#017 A Mother's Heartbreak: Losing Sons to Addiction and Murder

In this powerful and raw episode of Living on Incline, host John Eklund sits down with Freida MacDonald for an unfiltered look at the devastating reality of the American opioid crisis.

Freida MacDonald spent 30 years as a high-level banking executive while raising her two sons as a single mother. They were the "Three Musketeers" - until a prescription for ADHD medication in kindergarten opened a door that could never be closed.

Freida tracks the "perfect storm" that led her son from prescription stimulants to the street, eventually resulting in his homicide. But the tragedy didn't stop there. She details the harrowing fallout of the Sackler family’s legacy and the subsequent loss of her second son, Michael, to the crushing weight of grief and the fentanyl epidemic.

This is a masterclass in resilience and a stark warning to every parent about the ADHD-to-Opioid pipeline and the predatory nature of Big Pharma.

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro: Meet Freida MacDonald
00:41 - Why I Wear Purple: Overdose Awareness
01:22 - The "K-N-O-W Hope" Mission
04:13 - Meeting the Three Musketeers: Steven & Michael
06:38 - Life as a Single Mom & A Career in Banking
09:36 - The ADHD Diagnosis: A Turning Point
12:02 - The Stimulant Trap: "He Wasn’t Himself"
14:26 - The Sackler Family & The Opioid Explosion
19:19 - Early Warning Signs of the Crisis
26:25 - The Struggle with Prescription Medications
33:47 - Reaching the Breaking Point
40:11 - The Homicide Detective in My Living Room 
44:10 - The Unfiltered Truth About Steven’s Death
50:04 - Launching the First Homicide Support Group
53:39 - Losing Michael: The Unbearable Weight of Grief
55:33 - One Pill Can Kill: The Fentanyl Danger
01:02:01 - Roxy, Pain, and the Descent into Addiction
01:12:29 - The Final Tragedy & The Need for Change
01:16:47 - Turning Pain into Purpose: The Path to Recovery
01:19:49 - Living on Incline: Moving Upward
01:25:17 - A Final Message of Hope & How to Support the Mission

SUPPORT FREIDA MACDONALD’S MISSION

Visit: https://knowhopenc.com/
K-N-O-W Hope.

ABOUT LIVING ON INCLINE

Hosted by John Eklund, we bring you the most powerful, unfiltered stories of individuals who have climbed life's steepest hills and refused to stop. This is a journey through recovery, resilience, and the strength of the human spirit.

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Sponsored by Recovery Alive

Living on Incline is proudly sponsored by Recovery Alive, a Christ-centered recovery program helping people find hope, healing, and purpose through authentic community and biblical transformation.

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#LivingOnIncline #JohnEklund #OpioidEpidemic #ADHD #BigPharma #TrueCrime #AddictionRecovery #Grief #OverdoseAwareness #FentanylCrisis #Resilience #SacklerFamily #Podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I got home and the homicide detective was in my living room.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

Two men face charges tonight for murdering a man in a Raleigh hotel.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

The housekeeper told the 911 operator that she opened the door and discovered the body on the floor covered in blood. Police say the victim is 25-year-old Stephen Hoyle.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

They told me, um, I'm sorry to let you know, um, but your your son Stephen um uh has um been murdered and he's no longer with us. And I remember dropping that pocketbook. You know, it's just it's just so so weird the things that come to your mind.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

This lady is incredible. Her story's incredible. She is the perfect example of living on incline.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

I actually first started with BBT, the oldest bank of North Carolina. So BBT had been in my life longer than my children.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

A four-year-old and a one-year-old. Yes. And a single mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yes. It was. It was a big job, but we were the three musketeers, so we we were really tight and we had so many good times.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Sacklers, uh, black tar heroin, the opioid epidemic, just blows up because of that of that legal prescribed drug being misused and used and dealt with.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Stephen was diagnosed ADHD in kindergarten. And if you don't have him on some kind of medication, he is you're gonna get a call by 10 a.m. at work, at the bank. He said that the medication made him feel like he just didn't have his energy, that he wasn't himself. And it opened up, it opened up doors to places really quickly that may not have been opened had he not been on a stimulant. What he learned is that he could take a rock seat and he could he his anxiety and his grief and all that. He didn't feel any pain. That's it. People would say, we began to lose Michael when we lost Stephen. That's a direct quote from friends. He was 20, you know, he was very young, and he was very he was very shocked at one time. He said, I just don't even know if I want to be in a world like this.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

This episode is sponsored by Recovery Alive, a Christ-centered recovery movement, helping people rebuild their lives, restore relationships, and renew their faith. Through safe recovery homes, life-changing support groups, and personalized coaching, Recovery Alive provides hope and a clear path forward for those battling addiction, mental health challenges, or life's toughest seasons. I've seen firsthand how this community changes lives, and yours could be next. Learn more at recoveryalive.com.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Everybody, we are living on incline. As always, hit the subscribe, like, follow, share, all that good stuff. And uh, I have Frida McDonald in the studio with me. This lady is incredible, her story's incredible. She is the perfect example of living on incline, and I can't wait for you to share your story with us and your journey, really, with us. It's been quite a journey, chapter after chapter after chapter. Almost like a new book. Every yeah, every couple of decades, you just uh transform and it go higher and higher. It's amazing. But you're wearing purple today. Tell us about this purple that you're wearing.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

I love purple, purple's my favorite color. And in my website, it actually says I wear purple for overdose awareness. It actually has that, but I I do love the color. I've loved the color since I was a teenager, but I love it even more. Yeah. Because it reminds me of my work. It reminds me of recovery, it reminds me of many people that I love and I loved and lost, but also loved and have seemed to be successful and do incredible things living on the incline.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

I love it. Look at her, man. You're pro. So you um have a website. Well, let's get that out of the way. Let's let's tell the people about your website. What's for how do they how do they find you?

SPEAKER_02 4:09

What um I I would love to share about that. So I had one that was www.nohope North Carolina.com for the last several years. And I just um went through my youngest son's, as I call it, angel versary. Um 10 years um since I lost him. That's a whole decade. And I wanted to really roll out something special to honor him. And I really did think it through. And I decided a new fresh website at this stage might be just a way to say it's been 10 years. I want a new look. And that just came out on his 10th very week of his 10th angel versary, uh, February 14th, 2026. So it's extremely new, and now it's www.north Carolina um, or excuse me, no hope in C instead of the whole North Carolina. So it's No Hope N C.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

And No Hope is K N O W.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Uh, yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

Hope n C dot com.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

Fantastic. And so you've already mentioned your son. Uh, we're gonna spend some time talking about um both of the sons that you've you've lost. And um thank you for having the courage to talk about that before this started. I said, um, whatever you're comfortable sharing. And I loved your answer. You said, man, I I I feel like this is my mission to share their stories and your story of of working through their loss. You've um you've been through a lot in your life. Where so where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

I grew up in Raleigh. Did you really so I'm really uh back at home. I I was I went away. My children were born in New Bern. Uh I was there for 10 years. Um and there right after they were born, pretty much. My son was one and my other son was four. Two kids? Two kids, two boys. Um, I moved from New Bern back to Raleigh. Okay. And I've been in the Raleigh Carey area ever since.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

What brought you to Newburn? Which is beautiful down there by the way.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Uh my their father was from Newburn. Okay. I met him at the beach. Okay. And we um we got married and decided to settle in his hometown. And so I had my children there. And then uh in 1992, um, we went I went through a divorce, and I had very, very young children, four, and not even one.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

And so I came back home because my parents were still living in Raleigh. So I had my own place, but I wanted to be nearly close to your family.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

Yes. A four-year-old and a one-year-old. Yes. And a single mom.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yes. Huff. It was, it was a big job, but we were the three musketeers. So we we were really tight and and we had so many good times, and I'm so so grateful for all those years that um they were four years apart and they died four years apart. So at 24.

unknown 6:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Tell me about the boys, four and one. What yes, oldest one's name?

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Stevens. And I named Stephen after uh my oldest brother. Uh his name was Stephen Curtis Hoyle. And his brother was born four years later, Michael Neal Hoyle. And Stephen was wide open. He he was he was absolutely, and he would be happy to for me to tell you this. He was ADHD. He said it made him who he was. Okay, he embraced he was he embraced it. Okay, good. He was wide open. And and he uh I always knew because he didn't sleep that well at night, uh, he he kept me very busy jumping for the time he was born, um, for his whole life, really. And I always knew that uh he he had more energy and and more going on in that head of his than most people that I dealt with. And it was it was no real surprise when uh his kindergarten teacher said, You really need to talk about him with the doctor because he cannot stay in his seat at school. And he's he gets so excited and anxious, and he's a sweet kid, but he is wide open. So that was Stephen.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

That was Stephen. Then Michael was four years younger.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

He was four years younger.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

What was he like?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

He was more a lot calmer than his brother. He he was more laid back. Um, it was it was a pretty interesting combination. He really looked up to his brother. He did not really remember because he was so young when I went through my divorce, that he didn't really remember living with his dad. Okay. Um, so Stephen became not only his older brother, but Stephen became a mentor.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

I got you.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

He really looked up to him. That that three years, nine months, almost four years was just uh just enough that he saw him as knowing everything. Yeah, you know, he was grown.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

How'd they get along?

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Um, most of the time they were they were they're brothers, though. Right, yeah, come on. Most of the time, very respectful, really, really loved each other. You knew they had each other's back because if somebody else said something about it, they were all in.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

They could say something to each other, but you can't say to your brother.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

But absolutely, they had the brother thing where they just really would uh you know go at it from time to time.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

So I got I got daughters, I got four daughters, and I've always been told like girls when they fight, it's more this guys, boys when they're fighting, it gets physical.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

That is very true.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

But they're ramroding around the house and you're trying to handle stuff. And you're in the banking industry, so you're uh how how long had you been doing uh that a long time.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Um I actually first started with BBNT, the oldest bank in North Carolina uh at the time. It's not here now, but I started with sponsored by Truist. I started with them in New Bern in in 1984. So my my son uh was born in 1987. So BBT had been in my life longer than my children. So it was just a career. Uh I had been doing it for many, many years.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

You enjoyed it?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Um, I did enjoy it. It was it was everything I knew. I went to school and business. Um, I just uh I I just found it very interesting. And I was in downtown New Bern and I I loved the people. I loved who I worked with.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

It was everything, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Yeah, it felt like family. Oh it really did. And it was a small town. Um I was from Raleigh, but being there was different. And so you really you could go to the drugstore or the grocery store and you could see your boss. And and so we really connected and I I felt like it was not just work, it was it was just uh it was it was my life. My my mine, I I absolutely loved to go.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

You transferred up to Raleigh to be around your folks, yes, and um how old are the kids at that point that four and one four and one at that point in time. Yeah, and you're still working for BBT up there.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yes, they um helped me transfer because they actually knew what I was going through. Okay, and they they really did help me.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Wow, um I was kind of rare, huh?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yes, I I I'll never forget it. A wonderful man, what he's retired now, but he did really well with BBNT, Ricky Brown. He was my boss down in New Bern, and he was just like, we'll do whatever we can. And my file ended up on somebody's desk in Raleigh, and they called me and I came for an interview, got a job, sold my house, bought another house, and I mean they helped me go through that transition.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

So I'm sure at that time it was pretty overwhelming. It was a lot.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

It was because I was uh brand new mom. Um, my my youngest one was uh he he was uh not even one. So yeah, it was it was it was I was scared. I was scared of what it was gonna be like to be a single mom.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

I just want to set it up that like it when you say three musketeers, you know, in the counseling I do that a lot of times when divorce happens, that group that's left over, mom and some kids, can just get so close. It's so close. Yes, and it sounds like it was just the three of you, and I'm sure that connection was so strong. And um now they're growing up, and you're a single mom, they're in Raleigh. Um school's a little challenging for your oldest. Uh as they're starting to kind of grow up, get older, taking them to the doctor, ADHD comes out. Yeah. Were you able to kind of manage that through medication?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Was the the absolutely great question? Um I I would do things differently if I was doing it.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

But it's hindsight, right? You you know, you don't know what you don't know. Don't know what you don't know. I didn't really know about ADHD. I just knew that Stephen was wide open. Sure. And so they did the whole, you need to go to the doctor, you need to get him um evaluated. Um, and and it's like a score. And it comes back with these higher numbers if you're if you're ADHD. And so I had to fill something out, the doctor had to fill something out, and it came back that he was absolutely, I mean, on the score as far as paperwork meant.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

No doubt, leave no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

He is ADHD. And if you don't have him on some kind of medical, and he is you're gonna get a call by 10 a.m. at work, at the bank, and they're gonna say, you know, he's acting out. True. That really was the way it was.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Um there and at that time there wasn't time release, and so everybody knew who was dealing with uh ADHD because there were lines at the office of kids that had to go at lunchtime because they'd take it in the morning, the four-hour window was over, they had to go in. Um hadn't thought about that in a long time.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

But kind of stigmatizing in a way, huh?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

I think it was for Stephen. I think yeah, because he would say, you know, I feel like that everybody thinks that I'm so different. Right. And he and what the medication was, he was born in 1987, so we're talking about, you know, a lot of years ago now. But he said that the medication made him feel like he just didn't have his energy, that he wasn't himself. It made him feel, you know, almost even at that young age. Yeah, he would tell me that and he just didn't like it. But if he didn't take it, they knew immediately because he he was back to where I was. Back to Steven, though. Yeah, that was Stephen, right? That is who he was.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

He would he really was the answer back then was stimulants, give him just load them up with with Ritalin or whatever. Yes, and and yes, that's how we solve this, and you better do it, or it's almost child abuse.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And now when I talk to my clients, I'm jumping way ahead. But now when I talk to them and I go over mental health, what have you been diagnosed for? And they say ADHD. They say it's like my phone calls from from the helpline, uh, my counseling, all of that. I just as I'm writing it down, I always remember, I always think back of how what a game changer that was. What what a what a it was a difficult process. Right. It it was a difficult process for my son. Um and it is a stimulant.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

So if you're not ADHD and somebody knows you're standing in line, and true story uh from my own life, but if they know you're standing in line, they know that you have access to riddling.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

And they won't riddling if they want a stimulant. Right. And so they come up to you, and this is when you get into middle school. This doesn't necessarily well, I don't know. It could even be happening in grade school, sure. It could. Yeah. But I do know it happened with my son. Wow. I do. Because he told me, he shared with me. He said, I'll get the his person came up to him and said, I'll give you this joint for if you can get me in middle school. In in middle schools. And it opened it opened doors to places really quickly that may not have been opened had he not been on a stimulant.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Let's pause for a second because that's so huge. I I it just I don't know that I've thought about that, that that could be happening inside of a school where they know they're getting a stimulant. I want that, I'll trade you some weed for that. Yeah. You and I talked about Dreamland and how both of us had Sam Kinones. He he opened up for me like a world that I never even knew existed when he talked about the opioid epidemic and how uh this perfect storm came together of the pain scale that the VA released, and and that the only subjective piece of the pain scale, which was what's your pain tolerance? Or, you know, uh one to ten. Yeah, or of the vitals, yeah, the only subjective part of the vital check, you know, blood pressure and all that stuff. But those are things you could measure. But pain scale is like I'm a 10 every time, just so I can get what I need, right? And um, so and of course the Sacklers, uh, black tar heroin, but that piece that says, like, this is prescribed medication that the doctor is being told you have to give this to your client. If they're a high level on the pain scale and you don't give them opioids, if you don't give them oxycontin, then you could almost be sued for malpractice. Right. And so it's that same pressure. It feels just like all that pressure to go prescribe, prescribe, and and then the opioid epidemic just blows up because of that of that legal prescribed drug being misused and used and dealt. And uh so I I it just seems like there's a problem with prescription medication. So I never thought about that before. And so Steven is experiencing very early on, that's gotta be confusing too. Kindergarten well, the drug dealing, middle school drug dealing, and then that, yeah, which is like it'd be a little confusing to go like my doctor prescribed this to me, but I can't use it for other purposes. I just yeah, I never thought about that before.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, and for me too, having two boys, Steven was diagnosed ADHD in kindergarten. In second grade, Michael was diagnosed ADD, not ADHD, but ADD. And the medicines had already shifted. I mean, the the the prescription meds change as you go along, learn more, things change. Doctors, you know, feel like other things are better. Um, so when it came time for Michael, the the new prescribed wasn't the Ritalin anymore, it was Adderall. So it was a stimulant, still a stimulant, but it was a new thing. And I never I'll never forget when Michael first took his first um Adderall. I was we were out of town for the weekend and he felt so sick. And I remember thinking back on that now because I wanted to see how it worked for him before he went to school. And I remember thinking about that, thinking maybe that was a sign that I should have just said for you know, I don't want to do that. But I did not want to put him at a disadvantage in school and pressure.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

More pressure.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

It was more pressure. So I had two sons, and I remember crying when they told me Michael was ADD. I was like, oh my gosh, I've been through this ADHD thing with Steven, and it's been challenging. And now Michael, and I I just remember I was very emotional.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

Well, these are all the professionals, the school, the doctors, they're all telling you this is what you need to do. And so I I hear what you're saying is like maybe if I could hindsight do things differently, but at the time it's just if you don't do those things, you're a bad mom.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, it and and uh it was the popular, it seemed like with those lines at school, it the the popular choice. Okay, it's better for them to be able to focus, get their homework done, pass that exam, do you know, do the things that they need to do to be successful than it is to say question it.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Yeah, let me think about this. Let me think about this.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

And honestly, I did get that phone call, especially with Steven because of the hyper component. Michael was more laid back, so I didn't have those.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

So I had a hard time focusing.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

But had a hard time focusing.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

So you're doing this all by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah, and and being a single mom is challenging.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

It's and and I've thought you never go into having children and a family thinking that that's gonna be how it's gonna turn out. No way. You you don't you go into it full, yeah, fully you're gonna be doing this with your partner, you're gonna be um ha handling these kinds of things together. Um so that was a challenge in itself. Sorry. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

So now middle school's happening. It sounds like if Steven is trading his stimulant for marijuana, then he's starting to smoke some weed, he's starting to get involved with some and that was the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

That was the case.

SPEAKER_04 21:16

So how early um did that start, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

So middle school, uh sixth, seventh, eighth grade. Um I I I think it I think it was seventh grade. I think it was the second year in middle school that that when that first started happening.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

You know this because he told you later.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Later he told me. Okay. Later he told me. But I did start, even in middle school, I did start seeing some challenges with um with Steven.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Some behavior.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Some some behavior challenges. Um we our relationship was actually always good. He loved his mama and he uh like I said, always. Would have my back always. Don't don't talk funny to my mama. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

He's kind of the man of the house, or at least he thought he was. At least he thought he was. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yes, absolutely. But I did see behavioral changes in friends, changes in what he wanted to do. He had been very, very committed. He did all the years. We were really involved with Cub Scouts, and we went through all of the Cub Scouts. And then during that time, you go over into Boy Scouts and he bridged over and all of that. But then he started losing interest in continuing on with that. And it had always been a really big thing with him. I mean, we went every Wednesday night over a little church and carry. He wanted to be there. And he wanted to be there. It was his choice to start. And we always called his younger brother who had to go with us to the meetings. I was like a co-leader of his Cub Scouts, but we always called him our mascot. Even before he did it himself. But those things that we did that were routine, that were weekly, those things were, and there were many besides Cub Scouts, but the the activities that we did that he thoroughly enjoyed, not so much anymore by the time the whole shift of middle school came along.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

So you're kind of seeing uh uh some behavioral challenges. I don't know if the school's calling, or you're having you know, these new friends coming over, or he's he's disappearing, or um, or maybe all of the above is happening. What's going on with his younger brother at that time? Because he's looking up. He's watching.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Right, he's watching everything. Yeah, and he's questioning everything. And he also at second grade been diagnosed ADD, and he was feeling some kind of way about himself. And he he actually could really do well uh in school, but um, but it was almost like um his focus would get off and he would maybe s say something to a neighbor, you know, in the classroom and get in trouble for that. So it was that attention or lack of you know, being able uh focusing on everything instead of one thing, one thing. And I I learned that I needed to really learn more about ADD and AD.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

That's your nature, isn't it? Like you're gonna deep dive and start learning about this stuff and research and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

And so I did I did. I went and took a a class, a doctor that was ADHD actually taught taught it. Yeah, I mean they went off. They had they had one off. And what what really I still remember, John, to this day about that, that really, really uh made me think about how hard it would be to be a kid with ADD or ADHD, is that the doctor had us read um a paragraph as adults in a classroom that had the the like for dyslexia or whatever, it had the letters change, but it had things written in a way that a person that's mind is going too fast or not able to really focus in on it the way they would see it.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Like the ADD or ADHD mind.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yes, would see those that paragraph. And we had to read it in front of all of the other adults in the room.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

And it was challenging to read it, and I felt I felt out of I didn't have control over what was coming out of I felt insecure and I was an adult and I felt insecure.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Strategy.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yes, it was very effective. And that was one thing I learned from that class. Another thing I learned is he said, stop telling your children to put on their socks and shoes. Just tell them, put on your socks. And when they get their socks on, say, put on your shoes. I had never thought about that. And he was using that as an example of break it down. You know, don't put so much in there that they're, you know, they are overwhelmed with all these instructions you're giving them.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

So just again, we're gonna shoot forward, but like as a substance use counselor, um, you see how dual diagnosis is that comorbidity of going like this thing, ADD, ADHD, how it can contribute to some other things to just cope, just to deal with it. Yeah. And so you're you're able to empathize and say, man, this is harder than I thought it was for these guys. And what I'm like, hey man, put your socks and shoes on. Like that could be any of us would be like, all right, let's put our socks and shoes on. That's a huge challenge. And then when that challenge hits you and you don't feel like you're successful, I mean, all of that, what does that lead to? Insecurity, feelings of inadequacy, you know, um, not good enough or not smart enough, not all that not worthy, which I think is at the bottom of all of it, the root of every hurt habit and hang up is that feeling I just don't have value or worth. Yes, yes. And he so that's already started with both of them.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:56

So high school hit. Stephen's heading into high school. Where are we at with high school?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah, it things were getting uh with Stephen, things were getting pretty challenging. Um for for Stephen, for Steven, some a lot of his friends, the choices of the people that he would got really connected with. Um, I feel like that in some ways he felt less than because of the ADHD, because of that diagnosis, because of having trouble with getting good grades in school, having having trouble with all of those things. And so he overcompensated it with being cool. You know, you know, I'm so he started and he and he was cool. He he really was cool, but he started having friends that didn't necessarily have his best interests at heart, didn't necessarily um have the the the bet be the best of Steven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Um I think that cool thing too is kind of like when thing you you have choices. Either this thing that I'm challenged with is gonna matter to me. And if it matters to me, then I have to work through it, I have to like grapple with it, I have to and when I'm grappling with it, I'm gonna fail. But having this other side where you just go, I don't care, even though you care a lot. Yes. If I just say I don't care, then things just all of a sudden are really easy. Well, why what's the matter with your grades? I just don't care.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, right? Like that's yes, and that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Right. Instead of going like this, I what they're really saying, it's I really care, but I just it's just too much. Yeah, too hard, but I don't want to act like it's hard. I'm just gonna be like, right. That's just the easier way. A lot of high schoolers, I think a lot of kids are just they'll take that tack because it's just too hard to care. Yes. Does that sound like it does?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

And I think I have to throw in there, you know, he he loved his mom, but I believe every child, even though life doesn't always afford it, every child really needs a mom and a dad. Yeah. And they really do need that. It's really, really hard for one woman not to make any excuses for myself at all. But it's really, really hard for one woman to be everything.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I'm glad you're saying I am so because that's giving yourself some grace. It's not making excuses, it's an explanation. You're sharing like this is what happened. It was just, it's not the way it's supposed to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

And this just popped in my head, so I have to share it. I was at the bus stop one morning with Michael, and he this is profound to me, and I'll never forget it. He said, You know, mom, we were just waiting for the bus in the car. It was cold. He said, You know, mom, you're a really good mom, and I really appreciate everything that you do for me. But it's too bad that you don't have a line right here in the middle of your face, and you could be dad here and mom here. And he was young, and I was looking at him as he said that, and I was like, Mike, that is powerful. Wow, that is so powerful, and it must have been powerful to me because I'm telling you about it. I don't talk about that every day, but I'm telling you about it all these years later because I could not be that.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Right. And they need a dad.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

They need a dad. They need and they had a dad, but he did not live in the same town. Right. He was on call a lot, he wasn't able to be there very often, he was very, very busy. And so I don't want to discredit him in any way. It was just not ideal.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

It was not ideal, not ideal. It was not ideal. And they told you it's not ideal at a very young age.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

At a very young age, yeah. Wow. Yeah. So that's I think the challenge of ADHD, ADD, single mom. I have to put that in there. For sure. It's just reality. True. It's just true. Um, and and just uh me not being able, I had to work. I absolutely had to work. Not that I did I didn't love my work, but I I had uh a lot of hours, a lot of uh a lot of things to take care of, a lot of things to do. And so I was trying to balance being there at the Cub Scouts, soccer, flag football, and work.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Yeah, I I've gotten to know you a little bit. I don't know you this well, and I I'm gonna poke just a teeny bit. And so I I work a lot with with uh women, generally women who um are struggling with codependency, trying to love their son or husband or somebody through difficult maybe an addiction situation or other trouble that they might be having. And a lot of times moms have this guilt if they're single moms where I've already put my child even if it wasn't you, we or me, I've already put my child through so much already. They've had to deal with divorce. Now they have ADD, ADHD. And so a lot of times moms have a hard time then pushing their kids. Yes, disciplining them, doing things that hurt to actually help them, like not allowing them to have certain things. Or so I don't know if you experienced any of that. It's just such a tough situation not to kind of get into that space rate. Like they've already gone through so much. I don't want to that's so true be too hard on my kids when sometimes that's an enabling behavior. I don't know if did you experience that at all?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Absolutely, absolutely. And in in the hindsight, in the looking back, um, I tried to overcompensate, I tried to make sure that they were involved in it. Yeah, that's why I brought up the Cubs case. It was important to me. Stephen wanted to do it, it was his idea, but it was important to me to make time to do that. It was important to me to be at those soccer practices, it was important to me when they had the day where moms could come in to the school, right? To be there. So I those were all good things, and all moms were going to do those, of course. But I think I overextended myself. I think I went really, really hard because I felt like that they were had been so disadvantaged by not having their dad there, by not having um the experience of just the full rounded family that I had anticipated for them when they were born.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

Yeah, that's hard on you. You're probably stretched so thin that you're see-through. And the kids are just expecting now that you have to do all those things.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Right? That now they're like, well, that's what you're supposed to do. And they might get a little upset if you're like, I can't, that's just too much. But that's what you you've built that expectation, super mom. And if you can't fulfill that, you feel horrible. They're maybe a little bratty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Because they get, well, you get used to right. You get used to it. That's what mom's supposed to do. And she's she's there for it. She is the person.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

So you're feeling all that pressure that you've just gotta be super mom all the time. Now your son's starting to kind of unravel a little bit. It just that's what I think builds up that responsibility. Like, I I feel so responsible for what's happening right now. And of course, as a mom, you you want to fix it for all kinds of reasons, but that that pressure, like, is this on me? Is this you know, I've had a couple of people in here who've who've gone through similar things that you've gone through, loss of of of uh sons and daughters, and they'll say, like, I just felt like this is on me, this is my fault in a way, you know. And so as Stephen is starting to kind of unravel, spiral a bit, um, was that a part of the struggle for you? Is feeling that responsibility?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah, I mean, I just felt so bad that with the opportunities that I felt were out there and the the way that I wanted things to go for him, that they were unraveling. And I had people tell me that I talked to good, good friends, good support system, good people say, don't forget to keep looking at Michael because you're spending a lot of time looking at things unraveling with Steven.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Because he's just so it's just so big, it's blow like these explosions.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yes, and and Michael at that point was pretty laid back and he was, you know, still kind of doing his thing. Don't forget, because if he sees all of the attention going over there, and that stuck with me. So I was still trying to further let's make sure Mike gets to that birthday party say her day.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

You know, let's read it.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Just just it was a lot. It was and your foot time working, and you're yeah, what yeah, it was I was always busy, and I I want to give my parents credit. My father's no longer with us, but my father was a great support system, great, great man. Lost him in 2020. He was there for me and he loved my boy. Sure. And and he he really was actively engaged.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Grandparents are so huge. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

And so, in a lot of ways, uh Stephen actually said one time they lived on a farm uh after my dad retired and went out back to Oxford. It's important for this reason. Lots of land, lots of place to run around, white fences to be washed, you know, all this kind of stuff. And Stephen said that the summer that he stayed, because he went out there because I was having trouble handling everything. The summer that he stayed out there with his grandfather was one of the best times of his entire life. And those are his words. Wow. So I had I did have help. I did beautiful. Yeah, and that's a good memory. That's a good memory.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

So high school, how how bad did things get with Steven and through things got pretty bad.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

He ended up not finishing. We were in Cary. He ended up not finishing at Kerry um high. And he ended up going and getting his GED um and starting to work.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And and I was proud of him for because he was a hard worker. He did jump into work. He did, he did, he did construction and all that. He's he um felt like at that time that he he could would just go nuts behind a desk. He just had to be moving.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

Outside. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Outside, had to be moving, had to be doing things. And his boss told me um during those years that he was working with him, his the final boss that he actually worked with that talked to me when he passed away. He he said he was an extremely hard worker. He said we had a lot of um things to pick up one day, and we were taking them one at a time. And I looked, and Stephen had a whole stack of them like over his head growing in with them. And I was like, oh my gosh, that guy is not afraid of work. So I was proud of him because he did give those things a lot of energy.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

And I think sometimes I remember watching a TED talk on it, like ADHD sometimes is diagnosed in somebody who is like, they're just school's not necessarily going to be their thing, right? That that maybe they're just designed to be more active, to be in the trades, to be like, and so you try to wedge them into this academic world where they're like, I'm just not built that way. I need to move, man. I need to dance or run or or work or whatever. And so saying, well, that's a that's a problem. It's probably in in one ways, uh maybe in a lot of ways, it was Steven's strength, is that he was just like, Go, I gotta go.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Yes, he was wide open. And and uh it all leads into, you know, he actually died from gun shot. He was shot and killed. Um, but if you look at what happened with that for the final hour of his life, if you really look at it, um it's his ADHD showed up big time because he was being robbed. And most people, I I really think he'd be cool with me saying this, most people would say, take it. Yeah, right. And Stephen's exact words that came out in court were you really don't think I'm gonna let you walk out of here with my money, do you? And he jumped him, and so they were fighting. Oh my goodness, and he had a gun, and it ended up costing him his life. But I always said, because the person that shot him didn't know him at all, but I always said if that person that shot him had really knew him, he'd have known he was a wrong person or not because he he didn't process he's got a gun, he's might shoot me. He just he just did what he always did, he was always on go. Yeah, he was always that way.

SPEAKER_04 39:37

So how how old was he when when he was 24?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah. He was 24. Yeah, and he um he was in an extended stay in Raleigh.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Um and he was working a job with the same boss I was just talking about, and they were in Wake Forest, and he had found on Craigslist a truck that he wanted to buy in Fayetteville, and he had gotten the cash money to go buy that truck, and it wasn't a very expensive truck. I believe if memory serves, it was$2,100, but it was just a work truck, something he was gonna use to haul all those things around that they used. Um, and he was gonna do that. And the man that um ultimately shot him learned that he had that cash money from someone that did know Stephen, uh, that had been over at the extended stay the night before. And he said he's got cash and he's by himself, he's staying there, and so it was kind of set up um that they would go over there and they went over there at six o'clock in the morning. Um on a Thursday morning. I was at work um that day, so I didn't know about it until the end of the day. But um, they went over there and the one that had been there the night before said that he had forgotten something. I believe it was a cell phone, but that part wasn't real clear in court, doesn't matter. Um, so Stephen let them in. He wasn't prepared for anything because he was in black socks, boxers, and a wife beater, as they uh I mean, he was not prepared for the day at all. He just got out of bed and he let he he let the person he knew knew in, and then the other person rushed in that he didn't know that had the gun and he just told him he wanted his money. So it was a robbery that went really, really wrong. And Stephen pointed to the book bag and which is where the money was, and he took it and he was gonna leave. He was gonna leave. But that's when Stephen made his comment. You don't really think I would let you just walk out of here with my money, do you? And I know he didn't think it through. I knew I knew him so well. And and he was he was all about you don't get disrespected. He would say that all the time.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

You know, how did you find out?

SPEAKER_02 42:12

When I was at work, 29th floor, BBT, downtown Raleigh, I got a phone call from my husband. I'm remarried. Um got remarried when they were um 18 and 14. So I was single mom until almost 14 years.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Um I got a phone call and they couldn't give me any information. They just said I needed to come home. And so I knew, John, I knew it wasn't gonna be good. I knew it was gonna be about one of my boys. I didn't know which boy, I didn't know what was going on, but I knew. I just knew from the tone and everything that it was serious. I I I knew it was, and I thought maybe it was uh getting arrested. You know, you can't really, you know, but it was something bad.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

You knew it.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

I I knew it was something bad. Um, and so I got home and the homicide detective was in my living room. Um and so I came in and I remember I was carrying a pocketbook. It's it's funny the things you remember that Stephen gave me. It was a pocketbook he had gave me as a gift, and I was carrying that, and as they told me, um, I'm sorry to let you know, um, but your son Stephen um uh has um been murdered and he's no longer with us. And I remember dropping that pocketbook. You know, it's just it's just so so weird the things that come to your mind.

SPEAKER_04 43:40

And so drilled in memory.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah, drilled in, just dropping that purse on the floor and sitting down. And the horrible thing about homicide, violent homicide particularly, is what I'm talking about. The horrible thing about it is that they aren't often at liberty to tell you very Many details. And as a mom, you want to know what happened to my boy, right? You, you even today, it's like I wanted to know what happened. And I was having all of these visuals of what could have happened to him, you know, really bad stuff. And they just said, you know, we're we're we're not at liberty to tell you. He's I said, Well, where is he? And they said he's at the medical examiner's office. It was just bits, bits, pieces of, you know, where we were. And he ended up giving me his card and saying, we're investigating it. We have some pretty good leads. Um, well, you know, but it it was business. It I mean, he he was kind enough, right, but he couldn't tell me. Um, and I didn't know until I got the death certificate, which just simply read, because I went to the funeral home, it simply read that he was shot in the shoulder. And then I had two months of thinking he was shot in the shoulder, he couldn't call me, he was laying on the floor because the cleaning lady, when they came in that morning, they found him. So I had I had a lot of uh trauma with um just the whole thing of You have to fill in the blanks. I had to fill in the blanks, and I didn't really know. But I kept calling for the um autopsy, and I learned a lot in the process, and I've I think I've helped some people with homicide since.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

Um because it is so vague and just like you have to advocate to get anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

You you really do. Um, but anyway, on the uh autopsy, it said that he was shot once in the shoulder, went through his arm, and then it re-entered his body. And so, not to be overly graphic, but it made me process what happened in a whole different way. It wasn't just getting shot in the shoulder and bleeding out on the floor, it was literally a very fatal shot. And then on the way out the door, he was laying on the floor and they shot him in the back. So my son didn't suffer in the way that I have been thinking about it, been thinking about it for two months, two months it took me to get that. Now it's even longer. I mean, a good friend of mine, DA, Lauren Freeman, I consider her a dear friend. She worked with me at with at the um NC Van, North Carolina Victims Assistant Network, and and talked with me about the backlog and all the things that have that go on with homicide. And I began to understand it, but it is not a road that you understand at all, unless you work in the criminal justice system, it is not a road that you understand until you get thrown into it. So you're grieving and processing and learning you can't grieve, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Not fully because you don't know what happened. And then you learn new information.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah, yeah. And it comes out in pieces. And when they told me, they being the homicide detective as well as the assistant DA that was working his case, when they told me what was going on um in detail about court, that was in June, and he died January 26, 2012. So there was a lot of gap between just having to sit down in the courthouse to talk about this and where we're going with this. Um, but I did learn within 24 hours who shot him because they had video from the extended stay. I mean, they could see him. It was they were on the camera. It wasn't planned out. I mean, it was gonna be a robbery, it wasn't gonna be a murder, and it it just went bad. It went bad. It went bad.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Out of this, and I'd love to hear more about your process, but out of this, you did you said kind of get to a place where you're like, I want to help other people with what I experienced here. It just the system throws you into this it was heavy washing machine of insanity where you can't figure out you know what happened, you're trying to process this horrible event, but at the same time you can't process it because you don't know exactly what happened. So, you how did you get involved with helping other victims?

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Like when did that I didn't know NC Van existed? Great question, thank you for asking. I didn't know that they existed, didn't know anything about them. Started calling around, looking around. I wanted to get involved, I wanted to learn, I wanted to be connected. And I and I couldn't find anything, John. I couldn't. But then I found out on September 25th of that year. So we are talking about nine months later. I was Googling, and it was September 25th is Remembrance Day for Murder Victims. I didn't know. I didn't have I didn't have a clue. I had never even heard of that day. But that's every year in the whole country, September 25th.

unknown 49:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

So I saw it, and I saw that there was a basement in Durham at a church, and they were having an event. And so I texted my husband and I said, I'm not gonna be home.

SPEAKER_04 49:19

I'm going to this thing. I'm going to the basement of this church.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I'm going to the basement of this church. So here we are in Raleigh, where we have plenty of homicide, right? But I couldn't find anything here. Right. So I went to Durham. And Durham, um their homicide is talked about more on the media and all of that. I'm not, I I that's too much to get into. Exactly. But right, I ended up in this basement of this church in in Durham, and this wonderful woman came up to me, and her son was shot and killed in Durham a number of years prior to the event. And she was a little bit older than me. She was very, very comforting to me. And she asked me why I was there, and I told her, and I felt like she was like my new best friend.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Oh, right there. Right there on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Mina Hampton. She she has passed since, and she passed in her 90s. She spent her entire life helping people with something called Parents of Murdered Children's Durham chapter. All kinds of people from all walks of life that had their loved ones taken by violence. She helped and she helped me. She helped me.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

How important is that?

SPEAKER_02 50:34

That is so important.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

That is so important you didn't probably even know until you just met that.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

For sure, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

She inspired you.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

She inspired me. I saw how much she did, how much she loved, how much pe how many people she had helped, all because she lost her Tommy to gun violence and she wanted to get back. She wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

So you're like seeing how in pretty short time, how much support means to people, and you get involved with that, you're seeing how like maybe in one small area, how this horrible event can possibly be a way for you to help other people. Yes. Um, because you're watching somebody else. Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

And why does Durham have something and Raleigh doesn't? Is what I was thinking. Because I know things are going on in Raleigh. My son just got killed in Raleigh. And I and it changed me. That was like one of the chapters in my last, you know, 14 years that really, really changed me.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

A light bulb kind of went on there. Indeed.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

My Michael was still with me. Michael was uh beginning to struggle, and that's that's grief. Grief is a monster.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

It is a monster.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

And he was just at 20. You don't know what to do with it. He was just at 20, and he just lost his mentor, his brother, his person.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

Now, back did now in high school, was was he kind of on that same track as far as like getting into some trouble, starting to use that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 51:58

He he was on the track of smoking weed. Okay. For sure. No question about it. Um introduced in much the same way as his brother, Adderall.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yes, that's that's the story. I mean, and he had no reason not to talk to me about it.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

No, that's unreal.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

I mean, he was just a young, he was very young. Yeah, yeah. Very young. Um, but he wasn't, he, he wasn't poly substance, he wasn't into anything else. He he it was weed. Smoking weed. He was smoking weed. Um, neither one of them, alcohol was a thing.

SPEAKER_04 52:32

He did he did he get through high school?

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Did he uh through it? He he actually also got his GED. He they both of my sons got their GED. Um, both of them had struggles with high school um on a lot of levels, on a lot of levels. Um but I I want to circle back just for a second about there is something in Raleigh for homicide, so I don't want to miss that. Um homicide since 1984, um, Dick Adams started what's called the North Carolina Victims Network after the murder of his child. And it is here, but knowing it is here and it being here are two different so Durham had a chapter. They had a parents of murdered children chapter. Okay, but that's all over the country.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

And Raleigh, you didn't think anything existed, but something had something did exist, but I didn't know about it. Couldn't find it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

And that's a big part of my mission because I still am heavily involved with NC Ban. I do I I actually work for them too.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Of course you I mean, I I worked for them doing um homicide support groups and opioid loss support groups because my two worlds collided. Yeah, that's the whole thing. But anyway, I was walking downtown Raleigh working at BBT. I walked every day at lunch. I I I need to do more of that, but uh but I was walking and I saw this garden beside the legislature building and with bricks with names engraved on them. And this was after September of 2012 when I was telling you about meeting Mana Hampton in Durham. It was like 2013.

SPEAKER_04 54:08

So about a year later, after you've been to the Durham group and been working with those guys, you walk by this garden and I start looking at the names and I recognize because some of them were hope high profile, we had heard them names.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

I recognize they were names of people that had been murdered in the state since 19, whenever. I mean, if you had a loved one that had been murdered since 1984, they've been putting bricks in this garden, and it's right beside the legislature building. It's the NC Van Memorial Garden. And as soon as I saw it, I started reading the about when it started, and and I went back to work and made a phone call. Elizabeth Watson, who is currently their executive director to right now, today, she answered the phone and I told her who I was about my son, and I told her that I had been looking for some support and I did not know that anything in Raleigh existed. And she said, We do. And she began to tell me what NC Van provides. Wow. And and one of the things they provide is every December, there's a visual, and it isn't it used to be at the Capitol, but it is now behind the legislature or right beside the legislature. Um every spring and April, there's a a week that's called Crime Rights Victims Week. Speakers, um, you know, people that that we know in in this, um, you know, Donnie Harrison came and spoke one time when he was a sheriff, you know, people that we know that are involved in the criminal justice system speak. Um, and so I didn't know it, but it existed. But what didn't what what didn't they have was a home a homicide support group.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

They didn't have okay. They had the organization.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

The organization, they had the events, but they didn't have the group. And she asked me if I felt like that that was needed. And if I did, would I be interested in facilitating it?

SPEAKER_04 56:01

That's pretty soon after.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

It in January of 2014, we started the first homicide support group. And I've been doing I I stepped back when Stephen when my excuse me, when Michael died in 2016, I stepped back. I just said I need to sit here, I don't need to facilitate. And I did that, and and a a a wonderful person came in and did it for for two years you you let. I did it until um Mike passed. And then after Mike passed, I still participated, but I didn't facilitate it. But for the last several years now, I've been facilitating the homicide support group and what they had. They have one a month for opioid support loss. And the reason that happened, you can probably guess. But North Carolina passed that law about death by distribution with fentanyl. And so people that were impacted by that started coming there. That type of death is very, very different from violent homicide, as you know, as you anyone would suspect. It's just very, very different. And so those two didn't really do well in the same group. That's right. Because you've got you've got folks, you know, that really lost somebody very extremely violently and they need their own space. Yep. And then you've got folks that have lost somebody, um, whether it was from one pill can kill, accidental fentanyl showed up in a Xanax, you know, whether it was that or whether they it was an overdose from a, you know, an active uh long-term use that they got too much of that.

SPEAKER_04 57:38

To be able to be in a group where somebody identifies with your struggle in a more specific way is a very good thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

So they broke off and made the opioid support group, and they said it made sense for me to do both because I lost one child in each area. And so my two worlds literally collided when when that happened. And I was like, I would have never dreamed that I would be with working for NC Van doing support groups for something that was because of Michael and something that was because of Steven.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

So walk us through what happened with Michael. So Michael's trying to work through some grief. He uh what what what did he do after school?

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Um well Michael um was only he was right at 20 when all of this happened, and it was a game changer. It was completely, completely different for him. Um he worked um several different jobs, he worked at Jasmine's, um he he he did several different things um in fast food. He he kind of jumped around. He was trying out different things, he was trying to sort of find his way. Um, but he um did finally get to where he felt like that he was ready to move out. Um that wasn't very long before his brother died, and get his own place and get a couple of roommates and all of those, you know, just grow up. He said, I just need to, you know, it was his idea, you know. I'm it's it's time. It's time for me to do something. Um, and he and he was really um he was really working towards uh he I need to get it together. I need I need I need to do more than what I'm doing. And he felt that he he felt that and and he he went to Wake Tech. Okay, and he was taking some classes out there and he had finished his GED out there, you know, he was he was doing some things. Um was pushing him. Something was pushing him. Um and but he hung out with his brother. I mean, even though they were four years apart, they they were fit, they they they were connected. Um a lot of people assume since I lost both that Stephen had a substance use disorder, but he did not. He didn't. And it's important for me to say that because Michael said, as he shared with me that he had a substance use disorder, that if Stephen was back here, that he would beat his butt. Right. I'm just not saying it exactly like what he said, right? But he did say that he because he knew that that would that would have been something that Stephen would not have signed off on with his brother. He would have been really, really concerned about it. He would have really wanted him to do something about it. Um, he might have smoked some pot. He he might have done some things.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:34

Michael went to another level.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Michael went to a whole new level.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:38

Did it happen around the the time that the grief, or was it already starting up?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

I can I I know exactly. Um, I I watched it unfold. Three months, May 17th, 2012, after his brother died, he was arrested for the first time for a large bag of pot. I I I know exactly what happened. It was a it was a traffic stop, and it was it was a large bag of pot. And so obviously he was selling, you know, he had a big bag of pot one. And when he got arrested, it was a felony. And I was like, oh my gosh, right? My son just died. It's three months later. My my baby now has a felony. And so my world, my world was we've got to put down the pot, we've got to get, we've got to work on preventing this felony because he didn't have priors. We we we are it's gonna ruin his life. Right. It's just gonna ruin his life, and that's that's all I could think about.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

That's where my head was. And I've never really taught, so thank you for this opportunity. I've never really taught this from start to finish before.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

May 17th, 2012. I I mean, I just remember everything about it. So he got put on probation. And when he got put on probation, and this this speaks to where we're going. When he got put on probation, THC stays in your system for like 30 days, right? You, you know, you can't really go see your probation officer and get tested and just say, Oh, yeah, no, I got I got a negative drug screen. I'm good. It's if you're smoking pot, it's gonna be there. And he knew that. Uh so all of a sudden, Michael didn't smell like pot anymore. I mean, pot is pretty hard to cover up, you know, and he would come over and I I'm just being transparent. I knew, you know, I knew he was smoking his pot. I I just it w there was no way he could hide that. But not that he was really trying to. No, it's just it was a thing, right? So he said, I'm not gonna be able to do it anymore. I'm gonna end up with these charges. I'm gonna end up in a lot of trouble. And he had an opportunity. He they gave him an opportunity. He had an opportunity to be able, if he could have negative drug screens, if he could do everything, if he could continue to work, if he could do the, you know, to continue what he wanted to do with school, if he was, if he could stay on track, if he could do all of those things, he could get it sponged.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

So we're going from no, you know, from a possibility of a felony to nothing. And I was all in.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:14

I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

I was all in, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

That's the let's do the happen. Yeah, and I was on him. I mean, I would even say, you know, you can stay with me the night before you have community service because he had some community service, and I'll cook you breakfast, you know, kick you in the call, anything it takes, right? Whatever you so I was very focused on that. But here's the thing it was three months after his brother died, he was grieving. He was really, really upset. Yeah, he was people would say, We began to lose Michael when we lost Stephen. That's a direct quote from friends.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

Um we began to lose Michael Stephen.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

That's a quote. I did not make that one up. And I and it's true. He didn't have the light in his eyes anymore. He missed his bro. You know, he was different. Um, he put post on Facebook about how we had a candle in the window for him. I could go on all day. It was hard on him. He was 20, you know, he was very young, and he was very, he was very shocked. And at one time, I don't think he ever had suicide ideation, but at one time he said, I just don't even know if I want to be in a world like this. He he was down. He he he really was. But what he learned was oxies, Roxy's, Oxycontin was on the street. It shifted right after this, the which led into his fatality. But at that time it was still they were still around. And what he learned is forgive me for Steve Michael for saying so much stuff, but what he learned is that he could take a Roxy and he could he his anxiety and his grief and all that he didn't feel any pain.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

He took his pain somewhere, yeah. And he wasn't gonna take it to THC. So he learned, and that became his new, you know, DOC. What whatever you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:12

A replacement for the weed that he can't smoke, stay away from that felony. But man, he's in so much pain.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

Right. But I'm not knowing about all this. I mean, I'm mom, right? I'm not really knowing what I just know he doesn't smell like potty anymore, and he's doing his community service, and he's he's doing in a way you're like, I'm thinking he's moving. I'm thinking we're gonna we're gonna get through this together. We're gonna work through our loss, our grief of this even together. Um, but really what had just happened is a tragedy because he told me, we get we got very close after it came out that he had a so-centuse disorder. He told me himself, oh my gosh, I would wake up and my legs, he said, first time I I thought I had the flu. And he said it was just a couple of weeks after he got into it. He said it was fast. He said I would wake up and my legs were hurting and I felt sick to my stomach and I didn't want to do anything. And he said it was so bad. And I went and talked to my friends. I was like, I think I have the flu. I really do. Dope sick. And they were like, you know what? You've been using those roxies. Take a roxy and see what happens. And he took a roxy and he didn't feel sick anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

That fast. He's getting dope sick. He's got and now it's just about not feeling sick anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

Now it's about not feeling sick. And being able to continue to do his community service or not get that just to function. Not not get in trouble. All of that. And so he asked me, he said, can I go, can I make an appointment with your primary physician and just talk to them? Because I don't really think he really still understood exactly what he what door he had just opened.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:54

So he told you that he was struggling.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

He told you that he's got me that something was happening and that he needed to see the doctor. And so I'm still I I'm pretty naive about everything. Sure, yeah. I don't know about Purdue. You know, I don't know about what's going on in the world, right? So he does. He goes to uh the doctor and he talks to him. And afterwards I'm on the phone with them. You know, what they say, what are they gonna do? Is there something they can give you? You know, because I'm always I'm still thinking that there's maybe a medication that's gonna help.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Yeah, it's just of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:26

Well, yeah, you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

And then I saw something I had never seen in Mike. He said, There is really nothing that they can do for me. I've got to figure this one out on my own.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

A white knuckle at himself, huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

Mm-hmm. And that's where he was. And so, you know, as the as time went on, John, and and I started learning more about what was actually happening because you know, I'm gonna be out there researching.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Do your homework and figure out this is not good. We're in trouble here. Then I start thinking about um, well, if he goes to a 30-day pro program, he'll be cured. Because I don't know. I don't know what I know now. And I just think if he can go to a 30-day program and he can get through that, he'll be he'll get he'll never want to feel that lipsick again. So he'll be home and he'll be good and we'll and life will go back to normal. I really believe that.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:17

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

I feel very naive now, but I well they sell that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

They'll sell that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah, and it was expensive. You know, 30-day program is expensive.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

So, did he end up going?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

So he did. He did. He ended up going to um Life Center of Gaylax for 30 days, and I went up there on the weekends and we we did meetings together. And even when he came back home, we went to NA meetings. I went to Narnon, you know, I was in, I was all horseshoe. You know, you know, all in. I dived right in. And and we were we were talking. We he was telling me. And and one when it got towards the end, one night we were in his car. It was October 31st, Halloween, 2015. And he goes, I I I I need to tell you something that's going on that you don't really understand. I'm like, what, Mike? And he said, you know, I really, really have a problem. And I think you need to manage my money. I mean, he he was like really saying, I'm help me.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:18

Help me.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

I can't say I can't. I just can't. And and then he said something that made me, I think No Hope North Carolina be born after his passing, is he said, it's everywhere, mama. So many people you know, so many people, kids that you know, so many people that that have spent the night with me, so many people that are are that that you would never ever imagine are all struggling with this same thing. And I have to admit, as a mom hearing that sitting in his car on October 31st, I thought, well, maybe Mike's just uh exaggerating because it makes it not seem so bad for what he's doing. But he was not, but he was not, and I feel so bad that I didn't understand that because my response would have been different. I was like, Mike, you know, I was just like very um unsure of why he would say something like that. But he was telling me the absolute truth, and I learned this and it didn't take a whole lot longer. So three weeks after doing a 30-day program, he was back out, and I was just like, What? Yeah, how could we spend all this money, do all of this? I went from being sad to mad, all over all those emotions all over the place. I and and he but he admitted it. He admitted it. Yeah, I just can't. And so I said, Well, the only thing I know to do is go back. I mean, I I I don't know what else to do. And and so round two, right? Back to back to we went back to the same place. We went back to rehab and I I I went up there. Um, and it's interesting that I went to uh Virginia because there's nothing wrong with with that particular place. I have still referred people there on the helpline. So it's not about that. It's interesting, it's because I didn't know of any place around here. Now I know I have You got a list.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:17

I got a list of resources.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

I I know, you know, but I didn't. I didn't. And I was looking for something that would accept his insurance. I, you know, I had very specific things, and that's all I knew to do at the time. And Florida was going on then. It was kind of messy. There was some stuff going on in Florida rehabs, and they were talking to him on the phone and wanting lots and lots of money, and then I later learned that they weren't really good. There was a lot going on then because families were being sort of uh taken advantage of because of this problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:50

And because they'll pay anything and do anything, they pay anything. They're a motivated customer.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:55

Yeah, heard somebody on Dr. Phil tell Dr. Phil one time that they spent their entire 401k on rehabs. It made it made it made me just want to be sick.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:03

But you also go like, yep, I can see why they do it. They'll do whatever. I'll do whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

You love your person, you want to do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:10

401k to save your kid. Are you kidding me? Yeah, yeah. So we get to a place where you you're feeling hopeless, he's feeling hopeless. Yeah. How did we get to the place where ultimately he lost his battle?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

Um it it's right after the last trip to Gaylax. Um, went and picked him up. He spent one night with me. He made the decision the last week that he was there, that he was gonna go to Wilmington where because his biological father lives there, and that he was gonna try to rebuild that relationship, which I actually thought was a good idea because I always felt you need the mama and the daddy, right? Yeah, I always felt it, always wanted it, always supported it. So I thought it was a good idea. Wilmington was number 10 and overdoses in the country. Mom didn't know all that. No, I wasn't in the loop, but I was looking at it from a whole different angle. I was looking at dad's there, and there was something called the Hope House there, and that sounded really good to me. And I I wanted him to go to the Hope House. Nothing wrong with the Hope House. Again, there's nothing wrong, but that's where he went. And he got he got to the Hope House. I took him there, we unpacked his stuff, and he had a room by himself. Um, which is by the things I've learned, I always recommend somebody in early cover recovery always have a roommate, never have a door that can be unlocked. That's what I learned from that. And I'm not trying to judge any place. No, it's just that's my story.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

A hundred percent. Yeah, and it's lived experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

It's lived experience, and so he was in Wilmington, he did see his dad, he did see a friend, but he was only there for three weeks, John. He was there for three weeks, and on the third week, he there was a there's a lot of unfortunately, there's a lot of the plug, if you will, for Wilmington that hangs out on Market Street, right? And it's right there, yeah, it's right there. And so there's oftentimes when the the temptation is right at your door, they're all there on purpose, just like in Dreamland when they talked about the Black Tar and Pagers and you know where they were, right? They're there on purpose because they know that. It's a delivery assistance, and the the rehab was right there, and they knew everybody was in in that particular building. There was early recovery. Mike was evil. Mike was seven weeks sober, seven weeks sober at this time. So he ends up buying something in Wilmington, going back into the rehab. He's he's in the rehab, going back into his room Valentine's Day, 2016, locks the door. He makes a text at 1157 on the 13th. That's how we know it was Valentine's Day, right? He's he's texting, you know, the phone tells a lot. Um and he uses and he was using IV and he he was found with the needle still on his arm. It was fentanyl, and his he was not a fentanyl. We never even discussed fentanyl. I know now, you know, my people, my my clients, my patients, they seek fentanyl, I know, but then it was different, right? And we never discussed it. And I only think I knew about fentanyl is that I had a friend with cancer and she had fentanyl patch for her pain from from her from her cancer, but I didn't know about it in the way I know about it today. And so he died in a rehab, and I I have to say this because it's just so important, all the things that unfold and and the and then the impact on families. But I learned that my son died on Facebook. I know that sounds completely that just can't be true, but somebody called me in the middle of the night and said they're blowing up Facebook about Mike. Where's Mike? Where's Mike? And I said, he's good. He's in the Hope House, he's in Wilmington, he's getting treatment, he's good. And it was one of his close friends. And he goes, Look at look at look at what what's on Facebook, look at look at folks at Facebook, and it said, What started out as a beautiful day of love has turned into a terrible tragedy. Michael Hoyle passed away today, and he was in the same rehab.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Oh, for real.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:36

And so I had my husband call Wilmington because I couldn't process. I couldn't, I just thought it was Facebook crap. I I really did. I was just like, no. And but it was true, and they hadn't told me because they wanted uh somebody in um our area in Carrie to come to our home, but nobody ever came. We we we only learn through the fact that we Nobody ever came. Nobody ever came. So things gaps, there's there's a there's a there's a lot of things, yeah, yeah. And we've come a long way. Of course. I feel like we're doing so much better now, but if there was ever anything to put something in me to make me have a mission, oh my gosh. First it was the homicide, and then it was the overdose, and and there was just the the whole how hard it was to find rehab, how fun how how hard it was to find um the the right answers, the right people to talk to, the the right places to go. And then how difficult it is to be so focused on I don't want my son to get a felony, right? That was my focus, that was my thing. I was all about that. And then in hindsight, I should have been worried about what he was doing to not get that felony.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:56

You had no idea, but you are saying because I had no idea, I want to give that information to other people. Because knowledge is power, and it just to look back and say, if I knew then what I know now, but you can do that. And that's what's come out of all of this tragedy is you're kind of saying, because I couldn't know then, I want other people to know. Right. So that's the thing. You're you're like, I'll do all the research, I'll put together the lists. I think you started with the CADC work that you were doing to kind of like, all right, now I think you retired from from from the banking world 33 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:37

Yeah, it it ended up being 33.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:39

And so she's hey, 33 year career. I'm gonna go off into the sunset, go get a nice beach house. No, she's like, no, I want to make a difference, I want to make an impact from all the garbage that I've been through, the pain I've been through. I want my son's deaths to make a difference and have a purpose. And so your journey begins. I think it's it started when you started the the homicide groups, when you started getting involved with those folks, and then all of a sudden it it's a it's becoming a career. You where did you start on that that journey for like where you are today, your substance uh use counselor with a CADC, tons of experience. You've worked with the Drug and Alcohol Council uh North Carolina. Where did that career start? Where where did where was the entry point in in in all of that?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:35

It it may sound a little odd to say it this way, but I really feel like it started with Michael's friends coming to me and saying, Miss Frida, I'm really in trouble. And me starting to recognize that what Michael and I had talked about, he was telling me the absolute truth.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

And when he's saying like it's everywhere, all of a sudden you're like, it is everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

His friends, and even Steve, some of Steven's friends, they knew I would not judge them. I had lost both of my biological children, and they knew that I had been through a lot, and they knew I wouldn't judge them, and they knew that I had been around the block a couple of times at that point, and as far as then the substance use disorder world. And so they said, you know, I'm in trouble. What can I do? So I started, I had the heart for it, but I didn't have the education.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:22

So I started taking folks to Wakebrook and the harbor in Wilmington for detox.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:28

Okay. Um because there's nothing around there. Detox is hard to find.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:31

Yeah, and and a lot of folks didn't have, you know, if they had left school and they didn't have a good career going on, they might not have any insurance, but they needed help. And so I could get that at the harbor. I could get that at Wakebrook, right? Um, at that time. But what I learned and what I got so frustrated about is I would get to the heart or I would get to Wakebrook and all the beds were full. And I I think that this is why I got my C A D C. I really think it all leads into it. All the beds were full. So there were so many gaps. So what do you do with an um just being real here? Uh an IV user, daily user that has a chance of dying every time that you love. Really love. You he used to sit in your house when he was five. You know, what do you do?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:21

This is one of their friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:22

Yeah. Knowing, knowing full well it could happen, but it's happened to you. So, you know, you're not a new level of desperation. Right. New level of desperation. And you get there and you're in, you're sitting in Wakebrook in Raleigh, and they're like, you know, he really needs to come in, um, Miss Frida, but we don't have a bed, you know, you can bring him back in the morning. And you what what are you going to do with that 24 hours? You're gonna be you're not even gonna be able to sleep, right? So then I learned that the harbor would do it with me over the phone, and I could actually leave Wake Brook, even though as long as they had an address, and I don't know, this is kind of going around, but I love it, man. No, if if I could give a Wilmington address. And so I knew about launch pad in Wilmington, that was a recovery place. I I I was learning. And so I could give the launch pad address and I could take them to the harbor and I could get them in there, and then I didn't have to worry about losing them in that 24 hours. And I'm really talking about a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:28

It's unreal. I was shocked that people started talking to me. Like people are coming out of the woodwork, you're starting to do this stuff, you're educating yourself. Um, I want to move all the way to kind of where we're at today and some of the things that have happened in our world in Recovery Live. Um Tisha Temple um said that uh you were um taking on her job. She was working for the Alcohol and Drug Council, and um, she was training you to take her position because she was gonna be working for Recovery Live and she was going to open up a recovery live home. And she was training you. Yeah, one. She only wanted to do one of these things, and she's training you to take that on, and she gets a phone call. Do you were do you remember that? Yes. You remember everything. You got a steel trap. What happened? What was going on?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:16

Well, she was so excited she couldn't probably sit still anymore over the moon, over the moon, and I was so excited for her. And I felt very, very honored because by that point I had gone to Wake Tech to do the CADC thing and I'd done healing transitions, my internship.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:32

They're a great organization, healing transitions.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

Yes, they are. I still go every Monday night. I love us, I love, love, love being there. But here's Tisha getting ready to do her new chapter, which is amazing. I love what you guys have done. I just truly do. I I I have loved Tisha Temple since the day I met her. I mean, how do you how can you not? Yeah, right. And and and Casey, both of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:55

He's all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:57

I I just love them. And I've never asked them to do anything for me when they haven't said yes. Yeah. And I've asked them to do some stuff. Um, so anyway, we're sitting there. She's so excited. I need 6,000 hours. Right. And at retirement age, that's three years of full-time work just to get a C A D C to get a C A D C. I mean, I, you know, my my business degree is not gonna do anything for this world. That's that's days gone by. So she is offering me something where I can do some work from home, right? I can I can be on the phone, um, I can learn a lot about our resources. I can hear folks say, yeah, I've struggled with ADHD. You know, I can relate, right? I have I can relate. And she's given me that opportunity at retirement age.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:45

And so she's going off to do her new home, excited as she can be. And I'm getting the opportunity to go into um ADCNC and work on the recovery helpline. And it was just a beautiful thing. I just felt like just my our relationship and how we met and uh how things were unfolding, it was like perfect.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:06

World's converging. Yeah. It was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:09

It was it was beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:10

It was beautiful. So she's uh since been really involved with with uh getting, I think we're at 12 recovery live homes around around the country. You've been a huge part of just um uh the early planning stages. There's a picture of you in that some of that early planning for those recovery live homes. The very first recovery live home, you put a room in there, uh a no-hope room. Yes. And for some reason, the whole room is decorated out in purple.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:43

Uh at Grown Grace, and we're just so grateful for that. And um all the support that you've given to Recovery Live, the uh event that I get to be a part of that uh is just so moving. You the billboards um are incredible for for No Hope, the the faces of all those who've been lost to to overdose and then to go to the uh overdose awareness event in August uh every year. It's just been so powerful as they read those names one by one, some moms reading those names of their own children and um how many there are, and but that they're showing up and all of these people who've who've lost so much, like yourself who's saying, I I want to give back, how do I help? Um you know, we we do Narcan trainings and e in the church early on when when uh I started into kind of learning about uh just the pandemic of the overdose it was unreal. It was like 110,000 people a year were dying at that time. And I remember the church was for some reason, just because the church can be a little tricky at times, they were like on do we really want to give people Narcan? I mean, if they really like want to die, like and these are drug addicts. And I I was just shocked. It was just shocking to me. And so I remember hearing somebody say, We're gonna keep them alive until they want to live. We're gonna keep them alive. And I've done lots of uh funerals for these kids, and and the kids come to the funerals, yes, and they're friends and they're going like, What do I do? You know, they're looking for that kind of hope. Yes, that you give that to them. It's just incredible. It's just so you just so inspiring what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:35

I appreciate it so much, John. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:38

You're uh you're an inspiration and living on incline is is about just going like what what do I do to to take my tragedy and uh and take it to a place where I can I can give back. Um and you're you exemplify and personify. So we love you. We're so grateful that you came on here. Sorry, I got a little emotional. It's just To see what you've done and you continue to do and we're we're so blessed to have you.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:05

Thank you so much. It's just been such an honor. Thank you for coming to International Libertad's Awareness Day and speaking and all that you do for Recovery Alive and so many people in your homes and your work. It's is tremendous. So appreciated.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:20

We'll keep doing it together. Yes. This is Living On Incline. Hit subscribe. Check out it is no KNOW Hope N C dot com.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:29

Yes, and we should say K N O W.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:32

K N O W. It ain't no Hope. It's play on NC. Yes. And uh support Frieden and all the work that she's doing and Living on Incline Recovery Live. We are so grateful for you. Until we see you guys next time. Um thank you so much for hanging out. Hey, thanks again for joining us on Living on Incline, sponsored by Recovery Live. Would you do us a favor and just hit that subscribe button, share with your friends? And again, we want to explore our full God-given potential and see what we are capable of. So again, hit that subscribe button and thank you so much for joining us on Living on Incline.