#021 Navigating Burnout, Social Media Diagnoses, and the Struggle to Ask for Help

This  episode of Living On Incline featuring Dr. Mercy Conners, Senior Director at the American Association of Christian Counselors. In this raw, behind-the-scenes look at the mental health field, we strip away the clinical perfection to talk about the heavy psychological toll of therapy, the danger of TikTok diagnoses, and the painful reality of carrying client trauma home to your family. 

Watch the full conversation to hear Dr. Conners share her journey from high-stakes adolescent locked units to navigating a deeply personal, real-time family medical crisis that forced her to face her own greatest challenge: learning how to ask for help.

NOTABLE TRAILER QUOTES:

* "I take him into the room, I sit down in front of him and he's on a bean bag and I'm like kneeling in front of him like, 'Tell me what's going on.' And this kid is so mad and he just slaps me across the face." - Dr. Mercy Conners

* "I remember one therapy session where I actually had to cut it off and say, 'We need to stop right now.' I had to get out of the room." - John Eklund

* "I am learning that it's okay to ask for help, first of all. And second of all, that I am asking for help from the people that are trustworthy... I don't have to do everything." - Dr. Mercy Conners

LINKS & RESOURCES:

* Primary Website: [INSERT PRIMARY LINK HERE]

* American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC): Mentioned in transcript

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Mrs. Connors, you are a superstar at the AACC American Association of Christian Counselors. You have a really long title that I'm not even gonna attempt to try and describe.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

My title is Senior Director of Counseling, Continuing Education and Credentialing. And then I'm also the director of the International Board of Christian Care. And I'm also the co-director of the Ethics and Advocacy Division. So I take him into the into the room, I sit down in front of him, and and he's on a beanbag, and I'm like kneeling in front of him, like, tell me what's going on. And this kid is so mad, and he just slaps me across the face.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

I remember one therapy session where I actually had to cut it off and say, I can we need to stop right now. I had to get out of the room. I've had I've had an emotion, they can, and if they see it in me, like I might have a physical, like my face, my neck gets red or something, I'm getting angry, or I'm starting to have a moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Inside, was I upset and like really like I even I told my husband when I came home that day, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I just got slapped in the face by a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Like, I don't know if I can do this. Ethics for me it's just been boring and like you gotta click that button. We have to get six hours of CEUs with ethics, but you make it very interesting. You make it uh something that I'm willing to listen to and talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I worked uh in a locked unit for teenagers. This was if the juvenile detention center had overflow, we took the overflow. So it it was crazy. I saw I saw so many things.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Do you see some danger in the the social media um TikTok therapist, Instagram therapist?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

There's a lot of misinformation out there. Um there's there's a lot of people that over-identify with mental health diagnoses. Now we've swung the pendulum over here, and everybody's talking about it's about everything.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

It's like, I think this, I'm diagnosing this person in my life who's mistreating me. Narcissists are everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Most narcissists don't have a concern that they have it, so that's a part of the diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

The therapist just getting vulnerable. Probably what I struggle with the most is when they say something like, Oh, John, your life is pretty nice. You don't have the problems that I have. And I'm like, you don't know me.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I'm playing out her pattern with my husband. My my husband is is in Philadelphia. He's about ready to have major surgery. He's not gonna be here for three to three and a half weeks. You know, they they see me tearing up from time to time, you know, about you know, daddy being gone. I have allowed my children to see my struggle.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

What do you think you're learning right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I am learning that it's it's okay to ask for help, first of all, and second of all, that I am asking for help from the people that aren't trustworthy. I don't have to do everything. I I try to do everything.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Hey, life is very difficult sometimes. You could be going through relationship problems, you could be having issues at work, you could be struggling with an addiction, depression, anxiety. Um, there are all kinds of reasons why we struggle. And there aren't a lot of resources out there at times when we need immediate help. Yes, there are therapists, yes, there are psychiatrists, but sometimes those waiting lists are are long, and just to reach out to somebody, it can be overwhelming. And so I want to recommend to you Recovery Alive. Recovery Alive is this faith-based program that you can immediately engage with a community of people who are going to love you and walk you through your struggle. One of the first things you want to do if you want to get involved in this program is get a hold of the Recovery Alive handbook. You can work on this handbook one-on-one with one safe and supportive person. Or you could get online, uh, recoveryalive.com and get into some of our communities. We have groups of gender-specific recovery, 12-step processes that you can walk through with safe and supportive people. Connect to those folks or maybe you're somebody who is trying to get out of a difficult situation, whether you've come out of a rehabilitation uh clinic or we have folks who are coming out of jails and prisons. We have recovery alive homes, safe transition homes. We have all kinds of programming to help you. But if you're watching this or listening to Living on Incline, connect with Recovery Alive. Get a hold of this book, get a hold of maybe one safe and supportive person. Check out our online programming and get the help that you need and get it today. You don't have to suffer alone. Well, hey everybody, welcome to Living on Incline. I'm John Eklund and I'm here with Dr. Mercy Connor. We're so glad that you're here, Miss Mrs. Connors. You are a superstar at the AACC American Association of Christian Counselors. You have a really long title that I'm not even gonna attempt to try and describe. So would you introduce yourself to our folks? And by the way, hey, just a reminder, hit that subscribe button, like, follow all the stuff that you do. And uh we appreciate you guys so much. And um anyway, yeah, why don't you introduce yourself, Dr. Mercy?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

All right, I am Dr. Mercy Connors. Uh, I am currently living in the state of Virginia, and I am a licensed professional counselor in Virginia, and I work for the American Association of Christian Counselors, like he said. My title is Senior Director of Counseling, Continuing Education and Credentialing. And then I'm also the director of the International Board of Christian Care. And I'm also the co-director of the Ethics and Advocacy Division. And I'm sure there's a couple other things in there that I couldn't mention, but I'll just leave it at that.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Yeah, you know what's so impressive about you is that my least favorite classes, both with CEUs and with uh college and all that kind of stuff. And I think everybody would would get on board with this if they're in the human behavior world is ethics. Ethics for me it's just been boring and like you gotta click that button. We have to get six hours of CEUs with ethics, but you make it very interesting. You make it uh something that I'm willing to listen to and talk about. What so my question is how why ethics? What what interests you about? It's just like it's like uh it's like accounting. I'm like, who wants to work with numbers? Who wants to work with ethics? Why is that interesting to you?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Uh, you know, one of the things that I think is so important about ethics is that it keeps you safe. And and in the in the therapeutic relationship, there are goods and bads, and then there are do's and do-nots. And that's one of the things that I think is wonderful about ethics is that if you really understand the do's and do-nots, the good can really flourish. And then the bad kind of takes care of itself. And so that's one of the reasons why I really love ethics. The other reason is that we as Christians, we as believers in Christ are supposed to do good always and do no harm. And that's gonna look different in each and every situation. And so I love getting into that nitty-gritty, and and that's one of the reasons why I like doing consulting with clinicians and with coaches, because I want to really understand the situation, and then there are some clear pathways, and then there's some gray, and that's where that's what I'm interested in, is the gray.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

So if you know what the good is, you know what the bad is, but there's a bunch of gray in this. How do you do how how do you manage the grays? Because I think you are sort of a black and white person. I think the grays are a little tough.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah, the gray is.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

What are those grays in therapy?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, the gray is a little bit harder. I will say that the gray, I feel like, is where you allow the Holy Spirit to work in the most. Because I think if you you don't know what's going on in that person's head, you don't really actually know what's happening in their life. You are getting one perspective, which is theirs, but other people may have different perspectives, and the thing that they said that they said may not have been exactly how they said it, you know. So that's where I really love getting into okay, you could do, you could take it in this direction, you could take it in this direction, and you kind of allow the Holy Spirit to to really move in a way that is very vital in that clinic client's life. Um, but it's also moving in the clinician's life because as you know in client care, how many things of our own stuff come into the forefrey? And then you're like, okay, is that me? Is that them? And then and then that really helps too because now you as a clinician have the ability to grow if you allow it to grow you.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yep. And it's challenging. You and I do some training on motivational interviewing and relationship is a huge part of therapy, is getting into a relationship with your client. Therapy, I think, is all about how to draw a person into a relationship of trust and you said safety. So I have to care about I can't just pretend to care about that person or do a good job in therapy of saying, I really manipulated them to a place where they they now trust me. I pulled them into my trust, and now I can manipulate their emotions and get at what their struggle is. You actually have I think that's almost evil. I think you have to get into like a familiarity of almost friendship. And this is where I think we don't talk enough about I think uh Yalam did such a great job in his book, Gift of Therapy. About you start reading some of the stuff, you're like, boy, he's doing a lot of self-disclosure. He's doing a lot of connection, it just feels risky, but that's how I operate. Um so you, this is what I wanted to push you on. You've been you have done therapy, you're not quite engaged in that, you're doing a lot of trainings and teachings and all that stuff, but in that relationship with your client, taking the taking those risks, did you especially with teenagers and kids, just personally, you and me talking, is is there times where you were like, oh, I maybe I got a little too involved here, got a little too close to this client. Do you have some examples of that?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think, you know, especially with working for with kids and with teenagers, you you really invest. And you also see um, because I did intensive in-homes, so I was actually in the home with the with the child. So I really saw the family dynamics. And that was even more so like getting involved in the family. In the house. In the house, in the house, yeah. And I think easier, you know, depending on the situation, I could be there anywhere from an hour to three hours at a time. And so, yes, and it it was intense.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

What was that? So who who was that with? Who did you do that with?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Uh so I worked with a uh it's called National Counseling Group, and they were here in in the Virginia area, and I did that for goodness, uh three years. Three years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

And then and then I also worked in a school. And so, of course, I worked with, you know, then then that was completely different. So so my days looked like this, where I started in the school and I would work with um four-year-olds because I worked with pre-K. And then I would go and work with teenage teenagers in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

That sounds a little bit like my personal nightmare, honestly. I hate to say it. I like my kids, but but you know what?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

It was wonderful because, and I was even talking about this with some of my other um uh employees here at AACC, is that what my four-year-old was dealing with was often the same thing that my teenager was dealing with, but it was just on different levels. But it was the same thing, the same thing that they wanted. They wanted safety, they wanted trust, they wanted good relationships with their parents and their peers and and and with their teachers. But then they also struggled within themselves to produce behaviors that their authorities were looking for, even though they those behaviors would look different for a four-year-old as compared to a a teenager. It was still the same struggle. And you were doing the same things. And that was what I actually loved about it because I would actually use some of the stuff I was doing with my four-year-olds, with my teenagers, and it would kind of work better than with the four-year-olds.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

So trans we talk about transference and counter-transference.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Describe that a little bit to somebody who's watching, they're like, I don't know what the heck that means, or maybe just have a have a really basic working knowledge. What what is transference and counter-transference and and why do we need to pay attention to that as therapists?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Sure, sure. So transference is really the client's feelings towards the the clinician. And the transference is often something that the that the client is feeling or um struggling with that they're trying to then play out with the therapist. And the reason and really you can't have transference and countertransference unless you have a very secure, safe relationship. Because the the client won't feel safe to bring that stuff out, right? Um, unless they really do feel that safety. So oftentimes that transference is happening because that that client's trying to figure out how to do it. The other thing is that's a that's a um a behavior like uh pattern that I that they do often. And so really it's really important that the the clinician sees that and is like, oh, now I understand why in my context, why your parent gets upset when you say stuff like this because it's it comes out very hard, or or it comes out very direct, or or even you're not actually saying the thing that you want to say. You're saying it like like over here, but you're meaning this. Um, so that's really helpful. Um, but then there is counter transference, and that's when the clinician has their own feelings towards the client. And sometimes that's helpful. Again, like what I just said, there is oh, I get how your parent would be responding to you like this at this point in time, because yeah, that's that's kind of knocking on me and and I didn't do anything, you know. Um, but then it could also be that the the clinician has their own unresolved stuff and that the client may be doing something similar to um say the clinician's own parent or own spouse or own child or what have you, and then the clinician has to say, is that me or is that you?

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And if it's me, yeah, I don't bring it I think about uh for me an example of that is uh um I've had clients who get really frustrated with my lack of shock or response that is appropriate to what they're bringing, what they would think is appropriate to what I'm bringing what they're bringing to me as far as like the the horrors of their life. And they'll they'll I can feel it like they they're bringing something every week that's just for them is their world is falling apart and I'm I'm having empathy, but I I think what happens is they want more of uh investment from me in that relationship. I don't know if you know what I'm saying. They they I almost like I need to come across there and give them a hug or or or give them money or I don't know, something to just like John, you're not doing enough. And so they're they're they're feeling that. And so this is something that I was thinking about and having this conversation with you where I'm thinking, like, as a therapist just getting vulnerable, probably what I struggle with the most when it comes to that counter transference is when they say something like, Oh, John, your life is pretty nice. It must be nice to be in your position. You're a successful therapist, and you know, you got this great family, and I'm like, you don't know me. And they're saying, and you, you know, you don't have basically they say you don't have the problems that I have. And it is very difficult for me at that moment not to be like, listen, let me tell you about my life, you know, that all of a sudden they're pulling me into this thing where I want to defend myself. I want to say, my life is hard too. You don't know me and you don't know what I'm going through sitting here with you. Um, so I wonder if uh that's anything that you've experienced where have you ever had a clank get to you where they I don't know if you have an example, I'm putting you on the spot, like an example right off the bat where somebody got you and you're you're feeling it. Like I've had I've had an emotion, they can, and if they see it in me, like I might have a physical, like my face or my neck gets red or something. I'm getting angry or I'm starting to have a moment. There was I remember one therapy session where I actually had to cut it off and say, I I I we need to stop right now. I had to get out of the room. Um, I don't know if you've ever had anything like that before, but we're humans, right? So I I just wondered have you ever had that situation as a therapist where you can get honest and go like somebody got to me. Somebody got me.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Oh, yeah. I mean, again, I work with teenagers, so like it was like Yeah, they get you it was like a thing. Like they shied, you know, and even even my four-year-olds would do the same thing, you know. They it it was um for me, okay, and this is disclosure, it was bucking my authority. Like, you're not my teacher, you don't, you know, you don't I don't have to do what you say, things like that. And and and that really, yeah, that that was a struggle for me because I was the adult and I'm like, excuse me, you're four. Like, yes, you do what I do, I have to do what I do, what I say. But the then I understood what the problem was is that they were having a trouble with the authority. And so this is where I would switch it. And and when I wouldn't recognize it, I would switch it and say, This isn't what I'm saying, this is what your teacher is saying, and that's why we're gonna do what your teacher says, because they they're your authority. Um, and that kind of helped me again. Like I said, I work with kids, so I always had to to frame it back to this is what your parent is saying, or this is what your teacher is saying, or this is what your coach is saying. Um because I had to remind them that maybe I'm not the authority, and that's okay. I don't need to be the authority in your life. I am helping you and your authority come back together and to to to make a plan. Um so that there were times when that would happen. Um, but there were times you were talking about how you like you can't like react. I have a perfect example of that. So my first day in the the pre-K that I worked at. So I worked with four-year-olds, okay, three or four-year-olds. Um, first day, I mean, I am dropped into the middle of it. It's in the middle of the of the school year. Um, so I'm given clients that I don't even know yet. My like I am just saying they just met Miss Mercy that day, okay? And one of the kids is is struggling. So we had to take him out of the classroom to try to, we had a calm down room, so we took him to the calm down room, and I'm just trying to figure out like what's happening because the other two clinicians are already being utilized in other other um classrooms. So I have to take this kid out. So I take him into the into the room, I sit down in front of him, and and he's on a beanbag, and I'm like kneeling in front of him, like, tell me what's going on. And this kid is so mad, and he just slaps me across the face. Oh and and what I did there, and I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? What do I do? I didn't react. I said, Okay, it looks like you're mad. And I didn't I didn't give him any anger.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

It looks like you're mad, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

It looks like you're mad, and that was what I said.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

It just feels like you might be a little upset with me right now. I am not sure, but I think he might be angry right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yes. So and it was funny, like as like I didn't react to this kid at all, even though I wanted to, obviously, but I didn't. And and in that situation, he calmed down because I didn't respond. I didn't I didn't take his bait. You know what I mean? He wanted me to get angry and to probably yell at him or do something like that. Cause that's probably what other people would have done, right? Um, but I didn't. And you know that kid never did it to me again. And he also, even though he would get angry with me before, like, you know, in the subsequent months, he knew that I wasn't going to react. And so he never tried that again. Now, I also gave him a little bit more space after that. I wasn't as close.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

You know, did you wear a helmet? Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

No, you know, it was, it was, I'm telling you, once that was probably the most interesting place I ever worked, but but it was it was great in that in that situation. I recognized what it was. And he wanted me to play out his pattern. And I wouldn't play out his pattern. Now, inside was I upset and like really like I even I told my husband when I came home that day, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I just got slapped in the face by a four-year-old. Like, I don't know if I can do this. And but I went back and I and I, you know, I gained that relationship with that kid. Um, did he still struggle? Yes, he did. He had a really hard home life. You know, I didn't even know this kid at all. So I found out more about his home life and what he was going through at home and what his brother went through and and all of these different things. And then I'm like, I get that. I understand why he responded the way he did. But it was it was a definitive learning experience for me.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

You go home and tell your husband that this kid slapped you across the face, and um yeah, that's part of this deal, is we're having conversations with our loved ones about obviously we have to have HIPAA and all that. We can't get specific, but we're we're carrying some of those things home with us. And how has your husband been impacted by your profession and good and bad? Like what what just as a human with kids, um with a husband who loves you and is watching you sometimes come home and be like, Man, I had a great day and had some breakthroughs. And then those days were like I just got the crap beat out of me physically, emotionally. Like I I I am it, you know, it's all it's gotta be all over you. And I I appreciate that about you, Dr. Mercy. You you definitely are vulnerable and and um and can talk about the stuff that's going on with your very professional, but also uh it's just uh you balance that very well. So I imagine you carry some of this stuff home. How's your husband been impacted by the work you do?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yeah, you know, actually it's it's been really wonderful having my husband be there because you know, he's not affected by the emotions of these kids or their stories or anything like that. All all he all he does is hear me. And, you know, more of what I'm talking about is how it's impacting me, not what's really happening with the children. Um, there was one point in time um we were early married, um, maybe four months into marriage at this point. And I came home and I was not raging, but close to that. Like, you know, I was really upset and I was really frustrated. Um, and we actually got into an argument, me and my husband did. I can't even tell you what it was about. Um, but throughout that argument, um, I assumed like three or four times that he had said something that he didn't actually say. Um, and it was it was really bad. It kind of like escalated the argument really, really bad. And then he turns to me and he goes, Is this what your teenager is doing? And I was like, Oh my gosh, it is. I'm playing out her pattern with my husband.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

But it had to be his understanding of this is not like mercy. He had to know me well enough to know this is not like you. You don't normally do this. And then for him to give me that, and I had to it it it stopped me in my tracks, and I was like, okay, let me think through this. And it it stopped the you know, my my you know, prefrontal cortex came back online and I was like, wait, hold on a second, I gotta think through this, which was great. Right. Because in that argument, I couldn't bring it back, you know, because I was so upset. And and then it was like, that is what I'm doing. I am playing out her pain. And so, you know, going back to work with her after that really was helpful because then I started to notice it so much more that she would do a lot of assuming and she would be kind of uh egging on the arguments that she would have with her parents be by saying things that they didn't say. So one of the things that we did after that is I would actually, when they would be in an argument, I'd sit them both in a chair and I would let her speak, and then I would let the parents speak. And I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You said this, they didn't say that. And and and I can tell you that that was probably the biggest breakthrough that we had with that family, is that because it happened at home, it happened at home, you could see it in yourself in order to see it in them. Yes, yes, so good.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Hmm. And that's the importance of having that self-awareness and having good people in your life to to call you out. That is huge. What a great example. And uh thinking about um the work of counseling and what we're trying to do for people in therapy and your work with the American Association of Christian Counselors, you guys put out so much information, great training. Uh Phil Smith, uh, head of the mental health coaching division, just Kyle Sutton, they're putting out these certifications, not just the mental health coaching, but trauma-informed, doing uh motivational interviewing. Uh now they have the veterans um certification and our recovery live certification, all that kind of stuff. Um consumers of mental health, coaching, counseling. There's a lot of stuff out there for folks that is fantastic, what you guys are doing. But then there's like the TikTok therapist. I'm not saying they're all bad or problematic. There's some good stuff, but more and more, this is what happens in therapy. John, before we start, can I just show you this TikTok video that I got on narcissism? Uh, I think that my husband is a narcissist. Let me just show you this video. And I'm like, I wanna I wanna be supportive. I I want them to bring solutions to the table. I want them to be looking for ways to improve themselves and put tools into their toolbox. But some Instagram reel of some guy out there who is uh has no training or certifications, he's just an influencer. And he might be saying some good stuff that he looked up on AI.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Uh I'm being a little bit um, it does happen.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

I do feel that I I think and it's narcissism specifically for me, which I think uh you and and Sinead do a great job of talking about some of those things, but like I think narcissism is the new ADHD, the new I think I'm OCD because I like to have things lined up. I like my pencils lined up on my desk. Well, you may not have an OCD diagnosis. That just you might like to have your pencils lined up on your desk. Um I'm I'm saying a lot of things right now, but what's the danger? Do you see some danger in the the social media um TikTok therapist, the Instagram therapist? Do you see any danger in that? Recovering marriage is a game changer if you want to either save your marriage or simply strengthen it. If you want to take your marriage from good to great, or if your marriage is in real trouble, either way, recovering marriage can be extremely beneficial. One of the ways that you can use this resource, Recovering Marriage, is you can get involved in our online recovering marriage groups. You can plug into those groups at recoveryalive.com. Also, if your church wants to get a group started, you can get a hold of this book and our leadership material of how to run a recovering marriage group in your church. These groups take about 14 to 16 weeks. They're based on the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. And I'm telling you, so far, everything we've heard about these things is we are seeing marriages saved. We're seeing divorce papers being torn up, we're seeing recommitments, vow renewals. It's been absolutely epic what we've seen happen as people work through the 12 commitments of recovering marriage. We also are having weekend intensives. If your church is interested in having a full day intensive of recovering marriage, for us to come in and lead an entire day of working through the 12 commitments, we'd love to come to your church and your community and run one of those intensives. You can get all of this information at recoveryalive.com. You can go on uh Amazon and get this book as well if you just want to research it a little bit. The 12 commitments of recovering marriage are changing lives. Check it out today.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

I think one of the things that we have to understand is that um for a long time there was this huge stigma around mental health. And so people weren't allowed to talk about it. So, so really the only people that really understood mental health were people like you and me who would go to school for for flipping forever, it felt like to get degrees and then to get licensed and then to to work with people. But really, you know, it's been a great thing to have this mental health awareness to to reduce that stigma to allow the mental health to be um a part of the conversation. So if you think of like the major stigma as like a pendulum, and it was way up here and nobody was talking about it, and now we've swung the pendulum over here, and everybody's talking about it, it's about everything. Um, there's a lot of misinformation out there. Um, there's there's a lot of people that over-identify with mental health diagnoses or or different things that they're doing. So you got that happening over here. What we need really is more of this balanced look at it. This, this, yes, we need to hear people's experiences and what they're going through, those clients that are really actually working with clinicians and what that means. Um, you don't want the stigma, you want there to be information out there, you don't want just the professionals to know some of this stuff, but we need to bring that that that pendulum back to the middle and have a balanced view. Here's the thing: I love that mental health is being talked about. You also have to understand that people are people and that they have their own experiences, and that's not everybody's experience. So even though you may have somebody who says, Hey, I think I may be OCD because I want my pencils all in in a row, then you're like, Okay, let's go and do an assessment, see if that's that's really what's happening. That's the wonderful thing about it. It's kind of like medicine, right? You know, you had those people that didn't really know a lot about medical, and then you had the WebMB, like, you know, the and now they're like, Oh my gosh, and I'm dying.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

You're dying that's my elbow hurts and I have brain cancer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Exactly. Exactly. But we have to remember too that that knowledge is power. That's true, but it's good knowledge. It's it's a it's a balanced knowledge of that. You know, when your clients bring you TikTok videos, I think that's wonderful. Is the TikTok video about them or is it about somebody else? And that's always what I think.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Always about somebody else. It's always about somebody else. Yeah, that's a good point. That's what it is. It's like, I think this, I'm diagnosing this person in my life who's mistreating me. And I think that's the specifically, I'm really frustrated and struggling with narcissism. And I I love your take on this because again, you I think you and Sinead do a bunch of stuff on on that. And I just I feel like so many people excuse their own lack of, man, I want to work on this relationship. Or it's almost like permission to disconnect completely from somebody because they are a narcissist or or or be able to say, I don't have a responsibility or ownership in this relationship because I'm dealing with somebody who's a narcissist, where narcissistic personality disorder is a pretty small percentage, but like if you know, if I could clock somehow or put put together some kind of percentage of the people that I'm I'm working with who have a narcissist in life, then it's like it's a it's becoming a pandemic. Uh narcissists are everywhere. And uh so as you're doing this, some of these trainings on on narcissism and and the the the abuse, narcissistic abuse that we see. Balance this out for us, Dr. Mercy. Help, help me, because I am I'm getting a little frustrated with uh the the that just seems very like a hot trend, and I think I know I think I feel like I know why, and it's that it's just very easy to peg somebody that you're dealing with with that disorder, so that you can just take off your responsibility. Um I off on that?

SPEAKER_00 36:25

No, I think you're right. I think a lot of a lot of clients come in and they're like, well, this person is if if I didn't have this person acting the way that they do, then then my life would be perfect. And I think we have to go to that of, okay, so you're saying if this person was not acting this way, then everything in your life would be fine. So that means that your health would be great, that means your sleep would be great, that means that your relationships with other people that don't have anything to do with this person would be great. You know, so so then you you're trying to help them see that this person you're making as central is not actually central to to your your health and and your well-being, you know. Now, I will say this has the the population as a whole, our our culture, has it allowed for narcissism to grow or symptoms of narcissism? I want to speak like that. Symptoms of narcissism to grow. Yes, I will say that is very, very true. The the antidote to that is is having good skills and boundaries when working with these individuals. There is nothing that you can do to make that narcissist narcissistic person or those that are just um showing narcissistic symptoms to change. That has to be all on them. They have to make that decision in their own life. What can you do in your life? What are you able to control? And we talk about this in clinical, it's like your locus of control. What can you control? What can't you control? And I think when we focus on that, and also when you start implementing good skills, like I'm thinking specifically, like good boundaries, good good ways of saying no in a very nice way, but still saying no and then keeping with that boundary, not moving it after you say no, you know, I think that that is where you're going to see a little bit of change on that individual's in in that individual way that they're gonna respond to you. It also just helps you to say, I said no, and I stuck with that no. Was that uncomfortable for me to stick with that no? Yes. But did I do it? Yes. And then that person changed the way that they responded to me the next time they asked me to do something or the next time we had a difficult interaction.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Uh I think that that's you and I have had Yeah, you and I have have talked about codependency boundaries, how important that is. And it's if you're dealing with somebody who has that tendency to be selfish, uh, really focus on their own needs and their own narrative, and or have a behavior that's extremely dysfunctional or dangerous. How do you put those boundaries in place? What I going back to narcissism, what I struggle with, and I think you hit on, is that a lot of narcissistic um behavior that is identified as usually this person is. It's I it's very rare that somebody says, I think I'm narcissistic. I'm gonna self-I watch this TikTok video and I realize I'm a narcissist. I have never seen it in my life. I've never seen somebody have this self-awareness. I think that's me. They always go, my husband, my wife, my girlfriend, what my parents. I never knew it's them. And I believe that that's part of the issue for me, is it just feels like it is others directed 99.9% of the time. Because, you know, addiction. So let's take addiction for example. I think if you're struggling with addiction, a substance use disorder, you probably are going to display like the DSM is going to have a checklist that looks a lot like narcissism.

unknown 40:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Consume with your own needs. Um complete denial looks like this person who's completely hedonistic, uh, delusions of grandeur of things they're gonna do, and and self-importance. Um, and so I think it's an interesting concept. I like your thought of the culture we live in. Maybe it's just getting more and more narcissistic in general. Just people are getting more selfish and more self-centered, but self-identifying as I'm the person who is selfish. I'm the person who is just focused on me, me, me. I just are you seeing any of that? Are you seeing people go, like, yeah, I guess that must be me. Like when you're doing your trainings, is it has anybody come up and self-identified and say, after you did your training, it's it's me. I'm the one.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

No, I I have never had that happen, but I do think that we can see there are times when each one of us struggle with those symptoms. I think that's why I want to say it's symptoms. It's not it's not right like full-on narcissistic personality disorder, which is actually interesting. It to have narcissistic personality disorder, you have to have a concern that you have it. And most narcissists don't have a concern that they have it. So that's a part of the diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

You're probably why it's a low percentage, uh, because nobody will admit it when they have it. Yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

But I think I think the thing is too, is that we we have become a culture that doesn't do a lot of self-reflection on okay, what could I have done differently in this situation that could have made this go better? Um, I think if we had a lot more of that, then then I think you would see the the narcissism go down, the the symptoms go down. And I think this is gonna be individual, right? Okay, I I was in this interaction with this individual, and I said this, and it probably came across as harsh. But I have to have that own introspection. I think that's what we're missing a lot in in our culture is introspection of okay, here's what I did. Could what I have done? Um, my husband says this a lot. Are are you exploding the the argument or are you trying to damp it down? Are you trying to do everything you can to make it better? If you're not trying to make it better, you're making it worse. So I think that's where you have to have your own introspection. Now, is that hard to do when you're in the interaction? Yes. So that's why you need to take time after the interaction, say, okay, what could I have done differently? Or let me pause. I can see that I'm getting really, really upset, or I can see that I'm not interacting properly with you. Can you give me five minutes to calm down, put my thinking cap back on, put that prefrontal cortex back online so that then I can react to you positively. And then I think this is also where I love modeling. Modeling is one of the best teachers, is that when you see me do it, you are more likely to do it as well. So I think some people have to take their own um, take themselves and say, okay, I'm gonna put myself through this and say, okay, I'm gonna think through the way that I'm doing this. I'm gonna come back to that person and say, Hey, I could have said this differently. Even if you think that that person is is is is the problem, you still come back and say, Hey, I think I should have said this differently. It changes it changes the dynamic in the relationship. I've done that not only with with my husband, but I've done it with my children. I've done it with my parents. I've done it with my own friends and even my colleagues here of, hey, I could have said that differently. And I I should have, I should have probably said that differently. And it changes the relationship because now there's this mutual understanding. I have seen them come back to me and say, hey, I could have said this different. And I love that because that that encouraged the introspection. It encourages my growth, not your growth. I'm not talking about you. This is my growth.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

So you you've admitted that you're wrong sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Oh, yes. It's very important in life to admit that you're wrong. You know, it's funny. I say this a lot, like when people talk to me about my PhD, they said, What did what did you learn from your PhD? And it's and I learned that I don't know very much. And now that I've like flipped that into my own personal life of I don't know very much. I still have to be learning. I still have to be doing this. I'm a I'm a therapist. I've been a therapist for goodness, 10, 12 years now. I've I've been doing this a long time. I'm not perfect. And that's okay. That's okay for me not to be perfect. I'm still learning and I want to learn. I want to be better. I want to be better not only with with my relationships with clients, but I want to be better with my relationships with my kids, my husband, my parents, my colleagues. And if I'm not taking my own advice of working on that, then how am I supposed to expect other people to do that?

SPEAKER_03 45:27

Yeah, I was I was in a session the other day and uh I had that conversation with a client. Um again, trying to follow some of that yalum vulnerability and and saying, like, I am modeling a relationship that is safe and healthy. What I'm trying to do in this is model the fact that um safe and healthy relationships are possible. This person was saying, like, I have no one in my life that is safe. I have no one in my life that really cares about me. And I said, Can I can I interrupt you? I care about you. Oh, I just pay you. I I understand that. But I do care about you and I am safe. Do you think I'm safe? Yes, I think you're safe. And so part of what we do in therapy is model the relationship that is possible that they can have with people, that they are likable, that they are worth um loving. I I I think it's really it would be hard for me. I I can't remember one of the ACC folks, uh the Christian um counseling magazine had asked me to to write an article on being a Christian therapist, and I said, I'm I'm gonna probably do a different angle of that and and talk about the fact that I'm a therapist who's a Christian. Because it's my worldview, I I can't help but have the Holy Spirit love people in my sessions through me. Like that's what I'm going to do. And so it's not like a technique or a theory, it's me and my worldview. Um C.S. Lewis probably my favorite quote from him is I he says, I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not because I see the sun, but by the sun, I see everything else. That quote tells me that um Christianity isn't just like a tree in my landscape. It's not part of the landscape, it's how I see my landscape. And so as a as a therapist, of course, I'm entering into a relationship. So as soon as I walk in, I'm bringing the Holy Spirit with me. I'm bringing my worldview. And um and so just going like, hey, this is possible for you to be in safe relationships with people who have a care for you and a love for you. And so I I love the modeling concept, is that I am a representation of what's possible. I and and to your point, my uh ability to admit what I'm wrong in therapy, which I've done. That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Yes, that is very hard.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

I've come back another I I've come back in a in the next session and said, you know, I I think I was I wasn't listening very well there, or I think last week um when I said this, I I I think I was off. I think I miss misread that, or man, that is but when just to your point, when I do it, it can be extremely powerful instead of just doubling down, I'm the expert in the room, is to say the expert in the room is the client who's sitting there. They're an expert on them. They know more, they have all the information. And um, so I love the modeling approach. And so I want to go into um having that self-awareness. Um, I'd love to hear a little bit about how did you get into all this, Dr. Mercy? What what what made you go? Like, I want to do this thing called counseling and therapy. What what what brought you into this? How'd you grow up um just as much as you want to share, as much as you want to be vulnerable? How did how did this what kind of what kind of uh family did you have? What how'd you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Sure, sure. So I had um a mom and a dad, and they were wonderful parents, both both believers, um, went to church every every day that the the the doors were open. Um I joke with people that I was pulled you with them. Oh yeah, oh yeah, brought brought me with them. Um so my dad um is a family physician, so he's a doctor, and but his spiritual gift is evangelism. And so that's what he saw as his avenue or his way to evangelize was through medicine. And so he did that daily, you know, in his office. Um, you know, obviously by asking people, do you want to hear about this? And he would he would take them through the gospel. Um, and then my mom was a stay-at-home mom for for most of my life, and then she um also was a teacher. Um, so she taught both me and my brother fifth grade um at our Christian school. And then after we finished fifth grade, she moved into being um our school's guidance counselor. And so uh, you know, I came to know the Lord when I was seven years old. Um, my dad was very consistent about reading the Bible and Christian books to us um before we would go to bed. And I remember at seven, um, my dad was reading in the book of Revelation, it's actually uh chapter 11. I even know what chapter it was. Um, and and he it was talking about hell. And and I'm like, dad, I I don't want to go there. I I know that I will, I don't want to go there. So my dad um gave me the gospel and I I accepted Jesus as my savior and in my brother's because maybe my brother was an old I had an older brother, and we would all be in the same bed when he would do the reading and to move to my room. And so I was in my brother's bed. I remember that um like it was yesterday. And uh it was wonderful to come to know the Lord through my dad. And then um, you know, I had a wonderful upbringing. I was in a Christian school, um, but I always felt that God had a a call in my life. I didn't know what that was, but eventually I um really believed it was counseling. And the reason that it was is because my mom, my mom who was a counselor, I was a freshman in in high school. So she was in the in the high school a lot, and she's like, Mercy, do you notice that older kids come to you for advice? And I'm like, No, I never noticed that. But then once she said it, like I started to notice that some of these older kids would come to me and say, Hey, what do you think about this? Or even younger kids would say, What do you think about this? And so it kind of like sparked something in me that you know, maybe counseling would be a good path for me.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Um, so I ended up uh graduating in your it reminds it reminds me of of the Charlie Brown thing where I think one of the characters has like for five cents you can come and get advice. Was it from Lucy or something? I can see you. I can see you in as a kid just going like how does that make you feel? Yeah. Something like that. I was like, wow, you got a gift.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah, that was so funny because actually uh Charlie Brown's one of my favorite things. So I have a mug that's Lucy, like you were just saying.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

That is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yes. Um so uh, you know, I I started um really thinking about this and and I felt like God really put it on my heart um to to go into counseling. And so I graduated a year early from high school and I went into um college and I went to a wonderful college. I recommend it to anybody. It's Tacoa Falls College, it's a small college in Northeast Georgia, and it was uh wonderful because it was also a mission school. So this would this is where a lot of missionaries would learn to become mission missionaries. They would learn anthropology and different languages and things like that. Um, but it was also a lot of missionary kids would come to this school because their their parents were from that school. Uh so I really met uh some amazing kids that were missionary kids that lived overseas for their whole entire life while their parents were were missionaries. And my parents always wanted to be missionaries. Um, we were actually supposed to go and serve in India when I was two years old. And then political unrest made it um impossible for us to go. So um, but missions has always been a part of our life. We would go on a missions trip every year. Um, my dad would use medicine, obviously, because that's his avenue to bring the gospel. And so uh this school just made sense for me because you know, I was already invested in missions, and then um meeting all of these missionary kids, I was like, this is what God has called me to. I I am called to be a counselor for for missionary kids, which is really funny that when whenever somebody would be like, Oh, so you're a missionary kid, I'm like, no, no, I'm not. I just I just know what they what they need. Um, and it was it was a wonderful experience. I loved it. Um, but it really showed me what I wanted to do in life and was to work with missionary kids. Uh so I went through, um, graduated from Tacoa Falls, and then I started my degree, my master's degree at Columbia International University, which again is another mission school. Um, it didn't work out for me to stay there, but I ended up moving to uh Liberty. And so I got my uh master's degree at Liberty. And it was funny because I had never wanted a PhD. That was like the farthest thing from my mind. I'm like, I do not want this. Um, but I got uh the opportunity to have a PhD, and um I was talking with my brother, and he's like, he's like, Mercy, just apply. Because I was like, I do not want to do this. He's like, if you if you apply and they don't accept you, then you don't have to do it. And I'm like, okay, that seems reasonable because I knew my grades, my grades weren't that great that year. And I was like, okay, they're not gonna take me because I know I'm not I I don't have the grades. Um and lo and behold, they took me, and I was like, I have a hard time.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

What when you say you didn't have the grades, you had like one B? I don't believe that for one second.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

So it was the first time I had ever taken an online course, so I really hadn't figured it out and I didn't do well. And the funniest thing was, John, is it was the ethics course. I literally didn't do well in my ethics course.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

That's amazing. Isn't that clear? There it is. Maybe you're like, well, you probably like this is terrible. I'm gonna, I'm someday I'm going to fix the ethics courses. Yeah. It might be because you got a bad grade that you are an ethics guru.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

I it it was that, but it was also um, I didn't want to be licensed. So so all throughout this, like I knew what was coming down the pipe for for licensed clinicians. I was adamant. I am never gonna be licensed by a state because I didn't want them to dictate what I could and could not say to my client. Okay. And so I was like, I so I didn't like the ethics codes either, which that was another probably disconnect for me in those classes.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah. It was it was a very it's a very that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Uh-huh. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

I want to psychoanalyze that.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Yeah, well, you should because it's really an interesting story. Um, and so then anyway, so I um went through my PhD program and what I really wanted to do was work with missionary kids. Like I wanted to do that as my as my practicum or my internship, and there wasn't really an opportunity for me to do it in my practicum. So I worked uh in a locked unit for teenagers um for my practicum.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

That was wild.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

It was, I mean, when we're talking like locked unit, this was if the juvenile detention center had overflow, we took the overflow. So it was crazy. I saw I saw so many things.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

There was one time that was my first real job. Yeah, at Lakeland Hospital in uh Springfield, Missouri. It was my first real job. I worked at a lockdown facility for adolescents, and it was a zoo. It was a zoo. It was what you're about to tell me. I I I probably have some some similar experiences. It it's traumatizing. And you, how old are you at this point when you're at this thing?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

I was 22.

SPEAKER_03 57:34

Oh man. Yeah, 22-year-old young lady in a facility like that. So Yeah. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah, it was crazy. So um I go, I'm supposed to go and do a group. Like that was one of my things. I did a group every week. So I was coming in to do my group. Between me going from my office, which was across campus, to the actual locked unit, um, I had to walk or I had to drive. And so between me leaving my office and getting to the locked unit, they had had done a lockdown because there was a kid in the in the uh milieu, so in the in the main section that had taken all the chairs and all the furniture and had built a fort. I don't know how he did that in that short amount of time, but it was a short amount of time. And so I, you know, I do my normal thing to get in. They literally pulled me in because I had I had already walked in the door not knowing, pulled me into like the area that was locked for like all the safety for for the the clinicians. And I'm like, what is going on? Because they were afraid that he would come and and attack anybody because he had already he had already attacked some of the some of the orderlies because they were trying to take down his his his little impact, his little fort that he had created.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

So that was that was something I mean we we dealt with.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

Day one.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

That was that was like halfway through, but it was so funny because I literally this had happened like in less than 10, 15 minutes from me walking over. So I was like, okay, so no group today, but they couldn't let me go. They couldn't let me leave because we had to go outside the door. So I was like, okay, so I'm just sitting there for like 20 to 30 minutes. Finally, he kind of like moved to another area in the milieu, and they're like, Okay, we're gonna get sneaky back out. So it was it was crazy. There were so many things that I saw there that really just showed me um it was my first time to ever see a PTSD case. Um, yeah, and it was like uh I I saw it. It wasn't like I did any questions, I literally saw it happening in front of me. And I'm like, this is real PTSD. I see this now. Uh so you know, very interesting situation. So then after that, I was like, well, I really want to work with missionary kids. Um and I have the opportunity to After that, you're like, please let me work with me work with mission kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

Anybody but this. This is nuts. Yeah, that is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Um, so then I I went over to the Philippines and I worked at Faith Academy in the Philippines with missionary kids for an entire year.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

It was beautiful. It was um it was wonderful. It it was really the place where I felt like I got to be what I always wanted to be for God. Um, because I got to do I got to be a counselor, which obviously was was something really important. I was a missionary, and then I also taught, so I taught um AP psychology while I was there, and then I also uh coached volleyball and basketball while I was there. Um so I I just loved it. It that time was wonderful for me. I really felt like God grew me a lot in that. Um, and this is where, you know, I really I had to test out some of my ideas that I wanted to do for my dissertation to to finish my degree. And so um about uh little less than a year later, I came back and did my dissertation um uh like getting the data from them. So they let let me do um uh an assessment on their kids, which was really amazing. So I was looking at um attachment, so that's the relationship with the parents and the the child, um their attachment to God, and then their life satisfaction and psychological well-being for these missionary kids. And it was the first like really big um data set that we had gotten from missionary kids about attachment and and God attachment. And it was really interesting what we found out. You know, that the kids really do feel like they have this really great uh connection to their parents. Um, it was interesting though to see that they didn't have as much of a connection with God, even though, you know, their parents are missionaries, they're there because of God, they're there because of the the work of the gospel. Um, and you know, it really kind of threw me into a journey of, okay, why is that? Why is there that disconnect? And what we really determined is that it really is again going back to modeling, that the parents may have struggled with their relationship with God because, you know, maybe the finances weren't coming in, or there was political unrest, or or we don't see God really moving, or, you know, a lot of these people don't see a lot of converts because of where they were, where they were stationed. Um, and so that's a very tough thing, but these kids are not interpreting that as connecting to God of saying, well, God's got us here for a read us. So it's so it was more of like, how do I model or how does a parent model that healthy connection with God to their parents or to their children? How do they model that? And so that was something that I really loved finding out was that it really does go back to Deuteronomy 4 through 6. As you go by the way, as as you talk, as you see these memorials in your life, you've got to teach these things to your children because that's the things that they're gonna hold on to. Is okay, mom and dad say that you know things are tough right now, but I see them praying to God. I see them saying, I don't know what's gonna happen, but God's gonna get us through. It's it's those types of things that are gonna help influence the relationship that the child has with God.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Um I th when you told me about this, about your your dissertation, uh to me, it was fascinating that God seemed to call you into this specific world of missionaries very early in your life. Yes. But the thing that was to me the most helpful is how if you follow the research, this is the importance of research. If you follow the research, you can discuss instead of going like I want the I want the research to tell me what I need it to tell me so that I can prove some point that I already have. But if you're curious and you say, I really want the research to show me something I haven't seen before, what an interesting and in my mind, like a aha moment is that I I grew up in church and so had a lot of uh interaction with with both low uh like local community missionaries and and foreign missionaries. And of course, that is it. It's it's constant financial frustrations and and fear. I mean, you're itinerating constantly going back to the states for months kind of I mean, and from an outsider's view like begging churches for money on a on a constant basis. And if you don't get that money, you can't go back, you can't survive every summer. Is a uh man, I hope we make it, kids. And so and low conversions, um, I think conditions are very difficult. Yes, so kid, I would think kids are watching all this happen, even if the parents are pretty good at modeling, if they're going like, hey kids, it's gonna be all right, God's gonna provide. The kids are just seeing like we're suffering and it's God's fault.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:13

In a way, right? Like everywhere I look, there's a problem. It is so I I think that would that follow that research. Of course, the kids would be like, I don't know about this God guy, because he's making my parents, I love my parents, and my parents are struggling. So I anyway, I think that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Yeah, and it it was not what I was expecting at all. It's actually not what was shown in the research at all in the United States. So when they would look at kids um and their parents here in the United States, they none of this was showing. And so that's where I it really but again, if you go back to the Bible, you're like, oh, this completely makes sense. That was that was my aha moment. That this really has to go back to we've got a Read Deuteronomy and say, okay, Deuteronomy is what we've got to do. We have got to model this to the children and say, you know, hey, I don't know what's going to happen now, but I remember three months ago when we were struggling, God brought us through in this way. So we know that it may not happen the same way twice. Talk about C.S. Lewis, you know, he says to Lucy, it doesn't always happen the same way twice, but it's going to happen. It's going to happen in a different way. And it's going to teach me something else. And so if we if we bring this back to that, then we really do see that that relationship with God for that child can grow. It's just, you've got to show the struggle. The parents have have really, and this is what I've done in my own life because I know this research is that I have allowed my children to see my struggle. I have allowed them now developmentally appropriate, right? Because my kids are yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

But you're right. I am I am so for this. Uh I can't ever see my kids watch us fight. Well, how are they ever going to be able to figure out how to have conflict resolution if they don't watch you struggle and then figure things out as a couple? I don't want them to ever know that there are problems or go through conflict. I love that. This is what living on incline is about is how do I teach resilience grit? I think a lot of us, we of course we want our kids to have it better than we do, or we did when we were growing up, or whatever. But we we by protecting them to a place where they are so sheltered, we're we're not giving them what they need to be able to survive in a in a world that's that's very, very difficult and very tricky. So I love what you're saying right now. That is such a huge part of parenting is allowing our kids to be in on age appropriately, be in on some of the the pain and conflict that we're going through as a family.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

Yes. I mean, you know, for for example, right now, my my husband is is in Philadelphia. He's about ready to have major surgery. He's not gonna be here for three to three and a half weeks, maybe even longer, depending on recovery. And, you know, we we sat our kids down on Saturday. Um, once we kind of had more of a plan, we kind of knew what was gonna happen. We didn't want to tell them when we didn't know the the plan yet. Um sat them down and we're like, okay, this is what's gonna happen. This is how we're gonna handle this. And, you know, of course, our our eldest and our uh middle really understood and and cried, obviously, because they're worried about dad. Um, but we allowed that to happen. We allowed them to to describe their their their emotions, but also ask their questions. Okay, what does this mean? Is daddy gonna be okay? You know, so that was really helpful to them. And it was funny because I noticed, so we had this, it was probably about a 30-minute span where they they were really struggling. And then our our youngest, who's four, so she's still not like really understanding what's happening, she starts playing with something else. And I started to see the the eldest gravitate towards her that she was playing with. And then the middle one started to gravitate. And what I noticed there is that they felt comfortable, they felt safe enough to leave that conversation that they understood what was gonna happen. They got to a moat about what was gonna happen because we understand that this is tough, but they were okay and they didn't have any more questions at that point. Now, had they asked questions since daddy had had to leave, yes. And we still keep them up to date, again, age appropriate. But even, you know, they they see me tearing up from time to time, you know, about you know, daddy being gone or or what could happen. And it's funny because, you know, my middle one the other day, uh, she she sees me tearing up a little bit and she runs over and gives me this big hug and she goes, Mommy, it's gonna be okay. And I'm like, You're right, honey, I do know it's gonna be okay. We're we're gonna get through this. It's gonna be, it's God's gonna get us through, you know. So it's again bringing them back to that as well. But it really again allows them to understand, mommy and daddy are struggling, and this is gonna be hard. And but we also know what the end result is gonna be. And the end result is gonna be something better for us. So that might mean we're gonna struggle for a little bit and it's gonna be tough, and daddy's gonna be in a lot of pain, but our family is going to get through this together. We're gonna do this, and God's got it. Um, so it's been it's been interesting to see how uh this research has actually influenced me and influenced the way that I parent and the way that my husband parents, because we we see how important it is. Um, and and that was what what the whole point was was that we we would know and we would understand something new uh about about a teacher.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:53

I love that. And and I and thank you for your vulnerability. And I I think about what you're learning right now through what you're going through. And it's just there's so much. You you you have so much that you're trying to do all at the same time. Uh you work for some great people, but it's a it's just a lot right now. It is a lot, and it's heavy. What do you think you're learning right now? Thank you again for bringing it up. Your your husband's gonna be um laid up for three and a half weeks and won't be with you and the kids, and you still have to do your job and you still have to function. Um what do you learn? What do you what do you think you're learning right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

Uh, you know, it's funny because I learned something different in each one of these situations that God brings me. And first of all, you know, I I go back to, you know, my my Ebenezers, the things in my life where I saw God really um show up. And one of them was the dissertation actually, was graduating, and that's one of the the things that I go back to is that I saw God work in that area. Um, and you know, I'm going back to those things. But like I said, you know, it doesn't always happen the same way each time. And what I think I'm learning um in this one, and I know that this is probably what God's teaching me here, is that it's okay to ask for help. I'm I'm pretty independent when it comes to what I do and what I can do and what I like to do. Um, but in this situation, I can't be. I have to ask for help. So, you know, for example, today, um, you know, I had to ask my sister-in-law if she could watch my daughter uh while we did this interview because um our nanny is currently sick and she's usually the one taking care of my daughter. And so I had to reach out and I had to say, hey, I need help. Can you help me in this? And, you know, I've had to do this with with my colleagues. You know, I told them ahead of time, I said, I don't know what this is gonna look like. I'm gonna need you guys to to really step up and and probably take over some areas that I may be lacking in in the next couple of weeks, um, just because I have I have a lot more that I usually than I usually have to do. And you know what? It's been wonderful to see, you know, I went in yesterday into an area where, you know, I usually have applications I have to look at and have to do, and I wasn't even expecting it. And all the applications I'm supposed to do were already done. And it's just wonderful to see people not only see it and me ask for it, but then to them to do it without me saying, hey, can you do this today? Like they're already doing it, they're already helping me. Um and isn't that how the body of Christ is? Oftentimes we we say, hey, I'm I'm here to help you whenever you need it, but it's also asking for the help that's hard. And so, you know, I am learning that it's it's okay to ask for help, first of all, and second of all, that I am asking for help from the people that are trustworthy that I know will help me. And that to me, again, is something that God's really working on me is saying, Hey, you don't have to do this alone, and and I can't do this alone right now. I can't. But God's putting people specifically in my life that are like, not only did I say I would help you, but when you ask for it, I am helping you.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

So beautiful. And you don't know what you have in people until you're in a crisis, I think. You don't know how people love you and will respond to you until you get vulnerable enough to say, Man, I'm in trouble. I'm struggling, and you have a lot of gratitude. I can uh uh get an emotional thinking about these people. Say, hey, you could put flowers on my desk, but if you get my work done for me, I'll I would that's much more powerful is having those applications. Yes, yeah, and so it's just I feel a lot of gratitude and um kind of finishing up, why do you think it is so difficult for you specifically? Um what makes it difficult to ask for help?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:18

Uh, you know, I think I think that comes from a family culture. My my family of origin was was very much we we we do this, we take care of ourselves. Um, and so I think a lot of it is that way. But it's also, you know, I I think that the culture in general, when you're when you're um a woman who is also uh uh a working mom, that you feel like you gotta you gotta do it all. And uh usually, like I I I usually keep a pretty good balance, I think, of of you know, being mom and and being wife and being um, you know, uh worker. But I think in this regard, it's it's taking on I'm taking on my my husband's role for a little bit. And you know, obviously he's still gonna be on the phone and stuff like that, but he's not in the home. Um, you know, and I'm taking on other things that I don't normally have to. And so that's when when I have to say I don't have to do everything. And I think I'm coming to that point too, is that I don't have to do everything. I I try to do everything, but I don't it felt hard for you to say that right there.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

Like it it felt like it was difficult to get out.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

Yes, it is, it is, but I think that that's one of the things too, is like, um, you know, I've already asked, you know, a friend of mine, so so Jesse's surgery is is tomorrow. I don't know when you're when you're putting this out here, but it it's tomorrow. Um, and I've already asked my you know, my sister-in-law, can we be at your house in case something goes bad with the surgery? I want to be with family. And she's obviously like, yes, of course, you you need to be here. Um, and then, you know, um, Jesse is not allowed to move for 24 hours at all after his surgery. Um, so he can't call us after the surgery. We don't, we're not gonna be able to talk to him for a little bit. So I've already like put in place like being out with friends um the next day. So my kids aren't like ruminating, aren't thinking about, hey, we haven't talked to dad. Dad's not here, what's happening with the surgery, you know. Um, so I've already put those things in place, and it's really wonderful to see like my sister-in-law step in and say, Yes, we're gonna do dinner, we're gonna, you're gonna be here. And then my one of my best friends say, Yes, we're gonna go and we're gonna keep the kids busy for a couple of hours so that they're not thinking about it. And I think that that's what I need. What I need is for these people to step in. And uh, and God is is supplying that in that beautiful way in people that I have gained trust with. You know, I wouldn't ask this of everybody, but there are select few that I have said, I can feel safe if something bad happens with you. Um, I can feel safe if um if I get a phone call, you know, and I and I have to struggle, I know you're gonna, you know, take care of my kids at that point because I've got to handle whatever it is. Um and that's what I love about the people that God has put in my life. But those relationships took time. You know, I wouldn't have asked, you know, just somebody that I met a month ago to do this for me. Right. You know, um, one of my best friends, we've been friends for close to five years now. And and I I feel safe in that. Um, and so that's where I think that's different too, is that God's saying these people are safe for you to do this and and they are gonna be there for you and and they understand, and I don't have to explain it. I think that's the other thing. I don't have to explain what I need from them. They already know. So uh, you know, again, vulnerable, you know, this is this is this is where you find that safety, and you find that safety in therapeutic relationships, but you find that safety outside of therapeutic relationships as well. And and it's been a beautiful thing to see um my relationship with my sister-in-law grow to this point where I I feel that comfortability to ask her to do this, and I feel that comfortability of my best friend to do this. So it's a beautiful thing to have.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:20

Those are the across the board, those are the components to have close relationships, whether it's therapeutic or in our friendships, our family is vulnerability, openness, uh, the ability to ask for help, and and to put boundaries in place with people who aren't up for those kinds of things. Not everybody's gonna be safe, like you're saying, but um we have a lot of people to thank. I mean, obviously, your sister-in-law, we should be thanking her for you being on living on incline. Thank you. Thank her, please, for us, because you wouldn't be here without without her. And um, I don't know, you know, got God's outside of time. And so I wonder if we could just pray for Jesse. And I know pe maybe people are going like, well, this uh this thing already happened, but you know, God can figure all that stuff out. So I'm I'm with you real time, and I'd love to just pray for you as we we close our time together. We don't do it with all our guests, but um you you got some pretty big things to face, and the kids are gonna be going through some things. So is it okay if we pray for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Please do. I would love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:29

Yeah, Lord, we just lift up Jesse to you, and um we just you know his body from top to bottom. You created him, so we're just praying that this would be successful, wildly successful surgery that he's having. Um be with mercy, be with the kids as they are. They just have a lot of things that they're gonna not know for a while. And uh they would just feel that peace that passes all understanding that would guard their hearts and minds. And um and this would be a testimony of your goodness, of your faithfulness. And so again, just thank you that uh we can look back at those Ebenezers. We can remember how you've been faithful and that you're gonna do it again. And uh we love you. We're just grateful that we can come to you and we have hope because of you. And by your stripes we're healed. We believe that in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:22

Amen. Amen. Thank you very much. Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:25

Mercy, you are kind, generous, brilliant, and thank you. We're just grateful. I hope we can do this again and appreciate you and how you do model for so many people, um, not just how to be a professional, but just how to be vulnerable, how to how to be a good Christian woman in uh in this world that we live in that's full of not great examples. You're a great mom and uh just a phenomenal um colleague. Thank you so much uh for doing this, and we appreciate you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:05

Of course, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:07

Yeah, yeah. This is Living On Incline. Guys, please hit subscribe, like, share, comment, all that good stuff. And um, yeah, we appreciate it. Check out AACC, Light University, all the good stuff over there that Dr. Mercy's doing, all kinds of great trainings. Mental health coaching is huge for your churches, for your communities. And uh anyway, thank you. Thank you guys for hanging out with us, and we'll see you next time. Hey, thanks again for joining us on Living on Incline, sponsored by Recovery Life. Would you do us a favor and just hit that subscribe button, share with your friends? And again, we want to explore our full God-given potential and see what we are capable of. So, again, hit that subscribe button, and thank you so much for joining us on Living on Incline.