDR is to go back to that touchstone experience, let's say in this example of that first grade incident. And if we can resolve those feelings and thoughts of the first grader, the adult won't feel so impacted either. In regards to how it might help with perfectionism with eating disorders, it might be that you identify a specific event, like someone commented on your body in a negative way in front of a group of people, let's say, or it can be a pattern of messages such as only getting praise when you performed well in school and getting negative feedback if you made a small mistake. But essentially without getting too in the in the weeds of that, even jar is really just going back, bringing up past experiences that are upsetting. So that's why we want the safety and stabilization because we're deliberately upsetting people in a sense. We want to make sure we have good coping strategies to manage that and reframing those past experiences so they don't trigger us present day.

Where Dietetics And Therapy Intersect

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Wow, I could see how that would be so helpful for so many people, like to really help with processing those types of events that really impact people a lot today. And I I could see how that like could apply to most people, just in the sense of like we've all got something that we're kind of stuck on. And it I guess I had always thought about it as something that's needed for like big T trauma, like some big trauma that people have gone through, but I can also see how it can really help people process maybe some of those other things that they might not feel it is quite as extreme or intense. Um, I don't mean that in an invalidating way, I just mean it as more like I didn't realize we could use it for so many different applications. I think that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah, it's really neat. It was originally developed for PTSD and war veterans, but absolutely in the meantime, we've identified it can work across a whole myriad of situations. So to your point when we don't want to minimize people's experiences, big T, little T sometimes people feel that one kind of one way to rethink big T and little T traumas, because little T trauma can sound minimizing for some folks, is to think of big T trauma more as uh an event. So that can be natural disaster, that can be an incident of abuse, and the little T, quote unquote, uh would be more so relational trauma. So neglect, um folks know about attachment injuries uh from attachment theory, it might be about that. Um, it might be very happy childhood, but somebody missed a need that you had, and that created some pain points.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Got it. Okay, thank you so much. Again, I'm learning so much just from this conversation. It's it's so helpful. I always get so much insight from talking to you, Stephanie. I I know this might be a difficult question to answer. I guess I'm wondering in in your work and and in this work around perfectionism, whether or not disordered eating comes into the picture, what does healing actually look like? And I'm saying this with air quotes because I don't know if that's a place people arrive at. Um, but what does that look like and how do you help clients maybe redefine what success might look like in recovery?

CBT Basics For Thoughts And Triggers

EMDR For Processing Stuck Memories

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah, so healing involves a couple of things, uh, such as psychoeducation, which I can explain in a second, identifying triggers, developing alternative coping strategies to navigate distress or urges or triggers, um, challenging unhelpful thoughts, and possibly, if relevant, working through past traumatic experiences or unhelpful messaging that influences perfectionism or disordered eating behaviors. So, in terms of psychoeducation, we might learn about why someone developed the coping strategies that they did, and that's super helpful because it provides context for why someone might be engaged in perfectionist tendencies or disordered eating behavior, and it normalizes why it makes sense that this is hard to change, because I think there's so much shame attached to the things we struggle with, and like I said earlier, I think one of my favorite things to say to someone is that makes so much sense why this would be hard or why this belief feels true. Because again, we do have this awareness sometimes of I know this doesn't make sense, but I believe it anyways. Um, psychoeducation can also be helpful to learn about uh diet culture and challenging its language because I know you know I talked about diet language is so sneaky. Um, and we've also talked about the concept of emotional eating. I have many clients who will identify as struggling with quote unquote emotional eating, and I think it's such an interesting phrase that we've come to accept because we don't use that language with other forms of coping. No one says, oh gosh, I'm such an emotional napper, I'm an emotional runner, I'm an emotional breeder. And that's because there isn't the same judgment attached to those behaviors as there is to eating, even if we use those strategies in harmful or avoidant ways. So, what language actually involves aspects of judgment or shame and which can fuel disordered eating behaviors? On the note of shame, you mentioned self-compassion earlier, which is also part of recovery, and it is a hard part of recovery. Um, again, language matters. So I encourage folks to notice how they talk about themselves, how they talk to themselves, and is that voice kind? And spoiler, it's usually not. We're very good at being mean to ourselves. Um, but to provide folks with a little takeaway practice. Um, I'm sure people have heard ways to practice self-compassion and talk nicely to yourself. But I want to point out, um, especially with perfectionism, it's to try and create language that feels realistic when negative self-talk pops up or those perfectionist beliefs pop up. Because one reason I'm not a huge fan of affirmations is that they're typically too much of a leap for both. If someone can't look at themselves in the mirror because they hate what they see, the affirmation I am beautiful is going to be really tough sell. And it's going to be discouraging because it might feel impossible for that belief to ever feel true. So one gentle adjustment folks can try when talking to themselves is to swap I am for I feel because one of those is an unmovable trait, the other is more of a transient state. For example, um, I am disgusting for having a binging episode is different than I feel disgusting for having a binging episode. The first one is treating it as a fact that I can't change, and the second one is recognizing I'm having a hard time, and maybe I need something or maybe I need someone. Another part of self-compassion is to find the gray, so not the black or white thinking that perfectionism loves, identifying positive aspects of what you're criticizing, uh determining the root of perfectionalism, and normalizing again why it makes sense. Um, and then this is a really tough part is practicing to do something imperfectly. In part, and this is an uncomfortable part, we can't disprove a belief unless we challenge it and gather evidence that it's not always right or sometimes it's never right. In perfectionism, uh, the idea of success can be really difficult in therapy because perfectionism is so black and white. And therapy doesn't really do black and white very often. Um we want to redefine success because again, the black and white thinking is that there's a goal and I either meet it or I don't need it. And sometimes that's true if I'm aiming for promotion and I got it, that's it. The end, I'm at the goal. Um, I might set a new one, but that one's that one's done. But most goals aren't that cut and dry. Um, for example, if someone's goal is to have a better relationship to their body, that's going to be affected by a myriad of external factors that are forever fluctuating. Uh, the holidays, societal trends, bloating, a bad night's sleep. Um, these factors aren't static, so neither is our relationship to them. And because of that, unfortunately, we don't say, I love my body and we'll nourish it accordingly, and then never have to revisit that goal. We're constantly working on it. So rather than viewing a goal as success or failure or therapy or healing or recovering as success or failure, I like to borrow a concept from ACT, which is acceptance of commitment therapy. And we're more so identifying if we're moving towards a goal or if we're moving away from it, which is much more forgiving. So let's say someone has a really difficult day that felt out of control, and let's say they've worked really hard to stop tracking calories, but they start thinking of how many calories they ate that day. It's very easy and tempting to say, oh gosh, I've messed up, I'm failing at this, I haven't improved at all, versus saying, well, that moved me away from my objective. What would move me back towards it? Maybe I journal, maybe I take a break from social media, maybe I eat the thing I was about to restrict, or I call a friend. And this can help because perfectionism's all-or-nothing thinking loves the idea of your only options being success or failure, whereas we want success to become more about self-forgiveness, self-trust, uh, self-acceptance, and the ability to correct something that doesn't feel good. And part of what's uncomfortable with recovery is uh we really like a linear process, and it would be great if recovery was this graph that just steadily went upwards. Um, but it's more like to drop spaghetti. You move forward, you go back, you go on a little side quest, you come back. Um, and it's really hard not to view those quote-unquote detours as regression or some type of failure or loss of hope because perfectionism brings up a lot of shame, but that really is just part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Wow. That like you just gave our listeners so much in terms of reframes and so many really applicable examples, I think, of ways that perfectionism shows up and even just ways to kind of like have these small little shifts in our thinking that can really help benefit people every single day. I think your work is incredible, and I can see how this would be so helpful for so many people. Stephanie, I want to thank you so much for joining today and being on the podcast. You've shared a wealth of information. Um, thank you again. I know a lot of people are gonna take many things from this episode. If you've made it this far in this episode, Stephanie, please share with us how can people find you and your work? Who is it that you're serving? If people want to work with you, how do people find you?

Big T, Little T, And Attachment

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah, so you can find me. Um, my business is called Reflection Counseling Services. I'm in Waterloo, Ontario. Um, but I also offer virtual services across Ontario. Um so you can find me at reflectioncounseling.ca. Um you can find me on Instagram at Reflection C S L G. Um, you can go old school and call me at 519-208-4800. Um, but I part of what I would want people to know as well about working with me is that um as we talked about today, I'm I'm speaking more to disordered eating because I don't specialize in eating disorders, um, but that I very much take uh a holistic and systemic view. Um just because it's rough out there, uh it's it's not you. It's not us. This system is the cards are deliberately stacked against us. It's designed to work the way it works. Um, the system is not positioned for us to feel better about ourselves, it's about making money. Um, and so I really want to make sure that includes how these systems impact our ability to uh contradict the beliefs that are really getting thrown at us every day.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

That's amazing and so important for people to hear, even just zooming out a little bit there. Because I think sometimes we can get really stuck in our own thoughts and our own lives and not realize that there's a whole world that's kind of leading us to feel these ways. So again, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today. Hope to have you back sometime. Um, and thanks everyone for listening. Okay, I'm gonna stop the recording.