#016 Why Pastors Are Exhausted and Afraid to Admit It + It’s exhausting

In this episode of Living on Incline, John Eklund sits down with Pastor Daryl Clark for a raw conversation about church leadership, burnout, recovery, mental health, race, culture, and what it really means for the church to be the church. Daryl opens up about 25 years of ministry, the pressure pastors carry, why preaching is only a small part of the job, and how loving people has to matter more than image, ego, or performance.


TIMESTAMPS
[00:00:00] Intro and Daryl Clark’s 25 years of pastoral ministry
[00:01:10] Leadership development, discipleship, and Dallas Theological Seminary
[00:02:36] Why seminary often misses counseling and mental health
[00:04:10] "Preaching is the smallest part of what I do"
[00:04:35] Building teams, delegation, and not being intimidated by gifted people
[00:06:42] Pressure, insecurity, and the mental health side of pastoral leadership
[00:07:04] Why pastors need Sabbath and sabbaticals
[00:08:26] Daryl’s mission trip to India and being detained
[00:10:59] The state of the church in America right now
[00:11:57] Why politics and nationalism are "killing our witness"
[00:14:17] Eric Mason clip and the conversation around the black church
[00:16:09] "I think he's speaking a language that I'm not allowed to express"
[00:17:14] Gentrification, church culture, and reaching the actual community
[00:19:06] Lead pastor vs senior pastor and changing authoritarian church culture
[00:21:23] "Just preach the gospel" and the conversation around social justice
[00:24:19] George Floyd, silence from the church, and what the gospel should produce
[00:26:36] Why the church expects government to do what the church should be doing
[00:28:14] Mental health, addiction, and the church’s lack of preparation
[00:28:45] "Our inaction weakens our witness"
[00:29:15] Acts, language, and why the Holy Spirit should make the church attractive
[00:30:45] Daryl’s healing journey, anxiety, vulnerability, and depression
[00:31:39] Letting go of performance mode
[00:33:25] Toxic church environments and unresolved trauma
[00:35:34] "You need some therapy to get over this"
[00:36:14] Why therapy is still stigmatized in black church culture
[00:37:50] "You can't do this by yourself"
[00:38:17] Why recovery programs fail if pastors have not done recovery work
[00:39:11] Recovery Alive, church resistance, and leading two churches at once
[00:40:46] The 12 steps sermon series and backlash from church members
[00:42:11] Reaching the unwed mother, the ex-con, and the overlooked
[00:43:07] "All are welcome at the table"
[00:44:03] 1 Corinthians, the Lord’s body, and who belongs at the table
[00:45:12] Why pastors must become vulnerable so others can heal
[00:46:06] Forgiveness, grace, and Daryl’s personal inventory
[00:47:22] Fatherhood, sons, and breaking unhealthy cycles
[00:50:56] The impact of Daryl’s father and how culture changes over time
[00:52:20] "I don't wanna do this anymore" and the truth about pastoral burnout
[00:53:40] Sabbatical, growth, and why Daryl is still pushing forward
[00:54:46] Doctoral work at Gordon Conwell and final encouragement
[00:55:28] Outro


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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

As soon as we landed, I was detained. They don't want any Christians coming in to proselytize the Hindu people, whatever. Had the line say I was there to see a friend. Live for Jesus. I love it. The policeman that was questioning us was a Christian. Oh this is me. 25 years of pastoral ministry. Twenty-five years of ministerial bliss. And the world is not waiting for the perfect Christian. They're waiting for the committed Christian. I'm gonna say that again because I need for the devil to hear this. And when Jesus becomes king, everything else has to move out of his way. Preaching is the smallest part of what I just talked about. I'm kind of weaning my church into letting them understand that pastors need time off. I need a Sabbath. I have people leave. You know, he's never there. You're a bunch of church Karen.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

People don't care how much you know. You can know all kinds of theological truths. They don't care how much you know until they know how much you can how much you can. What's the state of the church right now in our country?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

How do you how do you feel about the state of the Capital C church, this nationalism, uh, this this politics, this picking sides, this, you know, political parties, it's killing our witnesses. And that's what's killing the church.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

The black church came into existence not because blacks had a preference to only be with blacks. It's because the white church decided to be the white church instead of the church.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

I think he's speaking a language that I am not allowed to express.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

This episode is sponsored by Recovery Alive, a Christ-centered recovery movement helping people rebuild their lives, restore relationships, and renew their faith. Through safe recovery homes, life-changing support groups, and personalized coaching, Recovery Alive provides hope and a clear path forward for those battling addiction, mental health challenges, or life's toughest seasons. I've seen firsthand how this community changes lives, and yours could be next. Learn more at recoveryalive.com.

SPEAKER_06 2:14

Hey guys, John Eckland here. We are living on Incline as always. If you can hit the subscribe button, the like button, share this with everybody, we would really appreciate it. We got some great content on there. And I could not be more excited because I've got my super good friend with me, Pastor Bishop. He hates when I do Daryl Clark. He doesn't want you don't want any of those. Okay. Just Daryl. Just Daryl. It's just fine. But you hey man, you've earned it. You've been doing this for a while, man. You've been in ministry for a while. Oh goodness. How long have you been?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Well, this year, man. 25 years of pastoral ministry.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

25 years of ministerial bliss. If you want to call it that. Sure. Absolutely. It's been just smooth roads, right? Absolutely. We're going to talk about the challenges, a little bit of ministry. And you're at State Street, just a phenomenal church. You got some great people out there, part of the Church of God of Prophecy. You're involved in some of the leadership in your denomination. Can you share about that a little bit? Leadership development, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah. Well, for the state of North Carolina and a denomination, I'm in charge of leadership, development, and discipleship. And all the ministries kind of follow uh under my wing, just developing leaders and You're super good at it, too.

SPEAKER_06 3:37

Super good and humble.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

I'm trying. And then on the international level, I uh I work for the, of course, leadership development and discipleship department, but I'm also a part of the biblical doctrine and polity committee. So we kind of write the doctrine, interpret, you know, the Bible, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_06 3:55

You went to that big old seminary down south, that big old thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yes, sir. I graduated from Dallas Theological Center.

SPEAKER_06 4:01

Solid.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I love it.

SPEAKER_06 4:03

Solid. Kick my butt. It did, right? What do you like about studying all that theology stuff?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

You know, I I just think you got to keep it in perspective. Correct. It's helped me to be a better pastor. Okay. Uh, which is ultimately all I want to be is a good pastor. Yeah. Uh just kind of understanding their focus is really, you know, they're really hot tight on uh as far as interpreting the word and all that good stuff, you know, just but you temper that with the love for your people. You know, I went back to school so I could better care for my people.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

So yeah, I didn't mean to ask this question right out the gate, but I was having a conversation with another pastor about seminary. And you and I have spent a lot of time talking about mental health in the church, recovery in the church, all that. Um, going to seminary uh in the past and even currently, how much of seminary is focused on that part of doing the job of being a pastor, counseling, mental health. Is it is it or nothing? Nothing. I know what's up with that. What is up with that?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

I mean, there are those that that major in the you know pastoral counseling pastoral counseling and all that stuff. You really have to depend uh on the Holy Spirit to help you.

SPEAKER_06 5:24

Which is which is valid, you know, because uh biblically the Holy Spirit is called counselor, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Um but but your love for people trumps it all. Yeah. And it and it overshadows, it helps you to take all the great nuggets you've picked up and try to apply that. Because I'm I'm understanding knowing God's word thoroughly helps me in talking to people.

SPEAKER_06 5:45

Oh well, I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, you know, it's about relationships, it's about relationship, but and also keeps things in perspective, you know. So when you come at me with some crazy issue, that look, that's not biblical. Right, you know, and this, and if you can get back to the basics or get back to what is biblical, yeah, it's gonna simplify a whole lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 6:03

But to your point, uh, and I know it's a cheesy saying a bit, but I think it's very true, is people don't care how much you know. You could know all kinds of theological truths. They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. It's relationship building. And I think that would be a wonderful thing to have some more focus on in seminary, equipping pastors with that. Because that's I mean that's a big part of the job, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Preaching, preaching is the smallest part of what I just talked about that.

SPEAKER_06 6:30

It's just you know dealing with people, personalities, broken people who are in leadership. Right. What is the what is the biggest challenge right now for for folks who are doing leadership development? Um, trying to get uh new pastors to to see how to um put together a team.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Um all of that. You're right on it. It's just hard. It's hard. Well, the incentive is not there as much, especially in our denomination. There's so much they they tell us if we can just quote a scripture and we can preach and have some good administrative skills and we're gonna be okay as a pastor. And that's just not what what what it's all about. It's about loving people. Uh the secret I'm finding what's helping me is not to be intimidated by the people that God sends me, but to get everybody working in their area of expertise. I just got a new executive pastor. Okay, good. And uh of course it's a change in philosophy. You know, at this church, I used to I'm I should be called the senior pastor.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I call myself the lead pastor because I say I'm first among equals or whatever. And I have a team of pastors and I'm giving them a different assignment. So they're bucking, they're fighting, whatever. But this particular executive pastor runs a huge, I don't know if I'm at liberty to say, but she does something really big for the state of North Carolina. Okay. She manages millions of dollars. Wow. She has a team of executive, you know. So why wouldn't I put her to work?

SPEAKER_06 7:56

Smart pastor.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

That has helped me tremendously. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:00

She brings those skills into your own.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

She brings those skills. In fact, we had a meeting last night where I I didn't even have to be on the phone call. I'm like, why am I here?

SPEAKER_06 8:09

And I can't. You don't have to be here. Next time I won't be in this right.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

And I don't have to be intimidated by that. She is flowing, yeah, and the people are responding, and you just can't be intimidated by that. So you got to teach new pastors to take that's the kind of skills we need to do.

SPEAKER_06 8:24

So they it's hard to delegate because they feel intimidated when somebody comes in and can do some of those things better, maybe than they can.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Listen, if you want to be smart, hang out with smarter people.

SPEAKER_06 8:36

Right, right. And that that's a little bit of the ego, I think, is what you got to get your ego out of the way. Which can sometimes be more of a mental health issue. Like we've talked about that insecurity. You have your own insecurity, that anxiety, like I want to make sure that I'm seen in a certain way. It's a lot of pressure. It is a lot of pressure. You've been doing this for a while. A lot of pressure on it.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

It is. And you put it, you, you put it on yourself because you feed into it. And the thing is, you don't have to feed into it. Okay. Don't let people make you feel like someone's after your job. And you know, because you get the comments. Well, I thought you were the pastor. I am. You know, I don't have, but I don't have to say that.

SPEAKER_06 9:14

Why would people say that? Like if if you're not preaching that day or you're not making those decisions, you're leading that meeting.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

I've had people to leave because, you know, they felt like for the month of October, for example, I'm kind of weaning my church into letting them understand that pastors need time off. Yeah. I need a Sabbath. What? And I know that they're not ready for me to take like in most most mainstream churches, pastors will take a month off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:40

Sabbaticals. A sabbatical.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

So what I did this past October was I didn't preach any Sunday. I was only absent two Sundays out of that month, but I was there, but I let everybody else speak. I had people leave. You know, he's never there. He's never- Well am I paying my tithes and offerings for it? Oh boy. And I call, I said, You're a bunch of church Karen's who just, you know, feel like Church Karen?

SPEAKER_06 9:59

That should be in a book. You should write a book called Church Karen's. I like that, man.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

No, you're not going to dictate to me how this happens. So I I but you know, in this coming year, I'm going to in 2026, I'm going to take my sabbatical. That's so good. It's time, you know. That's so good. I've never taken one in 25 years. Really? Never. I've never taken it. What are you going to do? You know what? Nothing. I'm going to You like to fish, right?

SPEAKER_06 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

I like to fish.

SPEAKER_06 10:21

Fishing.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Uh, you know, I I I got my boy, little boys, but they're going to give me a couple of weeks off. They already promised me. Oh, good. And uh just just get away. I'm going to do some fishing. I'm going to do some reading. And I'm just, you know, I'm starting to practice it already. I took this winter break. We're probably way off subject, right? I took this winter break.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Oh, that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I took this winter break and I just we I took a missions trip to India.

SPEAKER_06 10:46

Did you?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

And it was grueling. Got this plantar fascia to prove it. And uh a lot of walking. A lot of walking.

SPEAKER_06 10:55

Where were you in India?

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I wound up in this place called Nagaland. Okay. Uh, we were in New Delhi, had to go to Nagaland, which is right on the border of uh China.

SPEAKER_05 11:03

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

And so they did not want and as soon as we landed, I was detained. And uh, you know, because they don't, you know, they don't want any Christians coming in to proselytize the Hindu people, whatever. So, you know, got to the police station and everything. And they, you know, it was it was fine. I had to answer a whole lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 11:21

Was it like a religious visa that you're on?

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Or what they're you know, we had to track forgive us. You know, oh, you had to lie? I had to lie and say I was there to see a friend. Lying for Jesus. But the thing But see, this friend brought in some other Christian missionaries, and we're having this little small conference where we're teaching. I get to teach uh area bishops like from Indonesia, from Malaysia, whatever. So I was selected to go over there and teach. And uh, so they they questioned me and everything. But thankfully, God is so good. The the policeman that was questioning us was a Christian.

SPEAKER_06 11:54

Oh man. Good work. So we got off.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:59

That was good to the Lord. I don't know. We we just went to a a country I can't even name because we got in trouble going into this country as a recovery lives and nonprofit. Like we had some um of our financial uh sources say, hey man, we got to back off because you went here because there was some thought about like supporting a communist government. It's it there's a lot of danger in going on mission trips these days with the climate of this world. And so, yeah, kind of scary, man. When we were over in this in this communist country, it was like we had to meet in areas like secret locations to have conversations with pastors. And so um, I don't think people get it.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

It's it's a little scary out there, it's very scary out there, and we just you know, I've got my train of thought, but we we just kind of let yeah, we we don't think, you know, I have a brand new respect for these missionaries that are on the floor. You know, and then but it's ministry is is rough. Yeah, how long were you uh there in India? I was there for five days, but it felt like some good work though. Good work done, got experience, got everything a great experience. Wouldn't trade it, wouldn't want to go back, but wouldn't want to wouldn't trade it. Yeah. Uh at least not now.

SPEAKER_06 13:14

Tell me about the you've been doing this a long time. What's the state of the church right now in our country? How you how do you feel about the state of the Capital C church in our in our country? Yeah, right? It's hard, yeah, yeah, it's hard not to be all cynical.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

I want to be very, very positive and upbeat because this is a good time to be a Christian. Uh-huh. This is a good time to be the church if we would only start being the church. All right. This world is hungry for relationship. This world is hungry for uh just a positive outlet. Yeah. You know, at the very least, a positive outlet. I believe people want to do better and people want to change, and people are hungry to see righteousness and holiness and all that good stuff. But the church is so being busy being everything but that right now. Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

A lot of polarizing uh a lot of a lot of separation, a lot of it's frustrating. Yeah. A lot of politicizing, a lot of nationalism kind of church.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

It's and that's what's killing the church. Yeah, I think. People won't admit to it, especially in evangelical circles or whatever, but this nationalism, uh, this this these politics, this picking sides, this, you know, political parties, it's killing our witness. Yeah. And we are just about as effective as nothing right now because we won't be the church.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

We won't be the church. And so I I wanted to show you this clip and uh see what your reaction is to it. And it's uh a guy who is an author of a book called Woke Church, which I read and I thought it was fantastic. You know, I know there's a lot of might even lose some people watching this because you see that word that word woke is like, oh my gosh. But um just talking, I I appreciate this this pastor because he's Eric Mason, he's having conversations just about the importance of okay, let's not do nationalism in churches. But the the Bible is interested in social justice, it is interested in things that um have to do with uh people being oppressed. And um, and so I just want you to watch this clip. And you and I have had this conversation. Um, you are uh an African-American preacher in an African American church, um, but somebody that I so appreciate because um some of the ways that you are confronting your own congregation is a little bit outside of of the norm. And we'll talk about that. Um you say sometimes that that for your own congregation, there there's some there's some tension there regarding even the neighborhood that you're you're living in. Yes. Um, so I want just watch this clip, and then if it's okay, we'll just have a conversation about not just racism, but um just what's the church's response to some of these obvious difficulties and polarities that we have? So let's take a look at this clip. Throw on these headphones, Solomon. You ready?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Who preached the gospel and proclamation? Um as I got older, I understood where it came from. The black church came into existence not because blacks had a preference to only be with black. It's because the white church decided to be the white church instead of the church, which made it now a need for the black church. For the impact of the black church in communities, and then in white siblings would say to me why does it have to be a black church? Rather than get in a toss with what I feel like I just quietly reserve myself because what there should be that's what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_06 18:12

I don't want to preface this at all. I I want to just get your initial response or reaction. When you watch that, what are some of your like immediate thoughts and responses to that?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I think he's speaking a language that I'm not allowed to express. And it's really, really sad. But it's very, very true. You there the tension here is I'm in you're in fear of speaking that to that truth because you know you're gonna get pushback. You know, you mentioned I'm an African-American pastor in an African-American neighborhood. I'm in an African-American church, but my neighborhood is no longer just African-American.

SPEAKER_06 19:01

Right. I appreciated this so much our conversation about that gentrification happening in your neighborhood, and that there's a lot of like white young families moving into your neighborhood, and yet you're in a traditionally African-American church serving an African-American congregation to some extent. And so, like you having the vision to go like, we're a we're called State Street Community Church. And that's our community, but there's tension there.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

There's tension there because we we will not change our culture to meet that culture. Yeah. And the tension is on one side, why should we? Right. Because we we were forced to be who we are.

unknown 19:47

Right.

SPEAKER_06 19:48

And that's I appreciate that about what Eric Sh Pastor Eric was saying. It's very true. Yeah, these white siblings, brothers and sisters in Christ saying, like, why should there be a black church in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And he's like, Well, that's we didn't start that. Right, right. And the other part of that is I'm in, you know, African-American, African-American church, white community, predominantly white denomination. And so Church of God a prophecy. Church of God a prophecy. How about that? Where I didn't know that. Well, when I say predominantly white it the leadership, and and that's changing. Yeah. But our membership, I we always say when we go to our international assemblies, I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this. What's in the audience does not equate to what's on stage.

SPEAKER_06 20:32

Wow. But that's true, right? So many places. In so many places, yeah. It's not a good representation.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

It's not a good representation. Uh, but uh my hardest thing is to get my church to understand if we're gonna be the State Street community church, then we're gonna have to make some changes culturally to meet the needs of our community. Yeah, and so it's so funny. Uh this next month we have our uh this is the second year I've it's been great. We had a leadership conference, all of our uh leaders come together, and so we're gonna a leadership retreat, I should say. And we're gonna have a retreat again. And the subject is uh mainly on addressing the culture and changing the culture of our church. Uh we we mentioned you know earlier about you know me being called the lead pastor rather than the senior pastor. That's a cultural change. Tell me about that. Unpack that a little bit. Well, people don't think much of it. The senior pastor is the guy in charge. Yeah. Uh, and he's the he could be the dictator, he could be the one who makes all the rules, sets his foot down. And traditionally, in this particular church, you know, they've had some a couple of strong leaders who their word was law. Right. And, you know, their interpretation of the word was the interpretation of the word.

SPEAKER_06 21:43

And that's hard both ways, I think. Because that that puts a lot of pressure on that senior pastor, too. At the same time, like nobody counsels but him.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:52

Nobody preaches but him. But him. Nob somebody says, Well, we're we've got this counseling pastor, and you're like, No, no, I want to see the senior pastor. He's The guy, you know, he's the one. Yeah. So I think that not only is that maybe difficult top down, but also exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

And then so somebody who comes along like me, and I don't want to be, I don't want these titles. I don't want to be the head honcho. Not that I'm ab abdicating what my responsibilities are, but it doesn't have to be this way. I don't I don't thrive on being the number one guy. Yeah. Just the opposite. Yeah. I like community and everybody, you know.

SPEAKER_06 22:26

So sharing leaderships, lots of ideas, etc. Yeah. Being you're not threatened by new ideas and people coming and go, hey, let's try this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

And so I'm always looked at in that lens. And if and and I don't, I I will never measure up. You know, I I said the other day, pastoring this church is like, uh, if if I I married my wife and then she passed away, I got a new wife. And no matter what she does to make that house a home, no matter how great she is, she'll never measure up to my ex-wife. And I actually had to say that at a meeting. I said, this is what it's like pastoring this church. I can't, I'm not good enough. But anyway, changing that, changing the culture is what we have to get at because we got to understand we gotta something, the gospel doesn't change. Some methodologies may need to change so that we can accommodate whatever. And but I understand also the other side, why should we have to? Because when we wanted to blend and when we wanted to be a part of whatever, no, you go to your corner and we'll go to our corner, and that's that. So you have that.

SPEAKER_06 23:30

It's a perfect segue into this quote from Eric Mason, who just shared about the gospel. He says, it's hard for me to hear the constant refrain of just preach the gospel. When the topic is abortion, nobody says, just preach the gospel. We preach against abortion as if it's a gospel issue. When the topic is sex trafficking, no one says, look, just preach the gospel. We develop a battalion to go out and get people out of sex trafficking. And we should, because these are crucial issues. But so is racial justice. Or, you know, when we're talking about culture, I think there is a conversation to be had about culture being a part of the gospel message, the culture of our church, what we are doing. You know, I was talking to somebody about Matthew 25. Like, how is how is Jesus gonna judge his, you know, at the end of time, he's gonna separate the sheep and the goats. And, you know, our our our gospel says it's based on if I believe in Christ. There's not by works, but Matthew 25 says I'm gonna separate the sheep and the goats, the the goats based on on whether they fed, clothed, visited people in jail. That's how you're gonna be separated. Right. That's not that's that has to do with action. Action. That has to do with works, which is like it can be kind of a little bit confusing, but our gospel should be producing these kinds of works that are have to do with our culture. Like, what's our focus right now? And so I I I love this conversation. I think it's so important. Like, what's the fruit? What is the fruit of the gospel? What are we doing with it? And if our culture isn't going like, how do we speak English to English speaking people or how do we speak Spanish to Spanish speaking people? Then I think we're just we're insular and we're not doing it. We're not we're not creating any kind of uh impact in the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Well, I'm not exactly sure the church understands what the gospel is as much as they proclaim to.

SPEAKER_05 25:44

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I think it's I think this is the right word I'm looking for. The the problem is with nomenclature, uh just how we name things. Like you said, uh we don't we don't count going and rescuing people in sex trafficking as social justice. Yeah. Okay, but we'll put so we'll attach that name to racial issues, whatever, stuff you don't want to deal with. And here's the here's the problem. And I I hate the fact we have to say the white church or the black church, but the white church, if you keep reading the books that you write, that's good. You you're gonna believe. Right. So so you you wrote the book on uh on the you wrote the book on the book, right? And you gave a a systemic, there's that word. You you've given us a big thing.

SPEAKER_06 26:28

Oh, it's true. You are gonna get in trouble, but I'm with you. I'm coming with you. Okay. No, it is.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

You you have gone down the line, what's right, what's wrong. This is the gospel, this is not the gospel. You wrote the book, right? You know, and I and the the issue I had, even with my denomination, I said sometimes I don't feel like you love me. You know, I realize that not everybody, you can't answer everything that's going out in the world. Right. You know, let's go back to uh when our church had the issue with uh when the world had the issue with this George Floyd thing way back then. Our church said nothing. Now, people in leadership all did this. You know, well, who's supposed to say this is a North American problem, this is a church problem. And I get all that. All you had to say, every one of you had to say was, I'm so sorry. Yeah. That that's all. You didn't have to make any excuses, you didn't that didn't have to change any laws, you didn't have to even address the issue. I'm sorry you feel this way. And that's what that's that's the problem. And isn't that what the gospel should produce? And I think comfort those who comfort mourn, but those who mourn.

SPEAKER_06 27:34

Yeah, and I and I see this struggle with even when we're talking about like systematic theology or you know, saying like the gospel is this thing that uh is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe. And so a lot of teams folks should preach the gospel and everything will take care of itself. I think it's sort of a lazy approach. It's a very lazy approach. And it's also like us four and no more. When you when when what I love about the church I'm in right now is like the city knows who we are. You know, our community looks to us when somebody is struggling financially, when somebody is struggling with a mental health issue, and somebody is, you know, struggling with with addiction. Temple is one of the first places people think of. Like, I gotta go there. And that's outside of the people who are in our church. And I think that's why I love what um the church can be. Like I have hope because I can see that. And we, you know, we're not the perfect church. I love what you guys are doing. You know, you've started recovery live in your church, and and you're trying you're trying to make those connections. But I think that's the difficulty in the church that we're facing. And and um, and it's not just race, it's just it's there's so many things.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

The the problem is I guess part of the reason why we're turning to let's, for example, the government, you know, you got one side saying that we need to have less government. You got other side saying we need to have more government involvement. And the thing is, the church needs to separate itself from that. Yeah. That argument, that whole train of thought. Because where we run into problems is when we expect the government to do what the church is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_06 29:16

Thank you. Uh man, save that clip. That's you. That is so important what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

I mean, everything. So, so you got one side, these liberals who are just doing all this stuff, who uh it's just so against what we practice, what we preach, and and all this good stuff. But the church won't do it.

SPEAKER_05 29:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

And then you come to the other side where you got these conservatives, like, yeah, we're we're we're taking this back.

SPEAKER_06 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Now, all you had to do was be the church.

SPEAKER_06 29:43

Be the church. And and I love Jesus kind of dismisses all of it with the with give to Caesar what's Caesar's like he never really dealt with the Romans. You read the gospels, uh, that there's not one instance where he's confronting some Roman on the way that they act. Like I he's going after the Pharisees, the people who are the religious leaders of the church. And so, you know, I uh this is a bit of a soapbox for me is is what is the church's role and what's their responsibility? And and we as leaders in the in the faith community, so much of what we're supposed to do is what is going on outside of the church, right? Meeting the needs of of what I think are our our modern-day lepers, and that's people with mental health issues, people with substance use disorders. Um, you and I have had those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

We're not equipped and we're so lazy that we won't get equipped.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

Because the gospel will take care of it all. Yeah, and we have to. Read the Bible some more and pray some more.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Dude, as a pastor and as a human being, I get so frustrated. You get frustrated. Yep. Not even, I'm not frustrated at people per se. I get, okay, I've read the Bible, I've prayed. It hasn't changed. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 30:56

So now what? So it didn't work, so you don't have enough faith, Pastor. That's what the problem is.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

I don't have enough faith. Did Jesus fail? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so our inaction weakens our witness, and it weakens the people that are struggling, they they don't want to have faith in a God who's ineffective.

SPEAKER_06 31:14

Right. That's so good. That's so good. So they're gonna go to secular resources.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

You know that, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:19

There's answers there. People are more compassionate, they're more equipped, they're ready to take you in and help you. And what, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

The early church in the book of Acts, you know, and then we won't get all over this. Come on, but come on. But, you know, when they when Glosalela came, they spoke in tongues and the Holy Spirit, all that good stuff. But the thing is, they were able to talk to everybody in their own language. And it has so many more ramifications than just the tongues. Right. In other words, I could relate to everybody. So the the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, we say Holy Ghost, but the Holy Spirit should not be a repellent. It should make you attractive.

SPEAKER_06 31:57

It's almost the restoration. I've heard talk about the restoration of Babel. You know, how like in the Tower of Babel, it was to confuse all the languages. Acts two is like that restoration of community to bring people back together.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

And people together. And so you ought to be able to relate to everybody blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

But our we have weakened the efficacy of the Holy Spirit by our own interpretations and systemic politics.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

Our politics, even our theology, all these denominations out there. I mean, I love what you're doing out there, but it's just all these different denominations. It's crazy. So much thinning the herd rather than trying to grow the church. And uh, so I I love, I love, it's always been very inspirational to be around you, have these conversations. Um, it just feels so level-headed and feels so gospel-centric, the things that you're doing. It's like, I want to meet people where they're at, trying to be a true community faith uh resource. Um, and so uh, but but some of this, you know, in our our relationship, as much as you're willing to have a conversation about it, um, a lot of our relationship has been around like, what do we do with with our own struggles and our own anxieties and and and difficulties with depression or or or anger or insecurities. Um, you've been on a little bit of your own journey. Um, I think just kind of finding um some healing yourself as much as you feel comfortable talking about. I I think that's a I've always loved that about your preaching too, is you you just you don't mind being vulnerable in the pulpit yourself and saying, like, I'm I'm struggling, I go through some things. Um how much are you willing to to share about like your your own journey and um and kind of embracing that weakness and and being vulnerable in the pulpit?

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah, you know I'm done with the days of preaching for response. I'm done with the days of looking a certain way for certain people. It's about souls, it's about winning people not just winning people to Christ, but giving people a hand up in life right now. We spend so much time talking about heaven and we going to heaven, but it's gonna be all right. But in this life right now, people need to know how to live. People need to understand that they you know everybody's dealing, everybody's coping, everybody's got something. That's right. And I think the more transparent we are uh in the pulpit, and when we get the opportunity, we should take it. Yeah. And so that way, you know, I it's taken me a long time to realize this. Because I again I've always brought up on I cause call it performance mode. And uh I just had to be every all things to all people. That's right. And uh when I recognized that I wasn't Christ or Paul.

SPEAKER_06 35:00

When did you hit that point where you're kind of going, like, man, I gotta, I gotta let go of this performance thing. What were some some things that changed that?

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Well, I met this fellow named John Ecklin.

SPEAKER_06 35:11

Yes. I'm baiting you. Yeah, bring bring that up. No.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Well, it's just it's it's been in recent years. Yeah, in the last few years. Uh I this is my third pastorate. Uh and you know, I love the first pastorate. It was a real real tiny church, and we just I call it the church that became a family. And we just kind of grew together. I was just just letting down I I have no hair, but just letting down my hair. Uh that was very helpful. It was uh such a transition in my life. First time I just launched out on faith, moved my family across the country, whatnot, and I developed some great relationships with people that I still have great relationships with. But my next assignment, I went to the the other end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_06 35:57

Tough.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

And it was just a lot of toxicity and a lot of hurt and a lot of closet feelings, and you know, perform be this way for these people, be this way for another set of people.

SPEAKER_06 36:11

Some hypocrisy.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Yeah, a lot of hypocrisy. Not to mention my own personal struggles with some things from from prejudice in my heart to uh dealing with sexual issues. Uh and when I say sexual issues, uh, I I didn't grow up with a father, but the only father I knew took advantage of me. So you you you hide all that. You you you don't want to share that with everybody because they look at you in a different light. I I promise you, they look at you in a different light. But it's just part of being that part of that toxic uh that toxic environment, that that performance, whatever. So I don't get to so unlike my first situation, the next situation, I didn't get to be me.

SPEAKER_06 36:56

I get triggered some of those things.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

So many, so and I'm I what I've learned is you know, the traumas that I didn't heal from kept getting triggered.

SPEAKER_06 37:05

And as a pastor, that's very real. As much as it people are like, ah, pastors are are different. They're you know, they they got a special endowment of the Holy Spirit, and they don't deal, but but you found that that was you feel like a hypocrite because you're telling people how to live.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Oh wow, and you're not doing this yourself. Uh you're telling people how to come out of situations and you're in bondage yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:27

So dealing with that, man, that's you're in the pulpit kind of feeling like, man, I'm I'm I'm more broken than a lot of these folks here.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

And and but I gotta put on the face, gotta put on the face, and it's exhausting. Uh, and I've I've healed a great deal, but like, for example, by the end of this year, which has been an incredible year for me, I'm exhausted. Yeah. I'm I am exhausted because, again, there's some stuff I still need healing from. The stuff I'm still dealing with, you know, and I I've learned this, you know, we talk about demons and whatnot. Yeah, demons do deliver, but you're gonna you need some therapy to get over this. Yeah, right, right. It's both. You get delivered. I mean, I should say you you get delivered from delivery. How do I say this? The demons that you have, yeah, you can get that Holy Spirit, you can get delivered from that, but you got to deal with it, man. You got to heal.

SPEAKER_06 38:18

I've seen teachers and people say, like, I have Jesus and a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah. Yeah. But before, especially in our in our denomination, in our culture, even in black culture, you can't you can talk about so tell yeah, talk about that.

SPEAKER_06 38:31

I always thought that was interesting with the African American culture culture. You're you're saying like it's even even with the senior pastor and like kind of that that um uh authoritarian type. Is that okay to say more of an authoritarian? Like it's almost like pull yourself up by your bootstraps or go to the pastor, and and that's about those are your options, sort of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

And you've we were again being the black church, we're kind of that's how we had to deal with it.

SPEAKER_06 38:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

And this therapist stuff and psychiatry and psychologist, that was for them weak white people.

SPEAKER_06 39:04

That's but also fair enough that there's some trust issues there too, right? Lots of trust issues, and that's fair. Yeah. To to have that difficulty to go outside of the church and trust.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

And when you, as an as an author authoritarian, you you can't if you preach on something on a subject that you've had counseling with, they think that you're just preaching on them. You are you are in that pulpit, you're using that pulpit, and you're getting out all my business. And so I'm not gonna trust you to do whatever. Wow. At the same token, I can't go outside to a non-Christian and tell my business because you know they're full of the devil. They're gonna give you worldly advice, and but what do you do? Right. You're stuck. You are you are just stuck, and so you want to do right by and you're sort of judged, I imagine, because you don't have enough faith. You don't have enough faith because all you gotta do is pray it away. And uh so you you deal you deal with all of that, and uh, but today you gotta you gotta come to the reality that you need help. You need help, you can't do this by yourself.

SPEAKER_06 40:07

So is it fair to say that this is kind of what I've experienced. This is years in I was in Celebrate Recovery as a national director and and now recovery alive and and trying to help churches to build programs inside of their churches for um this kind of emotional discipleship where it's okay to not be okay. But what I've always noticed, like from the very beginning, is that a a church recovery program will not be successful unless the pastor is not just bought in, but they have needed some recovery work themselves. And so I wonder if it's fair to say like the culture has to change in a pastor before the culture changes in the church.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Well, that's very fair to say. That's that's that's exactly the problem.

SPEAKER_06 41:01

That seems to be where the most the most incredibly powerful recovery programs come out of somebody who as a pastor says, you know, I'm I'm a man in need of a savior.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

So so in my in my performance or a woman, sorry, my performance mentality, my people pleasing, these are all all issues that I've come to terms with that I've had to deal with. We started the Recovery Alive program at my local church, and for a while it's you know, it's whatever, but it's become stagnant. Part of it is my fault and I gotta talk to my people about it because I backed off a little bit. The the amount of resistance I have met in that local church uh for putting this forward. So I feel like I pastor two churches sometimes. Wow. Actually three, but we'll that's another story. Uh but I have the church that I'm going for in the future, the church that is the church that's going to reach the community. Yeah. And then I have this church that their idea of going forward is to take me back. And slowly but surely and very slowly, it's things are switching. Yeah. But you in this new culture, they don't have the the denominational loyalty. They don't they're not the strongest financial backers, they're not the most loyal of folks because their mentality is different. Right. These folks over here will come to church, come hella high water, they're gonna be there. Their families could be hospitalized, they can have a broken leg, they're gonna be in church. They're gonna go to church on these folks. If the wind shifts, yeah, sniffle. Yeah, yeah. So I I've backed off. I had backed off a little bit because I feel like I was pushing.

SPEAKER_06 42:55

Well, there's some realities too. Like some you gotta pay the bills.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

You yeah, you gotta pay the bills, you know. In fact, I went, I did this sermon series. I was going through uh the basically 12 points, and uh I had this couple come in. He says, We we're leaving because this is just not what we signed up for.

SPEAKER_06 43:16

You're having a conversation about the 12 steps, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Oh no, I did it, I did a sermon. Yeah, yeah, well, my sermon series. Yeah, and uh yeah, and so this like that's not us. Oh wow, and that's not what we're here for. And those people were quite influential, and uh, so you lost that phone. They they left. And uh, but I'm also learning when people say they're leaving because of this and so, bye. Yeah, that's why I had to say to my church Karen's a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_06 43:40

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

You know what? Bye. Yeah, I can't keep you here. I'm not gonna change your so now I'm coming back full circle because it was it was a good lesson for me to learn. Yeah, it was necessary for my church to have this because we needed healing on the inside.

SPEAKER_06 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

But the tension, the reality of you know, where's your church going on? What's the pushback?

SPEAKER_06 43:59

What are people? Afraid of? Like what what?

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Well again, this psychology stuff is for not for us. That's not that's not who we are. And my thing is you don't know who you are. You are what that authoritarian said you were. Right. And you haven't moved on.

SPEAKER_06 44:13

So you've lost some people just based on the fact that you're not gonna tell people what to do. You're not gonna be that guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah. And I'm not, I'm and like I tell I'm not weak. I'm very strong. Sure. But I'm not going to be who I'm not just to please you. Right. That's good. You know, some people, if I'm not beating them up from the pulpit on Sunday morning, then I'm not preaching.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

So I'm I'm I'm past that now. We gotta we gotta reach people, we got to give life. We got to tell that unwed mother that the church has, you know, basically put you out because you had a baby out of wedlock. You got to let them know that they're still loved. You gotta let that mama who's had five babies from five different daddies, that they've been looking for love in all the wrong places. But here is a way, here is a a pathway to healing. Here's you can find real love, you know. And this is the kind of stuff I'm I'm I'm talking about. We gotta let that that di emasculated man know that he's a, you know what I'm saying? So all of this is important. The convict, the the the ex-con, the all that, they have a place in the kingdom of God. So I I did a uh sermon a couple of months ago. Uh basically it was saying, I I showed this picture of this uh this this painting from New Zealand where there was this church. They had this big thing about these gold bars, and they were keeping all these homeless people were at the church. And so the church paid for these golden bars, the this gate, if you will, to be put up to keep the homeless people out.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Because they were bringing down the face value of the church in the neighborhood. And then outside is the drug addict, the pregnant, whatever, the old and then Jesus is out there with him. And my thing was all a welcome at the table.

SPEAKER_06 45:57

So I I go back into and That's where Jesus is, is outside that gate.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah. And I go back into this thing, and and am I talking too much?

SPEAKER_06 46:05

I love uh it's so good. I go back into that. And we're gonna have that picture, right? Solomon, we could get that picture up.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah. So I I I I go back into the teaching that he gave in First Corinthians about discerning the Lord's body. Now, we've interpreted that as Pentecostals, it's so wrong for so long. And we've taken that to be if you're not worthy, quote unquote, then don't drink from this cup because you drink in damnation to yourself. And I said, you know what? The problem is all of these people were saved per se, but they had not properly discerned the Lord's body. You're trying to show fair. I said, look at the context. You take the nice rich folk and you put them to the front, and you take the poor folk and you throw them to the back. But they all have souls. Yeah. So man, I made some people mad. Because it's like you, you, you got this thing all wrong, all are welcome. So I go through the audience and I said, You, you had a baby out of wedluck. I'm not trying to put your business on on, you know, but you come and you sit at this table. I have this table on stage. Come sit at this table. You know, you you divorced. Come sit at this table. You know, I I was going through the powerful man.

SPEAKER_06 47:21

And so I I roughly. And you're at the head of the table going, uh, childhood trauma.

unknown 47:27

I'm right there.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

I'm because I'm there with them. Yeah. And because I'm tired of being looked at a certain way because of, you know, and I remind them, you guys do realize that my mom was not married to my dad. You know, you f you forget this stuff. I'm not perfect. Yeah. That I dealt with rape issues, that I dealt with whatever, you know. And so it's been you as the pastor, as the leader, have to become vulnerable to people so they can understand your own healing journey.

SPEAKER_06 48:00

What are some of the things you've learned along the way in your own like personal healing journey as you've so courageously confronted some of those past major traumas and just started to go like, yeah, I'm gonna talk about this stuff. It takes courage. I mean, it takes so much courage for anybody to do that. Yeah, what what are some of the lessons you've learned along the way?

SPEAKER_01 48:22

I'm I'm learning, you know, and I go back the well, the Bible is what I do. But for the truth, for forgiveness, I've I've learned forgiveness on a whole new level. And it's not a matter of just saying I forgive you. It's living it. I had to forgive my stepfather and love him, posthumously, but love him. So that I can learn how to love other people. Because we all need grace. I think in my own journey, the things that I've the things that I've done trying to mask that or compensate for that, you know, going overboard to prove my heterosexuality, the way I've mistreated, you know, women or or or or just made people feel like whatever because that was because I was dealing with you know, I'm grateful for my wife who the things that I've said. And I'm not walking around like, oh, I've just been such a bad no. I'm thinking back to you.

SPEAKER_06 49:25

You're taking inventory, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

And so you have to look at that stuff and you become better. And so I'm I'm a better, far better father now. Tell me about those boys. They are something else. They have our best and worst traits, but they make my heart smile because I see in them my weaknesses, but I also see in them my strengths. And so I want I get a chance to cultivate their strengths knowing what I've been through. You know, I get I get frustrated because you know, they're I call them a bunch of nerds, they are super nerds. You know, I tried to get my my son to learn to go into football and he wanted to do golf. I said, why are you doing golf? I said, you know, if I play golf, I get rich. I can own the football.

SPEAKER_06 50:16

Yeah, he's not wrong. I love it. So how old is he? He is 10. Uh, it's amazing. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

I love it. I love it. They're smart. They love to be in the house. They want game night. They want, they, you know, Sunday they were both sick and they stayed home from church. This is the first time in their lives.

SPEAKER_06 50:39

Oh, wow. Wow. You go to church if you're the pastor's son. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

You know, and I thought I was they were healthy, it was the best thing to do. I want them to affect everybody else. They felt so weird, but then they felt good about it too, you know? Uh, it's just so many things. And so I look at them. My my son has some some issues. My older son, uh, much like his father, he grew up around old people. And so he doesn't know how to be a kid. So now I gotta work it, you know, helping him be a kid without being so, you know, whatever. So I'm I'm I'm learning.

SPEAKER_06 51:11

Yeah. I'm learning. What do you want for them?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Man, I just I want for them to to to strive in the area, I want them to find their area of expertise, their area of where their passion is. You know, I'm not all too happy already with where my 12-year-old's passion is, but he's so good at what he does. You know, he I think he wants to go into acting and to, you know, the stage. He's uh he's in the seventh grade and he's already in the school musical. And so we put him to work at the church. He does all the editing and all the uh media stuff. And so he's really into that. Not I want him to get into the business side of it or to the practical side of doing that, but I think he wants to be in front of the camera. So, so you know, getting into his world. Uh so I gotta learn to get into his world to help him. If that's his meet him where he is. I got I gotta meet him where he is. My 10-year-old doesn't know where he wants to be, uh, but he's he's got my mean streak. Yeah. He's got a mouth on him.

SPEAKER_06 52:16

You don't have a mean bone in your body. What? Come on, man.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Listen, I tell you some stories. My my 10-year-old can cut you today and you'll start bleeding like two weeks from now. Like, why am I bleeding? Why? So, you know, I I gotta work with him. Family and ministry can be tricky, huh? Well, one thing I've been teaching, and uh, I'm so grateful. This was a great moment. So I was teaching basically in this lesson, I was teaching a bunch of ministers, a bunch of pastors, and my words to them was do not sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry. I was just talking about whatever. And so in the back of the room was one of my one of our most stoic pastors. Just you know, and he raised his hand, so I'm saying to myself, Oh he's gonna cut me to shreds right now. He stood up and he says, you know, my dad was the state of search, my dad was, you know, whatever. And he spent all of his time church, church, church, church. He did everything with the church. And he says, I would be lying to you if I if I didn't tell you that even today that affected me. And the room was just like culture change. Look at that. So it's powerful. It's happening, it just takes time. That's powerful, man.

SPEAKER_06 53:41

It does take time to turn a ship like that. It's a big ship to turn. Yeah. And culture takes time, you know. And it's not just let's change the name of the church or let's it's it's staying involved, connecting to people, loving the traditional folks. Yeah, because you gotta love them too. Trying to, they're trying to figure it out, you know. And so I I love the way that you love your church. I love the way you preach, man. I love what you're doing in your family. I love your vulnerability. I love you. You you've been an inspiration to me, man. And and uh I want to keep having these conversations with you. Um, I know it's risky, it really is sort of risky for you. I mean, you're out there, you're in the denomination, you're doing that work, but I think your voice is so important. Um, you have that solid base of theology, that solid base of experience, that solid base of yourself struggling with some things. And I think your voice is so important.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

And uh that's what somebody told me the other day. I feel like giving up sometimes. I sometimes I don't feel like I'm making an impact. Uh you know, I don't know if it's the this time of the year, but I just I share it the vulnerability. I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, I get it that way sometimes. I don't want to pastor anymore. I don't want to spend this, you know, I we take time investing in people and investing, investing, and sometimes they just don't get it. And so it's tiring and it's draining. So that's why that's why I need my Sabbath.

SPEAKER_06 55:07

And also at the same time, it's that living on incline for me is is pushing through those things that other people a lot of times like give up on and and they miss something. They miss um that next level. And I think that you've shown that like it's you've you've pushed through that pain of that second church experience to be where you're at today. And I I think that's a little bit, I don't know, I'm getting old and uh I think uh generation behind me said the same thing about us, but suffering well and suffering while you are climbing and working on the next thing, not settling. Um and so I I I pray that's a sabbatical gives you that next level of like inspiration and strength. And I'm really excited for you to do that, to be on that. Uh and you're always I I I don't know if it was Maxwell who said um leaders are learners. And so, you know, going and and and you know, putting a book list together on your sabbatical, I can see you doing that kind of stuff and really, you know, not just uh you're making making a lot of um uh opportunistic moments in your sabbatical to to take your ministry to to the to the next level. I that's my because man, I'm selfish, but but God's not done. I don't think God's done with you. And I want you to keep going. Whatever God wants you to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm every all of us are like, yeah, yeah. Three out of seven days a week, I'm like, I think I just want to go bag groceries down the road, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

You know how many pastors want to just say, I'm done.

SPEAKER_06 56:58

Not not enough admit to it, but I promise you.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Oh man, I'm I'm done. I'm tired. I'm I don't want to do this anymore. Yet we keep on pushing ourselves. That's right. This February, I start my that's my first residency at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.

SPEAKER_06 57:12

No way.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

So I'll be Dr. Clark in three, maybe maybe three, four years.

SPEAKER_06 57:15

See, that's what I'm saying. Why you say I I I just want to quit, and then you're like doing a doctoral program.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

It's one of those, why am I doing this? But you can't help it, because you're you, man.

SPEAKER_06 57:28

It's awesome. That's why I love you. That's why I'm so proud of you, and so grateful that you decide to hang out with us today, man. Would you come back and hang out? Oh, many times this year. I love you, brother. So, so this is therapy. Okay, good for me too. Um, as always, hey, like and subscribe what we're doing here, um, and uh share it with if if it's something that you think is is valuable and helpful to you. And uh Daryl, thank you, man. Love you. Keep coming back, keep doing what you're doing, and uh, we'll see you guys in the next one. Hey, thanks again for joining us on Living On Incline, sponsored by Recovery Live. Would you do us a favor and just hit that subscribe button, share with your friends? And again, we want to explore our full potential and see what we are capable of. So, again, hit that subscribe button and thank you so much for joining us. I'm Living Only